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Author Topic: These guys are BRAVE!  (Read 2812 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2010, 02:54:58 PM »
If you've been bullied by one carpenter, must all carpenters die?

The carpenter concept isn't fundamentally wrong like the cop concept. Carpenters don't oppress people for a living.

Nor do policemen.

Do you mind explaining to the class, who the GeStaPo were??  ::)

You have to understand that there's such a thing as political laws. Any state who passes and enforces political laws is in the business of oppressing their people.

Do you mind explaining to the class how The Third Reich came to power, and why Gestapo should not be compared to just any police force in any garden-variety democracy? ::)

You have to understand that the NDSAP and The Third Reich did not appear from nowhere, in the middle of a stable democracy. Yes, I know, this is teh interwebs and anyone is likely to be called a nazi before long, but still...
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2010, 02:56:59 PM »
This is interesting btw, speaking of the legitimacy of the state. It's a dialogue between Göring and an American psychologist in Nuremberg:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Göring knew how things work.

Yes. He did know. That's pretty much how they did it in the 20s and the 30s. Others have tried it since but none so successfully as the NDSAP.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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TheoK

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2010, 03:06:02 PM »
This is interesting btw, speaking of the legitimacy of the state. It's a dialogue between Göring and an American psychologist in Nuremberg:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Göring knew how things work.

Yes. He did know. That's pretty much how they did it in the 20s and the 30s. Others have tried it since but none so successfully as the NDSAP.

His point is that it's not that a big difference between Nazi Germany and a "democracy". The guys in the seat of the status quo machine fuck the people over anyway.

Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2010, 03:07:11 PM »
This is interesting btw, speaking of the legitimacy of the state. It's a dialogue between Göring and an American psychologist in Nuremberg:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Göring knew how things work.

Yes. He did know. That's pretty much how they did it in the 20s and the 30s. Others have tried it since but none so successfully as the NDSAP.

His point is that it's not that a big difference between Nazi Germany and a "democracy". The guys in the seat of the status quo machine fuck the people over anyway.

I understood his point. My point, however, is that what they did is not easily reproducible.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

TheoK

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2010, 03:10:06 PM »
This is interesting btw, speaking of the legitimacy of the state. It's a dialogue between Göring and an American psychologist in Nuremberg:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Göring knew how things work.

Yes. He did know. That's pretty much how they did it in the 20s and the 30s. Others have tried it since but none so successfully as the NDSAP.

His point is that it's not that a big difference between Nazi Germany and a "democracy". The guys in the seat of the status quo machine fuck the people over anyway.

I understood his point. My point, however, is that what they did is not easily reproducible.

There will most probably be no Fourth Reich in the foreseeable future, no. Though there will be a fascist state "light" version with an ever more powerless population.

Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2010, 03:12:52 PM »
Lots of those around, even now.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

TheoK

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2010, 03:16:41 PM »
The real fascists are already in charge, though they don't call themselves fascists, of course.  :(

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2010, 05:18:22 PM »
Nor do policemen.

Do you mind explaining to the class, who the GeStaPo were??  ::)

You have to understand that there's such a thing as political laws. Any state who passes and enforces political laws is in the business of oppressing their people.

Do you mind explaining to the class how The Third Reich came to power, and why Gestapo should not be compared to just any police force in any garden-variety democracy? ::)

You have to understand that the NDSAP and The Third Reich did not appear from nowhere, in the middle of a stable democracy. Yes, I know, this is teh interwebs and anyone is likely to be called a nazi before long, but still...

As I said in a previous post, the Nazis had the wisdom to create a seperate police force for the enforcement of political laws. This backfired for them, because when the allied armies came into Germany, they knew who to arrest. They left the Orpo and Kripo in place, and arrested members of the GeStaPo.

Modern governments learned their lesson from this. If immoral, political laws are enforced by cops, who are otherwise doing a legitimate job, then the line between legitimate law enforcement and oppression gets blurred. The 2 famous examples of this in the U.S. are the Ruby Ridge incident, and the Waco, Texas incident. In the first case, Randy Weaver had his family gunned down, in cold blood, for failure to appear in court, over charges that ended up being droped because the government broke the law and entraped Randy Weaver. I won't get into the complexities of what happened at Waco, but you get the point.

It's very easy for cops to cross the line and become criminal thugs.

Osensitive1

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2010, 05:29:40 PM »
It's very easy for cops to cross the line and become criminal thugs.
The ones who do should be killed by criminal thugs, and round and round.

TheoK

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2010, 01:52:31 AM »
Nor do policemen.

Do you mind explaining to the class, who the GeStaPo were??  ::)

You have to understand that there's such a thing as political laws. Any state who passes and enforces political laws is in the business of oppressing their people.

Do you mind explaining to the class how The Third Reich came to power, and why Gestapo should not be compared to just any police force in any garden-variety democracy? ::)

You have to understand that the NDSAP and The Third Reich did not appear from nowhere, in the middle of a stable democracy. Yes, I know, this is teh interwebs and anyone is likely to be called a nazi before long, but still...

As I said in a previous post, the Nazis had the wisdom to create a seperate police force for the enforcement of political laws. This backfired for them, because when the allied armies came into Germany, they knew who to arrest. They left the Orpo and Kripo in place, and arrested members of the GeStaPo.

Modern governments learned their lesson from this. If immoral, political laws are enforced by cops, who are otherwise doing a legitimate job, then the line between legitimate law enforcement and oppression gets blurred. The 2 famous examples of this in the U.S. are the Ruby Ridge incident, and the Waco, Texas incident. In the first case, Randy Weaver had his family gunned down, in cold blood, for failure to appear in court, over charges that ended up being droped because the government broke the law and entraped Randy Weaver. I won't get into the complexities of what happened at Waco, but you get the point.

It's very easy for cops to cross the line and become criminal thugs.

Waco is a perfect example of why guns should be free and unlicensed. They lost in the end, but they held out against the federal pigs for 51 days and killed 4 of them on the very first day of the siege. That means 4 federal pigs will never more commit a crime unpunishedly against American citizens who have done no harm.

In most of Europe a group of civilians would never be able to hold out against criminal authorities in a 51 day siege, simply because it would be nearly impossible to get that many heavy guns. In Sweden not even the mafia can get hold of that many machine guns, except the biggest mafia of them all, the state. It has as many machine guns as it wants.

If you own guns legally in Sweden, the cops can come and take them without an order from a judge or prosecutor. You don't even need to be suspected of a crime. There was a man here who protested against the building of a motorway over his property, perfectly legallly, in court. In the end he lost, and the pigs came and took his guns on the day he was about to leave his property. He hadn't made any threats or anything, they took his guns just because he had stood up for his rights in a perfectly legal way. He got them back later, but taking his guns when he had done nothing wrong is a crime in my humble opinion.

No Swedish gun owner organisation said one single word about that. They don't defend gun owners at all, they in principle do anything the state tells them to do, "so we may keep our licenses". See now why I call Swedes "cowards" that often?

If you stand up for your rights strongly enough in Sweden, and I mean in a perfectly legal way, but standing up for them with real emphasis, the authorities will inofficially classify you as a rättshaverist. You become an outlaw, not by own choice but the authorities make you an outlaw, because they will henceforth turn down any legal complaint and appeal you make, how objectively justified it might be. That's a crime on the behalf of the authorities, of course, called grovt tjänstefel or in English "gross misconduct of duty", though an authority person will never go to jail for that crime with less than s/he commits it against the state. In theory they could go to jail for committing it to anyone but in practice that won't happen. Those bureaucrats think they're God, when in reality they're moralically lower than dogshit.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 02:40:53 AM by TheoK »

Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2010, 11:26:16 AM »
Nor do policemen.

Do you mind explaining to the class, who the GeStaPo were??  ::)

You have to understand that there's such a thing as political laws. Any state who passes and enforces political laws is in the business of oppressing their people.

Do you mind explaining to the class how The Third Reich came to power, and why Gestapo should not be compared to just any police force in any garden-variety democracy? ::)

You have to understand that the NDSAP and The Third Reich did not appear from nowhere, in the middle of a stable democracy. Yes, I know, this is teh interwebs and anyone is likely to be called a nazi before long, but still...

As I said in a previous post, the Nazis had the wisdom to create a seperate police force for the enforcement of political laws. This backfired for them, because when the allied armies came into Germany, they knew who to arrest. They left the Orpo and Kripo in place, and arrested members of the GeStaPo.

They went too far but the basic idea was sound from their POV.

Quote
Modern governments learned their lesson from this. If immoral, political laws are enforced by cops, who are otherwise doing a legitimate job, then the line between legitimate law enforcement and oppression gets blurred. The 2 famous examples of this in the U.S. are the Ruby Ridge incident, and the Waco, Texas incident. In the first case, Randy Weaver had his family gunned down, in cold blood, for failure to appear in court, over charges that ended up being droped because the government broke the law and entraped Randy Weaver. I won't get into the complexities of what happened at Waco, but you get the point.

Oh yes, I do get the point.


Quote
It's very easy for cops to cross the line and become criminal thugs.

Indeed. Thankfully it's more rare these days, and definitely so in most western democracies (with some notable exceptions).
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2010, 11:28:27 AM »
If you stand up for your rights strongly enough in Sweden, and I mean in a perfectly legal way, but standing up for them with real emphasis, the authorities will inofficially classify you as a rättshaverist. You become an outlaw, not by own choice but the authorities make you an outlaw, because they will henceforth turn down any legal complaint and appeal you make, how objectively justified it might be. That's a crime on the behalf of the authorities, of course, called grovt tjänstefel or in English "gross misconduct of duty", though an authority person will never go to jail for that crime with less than s/he commits it against the state. In theory they could go to jail for committing it to anyone but in practice that won't happen. Those bureaucrats think they're God, when in reality they're moralically lower than dogshit.

In your opinion. Now, I know that your experiences vary from mine but you're expressing opinions, not facts.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

TheoK

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2010, 11:50:04 AM »
If you stand up for your rights strongly enough in Sweden, and I mean in a perfectly legal way, but standing up for them with real emphasis, the authorities will inofficially classify you as a rättshaverist. You become an outlaw, not by own choice but the authorities make you an outlaw, because they will henceforth turn down any legal complaint and appeal you make, how objectively justified it might be. That's a crime on the behalf of the authorities, of course, called grovt tjänstefel or in English "gross misconduct of duty", though an authority person will never go to jail for that crime with less than s/he commits it against the state. In theory they could go to jail for committing it to anyone but in practice that won't happen. Those bureaucrats think they're God, when in reality they're moralically lower than dogshit.

In your opinion. Now, I know that your experiences vary from mine but you're expressing opinions, not facts.

It's very interesting that Swedish as only language in the world has a completely own word for someone claiming his rights with emphasis, and that "haverist" actually sounds like someone searching havoc, while the German Rechtshaberei for example means "having right". The Swedish word is purposely pejorative.

Offline odeon

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2010, 11:54:34 AM »
So?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Scrapheap

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Re: These guys are BRAVE!
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2010, 12:06:30 PM »
So?

"Grammar is essence" - Ludwig Wittgenstein

Language is based on cultural concepts. Therefore Swedes have unique cultural concepts that don't exist in the rest of Western Civilization.