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Author Topic: The Tragedy in Las Vegas  (Read 11083 times)

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Offline Arya Quinn

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2017, 06:30:35 AM »
See the Right know the Left will not stop until the Second Amendment is in tatters and they do not trust that the Left will compromise and let it go at that. They feel IF they give away or make concessions, it will never stop. They will be feeding a starving beast that will never be sated.

There are those on the Right who are dyed in the wool gun nuts too, but I think there are enough people that if not "forced" to take a hard side would actually say "Yeah, we could probably stop selling guns that can (or can be modified to) shoot x number of rounds a second" or whatever. I think that there is enough middle ground for compromise. But when the Left smears the Right and talks down to them and tries to ride roughshod over them whilst threatening to diminish the constitution, the Right becomes dug in and both sides are polarised. Nothing gets done because there is no points of commonality between "You all are monsters who love dead kids" and "Come try and take my guns in person".

Hence why I didn't say Leftists were pushing for restrictions but "sane people", the left has just as many loonies as the right and I've actually talked to some people who consider themselves pro-guns who would be alright with some restrictions. I'm on the left (Jeremy Corbyn fan) and although I'm not the sanest person even I recognise that banning the guns is a fucking terrible idea.

I said "gun nuts and NRA fuckwits" rather than just referring to gun owners in general, although I can see why someone might think when I use those terms it's a sweeping statement on gun owners in general. It's not, I know some gun owners who are decent folks and like I said would be alright with some decent restrictions.

However, I still don't think there will be any budging when it comes to this issue.  :dunno:
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:33:17 AM by Some_Bloke »

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #91 on: October 06, 2017, 06:44:10 AM »
See the Right know the Left will not stop until the Second Amendment is in tatters and they do not trust that the Left will compromise and let it go at that. They feel IF they give away or make concessions, it will never stop. They will be feeding a starving beast that will never be sated.

There are those on the Right who are dyed in the wool gun nuts too, but I think there are enough people that if not "forced" to take a hard side would actually say "Yeah, we could probably stop selling guns that can (or can be modified to) shoot x number of rounds a second" or whatever. I think that there is enough middle ground for compromise. But when the Left smears the Right and talks down to them and tries to ride roughshod over them whilst threatening to diminish the constitution, the Right becomes dug in and both sides are polarised. Nothing gets done because there is no points of commonality between "You all are monsters who love dead kids" and "Come try and take my guns in person".

Hence why I didn't say Leftists were pushing for restrictions but "sane people", the left has just as many loonies as the right and I've actually talked to some people who consider themselves pro-guns who would be alright with some restrictions. I'm on the left (Jeremy Corbyn fan) and although I'm not the sanest person even I recognise that banning the guns is a fucking terrible idea.

I said "gun nuts and NRA fuckwits" rather than just referring to gun owners in general, although I can see why someone might think when I use those terms it's a sweeping statement on gun owners in general. It's not, I know some gun owners who are decent folks and like I said would be alright with some decent restrictions.

However, I still don't think there will be any budging when it comes to this issue.  :dunno:

Yeah, that is fair enough too.

I think the idea of having a gun for protection if someone comes to attack you in your home, in principle is not a terrible idea. BUT I see no reason you would need to be able to empty 200 rounds into them in one minute. Some with hunting. Having a rifle high powered enough to take down a large animal and to be able to let off a half a dozen rounds before they get away seems to make sense but filling the creature with 50 rounds seems excessive.

So I think there is a middle ground. There could be some reaching across the aisle but people get emotional and dig their heels in and the ones who are "sane" drift over to the cemented positions.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

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Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

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Offline Arya Quinn

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2017, 06:56:09 AM »
See the Right know the Left will not stop until the Second Amendment is in tatters and they do not trust that the Left will compromise and let it go at that. They feel IF they give away or make concessions, it will never stop. They will be feeding a starving beast that will never be sated.

There are those on the Right who are dyed in the wool gun nuts too, but I think there are enough people that if not "forced" to take a hard side would actually say "Yeah, we could probably stop selling guns that can (or can be modified to) shoot x number of rounds a second" or whatever. I think that there is enough middle ground for compromise. But when the Left smears the Right and talks down to them and tries to ride roughshod over them whilst threatening to diminish the constitution, the Right becomes dug in and both sides are polarised. Nothing gets done because there is no points of commonality between "You all are monsters who love dead kids" and "Come try and take my guns in person".

Hence why I didn't say Leftists were pushing for restrictions but "sane people", the left has just as many loonies as the right and I've actually talked to some people who consider themselves pro-guns who would be alright with some restrictions. I'm on the left (Jeremy Corbyn fan) and although I'm not the sanest person even I recognise that banning the guns is a fucking terrible idea.

I said "gun nuts and NRA fuckwits" rather than just referring to gun owners in general, although I can see why someone might think when I use those terms it's a sweeping statement on gun owners in general. It's not, I know some gun owners who are decent folks and like I said would be alright with some decent restrictions.

However, I still don't think there will be any budging when it comes to this issue.  :dunno:

Yeah, that is fair enough too.

I think the idea of having a gun for protection if someone comes to attack you in your home, in principle is not a terrible idea. BUT I see no reason you would need to be able to empty 200 rounds into them in one minute. Some with hunting. Having a rifle high powered enough to take down a large animal and to be able to let off a half a dozen rounds before they get away seems to make sense but filling the creature with 50 rounds seems excessive.

So I think there is a middle ground. There could be some reaching across the aisle but people get emotional and dig their heels in and the ones who are "sane" drift over to the cemented positions.

Fuckin', hell, I get emotional over this and it's not even my country. After Sandy Hook, I sort of became numb to mass shootings and the like, there'd be reports of one on TV and I'd shrug and say "Another one? For fuck's sake."

Same with terrorist attacks. Manchester was the last one in the UK to get to me, and before that it was the one in March but then again I was in London the day it happened. Whenever children get killed in some war or in an attack by fuckwits due to religious or other cuntish reasons I tend to lose my shit.  :dunno:

The Florida one struck a cord with me for obvious reasons, being a big gay poofter and all but that's a whole other topic.

Offline Fun With Matches

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #93 on: October 06, 2017, 07:27:37 AM »
The problem I see, is that anything like this happens and what does the Left do....pretty much to a person?:

1. They accuse the Right of being unfeeling monsters
2. They make sweeping statements of needing to take away all guns
3. They climb onto intellectual soapboxes and moral high horses to preach their superiority
4. They push to railroad and steamroll the Right

The Right in return:

1. They shut down ALL discussion on gun control or restriction
2. Phrases like "Out of my cold dead hands" creeps into the discourse
3. They dismiss ALL Liberal arguments
4. They push back against any efforts to railroad them or steamroll them.

What is the end result?

See the Right know the Left will not stop until the Second Amendment is in tatters and they do not trust that the Left will compromise and let it go at that. They feel IF they give away or make concessions, it will never stop. They will be feeding a starving beast that will never be sated.

There are those on the Right who are dyed in the wool gun nuts too, but I think there are enough people that if not "forced" to take a hard side would actually say "Yeah, we could probably stop selling guns that can (or can be modified to) shoot x number of rounds a second" or whatever. I think that there is enough middle ground for compromise. But when the Left smears the Right and talks down to them and tries to ride roughshod over them whilst threatening to diminish the constitution, the Right becomes dug in and both sides are polarised. Nothing gets done because there is no points of commonality between "You all are monsters who love dead kids" and "Come try and take my guns in person".

I agree with this.
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Offline El

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #94 on: October 06, 2017, 07:38:29 AM »
By the way, if anyone with whom there seems to be a snowball's chance in hell of actually having a dialogue with wants to know how I feel about the specifics of all this, feel free to ask.  I feel right now like it'd be wasted time and effort to get into.  I'm not looking to outlaw all guns- I was fucking literally making plans to go shooting with a couple of friends a week ago as of today (and yes, I have my FID). 

However (and the following paragraphs are the very broad version), I see no goddamn reason that we shouldn't have more restrictions on gun ownership (my state had a decent set of common sense restrictions, anyway).  That wouldn't have stopped this guy, but maybe it'll stop the next one.  I also see no goddamn good reason (as stated by other people here) for people to have access to the level of sophistication and deadliness in weaponry that gun nuts (not sane gun owners, but the actual nuts) seem to want.  Before the shooting, we were going to consider making silencers legal, ffs.  Why the actual fuck do we need those, exactly?  And silencers WOULD have made this last shooting a hell of a lot worse.

I absolutely think toxic masculinity plays a role in a lot of these shootings, and I woudln't be surprised if it played a role in that one.  Don't believe me, look at the fucking gender breakdown of who commits mass shootings.  Something's up there- and I do think part of it is also part of the cancer that's fucking my country all up for everyone who isn't a rich white man.

I also think the NRA flooding politics and culture with dirty money plays a huge role.  Libertarians like to say follow the money (and I think that's valid and wise in general).  The NRA fucking profits off of these mass shootings, because the debate about gun laws comes up, people panic, and stockpile more guns.  They have too many politicians in their pockets, and they literally profit from murder.  I defy anyone to come up with a reason that THAT isn't a problem.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #95 on: October 06, 2017, 07:57:15 AM »
By the way, if anyone with whom there seems to be a snowball's chance in hell of actually having a dialogue with wants to know how I feel about the specifics of all this, feel free to ask.  I feel right now like it'd be wasted time and effort to get into.  I'm not looking to outlaw all guns- I was fucking literally making plans to go shooting with a couple of friends a week ago as of today (and yes, I have my FID). 

However (and the following paragraphs are the very broad version), I see no goddamn reason that we shouldn't have more restrictions on gun ownership (my state had a decent set of common sense restrictions, anyway).  That wouldn't have stopped this guy, but maybe it'll stop the next one.  I also see no goddamn good reason (as stated by other people here) for people to have access to the level of sophistication and deadliness in weaponry that gun nuts (not sane gun owners, but the actual nuts) seem to want.  Before the shooting, we were going to consider making silencers legal, ffs.  Why the actual fuck do we need those, exactly?  And silencers WOULD have made this last shooting a hell of a lot worse.

I absolutely think toxic masculinity plays a role in a lot of these shootings, and I woudln't be surprised if it played a role in that one.  Don't believe me, look at the fucking gender breakdown of who commits mass shootings.  Something's up there- and I do think part of it is also part of the cancer that's fucking my country all up for everyone who isn't a rich white man.

I also think the NRA flooding politics and culture with dirty money plays a huge role.  Libertarians like to say follow the money (and I think that's valid and wise in general).  The NRA fucking profits off of these mass shootings, because the debate about gun laws comes up, people panic, and stockpile more guns.  They have too many politicians in their pockets, and they literally profit from murder.  I defy anyone to come up with a reason that THAT isn't a problem.

What is the reduction in noise of a silencer? Do you know? Do you know whether or not it would not still have sounded like firecrackers going off? Do silencers make a possible ear damaging noise out of ear-damaging range BUT still very loud range? Apparently, this is the case and so the knock-on effect is that it would have likely made not a single difference despite being claimed unequivocably by Hillary Clinton.

Why exactly is toxic masculinity? How does it differ from toxic feminity? How does a male become toxic or are they all born toxic? Is it like original sin? You seemed to suggest previously that men who were Christian and Evangelical Christians (oh and white) meant that they were masculine then ascribed them loving guns, God and the country as meaning they hated women and were racist. So I guess THAT is toxic masculinity and stems from them being Christian and white men? I am sure you can spell this all out, you are the one with a degree in applicable social sciences. You must know the human condition and what makes people tick...right? You are the one with these answers.

The NRA will absolutely benefit when gun sales are made. Now are you suggesting that they sponsored Stephen Paddock? You aren't are you? As for dirty money in politics. It is absolutely true that the NRA will have more support for the GOP who has more support in them. NRA paid about $6 million to the GOP last year. Similarly, Planned Parenting for similar reasons has more support with the Democrats and they paid $38 million to the DNC. But what exactly is the point?

Hell, that argument is like saying that shrinks will do a piss poor job in deliberately reading people so that the person is never truly much better and always dependent. That they will do a job just good enough to get an appointment the next week but bad enough that they are never cured or removed from their illness or condition. Creating a dependence to make them money.

I think such conspiracy theory arguments are usually stupid. Not all though.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2017, 08:01:33 AM »
58 dead, 500 hurt. The rest of the world has connected the dots, when will the US?

You don't speak on behalf of the rest of the world.   :finger:

Dear Kek,

odeon is speaking for us.

Regards
the Rest of the World.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #97 on: October 06, 2017, 08:04:04 AM »
58 dead, 500 hurt. The rest of the world has connected the dots, when will the US?

You don't speak on behalf of the rest of the world.   :finger:

Dear Kek,

odeon is speaking for us.

Regards
the Rest of the World.

No Odeon is speaking for Odeon and You agree with Odeon. Only an idiot would imply that is the same as Odeon speaking for the rest of the world.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #98 on: October 06, 2017, 08:11:22 AM »
You're completely correct Al.  odeon doesn't speak for North Korea or certain parts of Syria and Somalia, but he does speak for the majorities in most countries of the world.
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2017, 08:13:06 AM »
Can someone point me towards a report of a mass shooting that has been stopped by privately owned assault rifles in the hands of a "citizen"?

I'm asking for a friend.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2017, 08:37:33 AM »
You're completely correct Al.  odeon doesn't speak for North Korea or certain parts of Syria and Somalia, but he does speak for the majorities in most countries of the world.

No, he really does not. Neither do you and only a moron would imagine that there is a shared consciousness between Odeon and the people of the world as a whole. Flattering in a really greasy brown-nosing way and all, FourAce but simply not true.

People throughout the world will have a variety of opinions about a variety of things. There is not an "Odeon's thoughts and North Korea". That is what we call, batshit crazy.

Even if we look at the gun debate in isolation, you will see in this thread varying degrees of agreement and disagreement. You will likely find that when you times these interactions over billions of people, the variety and diversity of opinion will be vast.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Queen Victoria

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #101 on: October 06, 2017, 08:56:45 AM »
This appeared in the Times-Picayune today.  Thoughtful.

American can-do vanishes when the NRA check arrives | Opinion           By Robert Mann, Columnist

The instinct is common; the pattern is clear: When people die in accidents or from defective or faulty products, Americans are quick to assess the problem and work to prevent it from happening again. For instance:

Whenever a commercial airliner crashes and kills hundreds of people, we determine the cause and work to prevent similar occurrences. That's why airlines are the world's safest mode of travel.

On American highways, cars often cross medians and strike oncoming traffic. That's why many states, including Louisiana, erect barriers to prevent future crashes.

After decades during which more than 40,000 -- sometimes 50,000 -- people died annually on our highways, federal law in 1968 required automakers to install seat belts in new cars. By 1998, the government also mandated airbags in all new automobiles.

When someone tainted bottles of Tylenol with potassium cyanide in 1981, killing seven people in the Chicago area, it sparked a revolution in the packaging of over-the-counter medication and resulted in the 1983 Federal Anti-Tampering Act.

Following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the federal government dramatically increased security at airports and on airplanes.

A would-be shoe bomber tried to blow up a plane on a flight from Paris to Miami in 2001. Today, most U.S. passengers cannot board a commercial jet without removing their shoes.

After 32 infants died in drop-down cribs from 2000 to 2010, the federal Consumer Products Safety Commission (CPSC) banned the manufacture, sale and resale of such cribs.

In the 1980s, more than 6,000 people were injured in lawn dart accidents. In 1982, an errant dart killed a 7-year-old child in California. By 1988, the CPSC banned them in the United States.

Thousands of children once opened medicine bottles and died or became ill after they ingested the contents. Today, child-resistant caps are used for almost all medicine bottles and many other products, such as pesticides and other household chemicals.

Several dozen people, including children, died each year after being locked inside the trunks of cars. In 2001, the federal government required that all new passenger vehicles with trunks must be equipped with an interior release latch.

After scientists proved that second-hand cigarette smoke causes a range of health problems, the tobacco companies fought efforts to ban smoking in offices and restaurants. In spite of Big Tobacco's lobbying against it, many states and hundreds of cities have banned smoking in public places.

If it's a car accident, plane crash, deadly drug interaction, animal attack or botched hurricane recovery, we summon our outrage, muster our courage and dive into doing whatever it takes to eliminate or reduce the threat.
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2017, 09:06:09 AM »
You're completely correct Al.  odeon doesn't speak for North Korea or certain parts of Syria and Somalia, but he does speak for the majorities in most countries of the world.

No, he really does not. Neither do you and only a moron would imagine that there is a shared consciousness between Odeon and the people of the world as a whole. Flattering in a really greasy brown-nosing way and all, FourAce but simply not true.

People throughout the world will have a variety of opinions about a variety of things. There is not an "Odeon's thoughts and North Korea". That is what we call, batshit crazy.

Even if we look at the gun debate in isolation, you will see in this thread varying degrees of agreement and disagreement. You will likely find that when you times these interactions over billions of people, the variety and diversity of opinion will be vast.

Eventually the mass of evidence and proof renders an opinion a matter of fact.  You're just behind the fucking curve.

There are people who think that their invisible friend made the earth 8000 years ago.  That's not an opinion.  They are simply incorrect.  And funnily enough they are also a subgroup of the gun lobby.  Go figure.

You need cold hard facts to justify an opinion.
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2017, 09:06:56 AM »
Please post those NRA sourced "statistics.  I find them so hilarious.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: The Tragedy in Las Vegas
« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2017, 09:30:16 AM »
You're completely correct Al.  odeon doesn't speak for North Korea or certain parts of Syria and Somalia, but he does speak for the majorities in most countries of the world.

No, he really does not. Neither do you and only a moron would imagine that there is a shared consciousness between Odeon and the people of the world as a whole. Flattering in a really greasy brown-nosing way and all, FourAce but simply not true.

People throughout the world will have a variety of opinions about a variety of things. There is not an "Odeon's thoughts and North Korea". That is what we call, batshit crazy.

Even if we look at the gun debate in isolation, you will see in this thread varying degrees of agreement and disagreement. You will likely find that when you times these interactions over billions of people, the variety and diversity of opinion will be vast.

Eventually the mass of evidence and proof renders an opinion a matter of fact.  You're just behind the fucking curve.

There are people who think that their invisible friend made the earth 8000 years ago.  That's not an opinion.  They are simply incorrect.  And funnily enough they are also a subgroup of the gun lobby.  Go figure.

You need cold hard facts to justify an opinion.

Mass of evidence at this point seems to be that the world thinks the same thoughts as Odeon except for Almighty Kek (and perhaps North Korea, Syria, Somalia and maybe America?) of which you cite NO evidence.

Odeon thinks Odeon's thoughts in Odeon's head. Without looking at the merits of any individual thought and what nuances he has on such thoughts, it is difficult without certainty to say whether ANYONE thinks EXACTLY the same thing as he does and to the same degree and for the same reasons and in the same way and with all the same nuance and from the same experience and so on. Likely not.

The fact that you imagine that his thoughts, in general, would be the same as the rest of the world is....well, it is kind of special.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap