Politics, Mature and taboo > Political Pundits
In Interviews With 122 Rapists, Student Pursues Not-So-Simple Question: Why?
Al Swearegen:
--- Quote from: Walkie on December 18, 2017, 05:22:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: Al Swearengen on December 18, 2017, 03:21:29 PM ---Rapists - both men and women (not sure how many female rapists she interviewed and guessing it was somewhere south of "one") are amoral. You do not rape someone and think it something you would want happen to you or to your loved ones and it is not something you would do brazenly around public and there is a reason. They know it is illegal and morally wrong. They can excuse and justify it all they like but they are animals.
--- End quote ---
so you disagree with the following?
--- Quote from: El on December 18, 2017, 12:19:23 PM ---"It is better to light a candle of reform than to curse the darkness of crime."
--- End quote ---
How do you explain the fact that some cultures, apparently, breed more "animals" than do other cultures? Not interested?
By asking these men about their attitudes, the researcher was trying to answer that question , in hope of finding ways to prevent rapes in the future . Prevalent Indian attitudes to women woulld seem to a factor. That would suggest that appropriate education could have a positive effect.
--- End quote ---
Okay. "No one told me it was not a good thing to tear the heads off babies and strangle children, now that I know I have all the compassion in the world for both babies and children. It was all a misunderstanding and I have been educated now."
Sorry, just do not buy it.
Minister Of Silly Walks:
There are cultures where it is considered the responsibility of a woman to not get raped, rather than the responsibility of men to not commit rape.
There are even prominent people within our cultures who make statements that appear to support that position. Donna Karan springs to mind.
And it's not just a matter of telling people what is and isn't appropriate behaviour when it comes to gender relations. When you are dealing with entrenched cultural attitudes, trying to explain things like consent can feel like trying to teach a dog card tricks.
Walkie:
Al, consider the inhuman treatment of African slaves, in the past. Consider Nazi German's inhuman treatment of Jews, gypsies, autistic people etc. How was this possible? Because people of white European descent are monsters? No,but rather because those victims had all been portrayed as less than human by social stereotyping and/or propaganda.
In some cultures , women are pretty much the equvalent of those African slaves. They exist to do men's bidding. They are not persons so much as a man's property. That enables men to act monstrously towards them. As MoSW says, that kind of cultaral conditioning is not easily undone.
Now you're taking the attitude of "Rapists are inhuman monsters, so we needn't consider their point of view" . Umm, well okay that's clearly fair , but it's actually the exact same damned attitude all over again, isn't it? And that's not gonna help the situation. Without understanding the psychology behind it, we have no way to take effective preventative action. And more women get raped . Well , thanks a million for your help, Al [irony]
By the way, I'm ignoring the case of women raping men, because I've yet to hear of marauding gangs of women pillaging a village and forcing themselves on all the helpless men, whilst history is littered with cases of role-reversal. I think it's safe to assume that the psychological factors behind female-male rape are substantially different; so it just muddies the waters to raise it here.
Ofc , if it's all just because "Some people are inhuman monsters" then it's all the same. But nobody here is agreeing with your dismissive approach to it, are they?
Let me say again: the idea that some people are not human is part of the problem ; no way will it solve the problem.
Al Swearegen:
--- Quote from: Minister of silly walks on December 19, 2017, 04:00:15 AM ---There are cultures where it is considered the responsibility of a woman to not get raped, rather than the responsibility of men to not commit rape.
There are even prominent people within our cultures who make statements that appear to support that position. Donna Karan springs to mind.
And it's not just a matter of telling people what is and isn't appropriate behaviour when it comes to gender relations. When you are dealing with entrenched cultural attitudes, trying to explain things like consent can feel like trying to teach a dog card tricks.
--- End quote ---
Unfortunately, there are grey areas in responsibility.
Women DO have to take some responsibility for protecting themselves and not putting themselves in harm's way.
If I as a young man jumped into a car as a passenger, of a friend I KNEW was well over the limit and I TRUST he will get me home okay, I have increased my risk of potential harm. IF he kills me, HE is responsible (I was not the driver), however If he was under the limit and we were tee-boned by a drunk and I was killed I have not put myself at increased risk AND I am still not responsible.
If I wander through a bad neighbourhood by myself late at night and am beaten up I am not responsible for the beating but I have chosen to put myself at great risk of something bad happening.
The lady at the start of the article did NOT put herself at greater risk and like the example of me getting killed because a drunk teeboned the car that was being driven by a sober friend, it was NOT in any way an outcome resulting from bad choices best avoided.
There are a lot of very unhelpful and dangerous pushes in society whereby even suggesting that women have some agency and ability to mitigate risk and make good choices is seen as sexist and misogynist and I think it harmful. Say women have any responsibility for their own actions and you are an oppressive victim-blamer.
Some men and some women are simply animals and rape because they think they can get away with it and whatever they get out of it is of more value than what they do to their victims. Personally I think that all women ought to have instilled in them ways to mitigate and reduce risk of being put in very bad situations NOT to completely eliminate, but to reduce teh chance of them being attacked.
Men? They should have instilled into them the importance and dignity of using their greater size and strength to protect and defend women and children and NOT to use their greater physicality to attack women whether sexually or not. Decency and manners go a long way.
If every male had an abhorrence to physically harming women and children and every women had an aversion to choices that placed them in dangerous situations I would be a lot happier. It is not a coverall and animal men and women will continue to exist and rape others and do all kinds of terrible things but there would be a lot less of it I would think.
That may make me an out of touch dinosaur, or perhaps a misogynist or a sexist. BUT if yuo think it does, then I think you should ask me on whether drunken sex = rape, whether regretting sex =rape or whether the whole signing contracts with potential sex partners to affirm consent is viable. Because then we will really be off to the races and I would be pleased to see that kind of reaction.
Sadly, I think you may disappoint me by agreeing with much of this and being normal.
Al Swearegen:
--- Quote from: Walkie on December 19, 2017, 05:38:20 AM ---Al, consider the inhuman treatment of African slaves, in the past. Consider Nazi German's inhuman treatment of Jews, gypsies, autistic people etc. How was this possible? Because people of white European descent are monsters? No,but rather because those victims had all been portrayed as less than human by social stereotyping and/or propaganda.
In some cultures , women are pretty much the equvalent of those African slaves. They exist to do men's bidding. They are not persons so much as a man's property. That enables men to act monstrously towards them. As MoSW says, that kind of cultaral conditioning is not easily undone.
Now you're taking the attitude of "Rapists are inhuman monsters, so we needn't consider their point of view" . Umm, well okay that's clearly fair , but it's actually the exact same damned attitude all over again, isn't it? And that's not gonna help the situation. Without understanding the psychology behind it, we have no way to take effective preventative action. And more women get raped . Well , thanks a million for your help, Al [irony]
By the way, I'm ignoring the case of women raping men, because I've yet to hear of marauding gangs of women pillaging a village and forcing themselves on all the helpless men, whilst history is littered with cases of role-reversal. I think it's safe to assume that the psychological factors behind female-male rape are substantially different; so it just muddies the waters to raise it here.
Ofc , if it's all just because "Some people are inhuman monsters" then it's all the same. But nobody here is agreeing with your dismissive approach to it, are they?
Let me say again: the idea that some people are not human is part of the problem ; no way will it solve the problem.
--- End quote ---
Let me say again then:
""No one told me it was not a good thing to tear the heads off babies and strangle children, now that I know I have all the compassion in the world for both babies and children. It was all a misunderstanding and I have been educated now.""
There. You would consider that wouldn't you? You are a Psychologist trying to figure me out and I now have an audience in my solitary cell and I am willing to spill and appease your sense of me reforming and having some element of humanity. So do I pass the human test? I am not all bad? Perhaps given some more reflection I can go bad into society....maybe work in a Day Care Centre? Why not?
If you (not you, you, but anyone) look at a fellow human and on the basis of some immutable part of them, see a monster, that is an internal failing. Man's inhumanity to man is a more than a fancy phrase. If you dehumanise and mistreat and torture, a fellow human, you do not get to wipe your hands clean with a - that is how I was raised.
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