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Author Topic: What are You watching?  (Read 72971 times)

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Offline Natalia Evans

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1095 on: November 27, 2008, 04:54:57 PM »
Goldeneye

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1096 on: November 27, 2008, 05:25:01 PM »
If you cut at 120Hz, I bet they'll change. IMHO, no more than 85Hz, and according to Dolby (and me, I think that's a bit low) no more than 55Hz.

but maybe I'm reading you wrong--your baffle construction would be of interest. I would love to bring a couple of CDs and an LP or two, to see what your setup is about.

The idea is to avoid using any electronics or even crossovers in the largest part of the audio band at the speaker level. As an analog system, everything you add to the signal path (even the direction, length and type of cabling used) makes a number of differences, some desired, some NOT. A crossover is a nightmare, because they alter the phase of the signal differently at different frequencies. Attaining the highest resolution in reproduction is only possible with the simplest possible system. A high quality analog source, a simple SET tube amp (mine has only eight solder joints in the signal path), a single driver for the entire audio spectrum would be ideal, but room-filling full range drivers are still a problem. They do not exist, so compromises are made.
 
I have actually used about four hundred dollars worth of copper wire, winding coils for this set up. I have several pairs of coils that I have tried. As you know, outside of enormous electrostatic systems which are incredibly inefficient, there is no such thing as a full range driver. One of my original goals was to build a single driver, point source speaker system, two for stereo, obviously. After trying several horn designs, some of them published on the internet, which I copied or bought plans for, (Ron's Horns (which, google) are excellent, BTW), I decided that the free breathing, open back designs were the only types of designs which were capable of the clarity I was looking for.

I have used Fostex, Tang Band, Lowther, JBL, Electro Voice coaxial, Altec coaxial and Visaton drivers, all of which are mostly considered the best of the best for this approach. The efficiency of the Altec drivers is hard to beat, but they are not smooth in response above two thousand Hertz and the low frequency drivers are extremely low Q. Same story for the EV. The Fostex are probably second best, very efficient, ultra flat, but not much on the low end, so my low frequency drivers would have to be crossed over at a higher frequency, and the Fostex drivers do not take much power and have relatively short excursion. They belong in horns.

The Visaton B200 (eight inch full range) are the single best, flattest, adequately efficient, extremely musical drivers I have yet to hear, even better than the Lowthers which cost three times as much. Unfortunately they also roll off (though gradually, smoothly, predictably at six dB per octave) at about one hundred Hertz, in open air.

So my goal, with the present state of technology, is still unattainable. I can not have a single point source full range driver, without using a horn. If you know much about horns, you understand that they must be huge to work well. There are compromise, high compression horns which are reduced in size and are capable of fairly flat response, but at the high cost of loss of waveform linearity. It is impossible to balance the degree of compression, evenly across the audio spectrum on opposing sides of the driver.

I have also tried other approaches. The most successful was an open baffle design where the driver sits above a Hemholtz chamber to enhance low frequency response. The resonator was fed merely by a slot exposed to the extreme pressure directly at the edge of the driver, kind of like blowing across a bottle top. While this could NEVER be accepted in the open air camp, being just another compromise, it still allowed the driver to operate, "unrestrictedly,"  in open air. I still have one of these in my garage, but I honestly have not put power to it in about five years. I would call that project back-burnered, but I have not completely given up the concept.

I have given up on horns, BTW, at least until I have enough space to do it RIGHT.

The most musical compromise that I have yet heard is to use a pair of large drivers to re-enforce the low frequencies, with a simple coil to roll them off near the frequency the "full rangers"  peter out. Fortunately, the ability of human hearing to recognise phase differences is largely to do with a difference in percentage of the waveform for each frequency along with the distance from the sound source. In other words, at high frequencies which have very small wavelengths, a very slight physical offset between two drivers reproducing the same frequency simultaneously is audible and disturbing. At the lowest frequencies, which have long wavelengths the physical offset between drivers can be several inches at one hundred hertz before it becomes audible to us deaf creatures. So, using a secondary system to enhance low frequencies, closely positioned to the full range driver, is not as nasty of a compromise as a high compression horn would be and miles ahead of using a complex, steep cut-off crossover network.

BTW I also have used a single JBL driver, extremely efficient, very flat, amazing high frequency response for a fifteen inch driver, but unfortunately, quite directional above about one thousand Hertz and a tweeter would still be necessary (using a simple capacitor for a crossover). This means that the sweet spot will be even smaller. Not good.

Also, if I had not specified, this is not my surround system. This is my two channel stereo I am talking about. As far as Dolby's recommendations, I assume you are referring to movie soundtrack reproduction. I am still using a 5.1 system for movies. If you were talking about crossing over the LFE channel at a certain frequency, I have balanced mine with my fronts using an external EQ, pink noise and an RTA. I think the crossover setting on my LFE channel (which itself is bi-amped and equalised, quite complicated) is around sixty something Hertz. That entire system is so electronic that I could hardly call it a hi-res system. It's awesome for movie soundtracks, though!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 07:06:55 PM by DirtDawg »
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The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline Callaway

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1097 on: November 27, 2008, 07:20:35 PM »
House

Ditto. There has been a House marathon on TV all day here.

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1098 on: November 27, 2008, 08:07:50 PM »
We've been playing kid movies all day.

I've seen bits of a couple of House episodes. It looks interesting, but I could not play it around the kids.
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline odeon

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1099 on: November 28, 2008, 06:33:54 AM »
The idea is to avoid using any electronics or even crossovers in the largest part of the audio band at the speaker level. As an analog system, everything you add to the signal path (even the direction, length and type of cabling used) makes a number of differences, some desired, some NOT. A crossover is a nightmare, because they alter the phase of the signal differently at different frequencies. Attaining the highest resolution in reproduction is only possible with the simplest possible system. A high quality analog source, a simple SET tube amp (mine has only eight solder joints in the signal path), a single driver for the entire audio spectrum would be ideal, but room-filling full range drivers are still a problem. They do not exist, so compromises are made.

There are some JBL drivers that almost do this, but not quite.

And yes, I agree with you that crossovers are a nightmare.

Quote
Also, if I had not specified, this is not my surround system. This is my two channel stereo I am talking about. As far as Dolby's recommendations, I assume you are referring to movie soundtrack reproduction. I am still using a 5.1 system for movies. If you were talking about crossing over the LFE channel at a certain frequency, I have balanced mine with my fronts using an external EQ, pink noise and an RTA. I think the crossover setting on my LFE channel (which itself is bi-amped and equalised, quite complicated) is around sixty something Hertz. That entire system is so electronic that I could hardly call it a hi-res system. It's awesome for movie soundtracks, though!

I realise that it isn't your surround setup, but I only have one setup at home so it's a compromise between two different philosophies.

The Dolby way (and yes, I tend to think of movie soundtrack reproduction; bad habit, I know) works very well when you run AC-3-encoded sound (i.e., Dolby Digital) in a theatre, but 55Hz is far too low for a home setup, IMO. Most living rooms lack the necessary space, not to mention that you can't build a proper baffle for the front speakers. My crossover is around 85, which seems to be a reasonable compromise between 5.1 and 2 (.1) for my Dali speakers.
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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1100 on: November 28, 2008, 09:43:21 AM »
We've been playing kid movies all day.

I've seen bits of a couple of House episodes. It looks interesting, but I could not play it around the kids.

My daughter was doing other stuff for most of yesterday, but she is watching Hannah Montana on On Demand TV today.

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1101 on: November 28, 2008, 09:47:06 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT0p3gEf5l4

It's interesting that people in eastern and southern Europe appreciate their own culture 1000 times more than most jerks in western and northern Europe.

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1102 on: November 29, 2008, 09:59:28 AM »
The idea is to avoid using any electronics or even crossovers in the largest part of the audio band at the speaker level. As an analog system, everything you add to the signal path (even the direction, length and type of cabling used) makes a number of differences, some desired, some NOT. A crossover is a nightmare, because they alter the phase of the signal differently at different frequencies. Attaining the highest resolution in reproduction is only possible with the simplest possible system. A high quality analog source, a simple SET tube amp (mine has only eight solder joints in the signal path), a single driver for the entire audio spectrum would be ideal, but room-filling full range drivers are still a problem. They do not exist, so compromises are made.

There are some JBL drivers that almost do this, but not quite.

And yes, I agree with you that crossovers are a nightmare.


I have some ten inch JBL "full range"  drivers, but they are designed for high output. Using under one watt (which is likely to happen at the listening level I normally enjoy. The JBLs are extremely efficient. One watt produces ninety eight dB from sixty Hertz to twelve kH at one meter.) they do not have the sound I need. I built a D' Apollito arrangement with one bullet horn in the middle ( using one simple capacitor in series with the bullet, 6dB per octave roll off) between two tens. They are amazing outside, especially with about forty watts on them, even though they can take over four hundred watts in the box I built for them.
They are just not for home use.


Also, if I had not specified, this is not my surround system. This is my two channel stereo I am talking about. As far as Dolby's recommendations, I assume you are referring to movie soundtrack reproduction. I am still using a 5.1 system for movies. If you were talking about crossing over the LFE channel at a certain frequency, I have balanced mine with my fronts using an external EQ, pink noise and an RTA. I think the crossover setting on my LFE channel (which itself is bi-amped and equalised, quite complicated) is around sixty something Hertz. That entire system is so electronic that I could hardly call it a hi-res system. It's awesome for movie soundtracks, though!
I realise that it isn't your surround setup, but I only have one setup at home so it's a compromise between two different philosophies.

The Dolby way (and yes, I tend to think of movie soundtrack reproduction; bad habit, I know) works very well when you run AC-3-encoded sound (i.e., Dolby Digital) in a theatre, but 55Hz is far too low for a home setup, IMO. Most living rooms lack the necessary space, not to mention that you can't build a proper baffle for the front speakers. My crossover is around 85, which seems to be a reasonable compromise between 5.1 and 2 (.1) for my Dali speakers.


My living room is actually not bad. I also have a sloped cathedral style ceiling (eight feet on one side, rising to twelve feet on the other) which helps to control certain standing waves. At fifteen feet by twenty two feet, I have enough room in the corner for a serious LF system (bi-amplified, with four fifteen inch drivers below thirty Hertz powered by an eight hundred watt amplifier and two fifteens for the next octave up with two hundred watts on them). No, you can't really hear it - you feel it!
Most of my "friends" do not understand what I am doing. They are happy with their little cubical, commercial home theatre "subwoofer" units, only capable of fairly loud thirty Hertz range noise. (sorry, but thirty Hertz is NOT sub-audible - I'm an asshole about this stuff! They don't have subwoofers on their HT set-ups!)

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 10:01:54 AM by DirtDawg »
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline WolFish

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1103 on: November 29, 2008, 10:19:11 AM »
cpu usage and physical memory, to compare vlc usage to winamp (winamp 5 sucks >:()

vlc player takes up a lot of space, even just playing music! i might need to get a different ogm player...
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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1104 on: November 29, 2008, 03:49:05 PM »
The idea is to avoid using any electronics or even crossovers in the largest part of the audio band at the speaker level. As an analog system, everything you add to the signal path (even the direction, length and type of cabling used) makes a number of differences, some desired, some NOT. A crossover is a nightmare, because they alter the phase of the signal differently at different frequencies. Attaining the highest resolution in reproduction is only possible with the simplest possible system. A high quality analog source, a simple SET tube amp (mine has only eight solder joints in the signal path), a single driver for the entire audio spectrum would be ideal, but room-filling full range drivers are still a problem. They do not exist, so compromises are made.

There are some JBL drivers that almost do this, but not quite.

And yes, I agree with you that crossovers are a nightmare.


I have some ten inch JBL "full range"  drivers, but they are designed for high output. Using under one watt (which is likely to happen at the listening level I normally enjoy. The JBLs are extremely efficient. One watt produces ninety eight dB from sixty Hertz to twelve kH at one meter.) they do not have the sound I need. I built a D' Apollito arrangement with one bullet horn in the middle ( using one simple capacitor in series with the bullet, 6dB per octave roll off) between two tens. They are amazing outside, especially with about forty watts on them, even though they can take over four hundred watts in the box I built for them.
They are just not for home use.

98dB at 12kHz sounds like an ordeal. How's the linearity, especially around 3-4kHz (where my ears always catch the slightest problem)? TBH, I'd prefer a crossover to ensure that the speakers won't have to compromise around there.

I like JBL speakers but I've never come across any good ones for home use.

Quote
Also, if I had not specified, this is not my surround system. This is my two channel stereo I am talking about. As far as Dolby's recommendations, I assume you are referring to movie soundtrack reproduction. I am still using a 5.1 system for movies. If you were talking about crossing over the LFE channel at a certain frequency, I have balanced mine with my fronts using an external EQ, pink noise and an RTA. I think the crossover setting on my LFE channel (which itself is bi-amped and equalised, quite complicated) is around sixty something Hertz. That entire system is so electronic that I could hardly call it a hi-res system. It's awesome for movie soundtracks, though!
I realise that it isn't your surround setup, but I only have one setup at home so it's a compromise between two different philosophies.

The Dolby way (and yes, I tend to think of movie soundtrack reproduction; bad habit, I know) works very well when you run AC-3-encoded sound (i.e., Dolby Digital) in a theatre, but 55Hz is far too low for a home setup, IMO. Most living rooms lack the necessary space, not to mention that you can't build a proper baffle for the front speakers. My crossover is around 85, which seems to be a reasonable compromise between 5.1 and 2 (.1) for my Dali speakers.


My living room is actually not bad. I also have a sloped cathedral style ceiling (eight feet on one side, rising to twelve feet on the other) which helps to control certain standing waves. At fifteen feet by twenty two feet, I have enough room in the corner for a serious LF system (bi-amplified, with four fifteen inch drivers below thirty Hertz powered by an eight hundred watt amplifier and two fifteens for the next octave up with two hundred watts on them). No, you can't really hear it - you feel it!
Most of my "friends" do not understand what I am doing. They are happy with their little cubical, commercial home theatre "subwoofer" units, only capable of fairly loud thirty Hertz range noise. (sorry, but thirty Hertz is NOT sub-audible - I'm an asshole about this stuff! They don't have subwoofers on their HT set-ups!)

What's your LF thing doing in the corner? Don't you get problems with standing waves or plain old interference with the rest of the setup?

I still don't own a good subwoofer--it's my 5.1 system's weakest link. I want the Dali sub that goes with my speakers but I can't afford it atm.
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Offline Natalia Evans

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1105 on: November 29, 2008, 04:53:46 PM »
Call Me Claus

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1106 on: November 29, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »
CSI
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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1107 on: November 30, 2008, 01:18:13 AM »
cpu usage and physical memory, to compare vlc usage to winamp (winamp 5 sucks >:()

vlc player takes up a lot of space, even just playing music! i might need to get a different ogm player...

Do you like have no RAM or something?

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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1108 on: November 30, 2008, 04:14:23 PM »
Sopranos, still.
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Re: What are You watching?
« Reply #1109 on: November 30, 2008, 06:17:25 PM »
The idea is to avoid using any electronics or even crossovers in the largest part of the audio band at the speaker level. As an analog system, everything you add to the signal path (even the direction, length and type of cabling used) makes a number of differences, some desired, some NOT. A crossover is a nightmare, because they alter the phase of the signal differently at different frequencies. Attaining the highest resolution in reproduction is only possible with the simplest possible system. A high quality analog source, a simple SET tube amp (mine has only eight solder joints in the signal path), a single driver for the entire audio spectrum would be ideal, but room-filling full range drivers are still a problem. They do not exist, so compromises are made.

There are some JBL drivers that almost do this, but not quite.

And yes, I agree with you that crossovers are a nightmare.


I have some ten inch JBL "full range"  drivers, but they are designed for high output. Using under one watt (which is likely to happen at the listening level I normally enjoy. The JBLs are extremely efficient. One watt produces ninety eight dB from sixty Hertz to twelve kH at one meter.) they do not have the sound I need. I built a D' Apollito arrangement with one bullet horn in the middle ( using one simple capacitor in series with the bullet, 6dB per octave roll off) between two tens. They are amazing outside, especially with about forty watts on them, even though they can take over four hundred watts in the box I built for them.
They are just not for home use.

98dB at 12kHz sounds like an ordeal. How's the linearity, especially around 3-4kHz (where my ears always catch the slightest problem)? TBH, I'd prefer a crossover to ensure that the speakers won't have to compromise around there.

I like JBL speakers but I've never come across any good ones for home use.

Quote
Also, if I had not specified, this is not my surround system. This is my two channel stereo I am talking about. As far as Dolby's recommendations, I assume you are referring to movie soundtrack reproduction. I am still using a 5.1 system for movies. If you were talking about crossing over the LFE channel at a certain frequency, I have balanced mine with my fronts using an external EQ, pink noise and an RTA. I think the crossover setting on my LFE channel (which itself is bi-amped and equalised, quite complicated) is around sixty something Hertz. That entire system is so electronic that I could hardly call it a hi-res system. It's awesome for movie soundtracks, though!
I realise that it isn't your surround setup, but I only have one setup at home so it's a compromise between two different philosophies.

The Dolby way (and yes, I tend to think of movie soundtrack reproduction; bad habit, I know) works very well when you run AC-3-encoded sound (i.e., Dolby Digital) in a theatre, but 55Hz is far too low for a home setup, IMO. Most living rooms lack the necessary space, not to mention that you can't build a proper baffle for the front speakers. My crossover is around 85, which seems to be a reasonable compromise between 5.1 and 2 (.1) for my Dali speakers.


My living room is actually not bad. I also have a sloped cathedral style ceiling (eight feet on one side, rising to twelve feet on the other) which helps to control certain standing waves. At fifteen feet by twenty two feet, I have enough room in the corner for a serious LF system (bi-amplified, with four fifteen inch drivers below thirty Hertz powered by an eight hundred watt amplifier and two fifteens for the next octave up with two hundred watts on them). No, you can't really hear it - you feel it!
Most of my "friends" do not understand what I am doing. They are happy with their little cubical, commercial home theatre "subwoofer" units, only capable of fairly loud thirty Hertz range noise. (sorry, but thirty Hertz is NOT sub-audible - I'm an asshole about this stuff! They don't have subwoofers on their HT set-ups!)

What's your LF thing doing in the corner? Don't you get problems with standing waves or plain old interference with the rest of the setup?

I still don't own a good subwoofer--it's my 5.1 system's weakest link. I want the Dali sub that goes with my speakers but I can't afford it atm.

Well, it starts in the corner and extends to the mid point of the short wall. Realise that my LFE system involves six, three hundred eighty millimeter drivers in two separate enclosures, a rack of equipment and nearly nine hundred litres of working air space within the enclosures. I also have a forty six Hertz columnar bass trap in that corner, since that happens to be the frequency with the longest reverberation time at my chair. Behind me are eighty three and thirty seven Hertz traps, though they are both proportionately much smaller. They have less energy to absorb.
I know bass traps are not exactly audio "green,"  but that is close to why I have preferred not to enclose a vibrating diaphragm since I first heard the difference. Why create, enclose and reflect frequencies you don't want in excess, anyway?

A fucking room of any shape, sixe or dimension is just another enclosed spaced to fight against the clarity of reproduction I pursue in my private listening. I accept the traps for my movie rig, but I have thoughtfully designed propagation diffusers for my hi-fi rig to address the issues of time and reflection. I have gone against some of the "reflection-free" theories and learned to use the early reflections against each other.
At this point, I need a patent lawyer, though. I can't seem to explain it in words sufficiently different from what others have done to patent my design.

As far as the JBL tens, once you have about four or five watts running through them (you are now well over one hundred dB!) the linearity is unmatched from the low hundred Hertz area to well over ten kHz. They roll off beyond that range. There is nothing out of sorts in the "sensitive" range of human hearing. They are pretty close to flat, but not so with about two hundred milliwatts, which is the power you would use in a normal listening room with these drivers. They are designed for pro-audio and do not suit home use.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 06:19:16 PM by DirtDawg »
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.