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Author Topic: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam  (Read 6571 times)

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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2016, 07:00:52 PM »
I sometimes wonder is this sort of discussion is taking place in a Muslim country, too, with some poor defender of Christianity and western values stating that that lot isn't any worse than we are.

My French teacher is a recent Afghan immigrant, and in service of practicing the language we've actually been talking a lot about politics and him telling stories about growing up in an Afghan village.

It's pretty surprising. He dresses like a Westerner, he's not religious, he seems as cultured and educated as any local WASP. He spent a few years in France before coming to North America, but that doesn't seem like enough to drastically change a person's core values.

He has no liking of the Taliban. He thinks his people have a rich history but the current generation are acting like animals. Today he showed us the space where a huge ancient monument to Buddha used to stand in the side of a mountain. It used to be a pilgrimage site for Buddhists from Korea, China and other eastern countries, but the Taliban blew it up about 15 years ago. He talked about how there's been a movement to rebuild it but just as vocal a movement to leave it as it is - not because they agree with the Taliban but because it stands as a testament to the danger and destruction of fanaticism. Its remains have become a part of the history of the country too.

He's not a city person either, he grew up barefoot running in the mountains and chasing goats.

I don't know what his opinion on Christianity is, but I should ask.
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Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2016, 07:13:54 PM »
Oh dear. I didn't say working people were bastards, it's just some of their attitudes. It's all so "Woe is me" and in order to get along you have to be moany like them about their positions. I don't get it. It's so negative. When I went to college in East London, it was nothing like that. People talked about being on benefits and having jobs, they didn't keep their benefits a secret, they didn't slag anyone off. They were like, "Oh yeh, I'm looking for a part time job in so and so, I can recommend you" etc, and the attitudes were totally relaxed, like Jamaicans. No whining or judgement whatsoever, they just accepted reality and were totally cool with it.
Ah OK :) Mind you, i wouldn't blame you for your prejudice (if that's what it was) any more than I blamne them for theirs. i meant what I said about all that. Just sticking my oar in, as usual  :LOL: That said, I don't often stick my oar in with racial rants (uless against whites) cos that's done to death already, and nastily , too.  Fact is, disadvantaged people use colourful languge against whatever group they (rightly or wrongly) believe to be oppressing them. So long as it stops at colourful language, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've seen some shocking stuff on disability ewebsites , now and then , mind (eg venonomous rants against buggys pushers  who take the wheelchair -users spaceon the bus ) that have thoroughly pissed me off  (fact is, as a parent, i know the system is to blame, not the buggy-pushers; and single parents as a group really don;'t need any more slagging off than they already get).  But you're nowhere near pressing my buttons there,  :LOL:

At the end of the day, I understand more about people than I make out, I just get bored with people not bothering to see my or other peoples' POV...and well, when those people have got very personal with me, it makes me hate them. I understand a lot of what drives people to hate is fear and lack of understanding, but I overestimate people to be more rational than the animalistic mindset we all share. Basically I want everybody to train themselves out of their natural state and become superior to all that animalistic behaviour. That idea is obviously BS, cos we're all just animals and nothing more, and becoming superior to that mindset, as much as I'd love it, so long as we all have emotions we're all still going to continue acting as animals. It's just a mindset I have, like peoples' various views on politics and religion...my will on others is to force them to question themselves and stop being so fucking hypocritical...and I see the irony in what I just said too.

I've also become lazy with writing in recent years, I used to appear more rational, but I also think life is too short to hold back what you think. Sometimes I provoke a bit too, cos being rational on its own is boring. It's like a standard I used to live up to and still sort of view it that way, but I also think fuck it and lots of people insist the other person takes the punishment in whatever dispute and makes the other person feel bad for it.

I realise saying exactly what I think and feel makes me appear a lot less rational and a bit crazier, but I think it makes me more interesting, and it's a release for me. I'm still very much all there and willing to reason. I'm less likely to reason if it's obvious, too. A lot of outcomes of debates and arguments are obvious, to me. It's all a waste of time, and arguing and debating, even if you get the truth out and it's very well written, nobody listens anyway and will try to detract from the point and so it's mostly pointless. It's mostly pointless anyway since nobody's making an impact that's gonna last forever. It's just another way of wasting time like any activity.
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Offline Walkie

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2016, 08:20:57 PM »
Actually, Walkie, Muslims are the new Jews, not the disabled. How many populist politicians do you see trying to ban the disabled from entering the country or accuse them of taking our jobs? Where are the disabled in the headlines? The sad fact is that the disabled just aren't that important.
Excuse me for "ignoring" some earlier posts. This one as a little bit meat to it , whilst remaining short and sweet enough that I can dissect the spurious assumptions, without writing an encyclopedia...I think.

Muslims are the new Jews..you could certyainly make a case for that, and I would take that case  seriously, if only you didn't assume that excludes other people from sharing that dubious honour.  One could also make a case for the same old Jews being the new Jews. I'm quite disturbed by that one, cos it's relatively neglected; and a rise in Islamist power surely entails a corresponding rise in Anti semitism? (Methinks the Germans have created a rather paraxoxical situation for themselves, by taking in horfdes of anti-Semites in their desperate efforts to avoid repeating previous  mistakes .  It's hilarious right now, but I'm not sure it will go on being quite so funny)

As for the case of disabled British people, this really hinges on prejudive against "benefits scroungers"  , as I said. Not many  people are prejudiced against the disabled as such , but the vast majority of us are only pretending to be disabled , so we can sponge off the State instead of working , don't you know? This logic, in turn,  justifies a savage series of" Welfare reforms" which put all disabled people in an increasingly difficult (to understate it)position. Hence the numerous suicides.

As in Nazi Germnany,m every body knows aone "deserving" genuinely disabled , just as everybody knew one "decent Jew" . Equally, as in Nazi Germany, everybody knows any number of "underserving" cases who serve to justify that harsh treatment (i actually said the bit in bold to someone the other day , and they said "oh! yes, and went off on a rant against  the evil scroungers. i had to call them to a halt, and say "i didn't mean that the undeserving are really underserving, ;it's just prejudice , that;'s all. But given that said person already knew about the prejudice I'd faced to that effect, I was shocked. That goes to show how very deeply that response is ingrained)

I know that anecdotal evidence isn't your favourite sort of evidence , odeon, and I understand the reasons. But anyone can haul out relevant stats, inasmuch as they're available.  I think my personal strength is my store of personal experience , and only I can draw on that. So I'll carry on doing so. I;'ve already asked if others will handle the stats side of it, and i'll be sursprised if there's nobody here who is willing to do that.

In the meantime maybe I should link you with DPAC ?  There is loads of info there, and you can surely expect it to have a predictable bias.  But it's considerably better than nothing, I should think. And, hanfg on,   you could equally expect my own selection to be biased, huh?

It's absurdly easy to dismiss disabled people as frauds. The standard model disabled person has a set of wheels underneath himn...and he'd better not be seen  getting out of that chair.  My ex had that problem, before he became permanently wheelchair bound (as the result of a  very slow, erratic,  degenerative  process, as usual) . We heard neighbours loudly opine "He ain't disabled. I've seen him wealking about"...meaning that they'd seen him hobble the 50 yard to his parked motability car, for instance" that was 20-odd years ago. Nowadays he would never have got  that motability vehicle. His ability to hobble 50 yards most days would have totally destroyed his clain for enhanced Mobility allowance. People like him mostly stay indoors now, because said ability isn't that useful without private transport. Not that losing their vehicles is the worst thing, that just goes to illustrate how unreasonable things have become. You don't even have to have what one would normally call a "hidden disability" for that disabilty to be effectively invisible .   People make facile judgments based on fleeting  impressions and disinterest.  Neurological disablity? - alcoholic/junkie (that's the one I've very often  had thrown at me. And when tyou're facing eviction due to having your bebnefits stopped, that's the thing that stings deepest:Not your utterly bleak future prospects, but the venom you hrear from your neighbours, and the prejudice you hear on the evening news) ,

So, OK, hopefuully that also demonstrates (if you're troubling to read) how banning people from entering a country or accusing them of taking jobs isn;'t the only form that prejudice takes?

Indeed I'd quibble with both of thosde as soloid evidence of prejudice at all. It all depends. i'bve bben part of a group (Agency wokers) who really were taking people's jobs. That statemebnt is not based on prejudice. You call surely call some of the treatment I received as "prejuduiced " though. Want to cast around for somthing to blame? Don't blame the statement. the statement is innocent.  You could credibly blame "Free movemebnt iof labour" as an inflammatory factor. Oh ! but hang on that's to talk about banning people from entering the country , isn't it? Which is racist , isn;t it?  Do you begin to se how discussing real uissues, and the search for real solutions is impeded by that thoughtless anti- discrimination  rhetoric?

There are all sorts of reasons for people wanting immigration control;s. Prejudice mif=ght sometimes be one of them , But you've just made a typical , spurious equation bwetween the two , as do too many people. One reason in Britain is shortage of housing, and too many people living on the streets already. It's pretty natural and logical that more people coming in will mean more people living on the street as well as more people losing their jobs. Never mind which specific groupp of people are getting// losing  the houses and the jobs. That's pretty much irrelevant.   And just because some people see some groups as having an advantage in that respect, that's no reason at all to slur the whole population as "prejudiced"  Nor to think that you know exactly what the prejudice is all about.

Oh! one last thing. You do know don't you that disabled people went into those death camps along with the Jews? Autistic people, even? we didn't matter much back then , either.  Indeed, we matter  so little that history barely ever pauses to recall that. you think not mattering will save us>?  :LOL:
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 08:24:59 PM by Walkie »

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2016, 03:19:39 AM »
PS. Thing is, I might not have put it that way, but I actually decided this worth a new thread because I took the statement I quoted as sincere.  I therefore anticipated a sincere argument, and thus far, I feel pretty damned disappointed , but I'm willing to think that A) perhaps I asked for it? and B) it's recoverable?

In what way do you think my reply was anything less than sincere?

I know...I know...because you are ideologically criticising with the intent to win and shoutdown rather than to actually understand the position of your opponent. You have already cast Walkie and me and others as anti-Muslim and as you as the only defender and so anything we say will be misrepresented in your ideologically skewed pea brain , into an anti-Muslim slur that you will defend. There is no sincerity in that.

Ah! thanks, IQ. OK , maybe you don't have a lot to add , but t least that looks like a genuine, just  saying-what-I -mean comment  :)

Hey, Al! Maybe we can just talk as if Odeon's not here? No ned to address him, if he's not playing ball, is there?

I posted in this thread yesterday and again today. But feel free to ignore me if you only want friendly nods instead of actual discussion.

You are not making "actual discussion" you are too busy "defending Muslims" here when no one is attacking Muslims. That is not a discussion because an actual discussion needs both party NOT to talk at cross purposes.  I know the thought of being a moral defender gives you a thrill up your leg BUT it is redundant in "actual discussions".
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 03:46:18 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2016, 03:39:29 AM »
Yes, I do have a better solution:

Let's not act as recruiters for ISIS and other nutters by polarising the situation to "us" and "them". It's what they want, it's how they grow in numbers. There was a time not too long ago when another group of people was similarly used by populist leaders; the whole thing ended with millions of people murdered.

That is not a solution. That is virtue signalling and you deflecting. Its you saying IF you do not do anything, you are "good" and are not creating an "us" and them and if you do something you are creating/perpetuating an "us" and "them".

Its a pretty weak way to say any action is tantamount to bigotry and only in doing nothing are you virtuous. Is pretty fucking weak. Answer the fucking question and stop deflecting.

See this is the Odeon I like. He is being a clown for our amusement.

"I stick up for Muslims being no one else does. I believe people have a right to their religious beliefs."

See it sounds very moral and virtuous but prod this moral grandstanding a bit and what happens? Want me to try?

Me: "Okay, sure Odeon, but who on here is questioning anyone's right to have their own religious beliefs or railing on Muslims or blaming the actions of a few on all Muslims?"

Odeon: "YOU have! You clearly have. You are a bigot and have done exactly that. You always say terrible things about Muslims and support Trump"

Me: "Actually I have not done any of that and only a drooling idiot could draw that conclusion. I have at every conceivable point underlined the fact that Muslim radical extremists are very definitely a threat and not all Muslims are Muslim radical extremists, but that it is difficult to identify any radical Muslim extremists coming into a country without identification OR from failed states where there is no viable infrastructure or database to check any identification that they may produce for inspection. In Australia, this means we do not accept these people into our waters. America seems to similarly support a freeze on such people that cannot be identified for whatever threat that they may bring with them as a result of poor identification."

Odeon: "That is a bigoted position. You are critical of them because of their religion."

Me: "No, because the "them" in your statement is false. If the "them" is radical Muslim extremists, then I am concerned with their rabid ideology and fanaticism NOT their religion, and if "them" is your ordinary run of the mill moderate Muslim, I have no issue and would wish them very well. In either case the ONLY tie between them is that the Islamic faith is shared by both groups and that all the radical Muslim extremists are found in the larger Muslim demographic. The only quandary is how to accurately differentiate good from bad. This is a vetting problem and thus a border and national security problem"

Odeon: "THAT'S RACIST!!!"

Me: "No. Furthermore, APART from - let in people you cannot vet because hopefully most will be okay and any damage the ones that are not okay will do hopefully will be minor - what is your suggestion"

Odeon: "Well sure, you cannot vet everyone and maybe some will be bad but we can't discriminate..."

Me: "So that IS your big solution?"

Odeon: "I am more moral than you. You are a bigot"

Me: " ...and you fool and ideologically skewed to a point that reason does not even see sunlight"

Odeon: "Bigot!!!"  :bigcry:

.There and without us having to even thrash it out. The irony is he thinks he is a better person for this lack of critical reasoning and believes it make him a moral defender of the defenceless. Its a healthy step to either ignorance or insanity. I am not sure which. Ideological blinkers are a strange thing to behold.

Can't be arsed too read your effort but I'm sure it is a fine post. I'm betting there are a few hypotheticals, all of them failed, an attack or two on my person, and some thinly veiled bigotry.

Next.

Nope.

Interesting though that after the big fuss you made about how not reading someone's posts but posting anyhow was intellectually dishonest, here you are doing exactly that. In which way are you NOT a hypocrite.

The answer of course is that you are....unless you are reading when you respond, in which case you are a liar. Let's see if you read anything of mine,  after this to counter this narrative

Not reading Al's posts, knowing his views already, but please do address my points. Or, for that matter, my debating style. Cos right now I'm thinking that you're big on words but light on substance, Walkie. What is wrong with disagreeing with your post and your basic premise?

No, Walkie is just being rational and you are very light on substance. This is your substance.

"The conversation of whether to do anything that impacts Muslims collectively on the basis of trying to protect a larger community from very dangerous hidden radicalised elements within that group cannot happen. This includes the inability of National security and Border Control being unable to turn away Muslims who cannot identify themselves and thus may be an increased risk of being an unidentified risk. It is literally unlocking your doors and inviting all strangers through, knowing most will not seek you harm because most people are good people AND being willing to risk the chance of the danger from the indecent people within those groups of strangers"

None of us believe that ALL Muslims or MOST Muslims are bad. No one has said this. You are defending against positions we do not hold. We DO believe that there needs to be a conversation about this to explore options and your reaction is "NO CONVERSATION. Conversation that does not meekly accept everyone should be let into any country with or without proper identification and without scrutiny or profiling because doing so is bigotry"

That is petulant and moronic.

Having and discussing and looking at multiple viewpoints is NOT bigoted.

*nod to Al*

yep, you're making prety fair points about Odeon's debating style, Al

I believe he can be bigger than that, when he chooses.  But it looks like I picked the wrong subject, if I want that effect :(

Odeon of old was a lot better than that. I obviously am at the point with him that I have come to expect a level of dishonesty from him.

This one was short and so this one I read. I shouldn't have bothered. You have nothing to contribute.

You do, lies, hypocrisy, strawmen, snark, and smug condescension for those who seem to be outpacing you in the conversation. You seem to keep returning to redundant talking points rather than actually meet them on the same playing field. Its embarrassing.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Walkie

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2016, 08:57:15 AM »
Had to plus Al for
A) noticing that I'm struggling to keep up, and answering some snarks on my behalf (  pretty well too!)
B) well, if this is a point-scoring exercise instead of a discussion, Al's actually scoring way  more points in terms cogent, honest, to the-the-point. You can only reallty fault him on grammar and style, as usual (which is not exactly fair)
 
So , that's very much appreciated , Al :)

As for Odeon, seems to be that his basic position is stated elsewhere on this board, and comprises a number of  complaints about how intensely tedious his job is  just lately (had to sypathise there) culminating in:

Thinking I have less tolerance for idiots today than I did yesterday.

Bearing all  that in mind , I 've resisted reacting  to his snarks ...ummm, more often than not, that is.  But what the heck, we're human too,  :hitler:

It's a futile exercise, mind. Ya can;'t discuss things with somebody with somebody who's gonna lose patience with you 23.805 times per day (Post stats)  :LOL:

Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2016, 11:19:23 AM »
Has anyone uttered a word why Muslims might be 'prejudiced' against non-Muslims?  Does anyone actually think they hate us 'becozzz werrr freeee'?  We've been destroying the Middle East for decades, blocking democracy and supporting brutal regimes as well as stealing their resources and blowing them up.  But when we do it, we don't call it terrorism.  Does anyone actually believe the narrative that we went into Afghanistan to 'liberate women', to find Bin Laden and knock out Al Qaeda and the Taliban?  When the US supported Jihadists in the 80's that threw acid into women's faces, they never charged Bin Laden with 9/11 and the US supports Al Qaeda.  Or went into Iraq because Saddam had connections with Al Qaeda, and because he was a horrible person and because we love democracy so much?  When this was all a lie spewed out from Israeli intelligence, and we supported Saddam through his worst crimes.   

Did anyone think it would be a good idea to flood the West with people from the Middle East while we destroyed the Middle East?

The establishment have done this intentionally, they're not that stupid.  They want people to support their wars against the Muslim world and support Israel.   

What a shame. I found myself agreeing with some of your post until you sawed off the branch you were sitting on.

I don't care whether you agree with me or not.  Obviously it's going to be difficult for you to agree with stuff that goes over your head. 
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry:

Offline Jack

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2016, 11:25:37 AM »
Has anyone uttered a word why Muslims might be 'prejudiced' against non-Muslims?  Does anyone actually think they hate us 'becozzz werrr freeee'?  We've been destroying the Middle East for decades, blocking democracy and supporting brutal regimes as well as stealing their resources and blowing them up.  But when we do it, we don't call it terrorism.  Does anyone actually believe the narrative that we went into Afghanistan to 'liberate women', to find Bin Laden and knock out Al Qaeda and the Taliban?  When the US supported Jihadists in the 80's that threw acid into women's faces, they never charged Bin Laden with 9/11 and the US supports Al Qaeda.  Or went into Iraq because Saddam had connections with Al Qaeda, and because he was a horrible person and because we love democracy so much?  When this was all a lie spewed out from Israeli intelligence, and we supported Saddam through his worst crimes.   

Did anyone think it would be a good idea to flood the West with people from the Middle East while we destroyed the Middle East?

The establishment have done this intentionally, they're not that stupid.  They want people to support their wars against the Muslim world and support Israel.   

What a shame. I found myself agreeing with some of your post until you sawed off the branch you were sitting on.

I don't care whether you agree with me or not.  Obviously it's going to be difficult for you to agree with stuff that goes over your head.
Personally found it to be one of your best posts.

Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2016, 11:31:07 AM »
Walkie- Yes, we let the wars in the Middle East happen, only the people can stop this all.  And the establishment have played tricks on the people.  It is true though that people ought to wise up and see through the propaganda. 

Muslims have it the worst at the moment.  Millions of people across the Middle East and Africa have been killed because of our war on Islam.  Disabled people have been the most persecuted people throughout history, they were being persecuted long before Judaism was established.  Jews are generally disliked because of their actions, well as a whole because of the actions of some or many of them.  Disabled people were put in death camps by the Nazis and there's evidence that there was an extermination policy against the disabled under Nazi rule.
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry:

Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2016, 11:32:17 AM »
Has anyone uttered a word why Muslims might be 'prejudiced' against non-Muslims?  Does anyone actually think they hate us 'becozzz werrr freeee'?  We've been destroying the Middle East for decades, blocking democracy and supporting brutal regimes as well as stealing their resources and blowing them up.  But when we do it, we don't call it terrorism.  Does anyone actually believe the narrative that we went into Afghanistan to 'liberate women', to find Bin Laden and knock out Al Qaeda and the Taliban?  When the US supported Jihadists in the 80's that threw acid into women's faces, they never charged Bin Laden with 9/11 and the US supports Al Qaeda.  Or went into Iraq because Saddam had connections with Al Qaeda, and because he was a horrible person and because we love democracy so much?  When this was all a lie spewed out from Israeli intelligence, and we supported Saddam through his worst crimes.   

Did anyone think it would be a good idea to flood the West with people from the Middle East while we destroyed the Middle East?

The establishment have done this intentionally, they're not that stupid.  They want people to support their wars against the Muslim world and support Israel.   

What a shame. I found myself agreeing with some of your post until you sawed off the branch you were sitting on.

I don't care whether you agree with me or not.  Obviously it's going to be difficult for you to agree with stuff that goes over your head.
Personally found it to be one of your best posts.

 :hug:
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry:

Offline Jack

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2016, 11:33:13 AM »
Thanks. Now stop touching me.

Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2016, 11:36:56 AM »
Thanks. Now stop touching me.

  Awwww so fiesty!  :stick:  :laugh:
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Offline Jack

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2016, 11:37:43 AM »

Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2016, 11:44:24 AM »
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry:

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2016, 12:31:50 PM »
I sometimes wonder is this sort of discussion is taking place in a Muslim country, too, with some poor defender of Christianity and western values stating that that lot isn't any worse than we are.

My French teacher is a recent Afghan immigrant, and in service of practicing the language we've actually been talking a lot about politics and him telling stories about growing up in an Afghan village.

It's pretty surprising. He dresses like a Westerner, he's not religious, he seems as cultured and educated as any local WASP. He spent a few years in France before coming to North America, but that doesn't seem like enough to drastically change a person's core values.

He has no liking of the Taliban. He thinks his people have a rich history but the current generation are acting like animals. Today he showed us the space where a huge ancient monument to Buddha used to stand in the side of a mountain. It used to be a pilgrimage site for Buddhists from Korea, China and other eastern countries, but the Taliban blew it up about 15 years ago. He talked about how there's been a movement to rebuild it but just as vocal a movement to leave it as it is - not because they agree with the Taliban but because it stands as a testament to the danger and destruction of fanaticism. Its remains have become a part of the history of the country too.

He's not a city person either, he grew up barefoot running in the mountains and chasing goats.

I don't know what his opinion on Christianity is, but I should ask.

You should ask and be ready for a surprise.

Way back in 2001 we barely had decent dial-up internet around here, but I remember watching that destruction and thinking that those assholes had done something inhuman to the entire planet.

It seemed like a small thing to most everyone, but I asked what if some band of idiots blew up the London Bridge or the Eiffel Tower or the Statue Of Liberty or the Sistine Chapel? Everyone was all about wtf are you even talking about, some goat fuckers blew up a rock, so what!?!

They did not realize the importance of an icon like that to a large sector of people in that part of the world, nor could I make them care.

I had already decided that most of my world was populated by idiotic morons, but this bit of non-chalantness was very telling to me.

Our twin towers had not yet been hit at that time.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 12:35:10 PM by DirtDawg »
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.