Educational

Author Topic: Les  (Read 2689 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2013, 05:53:48 PM »
Lol, well then I think you've kinda lost a point there, mate.

I can't really address that if you don't properly explain whatever it is you were getting at.

Really? OK here is what I think. I think I give you a definition and REGARDLESS of what definition you had in your mind and regardless if it matches or mostly matches what you were on about, you will then look at any definition that is as far removed from my definition as possible and bog this down to pointless semantics as you say "well see I did not think that and I actually thought "blah, blah, blah" I then show how you could not possibly have thought about "blah, blah, blah" because that blah, blah, blah" definition does not accord with the point you made on this post, that post or that post. Then you argue semantics on the spot and it bogs down further.....

No.

Fuck that. Lose a point? You kill me :P

Gotta go to work
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 06:04:39 AM »
Going to be offline for a bit at Calvrary hospital with ex and daughter. Daughter hit by car
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2013, 10:43:25 AM »
OK dude. Hope it's nothing serious

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2013, 12:59:31 PM »
Worried about her and still in hospital. Been with her all night. She is sleeping now.
I won't lie, I am pretty shattered. Can't contribute to debate today, overtired, under slept and fucking worried and stressed. I just hope my baby is ok.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2013, 01:01:57 PM »
No worries, some things just aren't important.

I hope she's ok and recovers asap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2013, 08:02:14 AM »
OK, let's keep going. I will get a lot of sleep when I am dead.

One thing with this which I think has been a little bit missed in the discourse. I have taken it on board to presume so things I say will be able to be contextualised on the basis of the debate. I may be wrong. Not the first time I have been wrong about things so I will breakdown things in a different way so you MAY be more able to see my argument (Not here saying that anyone here may be at fault for not understanding what I said, goes both ways. I may not have been as clear as i believed. unfortunately when I see people ignoring a point or questioning a point I think it them being deliberately obtuse)

The caveman thing has and seems to keep coming up.
My point in my analogy here are:
* Providing why "I" believe that there is difference in the social roles and how historically I can see a logical gravitation to those roles and obligations.
* Why I see the benefit in both and the associated obligation in both (whilst acknowledging the disadvantages in both)
* Why I see that he male disposability has a historical purpose and a place in the debate in terms of inferiority of gender
* Why I see it is not a good assumption to make when considering looking at the advantageous society of today and imprinting standards of treatment today as it does not meet objectives realities of today.
* The oppression of a people (by religious bullying, invasion, enslavement, no access to modern health care, technology, and so on) is not necessarily more onerous on the women. Neither is taking up "traditional roles" more onerous.
* Men taking on "tribal male role" in "caveman societies" were not taking on a position of privilege.
* Obligations bestowed on males have been traditionally ones tied explicitly and implicitly to benefit women (and children)

Now the reason I wanted to mention this back to the beginning of things is that it is VERY easy to make some assumptions base on opinions infused into our culture by virtue of feminism. I don't know what Adam or others believe or hold in the heart as truths or accepted normalcy. By getting back to explain what I see as cultural beginnings and the reason for roles being established and why they were necessary and beneficial to the whole society, and mutually beneficial trading off of obligations and rights, it shows a different approach to why men in society have had different roles to women.

It also does not say that this should remain. I do not think it should. I think my little girl ought (in today's society) to choose whether to marry or not, what position in society she ought to aspire to do, whether she has children or not, and also in knowing that she is supported by her Dad and Mum and by society.

It is bizarre to me that people should imprint today's cultural norms on another and say "Meh, that society is so sexist". The "Patriarchy" that Feminists has prattled on about over the last 50 years DOES creep into the cultural discourse. It filters and shades the way we all look at things.
It is mostly bullshit, mostly. Here is where the danger is the best kind of lie is one with a bit of truth in it.
"Men rape, therefore all men are potential rapists" very powerful message. Now we know that the subject matter is serious and not dismissible. We can of course say not ALL men. But even attacking this here, it doesn't get to what the message is doing to those viewing the message. It also says this very subtlety (the subtlety that unfortunately does sneak into Feminist propaganda to change culture) "Men rape, how can you REALLY pick out the man who rapes from the man that does not". Now we could throw up stats or whatever BUT it helps make a culture of women who are in fear of men and in fear of their own safety. Women are less of risk of violence statistically than men. Far more violences happens to men than women but men are statistically not nearly as fearful or violence perpetrated at them. But that is just one example off the top of my head.

Now Adam may say "But I am not a Feminist or even discussing that shit". What Adam is doing is not filtering a lot of generalisations made about men or about obligations or rights in a culture or society. (Specifically the societies that endorsed the outdated "obey" clause in marriage vows, Or that which obliged Fathers to "give away the bride, or differences in "modern day Iraq" - an Iraq which has been reverting back to 1950's values and which had probably hit a point in 1985 or thereabouts that it had a similar values in respect to women's rights and place in society as any Western culture) As a result basing discussing points which require a presupposition of a lot of premises which are NOT givens, is not going to work unless the premises even if wrong are enticing.

Worse still, I hope this has been shown by Adam's want to say "Well obviously more men will die" or such shows a weakness in making such dismissals. Why? Because it means we seriously HAVE to believe, IF we believe in the sexism in the roles that Adam has ASSUMED exists.

Men have cleverly assumed roles in society that place them at risk to die, and women wanted in. Men oblige themselves to option-less obligations which expose them to harm instead of women and women in this society wanted hat obligation. Men have chosen to oblige themselves to roles which all risk and financial burden and social shortfall of his whole family is his and his alone, and that this is not done by consent. Men will oblige themselves to defend their country instead of allowing their women and children to fight and the women who risk getting widowed are harder done by than the men being killed, or shellshocked or severely maimed - and women throughout the ages considered the fact they could not join in the fun not as good.

Falling short of these is perhaps, just perhaps, an acceptance that in society, until such time that women's life expectancy was increased due to "man"-made contraceptives and better child birthing healthcare, and a stable society and culture was in place, women simply were not in a position that they could have the opportunities that they did in the same way that Gronk the male Caveman could not have taken advantage of studying Rocket Science with a view to join the Space Program.

It does not say that there is not sexism in Iraq or in societies that developed giving daughter away at wedding cultures. Doesn't say that at all. It does not say that some men may not use the aspects of role in society to be sexist. It does not mean that I am stupid for not "getting" Adam. Nor does it mean that I myself am sexist for not openly embracing any Men are Sexist commentary I see, simply because someone said it, or because I am a man. Those that may think that this is so, need their heads read.
 
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2013, 08:36:26 AM »
How is this "Men are sexist" commentary?

Since when did I say all men are sexist?

I'm not sexist. Plenty of other guys I know are not sexist. I said the legal system in Iraq etc, the practice of "giving away" wives to their husbands etc, all THESE THINGS are sexist

If you interpret that as "all men are sexist" then that says more about your insecurity or chip on your shoulder.

Why is it bizarre to you that we would call it sexist?

Would it be bizarre for me to call racism racism, just becuase it's from a  different culture or time?

You say you do not think these old "traditional" ways should remain. Why is that? Could it possibly be because you see that it is inherently sexist and therefore wrong?

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2013, 10:32:45 AM »
How is this "Men are sexist" commentary?

Since when did I say all men are sexist?

I'm not sexist. Plenty of other guys I know are not sexist. I said the legal system in Iraq etc, the practice of "giving away" wives to their husbands etc, all THESE THINGS are sexist

If you interpret that as "all men are sexist" then that says more about your insecurity or chip on your shoulder.

Why is it bizarre to you that we would call it sexist?

Would it be bizarre for me to call racism racism, just becuase it's from a  different culture or time?

You say you do not think these old "traditional" ways should remain. Why is that? Could it possibly be because you see that it is inherently sexist and therefore wrong?

No it is not me having a chip on my shoulder.

Quite often people get a bit cagey with the word "sexism" which is part of the reason I did not want to define your definition to allow you similar scope to be cagey. It is good actually that you keep introducing things like 
Quote
Would it be bizarre for me to call racism racism, just becuase it's from a  different culture or time?

It allows us to see you are saying Racism is on par with sexism.
Again Bodie's definition she bolded - which may well have also included practices which were less negative than anti-woman sexism the same way as racism is anti-race.

I do not think that you think that all men are sexist. I believe that Feminism that informs our culture, is anti-male and not about gender equality. I think that because it informs our beliefs it MUST not lend us to make base assumptions it would have us make.

I have already said a few times why I do not think that these things were sexist in olden day times when giving away of daughters was the norm. I have also said why I think they would be sexist in today's society. You did see me write them, right?

If I write it again below you are not going to ask me again another few ages in are you?

My daughter lives in a culture that has access to modern technology and immunisations and brilliant healthcare.

(OK here is Butterflies' chance to say in the Peanut Gallery "Hurrrr derp he is going back in time again, Huurrr he does that all the time. He is shit at callouts and soooo stupid. That is why he embarassed me in his callout on me and mine on him ....Derp, derp, derp)

If she was born in say, 1600, she possibly would not gave survived childbirth - good chance. She may not have made it through childhood due to diseases that we now do not ever experience in first world countries. If she survived that then she was likely to experience a bad case of agonising death in trying to give burt to her own children. What is more, we have a welfare system in place and so given that and the high chance that our kids will all survive childhood and we have a system that will take care of us if we can't take care of ourselves, we have no need to have lots of kids. IF my daughter were to survive bearing a child she would repeat the process many times.
So as a female her chances of dying at birth, during childhood, giving birth with baby number 2-8? was pretty high.

Now given ALL of this, does it make more or less sense that she should have less children?  That her husband ought not be responsible for finances and keeping the family afloat and making decisions for the continuation of the family and to provide for the family?
Imagine being an employer back then.

Employer "Hello Miss. How can I help you?"
Miss: "I would like a job I am 15 now and would work ever so hard. I want to earn some money for myself as I am not obligated to spend it on anyone else. I wanted to buy something nice for myself before my wedding next year"
Employer: You are getting married?
Miss: "Indeed. I am really excited. I can't wait. I am planning to have lots of children too"
Employer thinking : "Great option here. She will possibly be with me at very best for a year and a half before being pregnant and then unable to do that particular work a few months later and then having a baby which she will very likely die of and if she doesn't she will be off work for a while and if she comes back, she will shortly be pregnant again and may die from that birthing again.....or I can hire young Jim who's Dad is here. Jim states he will put in a lot of hours because he is marrying and about to start a family and is obliged to provide for them. He said he will stay with us for life. Hard choice"
Employer: No Miss it is OK I did have a position but young Jim has got it.

Was he sexist or was he simply registering olden day social, medical, technological realities which do not exist here?

I am well aware I hammed this up too so please do not go there. I am making a point as to the different realities and why imprinting todays social norms over a society without recognising the differences there is fucking dishonest or ignorant at best.

Quote
You say you do not think these old "traditional" ways should remain. Why is that? Could it possibly be because you see that it is inherently sexist and therefore wrong?

No.

It does not say that a society may change due to better welfare, healthcare and life expectancy to allow for more option of the citizens of that culture and in being less restricted, then it may be unnecessary, illegal, bigoted, sexist or whatever to restrict them then. Being stymied because of the social factors I mentioned does NOT make your society sexist if you are not giving the bed solution afford because of your restrictions.

I am not sure where the difficulty is in appreciation that fact is?

Now could you say that Giving away your daughter in a wedding today is sexist then? Yes you can. Are you being sexist as a father if you do?

I don't think so.

"Wh...what????" Says Adam.  think that the custom is quaint. It is like a lot of the things associated with marriage, kind of outdated, irrelevant and quaint. Back in the olden days as a Dad, that would have been me thinking
"My baby is now going to be looked after by another man. I hope he will provide and protect her. I know that she will try to bear his children and may be dead in the next year. All I have done for her up to now, I hope this bloke is good for her and keeps her safe and happy."
Nowdays it wouldn't be that at all. It would be her enjoying her day and me playing my part in whatever she wanted and simply enjoying the moment free of any investment in any of those customs.
It would be like me doing a prayer. I don't believe in God so it would be going through the motions.

As to the "Men are Sexist commentary". Well you read the full post and not just the end paragraph, right?

You have throughout this thread and others, pointed to Men's roles in different traditional aspects of society and described them as sexist. So again I say you either believe:

"Men have cleverly assumed roles in society that place them at risk to die, and women wanted in. Men oblige themselves to option-less obligations which expose them to harm instead of women and women in this society wanted hat obligation. Men have chosen to oblige themselves to roles which all risk and financial burden and social shortfall of his whole family is his and his alone, and that this is not done by consent. Men will oblige themselves to defend their country instead of allowing their women and children to fight and the women who risk getting widowed are harder done by than the men being killed, or shellshocked or severely maimed - and women throughout the ages considered the fact they could not join in the fun not as good. "

OR you agree this is possibly not true and that the role men assumed are not sexist or with sexist intent.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 10:48:03 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2013, 02:05:11 PM »
What's wrong with the racism comments?

Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, whatever. They're all the same type of bigotry, just directed at different people.

Real feminism is about equality, not anti-men stuff. Sure, some "feminists" are definitely anti-men. ANd I have no time for that crap. But genuine feminism is obviously about equality, not bashing men or putting men down. I know self-described feminists who ARE men. And in that respect (wanting equality for men and women), I am one too.

I'm still not sure where you are coming from re "men are sexism commentary"

Yes, I have pointed to ways in which the relative positions of men and women throughout history have been sexist. That is not to say "men are sexist"

The role of men WAS sexist. I think it's obvious that that's what I'm saying. The men themselves were not necessarily sexist though.

Maybe I'm missing your point here. I find it difficult to follow long essays when they're written badly and are rambly and meandering.


Also, you seem to have been ignoring the middle east topic quite a lot again. You still havent fully explained how you came to your position that women aren't persecuted in Iraq etc

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2013, 06:46:41 PM »
Ok, I saw in the peanut gallery that people have been asking for facts. And given that you've posted plenty of fucking ESSAY-length replies for me to read, here's some text back for you:

(it's nearly 2am and I have work to do tomorrow so this was pretty rushed , but I have included sources if you want to further research anything yourself. Apologies in advance for any typos etc

Women's inferior status and violence toward women in Iraq :

*****
Rise of so -called "pleasure marriages" (basically, OK-ed prostitution)

This isn't quite the same as "normal" prostitution though. The woman (unsurprisingly) has less of a say in the whole thing than the man does.

1. Married men can enter into it, although married women can't
2. Men can end the contract at any time, the woman can't
3. often the women are threatened or blackmailed into accepting it to avoid rape or violence

This is also related to a massive trafficking problem in Iraq and across the middle east

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-05-04-pleasure-marriage_x.htm


*****
Female Genital Mutilation

Practised on girls as young as 4 and involves the removal of the clitoris, but occasionally also the inner and outer labia.

THe very fact that this is done to control women's desires, make them "clean" and make them more attractive to men is enough to show that this is sexist, even when you ignore the actual violence of it:

“She has told me about the terrible pain, how much she bled that night and how ashamed she was to tell her family she was hurting. She couldn’t talk to her mother, because her mother was the one who’d taken her to be cut. She felt alone and scared.” (this is from someone growing up in Kirkuk, Iraq)

Long-term health consequences can result from the procedures, including infection, painful sexual intercourse, psychological trauma, and sterility.

Campaigner against FGM in Iraq - I think this speaks for itself. Clearly this is a society strongly AGAINST what this  person is fighting for:

Quote
“I’ve had threats via text message, by phone, by letter, on the internet,” she says. “People come up to me in the street and insult me and political parties have issued threats.”

Her offices were broken into in July last year, and insults daubed on the wall. “I can’t really say what was written because it was too obscene. But one of the things written was ‘You should be scared for your lives, watch out’.”

Requests to the police to provide protection have so far been fruitless.

(and before you snipe back with a "not all Iraqi men support FGM", yes, I know that. Iraq =/= all Iraqis. We're talking legally & politically as well as socially.

http://www.madre.org/index/press-room-4/news/culture-alone-fails-to-account-for-female-genital-mutilation-420.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/Female_Genital_Mutilation_Said_To_Be_Widespread_In_Iraqs_Irans_Kurdistan/1507621.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/fighting-against-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq-8640121.html

http://en.wadi-online.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1041:press-release--female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq-study-shows-fgm-common-in-kirkuk&catid=15:presseerklaerungen&Itemid=109


*****
Forced marriages

Yes, forced marriage. Not just "arranged marriages"
These women - sorry, girls, in many cases - have no say.

The rates of forced marriages of under 16s have also increased. This, in turn, can lead to higher rates of death during childbirth, as “girls between 15 and 18 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy and while giving birth than women between the ages of 20 and 24.”

Please don't tell me 14 yer old girls want or understand what they're getting into here. They're being given away by their fathers. At 15? Is that really necessary? Whatever pathetic justifications you try to spin on this ("oh, the father is just thinking, now I will pass you on to a good man who will take care of you"), that is completely ridiculous when we're talking about girls who haven't yet even reached the age of 18. A decent father would keep his children at home wherever possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/07/world/middleeast/more-suicides-in-iraq-region-where-arranged-marriage-is-common.html?_r=0

http://witnesshr.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/forced-marriages-of-girls-rise-in-iraq.html



*****
Legal position of women

Quote
When Yusra* arrived at one of our shelters, she told a harrowing story of brutal abuse at the hands of her husband and her father. The shelter was the one place she could turn. Under the new constitution, she knew she wouldn’t get justice from the religious courts, where her testimony is worth half of her husband’s and where the laws allow the husband to “discipline” his wife.

That's not sexist? A woman's testimony is worth only half of that of her husband?

Quote
They came for Dr Khaula al-Tallal in a white Opel car after she took a taxi home to the middle class district of Qadissiya in Iraq's holy city of Najaf. She worked for the medical committee that examined patients to assess them for welfare benefit. Crucially, however, she was a woman in a country where being a female professional increasingly invites a death sentence.
As al-Tallal, 50, walked towards her house, one of three men in the Opel stepped out and raked her with bullets.

I suppose you'd say that the reason women don't have jobs in Iraq is just to keep them safe in the home right? Safe from the bullets and bombs?

If you really believe that, just becuase women are less likely to be killed by a sniper, they are being kept safe from violence, then have a read of this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/08/iraq.peterbeaumont


*****
Honor killings and domestic violence

If the women of Iraq are happy with being away from the bombs and the bullets and think it's all fucking great and brilliant, why the need for so many women's shelters and underground railroads to help them flee the country?

A UNICEF survey of adolescent girls aged 15–19, covering the years 2002-2009, asked them if they think that a husband is justified in hitting or beating his wife under certain circumstances; 57% responded yes.

In 2011, nearly half of girls aged 10 to 14 were exposed to violence at least once by a family member, and nearly half of married women were exposed to at least one form of spousal violence, mostly emotional, but also physical and sexual, according to a survey by the government and the UN Population Fund (UNFPA).


Often ends in death:

2012

 a man drenched his three daughters in boiling water and then shot them because he suspected them of having sex. An autopsy later showed they were all virgins. He received a sentence of just two years because of a stipulation in Iraq’s penal code which reduces murder to a maximum of three years in prison if a man surprises his wife or female dependants “in a state of adultery”

Please read that again, Les. Even if that had been an isolated case (hmm...), the fact that he received such a short sentence, the REASON why he received a short sentence, and the very fact that it was even deemed necessary to check if they were virgins afterwards... all this points towards women being the inferior class in Iraq.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/trapped-violence-women-iraq-20090420

*****
War-related violence

Another "point" you've made is that women are kept safe in their homes away from the dangers of war. Sure, they may be statistically much less likely to be hit by a sniper, but a bomb in a mosque or a market place is pretty indescriminatory, and there's plenty of evidence to show that women WERE direct victims of the war

Yanar Mohammed comes to the following conclusion :
"According to our estimates, no fewer than 30 women were executed by the militias in Bagdad and in the suburbs. During the first ten days of November 2007, more than 150 unclaimed women's corpses, most of them decapitated, mutilated, or having evidence of extreme torture, were processed through the Bagdad morgue."

Anyway, is it REALLY just out of kind-heartedness and a desire to protect the women that they're kept in the kitchen?

Nuha Salim :
"The insurgents and militias do not want us in the professional sphere for various reasons: some because they believe women were born to stay at home - and cook and clean -- and others because they say that it is contrary to Islam that a man and woman should find themselves in the same place if they are not related."

When women;s illiteracy rates are more than double that of the male population, I think it's pretty clear that it's not just to protect the women. It's a cultural thing, yes, but it's a sexist cultural thing. Just as the "separate spheres" of Victorian men and women were sexist. A different culture or a different era, of course. But that doesn't make it any less sexist. Just more understandable.

Besides, even if women HAD been protected from the bullets and bombs, does that justify the rest of the abuse and gender-specific crimes and violations they've been subject to (and still are subject to)?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/18/opinion/iraq-war-women-salbi

http://www.madre.org/index/press-room-4/news/a-decade-of-occupation-for-iraqi-women-862.html

http://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/monitoring-violence-against-women-iraq

http://x.dawn.com/2013/04/09/post-conflict-women-iraq-hope-and-violence/

Looking forward to your response.

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2013, 06:20:23 AM »
Ok, I saw in the peanut gallery that people have been asking for facts. And given that you've posted plenty of fucking ESSAY-length replies for me to read, here's some text back for you:

(it's nearly 2am and I have work to do tomorrow so this was pretty rushed , but I have included sources if you want to further research anything yourself. Apologies in advance for any typos etc

Women's inferior status and violence toward women in Iraq :

*****
Rise of so -called "pleasure marriages" (basically, OK-ed prostitution)

This isn't quite the same as "normal" prostitution though. The woman (unsurprisingly) has less of a say in the whole thing than the man does.

1. Married men can enter into it, although married women can't
2. Men can end the contract at any time, the woman can't
3. often the women are threatened or blackmailed into accepting it to avoid rape or violence

This is also related to a massive trafficking problem in Iraq and across the middle east

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-05-04-pleasure-marriage_x.htm


*****
Female Genital Mutilation

Practised on girls as young as 4 and involves the removal of the clitoris, but occasionally also the inner and outer labia.

THe very fact that this is done to control women's desires, make them "clean" and make them more attractive to men is enough to show that this is sexist, even when you ignore the actual violence of it:

“She has told me about the terrible pain, how much she bled that night and how ashamed she was to tell her family she was hurting. She couldn’t talk to her mother, because her mother was the one who’d taken her to be cut. She felt alone and scared.” (this is from someone growing up in Kirkuk, Iraq)

Long-term health consequences can result from the procedures, including infection, painful sexual intercourse, psychological trauma, and sterility.

Campaigner against FGM in Iraq - I think this speaks for itself. Clearly this is a society strongly AGAINST what this  person is fighting for:

Quote
“I’ve had threats via text message, by phone, by letter, on the internet,” she says. “People come up to me in the street and insult me and political parties have issued threats.”

Her offices were broken into in July last year, and insults daubed on the wall. “I can’t really say what was written because it was too obscene. But one of the things written was ‘You should be scared for your lives, watch out’.”

Requests to the police to provide protection have so far been fruitless.

(and before you snipe back with a "not all Iraqi men support FGM", yes, I know that. Iraq =/= all Iraqis. We're talking legally & politically as well as socially.

http://www.madre.org/index/press-room-4/news/culture-alone-fails-to-account-for-female-genital-mutilation-420.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/Female_Genital_Mutilation_Said_To_Be_Widespread_In_Iraqs_Irans_Kurdistan/1507621.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/fighting-against-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq-8640121.html

http://en.wadi-online.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1041:press-release--female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq-study-shows-fgm-common-in-kirkuk&catid=15:presseerklaerungen&Itemid=109


*****
Forced marriages

Yes, forced marriage. Not just "arranged marriages"
These women - sorry, girls, in many cases - have no say.

The rates of forced marriages of under 16s have also increased. This, in turn, can lead to higher rates of death during childbirth, as “girls between 15 and 18 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy and while giving birth than women between the ages of 20 and 24.”

Please don't tell me 14 yer old girls want or understand what they're getting into here. They're being given away by their fathers. At 15? Is that really necessary? Whatever pathetic justifications you try to spin on this ("oh, the father is just thinking, now I will pass you on to a good man who will take care of you"), that is completely ridiculous when we're talking about girls who haven't yet even reached the age of 18. A decent father would keep his children at home wherever possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/07/world/middleeast/more-suicides-in-iraq-region-where-arranged-marriage-is-common.html?_r=0

http://witnesshr.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/forced-marriages-of-girls-rise-in-iraq.html



*****
Legal position of women

Quote
When Yusra* arrived at one of our shelters, she told a harrowing story of brutal abuse at the hands of her husband and her father. The shelter was the one place she could turn. Under the new constitution, she knew she wouldn’t get justice from the religious courts, where her testimony is worth half of her husband’s and where the laws allow the husband to “discipline” his wife.

That's not sexist? A woman's testimony is worth only half of that of her husband?

Quote
They came for Dr Khaula al-Tallal in a white Opel car after she took a taxi home to the middle class district of Qadissiya in Iraq's holy city of Najaf. She worked for the medical committee that examined patients to assess them for welfare benefit. Crucially, however, she was a woman in a country where being a female professional increasingly invites a death sentence.
As al-Tallal, 50, walked towards her house, one of three men in the Opel stepped out and raked her with bullets.

I suppose you'd say that the reason women don't have jobs in Iraq is just to keep them safe in the home right? Safe from the bullets and bombs?

If you really believe that, just becuase women are less likely to be killed by a sniper, they are being kept safe from violence, then have a read of this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/08/iraq.peterbeaumont


*****
Honor killings and domestic violence

If the women of Iraq are happy with being away from the bombs and the bullets and think it's all fucking great and brilliant, why the need for so many women's shelters and underground railroads to help them flee the country?

A UNICEF survey of adolescent girls aged 15–19, covering the years 2002-2009, asked them if they think that a husband is justified in hitting or beating his wife under certain circumstances; 57% responded yes.

In 2011, nearly half of girls aged 10 to 14 were exposed to violence at least once by a family member, and nearly half of married women were exposed to at least one form of spousal violence, mostly emotional, but also physical and sexual, according to a survey by the government and the UN Population Fund (UNFPA).


Often ends in death:

2012

 a man drenched his three daughters in boiling water and then shot them because he suspected them of having sex. An autopsy later showed they were all virgins. He received a sentence of just two years because of a stipulation in Iraq’s penal code which reduces murder to a maximum of three years in prison if a man surprises his wife or female dependants “in a state of adultery”

Please read that again, Les. Even if that had been an isolated case (hmm...), the fact that he received such a short sentence, the REASON why he received a short sentence, and the very fact that it was even deemed necessary to check if they were virgins afterwards... all this points towards women being the inferior class in Iraq.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/trapped-violence-women-iraq-20090420

*****
War-related violence

Another "point" you've made is that women are kept safe in their homes away from the dangers of war. Sure, they may be statistically much less likely to be hit by a sniper, but a bomb in a mosque or a market place is pretty indescriminatory, and there's plenty of evidence to show that women WERE direct victims of the war

Yanar Mohammed comes to the following conclusion :
"According to our estimates, no fewer than 30 women were executed by the militias in Bagdad and in the suburbs. During the first ten days of November 2007, more than 150 unclaimed women's corpses, most of them decapitated, mutilated, or having evidence of extreme torture, were processed through the Bagdad morgue."

Anyway, is it REALLY just out of kind-heartedness and a desire to protect the women that they're kept in the kitchen?

Nuha Salim :
"The insurgents and militias do not want us in the professional sphere for various reasons: some because they believe women were born to stay at home - and cook and clean -- and others because they say that it is contrary to Islam that a man and woman should find themselves in the same place if they are not related."

When women;s illiteracy rates are more than double that of the male population, I think it's pretty clear that it's not just to protect the women. It's a cultural thing, yes, but it's a sexist cultural thing. Just as the "separate spheres" of Victorian men and women were sexist. A different culture or a different era, of course. But that doesn't make it any less sexist. Just more understandable.

Besides, even if women HAD been protected from the bullets and bombs, does that justify the rest of the abuse and gender-specific crimes and violations they've been subject to (and still are subject to)?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/18/opinion/iraq-war-women-salbi

http://www.madre.org/index/press-room-4/news/a-decade-of-occupation-for-iraqi-women-862.html

http://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/monitoring-violence-against-women-iraq

http://x.dawn.com/2013/04/09/post-conflict-women-iraq-hope-and-violence/

Looking forward to your response.

OK incoming.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2013, 07:56:57 AM »


*****
Rise of so -called "pleasure marriages" (basically, OK-ed prostitution)

This isn't quite the same as "normal" prostitution though. The woman (unsurprisingly) has less of a say in the whole thing than the man does.

1. Married men can enter into it, although married women can't
2. Men can end the contract at any time, the woman can't
3. often the women are threatened or blackmailed into accepting it to avoid rape or violence

This is also related to a massive trafficking problem in Iraq and across the middle east

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-05-04-pleasure-marriage_x.htm


From the same article

"The 1,400-year-old practice of muta'a— "ecstasy" in Arabic — is as old as Islam itself. It was permitted by the prophet Mohammed as a way to ensure a respectable means of income for widowed women.....Women's rights activists are concerned. Salama Al-Khafaji, a Shiite lawmaker who supports the concept of sharia law but advocates for women's rights, calls the re-emergence of muta'a an "unhealthy phenomenon."

With the right intentions, she says, muta'a can serve the noble purpose of helping divorced and widowed women. But too many men are using temporary marriages to exploit women for sex, she says. Her solution is to reinforce the importance of permanent marriages with work programs for newlywed couples and education campaigns."


What are we arguing here? Prostitution is bad? Some women are sometimes exploited? That is isn't sometimes noble as that Iraqi women's rights activist quoted?
Seems like most things, in the best case scenario it is really no issue but at worst it is not a great idea. Like the argument around the porn industry with some women arguing against the whole concept and others supporting women performers rights to make such choices, while the men say "OK whatever...more tits and arse, please."


*****
Female Genital Mutilation

Practised on girls as young as 4 and involves the removal of the clitoris, but occasionally also the inner and outer labia.

THe very fact that this is done to control women's desires, make them "clean" and make them more attractive to men is enough to show that this is sexist, even when you ignore the actual violence of it:

“She has told me about the terrible pain, how much she bled that night and how ashamed she was to tell her family she was hurting. She couldn’t talk to her mother, because her mother was the one who’d taken her to be cut. She felt alone and scared.” (this is from someone growing up in Kirkuk, Iraq)

Long-term health consequences can result from the procedures, including infection, painful sexual intercourse, psychological trauma, and sterility.

Campaigner against FGM in Iraq - I think this speaks for itself. Clearly this is a society strongly AGAINST what this  person is fighting for:

Quote
“I’ve had threats via text message, by phone, by letter, on the internet,” she says. “People come up to me in the street and insult me and political parties have issued threats.”

Her offices were broken into in July last year, and insults daubed on the wall. “I can’t really say what was written because it was too obscene. But one of the things written was ‘You should be scared for your lives, watch out’.”

Requests to the police to provide protection have so far been fruitless.

(and before you snipe back with a "not all Iraqi men support FGM", yes, I know that. Iraq =/= all Iraqis. We're talking legally & politically as well as socially.

http://www.madre.org/index/press-room-4/news/culture-alone-fails-to-account-for-female-genital-mutilation-420.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/Female_Genital_Mutilation_Said_To_Be_Widespread_In_Iraqs_Irans_Kurdistan/1507621.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/fighting-against-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq-8640121.html

http://en.wadi-online.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1041:press-release--female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq-study-shows-fgm-common-in-kirkuk&catid=15:presseerklaerungen&Itemid=109

I am supposed to be arguing against barbaric religious practices? Shall I also make a case as to the "sexism" of the Jewish male circumcision? No  I do not think many would classify that as sexist? Am I right?
I really don't know that this is sexist. Revolting, cruel, barbaric and demonic, absolutely.
In my view, no normal person could look at a newborn baby and smile and say, "Isn't she/he beautiful? Want to cut some of them off?"
I do not know why you are trying to make a case for me being indifferent to human suffering or saying that if I do not believe something is necessarily sexist that it is a fucking great idea.
Religious ideas are generally dodgy in my view and the worst ones - like this are unjustifiable.

*****
Forced marriages

Yes, forced marriage. Not just "arranged marriages"
These women - sorry, girls, in many cases - have no say.

The rates of forced marriages of under 16s have also increased. This, in turn, can lead to higher rates of death during childbirth, as “girls between 15 and 18 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy and while giving birth than women between the ages of 20 and 24.”

Please don't tell me 14 yer old girls want or understand what they're getting into here. They're being given away by their fathers. At 15? Is that really necessary? Whatever pathetic justifications you try to spin on this ("oh, the father is just thinking, now I will pass you on to a good man who will take care of you"), that is completely ridiculous when we're talking about girls who haven't yet even reached the age of 18. A decent father would keep his children at home wherever possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/07/world/middleeast/more-suicides-in-iraq-region-where-arranged-marriage-is-common.html?_r=0

http://witnesshr.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/forced-marriages-of-girls-rise-in-iraq.html

Yay, the joy of the religious fundamentalists. I have not understood the appeal of 15 year old girls. Lit may be able to shed some light on that. Or maybe even your old mate Scrap. Personally I think that is too young to be married off.
I think that in years gone by it may have made sense and I think the religious clerics that drive such initiatives are (and must surely know) driving the culture into the 1800's.
It is actually a good point and I will expand on this in my next post.

*****
Legal position of women

Quote
When Yusra* arrived at one of our shelters, she told a harrowing story of brutal abuse at the hands of her husband and her father. The shelter was the one place she could turn. Under the new constitution, she knew she wouldn’t get justice from the religious courts, where her testimony is worth half of her husband’s and where the laws allow the husband to “discipline” his wife.

That's not sexist? A woman's testimony is worth only half of that of her husband?

Quote
They came for Dr Khaula al-Tallal in a white Opel car after she took a taxi home to the middle class district of Qadissiya in Iraq's holy city of Najaf. She worked for the medical committee that examined patients to assess them for welfare benefit. Crucially, however, she was a woman in a country where being a female professional increasingly invites a death sentence.
As al-Tallal, 50, walked towards her house, one of three men in the Opel stepped out and raked her with bullets.

I suppose you'd say that the reason women don't have jobs in Iraq is just to keep them safe in the home right? Safe from the bullets and bombs?

If you really believe that, just becuase women are less likely to be killed by a sniper, they are being kept safe from violence, then have a read of this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/08/iraq.peterbeaumont

I absolutely believe that they are less likely to be killed by sniper. Yes I do have stats to back that in my next post.
I know where the women's testimony being given half the weight of a man's. The reasoning was unless one of the women forgot what happened?  :laugh: Shouldn't laugh. I read up about the obligations for women vs men and the benefits and roles and in Islamic faith and from what I could see, they were a real mixed bag. Some like this clear do not favour women, others favour women over men.
What you have to be keenly aware of it that the fundamentalists are not promoting anything but the most extremist and perverse reading of the quran.

*****
Honor killings and domestic violence

If the women of Iraq are happy with being away from the bombs and the bullets and think it's all fucking great and brilliant, why the need for so many women's shelters and underground railroads to help them flee the country?

A UNICEF survey of adolescent girls aged 15–19, covering the years 2002-2009, asked them if they think that a husband is justified in hitting or beating his wife under certain circumstances; 57% responded yes.

In 2011, nearly half of girls aged 10 to 14 were exposed to violence at least once by a family member, and nearly half of married women were exposed to at least one form of spousal violence, mostly emotional, but also physical and sexual, according to a survey by the government and the UN Population Fund (UNFPA).


Often ends in death:

2012

 a man drenched his three daughters in boiling water and then shot them because he suspected them of having sex. An autopsy later showed they were all virgins. He received a sentence of just two years because of a stipulation in Iraq’s penal code which reduces murder to a maximum of three years in prison if a man surprises his wife or female dependants “in a state of adultery”

Please read that again, Les. Even if that had been an isolated case (hmm...), the fact that he received such a short sentence, the REASON why he received a short sentence, and the very fact that it was even deemed necessary to check if they were virgins afterwards... all this points towards women being the inferior class in Iraq.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/trapped-violence-women-iraq-20090420

Yes I think that the boiling water thing is an isolated case and better left off what is is a great point.
I will expand on this in my next post.

*****
War-related violence

Another "point" you've made is that women are kept safe in their homes away from the dangers of war. Sure, they may be statistically much less likely to be hit by a sniper, but a bomb in a mosque or a market place is pretty indescriminatory, and there's plenty of evidence to show that women WERE direct victims of the war

Yanar Mohammed comes to the following conclusion :
"According to our estimates, no fewer than 30 women were executed by the militias in Bagdad and in the suburbs. During the first ten days of November 2007, more than 150 unclaimed women's corpses, most of them decapitated, mutilated, or having evidence of extreme torture, were processed through the Bagdad morgue."

Anyway, is it REALLY just out of kind-heartedness and a desire to protect the women that they're kept in the kitchen?

Nuha Salim :
"The insurgents and militias do not want us in the professional sphere for various reasons: some because they believe women were born to stay at home - and cook and clean -- and others because they say that it is contrary to Islam that a man and woman should find themselves in the same place if they are not related."

When women;s illiteracy rates are more than double that of the male population, I think it's pretty clear that it's not just to protect the women. It's a cultural thing, yes, but it's a sexist cultural thing. Just as the "separate spheres" of Victorian men and women were sexist. A different culture or a different era, of course. But that doesn't make it any less sexist. Just more understandable.

Besides, even if women HAD been protected from the bullets and bombs, does that justify the rest of the abuse and gender-specific crimes and violations they've been subject to (and still are subject to)?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/18/opinion/iraq-war-women-salbi

http://www.madre.org/index/press-room-4/news/a-decade-of-occupation-for-iraqi-women-862.html

http://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/monitoring-violence-against-women-iraq

http://x.dawn.com/2013/04/09/post-conflict-women-iraq-hope-and-violence/

Looking forward to your response.

I don't think this point really has any real strength. But I will respond on the next post.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2013, 08:56:27 AM »
Well I certainly hope your "next post" is a little better, as I've got to say, that was pretty poor.

Anyway...

Quote
From the same article

"The 1,400-year-old practice of muta'a— "ecstasy" in Arabic — is as old as Islam itself. It was permitted by the prophet Mohammed as a way to ensure a respectable means of income for widowed women.....Women's rights activists are concerned. Salama Al-Khafaji, a Shiite lawmaker who supports the concept of sharia law but advocates for women's rights, calls the re-emergence of muta'a an "unhealthy phenomenon."

With the right intentions, she says, muta'a can serve the noble purpose of helping divorced and widowed women. But too many men are using temporary marriages to exploit women for sex, she says. Her solution is to reinforce the importance of permanent marriages with work programs for newlywed couples and education campaigns."


What are we arguing here? Prostitution is bad? Some women are sometimes exploited? That is isn't sometimes noble as that Iraqi women's rights activist quoted?
Seems like most things, in the best case scenario it is really no issue but at worst it is not a great idea. Like the argument around the porn industry with some women arguing against the whole concept and others supporting women performers rights to make such choices, while the men say "OK whatever...more tits and arse, please."

Lol, yes I saw that was from the same post. I read it before I quoted it. It's clearly not much of a positive though. And notice the following secntence begins "but..." It's really not that noble now, is it? Do you really think all the men "marrying" these women for a couple hours are doing it for the noble purpose of helping out a war widow? Or could it be to get laid without the religious-shame that would otherwise come along with that? I'm not sure how you're arguing here. Or even if you believe what you're saying yourself.

Quote
I am supposed to be arguing against barbaric religious practices? Shall I also make a case as to the "sexism" of the Jewish male circumcision? No  I do not think many would classify that as sexist? Am I right?

Cricumcising male children (while I strongly disagree with it myself) is not the same as FGM. And I think you know that as well as I do.

And of course FGM is sexist. It's mainly about controlling women's ability to have/enjoy sex.

It is entirely different to male circumcision and you know that.

Also, remember, this wasn't just about what is technically "sexist." It was originally about the oppression of women in Iraq and the way that they are treated. Even if you disagree that it is sexist, you clearly agree that it is barbaric. So you have to accept that women are being oppressed AS WOMEN in the middle east.

Quote
Yay, the joy of the religious fundamentalists. I have not understood the appeal of 15 year old girls. Lit may be able to shed some light on that. Or maybe even your old mate Scrap.

Huh? My mate Scrap? He may have been involved in arguments on here that I was also involved in (again, why are you harking back to 2010? Move on.) but he certainly has never been a friend of mine. In fact, we got on pretty badly iirc. Nevermind though, that clearly has fuck all to do with the callout, so I'll pass over that strange point.



Quote
I absolutely believe that they are less likely to be killed by sniper. Yes I do have stats to back that in my next post.
No need. I don't think we've ever been arguing about whether men are more likely to be killed by bullets. Of course they are.



Quote
others favour women over men.
Please give me some examples of Iraqi laws that favour women. Thanks in advance


Quote
What you have to be keenly aware of it that the fundamentalists are not promoting anything but the most extremist and perverse reading of the quran.

That's lovely, and you've told me that several times already, but it's also irrelevant. Whether they're extremists or not (well, of course they are) they are still "promoting" this oppression of women.


Quote
It is actually a good point and I will expand on this in my next post.

Please do.

Quote
Yes I think that the boiling water thing is an isolated case and better left off what is is a great point.
I will expand on this in my next post.

I look forward to it.

Quote
I don't think this point really has any real strength. But I will respond on the next post.

Given that it;s in response to YOUR main point, I think it's pretty relevant, so I'm glad you will respond when you make the much anticipated "next post"

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Les
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2013, 09:04:52 AM »
OK My conviction throughout this has been the following,

The society that Iraq has become is nothing less than the socially and culturally regressed and oppressed nation that is at the mercy of a small but controlling collection of tribal and religious fundamentalists and that men and women are equally oppressed in different ways. Men and women in this society are subject to oppression equally but in different ways, and that that regardless of the new religious policies that men and women are victims of this and are forced just to go along with things. The attacks on the come from outside in the form of religious nutbags and their associates not from within their own people.

Now you have shown women being oppressed. Absolutely you have. You have also backed every assertion usually citing pretty bloody good sources.

Here is me backing my assertions

http://library.thinkquest.org/07aug/01443/fo_region_iraq.html

"There has been a large significant improvement of women’s lives in Iraq from the 1960s to the early 1980s because of the Ba’ath Party, something that placed Iraq on the forefront of protection of women’s rights in the Middle East before. In 1948, Iraq introduced the first female judge in the Middle East. The improvement of women’s lives was also something that was indicative of the advancement of Iraq’s society as many consider how civilised a community is by how well their women are treated. However, these improvements and the Ba’ath Party’s effort in the history of emancipation of women left little mark as Saddam Hussein’s regime took over in 1979. Saddam Hussein’s governance led to a general deterioration of the protection of human rights. However, things grew worse for the women as the government consolidated its power and controlled the people by collaboration with Islamic extremists and powerful religious tribal leaders."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/30/world/middleeast/30saddam.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"His own conviction that he was destined by God to rule Iraq forever was such that he refused to accept that he would be overthrown in April 2003, even as American tanks penetrated the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, in a war that has become a bitterly contentious, bloody occupation."

There the rot sets in. So according to my premise it was less regressed than this. Saddam was responsible give power and voice to the very people who now carry on his legacy of tyrannical oppression. He was as fundamentalist and religious as the next guy. Probably more.

As for the oppression against women? You make a great case. Here is an interesting tidbit against men. It doesn't seem that their is great data. Hardly surprising.

http://ejil.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/2/253.full

Reports of sexual violence by men against men emerge from numerous conflicts, ranging in time from Ancient Persia and the Crusades to the conflicts in Iraq and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Despite these accounts, relatively little material exists on the subject and the issue tends to be relegated to a footnote. This article ascertains the extent to which male sexual violence is committed in armed conflict. It considers factors that explain under-reporting by victims and lack of detection on the part of others. The particular forms of male sexual violence are also examined: namely rape, enforced sterilization and other forms of sexual violence, including enforced nudity, enforced masturbation and genital violence.

http://thinkafricapress.com/gender/invisible-victims-male-rape-great-lakes-drc-congo

"Much less attention is being paid, however, to male victims of rape.
Male victims
Like women, men are also targeted and suffer sexual violence. This issue, however, has received considerably less publicity and examination. There are also few organisations set up to help male victims, the stigma around men who have been raped remains particularly strong in societies across the world, and the problem receives relatively meagre discussion amongst governments, aid agencies and human rights organisations.
This is perhaps surprising given that sexual violence against men has been documented in conflicts as far and wide as Yugoslavia, Iraq and El Salvador and that it is often widespread. One third of the male combatants in Liberia’s civil war, for example, reported suffering some form of sexual abuse; 21% of the tortured Sri Lankan Tamil males receiving care in London claimed to have experienced sexual violence; and in El Salvador in the 1980s, 76% of male political prisoners were allegedly victims of sexual torture.
There are no reliable statistics on the number of male victims in the DRC and Great Lakes Region as of yet, but whispers that sexual violence is being used against boys and men as well as girls and women are growing louder though the issue remains under-reported and under-examined."


I dunno. it seems that there doesn't seem any real effort to bring attention to this. Why?

I know you tried to make a point to women being exposed to a similar or comparable risk of death and violence.

http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/reports/human-cost-war-101106.pdf

"Age distribution of deaths
Figure 4 shows the age and sex for all deaths in the survey households and those deaths that were reported from violent causes. The first graph shows all deaths. The pattern for females is what would be usual for both males and females, in almost all countries of the world. However, in this graph there is a great excess in deaths among males of all ages in comparison with females. In the next graph is shown the deaths from violent causes by age and sex. As can be seen, violent deaths account for most of the deaths, and violent deaths are almost entirely in males. Among the males, there were no practical survey methods to determine which of the deaths were among active combatants. It is interesting to note that the largest single age group of female deaths was among the under age 15 years.
"

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/

"Current deaths per year for civilians in Iraq (at between 4 and 5 thousand) are still of the same order as the total number of US and Coalition military killed over the entire 10 year period (now 4,804 according to http://icasualties.org). Overall there have been 25 Iraqi civilian deaths for every one US and coalition forces death.
Iraqi victims of the war come from all walks of life. IBC was able to determine the occupation of nearly 23,600 victims, covering some 700 professions. By far the greatest number were police who, along with journalists, are also most likely to have their profession mentioned, and hence to have been most completely recorded.
IBC’s documented occupational groupings, and the number of deaths reported for each, include:
10,238 police (excluding paramilitaries)
2,783 neighbourhood and private security
1,605 officials and public sector workers
751 community and religious leaders
288 journalists and media workers
265 medics and health care workers
4 For a detailed account of the demographics of victims and the weapons that killed them, see IBC co-authored articles in the New England Journal of Medicine, PLoS Medicine, and The Lancet
Among slightly more than 50,000 victims about whom IBC could obtain demographic information, men numbered 38,441 (77%), women 4,373 (8.7%), and children 4,191 (8.4%). The weapons that kill women and children tend to be different from those used to kill adult males, who are more often directly or even individually targeted. 4
5 For a review of these incidents up to Oct 2007, see Large bombings claim ever more lives"


What about men bashing women? That partner violence thing that is usually started by sexist blokes bashing wives. We know that the trends are well and truly against the females. Feminists striving for equality have told us that for years.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

"SUMMARY:  This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners.  The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf

"Graham-Kevan's paper fully documents overwhelming evidence that the "patriarchal dominance" theory of partner violence CPV from here on) explains only a small part of pv. Moreover, more such evidence is rapidly emerging. To take just one recent example, analyses of data from 32 nations in the Intemational Dating Violence Study (Straus, 2007) Straus and International Dating Violence Research Consortium 2004) found about equal perpetration rates and a predominance of mutual violence in all 32 samples, including non- Western nations. Moreover, data from that study also show that, within a couple relationship, domination and control by women occur as often as bv mpn qnd are as strongly associated with perpetration of PV by women as by men (Straus 2007) Graham- Kevan also documents the absence of evidence indicating that the patriarchal dominance approach to prevention and treatment has been effective. In my opinion, it would be even more appropriate to say that what success has been achieved in preventing and treating PV has been achieved despite the handicaps imposed by focusing exclusively on eliminating male-dominance and misogyny, important as that is as an end in itself."

So taking that into account I am prepared to really dispute the

*****
Honor killings and domestic violence

If the women of Iraq are happy with being away from the bombs and the bullets and think it's all fucking great and brilliant, why the need for so many women's shelters and underground railroads to help them flee the country?

A UNICEF survey of adolescent girls aged 15–19, covering the years 2002-2009, asked them if they think that a husband is justified in hitting or beating his wife under certain circumstances; 57% responded yes.

In 2011, nearly half of girls aged 10 to 14 were exposed to violence at least once by a family member, and nearly half of married women were exposed to at least one form of spousal violence, mostly emotional, but also physical and sexual, according to a survey by the government and the UN Population Fund (UNFPA).

and

Forced marriages

Yes, forced marriage. Not just "arranged marriages"
These women - sorry, girls, in many cases - have no say.

The rates of forced marriages of under 16s have also increased. This, in turn, can lead to higher rates of death during childbirth, as “girls between 15 and 18 are twice as likely to die during pregnancy and while giving birth than women between the ages of 20 and 24.”

Please don't tell me 14 yer old girls want or understand what they're getting into here. They're being given away by their fathers. At 15? Is that really necessary? Whatever pathetic justifications you try to spin on this ("oh, the father is just thinking, now I will pass you on to a good man who will take care of you"), that is completely ridiculous when we're talking about girls who haven't yet even reached the age of 18. A decent father would keep his children at home wherever possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/07/world/middleeast/more-suicides-in-iraq-region-where-arranged-marriage-is-common.html?_r=0

http://witnesshr.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/forced-marriages-of-girls-rise-in-iraq.html

Actually I m not.

There are a few reasons for this.

Firstly, I got more bad news today and I am not a happy camper. Not really in the frame of mind to continue this and don't want it hanging over my head.

Secondly, a lot of the issues surrounding men and men rights are pretty much omitted or ignored and it is a LOT harder to sift through to find acceptable morsels. I would normally consider it a challenge. Not now though.

Thirdly, If you see my premise, you will see it makes some bloody reasonable follow on logical assessments. it presumes that men being protectors and the Islamic law charging men with being protectors and provider of women and having spoken at length on such matters with a Muslim Iraqi friend, that I could reasonably assume that this was true. The men by and large were decent (exceptions in any population) that they were getting a bad rap from the violence by supporter of the tribal leaders and religious fundamentalists.
So therefore and given what seems documented about the "equality" of violence by gender in domestic abuse despite efforts to paint men as more violent, we should be able to contest reports. It ought to be able to be dismissed or subject to the same mistrust as other sources that over the years have cited men as the more statistically likely to be the aggressors in a marriage.
But I don't dismiss them. I believe them. I know the organisation and I think it is credible and not likely to be supported by Feminist ideologies. I also think that the numbers simply are too great to ignore.

Fourthly, I don't agree with forced marriages. My mate at work had an arranged marriage and it is working out great. They are very happy and they are expecting child number two. They were arranged young and through the parents and about the same age. They are both very nice. Forced marriages are not like that. I agree there is something rather repellent about it. I a a Father myself an dI could not imagine putting my daughter on a chopping block like that.
That is not protecting. It is not Fatherly.
Even in that there MAY STILL be a point to it all if it was 1600 or even 1800. It isn't. I can not really justify it.

Adam I won't agree with you in everything. I do not think you are right with everything. But part of what my premise demanded from the outset is that the genders were oppressed from without and when I see the men (yes the Iraqui men in pretty bad percentages) as perpetrators against women, it is rather sad and demoralising. It is worse too that the very laws their faith demands are cast aside in favour of tribal wishes. The decent men there seem in rather small minorities. Maybe all the good ones were killed or have left like my friend.

I do not feel that this will really be resolved. I could argue over points and make a case for misrepresentations and lack of reporting on male oppression and such. My heart is not in it though.

Happy to finish things here. You want to call it a win for you that is fine. I did find those articles interesting.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 09:31:32 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Les
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2013, 09:11:19 AM »
Just skimmed through most of that as it's still the middle of the day here, but I will read it properly later.

I agree with the last couple of paragraphs though and am happy to end it (although I may respond to any points you made against what I said when I read through your post properly later, as it would be irresponsible of me to ignore them if I feel they warrant a response)

Also I hope the bad news isn't related to your daughter's accident and wish her the best in her recovery!