INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: El on March 27, 2013, 05:36:35 AM
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In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job, and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a disability check from the government.
The federal government spends more money each year on cash payments for disabled former workers than it spends on food stamps and welfare combined. Yet people relying on disability payments are often overlooked in discussions of the social safety net. People on federal disability do not work. Yet because they are not technically part of the labor force, they are not counted among the unemployed.
In other words, people on disability don't show up in any of the places we usually look to see how the economy is doing. But the story of these programs -- who goes on them, and why, and what happens after that -- is, to a large extent, the story of the U.S. economy. It's the story not only of an aging workforce, but also of a hidden, increasingly expensive safety net.
For the past six months, I've been reporting on the growth of federal disability programs. I've been trying to understand what disability means for American workers, and, more broadly, what it means for poor people in America nearly 20 years after we ended welfare as we knew it. Here's what I found.
One In Four
Credit: Brinson Banks for NPR
Hale County, Alabama
In Hale County, Alabama, 1 in 4 working-age adults is on disability. On the day government checks come in every month, banks stay open late, Main Street fills up with cars, and anybody looking to unload an old TV or armchair has a yard sale.
Sonny Ryan, a retired judge in town, didn't hear disability cases in his courtroom. But the subject came up often. He described one exchange he had with a man who was on disability but looked healthy.
"Just out of curiosity, what is your disability?" the judge asked from the bench.
"I have high blood pressure," the man said.
"So do I," the judge said. "What else?"
"I have diabetes."
"So do I."
There's no diagnosis called disability. You don't go to the doctor and the doctor says, "We've run the tests and it looks like you have disability." It's squishy enough that you can end up with one person with high blood pressure who is labeled disabled and another who is not.
I talked to lots of people in Hale County who were on disability. Sometimes, the disability seemed unambiguous.
"I was in a 1990 Jeep Cherokee Laredo," Dane Mitchell, a 23-year-old guy I met in a coffee shop, told me. "I flipped it both ways, flew 165 feet from the Jeep, going through 12 to 14,000 volts of electrical lines. Then I landed into a briar patch. I broke all five of my right toes, my right hip, seven of my vertebrae, shattering one, breaking a right rib, punctured my lung, and then I cracked my neck."
Other stories seemed less clear. I sat with lots of women in Hale County who told me how their backs kept them up at night and made it hard for them to stand on the job. "I used to cry to try to work," one woman told me. "It was so painful."
People don't seem to be faking this pain, but it gets confusing. I have back pain. My editor has a herniated disc, and he works harder than anyone I know. There must be millions of people with asthma and diabetes who go to work every day. Who gets to decide whether, say, back pain makes someone disabled?
As far as the federal government is concerned, you're disabled if you have a medical condition that makes it impossible to work. In practice, it's a judgment call made in doctors' offices and courtrooms around the country. The health problems where there is most latitude for judgment -- back pain, mental illness -- are among the fastest growing causes of disability.
Graph: Newly Disabled Workers, By Diagnoses Source: Social Security Administration
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
In Hale County, there was one guy whose name was mentioned in almost every story about becoming disabled: Dr. Perry Timberlake. I began to wonder if he was the reason so many people in Hale County are on disability. Maybe he was running some sort of disability scam, referring tons of people into the program.
After sitting in the waiting room of his clinic several mornings in a row, I met Dr. Timberlake. It turns out, there is nothing shifty about him. He is a doctor in a very poor place where pretty much every person who comes into his office tells him they are in pain.
"We talk about the pain and what it’s like," he says. "I always ask them, 'What grade did you finish?'"
What grade did you finish, of course, is not really a medical question. But Dr. Timberlake believes he needs this information in disability cases because people who have only a high school education aren't going to be able to get a sit-down job.
Dr. Timberlake is making a judgment call that if you have a particular back problem and a college degree, you're not disabled. Without the degree, you are.
Dr. Perry Timberlake poses for a portrait in an examination room at the Hale County Hospital Clinic on in Greensboro, Alabama In Hale County, there was one guy whose name was mentioned in almost every story about becoming disabled: Dr. Perry Timberlake, shown in an examination room at the Hale County Hospital Clinic in Greensboro, Alabama. Credit: Brinson Banks for NPR
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Over and over again, I'd listen to someone's story of how back pain meant they could no longer work, or how a shoulder injury had put them out of a job. Then I would ask: What about a job where you don't have to lift things, or a job where you don't have to use your shoulder, or a job where you can sit down? They would look at me as if I were asking, "How come you didn't consider becoming an astronaut?"
One woman I met, Ethel Thomas, is on disability for back pain after working many years at the fish plant, and then as a nurse's aide. When I asked her what job she would have in her dream world, she told me she would be the woman at the Social Security office who weeds through disability applications. I figured she said this because she thought she'd be good at weeding out the cheaters. But that wasn't it. She said she wanted this job because it is the only job she's seen where you get to sit all day.
At first, I found this hard to believe. But then I started looking around town. There's the McDonald's, the fish plant, the truck repair shop. I went down a list of job openings -- Occupational Therapist, McDonald's, McDonald's, Truck Driver (heavy lifting), KFC, Registered Nurse, McDonald's.
I actually think it might be possible that Ethel could not conceive of a job that would accommodate her pain.
‘We're Just Hiding You Guys’
Credit: John Lloyd / Flickr
Aberdeen, Washington
There's a story we hear all the time these days that doesn't, on its face, seem to have anything to do with disability: Local Mill Shuts Down. Or, maybe: Factory To Close.
Four years ago, when I was working as a reporter in Seattle, I did that story. I stood with workers in a dead mill in Aberdeen, Washington and memorialized the era when you could graduate from high school and get a job at a mill and live a good life. That was the end of the story.
But after I got interested in disability, I followed up with some of the guys to see what happened to them after the mill closed. One of them, Scott Birdsall, went to lots of meetings where he learned about retraining programs and educational opportunities. At one meeting, he says, a staff member pulled him aside.
"Scotty, I'm gonna be honest with you," the guy told him. "There's nobody gonna hire you … We're just hiding you guys." The staff member's advice to Scott was blunt: "Just suck all the benefits you can out of the system until everything is gone, and then you're on your own."
Scott, who was 56 years old at the time, says it was the most real thing anyone had said to him in a while.
There used to be a lot of jobs that you could do with just a high school degree, and that paid enough to be considered middle class. I knew, of course, that those have been disappearing for decades. What surprised me was what has been happening to many of the people who lost those jobs: They've been going on disability.
Applications for Disability Rise and Fall With the Unemployment Rate Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Social Security Administration
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
Scott tried school for a while, but hated it. So he took the advice of the rogue staffer who told him to suck all the benefits he could out of the system. He had a heart attack after the mill closed and figured, "Since I've had a bypass, maybe I can get on disability, and then I won't have worry to about this stuff anymore." It worked; Scott is now on disability.
Scott's dad had a heart attack and went back to work in the mill. If there'd been a mill for Scott to go back to work in, he says, he'd have done that too. But there wasn't a mill, so he went on disability. It wasn't just Scott. I talked to a bunch of mill guys who took this path -- one who shattered the bones in his ankle and leg, one with diabetes, another with a heart attack. When the mill shut down, they all went on disability.
I don't know what that rogue staffer meant when he told Scott Birdsall they were trying to hide those mill guys. But signing up for disability benefits is an excellent way to stay hidden in one key way: People on disability are not counted among the unemployed.
Graph: Percentage of Population Age 18-64 on Workers' Disability (2011) Source: Social Security Administration
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
"That's a kind of ugly secret of the American labor market," David Autor, an economist at MIT, told me. "Part of the reason our unemployment rates have been low, until recently, is that a lot of people who would have trouble finding jobs are on a different program."
Part of the rise in the number of people on disability is simply driven by the fact that the workforce is getting older, and older people tend to have more health problems.
But disability has also become a de facto welfare program for people without a lot of education or job skills. But it wasn't supposed to serve this purpose; it's not a retraining program designed to get people back onto their feet. Once people go onto disability, they almost never go back to work. Fewer than 1 percent of those who were on the federal program for disabled workers at the beginning of 2011 have returned to the workforce since then, one economist told me.
People who leave the workforce and go on disability qualify for Medicare, the government health care program that also covers the elderly. They also get disability payments from the government of about $13,000 a year. This isn't great. But if your alternative is a minimum wage job that will pay you at most $15,000 a year, and probably does not include health insurance, disability may be a better option.
But going on disability means you will not work, you will not get a raise, you will not get whatever meaning people get from work. Going on disability means, assuming you rely only on those disability payments, you will be poor for the rest of your life. That's the deal. And it's a deal 14 million Americans have signed up for.
Kids
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
Jahleel Duroc is on disability
As I got further into this story, I started hearing about another group of people on disability: kids. People in Hale County told me that what you want is a kid who can "pull a check." Many people mentioned this, but I basically ignored it. It seemed like one of those things that maybe happened once or twice, got written up in the paper and became conversational fact among neighbors.
Then I looked at the numbers. I found that the number of kids on a program called Supplemental Security Income -- a program for children and adults who are both poor and disabled -- is almost seven times larger than it was 30 years ago.
Graph: Children on Disability (1974-2011) Source: Social Security Administration
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
Note: To see the number of disabled children on disability as a percentage of children eligible for the benefits, go here.
Jahleel Duroc (pictured above) is gap-toothed, 10 and vibrating with enthusiasm. He's excited to talk to someone new, excited to show me his map of his neighborhood in the Bronx. He's disabled in the eyes of the government because he has a learning disability.
"I like school," he told me. "My favorite periods are math and science and art, and lunch and recess and snack … social studies and writing are my favorite."
His favorite thing about school, in other words, is everything.
When you are an adult applying for disability you have to prove you cannot function in a "work-like setting." When you are a kid, a disability can be anything that prevents you from progressing in school. Two-thirds of all kids on the program today have been diagnosed with mental or intellectual problems.
Jahleel is a kid you can imagine doing very well for himself. He is delayed. But given the right circumstances and support, it's easy to believe that over the course of his schooling Jahleel could catch up.
Let's imagine that happens. Jahleel starts doing better in school, overcomes some of his disabilities. He doesn't need the disability program anymore. That would seem to be great for everyone, except for one thing: It would threaten his family's livelihood. Jahleel's family primarily survives off the monthly $700 check they get for his disability.
Jahleel's mom wants him to do well in school. That is absolutely clear. But her livelihood depends on Jahleel struggling in school. This tension only increases as kids get older. One mother told me her teenage son wanted to work, but she didn't want him to get a job because if he did, the family would lose its disability check.
I haven't taken a survey or anything, but I'm guessing a large majority of Americans would be in favor of some form of government support for disabled children living in poverty. We would have a hard time agreeing on exactly how we want to offer support, but I think there are some basic things we'd all agree on.
Kids should be encouraged to go to school. Kids should want to do well in school. Parents should want their kids to do well in school. Kids should be confident their parents can provide for them regardless of how they do in school. Kids should become more and more independent as they grow older and hopefully be able to support themselves at around age 18.
The disability program stands in opposition to every one of these aims.
The End Of Welfare As We Knew It
Credit: J. Scott Applewhite / Associated Press Bill Clinton signs welfare reform into law (1996).
A federal program for disabled people was first proposed in the 1930s. Even then, a Social Security actuary was worried. "You will have workers like those in the Dust Bowl area, people who have migrated to California and elsewhere, who perhaps have not worked in a year or two, who will imagine they are disabled," the actuary wrote. The cost of the program could be higher than "anything that can be forecast."
The actuary's warning gets at a central tension in a much bigger debate: What should we, as a country, do for people who aren't making it? Americans want to be generous. But Americans don't want to be chumps.
The first key pieces of the modern safety net were created in the 1930s, under Franklin Roosevelt. The first federal disability program was created in the '50s. A few years later, Lyndon Johnson pushed to expand the federal safety net further.
In the '80s, Ronald Reagan argued that a robust economy would do more to eliminate poverty than any federal program. When Reagan used the term "welfare queen," it was clear where he stood. He didn't want to be a chump.
Bill Clinton tried to appease both sides. He expanded many programs for the working poor, but he also promised to "end welfare as we know it" -- to nudge people off of public assistance, give them some job training, and force them to make it on their own. "A society rooted in responsibility must first promote the value of work, not welfare," Clinton said. History has judged Clinton's welfare reform a big success.
But when you include disability in the story of welfare reform, the picture looks more ambiguous.
Graph showing as the number of families on welfare declines the number of low-income on disability rose and the number of former workers on disability went up Source: Department of Health and Human Services, Social Security Administration
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
Part of Clinton's welfare reform plan pushed states to get people on welfare into jobs, partly by making states pay a much larger share of welfare costs. The incentive seemed to work; the welfare rolls shrank. But not everyone who left welfare went to work.
‘Can you think of anything else that’s been bothering you and disabling you and preventing you from working?’
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
A person on welfare costs a state money. That same resident on disability doesn't cost the state a cent, because the federal government covers the entire bill for people on disability. So states can save money by shifting people from welfare to disability. And the Public Consulting Group is glad to help.
PCG is a private company that states pay to comb their welfare rolls and move as many people as possible onto disability. "What we're offering is to work to identify those folks who have the highest likelihood of meeting disability criteria," Pat Coakley, who runs PCG's Social Security Advocacy Management team, told me.
The company has an office in eastern Washington state that's basically a call center, full of headsetted women in cubicles who make calls all day long to potentially disabled Americans, trying to help them discover and document their disabilities:
"The high blood pressure, how long have you been taking medications for that?" one PCG employee asked over the phone the day I visited the company. "Can you think of anything else that's been bothering you and disabling you and preventing you from working?"
The PCG agents help the potentially disabled fill out the Social Security disability application over the phone. And by help, I mean the agents actually do the filling out. When the potentially disabled don't have the right medical documentation to prove a disability, the agents at PCG help them get it. They call doctors' offices; they get records faxed. If the right medical records do not exist, PCG sets up doctors' appointments and calls applicants the day before to remind them of those appointments.
PCG also works very, very hard to make the people who work at the Social Security happy. Whenever the company wins a new contract, Coakley will personally introduce himself at the local Social Security Administration office, and see how he can make things as easy as possible for the administrators there.
"We go through even to the point, frankly, of do you like things to be stapled or paper-clipped?" he told me. "Paper clips wins out a lot of times because they need to make photocopies and they don't want to be taking staples out."
There's a reason PCG goes to all this trouble. The company gets paid by the state every time it moves someone off of welfare and onto disability. In recent contract negotiations with Missouri, PCG asked for $2,300 per person. For Missouri, that's a deal -- every time someone goes on disability, it means Missouri no longer has to send them cash payments every month. For the nation as a whole, it means one more person added to the disability rolls.
The Disability-Industrial Complex
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
Files at Binder and Binder, a law firm that handles some 30,000 disability cases each year.
In the past few decades, an entire disability-industrial complex has emerged. It has just one goal: Push more people onto disability. And, sometimes, it seems like the government is outmatched. This is especially true in the legal system.
Daytime TV in many places is full of ads from lawyers who promise to fight the government and win the disability benefits you deserve. There are tons of YouTube videos about getting disability -- one lawyer, one webcam. The standard form is a let's-get-real chat about how to win this thing.
There is one man who takes much of the credit for this industry: Charles Binder. "When we started," Binder told me, "I don't think anybody else was advertising." What's more, most people who applied for disability were denied and never had a hearing. Binder, and the lawyers who followed him, changed that. "I've created some of the problems for the government because so many people appeal," Binder says.
When he started in 1979, Binder represented fewer than 50 clients. Last year, his firm represented 30,000 people. Thirty thousand people who were denied disability appealed with the help of Charles Binder's firm. In one year. Last year, Binder and Binder made $68.7 million in fees for disability cases.
The way Binder tells it, he's is a guy helping desperate people get the support they deserve. He is a cowboy-hatted Lone Ranger going to court to fight the good fight for the everyman.
Who is making the case for the other side? Who is defending the government's decision to deny disability?
Nobody.
"You might imagine a courtroom where on one side there's the claimant and on the other side there's a government attorney who is saying, 'We need to protect the public interest and your client is not sufficiently deserving,'" the economist David Autor says. "Actually, it doesn't work like that. There is no government lawyer on the other side of the room."
The Social Security Administration says disability hearings were never meant to be adversarial. In these courtrooms, the judges are employees of Social Security. So the judges are supposed to both represent the government and make a fair and objective determination. But the judges themselves say this role can be difficult.
Judge Randy Frye, who hears disability cases in North Carolina, told me he often finds himself glancing to where he imagines there should be a chair for the government attorney, as there would be in a normal case. "There are always moments where you are concerned maybe you missed something," he says.
"You would turn to that chair and say, 'Counsel, I'm having trouble with this issue. Why does the government think this case should not be reversed?'"
Graph Source: Social Security Administration
Credit: Lam Thuy Vo / NPR
Note: To see the percentage of all eligible adults who are on disability, go here.
Somewhere around 30 years ago, the economy started changing in some fundamental ways. There are now millions of Americans who do not have the skills or education to make it in this country.
Politicians pay lip service to this problem during election cycles, but American leaders have not sat down and come up with a comprehensive plan.
In the meantime, federal disability programs became our extremely expensive default plan. The two big disability programs, including health care for disabled workers, cost some $260 billion a year.
People at the Social Security Administration, which runs the federal disability programs, say we cannot afford this. The reserves in the disability insurance program are on track to run out in 2016, Steve Goss, the chief actuary at Social Security, told me.
Goss is confident that Congress will act to keep disability payments flowing, probably by taking money from the Social Security retirement fund. Of course, the retirement fund itself is on track to run out of money by 2035.
Goss and his colleagues have worked out a temporary fix under which the retirement and disability funds will both run out of money by 2033. He says he hopes the country will have come up with a better plan by then.
Thoughts?
I deal with this at work on a daily basis. I would not be surprised if the town I work in had an even higher proportion than 1 in 4 on disability. I think it may really be closer to half.
I wonder if there's any kind of solution- even hypothetically- or if we're going to eventually hit a breaking point where we just plain have to rethink how money works, or what.
One thing this definitely re-emphasizes for me is how much clearer it would be if statistics on how many people have full-time jobs were published, rather than "unemployment rates." Even FT job numbers would probably make the picture seem rosier than it is- you can't survive on 40 hours of minimum wage a week- but they'd sure as hell be clearer than this.
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In conclusion: Lazy fucks.
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Wonder how many are because of the wars.
Strangely, disability rates tend to increase when we send people into combat.
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It's hard to scrutinize beneficial spending when war is in the budget.
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But not hard to scrutinize the beneficial effects of population culling.
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But not hard to scrutinize the beneficial effects of population culling.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQaKEpV8mRu9FZWJvwkBsP68EL9-zYtJq1V7JnnD-SBxM79VDv_bA)
Oh shutup, Calandale. I'm pretty jaded and cynical myself but you're just fucking ridiculous, dude.
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Nope. War has always served that purpose.
Sure, we gots condoms now, but we ain't caught up with technology - not in the least.
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Thoughts?
How do I get on this gravy train?? :hide:
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Nope. War has always served that purpose.
Sure, we gots condoms now, but we ain't caught up with technology - not in the least.
Well. I can agree with that.
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Thoughts?
How do I get on this gravy train?? :hide:
How do you get the opportunity to try to live on under $20,000 a year, you mean?
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Be someone who is so lazy they are willing to sink to those levels just to get out of having to apply themselves, of course.
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Be someone who is so lazy they are willing to sink to those levels just to get out of having to apply themselves, of course.
I have a sister that has succeeded at that for over 20 years now. She cannot sit, stand, kneel, lay down, levitate or do any other fucking thing as it relates to work. As far as I know she does all of those things except levitate while being paid to not work. ::)
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Be someone who is so lazy they are willing to sink to those levels just to get out of having to apply themselves, of course.
I have a sister that has succeeded at that for over 20 years now. She cannot sit, stand, kneel, lay down, levitate or do any other fucking thing as it relates to work. As far as I know she does all of those things except levitate while being paid to not work. ::)
do any other fucking thing as it relates to work
she does all of those things except levitate while being paid to not work
paid to not work
::)
(http://i.imgur.com/1lMJa.gif)
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How do you get the opportunity to try to live on under $20,000 a year, you mean?
It's much more than that when you account for the health benefits.
What's really sad is being a member of the working poor - where you're making that kind of money
but have NO benefits.
The year or so I was on welfare I lived better than I did when working (as I usually did) rather sporadically.
If disabilities are such that you can receive a bonus for not working, it seems worth fighting to maintain them.
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Laid off miners/mill/factory workers on disability we've got a ton of them around here.
Most of them older, health problems...high school education (if that).
Not lazy, many are just out of options.
You can retrain, but no employer is going out of there way to hire a 45+ or 50 something employee with a bad back/knees or heart problems to run the risk that in 2 months they'll get hurt on the job and they'll end up paying out workmen's comp.
If you find a job but if it doesn't come with health care, your prescription costs alone in a month can eat up everything you have.
You can take them all off of disability...then what?
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Laid off miners/mill/factory workers on disability we've got a ton of them around here.
Most of them older, health problems...high school education (if that).
Not lazy, many are just out of options.
You can retrain, but no employer is going out of there way to hire a 45+ or 50 something employee with a bad back/knees or heart problems to run the risk that in 2 months they'll get hurt on the job and they'll end up paying out workmen's comp.
If you find a job but if it doesn't come with health care, your prescription costs alone in a month can eat up everything you have.
You can take them all off of disability...then what?
Nonono. Its not about all the people who are legitimately disabled, IQ. They've always been around. The number is rising sharply, because people are sucking the hind teat of america in order to get out of making any real effort at anything.
We're talking young people, perhaps with minor mental disabilities, totally capable of work. They just refuse to. And they are spreading like fucking poison ivy. These little dinguses complain and bitch and whine, they are usually morbidly obese or addicted to a bunch of drugs that they mysteriously have the money for, etc.
Typical young american on disability(lazy bottom feeding fuck): "I am so fucking pissed. I had to wait an extra two days for the government to sent me free money because of some paperwork issue! *plays with ipad, posting on facebook*"
MEANWHILE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY
Typical tween(typical means average): "I hope I will be able to find enough work to support the needs of my younger siblings. I am thirteen, and my mother died of exhaustion last month. I am thankful that I have been able to survive this long...."
And the typical young american on diability is like the lowest of the lowest of the lowest in america. Its absolutely horrifying to me. Even if you're a lazy piece of shit and REFUSE to work in our country, your life is still like a thousand times better than if you lived somewhere else. Makes me want to fucking vomit.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDyftlQ_zcxMS1ctsAgFP72r8qcC3eKTko6vdpMTFdhUn7blGP)
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Itt: America is allowing people to be manipulative pieces of shit. I am actually curious as to whether or not people who fall into that kind of life are more apt to be criminals. :apondering:
I'm gonna look an see if a study has been done on that when I get a bit of slow time.
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True.
The ones I find most sickening are the parents collecting because of a child who is minimally impaired (ADD, diabetic, etc), that encourage that child to "do nothing" so that they won't ever lose that check. :P
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True.
The ones I find most sickening are the parents collecting because of a child who is minimally impaired (ADD, diabetic, etc), that encourage that child to "do nothing" so that they won't ever lose that check. :P
Yeah. That really chaps my ass.
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Itt: America is allowing people to be manipulative pieces of shit. I am actually curious as to whether or not people who fall into that kind of life are more apt to be criminals. :apondering:
We've always had politicians. And we've had big business for over a century.
nothing new.
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Well I implied americans that suck welfare cock, but 10/10 good linkage bro. Would lol again.
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Good lord. I was expecting some people to have asinine replies, seeing as it's the internet, but I was hoping for a more enlightened discussion, on here.
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Oh and what would qualify as enlightened?
I too am sick of these folk:
We're talking young people, perhaps with minor mental disabilities, totally capable of work. They just refuse to. And they are spreading like fucking poison ivy. These little dinguses complain and bitch and whine, they are usually morbidly obese or addicted to a bunch of drugs that they mysteriously have the money for, etc.
especially the young ones who are convinced they have a disability that prevents them from working because they've been diagnosed with a mental disorder, and then spend a good chunk of their time blogging self-righteously about how oppressed they are. I have a particular stick up my ass about this one because I work for a living, and I've gotten close enough to at least one of these idiots to see how much of it is hot air and social manipulation.
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Some people can work, but will never possess the ability to be self-sufficient. The fact the disability bureaucracy is an all or nothing program creates a situation where people can't work and still receive assistance, unless if participating in a government work placement program. There is no partial disability. Not to say there aren't people working the system, but the system works itself.
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Yeah. I absolutely agree there should be tiers of assistance, and better programs for educating people and helping them prepare to work in a new field if their current industry gets outsourced. Wouldn't it be great if they were funded by corporate tax dollars, such that it became more financially viable to keep jobs in the area? This stratification of the whole planet into areas of high mass production vs areas of 'educated elite', doesn't align with natural human variance where people of all different talents will be born into all different places.
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That would absolutely qualify as enlightened.
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True.
The ones I find most sickening are the parents collecting because of a child who is minimally impaired (ADD, diabetic, etc), that encourage that child to "do nothing" so that they won't ever lose that check. :P
It would make more sense if the check went directly to the health care services it was intended for. Parents and guardians cannot be trusted not to use that money on themselves.
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True.
The ones I find most sickening are the parents collecting because of a child who is minimally impaired (ADD, diabetic, etc), that encourage that child to "do nothing" so that they won't ever lose that check. :P
It would make more sense if the check went directly to the health care services it was intended for. Parents and guardians cannot be trusted not to use that money on themselves.
But then the politicians would have their hands in the wallet. Most of the time for a lot of people getting health/maintnance services is a trial. I'm trying to get life services for the PR. Right now we're playing the ubiquitous phone tag. My g'friend has life services for her daughter - a phone call once a month to see if anything has changed and a quarterly visit of 15 minutes to the g'friend's house earns the agency $400 per month.
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One of my brothers slipped and fell on stairs on a sidewalk and broke his back just before thanksgiving and will be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, he got emergency assistance right away but they dragged their heels on the permanent disability and made him jump through all kinds of hoops to get it causing all kinds of financial hardship before it was finally approved not that long ago. One of my sisters was put in a similar situation but with early onset alzheimer's she needs 24 hour care but they dragged the approval out for what seemed like an eternity. Yet I have met people with what would never think of as permanent problems that virtually flew through the system and people who just played it to collect as much and as long as they could. I think they really need to take a hard look at how they do these things much of it seems to be paperwork for the sake of paperwork alone.
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Good lord. I was expecting some people to have asinine replies, seeing as it's the internet, but I was hoping for a more enlightened discussion, on here.
You don't like the way I see things, I take it?
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Oh and what would qualify as enlightened?
I too am sick of these folk:
We're talking young people, perhaps with minor mental disabilities, totally capable of work. They just refuse to. And they are spreading like fucking poison ivy. These little dinguses complain and bitch and whine, they are usually morbidly obese or addicted to a bunch of drugs that they mysteriously have the money for, etc.
especially the young ones who are convinced they have a disability that prevents them from working because they've been diagnosed with a mental disorder, and then spend a good chunk of their time blogging self-righteously about how oppressed they are. I have a particular stick up my ass about this one because I work for a living, and I've gotten close enough to at least one of these idiots to see how much of it is hot air and social manipulation.
Hate to use a gif twice for the same kind of thing... but.
(http://www.gifcrap.com/g2data/albums/Forum/Jeremiah%20Johnson%20nod.gif)
I absolutely agree there should be tiers of assistance
Yeah. And the tier of assistance most of these little bastards would qualify for is a kick in the ass for being lazy and trying to con people.
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I wonder how much of this has to do with an increasing aged populous?
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I wonder how much of this has to do with an increasing aged populous?
I am sure some of it is so get ready for it to get even worse as the babyboomers start to creak even more
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I wonder how much of this has to do with an increasing aged populous?
I am sure some of it is so get ready for it to get even worse as the babyboomers start to creak even more
time to rethink Logan's Run.
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I wonder how much of this has to do with an increasing aged populous?
I am sure some of it is so get ready for it to get even worse as the babyboomers start to creak even more
time to rethink Logan's Run.
Well at least until I get to be the cut off age :zoinks:
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Or injure yourself. They shoot a lame horse why not a parts?
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Or injure yourself. They shoot a lame horse why not a parts?
Parts are always useful you should not waste them :zoinks:
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Not all mental disorders are "mild"
Not all young people on disability are lazy fuckers, in fact I see it all the time where I volunteer, young people (age 18-30) that want to work, are on disability because they've had trouble keeping a job or getting a job in the first place. These individuals are in fact very hard working, and don't want to spend the rest of their lives living off the government on a fixed income, nobody truly wants that unless you really are a lazy fuck. The majority of the people we work are those mental disorders, developmental disabilities, and autism spectrum.
I have to agree with PMS, I was a little shocked by some of the callous replies, but I guess it's natural to have a knee jerk reaction to something you don't have much first hand experience with.
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People just like to judge others. I think it's an insecure reflex mechanism.
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People just like to judge others. I think it's an insecure reflex mechanism.
:indeed:
It seems some people have conveniently forgotten why they are here :autism:
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Not all mental disorders are "mild"
Not all young people on disability are lazy fuckers, in fact I see it all the time where I volunteer, young people (age 18-30) that want to work, are on disability because they've had trouble keeping a job or getting a job in the first place. These individuals are in fact very hard working, and don't want to spend the rest of their lives living off the government on a fixed income, nobody truly wants that unless you really are a lazy fuck. The majority of the people we work are those mental disorders, developmental disabilities, and autism spectrum.
I have to agree with PMS, I was a little shocked by some of the callous replies, but I guess it's natural to have a knee jerk reaction to something you don't have much first hand experience with.
Same old, same old. Both "sides" use this argument, "well it's not true of everyone!" Of course it's not true of everyone, there will always be lazy people and there will always be hardworking people. You have no way of backing up the statement that the majority of people (presumably you mean "who don't work" not "we work") are people with severe enough mental disabilities that their disability support is justified.
It's not a knee jerk reaction to say that some people don't have a severe enough disability to be literally incapable of working.
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There's "incapable of working," and then there's "incapable of sustaining adequate employment." I agree that some people game the system. Some people are also trapped by it. Sometimes it's passed down through generations, where living off the government becomes a "norm," and I honestly believe that's a honeypot to be born into and hard to get out of. So is lack of education. And, to put it a bit harshly, so is lack of intelligence, in many cases. So is lack of transportation (need the money to get the car to get the job to get the money to get the car- etc). So is lack of job history- it's a problem that snowballs.
I see it every day- the cons gaming the system, as well as the people who will probably never be able to hold down a job. Sometimes, it's both at once. A lot of people in my generation especially have an unfortunate lack of grit and perseverance, which is a whole different rant and a whole different issue. I also see a lot of people who are only qualified for physical work, who are in their fifties and above, will not be able to complete a degree, will probably not be hired sustainable, will not even be able to stay on their feet all day. Physical jobs (including labor, but also just jobs where you're on your feet all day) have an earlier end point than desk jobs, and often the people who took those jobs in the first place end up least equipped to re-think their careers when they are no longer able to work.
What's someplace between depressing and infuriating is the plain and simple issue of what kinda of jobs do and don't exist any more. It's much harder than it used to be to just 'find a job.' Most sustainable jobs are high-skill now. Pensions are more and more a thing of the past. Lower-skill jobs that used to be for high school kids are now filled with workers across all ages- there's more competition to work in a damn grocery store nowadays than people even a decade ago would have believed possible. Wages aren't rising as fast as the cost of living is.
So, yeah, I see it as a complex issue, and not just an issue of "those lazy fucks."
There's also the issue of whether or not giving out disability regardless of need or merit ultimately costs society more or less than whatever would happen without disability. That's also a whole nother issue, but I know sometimes the stats on that kind of thing an be surprising. It's actually cheaper, for example, to provide a family with housing, than to lodge them in a homeless shelter.
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There are makers and takers. Most corporations are takers and laborers are makers.
I see a bigger problem, in America, with corporate welfare rather than welfare for the needy.
If I'm a single mother I can work two jobs (atminimum wage), work 50 hours per week and still live in poverty. I would much rather live off disability and/or welfare and be home to raise/influence my children than work away from home and still live in poverty.
To me, a person that pays a shitload in taxes, my tax dollars spent helping he needy is my tax dollars well spent. My tax dollars spent on corporate welfare, crony capitalism and war is a waste.
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Lower-skill jobs that used to be for high school kids are now filled with workers across all ages- there's more competition to work in a damn grocery store nowadays than people even a decade ago would have believed possible. Wages aren't rising as fast as the cost of living is.
This is true, and its an excuse to get angry and try to change things. But its not an excuse to give up.
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If I'm a single mother I can work two jobs (atminimum wage), work 50 hours per week and still live in poverty. I would much rather live off disability and/or welfare and be home to raise/influence my children than work away from home and still live in poverty.
As someone who believes part of our tax dollars should be used to help the less fortunate, I have to say that there is something seriously with our country if it pays more for a single mom to be on welfare than it does for the single mom to work. Work is supposed to create a higher standard of living than welfare, not the other way around.
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If I'm a single mother I can work two jobs (atminimum wage), work 50 hours per week and still live in poverty. I would much rather live off disability and/or welfare and be home to raise/influence my children than work away from home and still live in poverty.
As someone who believes part of our tax dollars should be used to help the less fortunate, I have to say that there is something seriously with our country if it pays more for a single mom to be on welfare than it does for the single mom to work. Work is supposed to create a higher standard of living than welfare, not the other way around.
I blame capitalism practiced to its nth degree. It is every leader of industry needing to satisfy the stockholders demands. Yet these leaders are not innovative. Their solution is outsourcing jobs and creating competition amongst labor....a race to the bottom. No sense of communal responsibility. And strict adherence to the philosophy that greed is good.
Also, you see that there are many of these leaders today that were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They had all the opportunities in the world. How can they empathize with those in poverty when they never had to struggle themselves?
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A balance that I am alarmed by us the current balance in the US between record corporate profits and 8% unemployment.
It used to be theorized that full employment 4%or less) was needed in order to generate buyers to keep this old consumer based economy working.
Business does not care about the system. Their loyalties are to profits, not borders.
I know this is a thread about disability 'claims' I think it's all connected.
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If I'm a single mother I can work two jobs (atminimum wage), work 50 hours per week and still live in poverty. I would much rather live off disability and/or welfare and be home to raise/influence my children than work away from home and still live in poverty.
As someone who believes part of our tax dollars should be used to help the less fortunate, I have to say that there is something seriously with our country if it pays more for a single mom to be on welfare than it does for the single mom to work. Work is supposed to create a higher standard of living than welfare, not the other way around.
I blame capitalism practiced to its nth degree. It is every leader of industry needing to satisfy the stockholders demands. Yet these leaders are not innovative. Their solution is outsourcing jobs and creating competition amongst labor....a race to the bottom. No sense of communal responsibility. And strict adherence to the philosophy that greed is good.
Also, you see that there are many of these leaders today that were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They had all the opportunities in the world. How can they empathize with those in poverty when they never had to struggle themselves?
*nodnod* I heard it said once (someone on NPR or some article in a newspaper, probably) that one downside of the current structure vs. that in the 1950s and earlier (despite us getting *closer* to equal opportunity for people other than white men since then) is that "back in the day" there was an understanding that you were working for something where you'd be passing a legacy down- basically, that honor and morality regarding the work you were doing mattered.
Of course, I sorta doubt that was really usually the case even in earlier times, but hey, I'm cynical.
And, again, exactly- it's cheaper to outsource labor, so labor gets outsourced. On the one hand, if this stopped happening, the price of good would probably rise. On the other hand, more people in America would be able to get their basic needs met by working.
Lower-skill jobs that used to be for high school kids are now filled with workers across all ages- there's more competition to work in a damn grocery store nowadays than people even a decade ago would have believed possible. Wages aren't rising as fast as the cost of living is.
This is true, and its an excuse to get angry and try to change things. But its not an excuse to give up.
What do you propose we do, Rage? What do you propose otherwise-candidates for disability do?
If I'm a single mother I can work two jobs (atminimum wage), work 50 hours per week and still live in poverty. I would much rather live off disability and/or welfare and be home to raise/influence my children than work away from home and still live in poverty.
As someone who believes part of our tax dollars should be used to help the less fortunate, I have to say that there is something seriously with our country if it pays more for a single mom to be on welfare than it does for the single mom to work. Work is supposed to create a higher standard of living than welfare, not the other way around.
Exactly. And there is. (I'm assuming you left out the word "wrong.")
Also- the single mom in the example would be in poverty even without childcare factored in. Factor childcare in, and all of a sudden she's almost working for nothing until her kids go to school. Believe me, I see this often enough- it's very fucking real, and it's a real problem.
A balance that I am alarmed by us the current balance in the US between record corporate profits and 8% unemployment.
It used to be theorized that full employment 4%or less) was needed in order to generate buyers to keep this old consumer based economy working.
Business does not care about the system. Their loyalties are to profits, not borders.
I know this is a thread about disability 'claims' I think it's all connected.
Well, take "record corporate profits" with something of a grain of salt, because depending on how the data is juggled, you may not properly be accounting for inflation and/or the fact that corporations are just plain BIGGER so the numbers are also bigger and would be even if profit per worker was the same. That said, yes, multinational corporations are (pardon the pun) a giant problem. Monopolies used to be illegal. There's a damn REASON they used to be illegal. Now, we just have ways of sorta-kinda masking when things are monopolies. When was the last time you heard about any "trusts" being "busted?" There's an ever-widening gap between rich and poor in America. Social mobility is more and more of a lie. It *is* getting worse.
And you're actually talking about some of the issues I hoped would be raised. It *is* all connected, and I wonder what on earth the solution even COULD be, let alone WILL be.
There's other factors, too- things are just plain more automated nowadays (and there goes factory jobs even without outsourcing- hell, there go taxi drivers, in a decade or two, with smart cars- and I'm sure that's just scratching the surface). Not only is high school expected, now college is expected (even if it really does nothing more than high school for employability, and adds crazy-debt in the process). The population *is* aging, and that will get worse before it gets better (the baby boomer generation had, I believe, higher fertility rates than nowadays- thank god- but they're the generation that's hitting retirement age around now).
The current *expected* employment and income structure just plain isn't sustainable, in my opinion, even if all the other bullshit was removed from the equation (and I know I'm not alone in thinking this). So, even if the conglomocorps and corruption and all that jazz got taken away, we're STILL left with the question of how the economy should look in the future- and how it WILL look.
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Good stuff. I have fun. This is fun.
The future is going to go one of two ways in my opinion:
1.) it's going to be a Walmart world where everybody is just eking by and making so little money that they have to shop at the company store e cause of their low wages and the stores own prices. Government is going to fill the the healthcare and welfare gap.
In essence we will all be slaves in a George Orwellan state. The drugs will keep us from thinking about it or realizing its true.
2.) there will be a labor revolution. Many bricks will be thrown many windows smashed. Near anarchy. Where labor kicks out the ALL POWERFUL middle man and unions come back strong. Not unions in the traditional sense where they collect dues, are guarduous of their territory and use collective bargaining to lift themselves up. I see it more as a collective where they democratically select their leaders and choose how the wealth is redistributed (ideally they would opt first to create more jobs and put more people into middle class lives).
In the second scenario I am not talking about completely eradicating classism, because classism will always exist. I am talking about the masses holding the few elite to accountability. I'm guessing a push towards representative communism.
Unfortunately, this system would require a well informed, well intended populace. I don't think most can be arsed, so I am leaning more towards the company store.
As always, i know what I just meant to write and what I meant to communicate. Ad I refuse to proofread entire I submit. Hahahaha
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What do you propose we do, Rage? What do you propose otherwise-candidates for disability do?
That, missy. That is a fantastic question. Lemme think about it.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
Indeed. Eating too much and not getting any activity is not a disability. Much like the woman who sued mcdonalds for making her fat.
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Good stuff. I have fun. This is fun.
The future is going to go one of two ways in my opinion:
1.) it's going to be a Walmart world where everybody is just eking by and making so little money that they have to shop at the company store e cause of their low wages and the stores own prices. Government is going to fill the the healthcare and welfare gap.
In essence we will all be slaves in a George Orwellan state. The drugs will keep us from thinking about it or realizing its true.
2.) there will be a labor revolution. Many bricks will be thrown many windows smashed. Near anarchy. Where labor kicks out the ALL POWERFUL middle man and unions come back strong. Not unions in the traditional sense where they collect dues, are guarduous of their territory and use collective bargaining to lift themselves up. I see it more as a collective where they democratically select their leaders and choose how the wealth is redistributed (ideally they would opt first to create more jobs and put more people into middle class lives).
In the second scenario I am not talking about completely eradicating classism, because classism will always exist. I am talking about the masses holding the few elite to accountability. I'm guessing a push towards representative communism.
Unfortunately, this system would require a well informed, well intended populace. I don't think most can be arsed, so I am leaning more towards the company store.
As always, i know what I just meant to write and what I meant to communicate. Ad I refuse to proofread entire I submit. Hahahaha
There's aspects of each already happening. I wonder if perhaps long-term we'll go back and forth between one then the other.
I also kinda wonder if we'll expand off-world. I may or may not be watching too much scifi, but, honestly, I think we're fucking the planet up so badly that we're going to otherwise really, really trash our lifestyles if not kill ourselves off totally.
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I've been thinking about adopting green pictures as one of my main political principles.
Yes, it seems life, economy, politics, etc seem to be cyclical. Imagine a pendulum as it swings. Once it gets to a certain point it begins to correct and swing the opposite direction.
I personally think we are currently too conservative. Way too. Some would disagree. What do you think?
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I think I'm sick of everything being an either-or between conservative and liberal. Name specific issues.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
You IRL or Queen Victoria? I know that later in life Queenie had a 50+ inch waist as a pair of her pants survive to this day. Also she was 5ft nothing so must have been almost spherical.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
I would agree it is a disability when a result of a medical condition, a genuine diagnosed condition. But the huge increase in the ranks of the obese in recent years indicates to me that the majority should not be permitted to rely on their fecklessness for state handouts.
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Have never heard of obesity being a disibility.
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I think I'm sick of everything being an either-or between conservative and liberal. Name specific issues.
Me too, I think most people are somewhere in the middle
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I think I'm sick of everything being an either-or between conservative and liberal. Name specific issues.
Me too, I think most people are somewhere in the middle
I would agree if this weren't 2013. I think most democrats are fairly centrist on most issues. But I believe that most republicans are very conservative.
Mitt Ronmey (gfy, mitt) is a perfect example of this. Before he ran for president he was actually a moderate republican on issues of health care, abortion, social safety net, etc. but in order for him to make it out of the primaries he had to run to the right of all his opponents on many issues. Blame rush and fox for the uber conservatism.
Specific issues....disability insurance is a good start!
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I think I'm sick of everything being an either-or between conservative and liberal. Name specific issues.
Fuck political parties. I think we should just do what needs doing. That's all.
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I think I'm sick of everything being an either-or between conservative and liberal. Name specific issues.
Fuck political parties. I think we should just do what needs doing. That's all.
they both turn a blind eye to the abuses of the donor class ( rich who donate to campaigns) and cater to their special interests to be certain.
Our current system cannot be reformed. Time to throw bricks?
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I'd rather throw lead down range. With an ASSAULT WEAPON. :eyebrows:
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I really know that I do not have an opinion of any value really, on the basis that I am Aussie and therefore not subject to the political system in america in any meaningful way, nor do I have access to the media.
BUT......Here is a layman's take on it.
The way I see it, The republican/Conservatives are sterotypically either the traditional values set or the gold ole boys.
The Liberals/Democrats are stereotypically the cultural, cappuccino sipping, internet savvy, intellectual, yuppies and such.
I think there is a real war in America's hearts and minds these days with the things that they value as Americans and the things that they value as global citizens. Yes Americans tended to flock to America originally to escape persecution and become independent and forge a superpower in the next 200-300 years. Therefore they are likely to hold onto those values that got them there. The belief in God, the belief in the sovereignty of America, the xenophobia and unwillingness to consider outsiders ways. These base traditional values basically encapsulate the Conservative mindset.
I do understand this mindset. My parent are 7 generation Aussies from Rural South West Australia. On townships of less than 1000 people. I know these values well. (Just replace "American" for "Australian" or even said township)
The problem is, the fact that the bible values over time are not as set in stone absolute yardsticks they once were and people CAN and DO question the validity of what they are told. The ignorance from the isolationist values are exposed in facebook, twitter and the internet in general and it exposes said ignorance (Before any Americans want to try to go me for calling Americans stupid, I did not say that, I referenced the word ignorant) and the thing is, ignorant people will learn.
So So now you have the numbers of isolationist, god fearing traditional value American who would happily put into the vice Presidency a Alaskan Soccer Mom who is as ignorant as all fuck but towing a comfortable traditional value platform, BUT most will not tolerate that. The numbers of intellectual, open minded, educated, Americans who are prepared to question the what and whos that they are, and prepared to not just tow the line, will actually say, "No, she is a simpleton and we need more than Guns and Apple Pie to make us Global citizens". Simply put the ignorant Americans are in the decline and are running out of ammunition to intellectual defend any attacks from sophisticated attacks from fellow American that are not based on close minded and ignorant belief set. They are now receding into a dwindling minority
I see a decline in Fox and in Conservative strength. Chase Carey will take over Fox News on his Rupert's retirement. By the time Chase Carey I predict that the Fox News channel's rating will be only rating 3 or 4 instead of 1. I see the gradual trend against the establishment and the traditional values and the shock and fear tactics of the government to enforce servitude in America. No grand revolutions, just a gradual shift. It is not be welcome to all.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
You IRL or Queen Victoria? I know that later in life Queenie had a 50+ inch waist as a pair of her pants survive to this day. Also she was 5ft nothing so must have been almost spherical.
See my response in the Blowing Off Steam Thread.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
Food is such a problem, compared to other drugs, because a zero intake policy is not an option.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
You IRL or Queen Victoria? I know that later in life Queenie had a 50+ inch waist as a pair of her pants survive to this day. Also she was 5ft nothing so must have been almost spherical.
See my response in the Blowing Off Steam Thread.
El-Presidente is not there yet.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
You IRL or Queen Victoria? I know that later in life Queenie had a 50+ inch waist as a pair of her pants survive to this day. Also she was 5ft nothing so must have been almost spherical.
See my response in the Blowing Off Steam Thread.
El-Presidente is not there yet.
How do I get there oh bovine one?
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
It's also often a result of the side effects of medication that one is on. Think how freaking medicated America is. It can also be the result of other medical issues. Or something that happens as the result of injury and/or chronic pain- which then becomes an unfortunate trap with things like back pain and joint pain.
There's other factors, obviously: More sedentary lives, less free time, etc. Also the less money you have, the harder it is to eat healthy, and the harder it is to get access to things like gyms or good exercise equipment. For some people who've been victimized, it makes them feel *safer* to be heavier. And for some people, food is about the only pleasure or comfort they have in their lives.
But hey, why think about the issues. It's much easier to just ay "Those fat fucks should eat less and move around more." Same as "The fucking hoboes should all go get fucking jobs." ::)
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
You IRL or Queen Victoria? I know that later in life Queenie had a 50+ inch waist as a pair of her pants survive to this day. Also she was 5ft nothing so must have been almost spherical.
See my response in the Blowing Off Steam Thread.
El-Presidente is not there yet.
How do I get there oh bovine one?
Your fate is in the hands of the whimsical and wise members of this site.
All you can do is post, behave, and, on CBC's behalf, attend mass.
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I really know that I do not have an opinion of any value really, on the basis that I am Aussie and therefore not subject to the political system in america in any meaningful way, nor do I have access to the media.
BUT......Here is a layman's take on it.
The way I see it, The republican/Conservatives are sterotypically either the traditional values set or the gold ole boys.
The Liberals/Democrats are stereotypically the cultural, cappuccino sipping, internet savvy, intellectual, yuppies and such.
I think there is a real war in America's hearts and minds these days with the things that they value as Americans and the things that they value as global citizens. Yes Americans tended to flock to America originally to escape persecution and become independent and forge a superpower in the next 200-300 years. Therefore they are likely to hold onto those values that got them there. The belief in God, the belief in the sovereignty of America, the xenophobia and unwillingness to consider outsiders ways. These base traditional values basically encapsulate the Conservative mindset.
I do understand this mindset. My parent are 7 generation Aussies from Rural South West Australia. On townships of less than 1000 people. I know these values well. (Just replace "American" for "Australian" or even said township)
The problem is, the fact that the bible values over time are not as set in stone absolute yardsticks they once were and people CAN and DO question the validity of what they are told. The ignorance from the isolationist values are exposed in facebook, twitter and the internet in general and it exposes said ignorance (Before any Americans want to try to go me for calling Americans stupid, I did not say that, I referenced the word ignorant) and the thing is, ignorant people will learn.
So So now you have the numbers of isolationist, god fearing traditional value American who would happily put into the vice Presidency a Alaskan Soccer Mom who is as ignorant as all fuck but towing a comfortable traditional value platform, BUT most will not tolerate that. The numbers of intellectual, open minded, educated, Americans who are prepared to question the what and whos that they are, and prepared to not just tow the line, will actually say, "No, she is a simpleton and we need more than Guns and Apple Pie to make us Global citizens". Simply put the ignorant Americans are in the decline and are running out of ammunition to intellectual defend any attacks from sophisticated attacks from fellow American that are not based on close minded and ignorant belief set. They are now receding into a dwindling minority
I see a decline in Fox and in Conservative strength. Chase Carey will take over Fox News on his Rupert's retirement. By the time Chase Carey I predict that the Fox News channel's rating will be only rating 3 or 4 instead of 1. I see the gradual trend against the establishment and the traditional values and the shock and fear tactics of the government to enforce servitude in America. No grand revolutions, just a gradual shift. It is not be welcome to all.
I'd agree that seems at least likely- and lovely- if I wasn't so worried that we'd end up hitting a tipping point before that's possible.
Another thing that might end up making a difference is the simple issue of *time.* Look at the ages of some of the crazier politicians (as well as the politicians in general. A lot of political issues aren't just conservative vs. republican issues; they're also generational ones (gay marriage is a very "current" and also a good/prime example).
A lot are also geographic. Damn, am I glad I don't live in the deep south. What state you live in definitely effects what kinds of people and information you're inundated with.
I'd rather throw lead down range. With an ASSAULT WEAPON. :eyebrows:
That's swift, Rage. Please, post that in every thread you have time to post it in until the forum goes under government surveillance.
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I really know that I do not have an opinion of any value really, on the basis that I am Aussie and therefore not subject to the political system in america in any meaningful way, nor do I have access to the media.
BUT......Here is a layman's take on it.
The way I see it, The republican/Conservatives are sterotypically either the traditional values set or the gold ole boys.
The Liberals/Democrats are stereotypically the cultural, cappuccino sipping, internet savvy, intellectual, yuppies and such.
I think there is a real war in America's hearts and minds these days with the things that they value as Americans and the things that they value as global citizens. Yes Americans tended to flock to America originally to escape persecution and become independent and forge a superpower in the next 200-300 years. Therefore they are likely to hold onto those values that got them there. The belief in God, the belief in the sovereignty of America, the xenophobia and unwillingness to consider outsiders ways. These base traditional values basically encapsulate the Conservative mindset.
I do understand this mindset. My parent are 7 generation Aussies from Rural South West Australia. On townships of less than 1000 people. I know these values well. (Just replace "American" for "Australian" or even said township)
The problem is, the fact that the bible values over time are not as set in stone absolute yardsticks they once were and people CAN and DO question the validity of what they are told. The ignorance from the isolationist values are exposed in facebook, twitter and the internet in general and it exposes said ignorance (Before any Americans want to try to go me for calling Americans stupid, I did not say that, I referenced the word ignorant) and the thing is, ignorant people will learn.
So So now you have the numbers of isolationist, god fearing traditional value American who would happily put into the vice Presidency a Alaskan Soccer Mom who is as ignorant as all fuck but towing a comfortable traditional value platform, BUT most will not tolerate that. The numbers of intellectual, open minded, educated, Americans who are prepared to question the what and whos that they are, and prepared to not just tow the line, will actually say, "No, she is a simpleton and we need more than Guns and Apple Pie to make us Global citizens". Simply put the ignorant Americans are in the decline and are running out of ammunition to intellectual defend any attacks from sophisticated attacks from fellow American that are not based on close minded and ignorant belief set. They are now receding into a dwindling minority
I see a decline in Fox and in Conservative strength. Chase Carey will take over Fox News on his Rupert's retirement. By the time Chase Carey I predict that the Fox News channel's rating will be only rating 3 or 4 instead of 1. I see the gradual trend against the establishment and the traditional values and the shock and fear tactics of the government to enforce servitude in America. No grand revolutions, just a gradual shift. It is not be welcome to all.
I'd agree that seems at least likely- and lovely- if I wasn't so worried that we'd end up hitting a tipping point before that's possible.
Another thing that might end up making a difference is the simple issue of *time.* Look at the ages of some of the crazier politicians (as well as the politicians in general. A lot of political issues aren't just conservative vs. republican issues; they're also generational ones (gay marriage is a very "current" and also a good/prime example).
A lot are also geographic. Damn, am I glad I don't live in the deep south. What state you live in definitely effects what kinds of people and information you're inundated with.
The Patriot laws and associated mindset around this - less citizen rights more government control - is the biggest problem in America at the moment. The powers that be really ought to pull their heads in.
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I'm told being morbidly obese is a disability. IMO those lazy pigs should be killed and harvested for their blubber.
As someone who is morbidly obese I agree that it is a disability. It can be a form of OCD or a response to another emotional disorder. It does limit my life and while I try to lose weight, it's not as simple as turning off a switch. Although I don't have any statistics on hand to cite, I believe the success rate in losing and keeping off weight is smaller than the success rate for stopping a drug addiction.
You IRL or Queen Victoria? I know that later in life Queenie had a 50+ inch waist as a pair of her pants survive to this day. Also she was 5ft nothing so must have been almost spherical.
See my response in the Blowing Off Steam Thread.
Your Majesty, were I in your glorious presence I would give you big hugs. JSYK :)
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Or the voters vote more responsibly
I suggest that they educate themselves, stop allowing fear and bigotry to motivate them. And don't vote down party lines because your church, union, parents or someone else tells you that you identify with a certain party.
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The Patriot laws and associated mindset around this - less citizen rights more government control - is the biggest problem in America at the moment. The powers that be really ought to pull their heads in.
Yeah, they're freakin' scary.
Why the fuck can't there be a political party that cares about responsibly trying to help people who need help, but doesn't feel the need to strip our rights and morally babysit us? I mean, I understand there's going to be a *little* overlap between any type of, for example, aide to the poor and increased government control over the people, because government intervention means the government is getting involved and therefore exerting power, but for fuck's sake, you'd think somewhere in the damn country we'd be able to find a person or two who was smart enough to think of some workable solutions to social problems that didn't also nanny us or Big Brother us.
Oh wait, because that wouldn't keep the status quo as effectively as running the country badly does.
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The Patriot laws and associated mindset around this - less citizen rights more government control - is the biggest problem in America at the moment. The powers that be really ought to pull their heads in.
Yeah, they're freakin' scary.
Why the fuck can't there be a political party that cares about responsibly trying to help people who need help, but doesn't feel the need to strip our rights and morally babysit us? I mean, I understand there's going to be a *little* overlap between any type of, for example, aide to the poor and increased government control over the people, because government intervention means the government is getting involved and therefore exerting power, but for fuck's sake, you'd think somewhere in the damn country we'd be able to find a person or two who was smart enough to think of some workable solutions to social problems that didn't also nanny us or Big Brother us.
Oh wait, because that wouldn't keep the status quo as effectively as running the country badly does.
Indeed.
problem is when you take away accountability from Police and Government Agencies, they become a law unto themselves and it becomes a compounding problem. 9/11 was awful but the measures put in place I think is piling a lot more pain over a longer period to America and it is a problem that feeds itself if left unchecked
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That's swift, Rage. Please, post that in every thread you have time to post it in until the forum goes under government surveillance.
I dare them to start doing shit like that more. Seriously. I think its about time for a clash, anyway. We the fucking people are the ones who get to decide how this country is run, not the elites.
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That's swift, Rage. Please, post that in every thread you have time to post it in until the forum goes under government surveillance.
I dare them to start doing shit like that more. Seriously. I think its about time for a clash, anyway. We the fucking people are the ones who get to decide how this country is run, not the elites.
ideally. Although, the elite has always run this country. It is up to we the people to decide (collectively) whether or not they are being responsible. If not, then revolution should happen. And there are many ways to meet the desired end? Murder should be the last option.
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That's swift, Rage. Please, post that in every thread you have time to post it in until the forum goes under government surveillance.
I dare them to start doing shit like that more. Seriously. I think its about time for a clash, anyway. We the fucking people are the ones who get to decide how this country is run, not the elites.
Sorry to disappoint you. The fucking people have never run any country for any appreciable length of time in the history of mankind. Power, money and sex rules.
Besides, "the people" have countless varying opinions and feelings. Not every opinion or feeling can run a country, hence the constant exchange of polite discussion, gun play and bombing.
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That was awesome.
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That's swift, Rage. Please, post that in every thread you have time to post it in until the forum goes under government surveillance.
I dare them to start doing shit like that more. Seriously. I think its about time for a clash, anyway. We the fucking people are the ones who get to decide how this country is run, not the elites.
Sorry to disappoint you. The fucking people have never run any country for any appreciable length of time in the history of mankind. Power, money and sex rules.
Besides, "the people" have countless varying opinions and feelings. Not every opinion or feeling can run a country, hence the constant exchange of polite discussion, gun play and bombing.
Yeah but the honest, unbiased will of the majority should rule. It doesn't. A tiny fraction of the population actually decides, and they do with clever politicing, control of media, (money). In my opinion, its time for those people to die. They are parasites, and do not have the right to make all the decisions. I want them dead. I want it to happen yesterday. I want their VAST fortunes redistributed among the human race. Nobody has the right to impose their will on the entire world. Nobody.
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That's swift, Rage. Please, post that in every thread you have time to post it in until the forum goes under government surveillance.
I dare them to start doing shit like that more. Seriously. I think its about time for a clash, anyway. We the fucking people are the ones who get to decide how this country is run, not the elites.
ideally. Although, the elite has always run this country. It is up to we the people to decide (collectively) whether or not they are being responsible. If not, then revolution should happen. And there are many ways to meet the desired end? Murder should be the last option.
ideally. Although, the elite has always run this country.
Why? Why the fuck are they just "allowed" to live as gods and make all the fucking decisions? What have they ever done for you? For me? What do they do about the massive increase in unemployment rates and poverty? They don't give a fuck. They would wipe their ass with silk while some five year old starved to death right next door to them, and not a single fuck would be given.
I'm fucking sick of this shit. It has always been time to set these bastards straight, ever since someone has hoarded the majority of the resources while everyone else went hungry. I don't give a shit if these individuals got it fair and square, through being clever. I don't give a fuck how smart someone is, no living being deserves to be rewarded like a million percent for their work. Sorry but fuck that. I think harder working people should receive benefits for their efforts, but having luxuries nobody else in the world does while hundreds of thousands go hungry... words can't describe my hatred.
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
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They aren't allowed. We condone it by our apathy, division, ignorance: we are motivated by fear that it could be worse.
The elite class is held to account by the masses when the elite ceases being responsible. I agree with you, rage, that they have been unchecked for far too long.
Without resorting to murder, how do we proceed?
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
Indeed it is insane and I agree with this post and much of your previous post. The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to beasts of the field who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own base desires at the expense of all others. In some human beasts this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most people have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the masses, their minds dulled by the opiates of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of fast food, celebrity culture and bad television. Most are also driven by the desire to conform and will not stick their heads above the parapet to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same dullards will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same enablers who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind obedience. The rich are predators who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with no thought for their prey. The masses are barely sentient sheep lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Call me cynical! :laugh:
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
Indeed it is insane and I agree with this post and much of your previous post. The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to beasts of the field who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own base desires at the expense of all others. In some human beasts this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most people have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the masses, their minds dulled by the opiates of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of fast food, celebrity culture and bad television. Most are also driven by the desire to conform and will not stick their heads above the parapet to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same dullards will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same enablers who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind obedience. The rich are predators who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with no thought for their prey. The masses are barely sentient sheep lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Call me cynical! :laugh:
hadron?
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They aren't allowed. We condone it by our apathy, division, ignorance: we are motivated by fear that it could be worse.
The elite class is held to account by the masses when the elite ceases being responsible. I agree with you, rage, that they have been unchecked for far too long.
Without resorting to murder, how do we proceed?
I really don't know. That's why I satirically stated I wanted them dead. I really don't know how else to get rid of this kind of thing.
The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to babymen who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own babyman desires at the expense of all others. In some babymen this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most babymen have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the babymen, their minds dulled by the paccie of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of da burger, honey booboo sketti and typical television. Most are also driven by the desire to shit and piss themselves and will not stick their heads above the crib bars to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same babymen will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same babymen who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind drooling googoogaga. The rich are smart babymen who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with gold dust laced milk in a gold baba with no thought for weaker babymen. The masses are barely sentient babymen lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Fixed to pronounce truth and hilarity. Pic fucking related. Rough estimation: over half (58%) of America "suffers" from varying degrees of whatever the fuck this guy thinks is wrong with him. Go to your local walmart, and stay there all day. Count how many people using those stupid motorized carts are morbidly obese. See if you can unsee the asscheeks hanging over the sides of the seat on that thing. Protip, you'd be lucky to count one that ISN'T fat.
Does that speak extremely loudly to anyone else? I hope so. It makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01475/baby-man4_1475644a.jpg)
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
Indeed it is insane and I agree with this post and much of your previous post. The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to beasts of the field who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own base desires at the expense of all others. In some human beasts this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most people have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the masses, their minds dulled by the opiates of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of fast food, celebrity culture and bad television. Most are also driven by the desire to conform and will not stick their heads above the parapet to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same dullards will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same enablers who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind obedience. The rich are predators who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with no thought for their prey. The masses are barely sentient sheep lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Call me cynical! :laugh:
hadron?
Collider? Sorry, you've got me lost there.
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Motherfucking ALPHA
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''Ünfit for work"reminds me of the incompetent old fart who said I couldn't get a job because I have aspergers and he had a family member with aspergers unable to work so I must be just like his family member. I hate the man. Louie Torres. Incompetent sack of shit who lost paperwork I signed and handed to him in person and claimed I never mailed it to him. I could do his job better. He works for an agency that helps disabled people find jobs. God I hate him.
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
Indeed it is insane and I agree with this post and much of your previous post. The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to beasts of the field who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own base desires at the expense of all others. In some human beasts this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most people have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the masses, their minds dulled by the opiates of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of fast food, celebrity culture and bad television. Most are also driven by the desire to conform and will not stick their heads above the parapet to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same dullards will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same enablers who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind obedience. The rich are predators who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with no thought for their prey. The masses are barely sentient sheep lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Call me cynical! :laugh:
So, the masses should rule, but not the irrational or easily-influences masses. So, the masses should not rule. The intellectual elite should rule. And the definition of "intellectual elite" should be left up to people like Rage.
Yes, we're coming up with workable solutions, here. Hell, we're also coming up with rational, logical, internally-consistent theories upon which to base our solutions.
They aren't allowed. We condone it by our apathy, division, ignorance: we are motivated by fear that it could be worse.
The elite class is held to account by the masses when the elite ceases being responsible. I agree with you, rage, that they have been unchecked for far too long.
Without resorting to murder, how do we proceed?
Perhaps it's also relevant here to ask, how do we proceed without being incarcerated and/or murdered, ourselves? Or, even, how do we proceed without being murdered?
The fear that it could be worse is a deterrent, and it's not exactly unrealistic. We do jail people without trial (and we did long before that bill got passed a couple years ago). We do hold people criminally accountable for thought crimes. God only know what else is happening that we're unaware of because it gets censored or filtered out.
If things ever reach a tipping point where some kind of social uprising actually does occur on a broad scale, how much worse will the political climate be for them, at that time? Worse before it gets better, if that's how you assume it will go.
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I hear you. It's like when they go after the head of a street gang a vacuum fills the void and generally an even more brutal leader emerges because it is a brutal enterprise.
People are like that. And those that lust for power tend to be psychopaths.
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I think one of the first steps is to advocate for a better transition program and incentives for people getting off disability.
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I think one of the first steps is to advocate for a better transition program and incentives for people getting off disability.
you just did.
With unemployment around 8% and real wages stagnant over the last thirty years, why should we?
Welfare to work and outsourcing if jobs has been a nightmare for the American worker. All you are doing is increasing the competition (more available workers) into a limited resource (decent paying labor intensive jobs). All this will do is further enslave the American worker and strangle out the middle class.
The first step, IMHO, is to have a real discussion, which produces real solutions about how wealth is distributed. Otherwise, income inequality is going to strangle the middle class and America is going to turn into any other haves and have not countries.
America will always be wealthy. But if we continue to squeeze out its middle class (redistribute up) then America loses its exceptionalism.
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
Indeed it is insane and I agree with this post and much of your previous post. The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to beasts of the field who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own base desires at the expense of all others. In some human beasts this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most people have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the masses, their minds dulled by the opiates of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of fast food, celebrity culture and bad television. Most are also driven by the desire to conform and will not stick their heads above the parapet to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same dullards will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same enablers who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind obedience. The rich are predators who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with no thought for their prey. The masses are barely sentient sheep lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Call me cynical! :laugh:
So, the masses should rule, but not the irrational or easily-influences masses. So, the masses should not rule. The intellectual elite should rule. And the definition of "intellectual elite" should be left up to people like Rage.
Yes, we're coming up with workable solutions, here. Hell, we're also coming up with rational, logical, internally-consistent theories upon which to base our solutions.
They aren't allowed. We condone it by our apathy, division, ignorance: we are motivated by fear that it could be worse.
The elite class is held to account by the masses when the elite ceases being responsible. I agree with you, rage, that they have been unchecked for far too long.
Without resorting to murder, how do we proceed?
Perhaps it's also relevant here to ask, how do we proceed without being incarcerated and/or murdered, ourselves? Or, even, how do we proceed without being murdered?
The fear that it could be worse is a deterrent, and it's not exactly unrealistic. We do jail people without trial (and we did long before that bill got passed a couple years ago). We do hold people criminally accountable for thought crimes. God only know what else is happening that we're unaware of because it gets censored or filtered out.
If things ever reach a tipping point where some kind of social uprising actually does occur on a broad scale, how much worse will the political climate be for them, at that time? Worse before it gets better, if that's how you assume it will go.
In my post I was actually writing off all of humanity, not hinting at some breed of intellectual übermenschen who are capable of rule. Our limitations make utopia unattainable.
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Its fucking insane, and I am certain everyone capable of rational human thought knows it.
Indeed it is insane and I agree with this post and much of your previous post. The problem is though that the majority of human beings are no different to beasts of the field who simply act on the impulse to satisfy their own base desires at the expense of all others. In some human beasts this translates to wiping your arse with silk while children starve, as you put it. Most people have limited awareness outside their own restricted circle of consciousness and this accounts also for the apathy of the masses, their minds dulled by the opiates of the day, be it the religion cited by Marx or the modern religions of fast food, celebrity culture and bad television. Most are also driven by the desire to conform and will not stick their heads above the parapet to protest the status quo for fear of being targeted as different. These same dullards will also follow rules and laws merely because they are posited by figures of authority, these are the same enablers who allowed the Holocaust to occur through their inaction and blind obedience. The rich are predators who devour and destroy those below them, they fill their bellies with no thought for their prey. The masses are barely sentient sheep lacking the intellectual capacity and will to drive change.
Call me cynical! :laugh:
So, the masses should rule, but not the irrational or easily-influences masses. So, the masses should not rule. The intellectual elite should rule. And the definition of "intellectual elite" should be left up to people like Rage.
Yes, we're coming up with workable solutions, here. Hell, we're also coming up with rational, logical, internally-consistent theories upon which to base our solutions.
They aren't allowed. We condone it by our apathy, division, ignorance: we are motivated by fear that it could be worse.
The elite class is held to account by the masses when the elite ceases being responsible. I agree with you, rage, that they have been unchecked for far too long.
Without resorting to murder, how do we proceed?
Perhaps it's also relevant here to ask, how do we proceed without being incarcerated and/or murdered, ourselves? Or, even, how do we proceed without being murdered?
The fear that it could be worse is a deterrent, and it's not exactly unrealistic. We do jail people without trial (and we did long before that bill got passed a couple years ago). We do hold people criminally accountable for thought crimes. God only know what else is happening that we're unaware of because it gets censored or filtered out.
If things ever reach a tipping point where some kind of social uprising actually does occur on a broad scale, how much worse will the political climate be for them, at that time? Worse before it gets better, if that's how you assume it will go.
In my post I was actually writing off all of humanity, not hinting at some breed of intellectual übermenschen who are capable of rule. Our limitations make utopia unattainable. There are no workable solutions to the human condition.
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So, the masses should rule, but not the irrational or easily-influences masses. So, the masses should not rule. The intellectual elite should rule. And the definition of "intellectual elite" should be left up to people like Rage.
Yes, we're coming up with workable solutions, here. Hell, we're also coming up with rational, logical, internally-consistent theories upon which to base our solutions.
Nice argument. :green:
That's not really what I think though. I'm afraid I disagree because I do think the masses should rule. Everyone has the right to be heard. Everyone has the right to live happily.
I'd like to tell you about a man who ran for presidency and lost. This guy was a decent fellow. He was intelligent, he cared about the individual, and i'd love to vote for him. As part of his campaign geared for the "working" man, he refused to accept any contributions over 50 dollars US. Sadly, this is the reason he lost. Not just anyone can be president when you actually look into how a president gets elected.
The guy didn't make it into the debates because he did not raise enough money. Apparently you need TONS of money to get national recognition, or you are just a peon and your voice is silenced.
Therefore, only slimy pieces of crap will be elected as president of the united states. The masses do not have a voice. Presidents and government are merely a mouthpiece for whoever is richest during their term. You gonna take that shit? :eyebrows:
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I think one of the first steps is to advocate for a better transition program and incentives for people getting off disability.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/disabilityresearch/wi/generalinfo.htm (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/disabilityresearch/wi/generalinfo.htm)
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So, the masses should rule, but not the irrational or easily-influences masses. So, the masses should not rule. The intellectual elite should rule. And the definition of "intellectual elite" should be left up to people like Rage.
Yes, we're coming up with workable solutions, here. Hell, we're also coming up with rational, logical, internally-consistent theories upon which to base our solutions.
Nice argument. :green:
That's not really what I think though. I'm afraid I disagree because I do think the masses should rule. Everyone has the right to be heard. Everyone has the right to live happily.
I'd like to tell you about a man who ran for presidency and lost. This guy was a decent fellow. He was intelligent, he cared about the individual, and i'd love to vote for him. As part of his campaign geared for the "working" man, he refused to accept any contributions over 50 dollars US. Sadly, this is the reason he lost. Not just anyone can be president when you actually look into how a president gets elected.
The guy didn't make it into the debates because he did not raise enough money. Apparently you need TONS of money to get national recognition, or you are just a peon and your voice is silenced.
Therefore, only slimy pieces of crap will be elected as president of the united states. The masses do not have a voice. Presidents and government are merely a mouthpiece for whoever is richest during their term. You gonna take that shit? :eyebrows:
you are too focused on the top. The president is elected by walstreet. The president is the monster and walstreet is the head. How do you kill the monster....cut off its head.
Do you bank with B of A?
You want to change things? Don't focus on the president. Focus rather on local elections.
Walstreet spelled this way on purpose?
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So, the masses should rule, but not the irrational or easily-influences masses. So, the masses should not rule. The intellectual elite should rule. And the definition of "intellectual elite" should be left up to people like Rage.
Yes, we're coming up with workable solutions, here. Hell, we're also coming up with rational, logical, internally-consistent theories upon which to base our solutions.
Nice argument. :green:
That's not really what I think though. I'm afraid I disagree because I do think the masses should rule. Everyone has the right to be heard. Everyone has the right to live happily.
I'd like to tell you about a man who ran for presidency and lost. This guy was a decent fellow. He was intelligent, he cared about the individual, and i'd love to vote for him. As part of his campaign geared for the "working" man, he refused to accept any contributions over 50 dollars US. Sadly, this is the reason he lost. Not just anyone can be president when you actually look into how a president gets elected.
The guy didn't make it into the debates because he did not raise enough money. Apparently you need TONS of money to get national recognition, or you are just a peon and your voice is silenced.
Therefore, only slimy pieces of crap will be elected as president of the united states. The masses do not have a voice. Presidents and government are merely a mouthpiece for whoever is richest during their term. You gonna take that shit? :eyebrows:
you are too focused on the top. The president is elected by walstreet. The president is the monster and walstreet is the head. How do you kill the monster....cut off its head.
Do you bank with B of A?
You want to change things? Don't focus on the president. Focus rather on local elections.
Walstreet spelled this way on purpose?
Nono I was just using that as an example. I was relating a personal experience of mine as a punctuation to my statement. America is not free. The "American dream" is false advertising. Not just anyone can be elite, or the president, or make the real decisions.
The working man is merely that. A docile workforce to be used as a well oiled machine for the purpose of cranking out products and services that make a select few families SHITLOADS of money. That money doesn't trickle downhill man. It WHOOSHES up, and the stuff we get is crumbs that our lords and masters decide we've earned by working 100000x harder in a year than they will in their entire life.
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I think it can be argued that we are less free because we consider ourselves to be the most free.
Americans are so lame....we lie to ourselves as a coping mechanism.
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I think it can be argued that we are less free because we consider ourselves to be the most free.
Americans are so lame....we lie to ourselves as a coping mechanism.
I'm pretty sure most people do that.
American lies are... well, we do have our own unique flavor to 'em, don't we?
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I think one of the first steps is to advocate for a better transition program and incentives for people getting off disability.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/disabilityresearch/wi/generalinfo.htm (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/disabilityresearch/wi/generalinfo.htm)
Hm, that deserves a thorough read. It's pretty clear what we have now isn't working, but I don't know the why.
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With unemployment around 8% and real wages stagnant over the last thirty years, why should we?
Welfare to work and outsourcing if jobs has been a nightmare for the American worker. All you are doing is increasing the competition (more available workers) into a limited resource (decent paying labor intensive jobs). All this will do is further enslave the American worker and strangle out the middle class.
The first step, IMHO, is to have a real discussion, which produces real solutions about how wealth is distributed. Otherwise, income inequality is going to strangle the middle class and America is going to turn into any other haves and have not countries.
America will always be wealthy. But if we continue to squeeze out its middle class (redistribute up) then America loses its exceptionalism.
Yeah. The outsourcing thing.
I wonder if that one has to be solved at a federal level. Technology has made it too easy for corporations to take advantages of the conditions offered by more corrupt governments than the USA's, without facing repercussions from first world powers.
I disagree that America will always be wealthy... all nations rise and fall and there's no reason to think the current world setup is any different. The strongest base of power in the world has changed over and over throughout history.
I mean why not, if you have offices in Dallas, Mumbai, Beijing and London, why not take advantage of the cheap labor offered in one place and the educated/networked manager types in another? What incentive do companies have to distribute anything fairly? And what indeed would be fair? A kind of affirmative action program based on standard of living rather than skin color? That seems implausible but I can't think of anything that might work better.
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I often wondered about if America will always be an empire.
Unless we are destroyed by war I bet we will until a one world government takes control in the next century.
I think with the concentration of information that we will always be able to correct our way. Shit these days are down to a science. We can learn from others mistakes.
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I often wondered about if America will always be an empire.
Unless we are destroyed by war I bet we will until a one world government takes control in the next century.
I think with the concentration of information that we will always be able to correct our way. Shit these days are down to a science. We can learn from others mistakes.
I'm afraid we'll be like most peoples in history and reject the "learn from other's mistakes." Can = ability, will = action.
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It's no use working in Sweden - my dad has to pay 50000 kronor in tax arrears this year, on top of the quarter of a million kronor or so that he has already paid :thumbdn:
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It's no use working in Sweden - my dad has to pay 50000 kronor in tax arrears this year, on top of the quarter of a million kronor or so that he has already paid :thumbdn:
And why is that? Why so much? Don't you wonder? ;)
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Ah, but it would actually be cheaper for him to give me 100000 kronor/year directly instead of me being on disability, if he didn't have to pay tax.
But it's pretty sick in Sweden: almost 10 million people. 4½ million are retired or on disability.
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Ah, but it would actually be cheaper for him to give me 100000 kronor/year directly instead of me being on disability, if he didn't have to pay tax.
But it's pretty sick in Sweden: almost 10 million people. 4½ million are retired or on disability.
(http://narwhaler.com/img/zt/c/rage-face-guys-using-computer-ZtCukB.jpg)
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Ah, but it would actually be cheaper for him to give me 100000 kronor/year directly instead of me being on disability, if he didn't have to pay tax.
But it's pretty sick in Sweden: almost 10 million people. 4½ million are retired or on disability.
Maybe it's something in the lutefisk? :dunno:
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:toporly:
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It's no use working in Sweden - my dad has to pay 50000 kronor in tax arrears this year, on top of the quarter of a million kronor or so that he has already paid :thumbdn:
That's damn near how much I make in a year!!! :yikes:
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Ah, but it would actually be cheaper for him to give me 100000 kronor/year directly instead of me being on disability, if he didn't have to pay tax.
But it's pretty sick in Sweden: almost 10 million people. 4½ million are retired or on disability.
How the fuck do they sustain that? Is your government flipping the fuck out right now and calling the whole thing a pyramid scheme, or does it all work out OK?
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It's no use working in Sweden - my dad has to pay 50000 kronor in tax arrears this year, on top of the quarter of a million kronor or so that he has already paid :thumbdn:
Pure socialism does not work. :thumbdn:
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Ah, but it would actually be cheaper for him to give me 100000 kronor/year directly instead of me being on disability, if he didn't have to pay tax.
But it's pretty sick in Sweden: almost 10 million people. 4½ million are retired or on disability.
How the fuck do they sustain that? Is your government flipping the fuck out right now and calling the whole thing a pyramid scheme, or does it all work out OK?
It has worked this way for many years. The taxes used to be even higher, though. The current government isn't a socialist one, and they try to make as many people as possible to work, sometimes even people who are too sick to work, but if you have an "old" retirement or disability pension, you keep it.
If nothing changes, I think the Swedish welfare systems will collaps within about 20 years or so.
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1 kronor = $0.15 Australian dollar.
100 000 kronors equal about what I paid in taxes last year. Tax is a bastard but a necessary evil.
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100000 kronor is what I get in disability. My dad pays 300000 kronor or more in tax.
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Ah OK. Misread. Tax sucks.
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1 kronor = $0.15 Australian dollar.
100 000 kronors equal about what I paid in taxes last year. Tax is a bastard but a necessary evil.
true
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Ah OK. Misread. Tax sucks.
oops.
I do that!
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Disability...*sigh*
Some people I know who are on it, have health problems because of poor decisions (drug abuse, addiction, over eating, etc). Taxes ought to go towards prevention...which [according to a recent seminar] involves:
*Public health campaigns more effective than fastfood campaigns
*Urban development which involved sidewalks, parks, and playgrounds to encourage safe activity
*General health practitioner policy changes which gives docs more time with patients (better quality healthcare)
*Proper food labeling in restaurants
*Lowering prices for healthy options, while increasing prices for unhealthy options
*Better access to health clinics and grocery stores in rural, as well as low-income urban environments
:flyingbat:
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Life becomes a culmination of he choices we've made....and some luck.
What are we to do with those that made poor choices. Let them suffer?
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Life becomes a culmination of he choices we've made....and some luck.
What are we to do with those that made poor choices. Let them suffer?
Obviously not, because if we did, chances are the next generation will just make worse decisions (continue the cycle)...we'll slip into a downward slope of bad choices on greater and great scales...
That's why we have to figure out why bad choices are made, and do something to facilitate better choices. Sometimes, all that is required is the opportunity to exercise good judgement.
But that's easier said than explained, and easier explained than implemented.
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Communist China can handle these problems more efficiently.
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Communist China can handle these problems more efficiently.
Lol.
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It's true.
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Life becomes a culmination of he choices we've made....and some luck.
What are we to do with those that made poor choices. Let them suffer?
Yeah, actually. In a free society, people should benefit from both the positive and negative consequences of their actions. Its called being an adult and facing the music when you fuck things up.
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Life becomes a culmination of he choices we've made....and some luck.
What are we to do with those that made poor choices. Let them suffer?
Yeah, actually. In a free society, people should benefit from both the positive and negative consequences of their actions. Its called being an adult and facing the music when you fuck things up.
exactly.
I just love how in America we allowed too big to fail walstreet go bankrupt....oh wait, that didn't happen.
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Life becomes a culmination of he choices we've made....and some luck.
What are we to do with those that made poor choices. Let them suffer?
Yeah, actually. In a free society, people should benefit from both the positive and negative consequences of their actions. Its called being an adult and facing the music when you fuck things up.
exactly.
I just love how in America we allowed too big to fail walstreet go bankrupt....oh wait, that didn't happen.
QUIT MAKING SHIT UP, YOU RABBLEROUSER! WHERES MY FUCKING LAWYER?
(http://www.hubba.com/wp-content/uploads/iStock_000017393041Small.jpg)
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The guy in that picture ^ has a really crooked lower tooth. :orly:
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The guy in that picture ^ has a really crooked lower tooth. :orly:
LOL!
:indeed:
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The guy in that picture ^ has a really crooked lower tooth. :orly:
its a brittish thang.
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The guy in that picture ^ has a really crooked lower tooth. :orly:
its a brittish thang.
I remember watching something on BBC once, and my father and I were laughing at their teeth.
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The newest generation of brittish folks have nicer teeth. I guess they got tired of the jokes.
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The newest generation of brittish folks have nicer teeth. I guess they got tired of the jokes.
I did notice that actually. Interesting...maybe we should all tease them for their noses and see what happens in a generation :P
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The newest generation of brittish folks have nicer teeth. I guess they got tired of the jokes.
I did notice that actually. Interesting...maybe we should all tease them for their noses and see what happens in a generation :P
or make fun of the fact the wear too many clothes. Maybe they'll all run around nude.
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The newest generation of brittish folks have nicer teeth. I guess they got tired of the jokes.
I did notice that actually. Interesting...maybe we should all tease them for their noses and see what happens in a generation :P
or make fun of the fact the wear too many clothes. Maybe they'll all run around nude.
They can be called the Great Tits of the Nudity Kingdom lolll
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The newest generation of brittish folks have nicer teeth. I guess they got tired of the jokes.
I did notice that actually. Interesting...maybe we should all tease them for their noses and see what happens in a generation :P
or make fun of the fact the wear too many clothes. Maybe they'll all run around nude.
They can be called the Great Tits of the Nudity Kingdom lolll
bodie, will you be first?
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The newest generation of brittish folks have nicer teeth. I guess they got tired of the jokes.
I did notice that actually. Interesting...maybe we should all tease them for their noses and see what happens in a generation :P
or make fun of the fact the wear too many clothes. Maybe they'll all run around nude.
They can be called the Great Tits of the Nudity Kingdom lolll
British girls have nice big tits.
(http://thebustyblogsite.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Terri-Jane.jpg)
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Hmm...all I can think about is the vein in one breast and the pimple on the other. :/
I would rather see the well oiled bouncing tits. Those big ones look like they will tear her skin if she bounces them. :-[
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Hmm...all I can think about is the vein in one breast and the pimple on the other. :/
I would rather see the well oiled bouncing tits. Those big ones look like they will tear her skin if she bounces them. :-[
It's well established that El Pussydente has horrible taste in boobs.
All he posts are chubby women with disgusting cow udders hanging off their chest.
:puke:
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Hmm...all I can think about is the vein in one breast and the pimple on the other. :/
I would rather see the well oiled bouncing tits. Those big ones look like they will tear her skin if she bounces them. :-[
It's well established that El Pussydente has horrible taste in boobs.
All he posts are chubby women with disgusting cow udders hanging off their chest.
:puke:
LMAO!
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He's an actually very nice pair of large, natural titties. :eyebrows:
http://www.hungarian-babes.com/gallery/katerina-konec-hugetits-pussy/05.jpg (http://www.hungarian-babes.com/gallery/katerina-konec-hugetits-pussy/05.jpg)
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Umm...are such photos allowed here?
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Yes.
She's over 18, isn't she?
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Yes.
She's over 18, isn't she?
Yes she is.
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Hmm...all I can think about is the vein in one breast and the pimple on the other. :/
I would rather see the well oiled bouncing tits. Those big ones look like they will tear her skin if she bounces them. :-[
It's well established that El Pussydente has horrible taste in boobs.
All he posts are chubby women with disgusting cow udders hanging off their chest.
:puke:
It is well established that fapheap posts ladyboy porn.
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Hmm...all I can think about is the vein in one breast and the pimple on the other. :/
I would rather see the well oiled bouncing tits. Those big ones look like they will tear her skin if she bounces them. :-[
Veins on boobs are nice.
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Yes.
She's over 18, isn't she?
Yes she is.
:facepalm2:
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Large breasted ladies get back problems. They are unfit fot work.