Author Topic: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.  (Read 8604 times)

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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2015, 03:41:43 AM »
I do not know a thing about the confederate flag.

I do know symbols can get different meanings over time.
The swastika now symbols something completely different from what it was a hundred years ago.

Meanings of words change over time, meanings of symbols too. And going back to original meanings often is not possible. Especially not if a lot of negative emotions come with the new meaning. The new meaning sticks to it, whether you want it or not.
When reading history, it is imperative to not take the new meaning into account though.

Is prohibiting the answer?
Maybe sometimes it is. The new meaning may get more imprinted in the symbol though. Because it now comes with the notion of being one of "the brave few", daring to use it. Giving it an extra attraction. Does work that way with the swastika, I think.

Other times changing the meaning yet again is a way better option.
Make an insult a thing of pride and stuff like that.

No matter what the history of the confederate flag. Dylan Roof now added a clear racial murder to the symbolism of it, whether you like it or not. And it has been imprinted in it now, because the images are everywhere. How to deal with that is the question. Banning? Adding new opposite meanings? Creativity may work better than force, in cases like this. But that takes lots of guts, and will probably evoke violence too.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2015, 03:50:32 AM »
I think that X associates flag with slavery/white supremacy, Y associates it with Southern States identity and Z associates it with Dukes of Hazard, then Z is not that invested but Y and X are. Who has the best claim over the Flag's identity? Who gets to impose who's values on who?
I say neither.
Let what people identify with be what they identify with, even if you personally don't.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

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Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2015, 04:03:22 AM »
I think that X associates flag with slavery/white supremacy, Y associates it with Southern States identity and Z associates it with Dukes of Hazard, then Z is not that invested but Y and X are. Who has the best claim over the Flag's identity? Who gets to impose who's values on who?
I say neither.
Let what people identify with be what they identify with, even if you personally don't.

It is more complicated than that.

X, Y and Z may be there. Now X had Dylan Roof imprinting the meaning of X on the flag with the blood of nine people. And Dylan Roof had that going global. Most newspapers and TV news showed the flag in combination with telling about this murder. The tables changed. X now got world wide credit. And it will have a massive impact. And the cognitive approach, how it does not have to mean X, but also could be Y or Z does not change that.

It's like a word with five meanings, that may even be contradicting, and only one makes it to the dictionary, and to all the school books. The other four meanings slowly evaporate from the main language, though in some dialects they may linger.

If Y and Z, and maybe M and N would find ways to confuse the meaning of X to the flag, that would be a creative approach. It will infuriate X, and will cause strife. It may be more effective than taking away the flag for all of them though.



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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2015, 04:13:40 AM »
I think that X associates flag with slavery/white supremacy, Y associates it with Southern States identity and Z associates it with Dukes of Hazard, then Z is not that invested but Y and X are. Who has the best claim over the Flag's identity? Who gets to impose who's values on who?
I say neither.
Let what people identify with be what they identify with, even if you personally don't.

It is more complicated than that.

X, Y and Z may be there. Now X had Dylan Roof imprinting the meaning of X on the flag with the blood of nine people. And Dylan Roof had that going global. Most newspapers and TV news showed the flag in combination with telling about this murder. The tables changed. X now got world wide credit. And it will have a massive impact. And the cognitive approach, how it does not have to mean X, but also could be Y or Z does not change that.

It's like a word with five meanings, that may even be contradicting, and only one makes it to the dictionary, and to all the school books. The other four meanings slowly evaporate from the main language, though in some dialects they may linger.

If Y and Z, and maybe M and N would find ways to confuse the meaning of X to the flag, that would be a creative approach. It will infuriate X, and will cause strife. It may be more effective than taking away the flag for all of them though.

Nope that is not taking it away from all of them, because X doesn't want it in the first place. You are only taking it away from Y and Z. Y is punished for nothing they did wrong and on the account of X's wishes.

We can not have whoever complains the most or whoever feels the worst getting their way, in disputes.
Its not equitable. Imagine that in courts?

Plaintiff: "I felt really bad about A"
Defendant: "But I really like A"
Judge: "Plaintiff looked the most upset over this"

I do understand what you are saying though. But I do not see one perspective/identity trump another.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2015, 04:24:24 AM »
I think that X associates flag with slavery/white supremacy, Y associates it with Southern States identity and Z associates it with Dukes of Hazard, then Z is not that invested but Y and X are. Who has the best claim over the Flag's identity? Who gets to impose who's values on who?
I say neither.
Let what people identify with be what they identify with, even if you personally don't.

It is more complicated than that.

X, Y and Z may be there. Now X had Dylan Roof imprinting the meaning of X on the flag with the blood of nine people. And Dylan Roof had that going global. Most newspapers and TV news showed the flag in combination with telling about this murder. The tables changed. X now got world wide credit. And it will have a massive impact. And the cognitive approach, how it does not have to mean X, but also could be Y or Z does not change that.

It's like a word with five meanings, that may even be contradicting, and only one makes it to the dictionary, and to all the school books. The other four meanings slowly evaporate from the main language, though in some dialects they may linger.

If Y and Z, and maybe M and N would find ways to confuse the meaning of X to the flag, that would be a creative approach. It will infuriate X, and will cause strife. It may be more effective than taking away the flag for all of them though.

Nope that is not taking it away from all of them, because X doesn't want it in the first place. You are only taking it away from Y and Z. Y is punished for nothing they did wrong and on the account of X's wishes.

We can not have whoever complains the most or whoever feels the worst getting their way, in disputes.
Its not equitable. Imagine that in courts?

Plaintiff: "I felt really bad about A"
Defendant: "But I really like A"
Judge: "Plaintiff looked the most upset over this"

I do understand what you are saying though. But I do not see one perspective/identity trump another.

Make it about the swastika. X being promoted by Hitler. Y and Z and others being old folk symbols of the sun.
X got his way. When people see a swastika, they see Hitler. Historically speaking, Y, Z and others are more in the right about the meaning of the symbol, but it is not how the symbol works now.



Dylan Roof is no Hitler. But, he has publicity on his side, like Hitler had.

Not saying X has now won by default. But it takes creativity to deflate what Dylan Roof achieved.

A big factory in cookies, making confederate flag cookies and giving most of the profit to the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church or something like that, and stating that in big letters on the package, advertising on TV etc. may be effective in deflating the meaning of X.
Imagine people thinking X wanting those cookies, but the cookies are anti-X.

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2015, 04:52:32 AM »
I think that X associates flag with slavery/white supremacy, Y associates it with Southern States identity and Z associates it with Dukes of Hazard, then Z is not that invested but Y and X are. Who has the best claim over the Flag's identity? Who gets to impose who's values on who?
I say neither.
Let what people identify with be what they identify with, even if you personally don't.

It is more complicated than that.

X, Y and Z may be there. Now X had Dylan Roof imprinting the meaning of X on the flag with the blood of nine people. And Dylan Roof had that going global. Most newspapers and TV news showed the flag in combination with telling about this murder. The tables changed. X now got world wide credit. And it will have a massive impact. And the cognitive approach, how it does not have to mean X, but also could be Y or Z does not change that.

It's like a word with five meanings, that may even be contradicting, and only one makes it to the dictionary, and to all the school books. The other four meanings slowly evaporate from the main language, though in some dialects they may linger.

If Y and Z, and maybe M and N would find ways to confuse the meaning of X to the flag, that would be a creative approach. It will infuriate X, and will cause strife. It may be more effective than taking away the flag for all of them though.

Nope that is not taking it away from all of them, because X doesn't want it in the first place. You are only taking it away from Y and Z. Y is punished for nothing they did wrong and on the account of X's wishes.

We can not have whoever complains the most or whoever feels the worst getting their way, in disputes.
Its not equitable. Imagine that in courts?

Plaintiff: "I felt really bad about A"
Defendant: "But I really like A"
Judge: "Plaintiff looked the most upset over this"

I do understand what you are saying though. But I do not see one perspective/identity trump another.

Make it about the swastika. X being promoted by Hitler. Y and Z and others being old folk symbols of the sun.
X got his way. When people see a swastika, they see Hitler. Historically speaking, Y, Z and others are more in the right about the meaning of the symbol, but it is not how the symbol works now.



Dylan Roof is no Hitler. But, he has publicity on his side, like Hitler had.

Not saying X has now won by default. But it takes creativity to deflate what Dylan Roof achieved.

A big factory in cookies, making confederate flag cookies and giving most of the profit to the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church or something like that, and stating that in big letters on the package, advertising on TV etc. may be effective in deflating the meaning of X.
Imagine people thinking X wanting those cookies, but the cookies are anti-X.

I do not see Hitler's popularity as that of Hitler.
I do not see Dylan as a leader.
I do not see all people rallying behind the Confederate Flag to do bad things as the Nazis were doing with the Swastika
I see no reason for the Southerners who find pride and identity behind the flag to have that stripped because of what some mentally unstable kid did. Regardless of media.

Let's say that a guy holding a crucifix in one hand and an uzi in the other killed a lot of people whilst invoking God, I would not say that the crucifix needed banning. Nor that the belief in God was a bad thing for it. EVEN IF the media played it to be that way. Even IF my fellow Atheists for the most part threw a shit fit calling for its removal. The guy doing that I would consider nuts. That is where it would start and stop for me.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2015, 05:51:57 AM »
I see no reason for the Southerners who find pride and identity behind the flag to have that stripped because of what some mentally unstable kid did. Regardless of media.

Let's say that a guy holding a crucifix in one hand and an uzi in the other killed a lot of people whilst invoking God, I would not say that the crucifix needed banning. Nor that the belief in God was a bad thing for it. EVEN IF the media played it to be that way. Even IF my fellow Atheists for the most part threw a shit fit calling for its removal. The guy doing that I would consider nuts. That is where it would start and stop for me.

Lots of people think sexual child abuse, when they see a man with a crucifix and a robe. Most priests did/do not molest children.

I'm not saying the swastika is a bad thing in it self. I am not saying the confederate flag is a bad thing in it self (I do know nothing about it's history) but the meaning of both got tainted.
Banning the confederate flag as a result will probably work counter-productive. But if people want it to be a positive thing for them, and have it recognised as such, they will have to work on it. Because it has been tainted, and people will look at it that way. If the symbol is positive for them, than somebody tainted what they stand for and take pride in. And did a thorough job at that. Whether they want it or not, if they want to keep their symbol, they will have to reclaim it. Like a house owner will have to restore the house after a burglary has taken place. And it will never be totally the same.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2015, 05:56:19 AM »
I see no reason for the Southerners who find pride and identity behind the flag to have that stripped because of what some mentally unstable kid did. Regardless of media.

Let's say that a guy holding a crucifix in one hand and an uzi in the other killed a lot of people whilst invoking God, I would not say that the crucifix needed banning. Nor that the belief in God was a bad thing for it. EVEN IF the media played it to be that way. Even IF my fellow Atheists for the most part threw a shit fit calling for its removal. The guy doing that I would consider nuts. That is where it would start and stop for me.

Lots of people think sexual child abuse, when they see a man with a crucifix and a robe. Most priests did/do not molest children.

I'm not saying the swastika is a bad thing in it self. I am not saying the confederate flag is a bad thing in it self (I do know nothing about it's history) but the meaning of both got tainted.
Banning the confederate flag as a result will probably work counter-productive. But if people want it to be a positive thing for them, and have it recognised as such, they will have to work on it. Because it has been tainted, and people will look at it that way. If the symbol is positive for them, than somebody tainted what they stand for and take pride in. And did a thorough job at that. Whether they want it or not, if they want to keep their symbol, they will have to reclaim it. Like a house owner will have to restore the house after a burglary has taken place. And it will never be totally the same.

I do not see that Dylan taints a flag. Dylan does not represent the flag and I think if people think he does, that it stupid. Dylan was responsible for Dylan.
That is my opinion
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline MLA

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2015, 09:25:02 AM »
Scrap-Happy must be so pleased with himself right now  :autism:

Offline Bastet

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2015, 09:32:54 AM »
:kitten: OBSESSIVE AILUROPHILE :kitten:


It is far better for people to hate you for doing the right thing than for people to love you for doing the wrong thing. Never ever forget that.

Offline 'Butterflies'

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2015, 09:39:43 AM »
Scrap-Happy must be so pleased with himself right now  :autism:

It has provoked debate, so it's done its job :2thumbsup:

Offline 'Butterflies'

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2015, 09:41:45 AM »

Oh, and I'm Norwegian. We enslaved the Irish. 1000 years ago, at a time when whites enslaved whites the whole time.


You white, privileged, Irish-hating, slave owning bastard :thumbdn:

Offline Bastet

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2015, 09:54:35 AM »
Zegh you don't have to keep mentioning me. I know I have taken up a bit of real estate in your psyche, but work through it.

So, the flag is racist because some people identify it with white supremacists and slavery? They get upset and offended, so they must be protected from the offence. Well, I am offended that they are offended. Now what?

I will try to bring an analogy closer to home. Football violence in Europe. IF your favourite football team has a particular flag or team colours and your team's supporter's were involved in a a huge bloody and deadly soccer riot, MAYBE some people MAY associate that team's colours or flag with really nasty and violent behaviour. It may trigger shit out of someone who was beaten shit out of, to see that flag or those team colours. People may avoid even small groups wearing their vest going off to a game.

Now, do you think it would be fair to ban the team colours or team flag or call every supporter of the team a thug? It is exactly what you are doing in the Confederate flag example.

The funny thing is, you are coming from a supposed position of tolerance. "We can't offend the people who don't like the flag. The flag upsets them. We can not hurt their feelings so we must be more tolerant. Best way to show tolerance is to equate anyone as wanting to identify with the flag as racists or stupid or intolerant"

My fucking irony meter just broke.

You are anti-intellectual and intolerant. What you lose in intellect you make up for in condescension.

Zegh is a bigot.
:kitten: OBSESSIVE AILUROPHILE :kitten:


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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2015, 11:48:05 AM »
Just how is it a symbol of oppression??   :dunno:

I dunno... maybe the fact that it was flown by the fucking Confederates?

No, it was flown by the Army of Northern Virginia. An entirely different flag flew over the capital in Richmond Virginia and all other official Confederate buildings.

Jesus fuck, take a history lesson, will you??

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Re: Confederate Flag appreciation thread.
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2015, 01:53:16 PM »
:rebel: :rebel: :rebel:   :zoinks:

"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

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