Author Topic: Another US shooting..  (Read 13222 times)

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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #480 on: December 14, 2017, 06:22:59 AM »
I think "Z" is supposed to be banning the mentally ill.  Or bombs.  Or mentally ill bombs.

Can't follow a conversation can you Four Ace? Shame.

I follow you perfectly.  It's your logic that doesn't follow.

The argument went:

Al:  I say Z is true.
4AD:  got any proof
Al: I SAID Z
4AD:  Got any proof?
Al:  YOU ARE A MORON.

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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #481 on: December 14, 2017, 06:23:54 AM »
Or did I miss the part of this thread where Al won himself a Doctorate by posting up this thesis on the causal link between gun violence and mental health?
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #482 on: December 14, 2017, 07:37:30 AM »
Or did I miss the part of this thread where Al won himself a Doctorate by posting up this thesis on the causal link between gun violence and mental health?

Here is an interesting theory.

 Al posts on a forum and someone wants Al to post a thesis on something he wrote. He doesn't and this reflects badly on Al.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

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Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #483 on: December 14, 2017, 11:49:37 AM »
He's right. You still haven't proved anything. I do admire the X and Y move, though. Muddying the waters sometimes works when you don't have anything.
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #484 on: December 14, 2017, 01:01:00 PM »
Or did I miss the part of this thread where Al won himself a Doctorate by posting up this thesis on the causal link between gun violence and mental health?

Here is an interesting theory.

 Al posts on a forum and someone wants Al to post a thesis on something he wrote. He doesn't and this reflects badly on Al.

Everyone from the WHO down has done studies on mental health and violence and mental health and crime and there has never been any statistical link.  It is you who say otherwise.  I'd just like you to share your reading list on this matter. 

You are so emphatic that you are correct, I'm giving you the chance to prove it to others.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #485 on: December 14, 2017, 03:41:41 PM »
He's right. You still haven't proved anything. I do admire the X and Y move, though. Muddying the waters sometimes works when you don't have anything.

It was not muddying the waters though and saying I do not have anything is untrue. (and yes what I have posted refutes this whether a couple of members here insist on not entertaining it or not, does not mean that I have nothing nor that my reasoning is not perfectly valid - huge difference between that and having nothing and it would be untrue to infer they were the same).
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #486 on: December 14, 2017, 03:50:27 PM »
He's right. You still haven't proved anything. I do admire the X and Y move, though. Muddying the waters sometimes works when you don't have anything.

It was not muddying the waters though and saying I do not have anything is untrue. (and yes what I have posted refutes this whether a couple of members here insist on not entertaining it or not, does not mean that I have nothing nor that my reasoning is not perfectly valid - huge difference between that and having nothing and it would be untrue to infer they were the same).

I'm not saying you have nothing.  I'm just asking you to show me what you do have.  What's your issue with that?

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Offline Jack

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #487 on: December 14, 2017, 05:51:41 PM »
He seems to be saying people keep suggesting Y, but can't recall seeing anyone suggest Y. It seems nothing at all been suggested, and Y is simply assumed. Of course that's me assuming Y is outright banning guns in the US.

Y would be restricting measures on guns (gun control). It gets instant push back and is bought up again and again with the same result. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
In 1993 the Brady Act was adopted for handguns and extended to long guns in 1997. While this act may not be completely effective, statistics show background checks to have been effective by preventing the legal sale of firearms to convicted criminals, people with warrants, people with known substance abuse issues, perpetrators of domestic violence, and illegal aliens. Since 1993 US homicide rates and gun related crime rates have dropped over 50%. One might argue, the US already has gun control and it's effective because the facts show it's working, so better gun control isn't an insane suggestion.


There was a significant dip in the mid-80s, too, and the rate had started dropping again before the Brady Act.
Don't view the dip in the mid 80's as meaningful; it's sort of like the dip in the mid 70's, in the sense that it's simply a dip within an overall upward trend. Sort of like when violent crime rates occasionally bump up now; the long-term trend is still a downward trend. The slight decrease between the 1990 peak and 1993 seems insignificant for an argument that something else was trending prior to the Brady Act.

Offline Jack

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #488 on: December 14, 2017, 06:08:00 PM »
He seems to be saying people keep suggesting Y, but can't recall seeing anyone suggest Y. It seems nothing at all been suggested, and Y is simply assumed. Of course that's me assuming Y is outright banning guns in the US.

Y would be restricting measures on guns (gun control). It gets instant push back and is bought up again and again with the same result. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
In 1993 the Brady Act was adopted for handguns and extended to long guns in 1997. While this act may not be completely effective, statistics show background checks to have been effective by preventing the legal sale of firearms to convicted criminals, people with warrants, people with known substance abuse issues, perpetrators of domestic violence, and illegal aliens. Since 1993 US homicide rates and gun related crime rates have dropped over 50%. One might argue, the US already has gun control and it's effective because the facts show it's working, so better gun control isn't an insane suggestion.

Yes and No.

These 1990's Acts (no doubt there was some pushback on both) were at least viable to those with a "from my cold dead hands" view of any gun control on the basis that it did not affect them. "They were not taking their guns away from decent honest law abiding folks who were not at risk", they were taking it from the people they were at most risk from. The people THEY did not want in possession of guns.

Saying that you will stop mentally ill people or criminals from obtaining guns as a measure of gun control is a much easier sell than "Hey there friend, I know you are a decent person who loves their gun collection and considers it your constitutional right to bear those arms but in case YOU turn into a Psycho or a criminal, I am taking that big one off you there and that one over there too. It is for your own good." That sounds to some Americans as the government trying to disarm or reduce their rights.

It is like the gay marriage thing in Australia. Most of us are ambivalent about gay people getting married because it simply does not affect us. A gay person getting married does not hurt me or anyone else, so why would I care? It is completely reasonable for me to agree to this. However, if that means that for instance, the Church going crowd in Australia HAS to include gay friendly services and change the way they practice their religious doctrine to be more gay friendly, I would strongly object.
Not sure anyone has suggested taking anyone's property. There's several things the US could do to better gun control. Better enforcement of the existing laws is a good one. There's also requiring licensing, safety courses, hands-on and written testing to obtain licensing. Requiring the registration of firearms, and closing the backdoor in background checks via private sales. These are things the public supports.

Offline Jack

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #489 on: December 14, 2017, 06:09:09 PM »
He seems to be saying people keep suggesting Y, but can't recall seeing anyone suggest Y. It seems nothing at all been suggested, and Y is simply assumed. Of course that's me assuming Y is outright banning guns in the US.

Y would be restricting measures on guns (gun control). It gets instant push back and is bought up again and again with the same result. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
In 1993 the Brady Act was adopted for handguns and extended to long guns in 1997. While this act may not be completely effective, statistics show background checks to have been effective by preventing the legal sale of firearms to convicted criminals, people with warrants, people with known substance abuse issues, perpetrators of domestic violence, and illegal aliens. Since 1993 US homicide rates and gun related crime rates have dropped over 50%. One might argue, the US already has gun control and it's effective because the facts show it's working, so better gun control isn't an insane suggestion.

Good points. So does this lead us to conclude that the argument that gun control in the US is impossible is bollocks? And that the argument that gun control won't prevent violent crime is also bollocks?
Indeed. Jack makes excellent points. Bollocks? Difficult to say. Non-gun related violent crime has seen the same decline since the early 90's, and gun control can't really explain that. Which excellent point is better?

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #490 on: December 14, 2017, 11:05:07 PM »
He seems to be saying people keep suggesting Y, but can't recall seeing anyone suggest Y. It seems nothing at all been suggested, and Y is simply assumed. Of course that's me assuming Y is outright banning guns in the US.

Y would be restricting measures on guns (gun control). It gets instant push back and is bought up again and again with the same result. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
In 1993 the Brady Act was adopted for handguns and extended to long guns in 1997. While this act may not be completely effective, statistics show background checks to have been effective by preventing the legal sale of firearms to convicted criminals, people with warrants, people with known substance abuse issues, perpetrators of domestic violence, and illegal aliens. Since 1993 US homicide rates and gun related crime rates have dropped over 50%. One might argue, the US already has gun control and it's effective because the facts show it's working, so better gun control isn't an insane suggestion.

Good points. So does this lead us to conclude that the argument that gun control in the US is impossible is bollocks? And that the argument that gun control won't prevent violent crime is also bollocks?
Indeed. Jack makes excellent points. Bollocks? Difficult to say. Non-gun related violent crime has seen the same decline since the early 90's, and gun control can't really explain that. Which excellent point is better?

Can't I just assign peak excellentness to all of your points?

To be honest, any relief from the usual circular and unsubstantiated arguments against gun control gets a thumbs up.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #491 on: December 14, 2017, 11:14:58 PM »
Can't I just assign peak excellentness to all of your points?
Absolutely. :M:

Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #492 on: December 15, 2017, 12:52:26 AM »
He seems to be saying people keep suggesting Y, but can't recall seeing anyone suggest Y. It seems nothing at all been suggested, and Y is simply assumed. Of course that's me assuming Y is outright banning guns in the US.

Y would be restricting measures on guns (gun control). It gets instant push back and is bought up again and again with the same result. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
In 1993 the Brady Act was adopted for handguns and extended to long guns in 1997. While this act may not be completely effective, statistics show background checks to have been effective by preventing the legal sale of firearms to convicted criminals, people with warrants, people with known substance abuse issues, perpetrators of domestic violence, and illegal aliens. Since 1993 US homicide rates and gun related crime rates have dropped over 50%. One might argue, the US already has gun control and it's effective because the facts show it's working, so better gun control isn't an insane suggestion.


There was a significant dip in the mid-80s, too, and the rate had started dropping again before the Brady Act.
Don't view the dip in the mid 80's as meaningful; it's sort of like the dip in the mid 70's, in the sense that it's simply a dip within an overall upward trend. Sort of like when violent crime rates occasionally bump up now; the long-term trend is still a downward trend. The slight decrease between the 1990 peak and 1993 seems insignificant for an argument that something else was trending prior to the Brady Act.

Not sure I'd interpret the curve the way you do, but there is no way to know.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #493 on: December 15, 2017, 05:49:21 AM »
He seems to be saying people keep suggesting Y, but can't recall seeing anyone suggest Y. It seems nothing at all been suggested, and Y is simply assumed. Of course that's me assuming Y is outright banning guns in the US.

Y would be restricting measures on guns (gun control). It gets instant push back and is bought up again and again with the same result. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
In 1993 the Brady Act was adopted for handguns and extended to long guns in 1997. While this act may not be completely effective, statistics show background checks to have been effective by preventing the legal sale of firearms to convicted criminals, people with warrants, people with known substance abuse issues, perpetrators of domestic violence, and illegal aliens. Since 1993 US homicide rates and gun related crime rates have dropped over 50%. One might argue, the US already has gun control and it's effective because the facts show it's working, so better gun control isn't an insane suggestion.

Yes and No.

These 1990's Acts (no doubt there was some pushback on both) were at least viable to those with a "from my cold dead hands" view of any gun control on the basis that it did not affect them. "They were not taking their guns away from decent honest law abiding folks who were not at risk", they were taking it from the people they were at most risk from. The people THEY did not want in possession of guns.

Saying that you will stop mentally ill people or criminals from obtaining guns as a measure of gun control is a much easier sell than "Hey there friend, I know you are a decent person who loves their gun collection and considers it your constitutional right to bear those arms but in case YOU turn into a Psycho or a criminal, I am taking that big one off you there and that one over there too. It is for your own good." That sounds to some Americans as the government trying to disarm or reduce their rights.

It is like the gay marriage thing in Australia. Most of us are ambivalent about gay people getting married because it simply does not affect us. A gay person getting married does not hurt me or anyone else, so why would I care? It is completely reasonable for me to agree to this. However, if that means that for instance, the Church going crowd in Australia HAS to include gay friendly services and change the way they practice their religious doctrine to be more gay friendly, I would strongly object.
Not sure anyone has suggested taking anyone's property. There's several things the US could do to better gun control. Better enforcement of the existing laws is a good one. There's also requiring licensing, safety courses, hands-on and written testing to obtain licensing. Requiring the registration of firearms, and closing the backdoor in background checks via private sales. These are things the public supports.

I think that enforcing existing laws which I have mentioned again and again here is absolutely important.

The registration of Firearms unfortunately runs into a BIG problem. IF we can believe that the Constitution's amendment makes a case for the abstract concept of a possible Tyrannical Government needing to be defended against, then we have to think that 1) IF you want to tax all taxable citizens, you need to know who is earning taxable income and have databases of this, 2) IF you need to know who to target to put in religious/ethnic/racial internment camps, you need to have a database of who those peopel are before you round them up 3) IF you are a Tyranical Government and you wish disarm citizens from their lawful and Constitutional right to bear arms to protect themselves fom you......what do you need?

Safety Courses ARE offered by the NRA. But much like the services that are offered by Planned Parenting do NOT ONLY comprise of Abortion, these safety courses do not get as much publicity with the NRA as the thing the NRA is best known for which is gun Activism and promotion.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #494 on: December 16, 2017, 03:08:52 AM »
Yes, it's better not to do anything so the tyrannical government with tanks, fighter jets and nukes won't know who's got guns.
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