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Author Topic: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam  (Read 6566 times)

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Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2016, 03:20:42 PM »
Has anyone uttered a word why Muslims might be 'prejudiced' against non-Muslims?  Does anyone actually think they hate us 'becozzz werrr freeee'?  We've been destroying the Middle East for decades, blocking democracy and supporting brutal regimes as well as stealing their resources and blowing them up.  But when we do it, we don't call it terrorism.  Does anyone actually believe the narrative that we went into Afghanistan to 'liberate women', to find Bin Laden and knock out Al Qaeda and the Taliban?  When the US supported Jihadists in the 80's that threw acid into women's faces, they never charged Bin Laden with 9/11 and the US supports Al Qaeda.  Or went into Iraq because Saddam had connections with Al Qaeda, and because he was a horrible person and because we love democracy so much?  When this was all a lie spewed out from Israeli intelligence, and we supported Saddam through his worst crimes.   

Did anyone think it would be a good idea to flood the West with people from the Middle East while we destroyed the Middle East?

The establishment have done this intentionally, they're not that stupid.  They want people to support their wars against the Muslim world and support Israel.     
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Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2016, 03:38:40 PM »
Walkie: I have not read Graelwyn's posts...in all honesty I don't want to, not because I'm not supportive, but reading that sort of thing makes me so upset and angry...it's why I don't watch the news. I can't take it, it's so depressing and makes me feel down. I totally get that the media is behind it. What makes it worse is that people who work, especially poor people, love their "Oh woe is me, I have to work so hard while these bastards leech off me, I'm such a better and decent moral person". i.e. putting others down to boost themselves, arseholes.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2016, 04:56:04 PM »
Ok It will prolly take me some considerable time to work through all my responses to your argument , Odeon (cos that's how my mind works with this sort of thing-and just about anything else indeed-  slowly and carefully and haltingly- trying to plot all the trees in relation to the wood- then equally slowly trying to figure out how best to express it)

Some of your observations are inarguable. It's more a case of your  map of the forest missing some highly signifant trees; though I'm sure you'd think the same of mine.  At least you said enough this time to make me feel I could learn something (but nothing to suggest that you're gonna bring me round to agreeing with your conclusions).

Let's start with something simple and trivial  (just to clear it out of the way, I hope)



I tell you what is a stawman, though:

Quote
Prejudice against Muslims is not the problem. Muslim prejudice against everybody else is the problem.


If you repeatedly bang on about people's prjudice againsst Muslims (which you do, to the best of my understanding) , it's not a strawman to explicitly contradict that. A strawman argument, on my side,  would falsely put words into your mouth, wouldn't it?   

I'm a bit perplexed as to what could be happening here?   I don't think you're quite disingenouus enough to falsely accuse me of using strawmen; a sort of meta strawman , or mega strawman, or Babooshka-freaking-doll -of-strawmen.  But I don't know. The only other explanation would seem to be that we have different conceptions of what prejudice means, or something like that?

So let's try:

So you've not been saying that prejudice against Muslims is a problem? Can you please explain the difference between what you have been saying and my phrasing of it?

Or alternatively: are we having actually having a  serious discussion here, and saying what we mean, or are we just scoring points, any which way we can?

If it's the latter, i think i'll bow out, because I actually am very serious, very concerned about this subject, and i don't really want to arse around playing clever little games with it, not even here.

Back to you on that.

A strawman is something that is not founded in backed-up numbers or anything verifiable--it's just an opinion, really--but what you nevertheless state as a prerequisite for the rest of your argument. Because A, B follows, and all that, when A is not in any way verified.

And of course the prejudice against Muslims is a problem. It's a huge problem because it enables the likes of Trump and it does more to recruit cannon fodder to ISIS than anything else they can do. And that's a strawman, by the way, because I can't prove it, but it serves well to increase the gap between "us" and "them". The westerners are all against us, look at what they are doing to us in the US, join us.

But unless you backed it up and I somehow missed it entirely, this is a strawman:

Quote
Prejudice against Muslims is not the problem. Muslim prejudice against everybody else is the problem.

"Muslim prejudice against everybody."

How do you know? Where is your proof?

Make no mistake here, Walkie. This is not a game, this is not not me arsing around playing clever games. It is me defending Islam any way I know how, though, because nobody else is, here, yet they are no worse than the others. They are not better, either, but that's just part of the human condition. There are assholes in every religion and every culture.

I sometimes wonder is this sort of discussion is taking place in a Muslim country, too, with some poor defender of Christianity and western values stating that that lot isn't any worse than we are.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2016, 05:02:03 PM »
Yes, I do have a better solution:

Let's not act as recruiters for ISIS and other nutters by polarising the situation to "us" and "them". It's what they want, it's how they grow in numbers. There was a time not too long ago when another group of people was similarly used by populist leaders; the whole thing ended with millions of people murdered.

That is not a solution. That is virtue signalling and you deflecting. Its you saying IF you do not do anything, you are "good" and are not creating an "us" and them and if you do something you are creating/perpetuating an "us" and "them".

Its a pretty weak way to say any action is tantamount to bigotry and only in doing nothing are you virtuous. Is pretty fucking weak. Answer the fucking question and stop deflecting.

See this is the Odeon I like. He is being a clown for our amusement.

"I stick up for Muslims being no one else does. I believe people have a right to their religious beliefs."

See it sounds very moral and virtuous but prod this moral grandstanding a bit and what happens? Want me to try?

Me: "Okay, sure Odeon, but who on here is questioning anyone's right to have their own religious beliefs or railing on Muslims or blaming the actions of a few on all Muslims?"

Odeon: "YOU have! You clearly have. You are a bigot and have done exactly that. You always say terrible things about Muslims and support Trump"

Me: "Actually I have not done any of that and only a drooling idiot could draw that conclusion. I have at every conceivable point underlined the fact that Muslim radical extremists are very definitely a threat and not all Muslims are Muslim radical extremists, but that it is difficult to identify any radical Muslim extremists coming into a country without identification OR from failed states where there is no viable infrastructure or database to check any identification that they may produce for inspection. In Australia, this means we do not accept these people into our waters. America seems to similarly support a freeze on such people that cannot be identified for whatever threat that they may bring with them as a result of poor identification."

Odeon: "That is a bigoted position. You are critical of them because of their religion."

Me: "No, because the "them" in your statement is false. If the "them" is radical Muslim extremists, then I am concerned with their rabid ideology and fanaticism NOT their religion, and if "them" is your ordinary run of the mill moderate Muslim, I have no issue and would wish them very well. In either case the ONLY tie between them is that the Islamic faith is shared by both groups and that all the radical Muslim extremists are found in the larger Muslim demographic. The only quandary is how to accurately differentiate good from bad. This is a vetting problem and thus a border and national security problem"

Odeon: "THAT'S RACIST!!!"

Me: "No. Furthermore, APART from - let in people you cannot vet because hopefully most will be okay and any damage the ones that are not okay will do hopefully will be minor - what is your suggestion"

Odeon: "Well sure, you cannot vet everyone and maybe some will be bad but we can't discriminate..."

Me: "So that IS your big solution?"

Odeon: "I am more moral than you. You are a bigot"

Me: " ...and you fool and ideologically skewed to a point that reason does not even see sunlight"

Odeon: "Bigot!!!"  :bigcry:

.There and without us having to even thrash it out. The irony is he thinks he is a better person for this lack of critical reasoning and believes it make him a moral defender of the defenceless. Its a healthy step to either ignorance or insanity. I am not sure which. Ideological blinkers are a strange thing to behold.

Can't be arsed too read your effort but I'm sure it is a fine post. I'm betting there are a few hypotheticals, all of them failed, an attack or two on my person, and some thinly veiled bigotry.

Next.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2016, 05:02:59 PM »
PS. Thing is, I might not have put it that way, but I actually decided this worth a new thread because I took the statement I quoted as sincere.  I therefore anticipated a sincere argument, and thus far, I feel pretty damned disappointed , but I'm willing to think that A) perhaps I asked for it? and B) it's recoverable?

In what way do you think my reply was anything less than sincere?
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2016, 05:06:38 PM »
*nod to Al*

yep, you're making pretty fair points about Odeon's debating style, Al

I believe he can be bigger than that, when he chooses.  But it looks like I picked the wrong subject, if I want that effect :(

Not reading Al's posts, knowing his views already, but please do address my points. Or, for that matter, my debating style. Cos right now I'm thinking that you're big on words but light on substance, Walkie. What is wrong with disagreeing with your post and your basic premise?
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 05:08:38 PM »
*nod to Al*

yep, you're making prety fair points about Odeon's debating style, Al

I believe he can be bigger than that, when he chooses.  But it looks like I picked the wrong subject, if I want that effect :(

Odeon of old was a lot better than that. I obviously am at the point with him that I have come to expect a level of dishonesty from him.

This one was short and so this one I read. I shouldn't have bothered. You have nothing to contribute.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 05:12:44 PM »
Ah! thanks, IQ. OK , maybe you don't have a lot to add , but t least that looks like a genuine, just  saying-what-I -mean comment  :)

Hey, Al! Maybe we can just talk as if Odeon's not here? No ned to address him, if he's not playing ball, is there?

I posted in this thread yesterday and again today. But feel free to ignore me if you only want friendly nods instead of actual discussion.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 05:18:38 PM »
Has anyone uttered a word why Muslims might be 'prejudiced' against non-Muslims?  Does anyone actually think they hate us 'becozzz werrr freeee'?  We've been destroying the Middle East for decades, blocking democracy and supporting brutal regimes as well as stealing their resources and blowing them up.  But when we do it, we don't call it terrorism.  Does anyone actually believe the narrative that we went into Afghanistan to 'liberate women', to find Bin Laden and knock out Al Qaeda and the Taliban?  When the US supported Jihadists in the 80's that threw acid into women's faces, they never charged Bin Laden with 9/11 and the US supports Al Qaeda.  Or went into Iraq because Saddam had connections with Al Qaeda, and because he was a horrible person and because we love democracy so much?  When this was all a lie spewed out from Israeli intelligence, and we supported Saddam through his worst crimes.   

Did anyone think it would be a good idea to flood the West with people from the Middle East while we destroyed the Middle East?

The establishment have done this intentionally, they're not that stupid.  They want people to support their wars against the Muslim world and support Israel.   

What a shame. I found myself agreeing with some of your post until you sawed off the branch you were sitting on.
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Offline Walkie

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 05:19:45 PM »
You have  curious sense of "us and them" Benji

Has anyone uttered a word why Muslims might be 'prejudiced' against non-Muslims?  Does anyone actually think they hate us 'becozzz werrr freeee'?  We've been destroying the Middle East for decades, blocking democracy and supporting brutal regimes as well as stealing their resources and blowing them up.  But when we do it, we don't call it terrorism.  Does anyone actually believe the narrative that we went into Afghanistan to 'liberate women', to find Bin Laden and knock out Al Qaeda and the Taliban?  When the US supported Jihadists in the 80's that threw acid into women's faces, they never charged Bin Laden with 9/11 and the US supports Al Qaeda.  Or went into Iraq because Saddam had connections with Al Qaeda, and because he was a horrible person and because we love democracy so much?  When this was all a lie spewed out from Israeli intelligence, and we supported Saddam through his worst crimes.   

Did anyone think it would be a good idea to flood the West with people from the Middle East while we destroyed the Middle East?

I added the bold, to show how  you clearly identify yourself as one of the people who did these things.

But then you say

Quote
The establishment have done this intentionally, they're not that stupid. They want people to support their wars against the Muslim world and support Israel.
   

And now suddenly you are dissociating yourself from the people who did these things. It wasn't you, it was "the establishment",

I'm not really specifically picking on you here, Benji. The way yopu're talking is utterly typical of the way we English people tallk about things like this.  We don't feel we ever got a say regarding Britain's role in the Middle East, There have been no refererundums, Protersts have simply been ignored. Amnd , given a choice between one rifght -wing party and another,  a lot of British people don;t even feel they get a vote worth squat.   And you can add to that the growing feeling that politicians are  relatively powerless any way: policies  are tailored to suit the interests of Big industry and the super Rich.

So, on the one hand , we quite naturally share in the burden of guilt for out Government's actions, whilst , on the other hand feling that it really has nothing to do with us; we're just another bunch pawns in whatever kind of power-game is going on. 

I don't claim to know exactly who the powers-that-be really are, nor exactly what their agenda really is, besides making the entirely logical assumption that wealth is a very strong factor in defining both .   We all know that "wealth is power" don't we?  And for myself, i think we're dangerously close to a situation where wealth is only power left in the world.

Any rehetoric that basically serves to blames the poor and pwerless is at best a red herring, and at worst an attempt to  dehumanise some  population groups, and thus justify the next batch of atrocities .

So, I think that insofar as we identify we with the poor and powerless of the world, we need to adopt a mindset and rhetoric that reflects that; a  quite different concept of "us and them" than the usual bollocks. Such a concept would put the average poor white Brit in the same group as the average poor Muslim.  Just that initself, might ease some of the prejudice and mutual antagonism, of course. But the main point of it would be to clarify our thinking, and sharpen our analysis.

As the SJWs never tire of pointing out, our habits of language can actually have a profound affect upon our thinking   . Let's not let our loathing for the SJws blind us to the truths they sometimnes get hold of. We ned to think about how the language we use, and the language that the press and politicians use m encapsulates and deepens our prejudices...and sometimes our guilt and self-loathing too. Not with an agenda of blaming ourselves, but rather of mentally liberating ourselves., because it's pointless and silly, and often destructive,  joining in the blame game.

Personally I think the assumption that the vast majority of people are innocent is both more accurate and more powerful. We need to start using language in a way that reflects that.

Also, I really I do believe there's a problem with Islam. The rhetoric of Islam is being used to desttructive purposes.  But every time I (or anybody else ) says something like that , we;re jumped on , and( metaphorically) beaten up, bound and gagged by a bunch of howling SJWs , all repeating the mantra that "You casn't blame Muslim peope for Muslim atrocities". Not that I ever, actually have actually blamed the Muslim people.  iIve blamed "Islam" (hypothetically) at most.    But that response  seems to have become an universally accepted straw man.  One that people actually believe in.

Clearly , i also believe that our more familiar Western rhetoric is being used to destructive purposes. It's relatively OK to voice that idea, (cos you're supposedly blaming the "white man" now. Valid target) until you actually challenge  the more destructive and divisive  aspects , eg as above.

I don't believe we can usefully seperate out the Islam problem from these other issues.

 And I do believe it's silly (and again destructive) to attack other people on the grounds that they're "prejudiced" . All humabn beings are prejudiced, in obe way or another. if you make "prejudice " itself  into  sin, then you only discourage the kind of self-reflection that enables people to identify, and escape  their prejudices .  There's a very real prejudice against poor whites , these dauys , that's every bit as destructive, potentially, asd all the usual prejudices that the SJWs bang on about. Actually, it's all the more dangeropus at present for rarely being identified as "prejudice" but rather largely accepted as fact.

I said on one thread that "disabled people are the new Jews" in Britain and that was instantly disnmissed as nonsense. I could have gone on to present some really convincing and really shocking evidence to the effect that disabled people  are the victims of a systematic prop[aganda campaig n on the part of the British Giovernmeb=nt and Britaish Media to dehumanise benefits claimants , followed by a series of human rights abuses that has actually led to multiple deaths ...but my usual  problems with being a disabled spazz intervened  there so I never followed up (maybe somebody else here will collate and present that evidence? cos I don't trust myself to ever get around to it at that rate)

Still, that was a bit of hyperbole. We;re clearly not the only jews, not by a long chalk, and they haven't built the death camps yet (probably no ned, we concveniently suicide, usually) but it's really not hard to justify to justify that that statement,to peoplwe who are willing to entertain that notion (which is not that many, as yet, admittedly). The main problem is that most disabled people in Britain are white native Brits , of course , which means of course we're not the victims of prejudie,  we're the evil disseminators of prejudice instead. No, no, no, no that idea makes us doubly the victims of prejudice in reality. Heck, it really is time to change the record, change the dialogue

*gets down off soapbox*

-Walkie
 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 05:23:23 PM by Walkie »

Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 05:23:30 PM »
Ahhh. :heart: If nothing will bring people together, you can always rely on politics.

I don't want my friend to die. :'( He works alongside MPs. I don't want him to die. :'(
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Offline odeon

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 05:57:27 PM »
Actually, Walkie, Muslims are the new Jews, not the disabled. How many populist politicians do you see trying to ban the disabled from entering the country or accuse them of taking our jobs? Where are the disabled in the headlines? The sad fact is that the disabled just aren't that important.
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Offline Walkie

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2016, 06:09:41 PM »
Walkie: I have not read Graelwyn's posts...in all honesty I don't want to, not because I'm not supportive, but reading that sort of thing makes me so upset and angry...it's why I don't watch the news. I can't take it, it's so depressing and makes me feel down. I totally get that the media is behind it. What makes it worse is that people who work, especially poor people, love their "Oh woe is me, I have to work so hard while these bastards leech off me, I'm such a better and decent moral person". i.e. putting others down to boost themselves, arseholes.

I understand your feelings, but don't think they're actually arseholes , just the usual variety of weak, more-or-less-well-intentioned human beings, caught up in the vice of impossible tensions. They are shit-scared of becoming you; and putting you down is , amongst other things, one way of convincing themselves that the worst won't happen to them.

I'm speaking as somebody as somebody who's worked alongside such people , I hasten to add, in the highly uncomfortable position of a member of the hated Agency Staff.  (I seem to have been most of the people that this Society is prejudiced against by turns *sigh*)  If you're a white English agency worker, then the regular staff have no inhibition at all against telling you exactly what they think of you. You are stealing their work, undermining their wages, and undermining their (nigh-on-non-exiostent) job security. A significant proportion of them are going to hate you for that. And It really is true, so you fel like a "scab" doing that sort of work; but, inxcreasingly, that's the only sort of work available. They'd also hate you (though not quite so much) if you didn't have a job at all.

I got along pretty well with most of them, maybe because I don't let such shit  get on top of me and  deform me; and i can and do sympathise  with their position, as well as with my own. When one  line-manager( looking at  at my sketches of workmates) opined that I was "wasted here" my instantaneous, heartfelt  response was "We're all wasted here" -prompting an instant  murmer of agreement from the rest   :LOL:

Nobody, but nobody is  having a fun time. Somehow we need to  ovecome the effectys of the propaganda that divides the British working class against itself.   Much more easily said than done, but I don't want to deepen it by labelling working people as bastards.

Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2016, 06:23:09 PM »
Oh dear. I didn't say working people were bastards, it's just some of their attitudes. It's all so "Woe is me" and in order to get along you have to be moany like them about their positions. I don't get it. It's so negative. When I went to college in East London, it was nothing like that. People talked about being on benefits and having jobs, they didn't keep their benefits a secret, they didn't slag anyone off. They were like, "Oh yeh, I'm looking for a part time job in so and so, I can recommend you" etc, and the attitudes were totally relaxed, like Jamaicans. No whining or judgement whatsoever, they just accepted reality and were totally cool with it.
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Offline Walkie

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Re: Let's Have Another Argument about Islam
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2016, 06:48:41 PM »
Oh dear. I didn't say working people were bastards, it's just some of their attitudes. It's all so "Woe is me" and in order to get along you have to be moany like them about their positions. I don't get it. It's so negative. When I went to college in East London, it was nothing like that. People talked about being on benefits and having jobs, they didn't keep their benefits a secret, they didn't slag anyone off. They were like, "Oh yeh, I'm looking for a part time job in so and so, I can recommend you" etc, and the attitudes were totally relaxed, like Jamaicans. No whining or judgement whatsoever, they just accepted reality and were totally cool with it.
Ah OK :) Mind you, i wouldn't blame you for your prejudice (if that's what it was) any more than I blamne them for theirs. i meant what I said about all that. Just sticking my oar in, as usual  :LOL: That said, I don't often stick my oar in with racial rants (uless against whites) cos that's done to death already, and nastily , too.  Fact is, disadvantaged people use colourful languge against whatever group they (rightly or wrongly) believe to be oppressing them. So long as it stops at colourful language, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've seen some shocking stuff on disability ewebsites , now and then , mind (eg venonomous rants against buggys pushers  who take the wheelchair -users spaceon the bus ) that have thoroughly pissed me off  (fact is, as a parent, i know the system is to blame, not the buggy-pushers; and single parents as a group really don;'t need any more slagging off than they already get).  But you're nowhere near pressing my buttons there,  :LOL:
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 06:50:39 PM by Walkie »