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Author Topic: Another US shooting..  (Read 5329 times)

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Offline Al Swearengen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #375 on: Today at 06:55:02 AM »

Are you saying that ANYTHING I said was false and if so let's argue those "false points"? Of course, IF you are saying they are simply things you disagree with then that is fine but do not dismiss everything I said as not factual.

Here is something for you to chew over. US is a relatively new country in comparison to England. Part of US history is a large portion of the citizens were escaping religious persecution. It also previously belonged to England as a colony before they  forcibly became independent from England. There was fighting to establish and maintain its borders to its individual states.

Their history has been founded on protecting themselves from persecution and in being free men. The Constitutional right to bear arms is grounded in the want to allow the free citizens the ability to defend themselves. Who from? From a Tyrannical Government. Maybe like they did with England? Maybe if their government persecuted them like the governments persecuted so many of them when they fled Europe to escape religious persecution? Regardless of who they were thinking or what hypothetical instance THEY would reckon equated to tyrannical, they wanted their citizens to have that protection and to be able to have the arms available to establish a militia if need be.

These are fact. We cannot read their mind to understand in which specific way they meant it nor what would be excluded their definition in respect to terms like "tyrannical" and "militia" and so on. But we have historical context and we have their words and it is in English. So we have facts.

So...America have a historical tradition and legally enforced history of protecting a constitutional right for it's citizens to bear arms which in no small measure is to counter any efforts from it's government to persecute its citizens.

Does England have that? Are they comparable in this way? Is this fact?

Regurgitating the same old gun lobby shite doesn't make a fact Al.

For about the tenth time I have to remind you that I haven't heard anyone mention a ban on guns.  That seems to be the thing you are complaining about but it only occurs in your re-framed arguments.

So hows uncontrolled gun ownership working out for people?  Are they protected against government?  It doesn't appear so to anyone outside (except for the gun lobby's court jester no doubt).  Meanwhile a mass shooting every day. Wow. That's real protection.

As for the rest of your garbage, it's funny that an Australian gets his world history from the gun lobby.  I thought the Australian school system was sharper than that but I guess you were off that day.  The state of the nation 250 years ago has fuck all to do with the state of society now.  It used to be enshrined in law that the British had to practice archery every Sunday so we could fight France who we were at war with on and off for a thousand years.  Guess what?  We don;t have a longbow in every house now.  WE EVOLVED.

Do you have any original thinking to share or just the same tired old dogma?

(And just to remind you, "gun control".  Not "gun ban".  Try and keep that in your mind long enough for you to post again.  And quotes are for use when you "quote".  It's so simple.)

What is NOT fact here and is shite? The history is shite? You can call anything shite or nopt fact but unless you are going to point to specifics it just looks like you do not like what is said because you do not like where that leads the argument.

NOW, you do have one thing right. I am NOT Australian. It matters to me very little if Americans have guns or not. I am not American. I do not think I will ever go to America. Their culture is not mine.

Pay attention to that last sentence.

You can say anything you like about how wrong it is or what have you. It is virtue signaling and screaming into the wind. If it is simply a case of the gun lobby, that is not a big thing. They do have a large membership but they are just a large interest group. So the solution is simple. Next time there is a tragedy someone should bring up a bill to not ban but simply limit guns. Now being that all I said was complete "shite" and "non-factual", then Senators will NOT risk the outrage and backlash from the constituents that they represent, and they will sign the bill in. The NRA will not be able to convince many Senators that their good favour is more valuable that the ire from the people from the state they represent.

See what an easy solution to gun control that is? Being that none of what I said is factual and it was all shite, the bill will get passed and it will be a quick trip to removing conceal carry, semiautomatic licences, and all that good stuff. I am all on board. Because what I said was shit, all of this will happen because it will be shown as NOT moral virtue signaling but rather the natural consequence of a society with any of those cultural underpinnings that I suggested that may prevent it.

Right? Don't back down on me here. Will it work or not? Has it worked whenever ANY Democratic Senator has brought in such bills and if so how often and how many times have they tried?

Why are we discussing this?  I thought you were telling us why gun controls were a bad thing?  But then you moved on to why they can't happen.

Have you ceded the point that decades of uncontrolled gun ownership has caused this?

Have you ceded the point that gun controls will reduce gun violence?

Have you ceded the point that there is no statistical link between mental health and gun violence?

I'll move on and discuss history and politics if you want, but can we clear up the basics before you move us on again?

Okay, I WILL cede a point because you seem desperate for that vindication and I will make it a big one.

I admit that there is NO statistical link between gun violence and mental health. I mean using Odeon's generously provided link allowing my laziness in my own research:

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

In 2010 "Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths.10"

None of these people suiciding 0/19392 has ANY mental health issues. There is NO statistical link there or to be honest even the remotest suggestion that people deliberately blowing holes in their head to kill themselves have the slightest thing wrong with them in respect to mental health.

I am with you. Let's defend against such silly notions.

Maybe they were reading one of Al's never-ending posts, waiting for an actual point that made a bit of sense, and suddenly death seemed like a pretty good option?

Maybe. (Was that it? Really?)
I don't want to hear it. Save your complaints to Odeon. Yes, we had decided to drop hostilities. No, I didnt expect that Odeon would do other than start shit again like he always does
You're not going to stick to "a handful people", are you? That would be stupid.
Damned if I won't respond.
So it's on again & you can lay the blame squarely at his feet. Little passive-aggressive bitch

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #376 on: Today at 09:56:00 AM »
Al.  You change the subject again.  The thread title - and the discussion- is about gun violence, not suicide.

Have you now ceded the whole gun violence argument and you want to move on to an entirely different subject?

Typical Al.  Misquote. Re-frame.  Change the subject.

Offline odeon

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #377 on: Today at 01:30:41 PM »
Did he ever get to the bottom of his bombs and guns thing? I can't be arsed to read his junk.
I know, I know, it's just that I don't know what should be there. :GA:
Could put some awesome Jack quote in there.

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #378 on: Today at 01:52:24 PM »
Did he ever get to the bottom of his bombs and guns thing? I can't be arsed to read his junk.

To be honest I wish I hadn't started reading his crap.  All it's done is reinforce what I already knew about him.

Offline Al Swearengen

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Re: Another US shooting..
« Reply #379 on: Today at 03:19:38 PM »
Al.  You change the subject again.  The thread title - and the discussion- is about gun violence, not suicide.

Have you now ceded the whole gun violence argument and you want to move on to an entirely different subject?

Typical Al.  Misquote. Re-frame.  Change the subject.

Mate, you won't even allow me to agree with you. Jesus! Most of gun death comes from suicides from well-adjusted people before they violently spray their heads everywhere and leave it for others to deal with the consequences of the violent action. The next group of people is homicides where there is deliberate intent to kill and we HAVE to say again that most people who deliberately and violently kill another person with a gun in America are perfectly rational and reasonable people with a very good mental health standing.

I am all with you mate. It was a good argument and how could I not agree and cede the point. It was what you wanted right? You are happy? Yes?
I don't want to hear it. Save your complaints to Odeon. Yes, we had decided to drop hostilities. No, I didnt expect that Odeon would do other than start shit again like he always does
You're not going to stick to "a handful people", are you? That would be stupid.
Damned if I won't respond.
So it's on again & you can lay the blame squarely at his feet. Little passive-aggressive bitch