Author Topic: They were almost raped, guys.  (Read 3922 times)

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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2013, 08:12:26 PM »
Equality for the sexes is happening fast, in the homeless sector. Families with young kids are making it hard for the salvos to find night care for the homeless. They don't want them to bunk with die hard addicts.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2013, 09:48:52 PM »
Is it? Here there are plenty of battered women's shelters, but I've never seen a battered men's shelter. Near as I can tell, it's true that homeless men get a lot less services and support than women or children.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2013, 10:01:27 PM »
Then comes the higher level management. It is no small wonder that most of the people there are men. It is not to do with bias nor preference. It is simply that many women do not seek these positions in comparison to men OR once they are in these positions, drop out.

Women do chose to stay at home with family and the like. Men often see themselves as not having that choice. If their own partner has a lower paying or part-time job or is staying at home, they do not see themselves as having the option to staying at home or taking on a less demanding/lower paid job.

So why are there so few single moms in upper management? They have just as much need to bring in an income to support their families as fathers do. And a single parent of either gender has more expenses, because they need to arrange for childcare. Are you going to tell me it's solely because single moms don't apply?

Or that they're not cutthroat enough?

The truth is in upper management there are certain things that one needs to do in order to present the right image, and it's not about who needs the money the most. It's about what your golf game is like (seriously! this matters!) and how you dress and whether your lifestyle fits in with the people who are already there.

Yeah it's a sausagefest.

The men at this level too, are likely to be the most determined, cut-throat bastards in society and have managed to knife their way to the top. Are they going to be nice guys given to not getting everything their own way and ignoring anything they did not agree with if it was possible?

Which is pretty much the point. Just applying isn't enough.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2013, 05:18:18 AM »
No I think that it is the other way around.

Here is what I mean. The last 10 positions, 20 applicants each time. 3 women 17 guys each time. Shortlisted 1 woman 6 guys. A guy got the job in 9 out of 10 instances. With these kind of odds a pretty compelling case can be made that the "best" person was chosen and the field was competitive and mostly populated by capable men with not many women to choose from.

Now if the applications were more like this, The last 10 positions, 20 applicants each time. 9 women 11 guys each time. Shortlisted 1 woman 6 guys. A guy got the job in 9 out of 10 instances. THAT is a very hard this to "sell" to anyone looking at whether they are not favouring the male gender.

I do not think, at the same time that women ought to be given jobs to assist quotas or statistics. If the women in the field are objectively not up to scratch, then they ought not be given the job. I do think though that at this level, the applicants are likely to be fairly close and the difference between the shortlisted man and the shortlisted woman comes down to the subjective "who do we want to work here and fits best with us".

I do not think much of the people in the Upper Echelons of management. By and large, male or female, I dislike most of them for the same reasons I dislike politicians.

Do I think a single Mum is likely to seriously consider upper management roles? Depends on the lady themselves. Most men don't and most women won't but I do see a lot of single mums choose to stay at home or to do part time work or consulting or the like. They make these choices and I can not discount their choices as without merit.

I can tell you that in my area of sales. There is two females that like doing overtime. There is one of them in the top maybe 10 best salespeople. It has always been this way. Why? I don't know BUT if we were to assess in my department, who made the most money, men or women, what do you think the figures would tell you and what would the figures inform if present without this context to back it? Now I could have someone point to the figures and I would say the reasons, and they could ask a couple of questions.
"Do you think that the ladies are not as good salespeople as the men?"
"Do you think they are not as dedicated at earning money as the guys?"

What could I say? I feel your questions to me are similarly loaded and you are looking to me to provide answers that would have me look sexist or to support an ideology of suppression. I do not feel that either is fair or true.
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Offline Calavera

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
If they were hand written, I could tell if they're lying. Every lie contains some truth. A woman once showed me how to see it in handwriting. It's very interesting.

Sorry, Jack, but I call bullsh*t on that. Graphology is pseudoscience.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2013, 12:07:41 PM »
This shit is hateful, man. You can't tell me that even half of these stories are true, because that would mean that men in general actually are evil and dangerous savages, and that we really should be all locked up in cages and fed crackers and pieces of meat every now and then and just go OOOHH OHHH AAAHH AHHH *scratches ass*. And the very idea of that is ridiculous.

What if a third of them is true? A fourth? A fifth?

I don't doubt that there are both kinds, but I sincerely doubt you can tell the difference in each and every case.

Yes, even a fifth of the countless stories. If even a fifth of those are true, that means that all males should be purged or put in cages for the safety of superior women, Odeon.

 :LOL:
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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2013, 12:10:09 PM »
I don't know for certain about the salary difference. I know the statistics show that it's likely, but I don't know a socially acceptable way to find out the salary of everyone at the company with the same job title. I'm outside the rumor circles because I barely socialize.

I do know that about 95% of the executives are male.

A couple years ago when we were implementing a feature for players to put their own faces on their custom characters in the game we were making, I brought up the question of what female players would do. (The characters in that game were traditionally male.) It was quickly decided that resources couldn't be spared to implement a female option. Last year the question came up of rebuilding the randomizer that populates the crowds. Again, though every character was being remodeled, it was decided that it was too much effort to make some of them female.

It's decisions like that which lead me to suspect that equalizing glass-ceiling type issues just isn't on the agenda. If there were hard proof, of course there could be lawsuits and stuff, but what makes it insidious is that there isn't any hard proof, it's a long series of small inconsequential decisions.

Stay outside the rumor circles, friend. Rumors are bullshit.
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I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2013, 05:34:32 PM »
Yes, even a fifth of the countless stories. If even a fifth of those are true, that means that all males should be purged or put in cages for the safety of superior women, Odeon.

 :LOL:

C'mon, can't you see DFGL being behind some of those stories? That's the sort of behavior that causes problems. Not everyday guys going about their lives and flirting with girls. Nobody here's trying to lynch the whole gender.
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Offline Jack

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2013, 06:03:44 PM »
If they were hand written, I could tell if they're lying. Every lie contains some truth. A woman once showed me how to see it in handwriting. It's very interesting.

Sorry, Jack, but I call bullsh*t on that. Graphology is pseudoscience.
She was a human lie detector, working for the feds for over a decade. She just sat in the room while people were interviewed. the handwriting bit was only a small part of her seminar. I assume she had her job for a reason. Her presentation was very interesting, and I envied her for her powers.

Offline Pyraxis

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2013, 06:08:32 PM »
Interesting... what other techniques did she talk about in her seminar?
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Offline Jack

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2013, 06:12:25 PM »
The usual stuff people associate with lies, facial expression, body language, voice inflections. The handwriting was the only thing I've never seen in books on the subject. Am terrible at spotting lies. Knowing the cues in theory is one thing, but impossible for me to put into practice.

Offline Jack

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2013, 06:21:07 PM »
If they were hand written, I could tell if they're lying. Every lie contains some truth. A woman once showed me how to see it in handwriting. It's very interesting.

Sorry, Jack, but I call bullsh*t on that. Graphology is pseudoscience.
She was a human lie detector, working for the feds for over a decade. She just sat in the room while people were interviewed. the handwriting bit was only a small part of her seminar. I assume she had her job for a reason. Her presentation was very interesting, and I envied her for her powers.
Guess I should also point out, she wasn't presenting anything to do with handwriting analysis. It was just a simple matter of turning the page upside down. A written statement held before the group, then turned over. Everyone in the room could spot the lies, even though unable to actually read it. People's handwringing changes when they lie. It's just not noticeable until the page is flipped. Like I said, interesting.

Offline Calavera

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2013, 06:35:37 PM »
Being a human lie detector is different from being able to detect lies in handwriting. Body language is a much better way of assessing if someone is being shifty and such.

Also, just because she worked for the feds doesn't mean it's true that she has psychic powers.

Offline Calavera

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2013, 06:45:18 PM »
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2447/is-handwriting-analysis-legit-science

Is handwriting analysis legit science?
April 18, 2003

Dear Cecil:

What's the Straight Dope on handwriting analysis? I know that handwriting experts' testimony can be accepted in court, so there must be something to it. But I have a hard time believing that a smart criminal wouldn't be able to change his writing to avoid detection. On a related issue, can an "expert" really tell something about your personality from your handwriting (e.g., that loops in your g's and y's indicate a high sex drive)? If that were true, it would seem that one's handwriting would change from day to day, which it doesn't.

— Kristin in Sausalito, California


At first this question might seem like a great opportunity to lay out the difference between science and pseudoscience. On the one hand we have forensic handwriting analysis, in which an expert decides whether two or more samples were written by the same person, e.g., whether a signature was forged. On the other we have graphology, in which some sage tries to divine a subject's personality traits from his or her handwriting. While graphology enjoys about the same prestige as palm reading, forensic handwriting analysis has helped send people to jail since the days of the Lindbergh kidnapping. But in the eyes of the law, the credibility of such analysis is on the wane. Thanks to a landmark Supreme Court ruling in the early 90s, more and more federal judges are deciding that while forensic handwriting analysis may not be quackery, it's not exactly science either.

A meta-analysis of 200 scientific studies of graphology by Geoffery A. Dean (published in The Write Stuff: Evaluations of Graphology--The Study of Handwriting Analysis, edited by Barry L. Beyerstein and Dale F. Beyerstein, Prometheus Books, 1992) found that it was worthless as a predictor of personality. That hasn't prevented people who ought to know better from relying on it. In France, an estimated 70 percent of companies use graphology when making hiring decisions. (Between 5 and 10 percent of U.S. and UK companies do so.) Law enforcement authorities sometimes turn to graphology and kindred techniques when profiling criminals, as in the case of the D.C. sniper last fall. But such methods are often the last resort of police desperate to appear to be doing something. There's only one well-documented case of a bad guy actually being caught by a profile--George Metesky, the "Mad Bomber" of New York City in the 1940s and '50s--and he was nabbed less because of his handwriting than because he'd revealed too many clues about his past in a letter to a newspaper.

For a long time forensic handwriting analysis seemed more respectable, but its status has been shaky since 1993, when the Supreme Court handed down its ruling in Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals. Previously the chief criterion for the admissibility of expert testimony had been whether it was based on techniques "generally accepted" by scientists. Daubert gave federal judges much greater discretion in deciding admissibility. It suggested they consider (1) whether a theory or technique can be tested, (2) whether it's been subject to peer review, (3) whether standards exist for applying the technique, and (4) the technique's error rate.

Sounds reasonable, eh? But Daubert created an uproar, because the dirty little secret of much so-called expert testimony was this: though it was possible in principle to test and validate most forensic techniques, in many cases no one had ever done so. In 2002 one judge even restricted testimony based on fingerprint analysis, saying he was unconvinced the technique was a science rather than a mix of craft and guesswork.

No forensic technique has taken more hits than handwriting analysis. In one particularly devastating federal ruling, United States v. Saelee (2001), the court noted that forensic handwriting analysis techniques had seldom been tested, and that what testing had been done "raises serious questions about the reliability of methods currently in use." The experts were frequently wrong--in one test "the true positive accuracy rate of laypersons was the same as that of handwriting examiners; both groups were correct 52 percent of the time." The most basic principles of handwriting analysis--for example, that everyone's handwriting is unique--had never been demonstrated. "The technique of comparing known writings with questioned documents appears to be entirely subjective and entirely lacking in controlling standards," the court wrote. Testimony by the government's handwriting expert was ruled inadmissible.

Prosecutors scrambling to find scientific validation for handwriting analysis last year touted a study by Sargur Srihari, a professor of computer science at the State University of New York at Buffalo. Srihari subjected 1,500 writing samples to computer analysis. Conclusion: In 96 percent of cases, the writer of a sample could be positively identified based on quantitative features of his handwriting such as letter dimensions and pen pressure. Skeptics objected that lab results using a computer prove nothing about what a human can do in the real world, and who can argue? If expert testimony is going to send people up the river, it better be more than some mope's prejudices dressed up as science.

— Cecil Adams

Offline Jack

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2013, 06:51:29 PM »
Maybe I'm being misunderstood. She wasn't discussing handwriting analysis in the sense you're discussing. Also didn't say she was psychic. She was a trained psychologist and an expert in her field. I viewed her skillset as 'powers' because that type of thing is beyond my ability. She was awesome.