Author Topic: Why can't men's rights advocates do their thing without opposition to feminists?  (Read 717 times)

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Offline RageBeoulve

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I see things I like about MGTOW and things I like about MRA's. I see relevance in both movements. I also see stuff in there that I do not agree with.
My position? I am anti-Feminist. That's it. I do not hate women. I do not even hate all people that call themselves or define themselves as Feminists. To me it is like someone saying that they believe in conspiracy theories like hollow-earth theory. It certainly doesn't lend further credibility to the person and it does not mean that everything they think is stupid. However, it is not something to live up to but rather live down.

Now some may say "Well my believe in Feminism is really just "a,b,c": in which case I will look at that "interpretation" completely divorced from what Feminism is and does. I do not give a damn about the true radicals. Nor about the equity Feminists (You know, I just think that men and women should be equal - yup don't we all - doesn't make you a Feminist for thinking so). The radicals are of no consequence ....except for the fact that bit by bit the less radical positions are see over time as moderate. It is the moderates that are the problem. The ones with their fingers in the pies and the victim politicking and oppression narratives firing. Not the kill 90% of males and keep the rest for breeding or ALL sex is rape, these people are of no consequence and only exist to make the crackpots like Rebecca Watson and Anita Sarkeesian (that otherwise would be view as crazed radicals themselves) as moderates.

I guess we see things about the same, then. I guess one could say that I -am- an antifeminist then, but I am not an activist. At least not how the current consciousness defines "activism".
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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I don't like the term anti-feminist because feminism covers such a wide spectrum of beliefs.

I'm only anti hypocrisy and stupidity.

Offline RageBeoulve

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I used to say that, but the institution of feminism can't be ignored in it's current majority of effect. I really can't see a use for it at this point.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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I used to say that, but the institution of feminism can't be ignored in it's current majority of effect. I really can't see a use for it at this point.

Neither you nor I are the ones who get to determine that. I think we'll always need the equity feminists to keep MRA movements honest.

I view the genders as needing ballance in the yin & yang sense. 

Offline RageBeoulve

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Ehh. I'd much rather throw all of it in the trash.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Al Swearegen

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Equity Feminists are not Feminists in the same sense that the Feminists that affect social change and inform social commentary are Feminists.
Equity Feminists are Humanist that simply choose to apply the term of Feminist to their Humanism.
Equity Feminists are of no consequence in the Feminist culture other than to paster a reasonable face to what is a poisonous ideology filled with dishonest narratives.
Equity Feminists are of no consequence to MRAs. Not because they would not support MRAs want of gender equality (I am sure there is considerable common ground) but simply they are of no effect in the Feminist circles and that the moment they support ANY individual or ideology that does not go with their powerful "moderate" Feminist "sisters and brothers" they will be rounded on and sent packing.

Equity Feminists are LESS listened to than the crazy radical Feminists.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline RageBeoulve

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"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Hannah

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eh I have no idea...I'm not a feminist for one because of it's roots...look them up...secondly, they do not even know what they stand for any longer...end of :headhurts:

Offline Al Swearegen

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Without causing undue offence Hannah (I know unlike probably most on here, you are religious...and if it makes you feel better, so are my children) Feminism is a dogmatic ideology, and religion is too.
The relevance to this is precisely that if someone says that they are Feminist, what have they told you?
If someone tells you that they are religious, what have they told you?

You see the problem here. You know some of the general elements but have no idea what aspects of the ideology inform their life. Ar they nice or nasty? Are they righteous or humble? Are they happy to condemn those not like them or are they tolerant?

Personally I see both as poisonous ideologies and that both ideologies require an amount of ignoring or downplaying of many aspects of the ideology to get to a place where it is not harmful to both the individual or others the individual may interact with.

Many people who are Feminist think that by vouching their belief in this ideology "I am a Feminist", others will suddenly rise in expectation or raise their social standing. I ca only say that for me, it does rather the opposite. I am instantly on guard and suspicious (and in want of clarification).

The same with religious people. As I said my kids are religious. I even drop my daughter off to church. But her faith is a gentle sort of belief system. Not intolerant and not exclusionary, nor bigoted. Hers is not about Damnation or being inherently worthless or a righteous charge. Hers is uplifting, open and friendly.

The same applies to Feminism. If someone believes superficially in feminism as a want for men and women to be the equal, fine Or even as a want for men and women to be equal, AND a want to see all inroads into establishing equal rights, as NOT a natural effect of modernisation and more stable societies, but of women pushing back...Okay. That is fine. But the further you take this along the more pointed and exclusionary and bigoted and subject to very harmful interpretations.

Now I still think that believing in a God and miracles and so on, is quaint and a bit silly, but I understand my experience is not others. I do not begrudge my daughter or anyone else for believing in what they want BUT I sure as Hell do not think that religious belief or Feminist belief is something that ought to be seen as the moral high road nor that all Feminist belief or Religious belief ought to be accepted as decent, acceptable, rational, constructive and good for society.

We ought to, as a society got past the stage where people automatically give credence to someone because they are a Reverend or a Feminist Critic or whatever. People ought to be valued on what they think, not what title or job description they identify with.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Jack

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We ought to, as a society got past the stage where people automatically give credence to someone because they are a Reverend or a Feminist Critic or whatever. People ought to be valued on what they think, not what title or job description they identify with.
Some people in certain positions and with certain belief sets should be suspect, regardless of what they might claim to what think. Heck, even David Duke makes public statements against terrorist actions and claims to not be racist; says all the right things when needed. Lots of people do it, and those in positions of leadership within politics and religion are more likely to. Am more impressed by what people actually do.

Hannah

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You are correct Al!  :plus: It is an individual thing...I don't attempt to be 'dogmatic' if it came across as such sorry about that... :nerdy: For many it is religion...For myself it is very individual relationship wise not religion wise...It is a relationship with the creator God, many can't understand...some don't want to understand, I get it...

I get folks not understanding for I myself wrestled with my own faith for a long while until two years ago and sense it has been gently defined in a way that I cannot put into words...I feel as though you'd be fascinating to sit down with and have coffee and discuss ideas...

Religion is death to me, religion kicked me out of several congregations, religion was something constrictive and in the end almost killed me...a relationship with a God on the other hand who is misunderstood is something that I can relate to and someone I can bank on...

Offline Al Swearegen

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Just letting you now, Hannah, I do not know much about your religious beliefs apart from the fact that they were seeming to be similar to an ex AFF poster called "GuessWho". The midwest fire and brimstone kind of old testament fundamental religion.
Your experience with religion is very different t mine. I grew up without religion or religious influence. For most of my life I could not have told you what people do in church or who around me was religious and certainly not what denomination. I am sure your life experience about yourself and the society you were raised in was very different.

I was not trying to make any specific references about you or your beliefs.

My want was to underline the similarities in dogmatic belief structures (religion and Feminism). Being "religious" and being "feminist" i not necessarily bad or necessarily good. A Feminist or a religious person may be good bad or indifferent, so it is foolhardy to give unwarranted credit to anyone for holding a broad belief like Feminism or religion. Actions speak louder than words. You CAN be a very good person and still be Feminist. You CAN be a good person and be a Feminist. I rather think that to be so will be DESPITE your beliefs. But it is not to say it is impossible
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline El

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Equity Feminists are LESS listened to than the crazy radical Feminists.
They sure seem to be on here in this type of discussion.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Equity Feminists are LESS listened to than the crazy radical Feminists.
They sure seem to be on here in this type of discussion.

You may misunderstand me.

I do not think that the Equity Feminists are listened to in the mainstream or with the Feminists that drive social policy and changes. That is where it matters.
Does it matter in this little forum? No, but you would be right. A radical or moderate Feminist would not get listened to pushing their various narratives. An Equity Feminist would be VERY listened to. For example, I am Anti-Feminist BUT I want my son and daughter to have the very best out of life and be treated with equal respect and consideration. It is a humanist approach NOT a Feminist approach. It is that of a caring Dad.
See the difference?
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap