Suicide

[bodie]

Some people suffer from mental problems, especially depression, to an extent comparable with excruciating physical illness.

If they always feel unhappy then feeling nothing would be an improvement.  By killing themselves they improve their emotional state.

No, they *end* their emotional state.

Let's say emotions are like positive and negative values.  Misery is negative, happiness is positive, and no-emotion is zero.  Going from a negative value to zero is a positive.

I guess.    That's how I've always thought of it, anyway.

I don't think of it that way.  If your emotional state is negative then if you are alive there a several million different things in the world that could happen to make you happier.

Dead might mean zero to you,  to me it means no possibility of improvement,  which is a negative anyway, 

[Pig]

I don't buy that. Between good and bad emotions should be those that are neither good or bad, but that still are emotions.

My analogy is not perfect, but I think "zero" represents nonexistence quite well.

[Pyraxis]

I agree with Bodie's take.


When I'm very depressed I just stop moving. Eventually it passes enough that I can start moving again and doing things by rote. After a while the rote habits build up enough momentum that I can start caring about things again. It doesn't get any more complicated than that.

[Adam]

tbh I kinda agree with Pig on that.

if you're feeling shit, then killing yourself doesn't improve things for you, but it means nothingness. Which woulld be a lack of pain

I'm not saying suicide is "the answer" btw. but for the person who does it, they are no longer in pain

the people who suffer are obviously the ones left. if you don't care about anyone else, then suicide has no negatives (unless you fuck it up)

[Pig]

I don't think of it that way.  If your emotional state is negative then if you are alive there a several million different things in the world that could happen to make you happier.

Dead might mean zero to you,  to me it means no possibility of improvement,  which is a negative anyway, 

It's true one's emotional state can improve with time, but it becomes a game of probability.  If you have spent 10 years depressed, with no remedy helping, then it is fair to think it's improbable that you will improve.

Also, some may choose death over even one more moment of torture.  Would you rather die immediately, or spend several years being mutilated by sadists?

[Adam]

Dead might mean zero to you,  to me it means no possibility of improvement,  which is a negative anyway, 

I think this is where teh state of mind (of the person contemplating suicide) comes into it. If they have reached the point where they can't see any possibility of improvement anyway, then they lose nothing through death. Especially if they believe life can get worse. It can't get worse after death

therefore thru suicide, the possibility of improvement remains the same, while the possibility of increased pain disappears

[Pig]

When I'm very depressed I just stop moving. Eventually it passes enough that I can start moving again and doing things by rote. After a while the rote habits build up enough momentum that I can start caring about things again. It doesn't get any more complicated than that.

Some people are never granted respite from their suffering.  And if someone is considering suicide, that is likely the case for them.

[Pyraxis]

Ok, let me be a little more clear. I support the right to commit suicide.

[bodie]

I don't think of it that way.  If your emotional state is negative then if you are alive there a several million different things in the world that could happen to make you happier.

Dead might mean zero to you,  to me it means no possibility of improvement,  which is a negative anyway, 

It's true one's emotional state can improve with time, but it becomes a game of probability.  If you have spent 10 years depressed, with no remedy helping, then it is fair to think it's improbable that you will improve.

Also, some may choose death over even one more moment of torture.  Would you rather die immediately, or spend several years being mutilated by sadists?

I think i would cling onto my life to the very end,  in case superman showed up!

[Adam]

When I'm very depressed I just stop moving. Eventually it passes enough that I can start moving again and doing things by rote. After a while the rote habits build up enough momentum that I can start caring about things again. It doesn't get any more complicated than that.

Some people are never granted respite from their suffering.  And if someone is considering suicide, that is likely the case for them.

I don't agree with this. There are and have been way more people considering suicide who WILL/would have at least some relief from suffering eventually. Most people who contemplate suicide will at some point feel better about life. You can evevn see that here , by the number of members who've considered suicide in the past, but are glad they didnt go thru with it

[Adam]

I don't think of it that way.  If your emotional state is negative then if you are alive there a several million different things in the world that could happen to make you happier.

Dead might mean zero to you,  to me it means no possibility of improvement,  which is a negative anyway, 

It's true one's emotional state can improve with time, but it becomes a game of probability.  If you have spent 10 years depressed, with no remedy helping, then it is fair to think it's improbable that you will improve.

Also, some may choose death over even one more moment of torture.  Would you rather die immediately, or spend several years being mutilated by sadists?

I think i would cling onto my life to the very end,  in case superman showed up!

I think I would too tbh. But to me, that's actually a scary though. I've read of so much suffering (mostly due to my interests - holocaust, ww2, soviet union), and often think about what I would do in certain situations. I think my "will to live" would always overrule everything, no matter how much pain I was in. And that scares me. Not being able to go through with it and end things. Having some kind of animal desire to live, against all odds. It's almost irrational, although it's biologically rational. if that makes sense

I think almost all people are like that ^

But then there are a minority who lack that. And those are the people who, when things get to that low point, will be most likely to resort to suicide. I remember a study they did on the brains of suicide victims a few years ago. They respond differently to pain (emotional pain). I can't remember the technicalities of it, but I',m sure there's plenty of info online

I don't know why some people lack that all-conquering "will to live", but they do. Right now, I'm relieved I dont, as I might have turned to suicide at one point myself, and it would have destroyed the people closest to me. But sometimes I do feel... scared... by it. The thought that I'm ruled by this fucking illogical need to live, even in the shittiest circumstances imaginable. All because I'm programmed to pass on my genes, which I'm destined never to pass on

[bodie]

I did say earlier i think it should be a 'right' to end it if you want.   I don't have a problem with it. 

I just don't see it as something to like or love,  which is how you began this thread.

I also think adults should have the 'right' to do what they like with their bodies while they are alive.  So long as they don't harm others.  If i want to stuff myself full of drugs,  i don't think i should be subject to prosecution - providing i don't give drugs to anyone else.  Basically,  if it's a question of 'rights' then yeah i agree.  Just don't feel any connection with suicide myself.

[Adam]

I don't feel a connection with it either. If no one cares about the person, then I guess it doesn't matter. But in most cases, there ARE people left behind. And the consequences are devastating. I've seen what suicide does to families and there's no way i'd ever like or love that

But I also think it should be anyone's right to take their own life whenever they see fit. which is why I support assisted suicide

[Squidusa]

I tried to bite my tongue but here goes:

Being suicidal is not a concious decision nor is it a rational state of mind.

When you are suicidal it is like walls caving in on you , you cannot see a way out and that is what you seek, being trapped in depression of that extent is something I don't think anyone can fully understand unless you've been there yourself.

and no I don't mean "Baww lifes so bad , I want to die"

I mean , seeing life and seeing how utterly meaningless it is , viewing yourself as a complete and utter waste of life and fantasising about ending your life. Then actually acting (or attempting to) act on those urges.

I also think it's extremely unfair to lable suicide as "selfish" , it is out of desperation and a lot of times the view of the person who is suicidal is that they are doing their loved ones a favour.

[Adam]

and a lot of times the view of the person who is suicidal is that they are doing their loved ones a favour.

This is one of the thigns that bothers me most when people talk about how selfish someone is for killing themselves

How many of them actually do it out of spite? Usually they genuinely believe their family is better off without them. that is the state of mind they are in. which is not their fault