Author Topic: Another US shooting..  (Read 6749 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #390 on: November 23, 2017, 12:56:26 PM »
Here's a different way of looking at the problem:

Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period.

In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks.

Do read the rest of that page.

They are using the dishonest tactic of "gun deaths", 2/3rds of which are suicides.

There's roughly 10,000 murders per year in the US, about 80% of which are gang related.

When you eliminate those, the US homicide rate looks pretty close to that of Europe.

Quote
You might also want to read pages such as this one, on gun use for self-defence.

Clearly biased source.

You know, that whole "you have to get your lab settings right" thing??   :hahaha:

Yes, I know, but do you?

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.

And you are wrong, yet again. It's practically a given when you try to argue rather than name-drop.
To me it looks like you're saying that banning bombs didn't stop bombs going off therefore there is no point to gun control because it's a mental health issue. 

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #391 on: November 23, 2017, 01:40:07 PM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory. 

Ever got that feeling that you're trying to teach a dog a card trick?

Offline Go Piss Up A Rope

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #392 on: November 23, 2017, 01:59:13 PM »

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.


Yes, I looked at the links and even they admit their own data is suspect.
WTF???

Offline Go Piss Up A Rope

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #393 on: November 23, 2017, 02:00:22 PM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory.

No, there aren't a lot of murders if you don't count gang members killing each other.  :facepalm2:
WTF???

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #394 on: November 23, 2017, 02:43:36 PM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory.

No, there aren't a lot of murders if you don't count gang members killing each other.  :facepalm2:

Could you please explain why they don't count?
Ever got that feeling that you're trying to teach a dog a card trick?

Offline Go Piss Up A Rope

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #395 on: November 23, 2017, 02:51:12 PM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory.

No, there aren't a lot of murders if you don't count gang members killing each other.  :facepalm2:

Could you please explain why they don't count?
 

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other gangs that we have.

They skew the results.
WTF???

Offline Al Swearengen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #396 on: November 23, 2017, 03:02:11 PM »
Gun control, gun control, gun control....the only way to reduce gun death is to limit the size and amount of guns people can own ....no, how about enforcing existing gun rules, re-education and taking guns off the people that are not allowed them (mentally ill and criminals)?

Could THAT make a difference?
I don't want to hear it. Save your complaints to Odeon. Yes, we had decided to drop hostilities. No, I didnt expect that Odeon would do other than start shit again like he always does
You're not going to stick to "a handful people", are you? That would be stupid.
Damned if I won't respond.
So it's on again & you can lay the blame squarely at his feet. Little passive-aggressive bitch

Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #397 on: November 23, 2017, 04:19:48 PM »

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.


Yes, I looked at the links and even they admit their own data is suspect.

Sorry, I forgot I was talking to a person who thinks two million is only a handful.
To me it looks like you're saying that banning bombs didn't stop bombs going off therefore there is no point to gun control because it's a mental health issue. 

Offline Go Piss Up A Rope

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #398 on: November 23, 2017, 04:28:23 PM »

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.


Yes, I looked at the links and even they admit their own data is suspect.

Sorry, I forgot I was talking to a person who thinks two million is only a handful.

You keep misspelling 3%. It's almost as if you have a verbal tic or something.   :hahaha:
WTF???

Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #399 on: November 23, 2017, 04:33:21 PM »

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.


Yes, I looked at the links and even they admit their own data is suspect.

Sorry, I forgot I was talking to a person who thinks two million is only a handful.

You keep misspelling 3%. It's almost as if you have a verbal tic or something.   :hahaha:

Any other excuses you wish to embarrass yourself with? I'll admit that Al's bombs vs guns thing is hard to beat but you're making an excellent effort here.
To me it looks like you're saying that banning bombs didn't stop bombs going off therefore there is no point to gun control because it's a mental health issue. 

Offline Al Swearengen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #400 on: November 24, 2017, 02:12:07 AM »

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.


Yes, I looked at the links and even they admit their own data is suspect.

Sorry, I forgot I was talking to a person who thinks two million is only a handful.

You keep misspelling 3%. It's almost as if you have a verbal tic or something.   :hahaha:

Any other excuses you wish to embarrass yourself with? I'll admit that Al's bombs vs guns thing is hard to beat but you're making an excellent effort here.

I did not embarrass myself at all with that. If someone was foolish enough to try to extrapolate what I was not saying from what I was saying then not only is there no embarrassment nor need to counter a position I never made in the first place but they have only their own foolishness and any embarrassment THEY feel?

But I will not judge you unfairly just yet. I have no idea if this is what you are trying to do. (As unwise as it may be in inviting me out of just one thread that I have contained nastier disagreements with you). So please explain Odeon, nicely :)
I don't want to hear it. Save your complaints to Odeon. Yes, we had decided to drop hostilities. No, I didnt expect that Odeon would do other than start shit again like he always does
You're not going to stick to "a handful people", are you? That would be stupid.
Damned if I won't respond.
So it's on again & you can lay the blame squarely at his feet. Little passive-aggressive bitch

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #401 on: November 24, 2017, 05:09:04 AM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory.

No, there aren't a lot of murders if you don't count gang members killing each other.  :facepalm2:

Could you please explain why they don't count?
 

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other gangs that we have.

They skew the results.

I know precisely what you mean but I want you to verbalise it.

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other people people with dark skin?

Is that what you meant?  It only counts as human/murder if it's white folk?  Is that the point you're dancing around?
Ever got that feeling that you're trying to teach a dog a card trick?

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #402 on: November 24, 2017, 05:22:00 AM »

I did not embarrass myself at all with that. If someone was foolish enough to try to extrapolate what I was not saying from what I was saying then not only is there no embarrassment nor need to counter a position I never made in the first place but they have only their own foolishness and any embarrassment THEY feel?

But I will not judge you unfairly just yet. I have no idea if this is what you are trying to do. (As unwise as it may be in inviting me out of just one thread that I have contained nastier disagreements with you). So please explain Odeon, nicely :)

No one extrapolated anything.   Your post is below.  Why don't you explain what your point was if we all got it so very wrong.  It's meaning looks clear to me.

To me it looks like you're saying that banning bombs didn't stop bombs going off therefore there is no point to gun control because it's a mental health issue. 

Britain has been a victim of bombings from at least IRA conflict. I remember there was a spate of them, including on a double decker bus, some years ago. I remember not long ago little kids were blown to bits in a popstar concert.

No this issue is not solved. There is not the same bombing instances or culture in UK.

We thankfully know that if we ban bombs and make them illegal there wont be any more bombings. That is what they shoyld do.

If they have done this, then we may have to reassess the notion that banning weapons that potentially causes death and/or controlling it will not prevebt bad people from doing bad things and ignoring illegaility.

Maybe preventative measures and better mental health services and such is better than banning weapons from decent people who would not abuse them and bad people who will any way?

Of course it may be reasonable to do a bit of  both but I wonder whether goung to "ban them ban them" as people have a wont to do, is the reasonable course of action
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Offline Al Swearengen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #403 on: November 24, 2017, 05:34:19 AM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory.

No, there aren't a lot of murders if you don't count gang members killing each other.  :facepalm2:

Could you please explain why they don't count?
 

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other gangs that we have.

They skew the results.

I know precisely what you mean but I want you to verbalise it.

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other people people with dark skin?

Is that what you meant?  It only counts as human/murder if it's white folk?  Is that the point you're dancing around?

He has not said anything of the sort. He was talking as far as I saw about institutionlised gang culture who make up a small portion of the overall population but are such a large portion of the overall homicide/gun violence problem. If he was talking about the gangs that were most violent in Prison culture, he may have mentioned the Aryan Brotherhood as well. If he was talking about gangs that were responsible for skewing the number in drug running and the threat they posed with large scale distribution and standover tactics and such maybe he would talk about various Bikie Gangs or even the various Mafia groups including Italian and Russia Mafia groups and Triads and Tongs.

As it is he seemed to identify the gangs most involved in gun violence and I think he picked it rather well. NONE of this makes ANY point about race......AT ALL.

He did not make ANY racist point NOT even subtlety. Someone DID though. That was YOU. Again. Why is that?
I don't want to hear it. Save your complaints to Odeon. Yes, we had decided to drop hostilities. No, I didnt expect that Odeon would do other than start shit again like he always does
You're not going to stick to "a handful people", are you? That would be stupid.
Damned if I won't respond.
So it's on again & you can lay the blame squarely at his feet. Little passive-aggressive bitch

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #404 on: November 24, 2017, 06:04:18 AM »
So the amount of murders aren't that high if you don't count a lot of the murders.  That's almost on a par with Britain's bomb violence theory.

No, there aren't a lot of murders if you don't count gang members killing each other.  :facepalm2:

Could you please explain why they don't count?
 

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other gangs that we have.

They skew the results.

I know precisely what you mean but I want you to verbalise it.

Because Europe (which you are comparing us to) doesn't have the Mexican Mafia, MS13, Crips and Bloods and all the other people people with dark skin?

Is that what you meant?  It only counts as human/murder if it's white folk?  Is that the point you're dancing around?

He has not said anything of the sort. He was talking as far as I saw about institutionlised gang culture who make up a small portion of the overall population but are such a large portion of the overall homicide/gun violence problem. If he was talking about the gangs that were most violent in Prison culture, he may have mentioned the Aryan Brotherhood as well. If he was talking about gangs that were responsible for skewing the number in drug running and the threat they posed with large scale distribution and standover tactics and such maybe he would talk about various Bikie Gangs or even the various Mafia groups including Italian and Russia Mafia groups and Triads and Tongs.

As it is he seemed to identify the gangs most involved in gun violence and I think he picked it rather well. NONE of this makes ANY point about race......AT ALL.

He did not make ANY racist point NOT even subtlety. Someone DID though. That was YOU. Again. Why is that?

Al.  I was trying to find some sort of meaning in the post.  Otherwise if it is taken at face value it means that the action of criminals tends to skew the crime figures.  We should only include crimes done by non-criminals?  Yep.  That sure makes sense.

We have gangs.  Our gangs don't have unfettered access to guns.  Apart from that I think you'll find countries around the world are quite similar.

And also we tend to include crimes that are committed by criminals in crime statistics because we feel they may be an important part of, you know, factual fucking data.

Anything else we should leave out of things to make the numbers suit your argument?
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