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Author Topic: Attack on Syria imminent  (Read 6410 times)

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TheoK

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2013, 01:12:53 AM »
I can see the equivalency of the Civil War and the American Revolution, but you leave out a few details. Regardless of sovereignty, no person has the right to keep slaves. Perhaps Lincoln acted unethically (and we could argue about this for a while), but I don't see how he broke the law there. He certainly bent the law at other times in his presidency.

The Civil War wasn't about slavery. It was about forcing the southern states to rejoin the union. If they had left for other reasons they would most probably still have been forced back.

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The US populace may not have cared if Hitler had enslaved Europe, but the leadership was sending aid to the Allies before we formally entered into the war. That's backwards from the usual setup nowadays.

One little detail is that the UK gave the US copies of all important inventions that they had, especially for military purposes, like the radar.

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You focus so much of your attention on the US without paying any attention to other countries. Do you claim that the USSR was acting altruistically by instituting the Warsaw Pact? What about the Japanese imperialism that helped lead to WWII? Nazi Germany's annexation of most of Europe?

Some of the Nazis might ironically have thought that what they did they did for a good cause. The same is probably true for some Soviet leaders. The US interventions have never been about anything else than money.

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Not modern enough for you? How about the British occupation of Gibraltar and Cyprus? How about China's control of Taiwan and Tibet? I hear a lot of talk about American oppression from you but little about other countries'. All nations act according to their interests.

Sure, but America is the only Western country that does it with the blatant lie that it is for freedom and democracy.

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2013, 04:16:25 AM »
Six RAF Typhoon's have been deployed to Cyprus in a defensive posture.

Also the Syrian Gov have sent this letter to all UK MP's
blah blah blah

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2013, 04:22:59 AM »
It is a very well written letter, with it's 'Shakespeare' quote.   :apondering:
blah blah blah

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2013, 06:15:12 AM »
I can see the equivalency of the Civil War and the American Revolution, but you leave out a few details. Regardless of sovereignty, no person has the right to keep slaves. Perhaps Lincoln acted unethically (and we could argue about this for a while), but I don't see how he broke the law there. He certainly bent the law at other times in his presidency.

The Civil War wasn't about slavery. It was about forcing the southern states to rejoin the union. If they had left for other reasons they would most probably still have been forced back.

You have grossly oversimplified the matter. You've completely left out the issues of nullification, "perpetual union", and states' rights. Also, you haven't explained what law Lincoln broke.

It's easy for you to sit there and declare that the North was wrong. Where do you stand on the slavery part of it? The South wanted to secede, therefore they should have been allowed to do so. I can understand your position on that. But, if the South had seceded peacefully, the North would be justified in invading to free the slaves. Consider this in a modern context: if a modern-day country was publicly keeping four million people in captivity as forced labor, wouldn't the US be justified in doing something about it?

Even if everything else is thrown away, your point still fails.

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The US populace may not have cared if Hitler had enslaved Europe, but the leadership was sending aid to the Allies before we formally entered into the war. That's backwards from the usual setup nowadays.

One little detail is that the UK gave the US copies of all important inventions that they had, especially for military purposes, like the radar.

And if we had allied with Germany we could have completed their heavy water experiments with them. We shared things with the the Allies, such as aircraft, tanks and food. That's what allies do.

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Quote
You focus so much of your attention on the US without paying any attention to other countries. Do you claim that the USSR was acting altruistically by instituting the Warsaw Pact? What about the Japanese imperialism that helped lead to WWII? Nazi Germany's annexation of most of Europe?

Some of the Nazis might ironically have thought that what they did they did for a good cause. The same is probably true for some Soviet leaders. The US interventions have never been about anything else than money.

Yet I still don't see you using the Nazis as an example of the evils of imperialism. Do you have any evidence that the US has never intervened militarily for altruistic reasons?

The US concern with money must be why we overcharged the Allies for all of the military supplies we sent them during WWII. :thumbup:

Wait... Link

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Not modern enough for you? How about the British occupation of Gibraltar and Cyprus? How about China's control of Taiwan and Tibet? I hear a lot of talk about American oppression from you but little about other countries'. All nations act according to their interests.

Sure, but America is the only Western country that does it with the blatant lie that it is for freedom and democracy.

I see that you qualify that with "Western country". What about the Communist interventions during the Cold War? The "People's Republic of China" has something to say about that as they spread the "workers' revolution" to Taiwan.

We can argue this all day, Lit. The fact remains that you paint all US military action with the broad brush of an evil overlord, and you don't back up your assertions with fact or logic. I don't appreciate it. You certainly don't have to tell me about the bad things that the US government is doing; I live here. However, your dislike of current US foreign policy doesn't justify you portraying all of US history as being a string of illegitimate military actions. Yes, there are a fair number of them in our past and present (more than our fair share), but you portray the entire history of the US as being lies. Why not back yourself up, or go talk about China?
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TheoK

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2013, 07:58:55 AM »
You have grossly oversimplified the matter. You've completely left out the issues of nullification, "perpetual union", and states' rights. Also, you haven't explained what law Lincoln broke.

It's easy for you to sit there and declare that the North was wrong. Where do you stand on the slavery part of it? The South wanted to secede, therefore they should have been allowed to do so. I can understand your position on that. But, if the South had seceded peacefully, the North would be justified in invading to free the slaves. Consider this in a modern context: if a modern-day country was publicly keeping four million people in captivity as forced labor, wouldn't the US be justified in doing something about it?

I'm against slavery, but that has nothing to do with the matter, since slavery wasn't the reason for the war. The reason was that some states left the USA and weren't allowed to so do by the US government. It is of course illegal to provoke a war against another nation.

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And if we had allied with Germany we could have completed their heavy water experiments with them. We shared things with the the Allies, such as aircraft, tanks and food. That's what allies do.

The thing is that the US always does what benefits the US. If it doesn't benefit the US the US doesn't do it.

Quote

Yet I still don't see you using the Nazis as an example of the evils of imperialism. Do you have any evidence that the US has never intervened militarily for altruistic reasons?

We are not talking about the Nazis. The Nazis never claimed to be democrats either.

Give me one example of US intervention for altruistic reasons then.
 
Quote
The US concern with money must be why we overcharged the Allies for all of the military supplies we sent them during WWII. :thumbup:

Wait... Link


 :facepalm2:

That proves my point, not yours. Lend-Lease was to defeat the Axis...for the reason of US power worldwide.

Quote

I see that you qualify that with "Western country". What about the Communist interventions during the Cold War? The "People's Republic of China" has something to say about that as they spread the "workers' revolution" to Taiwan.

But that's not the topic here. We are talking about the United States of America invading other countries since 150 years back for false reasons.
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We can argue this all day, Lit. The fact remains that you paint all US military action with the broad brush of an evil overlord, and you don't back up your assertions with fact or logic. I don't appreciate it. You certainly don't have to tell me about the bad things that the US government is doing; I live here. However, your dislike of current US foreign policy doesn't justify you portraying all of US history as being a string of illegitimate military actions. Yes, there are a fair number of them in our past and present (more than our fair share), but you portray the entire history of the US as being lies. Why not back yourself up, or go talk about China?

Most things the US ever did were lies, yes. Unfortunately. The US being the US it wants the world to believe that it is would have been the best country on Earth.

China isn't about to attack Syria for the sake of "democracy".

TheoK

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2013, 10:06:28 AM »
But speaking about Nazis - this "terrorist" nonsense isn't new:


Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2013, 01:09:08 PM »
Well, back to a lovely debate we were havi-

Oh.
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Offline Calavera

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2013, 01:16:01 PM »
Six RAF Typhoon's have been deployed to Cyprus in a defensive posture.

Also the Syrian Gov have sent this letter to all UK MP's


Oh yeah, the Syrian Gov is now speaking on behalf of the fathers and mothers whom they have no problem slaughtering whenever they don't do things their way.

From what I've noticed, you can sometimes tell if one is innocent/guilty just by how they respond to the accusations against them. An innocent person will tend to go out of his way to defend himself and clarify the truth of what went on or of what he knows exactly. The guilty, instead, either plays victim or goes on the offensive without even attempting to clarify things in defense of themselves.

Offline Semicolon

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2013, 01:59:30 PM »
You have grossly oversimplified the matter. You've completely left out the issues of nullification, "perpetual union", and states' rights. Also, you haven't explained what law Lincoln broke.

It's easy for you to sit there and declare that the North was wrong. Where do you stand on the slavery part of it? The South wanted to secede, therefore they should have been allowed to do so. I can understand your position on that. But, if the South had seceded peacefully, the North would be justified in invading to free the slaves. Consider this in a modern context: if a modern-day country was publicly keeping four million people in captivity as forced labor, wouldn't the US be justified in doing something about it?

I'm against slavery, but that has nothing to do with the matter, since slavery wasn't the reason for the war. The reason was that some states left the USA and weren't allowed to so do by the US government. It is of course illegal to provoke a war against another nation.

You say "illegal" as though it is somehow synonymous with "unethical". It isn't. I'd still like to know where you think Lincoln broke the law.

You didn't answer my question. Wouldn't the US be justified in doing something about slavery?

Quote
Quote
And if we had allied with Germany we could have completed their heavy water experiments with them. We shared things with the the Allies, such as aircraft, tanks and food. That's what allies do.

The thing is that the US always does what benefits the US. If it doesn't benefit the US the US doesn't do it.

As with all nations. But even the US has moments of altruism.

Quote
Quote

Yet I still don't see you using the Nazis as an example of the evils of imperialism. Do you have any evidence that the US has never intervened militarily for altruistic reasons?

We are not talking about the Nazis. The Nazis never claimed to be democrats either.

Give me one example of US intervention for altruistic reasons then.

I refer you to my earlier post discussing US foreign aid. If you're looking specifically for a military operation, I refer you to Operation Tomodachi.
 
Quote
Quote
The US concern with money must be why we overcharged the Allies for all of the military supplies we sent them during WWII. :thumbup:

Wait... Link


 :facepalm2:

That proves my point, not yours. Lend-Lease was to defeat the Axis...for the reason of US power worldwide.

Hitler started WWII to expand Axis power worldwide. Germany's expansion and later invasion of Poland caused the Allies to declare war.

Quote
Quote

I see that you qualify that with "Western country". What about the Communist interventions during the Cold War? The "People's Republic of China" has something to say about that as they spread the "workers' revolution" to Taiwan.

But that's not the topic here. We are talking about the United States of America invading other countries since 150 years back for false reasons.
Quote
We can argue this all day, Lit. The fact remains that you paint all US military action with the broad brush of an evil overlord, and you don't back up your assertions with fact or logic. I don't appreciate it. You certainly don't have to tell me about the bad things that the US government is doing; I live here. However, your dislike of current US foreign policy doesn't justify you portraying all of US history as being a string of illegitimate military actions. Yes, there are a fair number of them in our past and present (more than our fair share), but you portray the entire history of the US as being lies. Why not back yourself up, or go talk about China?

Most things the US ever did were lies, yes. Unfortunately. The US being the US it wants the world to believe that it is would have been the best country on Earth.

China isn't about to attack Syria for the sake of "democracy".

But China has "intervened" elsewhere for the sake of communism. So had the USSR.

You still haven't addressed my latter point.
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TheoK

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2013, 02:02:37 PM »
The US helped Japan. Isn't Japan an important business partner and has a strategic position?

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2013, 02:08:31 PM »
Does Syria have a central, Rothschild run bank yet?

^ Now that is the right question.

And the answer is no, to the best of my knowledge. But I bet they will soon.  :dunno:
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They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

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Offline bodie

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »
Six RAF Typhoon's have been deployed to Cyprus in a defensive posture.

Also the Syrian Gov have sent this letter to all UK MP's


Oh yeah, the Syrian Gov is now speaking on behalf of the fathers and mothers whom they have no problem slaughtering whenever they don't do things their way.

From what I've noticed, you can sometimes tell if one is innocent/guilty just by how they respond to the accusations against them. An innocent person will tend to go out of his way to defend himself and clarify the truth of what went on or of what he knows exactly. The guilty, instead, either plays victim or goes on the offensive without even attempting to clarify things in defense of themselves.

Well,  our parliament decided today to take another vote after the report from UN.  Our PM was hoping to get enough support to issue a blank cheque for military action,  but he failed.  The reason ?   Iraq.

Iraq weighs heavy.  It was a balls up.  We (the public) were misled. 

The Syrian government know this, as is the reference in the letter.  I believe that letter was written by a Brit for them,  it is too  'British'  :orly:

TBH I don't think the cost (although relevant) is really going to stop our involvement.  We are learning more and more how our Iraq intervention caused death and suffering  to innocent people.   There is also debate over the type of intervention and how dangerous bombing a place with chemical warfare could be?

I hate it, Calavera,  not knowing the full facts.  I hated seeing those images on TV with the children screaming!  I am sure most people here want to help the people of Syria.  It has become a 'hot potato' due to Iraq.  We are told by the PM that the chemical attack was highly likely to be  by the Syrian regime,  but there is no unequivocal 100% guarantee.  We are not privy to all the information, though.
blah blah blah

Offline Semicolon

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2013, 02:11:03 PM »
The US helped Japan. Isn't Japan an important business partner and has a strategic position?

You run into that problem with any act of altruism anyone does. Even if it doesn't directly benefit the altruist, doesn't it benefit him/her by making the altruist feel good?

Unfortunately, I have no way around that rhetorical speed bump.

Here is an article describing US aid to Pakistan, and its effect on US-Pakistani relations.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 02:13:27 PM by Semicolon »
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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #88 on: August 29, 2013, 02:13:23 PM »
Six RAF Typhoon's have been deployed to Cyprus in a defensive posture.

Also the Syrian Gov have sent this letter to all UK MP's


Oh yeah, the Syrian Gov is now speaking on behalf of the fathers and mothers whom they have no problem slaughtering whenever they don't do things their way.

From what I've noticed, you can sometimes tell if one is innocent/guilty just by how they respond to the accusations against them. An innocent person will tend to go out of his way to defend himself and clarify the truth of what went on or of what he knows exactly. The guilty, instead, either plays victim or goes on the offensive without even attempting to clarify things in defense of themselves.

Well,  our parliament decided today to take another vote after the report from UN.  Our PM was hoping to get enough support to issue a blank cheque for military action,  but he failed.  The reason ?   Iraq.

Iraq weighs heavy.  It was a balls up.  We (the public) were misled. 

The Syrian government know this, as is the reference in the letter.  I believe that letter was written by a Brit for them,  it is too  'British'  :orly:

TBH I don't think the cost (although relevant) is really going to stop our involvement.  We are learning more and more how our Iraq intervention caused death and suffering  to innocent people.   There is also debate over the type of intervention and how dangerous bombing a place with chemical warfare could be?

I hate it, Calavera,  not knowing the full facts.  I hated seeing those images on TV with the children screaming!  I am sure most people here want to help the people of Syria.  It has become a 'hot potato' due to Iraq.  We are told by the PM that the chemical attack was highly likely to be  by the Syrian regime,  but there is no unequivocal 100% guarantee.  We are not privy to all the information, though.

I like you.

"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

TheoK

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Re: Attack on Syria imminent
« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2013, 02:14:36 PM »
The US helped Japan. Isn't Japan an important business partner and has a strategic position?

You run into that problem with any act of altruism anyone does. Even if it doesn't directly benefit the altruist, doesn't it benefit him/her by making the altruist feel good?

Unfortunately, I have no way around that rhetorical speed bump.

Here is an article describing US aid to Pakistan, and the effect on US-Pakistani relations.

Pakistan also has a strategic position.

Has the US ever helped a really poor African country without a strategic position and without valuable resources?