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Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Peter on June 20, 2007, 03:58:41 PM

Title: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Peter on June 20, 2007, 03:58:41 PM
It all looked so promising.  The US had mastered the atom and nuked Japan into submission.  The hard sciences were widely respected and scientists revered.  The old days of witch-burning seemed a thing of the past as the US embraced scientific endeavour as never before.

60 years on, we have this:

Quote from: http://templeofpolemic.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=theo&action=print&thread=1130126466
Welcome to Idiot America.

LET'S TAKE A TOUR, shall we? For the sake of time, we'll just cover the last year or so. A federally funded abstinence program suggests that HIV can be transmitted through tears. An Alabama legislator proposes a bill to ban all books by gay authors. The Texas House passes a bill banning suggestive cheerleading. And nobody laughs at any of it, or even points out that, in the latter case, having Texas ban suggestive cheerleading is like having Nebraska ban corn. James Dobson, a prominent conservative Christian spokesman, compares the Supreme Court to the Ku Klux Klan. Pat Robertson, another prominent conservative preacher, says that federal judges are a more serious threat to the country than is Al Qaeda and, apparently taking his text from the Book of Gambino, later sermonizes that the United States should get with it and snuff the democratically elected president of Venezuela.

The Congress of the United States intervenes to extend into a televised spectacle the prolonged death of a woman in Florida. The majority leader of the Senate, a physician, pronounces a diagnosis based on heavily edited videotape. The majority leader of the House of Representatives argues against cutting-edge research into the use of human stem cells by saying that "an embryo is a person. . . . We were all at one time embryos ourselves. So was Abraham. So was Muhammad. So was Jesus of Nazareth." Nobody laughs at him or points out that the same could be said of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or whoever invented the baby-back rib.

And, finally, in August, the cover of Time —for almost a century the dyspeptic voice of the American establishment—clears its throat, hems and haws and hacks like a headmaster gagging on his sherry, and asks, quite seriously: "Does God have a place in science class?"

Fights over evolution—and its faddish new camouflage, intelligent design, a pseudoscience that posits without proof or method that science is inadequate to explain existence and that supernatural causes must be considered—roil up school districts across the country. The president of the United States announces that he believes ID ought to be taught in the public schools on an equal footing with the theory of evolution. And in Dover, Pennsylvania, during one of these many controversies, a pastor named Ray Mummert delivers the line that both ends our tour and, in every real sense, sums it up:

"We've been attacked," he says, "by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

What happened?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Lucifer on June 20, 2007, 04:13:09 PM
people stopped thinking for themselves, stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and turned into the "me me me!" culture.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: drewtheyellow on June 20, 2007, 04:51:42 PM
I dunno, what did happen? I don't see anything particularly unusual in what you mention there, at least, not in the context of the US. I mean, how were these things EVER a thing of the past in the first place from your view? Certainly we had atoms for peace, but evolution has been controversial in states for the longest time, the issue didn't mysteriously pop up out of nowhere. Heck, we currently have less church in our schools than we have had historically as I remember talking to this one old dude and he said that they used to have bible studies in school. As well, the distrust of the supreme court doesn't seem unusual for a person in Mr. Dobson's position, really though, given that we have traditionally thought that banks were the greatest of all evils and more threatening then outside forces, I would not see how a distrust of a supreme court for supposed activism would really dissent from that kind of tradition. As well, we have snuffed political leaders across the world during the Cold War, snuffing Chavez, although not something I support, isn't something I see as unusual in our history. The issue of Congress? Well, consider Eisenhower putting "under God" into the pledge and consider McCarthy calling communism Godless as part of his campaign. Heck, G H W Bush once even remarked that atheists couldn't be considered patriots even. Really,  nothing you state seems to be some incredibly new development and thus I cannot see the issue you see.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Dexter Morgan on June 20, 2007, 11:42:52 PM
Quote
I remember talking to this one old dude and he said that they used to have bible studies in school.
We had it in my school, although it was privately funded.  We also had prayers before every hs football game.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Nomaken on June 21, 2007, 04:18:19 AM
Our richness being funneled into idiotic things by people who with totally good intentions want to use our wealth to help the less fortunate.  Our wealth created dumb, incapable people who do not fully grasp the harsh serious reality we live in, and our wealth allows us to draw our focus away from what really matters to what is exciting.  I am not blaming the rich, rather I am saying that this is probably the ultimate result of countries when they get wealthy enough.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on June 21, 2007, 05:47:55 AM
people stopped thinking for themselves, stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and turned into the "me me me!" culture.
when government legislates common sense and they also tell you how to be a parent.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on June 27, 2007, 04:46:18 PM
people stopped thinking for themselves, stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and turned into the "me me me!" culture.

But why?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on June 27, 2007, 05:07:12 PM
people stopped thinking for themselves, stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and turned into the "me me me!" culture.

But why?
nixon beat the hippies into submission.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on June 27, 2007, 05:36:38 PM
people stopped thinking for themselves, stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and turned into the "me me me!" culture.

But why?
nixon beat the hippies into submission.
but you would have thought that nixon's downfall would have renewed their confidence.
but then we had the nothingness of ford, then the fake peace of carter (pacifier), and finally reagan taught them how to consume.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on June 27, 2007, 10:08:43 PM
I just finished a book written in the 50s that was basically bitching about how people are obsessed with conformity and don't think for themselves like they used to. I guess whenever you are, people just don't act like they "used to."
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on June 27, 2007, 10:57:48 PM
I just finished a book written in the 50s that was basically bitching about how people are obsessed with conformity and don't think for themselves like they used to. I guess whenever you are, people just don't act like they "used to."
what is the name of the book?

i guess that we are all just followers.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on June 27, 2007, 11:01:02 PM
The One Dimensional Man by Herbert Marcuse. I didn't mean to imply that it was a bad book, actually, it's probably my favorite nonfiction that I can remember reading.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on June 27, 2007, 11:06:14 PM
no.
i was making a comment about what you wrote: people in the fifties thought that everybody was conforming.
i thought that was a new problem.

peraps we are all just seeing life, as we age, in the mirror.  and it is really us who is conforming.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on June 27, 2007, 11:12:38 PM
people stopped thinking for themselves, stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and turned into the "me me me!" culture.

But why?

Because those who did couldn't be
understood any longer.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on June 27, 2007, 11:15:47 PM
no.
i was making a comment about what you wrote: people in the fifties thought that everybody was conforming.
i thought that was a new problem.

peraps we are all just seeing life, as we age, in the mirror.  and it is really us who is conforming.

To an extent, yeah. I think maybe I'm oversimplifying the book. I'm not sure exactly how to explain other than that, without using a few paragraphs, and I haven't the motivation for that.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Vortex_13 on June 30, 2007, 12:14:10 AM
I'm of the opinion that the problem with America at this time is that we don't have the balls to be hardcore bastards nor the sense to be diplomatic. So we are stuck waffling in the middle getting nothing done.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on June 30, 2007, 12:18:29 PM
I'm of the opinion that the problem with America at this time is that we don't have the balls to be hardcore bastards nor the sense to be diplomatic. So we are stuck waffling in the middle getting nothing done.
just like our politicians.

the publics want moderates.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Dexter Morgan on June 30, 2007, 01:03:08 PM
We've always had this BS.  It was just that the Soviet Union sucked even more than we did so we weren't the main target.  Maybe when China gains more influence, people will stop screaming at us.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Nomaken on July 11, 2007, 07:19:15 AM
Why is there a sense that america screwed up in the first place?  The idea that we were a thriving hero for the entire world, a shining example of how a society should be run has always been just an idea we came up with or were fed to by allies symapthetic to our way of life or interested in our preference. 

What specifically are you(peter) suggesting we have lost or started doing wrong, that we weren't doing before?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on July 11, 2007, 07:55:02 AM
the decline of the middle class.  harder to achieve the american dream....own a home or start a business.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Nomaken on July 11, 2007, 08:11:16 AM
In that case we didn't screw up, we just didn't enact policies necessary to cause a middle class to flourish or keep it relatively easy for new people to enter the national economy with ease as we once did.  Our system has always been designed to make the rich richer and the sufficiently poor poorer, it is just that we've gotten to a point where enough wealth is distributed among a few enough individuals so that they can control too significantly peoples ability to achieve the american dream or allow the poor and middle class to climb the ladder.

If a few enough people control enough of the wealth they can influence how easy it is for the rest of the pariticipants in the economy to achieve the american dream, and since there are only so many luxuries to go around there is actually not enough of them to give to the people under them per such-and-such period of time.  Also, if enough of the money is controlled by few enough people they can simply control how much wealth gets distributed to classes lower than them.

This was not an evil design or anything, it is just that for the last several hundred years, that is how our economy works.  It worked before because the wealth was more evenly distrobuted and we had fewer people, and it has worked for us up to and including now, but it is becoming more and more obvious that the rich have too much power and there isnt enough to go around for the rest.

Basically a few select lines of people started first, they've been accumulating wealth and they are now in control.  This was caused simply by them starting first.  Our economy didn't screw up, it was designed in an unsustainable way in the first place.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on July 11, 2007, 08:16:29 AM
enacting all the laws that we have which favor big business like: insurance companies and bankers.that hasn't helped the middle class very much.
favoring the rich has killed the middle class.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 11, 2007, 08:31:10 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 11, 2007, 08:31:57 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

 :laugh: +
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Peter on July 11, 2007, 08:39:24 AM
Why is there a sense that america screwed up in the first place?  The idea that we were a thriving hero for the entire world, a shining example of how a society should be run has always been just an idea we came up with or were fed to by allies symapthetic to our way of life or interested in our preference. 

What specifically are you(peter) suggesting we have lost or started doing wrong, that we weren't doing before?

My point was that the US used to be at the forefront of scientific advancement and attracted the finest minds in the world, but seems to be increasingly slipping into anti-intellectualism and superstition, or at least to be falling behind the rest of the developed world, and has become the laughing stock of the developed world on issues like creationism.  America used to be the place to be if you were a top-end scientist, but now it's the place where your research will be ignored (http://www.aaup.org/AAUP/pubsres/academe/2004/JA/NB/ScienBush.htm) if it's politically inconvenient and where you'll be treated like a terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_C._Butler) if you work on certain sensitive areas.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 11, 2007, 08:50:41 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 11, 2007, 08:56:33 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Really, i thought the lone ranger invented the internet in the early frontier days after deciding he was too ugly to be seen without a mask and decided to talk about how fabolous an individual he was over the net? I was born and bread in Scotland and yes we are still in a Union with England due to weak politicians. I'm second-generation Irish though and they stopped being Englands bitch in the early part of the last century.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 11, 2007, 09:07:04 AM
Really, i thought the lone ranger invented the internet in the early frontier days after deciding he was too ugly to be seen without a mask and decided to talk about how fabolous an individual he was over the net? I was born and bread in Scotland and yes we are still in a Union with England due to weak politicians. I'm second-generation Irish though and they stopped being Englands bitch in the early part of the last century.

The internet is mostly an American invention.

50% Irish, my dad is full blooded Irish actually.   Mother is English (direct relative to the only Revolutionary War soldier buried in FL), Polish, and German. 

Union with England is a nice way of putting it.   At least Canadians can make decisions without asking Britian if it is ok since the 1980s. 
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 11, 2007, 09:13:56 AM

The internet is mostly an American invention.

50% Irish, my dad is full blooded Irish actually.   Mother is English (direct relative to the only Revolutionary War soldier buried in FL), Polish, and German. 

Union with England is a nice way of putting it.   At least Canadians can make decisions without asking Britian if it is ok since the 1980s. 

With an elected SNP government we could see a referendum on independance within the next few years. Doesnt Israel call the shots with the US?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 11, 2007, 09:42:38 AM
With an elected SNP government we could see a referendum on independance within the next few years. Doesnt Israel call the shots with the US?

No, but the only reason Israel exists is due to Britian allowing it to happen.   That land was actually controlled by the Brits, they moved the Jews back into Israel.   The US is an ally with Israel only because it seems we are afraid of them being overtaken by Islamic nations.   Maybe they just want to still be able to make a trip to see where Jesus lived.   I really don't care either way what happens to Israel.   It is just land afterall and the temple of Solomon is no longer there, hence the wailing wall. 
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 11, 2007, 09:51:50 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Really, i thought the lone ranger invented the internet in the early frontier days after deciding he was too ugly to be seen without a mask and decided to talk about how fabolous an individual he was over the net? I was born and bread in Scotland and yes we are still in a Union with England due to weak politicians. I'm second-generation Irish though and they stopped being Englands bitch in the early part of the last century.

So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 11, 2007, 10:02:19 AM
So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" lol

Might makes right?   England was the most powerful nation in the world due to its navy for quite some time.   They did their fair share of good and bad.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 11, 2007, 10:09:25 AM
So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" lol

Might makes right?   England was the most powerful nation in the world due to its navy for quite some time.   They did their fair share of good and bad.

Like all nations. I fail to see why the Scots have to view us as something unredeemably vile when we're not. Blame Braveheart and Mel Gibson's manboobs.

The Scottish people generate some of the most influential figures in the union, and yet they still winge that they receive bad treatment and are treated like second-class citizens.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 11, 2007, 10:14:14 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Really, i thought the lone ranger invented the internet in the early frontier days after deciding he was too ugly to be seen without a mask and decided to talk about how fabolous an individual he was over the net? I was born and bread in Scotland and yes we are still in a Union with England due to weak politicians. I'm second-generation Irish though and they stopped being Englands bitch in the early part of the last century.

So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

Who said anything about England being evil apart from you? Try and keep up, little girl.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 11, 2007, 10:16:03 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Really, i thought the lone ranger invented the internet in the early frontier days after deciding he was too ugly to be seen without a mask and decided to talk about how fabolous an individual he was over the net? I was born and bread in Scotland and yes we are still in a Union with England due to weak politicians. I'm second-generation Irish though and they stopped being Englands bitch in the early part of the last century.

So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

Who said anything about England being evil apart from you? Try and keep up, little girl.

All I did was I highlighted the ridiculousness of your pathetic zeal.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 11, 2007, 10:16:15 AM
So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" lol

Might makes right?   England was the most powerful nation in the world due to its navy for quite some time.   They did their fair share of good and bad.

Like all nations. I fail to see why the Scots have to view us as something unredeemably vile when we're not. Blame Braveheart and Mel Gibson's manboobs.

The Scottish people generate some of the most influential figures in the union, and yet they still winge that they receive bad treatment and are treated like second-class citizens.

I dont respect self-interested Scots who benefited out of this Union of the rich to shit on the poor anymore than i respect English people trying to take over the world and plundering other nations at the same time.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 11, 2007, 10:17:56 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Really, i thought the lone ranger invented the internet in the early frontier days after deciding he was too ugly to be seen without a mask and decided to talk about how fabolous an individual he was over the net? I was born and bread in Scotland and yes we are still in a Union with England due to weak politicians. I'm second-generation Irish though and they stopped being Englands bitch in the early part of the last century.

So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

Who said anything about England being evil apart from you? Try and keep up, little girl.

All I did was I highlighted the ridiculousness of your pathetic zeal.

Tell me what was zealous in the posts you've highlighted? Someone seems to be pissed off that they wont be able to order us around any longer. Never mind, there's still the falklands.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 11, 2007, 03:15:30 PM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Ahem, might I suggest that importing slaves also helped build your nation.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 12, 2007, 12:29:33 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Ahem, might I suggest that importing slaves also helped build your nation.

Several countries did that actually.  The US was not the first, but hopefully the last.   The US was still an English colony when they started importing slaves here.   The other Euro colonies did the same thing, since they almost killed off all the natives they enslaved in Haiti and Jamaica for example.   Almost if not all of our significant inventors were not slaves.   We benefited initially before the Industrial Revolution from slavery, except the South still wanted it because they were still relying on agriculture.   America at its most powerful was after WW2, when there was no slavery.   Any slaves imported into Austrailia at all?   At least you seem to have treated the natives better there.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 12, 2007, 12:34:16 AM
In 1807, Britain became the first European nation to ban slavery. However, since Spain and Portugal did not follow the same rule. African slaves continued to be sent to countries in South America until near the end of the 19th century. Britain attempted to stop slave trade by trying to intercept the ships with war ships (off the west coast of Africa). When successfully intercepted the Africans were shipped back to Africa in the areas of Liberia ("Liberty") and Sierra Leone (Freetown) in West Africa, which was established by US and Britain anti-slavers as haven for freed slaves.

But the end still was yet to come, because in spite of the efforts to end slave trade slavery continued to be practiced in the Americas. The British freed slaves in the Caribbean colonies in 1883. Then the French abolished slavery in the American colonies soon afterwards. Slavery was not abolished in the US until 1864. Cuba and Brazil were the last countries in the Americas to abolish the practice of slavery in the late 19th century.
Quote

Taken from

http://www.allfreeessays.com/student/Slavery_and_the_History.html

Seems correct date wise from what I remember.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 12, 2007, 03:24:34 AM
About the time they started chucking long estabilished peaceful indians off of their fertile land and allowing pig-ignorant fat gas-guzzling war-mongering childish celebrity obsessed morons like catkiller and calendale not only exist but allow them access to the internet when in any other less backwards society their weak genes would have been flushed out long before they even came into existence.

Well they started chucking "peaceful" native americans off their land LONG before cars and the internet were invented.   Those weak genes sure did quite a bit in 200 years of being a nation.   Where are you from?   I bet your nation is still England's bitch.

Ahem, might I suggest that importing slaves also helped build your nation.

Several countries did that actually.  The US was not the first, but hopefully the last.   The US was still an English colony when they started importing slaves here.   The other Euro colonies did the same thing, since they almost killed off all the natives they enslaved in Haiti and Jamaica for example.   Almost if not all of our significant inventors were not slaves.   We benefited initially before the Industrial Revolution from slavery, except the South still wanted it because they were still relying on agriculture.   America at its most powerful was after WW2, when there was no slavery.   Any slaves imported into Austrailia at all?   At least you seem to have treated the natives better there.

I'll take that as a dig at the way Australia has treated their Indigenous people.  My point was that your country was built on the efforts of many races, not one, as mine has been.  And a significant part of that growth was taking advantage of others, not due to natural selection of the fittest necessarily.

Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on July 12, 2007, 06:28:56 AM
In 1807, Britain became the first European nation to ban slavery. However, since Spain and Portugal did not follow the same rule. African slaves continued to be sent to countries in South America until near the end of the 19th century. Britain attempted to stop slave trade by trying to intercept the ships with war ships (off the west coast of Africa). When successfully intercepted the Africans were shipped back to Africa in the areas of Liberia ("Liberty") and Sierra Leone (Freetown) in West Africa, which was established by US and Britain anti-slavers as haven for freed slaves.

i wonder why britain went through all this trouble.   i mean: countries are not just altruistic in their endeavers.  there must have been a bootom line that is not being discussed....debeers?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 12, 2007, 08:29:53 AM
i wonder why britain went through all this trouble.   i mean: countries are not just altruistic in their endeavers.  there must have been a bootom line that is not being discussed....debeers?

Yeah the African diamond mines are fucking terrible.  It is true that both of the people who formed De Beers were English and so is the company itself (named the company after the two Dutch brothers who discovered the mines).    Britian had quite a few problems with its many colonies and probably thought the whole ordeal wasn't worth the effort.   The industrial revolution made it easier to do tasks that required more workers in the past, this made slavery less attractive to most.   De Beers had to be a factor though.

To Eclair:  I agree that America has benefitted greatly from immigrants, they come into our country and work extremely hard to make their way from the bottom.   I wouldn't be too proud if it only took one race to make my country great (maybe if I was 100% something I guess I would).   It is harder to integrate people from different cultures and have them work together towards common goals.   I was arguing that slaves (which were the topic not immigrants) were not that huge of a factor in making America great.   Their biggest contribution was Jazz music in my opinion, which is significant.

It wasn't really an intentional dig on how the Aussies treat their indigenous people, just saying indigenous people always seem to get treated like shit.   I could have referred to any European colony really.   I actually thought you treated the Aborigines better than we did with our own indians (our version of making up for it is letting them open casinos lol). 
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Tesla on July 12, 2007, 09:36:43 AM
So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" lol

Might makes right?   England was the most powerful nation in the world due to its navy for quite some time.   They did their fair share of good and bad.

Like all nations. I fail to see why the Scots have to view us as something unredeemably vile when we're not. Blame Braveheart and Mel Gibson's manboobs.

The Scottish people generate some of the most influential figures in the union, and yet they still winge that they receive bad treatment and are treated like second-class citizens.
Are you being sarcastic?  Who wouldn't complain about being treated poorly and as a second class citizen?

As far as the US screwing up?  It's religion... it's all religion fucking this place up.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 12, 2007, 09:42:01 AM
"Glasgow is the largest and most dynamic economy in Scotland and is at the hub of the metropolitan area of West Central Scotland. The city itself sustains more than 410,000 jobs in over 12,000 companies. Over 153,000 jobs have been created in the city since 2000 - a growth rate of 32%.[43] Glasgow's annual economic growth rate of 4.4% is now second only to that of London. In 2005 alone over 17,000 new jobs were created, and 2006 saw private-sector investment in the city reaching £4.2 billion pounds, an increase of 22% in a single year.[44] The city has outstripped many of its European rivals in terms of economic growth. 55% of the residents in the Greater Glasgow area commute to the city every day. Once dominant Manufacturing industries such as shipbuilding and heavy engineering have been gradually replaced in importance by a modern mixed economy, supported by public and private investment and a skilled workforce.[45]"

So much for the Union then, eh?

And please, if they hate England so much, and that it's justifiable, why speak the language? Why not Gaelic? Talk about pot kettle black.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 12, 2007, 03:00:33 PM
"Glasgow is the largest and most dynamic economy in Scotland and is at the hub of the metropolitan area of West Central Scotland. The city itself sustains more than 410,000 jobs in over 12,000 companies. Over 153,000 jobs have been created in the city since 2000 - a growth rate of 32%.[43] Glasgow's annual economic growth rate of 4.4% is now second only to that of London. In 2005 alone over 17,000 new jobs were created, and 2006 saw private-sector investment in the city reaching £4.2 billion pounds, an increase of 22% in a single year.[44] The city has outstripped many of its European rivals in terms of economic growth. 55% of the residents in the Greater Glasgow area commute to the city every day. Once dominant Manufacturing industries such as shipbuilding and heavy engineering have been gradually replaced in importance by a modern mixed economy, supported by public and private investment and a skilled workforce.[45]"

So much for the Union then, eh?

And please, if they hate England so much, and that it's justifiable, why speak the language? Why not Gaelic? Talk about pot kettle black.

Glasgow is the poorest city in Britain due to the deliberate decimation of it's once proud labour force because they voted to the left of the ruling tory parties of the time. There is that many people commuting from outside Glasgow city walls because they have all left. Look at how the Republic of Ireland has flourished since independence (not to mention norway since they got independence from sweden) and it doesnt have the North sea oil. We speak English because like most of the world it was forced on us. Why does the English use fireworks if they dont want to be ruled by china, you ignoramus, they made it. Why dont they use sherbit powder instead?  Im looking forward to independence, if  you are the standard of brainpower they have on average. The sooner the better, i say.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on July 12, 2007, 05:45:29 PM
So black and white some of you Scots are. England -- the root of all evils.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" lol

Might makes right?   England was the most powerful nation in the world due to its navy for quite some time.   They did their fair share of good and bad.

Like all nations. I fail to see why the Scots have to view us as something unredeemably vile when we're not. Blame Braveheart and Mel Gibson's manboobs.

The Scottish people generate some of the most influential figures in the union, and yet they still winge that they receive bad treatment and are treated like second-class citizens.
Are you being sarcastic?  Who wouldn't complain about being treated poorly and as a second class citizen?

As far as the US screwing up?  It's religion... it's all religion fucking this place up.

I disagree. I think that religion is a veil for the real interests that run this country and we distract ourselves by bitching about a paper tigfer. (I am agnostic, by the way).

"Glasgow is the largest and most dynamic economy in Scotland and is at the hub of the metropolitan area of West Central Scotland. The city itself sustains more than 410,000 jobs in over 12,000 companies. Over 153,000 jobs have been created in the city since 2000 - a growth rate of 32%.[43] Glasgow's annual economic growth rate of 4.4% is now second only to that of London. In 2005 alone over 17,000 new jobs were created, and 2006 saw private-sector investment in the city reaching £4.2 billion pounds, an increase of 22% in a single year.[44] The city has outstripped many of its European rivals in terms of economic growth. 55% of the residents in the Greater Glasgow area commute to the city every day. Once dominant Manufacturing industries such as shipbuilding and heavy engineering have been gradually replaced in importance by a modern mixed economy, supported by public and private investment and a skilled workforce.[45]"

So much for the Union then, eh?

And please, if they hate England so much, and that it's justifiable, why speak the language? Why not Gaelic? Talk about pot kettle black.

Learning Scottish Gaelic is one of my lifetime goals.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 12, 2007, 08:04:38 PM

Learning Scottish Gaelic is one of my lifetime goals.

Good luck with that. Itll probably take you that long. I've watched tons of gaelic programs here and still dont understand a fucking word.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 13, 2007, 06:24:26 AM
"Glasgow is the largest and most dynamic economy in Scotland and is at the hub of the metropolitan area of West Central Scotland. The city itself sustains more than 410,000 jobs in over 12,000 companies. Over 153,000 jobs have been created in the city since 2000 - a growth rate of 32%.[43] Glasgow's annual economic growth rate of 4.4% is now second only to that of London. In 2005 alone over 17,000 new jobs were created, and 2006 saw private-sector investment in the city reaching £4.2 billion pounds, an increase of 22% in a single year.[44] The city has outstripped many of its European rivals in terms of economic growth. 55% of the residents in the Greater Glasgow area commute to the city every day. Once dominant Manufacturing industries such as shipbuilding and heavy engineering have been gradually replaced in importance by a modern mixed economy, supported by public and private investment and a skilled workforce.[45]"

So much for the Union then, eh?

And please, if they hate England so much, and that it's justifiable, why speak the language? Why not Gaelic? Talk about pot kettle black.

Glasgow is the poorest city in Britain due to the deliberate decimation of it's once proud labour force because they voted to the left of the ruling tory parties of the time. There is that many people commuting from outside Glasgow city walls because they have all left. Look at how the Republic of Ireland has flourished since independence (not to mention norway since they got independence from sweden) and it doesnt have the North sea oil. We speak English because like most of the world it was forced on us. Why does the English use fireworks if they dont want to be ruled by china, you ignoramus, they made it. Why dont they use sherbit powder instead?  Im looking forward to independence, if  you are the standard of brainpower they have on average. The sooner the better, i say.

Aw, it was forced on you? So much for Robert the Bruce and his tedious bravado, then.

And what the fuck are you doing for your city, seeing as it's convenient for you to whine how terrible the English are to you while sitting on your fat arse like your good old patron saint doing fuck-all?

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:cfbsABxwfdL_VM:http://www.comedyunit.co.uk/images/rabcnesbitt_wallpaper04.jpg)

Funny show, though.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 13, 2007, 06:36:56 AM
"Glasgow is the largest and most dynamic economy in Scotland and is at the hub of the metropolitan area of West Central Scotland. The city itself sustains more than 410,000 jobs in over 12,000 companies. Over 153,000 jobs have been created in the city since 2000 - a growth rate of 32%.[43] Glasgow's annual economic growth rate of 4.4% is now second only to that of London. In 2005 alone over 17,000 new jobs were created, and 2006 saw private-sector investment in the city reaching £4.2 billion pounds, an increase of 22% in a single year.[44] The city has outstripped many of its European rivals in terms of economic growth. 55% of the residents in the Greater Glasgow area commute to the city every day. Once dominant Manufacturing industries such as shipbuilding and heavy engineering have been gradually replaced in importance by a modern mixed economy, supported by public and private investment and a skilled workforce.[45]"

So much for the Union then, eh?

And please, if they hate England so much, and that it's justifiable, why speak the language? Why not Gaelic? Talk about pot kettle black.

Glasgow is the poorest city in Britain due to the deliberate decimation of it's once proud labour force because they voted to the left of the ruling tory parties of the time. There is that many people commuting from outside Glasgow city walls because they have all left. Look at how the Republic of Ireland has flourished since independence (not to mention norway since they got independence from sweden) and it doesnt have the North sea oil. We speak English because like most of the world it was forced on us. Why does the English use fireworks if they dont want to be ruled by china, you ignoramus, they made it. Why dont they use sherbit powder instead?  Im looking forward to independence, if  you are the standard of brainpower they have on average. The sooner the better, i say.

Aw, it was forced on you? So much for Robert the Bruce and his tedious bravado, then.

And what the fuck are you doing for your city, seeing as it's convenient for you to whine how terrible the English are to you while sitting on your fat arse like your good old patron saint doing fuck-all?

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:cfbsABxwfdL_VM:http://www.comedyunit.co.uk/images/rabcnesbitt_wallpaper04.jpg)

Funny show, though.

It was forced on us by politicians, the people never voted for the union and in fact there were riots in Glasgow over it. Im helping spread the stereotype that we are all lazy bastards by being one myself. What more do you want? Now beat it!
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: ozymandias on July 13, 2007, 04:13:45 PM
When we elected Ronald Reagan for president, aka Presiden Alzheimers.  And except for Clinton, we've had managed presidents ever since.  The rise of people like Karl Rove and Dickhead Cheney (who was in the reagan admin.) began then.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 13, 2007, 06:43:40 PM
I disagree. I think that religion is a veil for the real interests that run this country and we distract ourselves by bitching about a paper tigfer. (I am agnostic, by the way).

Agreed it distracts us from the real shit going on in the background, special interest groups are more than just religious types.  Religion is just one of several factors unfortunately.   It would be easier if we could focus on just one problem, but there are several that are a part of the big picture.   
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 13, 2007, 07:35:08 PM
When we elected Ronald Reagan for president, aka Presiden Alzheimers.  And except for Clinton, we've had managed presidents ever since.  The rise of people like Karl Rove and Dickhead Cheney (who was in the reagan admin.) began then.

That feller was good in 'Sante fe trail'. I havent watched that in years but just bought the dvd yesterday. Bloody abolitionist John Brown. >:(
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: McGiver on July 14, 2007, 09:34:42 AM
banking.  insurance. and the stockmarket.
that is where we went wrong.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 15, 2007, 03:38:02 AM
No damn it. It was the flouride in the water.

 :angrydance:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Nomaken on July 19, 2007, 06:31:17 AM
We got sufficiently ahead(economically and scientifically) and became lazy.  There is no reason to advanced those things unless it gives us a significant advantage over the potential enemies.  Now that we are rolling in the luxury we do not feel motivated to make our nation-dick any bigger.
It is like the story of the tortise and the hare, except since generally all countries have the same desire to gain an advantage over potential enemies and reach our state of luxury, the tortise is not only going to pass the hare, he is going to evolve into a goddamn pteradactyl, leave us in the dust, and we'll have forgotten by then how to evolve into something faster.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: The_P on July 20, 2007, 10:51:50 AM
This is an interesting YouTube video concerning America and it's imperialism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZbgmK_LeBg
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 20, 2007, 10:37:36 PM
i wonder why britain went through all this trouble.   i mean: countries are not just altruistic in their endeavers.  there must have been a bootom line that is not being discussed....debeers?

Yeah the African diamond mines are fucking terrible.  It is true that both of the people who formed De Beers were English and so is the company itself (named the company after the two Dutch brothers who discovered the mines).    Britian had quite a few problems with its many colonies and probably thought the whole ordeal wasn't worth the effort.   The industrial revolution made it easier to do tasks that required more workers in the past, this made slavery less attractive to most.   De Beers had to be a factor though.

To Eclair:  I agree that America has benefitted greatly from immigrants, they come into our country and work extremely hard to make their way from the bottom.   I wouldn't be too proud if it only took one race to make my country great (maybe if I was 100% something I guess I would).   It is harder to integrate people from different cultures and have them work together towards common goals.   I was arguing that slaves (which were the topic not immigrants) were not that huge of a factor in making America great.    Their biggest contribution was Jazz music in my opinion, which is significant.

It wasn't really an intentional dig on how the Aussies treat their indigenous people, just saying indigenous people always seem to get treated like shit.   I could have referred to any European colony really.   I actually thought you treated the Aborigines better than we did with our own indians (our version of making up for it is letting them open casinos lol). 

How do you think people got wealthy?  By using slaves to do their work and build up their riches.  Of course slavery enabled a huge growth in America.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 20, 2007, 11:34:01 PM
How do you think people got wealthy?  By using slaves to do their work and build up their riches.  Of course slavery enabled a huge growth in America.

Yes agriculturally mostly up until slavery ended it did.  The old South is destroyed pretty much for except for Savannah, Sherman burned it to the ground (bye Atlanta).   America gained the most more recently post WW2, before that it was decent but not the world power economically and militarily that it is now.  It was a factor this is true, several other colonies and nations were built up by slaves as well.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 21, 2007, 01:39:19 AM
How do you think people got wealthy?  By using slaves to do their work and build up their riches.  Of course slavery enabled a huge growth in America.

Yes agriculturally mostly up until slavery ended it did.  The old South is destroyed pretty much for except for Savannah, Sherman burned it to the ground (bye Atlanta).   America gained the most more recently post WW2, before that it was decent but not the world power economically and militarily that it is now.  It was a factor this is true, several other colonies and nations were built up by slaves as well.

I don't know about world power...I'd equate it more like a flashy salesman.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 21, 2007, 11:48:11 AM
It is one of the world powers when you take into account the size of its military and the GDP. 

GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita (9th per capita, much larger total population than those above it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 (#1 overall total GDP)

this site does a good job at showing military strength:   http://www.globalfirepower.com/

here is a way to do country comparison:  http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison.asp

The US has the largest navy in the world that isn't being used much at this stage in the two current wars.   Where I live there is a naval base and I know several people that are in the navy (some from FFXI).   Our military is using a police warfare strategy to combat the guerrilla/terrorist warfare tactics of the insurgency.   They avoid civillian casualties, this much was evident talking to our bassist Randy before he left for Iraq.  Stray bullets will always kill though unfortunately.   

The US could tail off sometime in the near future and imo will have its time where it won't be as important as it is now globally.  The economy still is moving decently and the military isn't even being fully utilized, the war in Iraq is a total waste.   It seems instead of leaving they are going with a troop surge, which really isn't the solution imo.   Afghanistan is back to being the world's #1 opium producer now, as it was before the war started there lol.   It is looking like it will be a failed state sadly as Iraq probably will also and it might have to be partitioned.  Kind of like when Britain, France and the USA partitioned the Ottoman Empire after WW1.   Later of course Britain decided to allow creation of the nation of Israel after WW2 in 1948 (Britain was in charge of Palestine and Iraq).   France got Lebanon and Syria.   That is the main reason for the terrorist actions coming out of the Middle East supposedly.   
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Mesopotamia
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 21, 2007, 12:33:19 PM
It is one of the world powers when you take into account the size of its military and the GDP. 

GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita (9th per capita, much larger total population than those above it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 (#1 overall total GDP)

this site does a good job at showing military strength:   http://www.globalfirepower.com/

here is a way to do country comparison:  http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison.asp

The US has the largest navy in the world that isn't being used much at this stage in the two current wars.   Where I live there is a naval base and I know several people that are in the navy (some from FFXI).   Our military is using a police warfare strategy to combat the guerrilla/terrorist warfare tactics of the insurgency.   They avoid civillian casualties, this much was evident talking to our bassist Randy before he left for Iraq.  Stray bullets will always kill though unfortunately.   

The US could tail off sometime in the near future and imo will have its time where it won't be as important as it is now globally.  The economy still is moving decently and the military isn't even being fully utilized, the war in Iraq is a total waste.   It seems instead of leaving they are going with a troop surge, which really isn't the solution imo.   Afghanistan is back to being the world's #1 opium producer now, as it was before the war started there lol.   It is looking like it will be a failed state sadly as Iraq probably will also and it might have to be partitioned.  Kind of like when Britain, France and the USA partitioned the Ottoman Empire after WW1.   Later of course Britain decided to allow creation of the nation of Israel after WW2 in 1948 (Britain was in charge of Palestine and Iraq).   France got Lebanon and Syria.   That is the main reason for the terrorist actions coming out of the Middle East supposedly.   
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Mesopotamia

Sounds like the brainwashing is working.

Be afraid.

On a more realistic note, I find it interesting that comparitively, Australia has a higher per capita olympic medal score than the US....if we are talkiing about survival of the fittest.

And, I do believe that when the Tsunami hit and killed over a quarter of a million people on this - OUR planet, that we were the most generous of nations.  Perhaps if you guys sold off a few of your fucking man toys and people killing machines, you might figure it out.  I'm sorry, I just don't buy this over the top patriotic, chest-beating, we are a super power bullshit.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 21, 2007, 01:01:56 PM
Sounds like the brainwashing is working.

Be afraid.

On a more realistic note, I find it interesting that comparitively, Australia has a higher per capita olympic medal score than the US....if we are talkiing about survival of the fittest.

And, I do believe that when the Tsunami hit and killed over a quarter of a million people on this - OUR planet, that we were the most generous of nations.  Perhaps if you guys sold off a few of your fucking man toys and people killing machines, you might figure it out.  I'm sorry, I just don't buy this over the top patriotic, chest-beating, we are a super power bullshit.

lol @ the olympics, that is sports.   Yes the US is falling behind in the olympics somewhat.

Anyways, the term world power has and always referred to military and economic power.   Has nothing to do with athletics.   The US gives the most foreign aid but it is tied to products and services (aid with strings attached).   Plenty of philanthropy from the private citizens as well.   None of that has anything to do with the traditional ideal of a world power. 

There is more materialism in the US that I would agree upon, not just "man toys" and "people killing machines" though.  Yes sell them off to nations who hate us, good idea.   

The US government pledged 350 million dollars in aid to Tsunami victims, private donations to charities are up to 342 million dollars from US citizens.   US citizens give even more money philanthropically than that but it is given to churches which in turn are to be giving aid with religion attached.   That obviously bothers the world. 
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on July 21, 2007, 01:17:25 PM
It is one of the world powers when you take into account the size of its military and the GDP. 

GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita (9th per capita, much larger total population than those above it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 (#1 overall total GDP)

this site does a good job at showing military strength:   http://www.globalfirepower.com/

here is a way to do country comparison:  http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison.asp

The US has the largest navy in the world that isn't being used much at this stage in the two current wars.   Where I live there is a naval base and I know several people that are in the navy (some from FFXI).   Our military is using a police warfare strategy to combat the guerrilla/terrorist warfare tactics of the insurgency.   They avoid civillian casualties, this much was evident talking to our bassist Randy before he left for Iraq.  Stray bullets will always kill though unfortunately.   

The US could tail off sometime in the near future and imo will have its time where it won't be as important as it is now globally.  The economy still is moving decently and the military isn't even being fully utilized, the war in Iraq is a total waste.   It seems instead of leaving they are going with a troop surge, which really isn't the solution imo.   Afghanistan is back to being the world's #1 opium producer now, as it was before the war started there lol.   It is looking like it will be a failed state sadly as Iraq probably will also and it might have to be partitioned.  Kind of like when Britain, France and the USA partitioned the Ottoman Empire after WW1.   Later of course Britain decided to allow creation of the nation of Israel after WW2 in 1948 (Britain was in charge of Palestine and Iraq).   France got Lebanon and Syria.   That is the main reason for the terrorist actions coming out of the Middle East supposedly.   
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Mesopotamia

Sounds like the brainwashing is working.

Be afraid.

On a more realistic note, I find it interesting that comparitively, Australia has a higher per capita olympic medal score than the US....if we are talkiing about survival of the fittest.

And, I do believe that when the Tsunami hit and killed over a quarter of a million people on this - OUR planet, that we were the most generous of nations.  Perhaps if you guys sold off a few of your fucking man toys and people killing machines, you might figure it out.  I'm sorry, I just don't buy this over the top patriotic, chest-beating, we are a super power bullshit.

What the hell did he say that sounded like brainwashing?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 21, 2007, 01:20:04 PM
She doesn't like factual information that is all.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 21, 2007, 05:30:08 PM
She doesn't like factual information that is all.

Olympics, yes, laugh, it's just sports....why would you be concerned when you have the highest obesity levels in the world. 

Assumptions are assumptions, facts are facts. 

I just refuse to believe that the US is the greatest country on the earth because being a world power is a value ingrained in a high percentage of people.  Hence my comment on brainwashing. 

In regard to your comments about the generosity of Americans, American statistics on giving include corporate donations anyway.  Also, in Australia, donations to churches is not tax deductible, hence not included in our statistics...and as you say, most of the donations are to churches in your country.

I'm not going to even get into the church debate.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 21, 2007, 07:07:16 PM
She doesn't like factual information that is all.

Olympics, yes, laugh, it's just sports....why would you be concerned when you have the highest obesity levels in the world. 

Assumptions are assumptions, facts are facts. 

I just refuse to believe that the US is the greatest country on the earth because being a world power is a value ingrained in a high percentage of people.  Hence my comment on brainwashing. 

In regard to your comments about the generosity of Americans, American statistics on giving include corporate donations anyway.  Also, in Australia, donations to churches is not tax deductible, hence not included in our statistics...and as you say, most of the donations are to churches in your country.

I'm not going to even get into the church debate.
The US is the only recognised world superpower at the minute, so in millatary terms they are the best country in the world, their millatary spend is more than the rest of the world combined. So at a brutal level they are the best. On almost everything else they are not. It all depends how you defined best country, personally I would go for most happiest, which the US is definately not!
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 21, 2007, 07:21:11 PM
Olympics, yes, laugh, it's just sports....why would you be concerned when you have the highest obesity levels in the world. 

Assumptions are assumptions, facts are facts. 

I just refuse to believe that the US is the greatest country on the earth because being a world power is a value ingrained in a high percentage of people.  Hence my comment on brainwashing. 

In regard to your comments about the generosity of Americans, American statistics on giving include corporate donations anyway.  Also, in Australia, donations to churches is not tax deductible, hence not included in our statistics...and as you say, most of the donations are to churches in your country.

I'm not going to even get into the church debate.

You assume I think the US is the greatest country in the world because they are a superpower.   I never said the US is benevolent or physically fit.   The US like most nations has its fair share of problems.   I am more than aware of the negative things that exist in this country, you just were saying that the US wasn't a superpower (which technically speaking it is).   

No need to go into the church debate because I am not a big fan of organized religion anyways lol.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 21, 2007, 07:52:14 PM
She doesn't like factual information that is all.

Olympics, yes, laugh, it's just sports....why would you be concerned when you have the highest obesity levels in the world. 

Assumptions are assumptions, facts are facts. 

I just refuse to believe that the US is the greatest country on the earth because being a world power is a value ingrained in a high percentage of people.  Hence my comment on brainwashing. 

In regard to your comments about the generosity of Americans, American statistics on giving include corporate donations anyway.  Also, in Australia, donations to churches is not tax deductible, hence not included in our statistics...and as you say, most of the donations are to churches in your country.

I'm not going to even get into the church debate.
The US is the only recognised world superpower at the minute, so in millatary terms they are the best country in the world, their millatary spend is more than the rest of the world combined. So at a brutal level they are the best. On almost everything else they are not. It all depends how you defined best country, personally I would go for most happiest, which the US is definately not!

The US is responsible for 48 percent of world military spending. Which isnt more than the rest of the world put together. Far more than any other one country though. For quality of life and lack of poverty the nordic countries followed by the like of the Republic of Ireland are rated the best by the likes of the UN and CIA world factbook.

Nobody lives under the UN poverty level in Norway which imo is far more reason to rate a country than the likes of the US, Britain and China all who have disgracefully high levels of poverty for such rich countries who spend so much on 'defence'.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 21, 2007, 07:59:20 PM
They were originally talking about superpower status not quality of life per capita.   Yes the US is fucked up lol.   For such a huge nation that moves so much stuff around economically and militarily, it could be worse.   Nowhere was I arguing the US is the best place to live, there is quite the variance in quality of life across the US.   Norway and Ireland are as small as some states, which themselves are pretty damn productive.   Look at California for the best example I guess economically.   

Quality of life wise the US isn't the best nation, but not really the worst to live in either.   No reason to feel sorry for us like we are a 3rd world country necessarily.   It would be impossible to not admit that this nation doesn't have its several downfalls of its own.   The average Chinese person saves more money per what they earn than the average American for example.   We spend spend spend.   The superpower argument mainly is something that proves the country is still somewhat significant.   Quality of life here isn't bad, but it could be better.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 21, 2007, 08:10:24 PM
  No reason to feel sorry for us like we are a 3rd world country necessarily. 

No, im more likely to feel sorry for myself as a poor person who lives in a country that spends lots of money on white elephants like the millenium dome and foreign wars yet cannot adequately deal with the issue of poverty.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 21, 2007, 08:13:40 PM
  No reason to feel sorry for us like we are a 3rd world country necessarily. 

No, im more likely to feel sorry for myself as a poor person who lives in a country that spends lots of money on white elephants like the millenium dome and foreign wars yet cannot adequately deal with the issue of poverty.

Ah I am not a poor person necessarily.   Our country does have its fair share and then some unfortunately.   Does your country spend all of its funds wisely?   I am sure Scotland is a perfect utopia (isn't that where you are from?).   You are more correct in feeling sorry for individuals in nations as supposed to the nation as a whole.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 21, 2007, 08:15:52 PM
  No reason to feel sorry for us like we are a 3rd world country necessarily. 

No, im more likely to feel sorry for myself as a poor person who lives in a country that spends lots of money on white elephants like the millenium dome and foreign wars yet cannot adequately deal with the issue of poverty.

Ah I am not a poor person necessarily.   Our country does have its fair share and then some unfortunately.   Does your country spend all of its funds wisely?   I am sure Scotland is a perfect utopia (isn't that where you are from?).   You are more correct in feeling sorry for individuals in nations as supposed to the nation as a whole.

I was talking about my country and myself but like Elwood says in 'the blues brothers' movie "It aint much, but it's home".
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 21, 2007, 10:47:00 PM
It's sort of ironic that a country that has such an expensive health system, unhealthy people, high levels of crime, lays off blue collar workers by importing so much from China....the list goes on....and then goes and spends so much money on defence. 

I believe there is also a fair amount of corruption in Government contracts awarded for defence projects also.  SAIC comes to mind as one example.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 21, 2007, 11:49:13 PM
It's sort of ironic that a country that has such an expensive health system, unhealthy people, high levels of crime, lays off blue collar workers by importing so much from China....the list goes on....and then goes and spends so much money on defence. 

I believe there is also a fair amount of corruption in Government contracts awarded for defence projects also.  SAIC comes to mind as one example.

Even MORE amazing is that given all this,
it STILL seems to work. Hmm...maybe something
being done right underneath it all.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 22, 2007, 12:02:02 AM
Yeah my main concern is the outsourcing of labor and partial damaging it has done to the middle/lower class here.   The layoffs are never good and just a way of the CEOs and stockholders assuring that they take less of a hit financially.   They would gladly sacrifice the jobs of some of their workers just to be more profitable and benefit themselves.   This unfortunatey is a trend happening in other countries, evidenced by the Canadian printing businessman I talked to in Munich rants over layoffs and job outsourcing his countries companies are doing as well.  Another Canadian I was talking to at the beaches here was more optimistic about the more powerful nations outsourcing jobs.   Probably because he doesn't care at all about what doesn't effect him directly. 

The high crime is sadly something that will not be helped if we continue to see the war on drugs the way we do currently.   The massive amount of illegally obtained handguns used in about 96% of gun crimes in the US is troubling to say the least when there are so many legally obtained guns already in circulation.   Using a registered handgun to commit a crime is for only the biggest criminal retards here lol.  Drugs are a big problem here, most of our crime is drug related (robberies and murders can be linked to gangs that sell drugs for example).   Getting more and more reminiscent of the prohibition days and the gangs that were so infamous back then.

The health I can't control sadly, I can only control my own.   The greedy medication companies sicken me selling their pills for fractions less in neighboring countries like Canada, when they are US based themselves.   They know US citizens will pay those outrageous prices.   Yes my health care is expensive, yet my taxes are lower in comparison to what I would have to pay for socialized healthcare.   A different health care system in the US or some sort of reform to the privatized one we currently have is more than necessary.   Social Security is also a big factor looming on the horizon.   One that mathematically could destroy our nation actually if they don't do something drastic about it soon.  Bush so far is taking about reforming it, but it will most likely be done by the next president.

Corruption in government contracts aren't limited to defense spending, there are speculations over highway building and several other things as well.  Lobbyists piss me off, same with special interest groups.   So much reform is needed.   I like Thomas Jefferson's initial idea of a complete revolution every so often.   Well not a violent one hopefully, but our current government could be more ideal.   Same could be said for a good deal of other nations unfortunately.

I agree that where I live (North Florida) has more than its fair share of problems, but it has its good things as well.   The only main thing it is to me is home right now.   I could hate it more that much is for sure.   Seemingly I always have some hatred to spare.

My grandfather who was a WW2 vet thinks the US is probably fucked in the long run as he doesn't see things getting better.   I agree with him that drastic changes in philosophy will be needed to stay afloat.

Yes it is amazing Cal that the country still clings together and manages to work.   There are some right things being done obviously.   It can't all be wrong haha.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 22, 2007, 12:07:12 AM
It pisses me off that Bush spends so much money on the military when that money could be used for helping people in Africa and other nations that could use it. It is such a fucking waste...we could be helping people, but instead we're destroying them.  >:(
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 22, 2007, 12:22:22 AM
It pisses me off that Bush spends so much money on the military when that money could be used for helping people in Africa and other nations that could use it. It is such a fucking waste...we could be helping people, but instead we're destroying them.  >:(

Well he already had one foot in the shitter with Afghanistan so he said "what the hell" and jumped in with both feet (left foot in Iraq of course).  We probably would waste the money in other ways anyways lol.   I am sure we would do more with foreign aid to places like Africa for example, but it wouldn't be as much as one would hope.   All I know is that the nation had to at least attempt to do something about Al-queda in Afghanistan specifically after 9/11, otherwise it would show we are willing to let them keep slapping us in the face without any consequence.   Iraq was just Bush trying to finish what his dad didn't imo (even though his father told him to not bother with it supposedly lol).   Brace yourself for more waste in government spending, no matter who is president.   We have a nice big beaucracy to run lol.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 22, 2007, 12:26:52 AM
lol...i'm not saying we would do that...i just wish that was the way it was.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 12:29:55 AM
It's sort of ironic that a country that has such an expensive health system, unhealthy people, high levels of crime, lays off blue collar workers by importing so much from China....the list goes on....and then goes and spends so much money on defence. 

I believe there is also a fair amount of corruption in Government contracts awarded for defence projects also.  SAIC comes to mind as one example.

Even MORE amazing is that given all this,
it STILL seems to work. Hmm...maybe something
being done right underneath it all.

Is it really working Cal?  If I had a heart attack tonight, I could go to my hospital and get life saving surgery for free.  I can get dental for free if I'm prepared to wait for it, anything that saves my life, is free.  I pay $160 for my psychologist and get $100 back.  I pay $50 for a GP and get $30 back...that's without insurance.

The only reason I pay medical insurance is because over a certain tax bracket, you have to or pay a higher penalty for the free system.  I only ever use my private insurance for things like dental work, glasses or if I went to hospital I could have my own private room and pick my own doctor.  That is it.  
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 22, 2007, 12:41:33 AM
lol...i'm not saying we would do that...i just wish that was the way it was.

Yeah my daydream utopia works pretty well, too bad it does not exist and never will.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2007, 01:11:41 AM
It's sort of ironic that a country that has such an expensive health system, unhealthy people, high levels of crime, lays off blue collar workers by importing so much from China....the list goes on....and then goes and spends so much money on defence. 

I believe there is also a fair amount of corruption in Government contracts awarded for defence projects also.  SAIC comes to mind as one example.

Even MORE amazing is that given all this,
it STILL seems to work. Hmm...maybe something
being done right underneath it all.

Is it really working Cal?  If I had a heart attack tonight, I could go to my hospital and get life saving surgery for free.  I can get dental for free if I'm prepared to wait for it, anything that saves my life, is free.  I pay $160 for my psychologist and get $100 back.  I pay $50 for a GP and get $30 back...that's without insurance.

The only reason I pay medical insurance is because over a certain tax bracket, you have to or pay a higher penalty for the free system.  I only ever use my private insurance for things like dental work, glasses or if I went to hospital I could have my own private room and pick my own doctor.  That is it.  

Ah, you just got my goat. I AGREE with you,
but maybe letting the poor die is better than
keeping them alive, at least in terms of keeping
the economy running.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 03:21:55 AM
It's sort of ironic that a country that has such an expensive health system, unhealthy people, high levels of crime, lays off blue collar workers by importing so much from China....the list goes on....and then goes and spends so much money on defence. 

I believe there is also a fair amount of corruption in Government contracts awarded for defence projects also.  SAIC comes to mind as one example.

Even MORE amazing is that given all this,
it STILL seems to work. Hmm...maybe something
being done right underneath it all.

Is it really working Cal?  If I had a heart attack tonight, I could go to my hospital and get life saving surgery for free.  I can get dental for free if I'm prepared to wait for it, anything that saves my life, is free.  I pay $160 for my psychologist and get $100 back.  I pay $50 for a GP and get $30 back...that's without insurance.

The only reason I pay medical insurance is because over a certain tax bracket, you have to or pay a higher penalty for the free system.  I only ever use my private insurance for things like dental work, glasses or if I went to hospital I could have my own private room and pick my own doctor.  That is it.  

Ah, you just got my goat. I AGREE with you,
but maybe letting the poor die is better than
keeping them alive, at least in terms of keeping
the economy running.

No you are wrong, the poor have to be kept alive, living on the breadline, so they can at least shop at Walmart and buy bullets and cheap Chinese produced crap so the Walmart executives can drive around in Porsches and pay the rental on apartments for numerous blondes under the age of twenty to fuck their brains out.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: DirtDawg on July 22, 2007, 05:09:23 AM

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. From the outside? Politics? Yes, indeed! It is a waste of time at this point.

You need to fuck off, aussie, better-than-thou bitch! It's day-to-day sometimes for the ones who are trying to live right in this country.

 :minus:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 05:14:28 AM

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. From the outside? Politics? Yes, indeed! It is a waste of time at this point.

You need to fuck off, aussie, better-than-thou bitch!
It's day-to-day sometimes for the ones who are trying to live right in this country.

 :minus:

I think you owe me a very humble apology.

What I wrote;

"No you are wrong, the poor have to be kept alive, living on the breadline, so they can at least shop at Walmart and buy bullets and cheap Chinese produced crap so the Walmart executives can drive around in Porsches and pay the rental on apartments for numerous blondes under the age of twenty to fuck their brains out."

Was exactly that, a snapshot of how your politicians think.  That the corporates push down the hard workers so that they can live a life of excess, greed and filth. 

I don't think at any point I said I was better than anyone.  I detest the concept of one country thinking they are the uber power, when in fact they treat their own citizens like shit.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Lucifer on July 22, 2007, 05:18:00 AM

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. From the outside? Politics? Yes, indeed! It is a waste of time at this point.

You need to fuck off, aussie, better-than-thou bitch! It's day-to-day sometimes for the ones who are trying to live right in this country.

 :minus:

i think that's a bit harsh, DD.  obviously, you can't know the way in which the USA is shoved down the throats of people who don't live there, day in, day out, as some sort of utopia.  any person who thinks and questions is bound to look to see if there's an underside, and when they find it, the response to the constant "bigging up" is to be iconoclastic.

i don't think eclair is saying australia is better than the US.  but then, what would i know? - i'm a brit.  you're both colonials, as far as i'm concerned.  :P  ;)
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: DirtDawg on July 22, 2007, 05:22:43 AM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 05:29:29 AM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog.  They can't even give you a reasonable health system, yet they pour billions into proving that they are an uber power.

Take my comments as you will.  I love my country and I love that we have values that far surpass your country and it's false facade of wealth and power.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: DirtDawg on July 22, 2007, 07:13:23 AM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog. 

As if they all don't? Wake up!
Try to imagine where your country would be without the billions of US$, which you seem to have disdain for, that have crossed the ocean for your benefit. You should not ask for an apology. You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.

I'm really done, though, because I am not so patriotic as to promote the conditions here with a full heart, but I am tired of people thinking that we, as a whole, are nothing more than the Bush administration.

I don't want the fullness of my disgust to be personal, so I will offer an apology to you, for calling you names, but get off the fucking soap box. There are many of us who feel the same way as you and we are trying to do the best we can on a daily basis. The present may be lost, but the future is where our hope lies and there is quite a bit of good here which makes the USA worth the salvage efforts.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 07:26:05 AM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog. 

As if they all don't? Wake up!
Try to imagine where your country would be without the billions of US$, which you seem to have disdain for, that have crossed the ocean for your benefit. You should not ask for an apology. You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.

I'm really done, though, because I am not so patriotic as to promote the conditions here with a full heart, but I am tired of people thinking that we, as a whole, are nothing more than the Bush administration.

I don't want the fullness of my disgust to be personal, so I will offer an apology to you, for calling you names, but get off the fucking soap box. There are many of us who feel the same way as you and we are trying to do the best we can on a daily basis. The present may be lost, but the future is where our hope lies and there is quite a bit of good here which makes the USA worth the salvage efforts.

I believe I said your government treats it's people like shit and you eventually agreed with me, but you have put me down every chance you had, despite deliberately misinterpreting what I have clearly said several times. 

You can stick your apology up your ass.




Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: DirtDawg on July 22, 2007, 07:30:55 AM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog. 

As if they all don't? Wake up!
Try to imagine where your country would be without the billions of US$, which you seem to have disdain for, that have crossed the ocean for your benefit. You should not ask for an apology. You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.

I'm really done, though, because I am not so patriotic as to promote the conditions here with a full heart, but I am tired of people thinking that we, as a whole, are nothing more than the Bush administration.

I don't want the fullness of my disgust to be personal, so I will offer an apology to you, for calling you names, but get off the fucking soap box. There are many of us who feel the same way as you and we are trying to do the best we can on a daily basis. The present may be lost, but the future is where our hope lies and there is quite a bit of good here which makes the USA worth the salvage efforts.

I believe I said your government treats it's people like shit and you eventually agreed with me, but you have put me down every chance you had, despite deliberately misinterpreting what I have clearly said several times. 

You can stick your apology up your ass.






Very well, then.
I honestly don't see how I have misinterpreted your statements.

You have basically said that we are all shit, because of our government's corruption. I am not agreeing.

I am not putting you down - only pointing out your double standard.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 22, 2007, 11:43:26 AM
John Howard and Tony Blair are no better than Bush IMO since they support him. People in other countries love to complain about what the USA is doing, but their own prime ministers don't help anything.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 22, 2007, 11:50:06 AM
I don't think there is a specific point where the USA screwed up. I think the USA screwed up in a lot of different places. I think a large part of it though is that a lot of people here don't care/aren't educated enough about politics and world affairs. In addition, the two party system needs to change.

I may elaborate more later when I get back from work.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 02:45:07 PM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog. 

As if they all don't? Wake up!
Try to imagine where your country would be without the billions of US$, which you seem to have disdain for, that have crossed the ocean for your benefit. You should not ask for an apology. You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.

I'm really done, though, because I am not so patriotic as to promote the conditions here with a full heart, but I am tired of people thinking that we, as a whole, are nothing more than the Bush administration.

I don't want the fullness of my disgust to be personal, so I will offer an apology to you, for calling you names, but get off the fucking soap box. There are many of us who feel the same way as you and we are trying to do the best we can on a daily basis. The present may be lost, but the future is where our hope lies and there is quite a bit of good here which makes the USA worth the salvage efforts.

I believe I said your government treats it's people like shit and you eventually agreed with me, but you have put me down every chance you had, despite deliberately misinterpreting what I have clearly said several times. 

You can stick your apology up your ass.






Very well, then.
I honestly don't see how I have misinterpreted your statements.

You have basically said that we are all shit, because of our government's corruption. I am not agreeing.

I am not putting you down - only pointing out your double standard.

I NEVER said that, thank you very much.
The essence of my argument was that your government spends way too much on it's image of being a super power, yet lets it's own citizens down with a very weak health system, amongst other things.  What is so hard to grasp about that 

My government, I agree, spends way too much time up your government's ass and I do believe earlier that I said most Australians would agree with me.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on July 22, 2007, 03:14:01 PM
People in Europe and the Commonwealth who assume we're more supportive of our government than they are of theirs are at least as uninformed as they say we are. It's the big irony of global politics. "Americans think they're so great, they're full of themselves, they only talk about how great their country is, but here in country X we have Y and they don't have that! How can they consider themselves better than us?"
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eamonn on July 22, 2007, 03:26:36 PM
I agree. People are individuals many of whom are nice many of whom are not but put them together and tribal dominance predjudice and stupidity prevails. Non-Americans who claim all Americans are bigheaded idiots are just as guilty of simple-minded generalisations as any Yanks who do blow their own trumpet and insult other cultures. None of the big superpowers beforehand or were altruistic and the same occurs just now and other governments like my own are in it together with the Bush administration when it comes to feathering the nest of the rich and powerful. In rivers and your toilet bowl it's often the shite that floats to the top.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 22, 2007, 03:30:56 PM
People in Europe and the Commonwealth who assume we're more supportive of our government than they are of theirs are at least as uninformed as they say we are. It's the big irony of global politics. "Americans think they're so great, they're full of themselves, they only talk about how great their country is, but here in country X we have Y and they don't have that! How can they consider themselves better than us?"

OK, where did I say that I assume Americans were super supportive of their goverment?  I do believe that your government wants to sell the idea of a super power to the people, which relates back to my comment of 'brainwashing'....probably not the best word....but anyway, a flashy salesman.  Yes, a lot of governments are like that.  Ours is more like the uptight parent who says, 'it's for your own good, you just don't know it yet'.

My initial comments were that I was annoyed that Alex was carrying on as if being a super power was a great thing.  I believe it is not, especially when it is at the expense of the health etc of the country.

And that's about the last time I am going to try and explain my viewpoint.  
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: maldoror on July 22, 2007, 03:45:34 PM
People in Europe and the Commonwealth who assume we're more supportive of our government than they are of theirs are at least as uninformed as they say we are. It's the big irony of global politics. "Americans think they're so great, they're full of themselves, they only talk about how great their country is, but here in country X we have Y and they don't have that! How can they consider themselves better than us?"

OK, where did I say that I assume Americans were super supportive of their goverment?

Where did I say you did?

Quote
I do believe that your government wants to sell the idea of a super power to the people, which relates back to my comment of 'brainwashing'....probably not the best word....but anyway, a flashy salesman.  Yes, a lot of governments are like that.  Ours is more like the uptight parent who says, 'it's for your own good, you just don't know it yet'.

And why do you believe that exactly? Have you lived here? In reality, there's no reason for them to want to "sell" us that idea. If America does have the resources by which it would be considered a superpower (whatever that means), it doesn't do any good for them to go touting that around to win elections; in actuality the opposite has been true lately, that Bush has been manipulating us through fear and vulnerability. If people percieve that we consider ourselves a superpower, that's them extrapolating.


Quote
My initial comments were that I was annoyed that Alex was carrying on as if being a super power was a great thing.  I believe it is not, especially when it is at the expense of the health etc of the country.

And that's about the last time I am going to try and explain my viewpoint. 


Explaining your viewpoint is one thing, but as an American I'm getting sick of being accused of being brainwashed, ignorant, and ethnocentric online. I'm not saying you did, but this is what fuels my reaction.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 22, 2007, 08:32:58 PM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog. 

As if they all don't? Wake up!
Try to imagine where your country would be without the billions of US$, which you seem to have disdain for, that have crossed the ocean for your benefit. You should not ask for an apology. You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.

I'm really done, though, because I am not so patriotic as to promote the conditions here with a full heart, but I am tired of people thinking that we, as a whole, are nothing more than the Bush administration.

I don't want the fullness of my disgust to be personal, so I will offer an apology to you, for calling you names, but get off the fucking soap box. There are many of us who feel the same way as you and we are trying to do the best we can on a daily basis. The present may be lost, but the future is where our hope lies and there is quite a bit of good here which makes the USA worth the salvage efforts.

I believe I said your government treats it's people like shit and you eventually agreed with me, but you have put me down every chance you had, despite deliberately misinterpreting what I have clearly said several times. 

You can stick your apology up your ass.






Very well, then.
I honestly don't see how I have misinterpreted your statements.

You have basically said that we are all shit, because of our government's corruption. I am not agreeing.

I am not putting you down - only pointing out your double standard.

I NEVER said that, thank you very much.
The essence of my argument was that your government spends way too much on it's image of being a super power, yet lets it's own citizens down with a very weak health system, amongst other things.  What is so hard to grasp about that 

My government, I agree, spends way too much time up your government's ass and I do believe earlier that I said most Australians would agree with me.

The health system in Australia doesn't seem any better than the one in the US.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2007, 08:35:52 PM

No you are wrong, the poor have to be kept alive, living on the breadline, so they can at least shop at Walmart and buy bullets and cheap Chinese produced crap so the Walmart executives can drive around in Porsches and pay the rental on apartments for numerous blondes under the age of twenty to fuck their brains out.

I was referring to those too sick to
be at all productive, or even decent
consumers of anything other than
the medical industry.

And no, the welfare state is mostly
dead. Replaced by the "hold lots of
crap jobs" state.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2007, 08:37:28 PM
obviously, you can't know the way in which the USA is shoved down the throats of people who don't live there, day in, day out, as some sort of utopia. 

Oh, you have to be kidding.
The reactions that I get from just
about every foreign person is that this
place isn't as HORRIBLE as they were led
to believe.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2007, 08:38:36 PM
You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.



Japanese would have been the more likely option.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2007, 08:40:15 PM
John Howard and Tony Blair are no better than Bush IMO since they support him. People in other countries love to complain about what the USA is doing, but their own prime ministers don't help anything.
:agreed: :plus:

Not all countries though.
Some, like France, Russia, and Germany
make certain that they get concessions
for even the slightest bit of support. Others,
like Venezuela, stand in opposition.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 22, 2007, 08:44:28 PM

Quote
I do believe that your government wants to sell the idea of a super power to the people, which relates back to my comment of 'brainwashing'....probably not the best word....but anyway, a flashy salesman.  Yes, a lot of governments are like that.  Ours is more like the uptight parent who says, 'it's for your own good, you just don't know it yet'.

And why do you believe that exactly? Have you lived here? In reality, there's no reason for them to want to "sell" us that idea. If America does have the resources by which it would be considered a superpower (whatever that means), it doesn't do any good for them to go touting that around to win elections; in actuality the opposite has been true lately, that Bush has been manipulating us through fear and vulnerability. If people percieve that we consider ourselves a superpower, that's them extrapolating.

I'm American and I've never seen the government try to sell us with the whole superpower thing...then again, I don't live in a conservative state. I've seen Bush on TV saying that it's important for us to finish the war in Iraq, etc. but not with any (or at least not any good or believeable) reasons why.

Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2007, 09:18:16 PM
I've seen Bush on TV saying that it's important for us to finish the war in Iraq, etc. but not with any (or at least not any good or believeable) reasons why.

Prestige is an important reason.
But, NOT going in would have done
a hell of a lot less harm, than success
even would, at this point.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 23, 2007, 05:31:23 AM
obviously, you can't know the way in which the USA is shoved down the throats of people who don't live there, day in, day out, as some sort of utopia. 

Oh, you have to be kidding.
The reactions that I get from just
about every foreign person is that this
place isn't as HORRIBLE as they were led
to believe.
I would say my impression didnt really change since I went there on holiday personally. But then i didnt think it was totally horrible to begin with.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 23, 2007, 06:41:23 AM
It's the notion that an elitist few make up the whole is where I am exhausted. I'm done with that bullshit.

I'm saying your government screws over the underdog. 

As if they all don't? Wake up!
Try to imagine where your country would be without the billions of US$, which you seem to have disdain for, that have crossed the ocean for your benefit. You should not ask for an apology. You should remove your hat and offer a humble thank you, since German is not your country's first language.

I'm really done, though, because I am not so patriotic as to promote the conditions here with a full heart, but I am tired of people thinking that we, as a whole, are nothing more than the Bush administration.

I don't want the fullness of my disgust to be personal, so I will offer an apology to you, for calling you names, but get off the fucking soap box. There are many of us who feel the same way as you and we are trying to do the best we can on a daily basis. The present may be lost, but the future is where our hope lies and there is quite a bit of good here which makes the USA worth the salvage efforts.

I believe I said your government treats it's people like shit and you eventually agreed with me, but you have put me down every chance you had, despite deliberately misinterpreting what I have clearly said several times. 

You can stick your apology up your ass.






Very well, then.
I honestly don't see how I have misinterpreted your statements.

You have basically said that we are all shit, because of our government's corruption. I am not agreeing.

I am not putting you down - only pointing out your double standard.

I NEVER said that, thank you very much.
The essence of my argument was that your government spends way too much on it's image of being a super power, yet lets it's own citizens down with a very weak health system, amongst other things.  What is so hard to grasp about that 

My government, I agree, spends way too much time up your government's ass and I do believe earlier that I said most Australians would agree with me.

The health system in Australia doesn't seem any better than the one in the US.

I would disagree.  People complain about waiting lists for some surgery, however, in reality, if I had cancer tomorrow, I could get treated straight away.

Not sure how our system works for tourists, although we have some reciprocal rights with the UK for treatments.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 23, 2007, 02:04:29 PM
I didn't mean healthcare for tourists. I was referring to how expensive it is. Also, I remember reading an article about how there is very little treatment for people with eating disorders in the Australian public health system, and a lot of Australians with eating disorders are dying because the public health system is failing them, and they can't afford private health care. Also, the waiting lists in the USA are usually for organs afaik, and people with cancer do get treated right away.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 23, 2007, 02:21:39 PM
I didn't mean healthcare for tourists. I was referring to how expensive it is. Also, I remember reading an article about how there is very little treatment for people with eating disorders in the Australian public health system, and a lot of Australians with eating disorders are dying because the public health system is failing them, and they can't afford private health care. Also, the waiting lists in the USA are usually for organs afaik, and people with cancer do get treated right away.

I explained what the rebates are, I don't think paying $20 ie; two packs of cigarettes is that expensive, myself.  People on pensions, disability, single parents etc, get a health care card so they get bulk billed for most things...ie; they pay nothing.

Australia is not top of the list in it's treatments of every disease, I don't think I said that anywhere. 

My impression is Americans complain their health insurance is too high and they can't get treatment unless they pay for it.  But maybe Americans just whinge generally  :P
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 23, 2007, 02:27:28 PM
I guess this must just be wrong also;

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 24, 2007, 12:06:58 AM
I didn't say there were no problems with the US healthcare system. (There are millions of Americans who are uninsured and many have to pay high copays.) I was just pointing out that Australia's isn't so wonderful. IMO no country seems to have a great system and everything is a tradeoff. In countries where everyone has access to healthcare, there are also longer waits at doctor's offices and a greater need for doctors.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 24, 2007, 03:10:02 AM
I didn't say there were no problems with the US healthcare system. (There are millions of Americans who are uninsured and many have to pay high copays.) I was just pointing out that Australia's isn't so wonderful. IMO no country seems to have a great system and everything is a tradeoff. In countries where everyone has access to healthcare, there are also longer waits at doctor's offices and a greater need for doctors.

I think this may be where I have been misunderstood throughout this thread.  I don't think I said Australia is BETTER than America...although of course I love my country for other reasons....I'm not politically keen on our Government at the moment however.

My original intent was to say that essentially America has spent a lot of money into living up to the " America is a super power" status.  I feel that money could have been spent elsewhere like on perhaps a more solid health system as an example off the top of my head.

I could also think of examples of where Australian Government could better spend their money also.

I have no idea why I have been called a cow, been told how bad Australia is, and all the rest of it.  I'm happy for discussion, but not narrow minded patriotism.  The comments I have made are written in a conversational tone, I don't see the need for being so agressive towards a general opinion. 
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 24, 2007, 11:42:21 AM

My original intent was to say that essentially America has spent a lot of money into living up to the " America is a super power" status.  I feel that money could have been spent elsewhere like on perhaps a more solid health system as an example off the top of my head.

There's a problem with letting go of this though.
I just don't see it happening without something
terrible. I'm not at all sure why nations have to
put on the acts that they do, but I do have a
fair idea of the rules of the game.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on July 24, 2007, 01:25:16 PM
I didn't say there were no problems with the US healthcare system. (There are millions of Americans who are uninsured and many have to pay high copays.) I was just pointing out that Australia's isn't so wonderful. IMO no country seems to have a great system and everything is a tradeoff. In countries where everyone has access to healthcare, there are also longer waits at doctor's offices and a greater need for doctors.

I think this may be where I have been misunderstood throughout this thread.  I don't think I said Australia is BETTER than America...although of course I love my country for other reasons....I'm not politically keen on our Government at the moment however.

My original intent was to say that essentially America has spent a lot of money into living up to the " America is a super power" status.  I feel that money could have been spent elsewhere like on perhaps a more solid health system as an example off the top of my head.

I could also think of examples of where Australian Government could better spend their money also.

I have no idea why I have been called a cow, been told how bad Australia is, and all the rest of it.  I'm happy for discussion, but not narrow minded patriotism.  The comments I have made are written in a conversational tone, I don't see the need for being so agressive towards a general opinion. 

That makes sense. I never said Australia was bad though (not sure if that was directed at me or not); I loved it there and want to go back one day.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on July 25, 2007, 05:50:19 AM
I'm glad that eventually my intent was understood!

Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Dexter Morgan on July 25, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
It pisses me off that Bush spends so much money on the military when that money could be used for helping people in Africa and other nations that could use it. It is such a fucking waste...we could be helping people, but instead we're destroying them.  >:(
Well at least he has tripled aid to Africa.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941_pf.html)
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 25, 2007, 11:56:54 AM
It pisses me off that Bush spends so much money on the military when that money could be used for helping people in Africa and other nations that could use it. It is such a fucking waste...we could be helping people, but instead we're destroying them.  >:(
Well a least he has tripled aid to Africa.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941_pf.html)
I wonder what strings were attached to that aid...
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Dexter Morgan on July 25, 2007, 12:04:09 PM
It pisses me off that Bush spends so much money on the military when that money could be used for helping people in Africa and other nations that could use it. It is such a fucking waste...we could be helping people, but instead we're destroying them.  >:(
Well a least he has tripled aid to Africa.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941_pf.html)
I wonder what strings were attached to that aid...
Probably
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 25, 2007, 12:31:42 PM
Nicely put. :clap:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 25, 2007, 12:33:09 PM
I wonder if these strings include an elastic band to pull the money back when the Africans attempt to grab it...
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 25, 2007, 12:44:32 PM
Like when the warlords with guns steal the aid from the helpless villiagers as usual?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 25, 2007, 01:03:27 PM
Like when the warlords with guns steal the aid from the helpless villiagers as usual?
Well there is that, and there is the fact that all the aid will no doubt have to be spent of products from US companies sold at inflated prices as well.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 25, 2007, 01:09:00 PM
Like when the warlords with guns steal the aid from the helpless villiagers as usual?
Well there is that, and there is the fact that all the aid will no doubt have to be spent of products from US companies sold at inflated prices as well.

Then those products will be stolen by warlords with guns.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 25, 2007, 02:32:07 PM
Like when the warlords with guns steal the aid from the helpless villiagers as usual?
Well there is that, and there is the fact that all the aid will no doubt have to be spent of products from US companies sold at inflated prices as well.

Then those products will be stolen by warlords with guns.
Oh yeah, with guns that the americans and others will have shipped to them via the back door. Have you seen a film called Lord of War?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 25, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Like when the warlords with guns steal the aid from the helpless villiagers as usual?
Well there is that, and there is the fact that all the aid will no doubt have to be spent of products from US companies sold at inflated prices as well.

Then those products will be stolen by warlords with guns.
Oh yeah, with guns that the americans and others will have shipped to them via the back door. Have you seen a film called Lord of War?

I know of it, but never watched it.   Most of the illegal arms dealers I know are Chinese or Russians selling AK-47s. 

The nations of Africa were never US colonies though.   I wonder who let those warlords get in charge in the first place?   Say hello to DeBeers for me.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: DirtDawg on July 25, 2007, 04:13:52 PM

I can't plus you this soon, but you GO!
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Christopher McCandless on July 25, 2007, 04:41:17 PM
Like when the warlords with guns steal the aid from the helpless villiagers as usual?
Well there is that, and there is the fact that all the aid will no doubt have to be spent of products from US companies sold at inflated prices as well.

Then those products will be stolen by warlords with guns.
Oh yeah, with guns that the americans and others will have shipped to them via the back door. Have you seen a film called Lord of War?

I know of it, but never watched it.   Most of the illegal arms dealers I know are Chinese or Russians selling AK-47s. 

The nations of Africa were never US colonies though.   I wonder who let those warlords get in charge in the first place?   Say hello to DeBeers for me.
We did, we refuse to intervine millatilly, like in Zimbabwe because we were a former colonial power and would get accused of reinstating imprailism. Who do you think is behind the arm dealers, the US and Europe has a wonderful history of doing things like arming both sides in conflicts etc.  Oh and watch Lord of War, its a brilliant movie. It might be on torrent...
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 26, 2007, 08:50:46 AM
So Britain wants the US to help clean up its messes, fucking weak excuse for reinstating imperialism?   Lets just let the US be world police and take the blame for us right?   Who put the Hussein family in charge of Iraq?   How about putting the Jews in Palestine?  Oh wait that was Britain, they gave Saddam the gas he used on his own people to boot.    France sponsored Israel's nuclear program and helped them develop the technology used in their plants.    The mess that is the former Mesopotamia is mostly to blame on those countries.   I am sure France has done a great job with Lebanon and Syria lol.

Yeah I will believe mainstream Hollywood when its films are made by people who are at least borderline intelligent and can make their own intellectual properties without having to rely on raping the content of books.    I doubt the script of Lord of War has much credibility, maybe I will watch it someday when I am caring about movies more.  It stars Nicholas Cage lol.   A private US citizen selling arms illlegally isn't hard to imagine at all.   The US government has been arming people for years of course.   Nothing like some other coutries though, but we get the loudest complaints.    Every time I see someone in Somalia or some other third world nation carrying a gun it is a AK-47, guess what the US government doesn't make or sell AK-47s.    Chinese and Russian black market arms dealers sure as hell do. 
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Teejay on July 26, 2007, 08:55:39 AM
America's war in Iraq has so far has been a failure.

Ideologically the war has been a mess, the great moral goal of bringing freedom to the Iraq people and by freedom flourishing there, would help to bring freedom to Syria and Iran. For example Christians in Iraq say they were safer under Saddam Hussein because he did not persecute them for being Christians, nowadays Muslims are attacking them on a constant basis.

In the long run the country is going to splinter with an independent Kurdistan, Sunni state in the middle and an Iranian client Shia state in the South. Instead of weakening the Iranian regime it is going to be strengthen by what they could not do during the Iran-Iraq war by having an client state in Iraq.

The Coalition forces should have allowed the Iraqi regular forces to help in keeping order in the country after Saddam was toppled, it would prevented a lot of the troubles of the last 4 years. The Coalition should have made it clear that Iraq become a country with a secular constitution which explicitly rejects even paying lip service to Sharia, defends the equality of all under the law (which includes freedom of religion).
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Alex179 on July 26, 2007, 09:01:12 AM
It has been stated many times as fact that the war in Iraq is a massive failure.   They will end up having to partition the nation into one area for Sunni, one for Shiite, and another maybe for Kurds.    Then those areas/nations will eventually war eachother a year or so after the US leaves anyways.   The reason why things were more stable under Saddam is that they feared him.   To get to those people you have to really scare the living shit out of them.   Gassing 100k Kurds with gas the Brits sold you did the trick.   That and letting your son kidnap and rape women, then put their husbands in iron maidens.   That gains respect and power in the Islamic world it seems.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Teejay on July 26, 2007, 08:48:01 PM
The war with it's aim of overthrowing Saddam Hussein was a good thing, however the peace has been badly managed. Even dividing the country would be a good thing. However an Iranian client state in Shia region of Iraq, which could happen is not.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on July 27, 2007, 04:35:15 AM
Even dividing the country would be a good thing.

Talk about a way of driving Turkey away from
us. The only fucking Islamic democracy.

Yeah, that would rock.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Teejay on August 23, 2007, 10:47:08 PM
It all looked so promising.  The US had mastered the atom and nuked Japan into submission.  The hard sciences were widely respected and scientists revered.  The old days of witch-burning seemed a thing of the past as the US embraced scientific endeavour as never before.

60 years on, we have this:

Quote from: http://templeofpolemic.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=theo&action=print&thread=1130126466
Welcome to Idiot America.

LET'S TAKE A TOUR, shall we? For the sake of time, we'll just cover the last year or so. A federally funded abstinence program suggests that HIV can be transmitted through tears. An Alabama legislator proposes a bill to ban all books by gay authors. The Texas House passes a bill banning suggestive cheerleading. And nobody laughs at any of it, or even points out that, in the latter case, having Texas ban suggestive cheerleading is like having Nebraska ban corn. James Dobson, a prominent conservative Christian spokesman, compares the Supreme Court to the Ku Klux Klan. Pat Robertson, another prominent conservative preacher, says that federal judges are a more serious threat to the country than is Al Qaeda and, apparently taking his text from the Book of Gambino, later sermonizes that the United States should get with it and snuff the democratically elected president of Venezuela.

The Congress of the United States intervenes to extend into a televised spectacle the prolonged death of a woman in Florida. The majority leader of the Senate, a physician, pronounces a diagnosis based on heavily edited videotape. The majority leader of the House of Representatives argues against cutting-edge research into the use of human stem cells by saying that "an embryo is a person. . . . We were all at one time embryos ourselves. So was Abraham. So was Muhammad. So was Jesus of Nazareth." Nobody laughs at him or points out that the same could be said of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or whoever invented the baby-back rib.

And, finally, in August, the cover of Time —for almost a century the dyspeptic voice of the American establishment—clears its throat, hems and haws and hacks like a headmaster gagging on his sherry, and asks, quite seriously: "Does God have a place in science class?"

Fights over evolution—and its faddish new camouflage, intelligent design, a pseudoscience that posits without proof or method that science is inadequate to explain existence and that supernatural causes must be considered—roil up school districts across the country. The president of the United States announces that he believes ID ought to be taught in the public schools on an equal footing with the theory of evolution. And in Dover, Pennsylvania, during one of these many controversies, a pastor named Ray Mummert delivers the line that both ends our tour and, in every real sense, sums it up:

"We've been attacked," he says, "by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

What happened?

Well the US is the most religious country in the western world, something like 40% attend church every week and same number believe that everything in the bible is true. It is a Christian version of Iran. That explains things like people wanting christian creationism taught in the schools, nationwide movement to introduce abstinence only sex education in schools, one town in Louisiana banning low rider pants, furor over one singer accidentally flashing her tits live on TV. It also explains adjusting even for Blacks and Hispanics US birth rates are higher than other western country. Those religious folk have like 3 or 4 children*.

On top of that the USA has had a better experience of the 20th century, especially WW1 and WW2 than Europe did, it won both of them with relatively little cost and became much more powerful because of them. Americans are much more nationalistic than Europeans. A lot of Americans for example want the US to withdraw from the UN, seeing as a prop for America's enemies.

Interestingly enough the US political class are much more secular than the voting public, institutions like the supreme court have been overriding the wants of the religious folk and led to a lot of resentment of the courts, imposing unpopular decisions like banning creationism being taught in the schools or legalizing same sex marriage.

* I think in nations like UK, Australia and New Zealand it is also true regular church going folks have more childern, but they make up 5-10% of the population, we in those country might be seeing our futures when religious folks via their high birth rates get to around 30-40% of the population.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Eclair on August 24, 2007, 03:29:09 AM
Vomit.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on August 24, 2007, 04:49:38 AM
Vomit.
:plus:

I don't know why,
but that was too much to
deal with in my state.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: QuirkyCarla on August 24, 2007, 11:02:14 PM
Teejay and I need to trade places. He can live in the USA, and I'll live in Australia.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Rabbit From Hell on August 25, 2007, 12:46:32 PM
When it elected bIll cLinton.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Calandale on August 27, 2007, 06:41:22 AM
When it elected bIll cLinton.

Nah. Jackson was worse. Far worse.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 14, 2017, 06:37:20 AM
It all looked so promising.  The US had mastered the atom and nuked Japan into submission.  The hard sciences were widely respected and scientists revered.  The old days of witch-burning seemed a thing of the past as the US embraced scientific endeavour as never before.

60 years on, we have this:

Quote from: http://templeofpolemic.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=theo&action=print&thread=1130126466
Welcome to Idiot America.

We've been attacked," he says, "by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

What happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 14, 2017, 05:10:35 PM
That was interesting.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 14, 2017, 05:25:54 PM
And kinda frightening too.

If the cycle holds up there will be a major war in the next decade or so.

I forget how I stumbled across this, but it follows a saying/meme that has been popular on Facebook as of late.

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times".
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 14, 2017, 05:39:46 PM
Maybe the current war is the war.

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times".
That's a good quote.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 14, 2017, 10:25:21 PM
The site lists the war on terror as being part of the same phase of the cycle as WW2 and the American Civil war in previous cycles, but being in the midst of it, I have to agree it doesn't seem as all-encompassing. Maybe there's indeed worse to come.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 15, 2017, 12:54:30 AM
http://peterlevine.ws/?p=8143
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 15, 2017, 06:03:56 AM
http://peterlevine.ws/?p=8143

It would be interesting to test the personality types. Think the nomad description describes my generation well. GenX is the latch key kid generation, labeled as lost and unguided in youth, labeled independent and entrepreneurial as young adults, and now the stability of the modern-day workforce.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 15, 2017, 09:29:33 AM
http://peterlevine.ws/?p=8143

The critiques he applies to it are kind of short-sighted, though. Like pointing out the logical flaw in assigning people to 20-year generational blocks, where someone born on the cusp of one will supposedly more resemble someone born 19 years earlier than 1 year later. True, if it were strictly black and white, but tendencies like that are more likely to manifest as bell curves.

I'm also not clear on why he insists the generational theory must be a "better" predictor than birth year. One would assume there are smaller trends within each larger trend, and those could cause unexplained spikes.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 15, 2017, 05:14:50 PM
The critiques he applies to it are kind of short-sighted, though.
Didn't even view it as a critique. The article seemed to say, here's an explanation of the theory, someone should test the theory, someone other than the author should test it though, but here's an article about an idea of how to test it.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Lestat on November 15, 2017, 05:23:33 PM
Absolutely, raxy! because it isn't the year or period itself that causes any effects, its the circumstances prevailing WITHIN said time periods and such modifiers as the reasons for them and how they are reacted to, which are going to cause end effects; not simply 'oh, XYZ is from ABC generation', when they were born only influences what kinds of environment they are exposed to and in and of itself is not a direct causative agency.


As for smaller trends winthin larger ones, i agree; on the grounds that unless one specific factor is so highly determinative as to outcome, to in and of itself be the direct cause, the cause of any effect is likely to be an aggregate of multiple interplaying causes and effects of lesser magnitude, IMO its neither birth year or 'generational block', but the specific interplay of factors most prevalent in the environment of a given individual which relate to that individual.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 15, 2017, 06:04:54 PM
I feel like everyone in this thread is having their own individual conversation, so I don't understand what's being said.  :tard:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Lestat on November 15, 2017, 06:36:02 PM
You aren't setting the bar very high are you, fur-face? :P
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 15, 2017, 07:04:34 PM
You aren't setting the bar very high are you, fur-face? :P

I don't know. You seem to be agreeing with something Pyraxis doesn't even seem to be saying, so worry about your own bar.  :lol1:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 01:22:02 AM
Me, I guess I regard the whole thing as little more than a modern, pseudo-science version of Nostradamus with a fair degree of hindsight and self-fulfillment thrown in. Patterns are everywhere. It's in our nature to spot them. Correlation does not equal causation, though.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 16, 2017, 02:54:16 AM
Me, I guess I regard the whole thing as little more than a modern, pseudo-science version of Nostradamus with a fair degree of hindsight and self-fulfillment thrown in. Patterns are everywhere. It's in our nature to spot them. Correlation does not equal causation, though.

Yet another evidence free claim.

Given your propensity to attack ideas without evidence, while not offering any ideas of you own, I have to reiterate that you obviously masturbate to Derrida and Foucault.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 16, 2017, 03:00:40 AM
The critiques he applies to it are kind of short-sighted, though.
Didn't even view it as a critique. The article seemed to say, here's an explanation of the theory, someone should test the theory, someone other than the author should test it though, but here's an article about an idea of how to test it.

Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.

Look at the SJW's, there's not a whole lot of them but they exist in the most influential sectors of society: Mainstream media, Hollywood, the recording industry, online news outlets and in most major universities.

in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 16, 2017, 03:35:04 AM
The critiques he applies to it are kind of short-sighted, though.
Didn't even view it as a critique. The article seemed to say, here's an explanation of the theory, someone should test the theory, someone other than the author should test it though, but here's an article about an idea of how to test it.

Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.

Look at the SJW's, there's not a whole lot of them but they exist in the most influential sectors of society: Mainstream media, Hollywood, the recording industry, online news outlets and in most major universities.

in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....

I mostly agree. I do not think there is only a handful. In comparative terms there is enough of them to leverage society in a pretty horrific way. I think one of the craziest thing is that people wanting to avoid the ire of SJWs will pander to them and don't just say after every demand "No, Go fuck yourself" over and over.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 16, 2017, 09:50:12 AM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 12:43:35 PM
Me, I guess I regard the whole thing as little more than a modern, pseudo-science version of Nostradamus with a fair degree of hindsight and self-fulfillment thrown in. Patterns are everywhere. It's in our nature to spot them. Correlation does not equal causation, though.

Yet another evidence free claim.

Given your propensity to attack ideas without evidence, while not offering any ideas of you own, I have to reiterate that you obviously masturbate to Derrida and Foucault.

I provided an opinion. What you've done, otoh, is little more than providing a Wikipedia link. And follow up with things like this:

Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.

Look at the SJW's, there's not a whole lot of them but they exist in the most influential sectors of society: Mainstream media, Hollywood, the recording industry, online news outlets and in most major universities.

in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....


Is this what you call evidence? Not only is it mostly opinion, what isn't is wrong:

Quote
in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....

This is where you supply your excuses and pitiful attempts at an explanation. :yawn:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 16, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Me, I guess I regard the whole thing as little more than a modern, pseudo-science version of Nostradamus with a fair degree of hindsight and self-fulfillment thrown in. Patterns are everywhere. It's in our nature to spot them. Correlation does not equal causation, though.

Yet another evidence free claim.

Given your propensity to attack ideas without evidence, while not offering any ideas of you own, I have to reiterate that you obviously masturbate to Derrida and Foucault.

I provided an opinion. What you've done, otoh, is little more than providing a Wikipedia link. And follow up with things like this:

Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.

Look at the SJW's, there's not a whole lot of them but they exist in the most influential sectors of society: Mainstream media, Hollywood, the recording industry, online news outlets and in most major universities.

in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....


Is this what you call evidence? Not only is it mostly opinion, what isn't is wrong:

Quote
in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....

This is where you supply your excuses and pitiful attempts at an explanation. :yawn:

To be fair,  what Scrap says is a little overgeneralised but it seems a reasonable theory. I also agree that it does not take a majority to elicit change, and sometimes that change is terribly harmful for society.

People have great propensity for self-sacrifice and battling adversity but also for greed and self-interest. When things are hard there is little energy to put into victimology and plubing deep philosophical questions. When things are free and life is good, social parasites will breed.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 16, 2017, 04:40:19 PM
Me, I guess I regard the whole thing as little more than a modern, pseudo-science version of Nostradamus with a fair degree of hindsight and self-fulfillment thrown in. Patterns are everywhere. It's in our nature to spot them. Correlation does not equal causation, though.

Yet another evidence free claim.

Given your propensity to attack ideas without evidence, while not offering any ideas of you own, I have to reiterate that you obviously masturbate to Derrida and Foucault.

I provided an opinion.

No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Quote
Is this what you call evidence? Not only is it mostly opinion, what isn't is wrong:

Quote
in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....

This is where you supply your excuses and pitiful attempts at an explanation. :yawn:

In 1933, the German population was at 65,362,115. Nazi Party membership was at slightly over 2 million which means that just 3% of the population were actual Nazis.

Fuck, are you this stupid??
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2017, 04:54:37 PM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2017, 05:18:08 PM
Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.
Didn't think the test idea was terrible, because it starts with a sampling of people who are 'notable', which probably also means influential. The 80% agreement wasn't a standard for the results, but rather a standard for 80% of the coders to agree what is the best archetype to assign to a person in the sampling.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2017, 05:33:56 PM
pseudo-science
Sociological theory kind of is what it is.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 16, 2017, 07:11:46 PM
Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.
Didn't think the test idea was terrible, because it starts with a sampling of people who are 'notable', which probably also means influential. The 80% agreement wasn't a standard for the results, but rather a standard for 80% of the coders to agree what is the best archetype to assign to a person in the sampling.

Yeah, Notable doesn't necessary translate into Influential, I think you'd have to limit the study to those who were known to be influential for their times.

Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2017, 08:57:15 PM
Exactly, However I don't agree with the standards that they use there.

It doesn't take a majority of a personality type to influence society.
Didn't think the test idea was terrible, because it starts with a sampling of people who are 'notable', which probably also means influential. The 80% agreement wasn't a standard for the results, but rather a standard for 80% of the coders to agree what is the best archetype to assign to a person in the sampling.

Yeah, Notable doesn't necessary translate into Influential, I think you'd have to limit the study to those who were known to be influential for their times.
Took a closer look at The American National Biography and it's for historical figures, so it's probably a good resource to find a good random sampling of influential people who are representative of their era, and spanning across the entire time scope of the theory.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 01:00:34 AM
Me, I guess I regard the whole thing as little more than a modern, pseudo-science version of Nostradamus with a fair degree of hindsight and self-fulfillment thrown in. Patterns are everywhere. It's in our nature to spot them. Correlation does not equal causation, though.

Yet another evidence free claim.

Given your propensity to attack ideas without evidence, while not offering any ideas of you own, I have to reiterate that you obviously masturbate to Derrida and Foucault.

I provided an opinion.

No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Quote
Is this what you call evidence? Not only is it mostly opinion, what isn't is wrong:

Quote
in the 1930's only a handful of Germans were Nazis....

This is where you supply your excuses and pitiful attempts at an explanation. :yawn:

In 1933, the German population was at 65,362,115. Nazi Party membership was at slightly over 2 million which means that just 3% of the population were actual Nazis.

Fuck, are you this stupid??

Two million = a handful  :hahaha:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 01:03:49 AM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 01:14:55 AM
No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Why do you apply one set of standards to me and another to yourself?

I know what I posted, and why. You don't.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 17, 2017, 05:27:36 AM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.
Isn't hindsight supposed to be 20/20? :laugh: Still not sure what that's supposed to imply. Looking for a pattern and finding one doesn't negate the pattern. Sociological theories are based in hindsight and patterns; there's not much avoiding that.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 17, 2017, 05:57:29 AM
No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Why do you apply one set of standards to me and another to yourself?

I know what I posted, and why. You don't.

I disagree. (NO I am not "having a go")

Scrap has the ability to undercut himself and his premises by generalisations or looking at things a little selectively. That may be a little on him. HOWEVER, though it may mean that exceptions to his blanket claims or that things may need to be made less generalisation and more specific, these are not a denunciation of his claims.

For example, Him saying that it does not require a majority of society to change the society and culture and that a large minority can do this well, such as the well established SJWs in Media, Academia, and Hollywood or the handful of Nazis that took over Germany.

Now to say "There were not a handful of Nazis because there were 2 million is deliberately missing the thrust of what is a good argument to haggle over a redundant claim (which I also disagree with). He does not care to haggle over minutiae and that one point does not negate his argument nor does it mean his points on the matter are stupid. As with most of his claims of this nature, he is broad right or broadly the topic is worth considering irrespective of whether he disclaims every exception and anomaly and whether he is specific or not.

Scrap is smart. Not sure how he stacks up here but he is not the dumbest and no one here is particularly dumb.

Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: El on November 17, 2017, 06:54:42 AM
http://peterlevine.ws/?p=8143
Took me a little hunting around to be totally sure he wasn't the same guys as this guy:  https://somaticexperiencing.com/category/about-peter/

(also, another site with text in raleway!)
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 17, 2017, 08:37:12 AM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.

If you're schizophrenic. If you're not, you've got a better chance of discerning a valid pattern from a wishful one.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 02:02:02 PM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.
Isn't hindsight supposed to be 20/20? :laugh: Still not sure what that's supposed to imply. Looking for a pattern and finding one doesn't negate the pattern. Sociological theories are based in hindsight and patterns; there's not much avoiding that.

To put it slightly differently: there are about five or six thousand visible stars in the night sky. Connecting a few of them to form suitable patterns was not a difficult task for our ancestors and there were still many left. This is pretty much the same. You find patterns because you are looking for them. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 02:16:20 PM
No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Why do you apply one set of standards to me and another to yourself?

I know what I posted, and why. You don't.

I disagree. (NO I am not "having a go")

Scrap has the ability to undercut himself and his premises by generalisations or looking at things a little selectively. That may be a little on him. HOWEVER, though it may mean that exceptions to his blanket claims or that things may need to be made less generalisation and more specific, these are not a denunciation of his claims.

For example, Him saying that it does not require a majority of society to change the society and culture and that a large minority can do this well, such as the well established SJWs in Media, Academia, and Hollywood or the handful of Nazis that took over Germany.

Now to say "There were not a handful of Nazis because there were 2 million is deliberately missing the thrust of what is a good argument to haggle over a redundant claim (which I also disagree with). He does not care to haggle over minutiae and that one point does not negate his argument nor does it mean his points on the matter are stupid. As with most of his claims of this nature, he is broad right or broadly the topic is worth considering irrespective of whether he disclaims every exception and anomaly and whether he is specific or not.

Scrap is smart. Not sure how he stacks up here but he is not the dumbest and no one here is particularly dumb.

"A handful of Nazis" is a rubbish argument because the premise is misleading: two million is not a handful, regardless of how you see it, and those were just the registered members. In 1933, the party got around 40% of the votes (I don't remember the numbers more precisely and can't be arsed to look them up), so they had plenty of supporters. You don't have to be registered to be a Nazi, you only have to vote for them.

But it's also misleading because the sentiment of the suggestion is that a significant portion of the German were somehow actively opposed to them (as in "not Nazis while aware of the situation") and that's just not true.

So no; you may think that Scrap is smart but I disagree. He is a lot of hot air, a lot of internet wisdom, but very little actual insight.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 02:19:54 PM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.

If you're schizophrenic. If you're not, you've got a better chance of discerning a valid pattern from a wishful one.

Oh yes, but our pattern matching capabilities are significant, regardless. I don't know if it is a hardware feature or just the OS, but it's how our brains get by. It's how we can ignore a hole in our field of vision, just to pick one example.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 17, 2017, 06:10:46 PM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.
Isn't hindsight supposed to be 20/20? :laugh: Still not sure what that's supposed to imply. Looking for a pattern and finding one doesn't negate the pattern. Sociological theories are based in hindsight and patterns; there's not much avoiding that.

To put it slightly differently: there are about five or six thousand visible stars in the night sky. Connecting a few of them to form suitable patterns was not a difficult task for our ancestors and there were still many left. This is pretty much the same. You find patterns because you are looking for them. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.
Still not sure what you're trying to say. Sociology is crap? Probably on some level, sure.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 17, 2017, 08:48:05 PM
From bondage to spiritual faith;
 from spiritual faith to great courage;
 from courage to liberty;
 from liberty to abundance;
 from abundance to selfishness;
 from selfishness to apathy;
 from apathy to dependence;
 from dependency back again into bondage."
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 18, 2017, 05:06:42 AM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.
Isn't hindsight supposed to be 20/20? :laugh: Still not sure what that's supposed to imply. Looking for a pattern and finding one doesn't negate the pattern. Sociological theories are based in hindsight and patterns; there's not much avoiding that.

To put it slightly differently: there are about five or six thousand visible stars in the night sky. Connecting a few of them to form suitable patterns was not a difficult task for our ancestors and there were still many left. This is pretty much the same. You find patterns because you are looking for them. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.
Still not sure what you're trying to say. Sociology is crap? Probably on some level, sure.

I'm saying that most theories like this one probably are.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 18, 2017, 06:57:32 PM
I think looking at what people have picked out for generational patterns is food for thought, whether or not there's any direction causation.

Agreed. Even if it's 500 years of coincidence, it's still very interesting.

It's 500 years of hindsight. If you're looking for patterns, you will find them. It's how our brains work.
Isn't hindsight supposed to be 20/20? :laugh: Still not sure what that's supposed to imply. Looking for a pattern and finding one doesn't negate the pattern. Sociological theories are based in hindsight and patterns; there's not much avoiding that.

To put it slightly differently: there are about five or six thousand visible stars in the night sky. Connecting a few of them to form suitable patterns was not a difficult task for our ancestors and there were still many left. This is pretty much the same. You find patterns because you are looking for them. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.
Still not sure what you're trying to say. Sociology is crap? Probably on some level, sure.

I'm saying that most theories like this one probably are.

Didn't even know there's other theories like this one. Is there something about it that strikes as incorrect?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 19, 2017, 03:32:52 AM
Beyond the 500-year hindsight, you mean?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 19, 2017, 08:14:20 AM
Beyond the 500-year hindsight, you mean?
Yes. 500 years of hindsight doesn't make it incorrect or invalidate anything about it. Hindsight is not a critique of the theory, but rather sociological theory in general because the past is all anyone can study. Help me out here. This is the only conversation this place has going for it right now.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Minister Of Silly Walks on November 19, 2017, 08:31:47 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Not a criticism of the theory. Which may be perfectly valid. More an adjunct to the side discussion on humans' ability to find patterns where no real patterns exist.

The word for it is apophenia.

Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 19, 2017, 09:00:23 AM
From bondage to spiritual faith;
 from spiritual faith to great courage;
 from courage to liberty;
 from liberty to abundance;
 from abundance to selfishness;
 from selfishness to apathy;
 from apathy to dependence;
 from dependency back again into bondage."
Thinking there's a lot of truth in that. Don't particularly like sociology or history, nor believe the US ebbs and flows so precisely. It's still an interesting theory though and also seems to have a level of truth in it; especially liking the archetypes. However don't agree with how the millennial generation is classified. 1990-2008 is considered one of the more prosperous eras in the US. The archetype of the hero better describes them as born during a high, over indulged youth and the self-absorbed crusades of young adults. And how does the social crisis of the Vietnam war fit in? While agreeing genX fits well in the scheme as born during an awakening, it seems the crisis of war was the driver of that awakening for the young adult boomer generation.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 19, 2017, 09:36:23 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Not a criticism of the theory. Which may be perfectly valid. More an adjunct to the side discussion on humans' ability to find patterns where no real patterns exist.

The word for it is apophenia.
Not really denying that, but would rather to see the pattern dismantled if it doesn't really exist.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 19, 2017, 11:17:14 AM
Thinking there's a lot of truth in that. Don't particularly like sociology or history, nor believe the US ebbs and flows so precisely. It's still an interesting theory though and also seems to have a level of truth in it; especially liking the archetypes. However don't agree with how the millennial generation is classified. 1990-2008 is considered one of the more prosperous eras in the US. The archetype of the hero better describes them as born during a high, over indulged youth and the self-absorbed crusades of young adults.

But upon reaching teenagehood or adulthood, depending on whether you're talking about early or late gen Millenials, they stepped into economic disillusionment. It's interesting to watch because on one hand there are all the online social justice movements, which seem like a symptom of an overindulged and self-absorbed generation, but on the other hand there is a ton of anger and despair over the lack of opportunity and the pressure from older generations to reach arbitrary milestones (ie buying a house) that are no longer feasible. That seems more like people who grew up in the 1920's and then got hit with the Depression.

Too, with 9/11 and the war on terror - I'm not quite young enough to be a proper Millenial, but 9/11 was on my college welcome day and set the tone for the rest of the four years. Most male peers I talked to were worried about being drafted or coming up with plans of varying levels of plausibility of how to avoid it. There wasn't the drive for entrepreneurship and wild tech success like in the 80's and 90's, people were far more concerned about getting a job that paid the bills.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 19, 2017, 11:55:44 AM
Thinking there's a lot of truth in that. Don't particularly like sociology or history, nor believe the US ebbs and flows so precisely. It's still an interesting theory though and also seems to have a level of truth in it; especially liking the archetypes. However don't agree with how the millennial generation is classified. 1990-2008 is considered one of the more prosperous eras in the US. The archetype of the hero better describes them as born during a high, over indulged youth and the self-absorbed crusades of young adults.

But upon reaching teenagehood or adulthood, depending on whether you're talking about early or late gen Millenials, they stepped into economic disillusionment. It's interesting to watch because on one hand there are all the online social justice movements, which seem like a symptom of an overindulged and self-absorbed generation, but on the other hand there is a ton of anger and despair over the lack of opportunity and the pressure from older generations to reach arbitrary milestones (ie buying a house) that are no longer feasible. That seems more like people who grew up in the 1920's and then got hit with the Depression.

Too, with 9/11 and the war on terror - I'm not quite young enough to be a proper Millenial, but 9/11 was on my college welcome day and set the tone for the rest of the four years. Most male peers I talked to were worried about being drafted or coming up with plans of varying levels of plausibility of how to avoid it. There wasn't the drive for entrepreneurship and wild tech success like in the 80's and 90's, people were far more concerned about getting a job that paid the bills.
That seems to support what I said about the millenials not fitting. The graph line for the millenials notes the era they were children. The unraveling labeled time frame when millennials were born was actually a high, and it could be said the theory supports the current day time frame for young adult millennial could be an awakening following the high, rather than the crisis label it's given. However they're young adults in a time of economic weakness and high distrust of leadership noted for an unraveling, while their activism fits the awakening after the high. Though guess the point could be made, like the Vietnam war, the current war and economy means the US went from a high straight back into crisis again. Or the occurrance of war happening after a high means society is unraveling during their self-centered awakening.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 19, 2017, 11:47:06 PM
Beyond the 500-year hindsight, you mean?
Yes. 500 years of hindsight doesn't make it incorrect or invalidate anything about it. Hindsight is not a critique of the theory, but rather sociological theory in general because the past is all anyone can study. Help me out here. This is the only conversation this place has going for it right now.

:laugh:

OK. What I'm trying to say is that it's nowhere near an objective study, it cannot be, because history as sampling material is already rigged. We don't have the objective facts, we have weighted samples. History is already presented through a number of lenses and, depending on what we are looking for in time or place, different ones. For any scientifically valid study, this spells disaster.

My background is in physics and for pretty much any experiment in physics, this sort of thing is basic stuff. It's about getting your lab settings right. This is how cold fusion happened in physics, a couple of years ago.

Add to the rigged samples the human brain's propensity for pattern-matching, we have a very high risk for what I'd label as wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 20, 2017, 12:50:19 AM
Physics and sociology surely don't mix, any more than physics and psychology.  :LOL:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 20, 2017, 12:48:25 PM
Physics and sociology surely don't mix, any more than physics and psychology.  :LOL:

 :lol1:

The problem with sociology is its frequent lack of stringency. It's why theories like this pop up.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 20, 2017, 04:50:55 PM
Beyond the 500-year hindsight, you mean?
Yes. 500 years of hindsight doesn't make it incorrect or invalidate anything about it. Hindsight is not a critique of the theory, but rather sociological theory in general because the past is all anyone can study. Help me out here. This is the only conversation this place has going for it right now.

:laugh:

OK. What I'm trying to say is that it's nowhere near an objective study, it cannot be, because history as sampling material is already rigged. We don't have the objective facts, we have weighted samples. History is already presented through a number of lenses and, depending on what we are looking for in time or place, different ones. For any scientifically valid study, this spells disaster.

My background is in physics and for pretty much any experiment in physics, this sort of thing is basic stuff. It's about getting your lab settings right. This is how cold fusion happened in physics, a couple of years ago.

Add to the rigged samples the human brain's propensity for pattern-matching, we have a very high risk for what I'd label as wishful thinking.
Yes, sociology has limitations in how objective or scientific it can be. However, have been trying really hard to get you to step away from that and critique the content of this theory rather than critiquing the field of study, or critiquing human nature. I came up with an actual critique; the technology boom is incorrectly labeled and doesn't fit the pattern. :M
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 20, 2017, 05:49:22 PM
The problem with sociology is its frequent lack of stringency. It's why theories like this pop up.

That may be like saying the problem with art is its frequent lack of straight lines.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 20, 2017, 06:46:55 PM
Beyond the 500-year hindsight, you mean?
Yes. 500 years of hindsight doesn't make it incorrect or invalidate anything about it. Hindsight is not a critique of the theory, but rather sociological theory in general because the past is all anyone can study. Help me out here. This is the only conversation this place has going for it right now.

:laugh:

OK. What I'm trying to say is that it's nowhere near an objective study, it cannot be, because history as sampling material is already rigged. We don't have the objective facts, we have weighted samples. History is already presented through a number of lenses and, depending on what we are looking for in time or place, different ones. For any scientifically valid study, this spells disaster.

My background is in physics and for pretty much any experiment in physics, this sort of thing is basic stuff. It's about getting your lab settings right. This is how cold fusion happened in physics, a couple of years ago.

Add to the rigged samples the human brain's propensity for pattern-matching, we have a very high risk for what I'd label as wishful thinking.
Yes, sociology has limitations in how objective or scientific it can be. However, have been trying really hard to get you to step away from that and critique the content of this theory rather than critiquing the field of study, or critiquing human nature. I came up with an actual critique; the technology boom is incorrectly labeled and doesn't fit the pattern. :M

Yes much like how Psychology and the disciplines from it that brought relief to shell shock victims of war also makes many abstract associations of penis envy.

Sociology and Psychology I have long been critical of for surprisingly the same things Odeon has brought up. I do not consider them objectively true or their theories often "provable" in the same ways that hard sciences do even though they attempt to use similar methodologies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKn3PnXeF-A  From 5:50 is a point really attuned to what I say here

However, I think neither can be dismissed out of hand or as all theories being equally as bad.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Minister Of Silly Walks on November 20, 2017, 07:12:30 PM
I’m not particularly familiar with sociology, so I’m not likely to come up with some blazing insight that reviewers and critics of this work have missed.

First thing I notice is that the length of generations is extremely rubbery, between 16 and 29 years for the generations presented on Wikipedia. It’s almost as if those lengths are adjusted to make the available information fit the theory. Okay, not almost – that appears to be exactly what they have done.

In more general terms, it seems to me like each generation looks down on the next couple of generations for lacking the attributes or the struggles that they think made their generation awesome. That probably has as much influence on how we see each generation as anything else. Just a little pattern I’ve noticed.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 20, 2017, 07:23:09 PM
Beyond the 500-year hindsight, you mean?
Yes. 500 years of hindsight doesn't make it incorrect or invalidate anything about it. Hindsight is not a critique of the theory, but rather sociological theory in general because the past is all anyone can study. Help me out here. This is the only conversation this place has going for it right now.

:laugh:

OK. What I'm trying to say is that it's nowhere near an objective study, it cannot be, because history as sampling material is already rigged. We don't have the objective facts, we have weighted samples. History is already presented through a number of lenses and, depending on what we are looking for in time or place, different ones. For any scientifically valid study, this spells disaster.

My background is in physics and for pretty much any experiment in physics, this sort of thing is basic stuff. It's about getting your lab settings right. This is how cold fusion happened in physics, a couple of years ago.

Add to the rigged samples the human brain's propensity for pattern-matching, we have a very high risk for what I'd label as wishful thinking.
Yes, sociology has limitations in how objective or scientific it can be. However, have been trying really hard to get you to step away from that and critique the content of this theory rather than critiquing the field of study, or critiquing human nature. I came up with an actual critique; the technology boom is incorrectly labeled and doesn't fit the pattern. :M

Yes much like how Psychology and the disciplines from it that brought relief to shell shock victims of war also makes many abstract associations of penis envy.

Sociology and Psychology I have long been critical of for surprisingly the same things Odeon has brought up. I do not consider them objectively true or their theories often "provable" in the same ways that hard sciences do even though they attempt to use similar methodologies.

(video removed)

However, I think neither can be dismissed out of hand or as all theories being equally as bad.
But who cares what's wrong with sociology? What's wrong with sociology isn't necessarily what's wrong with this particular theory. The table rows for the missionary and lost generations also appear problematic. The gilded age was about a thirty year time span of rapid growth and prosperity in the US, with the most prosperous being the last twenty years of 1880-1990. While the second industrial revolution began producing economic growth in 1860, the most prosperous industrial years of the gilded age are not classified as a high, but rather an awakening after a high. If 1860-1882 qualifies as a high, then the full two generations of 1860-1900 should qualify as a high. I'll dismantle this pattern myself. :M
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 20, 2017, 07:39:18 PM
First thing I notice is that the length of generations is extremely rubbery, between 16 and 29 years for the generations presented on Wikipedia. It’s almost as if those lengths are adjusted to make the available information fit the theory. Okay, not almost – that appears to be exactly what they have done.
Generation time spans can sometimes vary slightly by source, but the generation years column seems accurate enough compared to Wikipedia dates. Though do agree with information adjusted to fit the theory, because while the generation spans seem correct, some of the developments during those time frames don't fit well.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 20, 2017, 07:57:32 PM
most prosperous industrial years of the gilded age are not classified as a high, but rather an awakening after a high.
Just realized all of the awakening periods in the table are previously established periods of religious growth, so the author of this theory appears to have used that, regardless of whatever else might have been happening at the time that wasn't related to religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 20, 2017, 08:22:49 PM
First thing I notice is that the length of generations is extremely rubbery, between 16 and 29 years for the generations presented on Wikipedia. It’s almost as if those lengths are adjusted to make the available information fit the theory. Okay, not almost – that appears to be exactly what they have done.
Generation time spans can sometimes vary slightly by source, but the generation years column seems accurate enough compared to Wikipedia dates. Though do agree with information adjusted to fit the theory, because while the generation spans seem correct, some of the developments during those time frames don't fit well.

I took "generation" to be when a child was born up to the time they were likely to have children of their own. Accounting for historical and cultural changes and getting rid of outliers this 16-29 seems about right
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 20, 2017, 09:57:23 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 20, 2017, 10:04:32 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

You guys did???

Why the Hell did you do that?  :autism: :angel:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 21, 2017, 10:04:26 AM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

Oh is that why there's no Mrs. Gopher?

:wanker:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 21, 2017, 01:18:31 PM
The problem with sociology is its frequent lack of stringency. It's why theories like this pop up.

That may be like saying the problem with art is its frequent lack of straight lines.

Is it, though? What if the straight lines are needed?

To me, the theory reminds me of Asimov's Foundation Trilogy's concept of pshychohistory. It's entertaining but ultimately probably not possible.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 21, 2017, 01:19:59 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

:trollface:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Icequeen on November 21, 2017, 03:24:44 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

Damn... I could really go for some gopher stew right about now.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 21, 2017, 05:07:07 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

You guys did???

Why the Hell did you do that?  :autism: :angel:

It probably had something to do with nagging.  :zoinks:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 21, 2017, 05:08:37 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

Oh is that why there's no Mrs. Gopher?

:wanker:

That and my fondness for the pene.  :zoinks:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 21, 2017, 05:08:57 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

Damn... I could really go for some gopher stew right about now.

So then get in the kitchen and make some.  :zoinks:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 21, 2017, 05:09:27 PM
I think the US screwed up when we started allowing women to vote.  :zoinks:

:trollface:

 :zoinks:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Lestat on November 21, 2017, 05:29:48 PM
Where did the US screw up?

When the colonists left england and lost their way. In other words...where did they screw up?

The 'where' is commonly referred to as 'north america'.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Minister Of Silly Walks on November 22, 2017, 01:58:36 AM
First thing I notice is that the length of generations is extremely rubbery, between 16 and 29 years for the generations presented on Wikipedia. It’s almost as if those lengths are adjusted to make the available information fit the theory. Okay, not almost – that appears to be exactly what they have done.
Generation time spans can sometimes vary slightly by source, but the generation years column seems accurate enough compared to Wikipedia dates. Though do agree with information adjusted to fit the theory, because while the generation spans seem correct, some of the developments during those time frames don't fit well.

Look at the sources for those Wikipedia dates for most of the generations listed. Most of the generations prior to the Silent Generation and the Baby Boomers were invented by Howe and Strauss. The Millennial Generation, or at least the name for that generation, was also invented by Howe and Strauss. I'm pretty sure that most people didn't conceptualise generations the way we do today 100, 200 or 300 years ago (although some apparently did).

I would be interested in how Strauss and Howe came up with those rubbery start-and-finish dates for the generations. I suspect that it is part of how they made the available data appear to fit their theory. I'd probably need to read their books in order to confirm that, but that isn't going to happen.

I'd also like to see the data that they started with and how they determined which data to use. How much of their characterisation of each generation was based opinion and how much was based on hard data?

The thing is that sociology is not a hard science and should not be judged in the same way as, for example, physics. BUT data analysis is a hard science and should be judged accordingly.

A quick google finds plenty of criticism of the theory. Here is one that contains links to a couple of other articles: https://qz.com/970646/the-world-has-already-bought-into-steve-bannons-apocalyptic-ideology/
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 22, 2017, 05:45:11 PM
First thing I notice is that the length of generations is extremely rubbery, between 16 and 29 years for the generations presented on Wikipedia. It’s almost as if those lengths are adjusted to make the available information fit the theory. Okay, not almost – that appears to be exactly what they have done.
Generation time spans can sometimes vary slightly by source, but the generation years column seems accurate enough compared to Wikipedia dates. Though do agree with information adjusted to fit the theory, because while the generation spans seem correct, some of the developments during those time frames don't fit well.

Look at the sources for those Wikipedia dates for most of the generations listed. Most of the generations prior to the Silent Generation and the Baby Boomers were invented by Howe and Strauss. The Millennial Generation, or at least the name for that generation, was also invented by Howe and Strauss. I'm pretty sure that most people didn't conceptualise generations the way we do today 100, 200 or 300 years ago (although some apparently did).

I would be interested in how Strauss and Howe came up with those rubbery start-and-finish dates for the generations. I suspect that it is part of how they made the available data appear to fit their theory. I'd probably need to read their books in order to confirm that, but that isn't going to happen.

I'd also like to see the data that they started with and how they determined which data to use. How much of their characterisation of each generation was based opinion and how much was based on hard data?

The thing is that sociology is not a hard science and should not be judged in the same way as, for example, physics. BUT data analysis is a hard science and should be judged accordingly.

A quick google finds plenty of criticism of the theory. Here is one that contains links to a couple of other articles: https://qz.com/970646/the-world-has-already-bought-into-steve-bannons-apocalyptic-ideology/
That's an excellent observation, who invented the generation names. Knowing that makes some of the criticism read make more sense, one criticism is that the theory is non-falsifiable. The column for historic events actually did happen, but if everything else around it was created by the theorist, then there's no way anyone can potentially say no that didn't really happen during that generation or turning. Absolutely agree a thirteen year difference between the length of some generations seems iffy. The omission of the Vietnam war and techno boom are the only historic points I see as purposely glossed over by less eventful things, and those are glaring because they each encompass a 20 yr generational span, while affecting society to extremes which define their generations in any other context than this theory. Scrap is a history buff; thinking he should come back and discuss his link. He might notice other things that have been left out or replaced by less eventful things.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 23, 2017, 09:50:46 AM
No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Why do you apply one set of standards to me and another to yourself?

I know what I posted, and why. You don't.

Gaslighting.  :minusevil:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 23, 2017, 09:52:17 AM
In 1933, the German population was at 65,362,115. Nazi Party membership was at slightly over 2 million which means that just 3% of the population were actual Nazis.

Fuck, are you this stupid??

Two million = a handful  :hahaha:

3%, many of whom weren't particularly active.

Perspective, it matters motherfucker.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 23, 2017, 10:20:16 AM

OK. What I'm trying to say is that it's nowhere near an objective study, it cannot be, because history as sampling material is already rigged. We don't have the objective facts, we have weighted samples. History is already presented through a number of lenses and, depending on what we are looking for in time or place, different ones. For any scientifically valid study, this spells disaster.

This is a purely postmodernist argument. Why don't you have the courage to go all the way and claim that there is no objective truth and everything is socially constructed?? Come on, make Derrida, Foucault and Marcuse proud!!

History is most often written by the victors and often contains personal biases. So what?? That doesn't mean that it doesn't contain objective facts. Simply because the information isn't perfect, doesn't mean it can't be used to provide meaningful insight. I read several books on the analysis of battlefield data. Both sides of given battles often had contradicting accounts of how the battle unfolded. However in many cases, the seemingly contradictory sets of information were BOTH correct. Both sides were objectively reporting on what they saw but since they were on different sides, saw different things. But you're simply dismissing this phenomenon as "weighted samples"

Now who here is "internet smart" without wisdom or insight and who isn't??   :hahaha:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 23, 2017, 10:29:10 AM
Still not sure what you're trying to say. Sociology is crap? Probably on some level, sure.

I'm saying that most theories like this one probably are.

And you're saying this without actually understanding the field.

Can you say Dunning–Kruger??
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 23, 2017, 12:24:06 PM
The thing is that sociology is not a hard science and should not be judged in the same way as, for example, physics. BUT data analysis is a hard science and should be judged accordingly.

+
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 23, 2017, 12:26:34 PM
No you didn't. You provided a postmodernist, gobbledygook attempt at critical theory.

Why do you apply one set of standards to me and another to yourself?

I know what I posted, and why. You don't.

Gaslighting.  :minusevil:

Bullshit and utterly hypocritical. -1 x 4
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 23, 2017, 12:28:25 PM
In 1933, the German population was at 65,362,115. Nazi Party membership was at slightly over 2 million which means that just 3% of the population were actual Nazis.

Fuck, are you this stupid??

Two million = a handful  :hahaha:

3%, many of whom weren't particularly active.

Perspective, it matters motherfucker.

With your argumentation, nope. Numbers matter and you just failed, again. Idiot. -1
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 23, 2017, 12:30:28 PM

OK. What I'm trying to say is that it's nowhere near an objective study, it cannot be, because history as sampling material is already rigged. We don't have the objective facts, we have weighted samples. History is already presented through a number of lenses and, depending on what we are looking for in time or place, different ones. For any scientifically valid study, this spells disaster.

This is a purely postmodernist argument. Why don't you have the courage to go all the way and claim that there is no objective truth and everything is socially constructed?? Come on, make Derrida, Foucault and Marcuse proud!!

History is most often written by the victors and often contains personal biases. So what?? That doesn't mean that it doesn't contain objective facts. Simply because the information isn't perfect, doesn't mean it can't be used to provide meaningful insight. I read several books on the analysis of battlefield data. Both sides of given battles often had contradicting accounts of how the battle unfolded. However in many cases, the seemingly contradictory sets of information were BOTH correct. Both sides were objectively reporting on what they saw but since they were on different sides, saw different things. But you're simply dismissing this phenomenon as "weighted samples"

Now who here is "internet smart" without wisdom or insight and who isn't??   :hahaha:

It is painfully obvious that you've never engaged in any actual science. You just don't have the brains. -1
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 23, 2017, 12:31:56 PM
Still not sure what you're trying to say. Sociology is crap? Probably on some level, sure.

I'm saying that most theories like this one probably are.

And you're saying this without actually understanding the field.

Can you say Dunning–Kruger??

You still haven't contributed anything to this thread beyond a Wikipedia link and some name-dropping. It takes more than Google, idiot.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: El on November 23, 2017, 02:02:58 PM
It takes more than Google, idiot.
That's what she said.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 23, 2017, 02:31:37 PM
You still haven't contributed anything to this thread beyond a Wikipedia link and some name-dropping. It takes more than Google, idiot.

This is what you have done. Projecting again.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 23, 2017, 04:30:33 PM
You still haven't contributed anything to this thread beyond a Wikipedia link and some name-dropping. It takes more than Google, idiot.

This is what you have done. Projecting again.

You keep telling me that but you still haven't said I'm wrong about your contributions.

So tell us about your background. Any relevant merits or experience? You know, science stuff?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Yuri Bezmenov on November 24, 2017, 12:43:24 PM
From bondage to spiritual faith;
 from spiritual faith to great courage;
 from courage to liberty;
 from liberty to abundance;
 from abundance to selfishness;
 from selfishness to apathy;
 from apathy to dependence;
 from dependency back again into bondage."
Thinking there's a lot of truth in that. Don't particularly like sociology or history, nor believe the US ebbs and flows so precisely. It's still an interesting theory though and also seems to have a level of truth in it; especially liking the archetypes. However don't agree with how the millennial generation is classified. 1990-2008 is considered one of the more prosperous eras in the US. The archetype of the hero better describes them as born during a high, over indulged youth and the self-absorbed crusades of young adults. And how does the social crisis of the Vietnam war fit in? While agreeing genX fits well in the scheme as born during an awakening, it seems the crisis of war was the driver of that awakening for the young adult boomer generation.

Yes, I was noticing the same things, the millennials don't seem to fit the pattern.

There's a few potential explanations for this, perhaps this pattern only holds true until larger societal forces disrupt it. These forces would likely originate from outside the culture, then develop an internal reaction to those forces. The cold war was an era like no other with 2 generations growing up under the threat of nuclear annihilation. With the fall of the Soviet Union, you had a the millennials grow up in a relatively care free environment, with the exception of the paranoia over child abductions leading to helicopter parenting.

It's also possible that we're subject to a longer 250 year cycle that affects world power cultures like the Romans, the medieval Caliphate and the US.

I wonder if there's any historians/sociologists working on this??
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 24, 2017, 04:08:33 PM
There's a few potential explanations for this, perhaps this pattern only holds true until larger societal forces disrupt it. These forces would likely originate from outside the culture, then develop an internal reaction to those forces. The cold war was an era like no other with 2 generations growing up under the threat of nuclear annihilation. With the fall of the Soviet Union, you had a the millennials grow up in a relatively care free environment, with the exception of the paranoia over child abductions leading to helicopter parenting.

It's also possible that we're subject to a longer 250 year cycle that affects world power cultures like the Romans, the medieval Caliphate and the US.

I wonder if there's any historians/sociologists working on this??


(http://www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/I-Dont-Always-Aliens.jpg)
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Jack on November 24, 2017, 08:55:01 PM
From bondage to spiritual faith;
 from spiritual faith to great courage;
 from courage to liberty;
 from liberty to abundance;
 from abundance to selfishness;
 from selfishness to apathy;
 from apathy to dependence;
 from dependency back again into bondage."
Thinking there's a lot of truth in that. Don't particularly like sociology or history, nor believe the US ebbs and flows so precisely. It's still an interesting theory though and also seems to have a level of truth in it; especially liking the archetypes. However don't agree with how the millennial generation is classified. 1990-2008 is considered one of the more prosperous eras in the US. The archetype of the hero better describes them as born during a high, over indulged youth and the self-absorbed crusades of young adults. And how does the social crisis of the Vietnam war fit in? While agreeing genX fits well in the scheme as born during an awakening, it seems the crisis of war was the driver of that awakening for the young adult boomer generation.

Yes, I was noticing the same things, the millennials don't seem to fit the pattern.

There's a few potential explanations for this, perhaps this pattern only holds true until larger societal forces disrupt it. These forces would likely originate from outside the culture, then develop an internal reaction to those forces. The cold war was an era like no other with 2 generations growing up under the threat of nuclear annihilation. With the fall of the Soviet Union, you had a the millennials grow up in a relatively care free environment, with the exception of the paranoia over child abductions leading to helicopter parenting.

It's also possible that we're subject to a longer 250 year cycle that affects world power cultures like the Romans, the medieval Caliphate and the US.

I wonder if there's any historians/sociologists working on this??
Had the impression you and Pyraxis viewed the millenials as not fitting for a different reason; seemingly not viewing the current era as a crisis, and if it is a crisis then the crisis is yet to come. Pyraxis' comment about the war was that it doesn't seem all encompassing. It's interesting fifteen years of war doesn't strike as a generation of crisis, but would have to agree. It makes me think of something read years ago: America isn't at war; America is at the mall. The lack of viewed crisis from the inside may not necessarily mean it isn't a crisis. It may instead simply mean the government has learned its lesson from past wars, to avoid making war an everyday direct involvement in the lives of the general public. A disconnect has been successfully created and maintained, while also fostering a deep reverence for military personnel, in spite of overwhelming public disapproval for government and military action. Would like this theory a lot better if at least the technology boom were acknowledged as a break in the pattern. It seems the theorists didn't mind acknowledging the pattern isn't perfect with the Civil War not fitting the pattern, so not sure why they wouldn't acknowledge that too.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: El on November 24, 2017, 10:17:36 PM
Welp, at some point- maybe sooner than later- we'll have a last generation.  And boy won't that screw the data for all these theories up.

(Sorry if that part already got said- I did try to read through the thread but it's kinda laborious.)
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Pyraxis on November 24, 2017, 10:52:04 PM
A last generation? As in the extinction of the human race?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 25, 2017, 02:37:31 AM
Welp, at some point- maybe sooner than later- we'll have a last generation.  And boy won't that screw the data for all these theories up.

(Sorry if that part already got said- I did try to read through the thread but it's kinda laborious.)

:laugh:
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: El on November 25, 2017, 11:04:14 AM
A last generation? As in the extinction of the human race?
Yeah.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: odeon on November 26, 2017, 02:36:03 AM
A last generation? As in the extinction of the human race?
Yeah.

The upside is that there's no need for anyone to explain anything.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Minister Of Silly Walks on November 29, 2017, 05:33:38 AM
I took "generation" to be when a child was born up to the time they were likely to have children of their own. Accounting for historical and cultural changes and getting rid of outliers this 16-29 seems about right

o_O
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 29, 2017, 05:51:41 AM
I took "generation" to be when a child was born up to the time they were likely to have children of their own. Accounting for historical and cultural changes and getting rid of outliers this 16-29 seems about right

o_O

Do you need finger puppets to explain the concept?
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Minister Of Silly Walks on November 29, 2017, 06:02:12 AM
I took "generation" to be when a child was born up to the time they were likely to have children of their own. Accounting for historical and cultural changes and getting rid of outliers this 16-29 seems about right

o_O

Do you need finger puppets to explain the concept?

It's not exactly rocket science, but it is starting to look like I'm gonna need some kind of prop.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 29, 2017, 06:16:21 AM
I took "generation" to be when a child was born up to the time they were likely to have children of their own. Accounting for historical and cultural changes and getting rid of outliers this 16-29 seems about right

o_O

Okay. The of 16-29 years for a generation was claimed to be a too ill-defined. I, however, believe that though generation is assessed as being from the time of people in a community being born to when they become parents themselves, it is a difficult science to make a hard and fast determination as to exactly what that age is.
Do you need finger puppets to explain the concept? If you cut out the real outliers of precocious puberty and pregnancies and such and likewise the freakish 50yr old+ mothers and geriatric fathers then look at various cultures in a community in recent history, I think that 16-29 is a reasonable assessment and will capture most of the age of birth to parenthood. In future they will likely stretch this even further.

It's not exactly rocket science, but it is starting to look like I'm gonna need some kind of prop.
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Minister Of Silly Walks on November 29, 2017, 06:32:18 AM
I took "generation" to be when a child was born up to the time they were likely to have children of their own. Accounting for historical and cultural changes and getting rid of outliers this 16-29 seems about right

o_O

Okay. The of 16-29 years for a generation was claimed to be a too ill-defined. I, however, believe that though generation is assessed as being from the time of people in a community being born to when they become parents themselves, it is a difficult science to make a hard and fast determination as to exactly what that age is.
Do you need finger puppets to explain the concept? If you cut out the real outliers of precocious puberty and pregnancies and such and likewise the freakish 50yr old+ mothers and geriatric fathers then look at various cultures in a community in recent history, I think that 16-29 is a reasonable assessment and will capture most of the age of birth to parenthood. In future they will likely stretch this even further.

It's not exactly rocket science, but it is starting to look like I'm gonna need some kind of prop.

o_O    o_O    o_O
Title: Re: Where did the US screw up?
Post by: Al Swearegen on November 29, 2017, 06:35:17 AM
Poor you  :trump: