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Author Topic: The Tragedy in Las Vegas  (Read 11075 times)

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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #195 on: October 15, 2017, 10:33:53 PM »
Reads to me like the behavior of a person who is suspicious about your intent.
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Offline odeon

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #196 on: October 16, 2017, 12:26:12 AM »
He responded to a troll's less than well-founded claims and then again to his own reply to the troll. Seemed to me that he was fishing for more drama and said as much, thinking that "get a life" is an appropriate response. Honestly, I can't see how that is particularly insulting.

Also, if he has no idea of why I won't engage in this discussion, I can't help him.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #197 on: October 16, 2017, 01:10:04 AM »
He responded to a troll's less than well-founded claims and then again to his own reply to the troll. Seemed to me that he was fishing for more drama and said as much, thinking that "get a life" is an appropriate response. Honestly, I can't see how that is particularly insulting.

Also, if he has no idea of why I won't engage in this discussion, I can't help him.

Try greeting people for one week with the phrase "Get a life"

As I say the claim was new, left field AND even topically relevant. Hardly drama. A "no idea" or "not really wanting to talk about it" would have put it to the sword without the drama that you have now created (presuming you were genuine in not wanting to either insult or start drama).
Me? I was curious (and am not the only one) and simply asked the question.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 03:13:22 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Lestat

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #198 on: October 16, 2017, 03:33:19 AM »
Jack. I've never been in a US prison. I've never been to the US for that matter.

But England is a wealthy enough first-world nation with the capacity to ensure that the facilities are, whilst no lap of luxury, not barbaric. There is a difference and a big one between unfavourable conditions and utter barbarism. I've SEEN it; firsthand, I KNOW what I'm talking about.

And you know what? the access to medical care is so primitive, that I was in seizure for so long, I was unaware there was food thrown through the door-hatch (and this on the medical wing) for so long that by the time it stopped I had, going from the looks of me, almost starved to death. Yes. No joking. I looked like the pictures you see of jews liberated from auschwitz and other concentration camps. It did permanent damage, and honestly, I am surprised either the seizures didn't kill me or the starvation did not (there was food thrown in, but you cannot eat what you do not know is there)
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

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Offline El

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #199 on: October 16, 2017, 05:33:28 AM »
Am not trying to pick a fight with you, but do think conversations with or between people who agree aren't interesting. I like having things explained to me, and I like when people challenge me to think differently about what I'm saying, and challenging them to think about what they say, even if it means contradicting them with things I don't even agree with. As said to someone else recently, disagreeing isn't always fighting, or something like that. Though correct, it's nothing more than an interesting topic to me. Do you really want links? Does it matter if they're abstracts or full access studies? Testosterone and violence have been studied for a long time so there's probably hundreds of them, but would be willing to take the time to sift for a couple of good ones if you could overcome my shits and giggles. If not, it's not that big of a deal.
Why on earth woudln't you link them?

Also, Jack, I think to you this is a fun and abstract thing to talk about and pick fights about.  It's none of those things to me.  I'm willing to engage with you because at least there's a chance of some kind of dialogue, but there's only so much energy I'm willing to put into it if someone's just trying to have an extra-spicy water cooler conversation for shits n giggles.

In what context do you think it should be discussed? Is it a professional boundaries thing, like a serious discussion is too much like your work? Or a personal objection maybe?
It's a me at my own personal limit thing.  This isn't abstract to me.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 05:35:17 AM by PMS Elle »
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline El

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #200 on: October 16, 2017, 05:48:38 AM »
Also, because the question of "victim mentality" keeps coming up- in this particular context, how the actual fuck else should we be conceptualizing the people who were on the receiving end of a bullet just for going to a fucking country music concert?  How should we conceptualize their loved ones?  Like, do you know the definition of the word victimThey are victims of murder.  Fucking christ.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooting-victims/index.html
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Lestat

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #201 on: October 16, 2017, 05:53:07 AM »
BTW for studies which are not open access and require payment I can get them without this inconvenience, just give me the DOI numbers, or at the very least, the PMIDs so that I can track the DOI down for a paper and download it, then upload it to a sharing/hosting site for anybody to download. Or alternatively just give a direct link to the paper in question.

And if this is too much then use sci-hub.cc or sci-hub.io (no www this will cause the site not to display) although not by way of a deliberate block, simply reentering the address without  the www prefix will cause it to work as it should.
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

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Offline Lestat

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #202 on: October 16, 2017, 06:54:02 AM »
And in respect of my earlier point Re: unfavourable conditions vs barbarism, an important point, is that such an environment as fostered by the latter, with an inmate constantly having no choice but to watch their backs against hostile encroachment upon personal space and if (or rather, WHEN) it happens, to demonstrate with extreme violence. Not only violence sufficient to end the immediate event, but also, in a 'dramatic' kind of way, to ensure that others seeing the event take place are made aware that the same would happen also to them, were they to try the same thing. To send a message that any messing with the person subject to attack will be met with extreme retaliation; this will, once become an ingrained pattern of behavior as it must do as a survival adaptation in such an environment of constant and unpredictable hostility, become the default response of the person in question without pre-release (or preferably during their incarceration mental healthcare accessibility that goes beyond simply continuing to medicate already diagnosed schizophrenics [and thats about as far as it gets inside], here, even in by far the best conditions)

The vulnerable, are as good as dead. And god help anybody who is LFA who were to get banged up, unless they were physically strong enough to beat the aggressor senseless or if not then of a very heavy-set build so as to deter people from trying merely by sight.

Even after putting weight back on, I was forced to fight for my life on a near daily basis. Until transferred, after something bad happened to somebody who attempted violence upon my person for the last time I was prepared to merely fight against, to max-sec at a different prison entirely, I don't remember there being a single day, other than those spent in solitary (the prison staff may not have known this, but this was to me, being autie, not a punishment, in fact they could well have used it in my case as a reward for good conduct, I'd actively try to get myself sent down the block since it meant not being surrounded by thugs, not being surrounded by the worst parts of society (bar the paeophiles. The vulnerable do have the option of requesting protective custody, but that means being housed in the same wing as the nonces, and it being assumed that the person in question IS a paedo, regardless of the reason. And its probably as unsafe as being in the main wings or more so. At least in the main section of the jails youre not likely to find ground up glass or poisons in your food, or human excrement. Never been in such 'protective' areas myself, but housing the vulnerable (for any other reason) with the sex offenders seems to me like a gross injustice way above and beyond the sentence handed down judicially as a function of legal due process, knowing that other, non-pervert offenders will take any and every opportunity available to make suffer, wound or kill anybody in this area of 'protective' custody. And from what I know of it, although never having been in this environment myself, having the only contact being through those in the hospital wing the screws themselves aren't particularly shy about joining in if they get the chance and cannot be seen to do it, and they certainly, from what I've been told by other inmates, won't lift a finger to break up a fight until it becomes obvious to all of the staff that permanent and serious injury or/and potential fatality is going to be the outcome (I.e they don't want the paperwork for somebody dying on their watch))

Once conditioning, and having to use that conditioning for potentialy many decades, its going to become ingrained deeply and a first response, making post-release violence more likely. And for those without a home to return to, being kicked out onto the street with nothing but whatever they are wearing, and whatever commissary they have at the time (I.e food, tobacco etc.) that gives them next to nothing to survive on, and their most basic need-food (water of course being more accessible without cost) an immediate concern, they are liable to get caught committing petty crime such as shoplifting just to put a meal in their stomachs, and when on parole, if caught, then sent back to serve the rest of their sentence, because they committed a further criminal offence, although petty, and for the direst of reasons (I.e do so and risk getting caught, or starve)

The employment prospects for ex-offenders are poor to near nonexistent for as long as the conviction is declarable so earning money legitimately is made extremely difficult also, leaving people with little recourse, getting hungrier and hungrier, weaker and weaker by the day unless the individual is extremely lucky. That is of course, for those either without family or those who do but which will not take the back.

If it wasn't for the fact I had family, and a place to return to, that is the situation I would myself have been forced into. I'd have had to steal, just to continue supplying my body with the carbohydrate and protein it needs to continue to function and have been on the street with nothing bar a few plastic bottles of drink, a few candy-type snacks of little nutritive value and some tobacco, papers and matches as well as the clothing on my back, were I most prisoners. I was in a sense, lucky, in that my family sent in, at my request, my personal stereo and music CDs, plus TIHKAL, PIHKAL and some other books. And during family visits, they'd buy food from vending machines and give it to me rather than eat it themselves, as well as send in some money for me to buy commissary food, and tobacco, since I couldn't do heavy manual labor courtesy of the joint injuries of old, and nerve damage resulting from the surgery I had on it and resultant mobility issues. (in the affected area of that leg its caused two effects, loss of sensation aside from pain, and below this, a constant and severe spasm of the calf. And inside I was denied even the myorelaxant I take to enable me to move properly and stop the calf muscle from being in severe, unremitting pain, the med in question also being somewhat hazardous physically to suddenly cease, being liable, in addition to subjectively most unpleasant rebound symptoms, to cause a massive and prolonged spike in blood pressure that in a severe case, or in the case of somebody with other cardiac or vascular issues could cause a heart attack or stroke)

There is a HUGE difference between 'negative reinforcement' and 'inhumane barbarism'

Jack-have you seen it from both sides? Have you ever had to stab somebody or stamp on somebody's face repeatedly just for the 'privilege' of sitting in your own cell to get some peace and quiet rather than going to the central communal mess-hall to consume your food, and to avoid having that food contaminated or outright stolen from you after a beating? Is this something you would condone as part of a judicial sentence?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 06:57:44 AM by Lestat »
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #203 on: October 16, 2017, 08:38:29 AM »
Am not trying to pick a fight with you, but do think conversations with or between people who agree aren't interesting. I like having things explained to me, and I like when people challenge me to think differently about what I'm saying, and challenging them to think about what they say, even if it means contradicting them with things I don't even agree with. As said to someone else recently, disagreeing isn't always fighting, or something like that. Though correct, it's nothing more than an interesting topic to me. Do you really want links? Does it matter if they're abstracts or full access studies? Testosterone and violence have been studied for a long time so there's probably hundreds of them, but would be willing to take the time to sift for a couple of good ones if you could overcome my shits and giggles. If not, it's not that big of a deal.
Why on earth woudln't you link them?

Also, Jack, I think to you this is a fun and abstract thing to talk about and pick fights about.  It's none of those things to me.  I'm willing to engage with you because at least there's a chance of some kind of dialogue, but there's only so much energy I'm willing to put into it if someone's just trying to have an extra-spicy water cooler conversation for shits n giggles.

In what context do you think it should be discussed? Is it a professional boundaries thing, like a serious discussion is too much like your work? Or a personal objection maybe?
It's a me at my own personal limit thing.  This isn't abstract to me.

Didn't you pick a fight with me? You got clowned, sure, but you did pick a fight...I think this goes some ways to the "victim" thing you are now trying to project to people being killed in Las Vegas? For an encore are you gonna tap dance on their graves?
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #204 on: October 16, 2017, 10:15:33 AM »
He responded to a troll's less than well-founded claims and then again to his own reply to the troll. Seemed to me that he was fishing for more drama and said as much, thinking that "get a life" is an appropriate response. Honestly, I can't see how that is particularly insulting.

Also, if he has no idea of why I won't engage in this discussion, I can't help him.

Try greeting people for one week with the phrase "Get a life"

As I say the claim was new, left field AND even topically relevant. Hardly drama. A "no idea" or "not really wanting to talk about it" would have put it to the sword without the drama that you have now created (presuming you were genuine in not wanting to either insult or start drama).
Me? I was curious (and am not the only one) and simply asked the question.

Fair enough, but surely you can see where I'm coming from. Honestly, Al, I don't think we have the kind of relationship where my first thought when asked that question in the middle of a flame war is "it's an honest question, no harm intended". If you think this is overly negative, then I'm glad to hear it.
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Offline Jack

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Offline Jack

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #206 on: October 16, 2017, 04:31:44 PM »
Jack. I've never been in a US prison. I've never been to the US for that matter.

But England is a wealthy enough first-world nation with the capacity to ensure that the facilities are, whilst no lap of luxury, not barbaric. There is a difference and a big one between unfavourable conditions and utter barbarism. I've SEEN it; firsthand, I KNOW what I'm talking about.

And you know what? the access to medical care is so primitive, that I was in seizure for so long, I was unaware there was food thrown through the door-hatch (and this on the medical wing) for so long that by the time it stopped I had, going from the looks of me, almost starved to death. Yes. No joking. I looked like the pictures you see of jews liberated from auschwitz and other concentration camps. It did permanent damage, and honestly, I am surprised either the seizures didn't kill me or the starvation did not (there was food thrown in, but you cannot eat what you do not know is there)
That's really awful, Lestat; it was wrong of them to do that to you.

BTW for studies which are not open access and require payment I can get them without this inconvenience,
Thanks for the offer, but I don't want or need it for those links. Will keep it in mind for some other time.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #207 on: October 16, 2017, 04:36:24 PM »
He responded to a troll's less than well-founded claims and then again to his own reply to the troll. Seemed to me that he was fishing for more drama and said as much, thinking that "get a life" is an appropriate response. Honestly, I can't see how that is particularly insulting.

Also, if he has no idea of why I won't engage in this discussion, I can't help him.

Try greeting people for one week with the phrase "Get a life"

As I say the claim was new, left field AND even topically relevant. Hardly drama. A "no idea" or "not really wanting to talk about it" would have put it to the sword without the drama that you have now created (presuming you were genuine in not wanting to either insult or start drama).
Me? I was curious (and am not the only one) and simply asked the question.

Fair enough, but surely you can see where I'm coming from. Honestly, Al, I don't think we have the kind of relationship where my first thought when asked that question in the middle of a flame war is "it's an honest question, no harm intended". If you think this is overly negative, then I'm glad to hear it.

I can't see where you are coming from. I rarely can these days.

But what was curiosity and mild interest was hardly worth this investment in things. I suspect there was more than a little bit of truth in the original claim. I think it rubbed you up the wrong way.

That all said, I don't much care.

As for you insulting me, I don't much care there either. I insulted you back and you made it clear there was miscommunication or misunderstanding....whatever, all good. shit happens.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 12:29:51 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Jack

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #208 on: October 16, 2017, 04:46:04 PM »
Jack-have you seen it from both sides? Have you ever had to stab somebody or stamp on somebody's face repeatedly just for the 'privilege' of sitting in your own cell to get some peace and quiet rather than going to the central communal mess-hall to consume your food, and to avoid having that food contaminated or outright stolen from you after a beating? Is this something you would condone as part of a judicial sentence?
No. Have no criminal history, though had a friend who did years ago. She said everyone has to sidle up to a group in prison; she chose the born-again Christians. She also lost a lot of weight, but she said that's because the food is crap.

Offline Jack

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #209 on: October 16, 2017, 05:06:29 PM »
It's a me at my own personal limit thing.
That's fair enough. Had actually given up on it until it was brought up again.