Author Topic: Iowa FTW  (Read 18036 times)

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TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #165 on: September 17, 2013, 01:20:02 AM »
On that note:
Ordinary people will do fucked up things when fucked up things become ordinary.

Lets give everybody a gun, promote competition through capitalism and nullify the government and laws.  Volunteerism....what could go wrong?

How could it possibly go more wrong than it is today?

It is incredible that most people don't understand that 99% of the things that are wrong on this planet is because of the state. They think that this is bad but that it would be 1000 times worse without a government. But anarchy works perfectly if the society is just small enough.

Comprising one person, maybe.

Last I checked, the population was more than one.

Modern Times

I have posted this before. Why do you keep denying it? When Brentwood was Modern Times, they had no cops, no courts and no crimes. Everyone signed a social contract, a real one on paper, not a false imaginary one. Everyone followed the rules voluntarily.

TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #166 on: September 17, 2013, 01:23:07 AM »
In many (most?) countries in Europe it is very hard to legally kill in self-defence. The state monopoly on violence is so important here that it is better - from the state's point of view - that a law-abiding citizen is killed or wounded for life than that a burglar or rapist etc. gets what he deserves.

It *should* be hard. The risk of some moron getting it wrong is not insignificant and innocent would die.

You mean "innocent" like some burglar breaking into your house 3 o'clock in the morning? I know a case where a man got one year in jail for firing a gun over the head of a burglar. The burglar was 20 years old. The other man was almost 70 and suffered a heart attack from the event, yet got one year. Swedish "justice" at its very best.

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #167 on: September 17, 2013, 08:30:05 AM »
Anyway,  it seems obvious to me that in order to become a tyrant and turn on your own people you must have  x2  'a' 's in your first name.

Like  Muammar al-Gaddafi, Bashar al-Assad, Saddam Hussein, Ossama bin laden.

Now let's think :apondering:
David Cameron,  Vladimir Putin.  Barack Ob.... :o :o :o :o


Yikes!
blah blah blah

TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #168 on: September 17, 2013, 08:32:36 AM »
Adalwulf  :orly:

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #169 on: September 17, 2013, 09:01:10 AM »
Anyway,  it seems obvious to me that in order to become a tyrant and turn on your own people you must have  x2  'a' 's in your first name.

Like  Muammar al-Gaddafi, Bashar al-Assad, Saddam Hussein, Ossama bin laden.

Now let's think :apondering:
David Cameron,  Vladimir Putin.  Barack Ob.... :o :o :o :o


Yikes!

That was a funny coincidence, but yes. Yes Obama is a total asshole. Only problem with the two As theory? George dubya didn't have that in his first name.
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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #170 on: September 17, 2013, 09:10:24 AM »
Niggas be trollin in here.

And you think you could overthrow the government with your rifles?

When they have the military at their disposal? Get fucking real.

I suggest you go back and read the exchange we had earlier about that EXACT same statement. Your reason is failing, but we can dance that dance again, if you want. I'm willing to bet that even though you have a posse which agrees with you, I will still technically defeat your stance because I have a ridiculous amount of information at my disposal on the subject of guns and government, and i'd bet my testicles that you do not. You likely get your information from media, and word of mouth from like minded friends.

Bring it, Adam. It could be fun if you got serious about it. I really enjoy stomping all over disillusionment.

His point is the same as mine and very, very simple. It takes a lot more than guns to overthrow a government today, corrupt or otherwise. The illusion of an armed citizen as hinted by the 2d amendment is just that, an illusion. If you want enough firepower to overthrow your government, you'd better make the NRA more efficient because they are lobbying for the wrong thing.

You might as well use harsh words.

If you go back and read instead of skim, you will discover I stated very clearly that it takes more than firearms to overthrow a government, but there is no chance without them. Let me paraphrase. Firearms are required for rebellion, along with many other tecniques and equipment. This being said, yes I do think it is possible to take on the American government and straighten them out, IF everyone pulled their heads out of the sand and stopped being irresponsible little faggots. As in this is their mess to clean up, not the government's.

I think that should indeed be part of the training. In this way, the public who wished to own firearms would have the basic skills a soldier is given, and be able to make those quick judgements based on experience. For instance, one would quickly scan an attacker for weapons. If they are armed with a gun, then kill them. If they are armed with anything else, shoot them in the leg or the arms.

That's an excellent point. Thanks for bringing it up.

What ever happened to warning shots? You know, your kid's friend's cue to go "Wait! It's me!"

If someone receives the proper training, they will be able to judge whether or not an attacker is a threat. There should be no need for warning shots. If someone makes the mistake of going for someone with a knife, they should be ready to accept the fact that they may get a hole in their leg.

This is bullshit, Rage. There are plenty of examples of trained folks getting it wrong.

Lazy trained folks. Trained folks that don't give 110% in their job. Yeah i'm sure you could show me plenty of examples of those. Find me an example of one motivated and dedicated soldier or law enforcement officer who "got it wrong". I CHALLENGE YOU, sir.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Adam

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #171 on: September 17, 2013, 11:52:28 AM »
Do you think we should all be allowed military helicopters, missiles and grenades too? Because, let's face it, with nothing but your rifle, you#re gonna do FUCK ALL to the government.


TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #172 on: September 17, 2013, 11:54:16 AM »
Do you think we should all be allowed military helicopters, missiles and grenades too? Because, let's face it, with nothing but your rifle, you#re gonna do FUCK ALL to the government.

Of course. Why should the military have monopoly on those weapons?


Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #173 on: September 17, 2013, 12:03:24 PM »
Do you think we should all be allowed military helicopters, missiles and grenades too? Because, let's face it, with nothing but your rifle, you#re gonna do FUCK ALL to the government.

Adam... I did not say that a revolution consists of marching single file to wherever the "ILLUMINATI" has their "SECRET BASE" and point their rifles at the building and shoot bullets at it like an idiot. (I said illuminati and secret base to be funny)


^ That's what you seem to be talking about here. Sorry dude, but that's really retarded.

Its far more complicated, but I will say that without firearms, revolution would be impossible.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #174 on: September 17, 2013, 12:06:43 PM »
Adam doesn't have the right spirit! :arrr:

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #175 on: September 17, 2013, 12:12:33 PM »
Adam doesn't have the right spirit! :arrr:

I'm starting to think he actually doesn't understand these concepts, Lit. I've seen that the guy is pretty into activism, and seems to really care about humanity. Seems like the right "spirit" to me. Maybe he -really- doesn't get it.  :dunno:
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #176 on: September 17, 2013, 12:19:08 PM »
I think that he actually doesn't understand the concept. Many people here in Sweden don't understand the concept either. I'm pretty unusual having these views myself here, even if I do know a few others who have them.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #177 on: September 17, 2013, 12:25:07 PM »
I think that he actually doesn't understand the concept. Many people here in Sweden don't understand the concept either. I'm pretty unusual having these views myself here, even if I do know a few others who have them.

It just seems like basic common sense and something a toddler would be able to understand, but perhaps it isn't. I mean how would banksters and other criminals dig into economics and politics so solidly if people actually understood what they were up to?

It would seem the majority really can't spot social engineering and con artistry even when its right under their noses. And even when they do, they're "fine with it" most of the time. It blows my mind. They ask questions like, "well what am I supposed to do about it", or "but hasn't it always been that way?". As if that makes things acceptable.

It blows. My fucking. Mind.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:28:32 PM by RageBeoulve »
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #178 on: September 17, 2013, 02:15:43 PM »
It seems quite bizarre in a place where government are voted in by the people.

Actually, US citizens only vote directly for one branch out of the three (theoretically) equal branches of the federal government. The President is elected by the Electoral College, and the Supreme Court is appointed. Even members of Congress can, in special circumstances, gain office without being elected.

How would you find them? How would you spot the loner who might bring his dad's gun to school one day but leave be the other loner who is, I dunno, a spazz, like you and me? And if the former said "no, I promise, I won't shoot anyone, never even entertained the idea", would you bring him in by force?

And how would that be supporting your notion of personal freedom?

Your logic is faulty, Odeon. Although it seems to work, you can't work backwards from who is destined to be a school shooter. People have free will, and they control their own destinies. It's a matter of probabilities and warning signs. As for the actual process, here are two links that outline the general principles.

How is my logic faulty? I asked how you'd spot the nutters you wanted to treat. I pointed out that it isn't a realistic option because you'd have to find them first.

Yes, quite a few of them were bullied but guess what: even more people were bullied but never went on to shoot anyone.

Call me crazy but I'd not limit myself to a single plan t prevent future shootings; I'd make sure to limit access, too. I know, it hurts your 'merican notions of freedom but that is a more fundamental difference between you and me than anything else here.

I suspect you're correct on that. Given the dilemma of safety versus freedom on this issue, I'd prefer freedom. Evidently, you would prefer safety.

You let your idealism get in the way of rationality. I wouldn't let them drive either. Not a question of freedom, just logic.

Good. It's logical to ignore the rights of the minority in favor of the preferences of the majority. In this case, though, I think I have proven my rationality. I have backed myself up with logic and evidence.

Driving is a privilege; owning a gun is a right.

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I would not limit myself to one plan, either, but issuing a blanket ban on the legally blind owning guns is not one of the plans that I'd agree with.

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You seem like a rational person, Semi, rational and reasonable, but I sense the opposite when discussing guns.

Guns are not about freedom, basically. They have nothing to do with it other than on the surface, they are tools that can be used for just the opposite. In fact, they are more often used for just the opposite, in spite of what your 18th century principles would suggest.

A gun is a tool in the sense that a screwdriver is a tool. I already said that. Whether it is used for good or evil depends on the user.

Which is sort of what I said, above, but I do believe a comparison with a screwdriver is fundamentally flawed. Pretty sure most armies aren't equipped with screwdrivers.

I'd suspect otherwise; how else would they fix their guns? ;)

How is it irrational to see a gun as a tool? It's used by people to get what they want, whether that's enjoyment from target shooting, food from hunting or safety from self-defense. Yes, it can be used for evil, but that depends on the user.

A gun was not designed for enjoyment. It may be used for it now, but it wasn't designed for it. I realise the argument is necessary to defend your notion of freedom ("guns don't kill" etc) but don't kid yourself.

A screwdriver, on the other hand, is pretty specific. It is actually a tool, and it's all it is. Try to take out an opponent with it.

Actually, the argument works better when guns are used for what they're designed for. Then, instead of being a theoretical exercise, this becomes a practical argument with real consequences. Why shouldn't the blind be entitled to the same rights as the sighted?

In the interest of backing myself up, I've included two links to cases in the UK where screwdrivers were used as murder weapons.

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But the question here is why the fuck anyone in their right mind would think it's OK to give a gun to someone legally blind, shrug and say that they are just as liable as anyone else?

You talk about prevention in one case but reject the idea in another.

I don't see any contradiction. Responsible gun ownership is a matter of individual capability. You keep posting bare assertions instead of backing yourself up, as if we're all supposed to accept without proof that no legally blind people is capable of using a gun. There are many types of blind. Do you think that all blind people see nothing except a cloud of black?

Rather than letting stereotypes of the blind rule the discussion, let's have some evidence. Here is a series of pictures that depict the US definition of "legally blind". Look especially at the last one. Would you argue that an individual with that impairment couldn't go to a shooting range and safely blast a few holes in a paper target?







These image are approximations, created to give someone with normal vision *some* idea of the problems involved. A very simple addition would be to add how poor lighting conditions affect the vision, but even that would have to be simulated.

But if this was about a tool used at a shooting range, I probably would not protest too much. But that's not the case here, is it? Be honest.

Of course they're approximations. Everyone is different in what they experience. As for what the tool is used for, that is always in the hands of the user. Like sighted people, legally blind people must be sure to use their guns responsibly, and only in ways that they are capable of doing safely.

Sorry but I find this bizarre and can't be bothered to repeat my stance again.

Your stance so far has been a collection of stereotypes and bare assertions. How is it bizarre to hold that people are responsible for themselves?
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TheoK

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Re: Iowa FTW
« Reply #179 on: September 17, 2013, 02:27:27 PM »
You can't argue with most Europeans about guns. There are the few of us that understand that gun ownership is a right and a means for protecting freedom.

Then there is the rest, in my country and many more even including many or most of the gun owners, who are so thorougly brainwashed by propaganda that it is impossible for them to understand the concept.