Author Topic: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.  (Read 12298 times)

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Offline Walkie

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #240 on: August 16, 2007, 03:30:54 PM »
i just plussed you walkie.  i have never gheyed you

Ouch! Now I'm feeling ereally bad about my forthcoming post; whichis pretty much a painfully serious all-inclusive rant (and you're one of the villains of the piece, sad to say, no evading it ) and it's beginning to feel distinclty out-of-place  on this thread.

But then I worked all night, and half-the-day on it, and I feel, for various reasons that it needs to be posted (one obvious reason being that various people demanded explanations of me...as if aspies aren't inclined to over-explain at the best of times)

Ah, well, I expect we'll always forgive each other, huh?

Thanks, McJ  :)

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #241 on: August 16, 2007, 03:36:45 PM »
And through the dale.

Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean :
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war !

To grandmother's house he went?

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #242 on: August 16, 2007, 03:44:04 PM »
if you want the whole poem i can post it. it's my favorite poem.

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
    Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round :
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree ;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

    But oh ! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
    Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover !
    A savage place ! as holy and enchanted
    As e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted
    By woman wailing for her demon-lover !
    And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
    As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
    A mighty fountain momently was forced :
    Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
    Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
    Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher's flail :
    And 'mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
    It flung up momently the sacred river.
    Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
    Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
    Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
    And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean :
    And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
    Ancestral voices prophesying war !
    The shadow of the dome of pleasure
    Floated midway on the waves ;
    Where was heard the mingled measure
    From the fountain and the caves.
It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice !
    A damsel with a dulcimer
    In a vision once I saw :
    It was an Abyssinian maid,
    And on her dulcimer she played,
    Singing of Mount Abora.
    Could I revive within me
    Her symphony and song,
    To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware ! Beware !
His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.

http://etext.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Kubla_Khan.html
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
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"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

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Offline Callaway

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #243 on: August 16, 2007, 03:46:06 PM »
if you want the whole poem i can post it. it's my favorite poem.

...

http://etext.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Kubla_Khan.html

Thanks Milla.  I love that one too.

 :plus:

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #244 on: August 16, 2007, 03:46:53 PM »
you have good taste. :plus:
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #245 on: August 16, 2007, 03:51:49 PM »
 :police:  ...and this thread STILL twitches. I'm just not getting the respect these days. :tantrum:

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #246 on: August 16, 2007, 03:52:56 PM »
:police:  ...and this thread STILL twitches. I'm just not getting the respect these days. :tantrum:

 :boobs:
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

Offline Calandale

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #247 on: August 16, 2007, 03:57:32 PM »
if you want the whole poem i can post it. it's my favorite poem.

...

http://etext.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Kubla_Khan.html

Thanks Milla.  I love that one too.

 :plus:

I love reading Coleridge aloud.

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #248 on: August 16, 2007, 03:58:25 PM »
me too! i obsess over that poem. it's like a stim. the rhythm of it is soothing. i could read it over and over.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

Offline Walkie

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #249 on: August 16, 2007, 04:03:54 PM »
Bear in mind when you are talking about me that I am often pissed while on here. And what you quoted I believe were two different situtations.



Oh, alright.
:plus: (in spirit, at least. I know it makes no difference)

Actually, i feel like plussing nearly everyone right now.

I feel like plussing Bjork, several times over for her immensely gutsy reply to me(hope you're listenng , Bjork,, I s'pect I'll spoil the good atmosphere - though that might be figment of my own imagination- with my next post *sigh* , cause i haven't modified it, and I don't think I should, 'cause I'd never get around to posting it , for one thing.)

well thanks for the compliment. i appreciated your post as well even though the word naive makes me see red. :P

Yeah, doesn't it just! <yikes!>  

But, seriously,  I really appreciated he insight into your POV (I evidently don't share you POV on that word, but I can certainly relate to it, now)


Quote
modify your next post if it's not what you want to say, otherwise post it. there's no hurry, here in cyberland there is no time. :P

Good point. But, then,  here in Walkieland, there's always the danger that I'll chicken out, if I don't hit "post" pretty fast.
I have two basic problems with that post:
1) I was really pissed-off at the time of writing and it shows. (But then that post of yours, for one handy example- goes to demonstrate that it can often be a good thing, in the final analysis,  to write when pissed-off.  So I'm not about to revise it, on that score. It just  makes me hesitant)
2) I was carrying on from my post to you, and thus adressing you directly, at intervals. But, if you can live with the fact that it's somewhat out-of-place to address it to you, and make a few allowances, I'd rather leave it like that. It's not hugely critical of you. It  mostly concerns other people, in fact.   I sjust seem to to be more comfortable adressing one particular individual, than adressing a mass of people, though I'm attempting to answer a mass of people. Anyway,  if I modified it now, it would probabably keep me up all night again, and I'd end up modifying the tone in such a way as to make it artificial, I think.  Hmm, Best delivered raw, huh? In spite of it's faults.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 04:13:05 PM by DrunkardsWalk »

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #250 on: August 16, 2007, 04:10:31 PM »
sure if you feel it's best to post it go ahead.

we can do this pissed off thing all over again. :P
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

Offline Walkie

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #251 on: August 16, 2007, 04:59:01 PM »
sure if you feel it's best to post it go ahead.

we can do this pissed off thing all over again. :P

Thanks, Bjork . ...um ...Bork?   ??? (have I ben mis-spelling your name, all this time?  eek)

anyway, thanks ;D

[Ok. Here ‘s that post that kept me up all night.  Frankly i’d sooner join in with posting  poems right now but it’s probably best to  get this off my chest. Hopefully, it  explains more than it offends., especially since I  really don’t want a long, involved discussion about it. I don't think I have anything left to ad anymore,  after this, not even if this discussion continues (not sure, but it looks dead to me, right now). And I'm not really interested in demanding any more answers from Bjork. I think I gave her quite  enough of an (accidental) roasting, already.
(continuing from my earlier post to Bjork....)


This story began, for me, shortly after the demise of IntensityI, when I made friends with a man who was very badly hurt (well ,in the midst of a breakdown, IMO, speaking from experience, and without exaggeration).  It was  clear that a number of people on nlands and Intensity had contributed to his pain, but I wasn’t inclined to believe that any one of those [people had deliberately set out to hurt him, and neither was Pyraxis (who’s friendship with him deepened at around the same time)   I don’t think either one of us was interested in assigning blame to anyone, just doing our best to be supportive  He really should’ve had professional support, but as a psychologist himself, he was pretty damned wary of other psychologists. He was pretty  wary of people who offered him friendship , too, come to that, especially Pyraxis (she does something of Lucifer’s style about her, after all) , but she slowly earned his trust. And mine.

We talked at length about various people who’d played a significant role in neuroman’s life, but not much about Lucifer.  I didn’t think her part was especially significant at first (a naïve assumption, on my part, based on the fact that she seldom came up in conversation) but I’ve recently  come round to another view . That was pretty much in parallel with Pyraxis  calling out Vivi (an event that surprised me as much as anyone) I was just a few days ahead of the rest of the people on this board , in seeing those logs., and the impact of seeing them was relfected in my posts(which quickly lost whatever neutrality thety had to begin with)   In the course of reading them (and chatting about it, in private)  I’ve come to   agree with Pyraxis POV: Lucifer’s assault on neuroman’s mind was pre-wanked like a sex-starved chimp  deliberate. I’m pretty convinced that Lucifer hacked Intensity too, just as Pyraxis claims (though I doubt it’s possible to prove that conclusively) And for reasons which I hope to make clear (and probably won’t succeed , but not for lack of trying)  I feel obligated to say so.

I don’t expect you’ll agree with Pyaxis, Bjork, , not even if you read those logs, and acceopt that they’re genuine (If they were faked, don’t you think that Lucifer  would’ve  been the first to say so ?) I don’t tthink that the evidence is strong enough  to stand up in this kind of “court”, nor to convince Lucifer’s friends. . I fear that all that’s gonna come of this call-out, is a lot of bad feeling., and pain on both sides. But maybe I’m wrong.= about that.  I hope I’m wrong  about that, and  I can think of ways in which this might do more good than harm, in the long run,  after all. (fingers crossed)

Anyway, I’ve come down off my fence, in  full support  of Pyraxis, because both she and neuroman are friends of mine.,and neither one of them has anything like the full-blooded support that Lucifer has. And I agree with her that publishing those logs was justifiable, under the circmstances.  I’m not sure it was sensible, but it was justifiable, IMO.

 If  Pytraxis and neuroman  only had more support, I ‘d leave well alone, ‘cause I don’t think my own support is worth very much on Intensity,. I don’t have any credibility round here, so  I’m afraid that my support only harms her case.But maybe it helps her morale. That swings it. I understand  all too well how painful it can be to be to be in  their  position, and how much it can mean to have someone on your side.

You’re thinking of Pryaxis and neuroman as the aggressors in this dispute,  so you probably don’t care if they get hurt by it, but I care,  of course;

 I can well understand your feeling that I’m “butting in”. I expected to hear that left-right-and-centre, ‘cause, unlike neuroman, Pyraxis and virtually everybody else round here, I can’t claim to know Lucifer. I  surely wouldn’t have the nerve to express an opinion on Lucifer…except that I think it would be craven of me to keep out of this, all things considered. And, as someone who’s more familiar with the aftermath of the Intensity debacle  (from neuroman’s POV, that is)  than anyone else here (save Pyraxis, and neuroman himself) I do have a few relevant things to say, after all. 

In fact,   since you ‘re a friend of  Lucifer,  Bjork, but you don’t know neuroman,  I suppose you and I have approximately equal rights to butt in,. (I’m glad I though of that. That makes me feel better about it  :))

I wrote a long post to McJ, in which I tried to put these allegations against Vivi into context. I was hoping he (and others) would appreciate, at the very least, why Pyraxis is so flaming angry with Lucifer, even if they believe  that she’s wrong.to blame Vivi.  But that post  only  got dismissed by McJ as political propoganda , and otherwise ignored.

Huh. Maybe it’s the way I tell ‘em?  When McJ lists all the ills he blames neuroman for, I  think he’s wrong to blame neuroman for all that, (and I know too well that  his self-righteous tirades against neuroman are having a destructive effect, what’s more)… and yet I can understand his feelings, in that light. I can even symopathise with his feelings, and so can Pyraxis. Believe it or not , she’s even acted as McJ’s apologist, on several occasions, at the risk of undermining neuroman’s trust in her. She’s that fair-minded, believe it or not. 

When I made it clear that neuroman wound up in a state that I can only describe as a “breakdown” as a result of all these pressures. I  naively  imagine  that people might be as generous to Pyraxis, as Pyraxis has been to McJ and others.  I imagined they might say to themselves “And Pyraxis blames Lucifer for that? Oh! No wonder she’s so angry with Lucifer ” irrespective of whether they agree with Pyraxis’ POV. 

The hell they do. Even when people point out that Pyraxis and neuroman are in a relationship, IRL, doe that help to validate her feelings? . Oh, no, not in the least  That just invalidates her POV, apparently (whilst Lucifer’s close friends claim that gives them a more valid POV than anybody else. And no-one pulls them up for hypocrisy) Because Pyraxis’  feelings  are clearly sincere, for a change, they become  a target for all kinds of snide, belittling remarks, from Lucifer and everyone else.

And you expect her to care about Lucifer’s feelings? Well, it really looks to me like Lucifer already has a lot more  sympathy than most people ever get. and it’s high time Pyraxis got a slice of that pie. Not to mention neuroman. -you know that “sissy lal-la who’s hiding behind his mama’s skirts” .(That shows how much you care about his feelings, doesn’t it? and, btw,  what makes you think he isn’t here, Bjork? He’s actually posted several times over, and he didn’t make it hard to guess his identity). Is that how you normally speak to a victim of abuse?

Yes, that’s what he is. A victim of abuse. You can  conclude  the abuse was unintentiional , if you like, but that doesn’t make it any less real; and  that doesn’t undo the damage. Maybe confronting Lucifer  (with Pyraxis’; help) will help  undo the damage. That’s one good reason why it might be worth pursuing this fiasco, after all..

You say it a personal matter, between thsee two. I wish it was that simple.  But it’s all bound up with the fate of Intensity isn’t it? And who’s the public whipping-boy  for Intensity’s demise? Neuroman.is. Just consider for a moment that he might be unjustly accused of that, and imagine how that would feel..

In a bitter dispurte like this, it’s usually possible to sympathise with both points of view. In my experience,  Pyraxis usually does have sympathy with both sides (not that she goes around with sympathy written all over her , but come down on somebody hard enough, and that usually brings it out, doesn’t it?)  How many others here make that effort? IMO, she’s not  only supporting somebody she’s close to,  but she’s  investing her sympathy  where it’s actually needed (as usual) . When Lucifer is down, or under attack, she fhas loads of people rallying around her, making sympathetic noises. By contrast, when Neuroman’s been down, or under attack, he’s had so much “tough love” from those who supposedly care, that he can’t tell his friends from his enemies. He’s been reduced to hiding from his friend and enemies alike. Why does that happen? Because he looks like a “sissy-la-la” next to Lucifer? Huh  I dunno, but that’s pretty damned sad , if so. . That’s just the kind of thing that happens in the playground isn’t it?

If you think that Lucifer is in danger of breaking under the pressure ,just  because one ex-friend of hers is calling her out (well, maybe two, counting Scrapheap) , and a few relatively  insignificant members like Hardon and myself are taking her side, and getting predictably hammerered ; well, then, Lucifer  must be a whole lot  weaker than neuroman is,, because it took a lot more than that to break him. He had  the people he thought of as his closest  friends,relentless finding  fault with him, and making him into a scapegoat before he buckled under the strain.

Well, I do believe (like I said) that a real friend is willing to accept that their friend isn’t perfect, and that they’re sometimes culpable.  But that’s surely going much too far towards the opposite extreme. What the heck could he have possibly done to deserve all that? His biggest crime at this juncture, appears to be, that he finally buckled under the strain, couldn’t cope very well with his remaining responsibilities, and couldn’t explain himself to McJ and Sophist’ s satisfaction. Heck, he could barely even talk, a lot of the time. He was reduced to that state of  “typing random characters”, again and again and again. And still McJ pursued him wtih his aggressive “tough love” approach, regardless.

Yeah, I‘m sure Pyraxis would be baying for McJ’s blood as well, if she didn’t believe he was well-intentioned. Maybe McJ’s approaches were so devastating , partly because they were too reminiscent of Lucifer? And maybe Lucifer’s approach was so devastating, because it was too reminscent of other things, in his past, IRL (things you’d definitely call abusive, Bjork, without a doubt) )  Like most victims of abuse, he didn’t ever speak out against those things. And maybe speaking out against Lucifer will help him come to terms with all that. It often happens that way. What’s that word? Ah! “Catharsis” . But that’s psychobabble, I suppose. It’s bloody hard to make a statement  on this kind of thing without using a bit of psychobabble.

Maybe Lucifer  really is as vulnerable  as you seem to be suggesting; but if one or two people choose to care about neuroman’s feelings, rather than Lucifer’s , when it comes to crunch; sorry, but I still think that’s only fair and humane. Come the day when Lucifer is actually running short of sympathy, she’ll probably get some sympathy from Pyraxis, (heck, Pyraxis  even took Hiro’s part, just because nobody else did, and she thought that even Hiro deserved a sympathetic hearing) but I really  don’t think that day is ever coming I think Lucifer will always have sympathisers, come what may

Well, anyway, if this doesn’t explain, to people’s satisfaction,  why I’m fighting in Pyraxis’ corner, I give up. Just call me another cold-hearted, manipulative  bitch who doesn’t give a damn about poor Lucifer’s feelings. . I can live with that, ‘cause I ‘ve  got  friends who believe in me.  So does Lucifer  (loads of ‘em).  And so does Pyraxis? (Hmm. Well,  I can think of two, both distinctly lacking in credibility round here. But that might have to do ) And so does neuroman? Heck,   I very much hope so.



(*sigh* Good luck , Lazarus.  Hope I haven’t said anything I shouldn’t have said)



« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 05:07:42 PM by DrunkardsWalk »

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #252 on: August 16, 2007, 05:47:54 PM »
i just plussed you again.


i didn't read it all, but the gist seemed to be yet more excuses for a grown man.
right?
Misunderstood.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #253 on: August 16, 2007, 06:00:55 PM »
look walkie.

i have offered neuroman the olive branch of peace several times.  his response:  it is easier to walk away.

if he wants to apologise for his part now, then fine.  nobody really needs this mindfuck that you and pyraxis are holding now, in his honor.
let him be a man for once and own up to his own responsibilities in all that has happened.  as far as i am concerned, it was his weakness that caused all this trouble in the first place.  his inability to say his piece.
by you and pyraxis speaking for him now, all you are doing is enabling him.  and, imho, not doing what is right by your friend.
Misunderstood.

Offline Walkie

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Re: Scrapheap calls out Lucifer.
« Reply #254 on: August 16, 2007, 06:32:47 PM »
I think we’ll just have to agree to differ, McJ

As I see it: you’ve lost all respect for neuroman, because you now perceive him as weak, right?

I don’t see any possible constructive approach to that problem. And  I don’t consider it “weak” to suffer a breakdown.  That most often happens when people are too strong for their own good, IMO.

And I believe there’s a pretty big difference between “accepting responsibility” and taking the blame for everything

I think neuroman was right: walking away was probably the only  thing to do, sad though that is.

Btw: There’s a bit of a problem with this word filter
med-it-ate =wanked like a P.I.-starved chimp  is surely fair enough if I’m talking about meditation, as such. It would probably serve me right
But I didn’t intend to be that offensive to Lucifer, when I used the word pre-, med-it-ated  *wince *
I got a bit of a shock, when I read my post back. (trying to look at it through your eyes)

« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 06:43:16 PM by DrunkardsWalk »