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Author Topic: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?  (Read 4138 times)

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Offline Graelwyn

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What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« on: February 11, 2015, 02:30:06 PM »
Since I am currently very interested, even obsessed, with criminal profiling, serial killers, forensics and the like, and have watched quite a few documentaries about Death Row, I am curious as to views on the Death Penalty. We do not have it here in the Uk, and obviously, not all US states have it either and it is quite a controversial topic.

I, personally, do not really agree with it, mostly on the basis that men on Death Row, have been later found to have been innocent, not to mention many not on Death Row, but with life terms, having been found innocent. I tend to believe that life, without parole, is an adequate punishment for those guilty of heinous crimes, but I am sure there are many who are aggressively pro death penalty. This is a first for me, as I generally keep my thoughts to myself as I loathe debating. I just have my view, and am interested in the views of others as well.

So, what do you think ?

Offline El

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 05:55:25 PM »
Did you follow serial?
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Jack

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 06:02:36 PM »
Absolutely believe some people deserve to die, but don't believe it should be anyone's right to make the decision to end another's life. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder.

Offline Graelwyn

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 06:28:51 PM »
Did you follow serial?

I had not heard of that until now. I just looked it up... never listened to a podcast, but shall now have to make my first venture into doing so. It seems to have gone down well with the Hollywood crowd, judging from an article that came up in Vanity Fair.

I have recently been following a real life case that has been highly public, right down to the trial. The crime occurred in 2008, yet it is still ongoing as there were errors in proceedings and they cannot decide whether to give her the death sentence due to her mental health.
Her name is Jodi Arias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Travis_Alexander

Do a search on her name and links from less than a day ago come up regarding the trial.

Offline Graelwyn

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 06:32:23 PM »
Absolutely believe some people deserve to die, but don't believe it should be anyone's right to make the decision to end another's life. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder.

Yes, I would agree with this. Also, many are kept on Death Row for 20-30 years before they are even executed, appeal after appeal and all the procedures involved. I just finished reading a diary on my kindle. It was written by a guy on Death Watch, the last 35 days of his life before execution.

Offline Walkie

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 06:44:07 PM »
Hmm, i'm basically against the death penalty for all the very good reasons given.

However I don't think this issue has, or should have,  anything to do with punishment . If somebody is believed to be a serious menace to others,  then they need to be stopped somehow. Death and imprisonment are two very effective ways of doing this.

If all we really intend is to punish them, I'm sure we can all be a lot more inventive than that, and also a whole  lot more rational in our use of resources

Life imprisonment is generally the worst of the two, so far as punishment goes, I think. But that depends on too many variables: conditions in the prison; individual character; chances of release.  So I think there's an argument there for giving the prisoner himself some choice in the matter, if we want to be humane.

I don't think that any human being or any group of human beings is really equipped to judge some other human being. But , yeah, sometimes you just have to make an educated guess and hope to god you're not too far wrong. In which case, imprisonment  gives us a chance to change our minds. That's a very big plus in favour of imprisonment.

It's worth remembering Derek Bentley in this conext.

"You can pardon Derek Bentley, who never took a life
But Derek Bentley cannot pardon you"
-Ralph McTell

« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:46:01 PM by DrunkardsWalk »

Offline Jack

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 06:45:28 PM »
Absolutely believe some people deserve to die, but don't believe it should be anyone's right to make the decision to end another's life. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder.

Yes, I would agree with this. Also, many are kept on Death Row for 20-30 years before they are even executed, appeal after appeal and all the procedures involved. I just finished reading a diary on my kindle. It was written by a guy on Death Watch, the last 35 days of his life before execution.
Really don't think it matters how long they wait, and don't think the possible margin of error is a good excuse not to kill people, or when people use the rationality of how much more expensive death penalty trials are. Though in re-reading my statement, am finding myself to be disagreeing with myself. As a stand alone statement, it's too broadly declarative. Should have included the word punishment; don't believe anyone should have the legal right to make decisions to end another's life as a form of punishment. People defending their own life should absolutely have the legal right to make that decision, and personally have the legal right to end the life of loved ones in certain medical situations.

Offline Jack

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 07:16:02 PM »
and personally have the legal right to end the life of loved ones in certain medical situations.
Now thinking the right to die doesn't actually factor into my statement, as it's not a situation of my legal right to make that decision; they made that decision for themselves.

Offline Graelwyn

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 07:28:46 PM »
Absolutely believe some people deserve to die, but don't believe it should be anyone's right to make the decision to end another's life. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder.

Yes, I would agree with this. Also, many are kept on Death Row for 20-30 years before they are even executed, appeal after appeal and all the procedures involved. I just finished reading a diary on my kindle. It was written by a guy on Death Watch, the last 35 days of his life before execution.
Really don't think it matters how long they wait, and don't think the possible margin of error is a good excuse not to kill people, or when people use the rationality of how much more expensive death penalty trials are. Though in re-reading my statement, am finding myself to be disagreeing with myself. As a stand alone statement, it's too broadly declarative. Should have included the word punishment; don't believe anyone should have the legal right to make decisions to end another's life as a form of punishment. People defending their own life should absolutely have the legal right to make that decision, and personally have the legal right to end the life of loved ones in certain medical situations.

You don't think the possibility, a very real possibility, of innocent people being put to death, justifies not killing people?
I definitely have to differ on that one.


Offline Graelwyn

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Offline Jack

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 07:45:58 PM »
Absolutely believe some people deserve to die, but don't believe it should be anyone's right to make the decision to end another's life. The death penalty is state sanctioned murder.

Yes, I would agree with this. Also, many are kept on Death Row for 20-30 years before they are even executed, appeal after appeal and all the procedures involved. I just finished reading a diary on my kindle. It was written by a guy on Death Watch, the last 35 days of his life before execution.
Really don't think it matters how long they wait, and don't think the possible margin of error is a good excuse not to kill people, or when people use the rationality of how much more expensive death penalty trials are. Though in re-reading my statement, am finding myself to be disagreeing with myself. As a stand alone statement, it's too broadly declarative. Should have included the word punishment; don't believe anyone should have the legal right to make decisions to end another's life as a form of punishment. People defending their own life should absolutely have the legal right to make that decision, and personally have the legal right to end the life of loved ones in certain medical situations.

You don't think the possibility, a very real possibility, of innocent people being put to death, justifies not killing people?
I definitely have to differ on that one.
It's not a justification, it's a rationality. Rationalizing reasons why the state shouldn't kill people is the same as rationalizing all the reasons why they should. The state shouldn't kill people for punishment because they might be wrong. Wrong about what? Killing people? This topic is about government killing citizens to punish them, and citizens granting them the right to do that. The state simply should not have the right to punish its citizenship with death. This is my view on the death penalty.

Offline Graelwyn

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 08:40:05 PM »
Okay, then to take this a little further, what are your reasons for believing that the state should not have the right to punish its Citizenship with death? I am not sure if you live in the states, or in a state that does have the death penalty...

Offline Jack

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 08:48:08 PM »
That's just asking me to rationalize my point of view. Don't really think a reason is needed. Already stated, do in fact believe some people deserve to be killed, and could definitely come up with more reasons why they should be killed than not.

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 09:25:59 PM »
That's just asking me to rationalize my point of view. Don't really think a reason is needed. Already stated, do in fact believe some people deserve to be killed, and could definitely come up with more reasons why they should be killed than not.
Maybe it has something to do with Nietzsche. :laugh:

Offline Walkie

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Re: What's Your View On The Death Penalty?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 09:27:37 PM »
. The state shouldn't kill people for punishment because they might be wrong. Wrong about what? Killing people?
I think most of us have in mind that they might be wrong about the person's guilt. But yeah, sometimes a State does completely change it's view about whether it's right to kill unarmed criminals in custody (I'm picking nits here, you notice?) which would imply that it's previous stance is now considered "wrong".

I very much  doubt that moral absolutism has any serious place in this argument, though.  I notice that absolutists can too easily take  completely opposite stances, depending on their personal socio-political background, personal experience of life, etc., none of which really matter a damn to guy facing death, the guy who's been wronged, the guy who's supposed to pass judgement, and the guy who's supposed to push the button. All these people deserve to be adressed as real human beings facing  a very real , very individual, very grave situation, IMO. You can't resolve it all with a wave of god's hand, so to speak. Whatever our opinion is,  that's just too dismissive.

I don't think it's possible to make a blanket statement that would prove "right" in every instance, even if we all took the exact same ethical stance. There's always a lot we don't know. And if you pose a question like this generically, then that's to say: we know bugger all about the individuals concerned. Nada . Squat. And neither do we care. It's all the same if it's Jack the Ripper, or my grandma, and never mind why they did what they did, etc. 

This topic is about government killing citizens to punish them, and citizens granting them the right to do that.
I'm gona pick nits again. It isn't. It asks:  "What's Your View On The Death Penalty? " I don't see the word "punish" in there at all. As I said before, imprisonment/execution are practicalties  that really shouldn't get mixed up with "punishment", iMO, not if you'd rather arrive at a rational solution to all the issues involved.

The state simply should not have the right to punish its citizenship with death. This is my view on the death penalty.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but that's too absolutist a stance, IMO.    The state does assume the right to keep Law and order. It's not in any position to just say: OK I won't do that. It has to consider alternatives for achieving the same objective- whatever that objective is.   There are people whom  nobody wants to be running round loose. That's the main issue, seems to me. The only other realistic alternative to death in such cases appears to be imprisonment.

Now , depending on the State in question and other variables, imprisonment might mean being thrown into a filthy hell-hole where you're regularly gang-raped, beaten, and starved. So I wouldn't be too fast to assume that's the kinder alternative. Supposing that matters.

OK, nobody has the right to do that, either. But it happens. How much effort is Society in general willing to put into ensuring that it doesn't? never enough, most likely. Because  then you start running into thorny moral issues like " Should prisoners' rights be more important  than the right of poor people to have food  eat?" and then you've got another bunch of emotive and absolutist  arguments coming at you, and you wind up with no clear right or wrong overall, unless you take the world apart and rebuild it from scratch.

So, I think sometimes the death penalty might be better, once you've weighed everything up. Though whether it's wise to enshrine that option in Law is another question altogether. I'd have to think about that long and carefully, if it were my job to think about it. Thankfully, it isn't.

 No-one has the right to weigh all those things up, but sometimes people have to anyway.


Oops. *sheepishly grins as she clambers off the podium*