I need feminism/the men's coalition because I am a fucking coward.

[Al Swearegen]

As a little girl i heard about Emiline Pankhurst and the Suffragettes movement. 'Wow' i thought when i heard of how they handcuffed themselves to Downing st, and how they got arrested. 

They were hero status for a time.  *the suffragettes fought for women*

and then i grew up and read the books for myself.   

I was gutted to learn that actually they were only interested in obtaining the vote for certain types of women.  That is women with status and women with money.  They were not interested in elevating women in general.  They were only interested in furthering themselves and those women who enjoyed upper class status.

They were quickly knocked off the pedestal.   It was disappointing.   

the best way to move coward is by putting one foot in from of the other and repeat.

Change always seems to happen slowly. IMHO, if they were interested in the vote for the privileged class of women then they were putting one foot in front of the other.

Here is a problem with that thinking though McJagger

Here is the set up.

Women through the ages were often left with children whilst irresponsible Fathers refused to have anything to do with the children, and started new lives financially independent of the family they left.

Feminism saw this blatant inequality and various changes were made in the law courts and in child support so that dipshit Dads would not leave their kids high and dry. They pushed and pushed for more "rights" and finances for the Mother so that the kids would be looked after.

Sounds right? Sounds fair? Read on...
Now your marriage breaks down after many years and your now ex-wife gets custody of the children. She gets to stay in the house and you have to move out, and to help support you, you get nothing. To support her she gets 25% of your pay, and a government pension and child support from government as well as access to a variety of services. Between tax, child support and the new increased costs you are struggling far worse than she.

You dutifully pay your dues though because you are a good Dad.

The divorce comes through. The house is the only real asset....apart from your super. Effectively you get about 16% of what she does.
You move to the other side of the country on a mutual decision to both relocate for better schooling. You do the right thing. You move into rental and spend the next 6 months getting a new job and trying to settle in the place. You know no-one but the kids and her....only in the first month she decides she does not want you to see the kids.

She can't do that because you are all equal...right? Wrong! Thanks to feminism and women's rights, she can.

You go to the only men's rights institution around and explain you have no money as you have only just got a job and can not afford a lawyer. They say "That must feel bad. Do you need counselling?"

"No" you say, "I need to see my kids and they need to see me. What can you do to help?" They say "nothing"
"But I have researched and there are at least a half a dozen Women's centres and support units that WILL help if I was a woman"
"Yeah...I know. Sorry...we just can't..."

So you take out loans and credit cards to pay for lawyers to fight for your rights. You have heard of other guys this has been done to, who gave up and regretted it.

Nine months of not seeing your kids, running on nervous energy and not sleeping. Not knowing anyone where you live. Heart broken. Stressed.

But court will right it all. In court there will be comeuppance. No. In court she lies in deposition. Judge treats you like an arsehole and you get fuck all access and to rub salt into wounds she insists on supervised access initially. Is her parenting judged or for question? No, because she is a woman and Mother.

You see them just before Christmas. By January you start waking at nights with chest pain. It eventually goes. Sometimes you throw up. You walk it off. Work is suffering. These incidences increase in frequency and severity.  You have no support. You eventually have a heart attack 4 months later. You are 35.

Still no support from anyone. You struggle on and do not miss one single access visit.
Your ex has bought a house and moved in with a bloke.

You are in a bad way. Less time at work means you are more than struggling to pay tax, loan repayments, child support and such.
You spend years fending off debt collectors, the child support agency and keep a home big enough to fulfill your obligations under the court orders that were slanted against you because you were male.

That is another side of what feminism will do. It IS NOT a human rights movement. It is a women's rights movement. They are concerned with women getting the most that they can and to right the inequalities against them in society. If a man gets trampled on then who gives a fuck?

So McJagger your allusions to this ideology of what helps women helps us is great, until shit hits the fan. Too simplistic is a "IF men do not embrace feminism they are cowards, they are afraid of losing privilege, they are not ...."whatever. Too simplistic by far and not well thought out.

I am despite this happy that feminism exists because I actually like women and those I love and care for I want empowered and secure and independent and equal. But I will actively laugh in the face of anyone who says feminism is for everyone and only helps.

[McGiver]

My main political issue is workers rights.

I believe the main nemeses to workers rights is the exploitation of labor by capitalism practiced to its nth degree. I see major retailers as the #1 target on my hit list.  All down the supply chain they exploit workers and demand this through their buying power and market share.

Walmart (Asda for you) is the biggest of the big.  And it is their business model that others need to consider if they wish to compete. 
Now, I'd love to see them all fall and emerge in their place the "mom and pop" store.

Even though I think that Target, Hobby Lobby, Staples, etc should all fall I concentrate my efforts on Walmart.  They, to me, are an appropriate first step.  Watch them fall and see labor rise, IMHO. 
So I snipe.  I make correlations between their customers and fat people, short-sided people and lazy, etc.  small steps.  I try to convince one person at a time, through shame or reasoned debate not to shop there.
If that first step is ever accomplished I will move on to Target for instance.

Every step I toppling the system is ok.  Therefore I support feminism because I am anti status quo.

Read mine. It's shorter.

[McGiver]

Albert, I didn't think you liked to argue from a position of emotion.

Instead of saying, "oh the system is not fair" change it instead.

The reason why there are so many support systems in place for women is because of millennia of male abuse against them.  They organized and some dedicated their lives to the equity and advancement of women.

If you think that men cannot get affordable representation, for instance, then organize with like minded men and change it.

My main argument will always be....
Stop pointing fingers at others.  If you don't like it, change it.  Division keeps us all down.

[McGiver]

Albert wrote,

Now your marriage breaks down after many years and your now ex-wife gets custody of the children. She gets to stay in the house and you have to move out, and to help support you, you get nothing. To support her she gets 25% of your pay, and a government pension and child support from government as well as access to a variety of services. Between tax, child support and the new increased costs you are struggling far worse than she.

You dutifully pay your dues though because you are a good Dad.

The divorce comes through. The house is the only real asset....apart from your super. Effectively you get about 16% of what she does.
You move to the other side of the country on a mutual decision to both relocate for better schooling. You do the right thing. You move into rental and spend the next 6 months getting a new job and trying to settle in the place. You know no-one but the kids and her....only in the first month she decides she does not want you to see the kids.

She can't do that because you are all equal...right? Wrong! Thanks to feminism and women's rights, she can.

You go to the only men's rights institution around and explain you have no money as you have only just got a job and can not afford a lawyer. They say "That must feel bad. Do you need counselling?"

"No" you say, "I need to see my kids and they need to see me. What can you do to help?" They say "nothing"
"But I have researched and there are at least a half a dozen Women's centres and support units that WILL help if I was a woman"
"Yeah...I know. Sorry...we just can't..."

So you take out loans and credit cards to pay for lawyers to fight for your rights. You have heard of other guys this has been done to, who gave up and regretted it.

Nine months of not seeing your kids, running on nervous energy and not sleeping. Not knowing anyone where you live. Heart broken. Stressed.

But court will right it all. In court there will be comeuppance. No. In court she lies in deposition. Judge treats you like an arsehole and you get fuck all access and to rub salt into wounds she insists on supervised access initially. Is her parenting judged or for question? No, because she is a woman and Mother.

You see them just before Christmas. By January you start waking at nights with chest pain. It eventually goes. Sometimes you throw up. You walk it off. Work is suffering. These incidences increase in frequency and severity.  You have no support. You eventually have a heart attack 4 months later. You are 35.

Still no support from anyone. You struggle on and do not miss one single access visit.
Your ex has bought a house and moved in with a bloke.

You are in a bad way. Less time at work means you are more than struggling to pay tax, loan repayments, child support and such.
You spend years fending off debt collectors, the child support agency and keep a home big enough to fulfill your obligations under the court orders that were slanted against you because you were male.

That is another side of what feminism will do. It IS NOT a human rights movement. It is a women's rights movement. They are concerned with women getting the most that they can and to right the inequalities against them in society. If a man gets trampled on then who gives a fuck?

I'm sorry this happened to you.  and you are right, it is not fair....to you.
I also sympathize with all the women throughout history who have lived crappy lives, struggling to support children because of irresponsible males.

[Al Swearegen]

Albert, I didn't think you liked to argue from a position of emotion.

Instead of saying, "oh the system is not fair" change it instead.

The reason why there are so many support systems in place for women is because of millennia of male abuse against them.  They organized and some dedicated their lives to the equity and advancement of women.

If you think that men cannot get affordable representation, for instance, then organize with like minded men and change it.

My main argument will always be....
Stop pointing fingers at others.  If you don't like it, change it.  Division keeps us all down.

Not a big fan of emotional arguments either. Passionate arguments, I like them. But the unfortunate thing is that i did not know how else to express it I do not like putting personal stuff out there either but did not know how else to put it out there without making it sound like i was one of these alluded to haters.

I think that the thing is, as i pointed out the reasoning is sound and the logic of the positions actually very much applaudable.
I want women to be protected. I am a man, why would I not want that. I hate men who mistreat women or deadbeat dads. No issue.
I do not want women forced to live in the streets.
The changes made were from good places. You see that and I see that.

I want my daughter and my women friends to have rights and influence and security.

I would not seek to take away rights and knock out a few pillars they have built. Maybe action against such things in court may realign things back to a reasonable place or maybe it will swing back further.

(example: Let's say that i was to fight the fight against the false rape charges and the false charges of domestic violence that sometimes are presented vindictively against a partner for more purchase and sympathy from the women and to "make the guy pay". Let's say i was to highlight specific instances where it happened and the fault with the courts and then tighten up the system to make it harder for bitch women to get away with this bullshit.
Now IF I did do this, what have I also done? I have put back 10-20 years the efforts of decent and abused women who were actually raped or hurt by partners and and arseholes to get away from allegations that are founded.)

Not that guy McJagger. It is not because i am pointing fingers or weak.

Its taken me 7 years but I have not done too fucking badly for myself and that is just working with what I have and reaping the benefits now.

[RageBeoulve]

My main political issue is workers rights.

I believe the main nemeses to workers rights is the exploitation of labor by capitalism practiced to its nth degree. I see major retailers as the #1 target on my hit list.  All down the supply chain they exploit workers and demand this through their buying power and market share.

Walmart (Asda for you) is the biggest of the big.  And it is their business model that others need to consider if they wish to compete. 
Now, I'd love to see them all fall and emerge in their place the "mom and pop" store.

Even though I think that Target, Hobby Lobby, Staples, etc should all fall I concentrate my efforts on Walmart.  They, to me, are an appropriate first step.  Watch them fall and see labor rise, IMHO. 
So I snipe.  I make correlations between their customers and fat people, short-sided people and lazy, etc.  small steps.  I try to convince one person at a time, through shame or reasoned debate not to shop there.
If that first step is ever accomplished I will move on to Target for instance.

Every step I toppling the system is ok.  Therefore I support feminism because I am anti status quo.

I don't support any isms because they always lean towards one demographic. I will never accept anyone being superior or more important than any other. EVER. No matter how dumb, ugly, smart, or good looking someone may be. No matter what strengths or weaknesses anyone has, EVERYONE is just as important as the next, and deserves the exact same respect and privilege as the person to their left and right.

I will never think any other way. I believe in PURE equality, and I always will. In my mind, if anyone challenges this, they are selfish, and a tyrant to be defeated as soon as possible.

[Calavera]

Property!

Still are in much of the world.  Not taken seriously much in the rest.

Provide an example or two to illustrate what you mean. I can't think of any disadvantage women have in today's Western world. They have the right to abort, the right not to get pregnant at all, the right to vote, the right to divorce, the right to seek protection from men, the right to file accusations against men, the right to fight in the army, the right to own property, the right to be the breadwinner, the right to be educated, the right to be entertained, the right to debate, and the right to be bigoted against men.

What the fuck do they not have a right of that feminists have to continue to make a big deal about gender inequalities?

Why don't you all worry about the women who are really deprived of their rights in most of the Third World countries instead?

[McGiver]

Men are afraid that their birthright is being taken away....and it is. 
The  are winning.

[McGiver]

Albert, I admire your fight.  Even your meager success.  It's just that the women's coalition is winning the battle.  Men are, a.) paying for the sins of their father and b.) not united.

I wish the best for women, just like you.  And I hope that I am never in the situation where I am fighting for the right to see my kid.

[Dexter Morgan]

Walmart fucking loves the women's movement, though.  It effectively doubled the workforce, making wages decrease and destroyed union influence due to the princple of supply/demand.

[McGiver]

Walmart fucking loves the women's movement, though.  It effectively doubled the workforce, making wages decrease and destroyed union influence due to the princple of supply/demand.

good point.

What precipitated the women's movement?  Lesbians?

Or irresponsible, entitled males?

[RageBeoulve]

Men are afraid that their birthright is being taken away....and it is. 
The  are winning.

Again, that football team thinking just goes way over my head. It makes steam come out of my ears.

Its like when you hear children playing and one declares, "boys vs the girls!". WTactualFUCK? What the fuck is that shit? Where does it come from? That CAN'T be an innate human trait, can it?

[McGiver]

It is interesting.  I wonder where does that mentality come from?  What made it necessary for women to unite?  Why on earth have men joined their cause?

[RageBeoulve]

I don't know. I just observe large chunks of people experiencing a slight misstep in their cushy little life, and then retaliating with a MOVEMENT that takes rights and comfort from others to the point that others are treated like dirt, while the MOVEMENT looks down their nose at them, and treates them like vile and evil subhumans.

We are ALL humans you retarded pieces of shit.

[McGiver]

I don't know. I just observe large chunks of people experiencing a slight misstep in their cushy little life, and then retaliating with a MOVEMENT that takes rights and comfort from others to the point that others are treated like dirt, while the MOVEMENT looks down their nose at them, and treates them like vile and evil subhumans.

We are ALL humans you retarded pieces of shit.

lol. 
I'll learn!