Author Topic: Scrap, get your arse over here!  (Read 2894 times)

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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2013, 04:30:38 PM »
The only acceptable twilight is the one that happens twice a day, without any action from Meyers.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 08:42:34 PM »
I don't think the loser of a callout should have to apologize. That feels way too much like a first grade teacher hauling up a couple squabbling kids by the scruff of their neck and demanding "apologies" which are then given, with zero sincerity, through gritted teeth and with sullen eyes. Only to wait until after school when the kids have at it again with no meddling schoolmarm interference.

There's a certain point of honor in conceding gracefully. But there's also value in standing by your opinions even in the face of intense opposition. A baying crowd is not always right just because they're in the majority. I've seen another callout system where the loser is forbidden from posting again until they apologize to the winner. That's bullshit IMO, and goes against the independent spirit that so many people on the spectrum (and off it) have developed. It's enough of a challenge to stick around and keep your head up after you've taken a hard loss in a callout. I see no reason to drag people through the mud in any kind of forced humiliation.

The dynamics of Scrap's demand are slightly different, because it's hard to imagine the site owner slinking off with his tail between his legs even if he was defeated in a callout. It is, however, easier to imagine his refusing to concede defeat in a draw, and then "winning" by virtue of his position rather than the merits of his argument. Since one of the original points of this callout was the question of whether it was legitimate for Odeon to ban Scrap's sock out of personal vindictiveness rather than an established site rule, I can see how Scrap might believe Odeon might do a similar thing if he got butthurt from losing a callout. I don't personally think Odeon would, but eh, I'm a (relatively) neutral party. Hence Scrap might be asking for the promise of an apology to compensate for the risk of going up against further vindictiveness which he would be powerless to prevent.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 03:45:57 AM »
Not personal vindictiveness, though, Pyraxis, no butthurt involved. Scrap's sock had been the exception for ages when the idiot troll came along spamming the board with the big red lettering. I set out to clean up when I logged on in the morning only to discover that Scrap had made that task more difficult by trolling.

That's when I thought enough is enough.

I don't want to "win" because of my position here and I'd like to think that I can concede gracefully, but there's no way I'll agree to apologising before the callout was under way.

And I realise meeting me in a callout is special because of my position, but I don't think I have acted out of vindictiveness because of an outcome I didn't like.
I know, I know, it's just that I don't know what should be there. :GA:
Could put some awesome Jack quote in there.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2013, 07:34:01 AM »
Odeon, did you offer scrap a chance to cease and desist with his trolling sock before you simply banned it?

If not then you can certainly see why scrap thinks it might be revenge for a different disagreement you both had.
Scrap has been a member o this community for a very long time.  And, it has been established that his sock puppet was the exception (grandfathered in), if you simply took unilateral action then I can certainly understand (and feel) his concern.

Clearly, though, you both have issues empathizing with others.  Why not call this a wash, give him back his seldom used plaything and ask him to be respectful in the future when you are cleaning up a mess on the site?

Compromise.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2013, 12:14:16 PM »
Why should his sock be the exception, McJ? What he did is just about the only thing he has ever used his sock for. Either nobody gets to use sockpuppets or everyone does. A compromise to sooth Scrap's butthurt is poor site policy, IMHO.
I know, I know, it's just that I don't know what should be there. :GA:
Could put some awesome Jack quote in there.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 12:18:35 PM »
It looks bad for you.  He claimed that he was grandfathered in, which you didn't answer.
And that the only reason he lost it now is that you were but hurt by something else he did recently.  Basically he is claiming that you are punishing him, a grown man, because he hurt your feelings.
All you said in response was a casual, no, not butt hurt.
But he evidence doesn't add up. I think he has a point.  Why did he lose his suck puppet now, after all these years....especially if (as you claim) he only used it now as he had the entire time he had it.
Why now?
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Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 12:19:42 PM »
Punishing a member because the admin is butt hurt is poor site policy...IMHO.
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Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 12:34:16 PM »
Gary_Glitter and JelloBiafra are my sock puppets.  I don't need them.  I don't see a use for them.  I am not butt hurt.  I hope I haven't butt hurt anyone here.
This would be a good time to close mine.  Or have a discussion whether or not they should exist.
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Online Al Swearengen

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 12:37:46 PM »
I don't like these types of "You mad brah" type claims. Odeon says no and you say "maybe you were". Odeon knows his mind.....but maybe he is lying.
I think that a case of correlation can certainly be made between double the fun to clean up a troll's handiwork with Scrap "counter trolling" but a weaker one would be Odeon's vindictiveness (for that we would have to assume Odeon WAS driven to vindictiveness from a post of Scrap's). Neither is necessarily a causality. I know what I would hang my hat on.
As for callouts  on Odeon is great to watch in a callout. Not much fun arguing against in one. Hard work really. That said, I think he ought to be subject to the "privilege of being able to be able to make callouts or have them made on him

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 12:41:51 PM »
Sure.  It still doesn't answer the questions:
Was scrap given the opportunity to cease and desist?
If not, why now?

Until those two are clarified then the 'you mad brah'  claim is valid.
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Online Al Swearengen

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2013, 12:47:28 PM »
Sure.  It still doesn't answer the questions:
Was scrap given the opportunity to cease and desist?
If not, why now?

Until those two are clarified then the 'you mad brah'  claim is valid.

I don't think he was. From the sounds of it (I may be wrong) doesn't make Odeon was cleaning up two lots of spamming and the fact that one of them was a sockpuppet account of Scrap's that was past its used by date was not something to give him second thoughts. That is my understanding. That doesn't make a claim to butthurt one way or another

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2013, 12:52:34 PM »
As a long time member, respected or not, should scrap be afforded a bit more consideration than was given?
Odeon said himself that he knew of the sock, and scrap used it the same way in the past.

Why now?  Why not send scrap a pm asking him to stop while he cleaned up?

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Online Al Swearengen

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2013, 01:09:21 PM »
As a long time member, respected or not, should scrap be afforded a bit more consideration than was given?
Odeon said himself that he knew of the sock, and scrap used it the same way in the past.

Why now?  Why not send scrap a pm asking him to stop while he cleaned up?

I am on going on what Odeon says (and knowing the kind of big red letter spamming) that when scrap joined in with this too, it was the straw that broke the camels back and that Scrap had been an obvious exception to an enforced rule.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2013, 01:17:39 PM »
Based on that logic, and I know this is just conjecture....
Scrap was right, he was grandfathered in.
Odeons words do matter.
And still:
As a long term member was scrap asked to stop?
Why now?

I have stated that I don't are to have a sock account myself.  But obviously it is important to scrap.
I'm just a freedom loving guy trying to figure this out.  And as an adult I think it's lame how dismissive odeon is acting.  Scrap, or any member deserves more.
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Online Al Swearengen

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Re: Scrap, get your arse over here!
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2013, 01:29:13 PM »
Based on that logic, and I know this is just conjecture....
Scrap was right, he was grandfathered in.
Odeons words do matter.
And still:
As a long term member was scrap asked to stop?
Why now?

I have stated that I don't are to have a sock account myself.  But obviously it is important to scrap.
I'm just a freedom loving guy trying to figure this out.  And as an adult I think it's lame how dismissive odeon is acting.  Scrap, or any member deserves more.

I have no real investment in things BUT if what we are saying is that Scrap evading a previously established and enforced sockpuppet ban equals grandfathering in? I don't think so.
If we are saying that he ought to be an exception to the rules and get other benefits the rest of us rabble? I don't think so.
If we are saying that his using the sockpuppet gives benefit to the forum and is any more than textual masturbation for Scrap? I don't think so.

But then it is about whether in this instance Scrap gets his way and why? i think that if the only counterpoint is that maybe Odeon was butthurt and maybe scrap is emotionally attached to a sockpuppet...well i think there may be bigger issues to concentrate on?


EDIT: Possibly badly put. I do not think it not worth asking but I think that the reasoning in countering sounds valid and bears well under scrutiny. If after the back and forth we are down to these two points that maybe Scrap is too attached to a sock and maybe Odeon WAS butthurt as well, then I think there is really not a lot in it.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:36:59 PM by Al Swearengen »