Iowa FTW

[RageBeoulve]

[Adam]

There shouldn't be gun laws at all. I have explained this.

You have explained it, yes. "It" being YOUR view on things.

Just because you explain YOUR opinion doesn't mean anyone who doesn't agree just doesn't "get it"

You can explain it all you like. If I still think it's wrong, I think it's wrong.

There should preferrably be no laws at all,

Again, preferable in YOUR OPINION. Many disagree.

[Adam]

I could kill you with a pencil. Just sayin.

Yep. But a pencil is not designed as a weapon. And of all its uses, killing is not really up there near the top.

We'v been over this before.

[Adam]

"Law" and "right" are two different concepts. People have certain rights no matter what the law says.

Everyone has the "right" to defend themselves

Not everyone is legally able to do everything that everyone else is able to though. And for sensible reasons.

A convicted sociopath shouldn't be allowed a gun. Most people would agree with that. That's just sensible. Of course he is still a human being who has the right to defend himself, but the law is there to protect everyone else as well as him.

That's what Im saying.

[Adam]

They should be allowed to drive public transports, too.

^ This.

[Adam]

Everything is right that doesn't in itself hurt others. It's a very simple concept. A five year old can grasp it.

The way you constantly say things like this makes me wonder if it's actually just your Aspergers that's coming through in your inability to grasp that other people here doesn't see the world like you do.

Which is understandable, but then... surely you can LOGICALLY realise this, even if it doesn't come naturally to you?

I would have at least thoguht you'd be capable of that, given the wealth of experience you supposedly have.

[TheoK]

"Law" and "right" are two different concepts. People have certain rights no matter what the law says.

Everyone has the "right" to defend themselves

Not everyone is legally able to do everything that everyone else is able to though. And for sensible reasons.

A convicted sociopath shouldn't be allowed a gun. Most people would agree with that. That's just sensible. Of course he is still a human being who has the right to defend himself, but the law is there to protect everyone else as well as him.

That's what Im saying.

Like Spooner says: you shouldn't give him a weapon. But Spooner would also say that it's a crime to deny him a weapon through legislation.

What you don't understand is that the biggest "sociopaths" are not convicted at all. They are running your country, my country, the EU etc and have all the weapons they could ever wish for.

[TheoK]

Everything is right that doesn't in itself hurt others. It's a very simple concept. A five year old can grasp it.

The way you constantly say things like this makes me wonder if it's actually just your Aspergers that's coming through in your inability to grasp that other people here doesn't see the world like you do.

Which is understandable, but then... surely you can LOGICALLY realise this, even if it doesn't come naturally to you?

I would have at least thoguht you'd be capable of that, given the wealth of experience you supposedly have.

Give me a more consistent principle of rights than this. You can't. Everything else is arbitrary.

[Adam]

What you don't understand is that...

Lol, there you go again.

This kind of arguing just makes you look kind of inept. It's not that I don't understand it; it's that I disgree with you

the biggest "sociopaths" are not convicted at all.

While I don't know about "biggest" (what does that mean mean?) I'd agree that MOST sociopaths aren't serial killers etc, yes

They are running your country, my country, the EU etc and have all the weapons they could ever wish for.

Many sociopaths go into politics, yes. I reckon more go into business though actually

[RageBeoulve]

I could kill you with a pencil. Just sayin.

Yep. But a pencil is not designed as a weapon. And of all its uses, killing is not really up there near the top.

We'v been over this before.

A bible isn't designed as toilet paper either, but it gets the job done just fine. Yes we've been through this Adam, but this argument hold absolutely no weight with me. I'm sorry, but this point of view just seems absolutely incoherent with reality. Objects are not just what you want them to be, and neither is the physical world. Even if it was somehow possible to ban guns, and also keep criminals from getting them, the killings would not stop by a longshot.

Something else is causing this problem, and nobody seems to want to admit it because they know that a social problem is a lot more difficult to address than simply the removal of an object.

[RageBeoulve]

Its also very unfortunate that we seem to have similar goals, yet disagree about the nature of the obstacles to achieving them.

[TheoK]

Adam could benefit from free guns. He doesn't look like the kind of guy that would do very well in a fight against a "chav" or what the English call them.

[Adam]

I could kill you with a pencil. Just sayin.

Yep. But a pencil is not designed as a weapon. And of all its uses, killing is not really up there near the top.

We'v been over this before.

A bible isn't designed as toilet paper either, but it gets the job done just fine. Yes we've been through this Adam, but this argument hold absolutely no weight with me. I'm sorry, but this point of view just seems absolutely incoherent with reality. Objects are not just what you want them to be, and neither is the physical world. Even if it was somehow possible to ban guns, and also keep criminals from getting them, the killings would not stop by a longshot.

Something else is causing this problem, and nobody seems to want to admit it because they know that a social problem is a lot more difficult to address than simply the removal of an object.

I complete agree with the last part.

Which is why I don't envy you. The gun problem in America is going to be much harder to solve, of course. I'm not naive enough to think that if your guns were outlawed tomorrow, everyone would bend over and take it without any shit. I know it wouldn't happen like that and I don't KNOW how would be the best way of going about that. I do however think that your society would be better off if you DIDN'T have guns.

And the Bible-toilet paper analogy doesn't quitte work. Using a bible as toilet paper is harmless. And also rare. It's pretty insignificant. Also kind of the wrong way round.

A better example for you to use would have been swords. Designed as weapons but not just used as weapons. The problem is that they're also not PRIMARILY used as weapons these days though, so aren't really a problem. Guns are though.

[Adam]

Its also very unfortunate that we seem to have similar goals, yet disagree about the nature of the obstacles to achieving them.

:agree:

I respect you for at least feeling strongly about improving the world, however misguided I feel your views are (I'm sure you feel the same way about mine haha)

[RageBeoulve]

Its also very unfortunate that we seem to have similar goals, yet disagree about the nature of the obstacles to achieving them.

:agree:

I respect you for at least feeling strongly about improving the world, however misguided I feel your views are (I'm sure you feel the same way about mine haha)

Indeed. Its a complicated fuckin issue, especially because of our cultural differences. I not only worry about the backlash to a gun ban(which would be sooo violent and unpleasant), but also the several years of adjustment that criminals would have a free hand. Our law enforcement is insufficient even now at stopping under the table gun trades and sales from our borders. I garauntee that the only people a gun ban in my country would currently effect is the law abiding citizen, and it would put them in serious danger. Perhaps in the future something like this would work, but there will still be the hunting and sports shooting complaint.

I said it before, and i'll say it again. I am 100% for reasonable gun control which could have positive results in my country. I suggested the gun license scenario, as I think that would take care of a large percentage of the accidental injury and death cases, while at the same time giving people better skills to deal with an armed criminal.

I have confidence that this would neutralize a large chunk of gun violence in my country. The other part of the problem is a social one, and it has possible roots in the way parents are raising their children, education, pharmaceuticals, and many other obscure things that I could not begin to understand nor offer a solution to yet.