Scottish elections

[McGiver]

but i remember back in high school when sweden was an all state quarterback.  he was soo cool, all the chicks wanted him.

now he is a used car salesman, twice divorced, bald and fat.

[DirtDawg]

Are Norwegians and Swedes rivals in Europe as well as here in America ??

Swedes are for Norwegians what Yanks are for Canadians I think. We're their "bigger brothers", which they don't always like...My home province was ceded from Norway to Sweden in 1658, by the way.

Yeah, but Sweden owned Norway. We never succeeded in our attempts
to take canadia.

But you never ceded anything to any country, except some small parts of the Louisiana territory to Canada, and then Canada at the same time ceded territories to the US. You also ceded some very tiny piece of land to Mexico in 1970. Sweden had an Empire, stretching almost all the way around the Baltic, which we lost, and after taking Norway as kind of compensation for the loss of Finland, they finally got their independence without war in 1905. Sweden is so thoroughly pawned. I think that's the reason we're cowards. 

Panama Canal, Cuba, Japan, etc. We take stuff first, then give it back.

[Litigious]

Are Norwegians and Swedes rivals in Europe as well as here in America ??

Swedes are for Norwegians what Yanks are for Canadians I think. We're their "bigger brothers", which they don't always like...My home province was ceded from Norway to Sweden in 1658, by the way.

Yeah, but Sweden owned Norway. We never succeeded in our attempts
to take canadia.

But you never ceded anything to any country, except some small parts of the Louisiana territory to Canada, and then Canada at the same time ceded territories to the US. You also ceded some very tiny piece of land to Mexico in 1970. Sweden had an Empire, stretching almost all the way around the Baltic, which we lost, and after taking Norway as kind of compensation for the loss of Finland, they finally got their independence without war in 1905. Sweden is so thoroughly pawned. I think that's the reason we're cowards. 

Panama Canal, Cuba, Japan, etc. We take stuff first, then give it back.

Yes, but you gave it back, you didn't have to cede it. That's the difference.

[DirtDawg]

... and that, somehow makes us evil, though.

 

[Litigious]

... and that, somehow makes us evil, though.

 

I don't think so. But many commie scums, especially in my country would say that you are. In the leftist Swedish media, everything America does is always wrong.

[Litigious]

This is how much Sweden sucks, even as a state and military power:

The Swedish Empire in 1658. Today's Sweden is orange-red.



This was what was considered Sweden Proper; the Baltic provinces were possesions but not parts of Sweden itself.



Through the so called Great Northern War or "Greater Wrath", a 21 year(!) long war with Russia, Denmark-Norway, Poland-Sachsony and other powers, Sweden lost all it's Baltic possesions and parts of Carelia. A few small parts of northern Germany remained Swedish until 1814. In 1741, just 20 years after the Greater Wrath, Sweden started a badly planned war against Russia and lost even more of Finland to Russia in 1743; the so called Lesser Wrath. All fortresses that had been built in the meantime were ceded to Russia as a consequence of the Lesser Wrath.



Then, in 1808, the more or less insane King Gustav IV Adolf managed to get into war with Denmark-Norway, Napoleonic France and Russia at the same time!



The result: the Russo-Swedish war of 1808-09

AT THE END OF 1807 and the beginning of 1808, the Swedish government ignored all reports of the massive maneuvres at the Russian border. The Swedish ambassador in St. Petersburg sent reports home to Stockholm and expressed his concern as the Russian armies were marching up. Nothing was done on the Swedish side. Without declaring war on Sweden, Russian troops crossed the border to Finland on February 21, 1808. This sunday, the Swedish major Gustav Arnkihl, of the Nyland dragoons - who was posted at the border - signed a report to the brigade command. "...That the Russians have crossed the border at 5 o'clock today, with a considerable force... it is also reported that they have crossed at Abborfors and also that they have gone over at Korois with Cossacks and pointed their march in our direction." The future of the 700-years old union between Sweden and Finland hung in balance as the Final War had begun.

Through the Treaty of Fredrikshamn on September 17, 1809, Sweden forever lost Finland and even genuinly ethnical Swedish territories, like the Ã…land Islands. The only advantage was that the border wasn't drawn even further to the south than the Russians wanted, but it was nevertheless drawn by the wrong river (of course); the Torne River instead of the Kemi River.

As kind of compensation for the loss of Finland, Sweden got help from other powers to force Denmark to cede Norway to Sweden, the Union Sweden-Norway. This was probably Sweden's last triumph ever as a military power. But less than 100 years later, Sweden cowardly let Norway leave the Union peacefully. And of course, like the losers we were and are:

The Norwegian possessions of Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland remained with Denmark.

 

[McGiver]

... and that, somehow makes us evil, though.

 

I don't think so. But many commie scums, especially in my country would say that you are. In the leftist Swedish media, everything America does is always wrong.

every body is just jealous.
it boils down to insecurities.

[odeon]

Don't believe everything Lit says. His views are absolute when it comes to what he regards as the cowardly Swedes. There's no middle ground when he's in the rant mode.

The truth is usually more nuanced. And it certainly is, in this case, just as it is with the former Swedish empire.

[Litigious]

Aaahhh, what? Should I be wrong or partish in any way? Gangster Computer God Communist brainwash propaganda! 

[Litigious]

I do have some heroes that are Swedish, though. Like King Karl XII and General von Döbeln.

And when the Russians came through the first line, Döbeln got up on a nearby milestone and shouted to them: "Run to hell, you lousy! And receive your reward! Here I stand and shall fall! Here you see my monument!".

A man. Not a coward. That's especially the right sort of language to use against Russians.

[odeon]

Aaahhh, what? Should I be wrong or partish in any way?

In a word? Yes.

[SovaNu]

thanks for the history lesson lit... not that i agree that it was a bad thing finland got its independence.

so it was like russia pwnd finland first and then sweden? and then finland was like yo sweden, catcha later and sweden cried.

i spaced out in school muchly but i'm pretty sure that's how it went.

[Litigious]

1. The Tsar openly declared at his court in 1807 that Finland from now on was to consider part of the Russian Empire.

2. The stupid, naïve, cowardly Swedish government got constant warnings from among others their Ambassador in St. Petersburg, that there was a Russian attack coming to capture Finland.

3. The stupid, naïve, cowardly Swedish government totally ignored the reports.

4. At 5 AM, 21 February 1808, the Russian army invaded Finland.

5. The stupid government and the insane King Gustav IV Adolf did almost nothing to stop the invasion at first, and when they did, the efforts were all too small. The King even for some absurd reason denied the Brits, who were Sweden's allies, to send troops to Finland to help Sweden!

6. The Swedish-Finnish regular troops and even civilians actually fought the invasion as good as they could, but they didn't get reinforcements enough to have the slightest chance to fight the intruders. There even was a Swedish Captain Malm wo actually managed to push the Russians back over the border and invade Russian Karelia(!), but to what point when he couldn't get reinforcements to hold his positions?

7. In early 1809, most of Finland was occupied by Russia and Russian troops were invading the Swedish mainland and were even near to reach Stockholm. The high officers than finally had had enough and dethroned the King, but it was too late to win the war.

8. In August 1809, the Swedish army made some final poor attempts to fight back the Russians occupying northern Sweden, to get a better position for peace negotiations, but again, thanks to lack of reinforcement and enthusiasm, it failed.

9. At the peace negotiations the Swedes behaved cowardly (of course) and made clear to the Russians that they wanted peace at almost any price.

10. The result was the Treaty of Fredrikshamn of September 17, 1809, where all of Finland, the totally Swedish populated Ã…land Islands and parts of northern Sweden were lost forever.

I don't agree with Wikipedia that it was a beneficial treaty more than that the border wasn't drawn even more to the south than it was.



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[Scrapheap]

Lit, do you teach history or something?? You'd make a good teacher I bet.

[Litigious]

I was the best at my entire high school at history, according to my history teacher, but I haven't been a history teacher myself, though. 

Gustav IV Adolf actually thought that Napoleon literally was Antichrist and that he, Gustav Adolf, was a new Karl XII. Here's a picture of the King posing in Karl XII:s uniform for Field Marshal Toll, Count Piper and General Lagerbring. As you can see, they look a bit confused. 

A picture of the burning Moscow in 1812 as a little comfort in the misery. 

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