Author Topic: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and  (Read 2119 times)

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TheoK

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2013, 04:27:07 PM »
Vote them out of the office is probably easier.

Nah, I say people should vote directly on legislation.  Maybe not get rid of representation altogether, but of course the voice of the people must be first and last.  Reps might behave better if they knew their job was to serve us, instead of to hold power over us.

In theory, that would be a good idea. In Real Life (TM), however, people are morons who'd be easily swayed if there were difficult and unpopular decisions to be made. People should *never* be allowed to vote on legislation directly.

It's the big problem with democracy. People are morons and the majority should not be allowed to vote on anything more complex than the grocery list, and even that can prove to be too difficult for some.

The leaders, though, are often morons too and not seldom psychopaths.

Offline Beardy McFuckface

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2013, 06:17:00 PM »
It's a tough thing to sort out when the majority, including the politicians, are stupid as fuck.

I don't think it can be done perfectly without some form of mind control.

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2013, 01:23:04 AM »
Either you accept the democratic principle or you don't.  I would like you to reexamine your evidence, however.  What exactly is it? 



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TheoK

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2013, 03:49:30 AM »
I think most people are stupid because they are brainwashed. Many of my "friends" in school were more intelligent at the age of 10 then they are as adults. Not that they ever were geniuses, though.

Offline odeon

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2013, 03:50:46 AM »
Either you accept the democratic principle or you don't.  I would like you to reexamine your evidence, however.  What exactly is it?

People voted this man into office:



I rest my case.  :M
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline conlang returns

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2013, 09:22:43 AM »
Either you accept the democratic principle or you don't.  I would like you to reexamine your evidence, however.  What exactly is it?

People voted this man into office:



I rest my case.  :M

George Bush is the perfect example.  He might have beaten a marionette like Al Gore (though thanks to the supreme court we'll never know the truth of the matter), as well as John Kerry, who was basically the Democratic Party's Mitt Romney.  The contest was over who was the lesser of two evils, a contest which is predicated upon the dominance of a pair of incredibly well-funded bureaucracies whose sole duty is to get people into office.  These financial giants can not only outspend any third party challenger, but they also work together to create rules making it nearly impossible for third parties to break in, or even to hold whatever ground they gain.  In addition, they each reserve the right to draw district maps that guarantee their incumbents a certain level of job security.  Bush is still, after five years, widely regarded as the worst president in United States history, yet his policies remain in place, held there by a man whose only campaign promise was to change them.  Do you really think that if his policies were truly subjected to a referendum, as the Democrats claimed they were, that any of them would still be law?  Seventy percent of Americans now think that the Patriot Act was a bad idea.  But it's still not going anywhere.  The near-impossibility of third parties gaining and keeping name-recognition they can bank on ensures that American representatives suffer almost no accountability. 

Make no mistake, George Bush made a handful of people very very rich, and Obama is doing the precise same thing.  If these two have made a lot of other people very very poor, it wasn't because of those people's stupidity, but for the lack of a competitive, genuine alternative.  The election rules in this country are so arcane, that for most third parties, managing to get on the ballot at all is seen as a major victory.  It eats up most of their funds, and there is nothing left over for airtime.  If representative democracy seems to have failed in America, it isn't because the democratic principle doesn't work. 



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TheoK

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2013, 09:29:18 AM »
It's not just in America. In Sweden we have 8 parties in the parliament but in principle there are two "blocks" of parties, the "red" or the "blue" that will always have the power (although the "blue" block would be considered red too in the US).

I still say that, apart from the charade with "representative" "democracy", people are still more brainwashed by society than genuinely stupid.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:31:12 AM by Lit »

Offline odeon

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2013, 02:12:26 AM »
Either you accept the democratic principle or you don't.  I would like you to reexamine your evidence, however.  What exactly is it?

People voted this man into office:



I rest my case.  :M

George Bush is the perfect example.  He might have beaten a marionette like Al Gore (though thanks to the supreme court we'll never know the truth of the matter), as well as John Kerry, who was basically the Democratic Party's Mitt Romney.  The contest was over who was the lesser of two evils, a contest which is predicated upon the dominance of a pair of incredibly well-funded bureaucracies whose sole duty is to get people into office.  These financial giants can not only outspend any third party challenger, but they also work together to create rules making it nearly impossible for third parties to break in, or even to hold whatever ground they gain.  In addition, they each reserve the right to draw district maps that guarantee their incumbents a certain level of job security.  Bush is still, after five years, widely regarded as the worst president in United States history, yet his policies remain in place, held there by a man whose only campaign promise was to change them.  Do you really think that if his policies were truly subjected to a referendum, as the Democrats claimed they were, that any of them would still be law?  Seventy percent of Americans now think that the Patriot Act was a bad idea.  But it's still not going anywhere.  The near-impossibility of third parties gaining and keeping name-recognition they can bank on ensures that American representatives suffer almost no accountability. 

Make no mistake, George Bush made a handful of people very very rich, and Obama is doing the precise same thing.  If these two have made a lot of other people very very poor, it wasn't because of those people's stupidity, but for the lack of a competitive, genuine alternative.  The election rules in this country are so arcane, that for most third parties, managing to get on the ballot at all is seen as a major victory.  It eats up most of their funds, and there is nothing left over for airtime.  If representative democracy seems to have failed in America, it isn't because the democratic principle doesn't work.

I love it how you get all defensive. :P

But I actually had a serious point to make here, which had nothing to do with your country or its indirectly elected leaders. The point is this:

People, in general, are uneducated morons lacking even the basics necessary to make educated decisions about anything. I could just as well have illustrated my earlier post with our prime minister, or just about anyone, but it's safe to say that Bush is better known. He is also a prime example of an idiot having been elected into office.

A number of years ago there was a public referendum in Sweden about whether or not to keep the nuclear power plants in the country, I think 12 at the time. It was a hugely populistic vote in just about every way, happening as a direct result of the Harrisburg incident in the US, but for some reason the powers that be carried it through every step of the way.

Lobbyists pulled the public opinion back and forth and the people were polarised into roughly two camps, not three, debating about nuclear power based on fear and fiction, but eventually the vote was carried through and the country is still recovering from it.

The notion of the people making an informed decision about a specialised technical matter is almost as bizarre as the idea of politicians making it. But this is what democracy is; people making decisions about matters that are far beyond their education or reasoning capabilities.

Or electing equally ill-informed politicians who then base their decisions not on any factual merits but on how they affect their jobs.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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TheoK

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2013, 02:54:21 AM »
That's why an anarchy with enlightened citizens is absolutely necessary!  :viking:

Offline odeon

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2013, 02:55:51 AM »
Well, anarchy fails for more reasons than just that.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Semicolon

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2013, 05:30:05 PM »
I try but I only have one vote :(

Electoral fraud! :arrr: :P

Either you accept the democratic principle or you don't.  I would like you to reexamine your evidence, however.  What exactly is it?

People voted this man into office:



I rest my case.  :M

The second time we did, when he was the incumbent. The first time, Al Gore won the popular vote. :M

It's not just in America. In Sweden we have 8 parties in the parliament but in principle there are two "blocks" of parties, the "red" or the "blue" that will always have the power (although the "blue" block would be considered red too in the US).

I still say that, apart from the charade with "representative" "democracy", people are still more brainwashed by society than genuinely stupid.

In the US, red is Republican (conservative) and blue is Democrat (liberal). Are you saying that all of your legislators are Republicans? :zombiefuck:
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TheoK

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2013, 05:33:23 PM »
Oh, no, red is socialist in Sweden. Blue is conservative/liberal.

Offline conlang returns

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2013, 06:31:38 PM »
I fail to see how it takes specialized knowledge to ask basic questions about nuclear plants like

1.  What is the fuel source, and what happens to the fuel after it has been used?
2.  How likely is it that someone at the plant will make a mistake?
3.  What are the consequences of such a mistake?

But that's just one topic.  Capitalism doesn't make it easy to build a broadly educated population, with an effective and ethical journalistic culture, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. 



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Offline odeon

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2013, 02:33:36 AM »
I fail to see how it takes specialized knowledge to ask basic questions about nuclear plants like

1.  What is the fuel source, and what happens to the fuel after it has been used?
2.  How likely is it that someone at the plant will make a mistake?
3.  What are the consequences of such a mistake?

But that's just one topic.  Capitalism doesn't make it easy to build a broadly educated population, with an effective and ethical journalistic culture, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

This already has the discussion dumbed down to a level where it is meaningless. 1 is already mostly beside the point, 2 is impossible to answer and 3 is isolated speculation.

You cannot educate everyone because the capacity for learning isn't always there. And "ethical journalistic culture" is an oxymoron in more ways than one.
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Offline Adam

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Re: I was at a meeting about the NHS tonight and
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2013, 04:31:55 AM »
Always asks me how democrats are blue and republicans are red. That's just fucking wrong!