Author Topic: Random observations from your day  (Read 84180 times)

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Offline Parts

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2640 on: February 21, 2015, 09:39:39 AM »
Max needs a brushing
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

Offline Walkie

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2641 on: February 21, 2015, 11:40:58 AM »
If someone has mental health illness with which they are struggling to handle, it is the worst thing to tell them to kill themselves or tease them. How will they recover in that kind of environment?

Yes, and certainly if she had read the responses to the articles during the hunt for her, it would not have helped.
As it is, her body was found by a common where I often walk. I am guessing she was so terrified of the court appearance that she just overloaded. Sad for the children left behind. There is still so little understanding in regards to mental health issues, from what I see. Granted, it does not excuse someone from committing a crime but equally, it does not justify people being so callous.

I totally agree with SG and graelwyn, here.  :clap:

If you're gonna push a vulnerable person's buttons, then you're playing wth fire yourself.  So then we have to ask the witch-hunters: what's their excuse?  And self-righteousness ain't a good enough excuse, IMO.

Offline Jack

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2642 on: February 21, 2015, 12:14:48 PM »
Two awesome cats woke people up.

I saw on the comments of the later article someone being taken to task for their previous callous comments. A hypocrite right there.
Yes, probably shouldn't have come back to pretend empathy.

If you're gonna push a vulnerable person's buttons, then you're playing wth fire yourself.
Still can't help but to view people who sleep in the same building as an arsonist as the more vulnerable ones. To say the perpetrators of certain crimes which classify them as dangerous are mentally unwell only elicits the response of, that's correct. Am viewing this reaction of pushing of buttons to be related to the suicide, because if the result had instead been a murderous rampage then the point of provocation might not garner nearly as much sympathy. Though really thought your initial comment on the topic was mainly related to the initial sentence, humans can be vicious hypocrites, and not entirely based on people being calloused, so was able to understand the reaction to that level of hypocrisy.

Offline Walkie

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2643 on: February 21, 2015, 03:09:30 PM »
Two awesome cats woke people up.

I saw on the comments of the later article someone being taken to task for their previous callous comments. A hypocrite right there.
Yes, probably shouldn't have come back to pretend empathy.

If you're gonna push a vulnerable person's buttons, then you're playing wth fire yourself.
Still can't help but to view people who sleep in the same building as an arsonist as the more vulnerable ones. To say the perpetrators of certain crimes which classify them as dangerous are mentally unwell only elicits the response of, that's correct. Am viewing this reaction of pushing of buttons to be related to the suicide, because if the result had instead been a murderous rampage then the point of provocation might not garner nearly as much sympathy. Though really thought your initial comment on the topic was mainly related to the initial sentence, humans can be vicious hypocrites, and not entirely based on people being calloused, so was able to understand the reaction to that level of hypocrisy.
It's not a question of sympathy, but of being socially responsible.

Hurling abuse at somebody is a very good way of pushing them over the edge. If you know or suspect that the person you're hurling abuse at is dangerously unstable, then you're just as culpable as they are. More so, i would say, if you're perfectly stable yourself, just morally indignant.

What I mean is: somebody, at some point in a chain of events has to take responsibility for it.  By "taking responsibility " I mean trying to make things work out better; not wringing your hands and crying "mea culpa" (in case my meaning  wasn't clear).

We can let unstable people, halfwits, etc off the hook, maybe. But "Outraged Citizen from Southend", no. If people really don't like any part of what happened, then they ought to be careful not to trigger it ; rather than  flaming out in an overly-transparent effort to prove to the world that they are not that type of person. To me, that demonstrates that "Outraged of Southend" doesn't really care, not deep down.

Disclaimer: No, I'm absolutely not getting at anyone in particular. Unusually, I didn't read the whole story prior to commenting

Offline Jack

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2644 on: February 21, 2015, 04:36:12 PM »
Had me with hypocrisy, but totally lost me with culpability. Moral indignance can probably be viewed from both sides of this topic. She was a dangerous criminal, and the comment she should jump from a bridge was a repugnant thing to say but in no way view it as holding any level of culpability for the death.

Offline Graelwyn

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2645 on: February 21, 2015, 04:43:18 PM »
I tend to view her as having been someone with mental health issues, who made a big mistake. I am not sure I would label her a dangerous criminal. Many mistakes which did not cause death or injury, could have led to such and there would be an awful lot of dangerous criminals wandering our streets if everyone who made a potentially dangerous mistake were labelled as such. To my knowledge, she was not a habitual arsonist. That is not to say what she did was in any way acceptable, but I feel one must take into account underlying issues and that most humans are prone to acting on impulse under extreme stress. But that is just my opinion. It is possible that my view is influenced by the fact I have mental health issues myself. I don't know.

Offline Jack

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2646 on: February 21, 2015, 04:50:09 PM »
That's a nice way of looking at it, but also wouldn't view a verbal attack as having responsibility in the situation. Arson is actually a crime, being a jerk isn't. She may not have been a habitual arsonist, but this person also probably didn't follow her around harassing her with taunts to kill herself.

Offline Graelwyn

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2647 on: February 21, 2015, 04:54:54 PM »
That's a nice way of looking at it, but also wouldn't view a verbal attack as having responsibility in the situation. Arson is actually a crime, being a jerk isn't. She may not have been a habitual arsonist, but this person also probably didn't follow her around harassing her with taunts to kill herself.

Oh yes, I would not say she killed herself due to comments posted on the newspaper's site... we do not even know if she actually read them, but they certainly will not have helped the situation if she had read them, as someone who is already in a very volatile state mentally, can very easily be triggered by comments like that.

Offline Jack

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2648 on: February 21, 2015, 05:11:09 PM »
Thanks for your patience in this discussion; points of provocation always tick me off due to viewing it as a character flaw of inability to claim responsibility for one's own actions. Absolutely a black and white judgmental response of me, but it is what it is so don't deny it. Won't bother to guess what someone else did to 'trigger' her to set fire to her home in the middle of the night, but can only hope her children weren't there with her sleeping while she did it. Am thinking an attempted homicide from a parent could be even more mentally scarring than a parent's suicide.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2649 on: February 21, 2015, 05:47:21 PM »
Overly judgmental people should jump off a cliff.  :zoinks:
:gopher:

Offline Walkie

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2650 on: February 21, 2015, 05:50:39 PM »
Thanks for your patience in this discussion; points of provocation always tick me off due to viewing it as a character flaw of inability to claim responsibility for one's own actions. Absolutely a black and white judgmental response of me, but it is what it is so don't deny it.
hang on. If we postulate that she was provoked , it's her actions we're disclaiming responsibility for, not ours, right? 

Not that I would call it "disclaiming responsibility" anyway, just examining a  chain of cause and effect. The big question is: what do we do about it ?

 Sometimes the weakest point in the chain (i.e, the mentally unstable individual) can find the strength to "take responsibilty" avoid a tragic outcome;more often, some stronger person needs to step in and take responsibilty instead

Taking responsibilty is a very different thing from assigning blame. And a very different thing from being guilty of anything.  It's about trying to behave like an adult.

Assigning blame only leads to person blamed being overwhelmed with feelings of guilt. You might say: well, they deserve to be overwhelmed with guilt . But whether that's true or not, guilt is not an empowering emotion, quite the opposite. It's most likely to drive that person into doing something equally destructive, or worse.  That's because it's always easier to be destructive, especially if you have it hammerered home that destructive is the only thing you can be, because that's the kind of person you are.

Now, i'm not obliquely trying to excue myself for some destructive thing I've done in my past, in case thatys what you're thinking.  (Probably the most destructive thing I've ever done is take an overdose way back when I was 18, in case you're wondering) . I'm just saying that's how the human mind works, like it or not. And I actually was overburdened with guilt in my childhood, which makes it easy for me to see how it works.  Once you're given a negative role by society, you have work insanely hard to step outside that role. 

That's how it works. And if we're gonna play some kind of  part in otherpeople's affairs, then it's better to play a constructive role, if we possibly can. Kicking someone when they're down never helps them, and never helps society either, never mind what kind of down it is. Kinder,  less messy, and more honest,  to just put a gun to their head. (huh. I'm almost with Dirt Dawg there)

If that woman had taken responsibility, she wouldn't have started that fire. If the commentators had taken resposibility, they woulda STFU rather than press her buttons. So, nobody took responsibility. Well that's how it normally goes. Most people in the world are far too busy avoiding blame to actually take responsility. I'd rather we all stopped, and just looked at what we're doing instead.

Offline Walkie

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2651 on: February 21, 2015, 05:53:04 PM »
Overly judgmental people should jump off a cliff.  :zoinks:

....or, yeah,  what the Gopher said!   :LMAO:

Offline Jack

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2652 on: February 21, 2015, 06:57:50 PM »
hang on. If we postulate that she was provoked , it's her actions we're disclaiming responsibility for, not ours, right? 
That's correct, but it all strikes the same nerve. It does strike as both blaming and shirking personal responsibility. It's most annoying when it's criminal activity at the provocation of words. He was provoked, she was provoked, they were provoked, I was provoked. Yes, provoked, so what? :laugh:
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 06:59:51 PM by Jack »

Offline Walkie

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2653 on: February 21, 2015, 07:05:15 PM »
hang on. If we postulate that she was provoked , it's her actions we're disclaiming responsibility for, not ours, right? 
That's correct, but it all strikes the same nerve. It does strike as both blaming and shirking personal responsibility. It's most annoying when it's criminal activity at the provocation of words. He was provoked, she was provoked, they were provoked, I was provoked. Yes, provoked, so what? :laugh:
hmm. amo , amas, amat, amamus, amatis ....
better now?  :eyelash:
(i still disagree with you though, tbh  :LOL:)

Offline Jack

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Re: Random observations from your day
« Reply #2654 on: February 21, 2015, 07:06:56 PM »
hmm. amo , amas, amat, amamus, amatis ....
better now?  :eyelash:
:laugh: