Author Topic: Does intuition favor God's existence?  (Read 6773 times)

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Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2014, 05:07:00 AM »
Believe as long as man has existed, he has looked to the sky for answers to the unknowable, so yes, intuition favors God's existence.

For most of the time that humans have existed, there have been no rational scientific explanations for many things. It was natural to see conscious intent and great power behind things like the sun, the wind, life itself, and so on.

"The unknowable" is shrinking as science advances. God Of The Gaps is finding less gaps on which to stake his claim for existence. Is it ignorance or intuition that favours belief in God?
Welcome back. Am thinking the unknowable is still much the same as it's always been. perhaps a better way to have put it would have been, intuition favors belief, rather than existence, agreed.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:08:44 AM by Jack »

Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2014, 05:07:44 AM »
Not sure why Calavera changed the title of this thread. It makes for an interesting question. Believe as long as man has existed, he has looked to the sky for answers to the unknowable, so yes, intuition favors God's existence.

Define intuition.
It already has a definition.

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2014, 10:14:38 AM »
Intuition favors god's existence the way Adam and Eve favor it.

Offline odeon

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2014, 10:38:07 PM »
Not sure why Calavera changed the title of this thread. It makes for an interesting question. Believe as long as man has existed, he has looked to the sky for answers to the unknowable, so yes, intuition favors God's existence.

Define intuition.
It already has a definition.

It's not intuition you're talking about, it's fear.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #154 on: August 22, 2014, 04:17:09 PM »
Not sure why Calavera changed the title of this thread. It makes for an interesting question. Believe as long as man has existed, he has looked to the sky for answers to the unknowable, so yes, intuition favors God's existence.

Define intuition.
It already has a definition.

It's not intuition you're talking about, it's fear.

Jack sighs and copy/pastes the definition.

in·tu·i·tion
/ˌint(y)o͞oˈiSHən/
noun: intuition
the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.
synonyms: instinct, intuitiveness; More
sixth sense, clairvoyance, second sight
•a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning.


Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #155 on: August 22, 2014, 06:32:44 PM »
Believe as long as man has existed, he has looked to the sky for answers to the unknowable, so yes, intuition favors God's existence.

For most of the time that humans have existed, there have been no rational scientific explanations for many things. It was natural to see conscious intent and great power behind things like the sun, the wind, life itself, and so on.

"The unknowable" is shrinking as science advances. God Of The Gaps is finding less gaps on which to stake his claim for existence. Is it ignorance or intuition that favours belief in God?
Welcome back. Am thinking the unknowable is still much the same as it's always been. perhaps a better way to have put it would have been, intuition favors belief, rather than existence, agreed.
Thanks Jack.

Norse people heard thunder and intuition told them that it was caused by a supernatural person, a God, with a very big hammer. Nowadays we don't believe in Thor because we know what really causes thunder.

Several ancient cultures worshipped the Sun, it brought life and it moved across the sky all by itself. Intuitively they assigned Godliness to the Sun. The ancient Egyptians even believed that a great dung beetle pushed it across the sky. Now we know what the Sun is and why it generates light and heat, and we also know that it doesn't really move across the sky every day. We don't tend to worship the Sun any more.

I totally agree with you though. Intuition does favour belief in Gods, and more recently the major belief systems have modified that to a belief in a single God. That doesn't make it true, actually based on man's history of making Gods up to explain things that we couldn't understand I'd say that the opposite is true.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #156 on: August 22, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »
Yes, intuition is emotional and without reason, and do believe people intuitively have the sense or feeling of there being, something, something out there, greater than the self or anything else. This discussion is bringing to mind a parallel to my points in the recent discussion of will, and how people's own self-awareness causes an intuitive sense of a transcendent self, beyond the limitations of one's own biological matter. It seems very much the same to me.

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #157 on: August 22, 2014, 06:49:25 PM »
What happens next is people redefine things, and redefinitions are frustratingly common.

So, if you ask most people, "intuition" is the same as "instinct" (although it isn't), so it becomes automatically legitimized.

In fact, the nature of word definitions itself confuses many. I had a long lasting argument with my friend, wether or not a movie-character was "a sociopath or a psychopath", I kept trying to explain to him that he got it all wrong, first of all, there was very little of actual medical observation in his statements, mostly just musings of his own, and secondly, he did not comprehend what I meant, when I said that these words are human inventions, and one word has replaced the other.
He kept arguing back to me that that might very well be my "opinion" but that his "opinion" was that sociopathy and psychopathy were two distinct conditions. He then went on to list symptoms:
For "sociopath" he correctly listed typical sociopathic tendencies and symptoms.
For "psychopath" he listed, almost perfectly, the symptoms of PTSD.

To which I spent the next arguments trying to explain how words come to exist, especially medical/science words.
I had a similar discussion about dinosaurs, where he was convinced all dinosaurs had the species-name "rex", obviously something he overheard and misunderstood from a docu, and I had to explain, from zero, HOW a dinosaur name even comes to exist. There is like this unexplored assumption that a dinosaur fossil is dug out, allready with a nametag "Hi", and a failure to ever consider for a moment that, hey, names are GIVEN to the bone, and attached a definition: Why is this thing named this and not that? Well because: *list of features*

The same goes for medical terms

And finally for every-day words.
I am free to call a dog a cat, but I must then be prepared to confuse a lot of people.

Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #158 on: August 22, 2014, 07:21:49 PM »
Always understood the only meaningful distinction between the two, is psychopaths are born and sociopaths are raised. There's also a bit of argument within the mental health field over the discontinuation of the use of the terms. because while criminality is included in the criteria for ASPD, it isn't a requirement; so one could argue that while all psychopaths and sociopaths have ASPD, not everyone with ASPD is a psychopath or sociopath, and the element of criminality is the defining difference.

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2014, 07:51:51 PM »
Always understood the only meaningful distinction between the two, is psychopaths are born and sociopaths are raised. There's also a bit of argument within the mental health field over the discontinuation of the use of the terms. because while criminality is included in the criteria for ASPD, it isn't a requirement; so one could argue that while all psychopaths and sociopaths have ASPD, not everyone with ASPD is a psychopath or sociopath, and the element of criminality is the defining difference.

In Norwegian, I have always heard that the two terms are completely synonymous, reflected also by the fact that the Norwegian wiki redirects the terms to one and the same page.

If criminality is the defining difference, would that then mean that the difference between the conditions is determined by the laws of a country? :0

Either way, mostly pointing out the very unexplored understanding of a definition, that most people have. I dunno how to explain it. Most people seem to assume all concepts exist with a word attached from forever.
Something as trivial as a scientist naming a dinosaur. My friend thought of it as if there was some high, mighty, un-humorous authority, granting names to fossils from even before their discovery, not thinking of it in detail, rather never having given it any thought at all, and when pressured to, finding it very difficult to imagine.

For example - as an individual, according to ICZN rules and biological tradition, I am completely free to "lump" Albertosaurus into Gorgosaurus, and say they are the same.
My friend was almost offended by this, how can I possibly do that??? The _SCIENTISTS_ have found out that the dinosaurs were called so and so, I guess the scientists found the names inscripted in the fossil, and who am I to argue?
I then tried to explain that - this is how it works:
Species names represent, well, the species. If I am to fuck around w species names, I need to take measurements, careful study of the fossil, and create a list of my arguments - taking the features allready listed to define the species, and comparing the features to another species, making my argument. If my argument holds, and everyone's convinced, then the new species name will become the norm.
Genus names are much easyer, since they are not bound as hard to evidence. "Splitting" and "Lumping" is so common, almost every published dinosaur book has a few re-definitions of dinosaurs here and there, Tarbosaurus bataar is often accepted to be Tyrannosaurus bataar, since Tarbosaurus and Tyrannosaurus are close to identical, but named differently for sentimental and national-pride reasons (Tarbosaurus was found in Asia, mainly China, Mongolia and USSR, in the Cold War, so, something as lame as this contributed to this almost-identical-to-Tyrannosaurus recieving a distinct name).
Albertosaurus and Gorgosaurus are also close to identical, only details separating them. It is quite clear they are two different species: libratus and sarcophabus. But it is up to each individual reader to accept or not that they are two different genera - so, it is completely free and open for me to synonymize them. Then, _according to the rules_ the oldest name will have priority, rendering them both to: Gorgosaurus libratus, and Gorgosaurus sarcophagus.

My friend disagreed. And added that according to the docu, they were all called "rex"

This all becomes even more boggled, since my friend is assuming that I am doing what HE is doing: just musing, just contemplating, just guessing what is more logical. "It's not logical to just change dinosaur names at will!"
And all he has to do is excamine the topic. And there it is. Yes. You can change dinosaur names at will - to a limit. You cannot re-define species as you please, but you can do almost anything you want with genus-names (just don't expect a lot of acceptance of your ideas)

One of the leading paleontologist "celebs" recently published a book, where he did a bunch of hardcore lumping, effectively "eliminating" a whole range of peoples "favorite dinosaurs" :D
He did not eliminate their species, so, in reality, he did nothing to them, he considers every single species as valid as ever. He just considered them spread out over a redundant ammount of genera, and similar enough to all be stashed under a single genus (like many modern mammals and birds are)
His publication was met with a lot of emotion. There were no practical arguments against his decision, because, to be frank, there were no good reason to keep all these similar genera as separate. People were just pissed off he went out of his way to remove a bunch of cool names. And of course, his changes are far from permanent. Everyone else just have to ignore what he did.

A bit of a rant here
tltr - the conflict between guessing how a methodology works, and actually having checked, gives rise to further confusion.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:57:28 PM by ZEGH8578 »

Offline odeon

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2014, 02:46:21 AM »
Not sure why Calavera changed the title of this thread. It makes for an interesting question. Believe as long as man has existed, he has looked to the sky for answers to the unknowable, so yes, intuition favors God's existence.

Define intuition.
It already has a definition.

It's not intuition you're talking about, it's fear.

Jack sighs and copy/pastes the definition.

in·tu·i·tion
/ˌint(y)o͞oˈiSHən/
noun: intuition
the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.
synonyms: instinct, intuitiveness; More
sixth sense, clairvoyance, second sight
•a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning.

So, explain to me how intuition was involved when, say, a caveman watched a thunderstorm, terrified because he didn't understand what was going on, and assumed an evil sky-being was angry at the world.

It's not intuition--knowing things without conscious reasoning--it's fear.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2014, 02:51:21 AM »
I do think that using "intuition", or "instinct" for that matter, when discussing the (false) gut reaction of deducing the existence of a supernatural being is just wrong.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see that the definition fits.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2014, 05:25:43 AM »
So, explain to me how intuition was involved when, say, a caveman watched a thunderstorm, terrified because he didn't understand what was going on, and assumed an evil sky-being was angry at the world.


It's not intuition--knowing things without conscious reasoning--it's fear.
Will have to take that up with Webster to define fear as a sense of knowing without conscious reasining. Not claiming intuition is rational; by definition it's not. Some fear is rational.


I do think that using "intuition", or "instinct" for that matter, when discussing the (false) gut reaction of deducing the existence of a supernatural being is just wrong.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see that the definition fits.
That's exactly what intuition is, a gut reaction, and that's how it's defined.

Offline Jack

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #163 on: August 23, 2014, 05:42:46 AM »
Always understood the only meaningful distinction between the two, is psychopaths are born and sociopaths are raised. There's also a bit of argument within the mental health field over the discontinuation of the use of the terms. because while criminality is included in the criteria for ASPD, it isn't a requirement; so one could argue that while all psychopaths and sociopaths have ASPD, not everyone with ASPD is a psychopath or sociopath, and the element of criminality is the defining difference.

In Norwegian, I have always heard that the two terms are completely synonymous, reflected also by the fact that the Norwegian wiki redirects the terms to one and the same page.

If criminality is the defining difference, would that then mean that the difference between the conditions is determined by the laws of a country? :0
That's an odd way to view it, but in a manner yes. It's the first of the criteria.
1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

As for naming dinosaurs, your friend should discover something, thus giving him the entitlement to name it, then maybe he will understand what you're saying. :laugh:

Offline odeon

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Re: Does intuition favor God's existence?
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2014, 01:41:41 AM »
So, explain to me how intuition was involved when, say, a caveman watched a thunderstorm, terrified because he didn't understand what was going on, and assumed an evil sky-being was angry at the world.


It's not intuition--knowing things without conscious reasoning--it's fear.
Will have to take that up with Webster to define fear as a sense of knowing without conscious reasining. Not claiming intuition is rational; by definition it's not. Some fear is rational.


I do think that using "intuition", or "instinct" for that matter, when discussing the (false) gut reaction of deducing the existence of a supernatural being is just wrong.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see that the definition fits.
That's exactly what intuition is, a gut reaction, and that's how it's defined.

But it implies *knowing*, which just isn't the case here.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein