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Start here => Free For ALL => Topic started by: Al Swearengen on November 06, 2017, 03:49:28 PM

Title: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 06, 2017, 03:49:28 PM
I am not sure I am wholely shocked but a bit surprised how seriously you all bought into the narrative and a little disappointed in some of you.

Odeon has taken some leave and yes it was not long after Pea came on and made mention of some contracting thing that Odeon did not like and now has used big boy words to finally express his wish not to talk about it. Fine. Yes, Odeon has been feuding with some of us....well the some of the few of us that remain. Yes, he has given as good as he gets. No, he is not the victim in that. Yes, he has been a willing and active participant. No, this is not related to Pea.

However, he has pulled the wool over your eyes. He has tricked you all. I personally did not think the narrative very clever, myself. Pea came online by starting the first account he has had in 6 years and stayed a day and was shitcanned and in that time made some vague reference to some employment Odeon had at some point that was of mild interest to some........therefore I am going to break truces, abuse the mod tool on one of the few remaining people here and make unhinged justifications that I am protecting my family and that any action I do from here on in will be justified by this principle.

CRAZY!

How about FUCKING NO!

Quote
You have found INTENSITY², the autistic spectrum site everyone loves to hate.

We stand for freedom of expression, combative debate, and the generation of ideas. There are no boundaries here over what may be said, save for one rule - be prepared to back up your words. Or face the wrath of the community.

As such this site is not suitable for children. If you are under 18 please come back when you aren't any more.

If you are over 18 and have the bottle for it,

Why the fuck is this still on the site? DOES Odeon have the bottle for I2? Is it still freedom of expression? Great take Scrap off the mod, no? Right.

Odeon simply was not having his own way, disliked being questioned and could not handle someone alluding a ban and posting what at the end amounted to a little abrasive and snarky posts. That is it. Now because he has acted like a complete prat, rather than admit that he is overreacting and has been contributing to the toxicity in this place for a long time due to a never ending series of bad choices he has made...he blames it all on what? People trying to harm his family? I am not trying to harm his family, neither is Scrap and neither is Rockhound. Pea posting was not doing so either.

Now you get dishonest folk like Walkie stating that it is all related. What I say somehow is some dog whistle or hat tip to Pea and others say that I am conspiring with Scrap and Pea and God knows what else? Other still trying to say that I am ganging up with Scrap and whomever else on Odeon?

Anything that can be thrown my way in terms of how nasty or insulting can be equally cast on Odeon. Pea has mainly been a non-issue on here for 6 years. I am amazed how much power you all give him and how much Odeon elevates him.

I simply do not understand how you all have bought his bullshit hook line and sinker. I mean IF this is just trying to "shine his shoes" so he is more "at ease" and supported and comes back to a united defence, I understand that. But you don't ACTUALLY believe his bullshit do you? I mean Walkie is lying straight out and IceQueen will pretty much agree with Odeon against me on ANY issue regardless of the merit. I can understand that, but the rest of you free-thinking folk? I am suprised and a little disappointed.

Odeon has been as nasty and insulting and has escalated things as much as anyone else here. He has over the last two years helped turn this into a toxic place and you give him a pass on it all because he tells you he is stressed. Wow! Just Wow!

If I throw a tantrum, cry and accuse Odeon and the people that generally support him of being antagonists and bullies, trying to hurt me and my family, would you middle aged ladies come and mother me too?

Seems all it takes. Thankfully I've got a little more integrity. I would rather risk you all despise me than to debase my own values and principles to this level of disgusting dishonesty and manipulation of others.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Jack on November 06, 2017, 06:42:35 PM
Think all the viewpoints and feelings on the topic are valid. It makes sense people will mainly care about how the situation is affecting them personally. Really do see the arguments of others as something I can't actually do anything about. If the rules of this forum are to be re-defined that's okay with me as long as they're made clear.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Lestat on November 07, 2017, 12:24:55 AM
Walkie does NOT strike me as the dishonorable type, not in the slightest.


In many respects I agree with you about odeon's conduct. RAXY of all fucking people having cause to fear not only retaliation, or undoing of her work but an IP ban, if she removed a 'tool' designed for abuse, and for being abusive ONLY, as its one and only sole purpose? says a ton about what some here stand for, when someone as stand-up, decent salt of the earth a person as pyraxis is given cause to fear if she exercises the power she has been given in the interests of truth, honesty and just treatment of all, equally, that really says something. And if odeon has the slightest trace of honor he will himself not only take scrap/kek off the abuse but he will remove the capacity for it to be done again to anybody altogether, and do so voluntarily.

Because this stinks worse than Allah's own pig shit heap.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: 'andersom' on November 07, 2017, 02:48:29 AM
Thought the forum might have one tiny chance of surviving this whole shitstorm.
The one chance being Odeon leaving and Py taking over the place. Note, Odeon leaving, not you.

But again the whole community gets told that they are doing it wrong, not condemning Odeon hard enough. Py gets classified as the Pikajedi of Any Nelson. The woman tries so fucking hard, within the space she has, she does not deserve that verdict.

The shitstorm will not stop apparently. Now I think it will also not stop if Py takes over. Too much bad blood, disgust, hatred and disgust. Why would it stop, if you already labeled her that way? You are tenacious, after all, and can hold a grudge better than most.

Most active members of the forum are very well aware that it is a two way thing between you and Odeon. Most active members are well aware that those mod tools have been used in a nasty way against you.
Most active members of the forum have been aware that you have been demanding  the wrath of the community as a verdict on the thing between you and Odeon . You've been asking for that for about two years now.

Could be the wrath of the community is that they are fucking bored with it all. The wrath did not hit any of the two of you.

At this moment I think the best advocate Odeon has on I2 is you. You lash out to a lot of members and keep on doing that. Because they are not condemning Odeon hard enough. The moment Odeon drops that he resisted pulling the plug, you depict the community pandering him. The only thing I saw is Jack asking and Py offering to take over.

Py has now been labelled as not to trust by you. She is to Odeon what Pikajedi was to Amy Nelson.
The community is gullible and stupid and pandering Odeon in your vision.
You state there are dishonest folk like Walkie, so there are more in your view.
You are full on steam and will not stop.

Chance of I2 surviving is getting closer and closer to zero, I think.

In a few days I may even be relieved if it would lead to closing the place down.

Damn, I said I would give my two cents to charity, apparently I still had something in the seams of my pockets.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: 'andersom' on November 07, 2017, 02:50:15 AM
Question:
Is there still someone you do trust on this place?

No sarcasm in that question. Not taking the oiss either.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 07, 2017, 03:43:03 AM
Thought the forum might have one tiny chance of surviving this whole shitstorm.
The one chance being Odeon leaving and Py taking over the place. Note, Odeon leaving, not you.

But again the whole community gets told that they are doing it wrong, not condemning Odeon hard enough. Py gets classified as the Pikajedi of Any Nelson. The woman tries so fucking hard, within the space she has, she does not deserve that verdict.

The shitstorm will not stop apparently. Now I think it will also not stop if Py takes over. Too much bad blood, disgust, hatred and disgust. Why would it stop, if you already labeled her that way? You are tenacious, after all, and can hold a grudge better than most.

Most active members of the forum are very well aware that it is a two way thing between you and Odeon. Most active members are well aware that those mod tools have been used in a nasty way against you.
Most active members of the forum have been aware that you have been demanding  the wrath of the community as a verdict on the thing between you and Odeon . You've been asking for that for about two years now.

Could be the wrath of the community is that they are fucking bored with it all. The wrath did not hit any of the two of you.

At this moment I think the best advocate Odeon has on I2 is you. You lash out to a lot of members and keep on doing that. Because they are not condemning Odeon hard enough. The moment Odeon drops that he resisted pulling the plug, you depict the community pandering him. The only thing I saw is Jack asking and Py offering to take over.

Py has now been labelled as not to trust by you. She is to Odeon what Pikajedi was to Amy Nelson.
The community is gullible and stupid and pandering Odeon in your vision.
You state there are dishonest folk like Walkie, so there are more in your view.
You are full on steam and will not stop.

Chance of I2 surviving is getting closer and closer to zero, I think.

In a few days I may even be relieved if it would lead to closing the place down.

Damn, I said I would give my two cents to charity, apparently I still had something in the seams of my pockets.

In later AFF PikaJedi was the voice of reason and the decent Admin respected by Gareth and Amy was...Amy Nelson. It was complimentary to Pyraxis and noting that she is the Admin working under difficult circumstances in a community where one of the Admins is unhinged as Amy was and as our dear leader is.

It was a hat tip not a smear.

You misread me completely and that is unlike you.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 07, 2017, 05:26:36 AM
Thought the forum might have one tiny chance of surviving this whole shitstorm.
The one chance being Odeon leaving and Py taking over the place. Note, Odeon leaving, not you.

But again the whole community gets told that they are doing it wrong, not condemning Odeon hard enough. Py gets classified as the Pikajedi of Any Nelson. The woman tries so fucking hard, within the space she has, she does not deserve that verdict.

The shitstorm will not stop apparently. Now I think it will also not stop if Py takes over. Too much bad blood, disgust, hatred and disgust. Why would it stop, if you already labeled her that way? You are tenacious, after all, and can hold a grudge better than most.

Most active members of the forum are very well aware that it is a two way thing between you and Odeon. Most active members are well aware that those mod tools have been used in a nasty way against you.
Most active members of the forum have been aware that you have been demanding  the wrath of the community as a verdict on the thing between you and Odeon . You've been asking for that for about two years now.

Could be the wrath of the community is that they are fucking bored with it all. The wrath did not hit any of the two of you.

At this moment I think the best advocate Odeon has on I2 is you. You lash out to a lot of members and keep on doing that. Because they are not condemning Odeon hard enough. The moment Odeon drops that he resisted pulling the plug, you depict the community pandering him. The only thing I saw is Jack asking and Py offering to take over.

Py has now been labelled as not to trust by you. She is to Odeon what Pikajedi was to Amy Nelson.
The community is gullible and stupid and pandering Odeon in your vision.
You state there are dishonest folk like Walkie, so there are more in your view.
You are full on steam and will not stop.

Chance of I2 surviving is getting closer and closer to zero, I think.

In a few days I may even be relieved if it would lead to closing the place down.

Damn, I said I would give my two cents to charity, apparently I still had something in the seams of my pockets.

Is ANY of this true?

Now I think it will also not stop if Py takes over. Too much bad blood, disgust, hatred and disgust. Why would it stop, if you already labeled her that way

I have labelled her? No, I haven't I think she is in a very difficult position and whilst I do not always agree with her I think she is doing a great job. So what label is it you imagine I should give to her?

Most active members of the forum have been aware that you have been demanding  the wrath of the community as a verdict on the thing between you and Odeon . You've been asking for that for about two years now.

Except of course, I haven't. Wrath of the community is part of what people sign on and I certainly have generally underscored that AND I have been keen to correct anything I feel is ever misrepresenting Our Dear Leader BUT have I ever demanded a revolution or people to rise up against him? For the most part I have been calling out his bullshit and informing rather than demanding. I am disappointed when I think that HE has tricked you guys. I think yu guys are smarter than that and should know him better. But I have never asked for reinforcement or for the community to turn against him. Not once.

At this moment I think the best advocate Odeon has on I2 is you. You lash out to a lot of members and keep on doing that. Because they are not condemning Odeon hard enough.

No rewriting history and casting him as a tragic hero or the victim of a gang of nasty trolls trying to lash out at him all because of some 6 year old drama. None of which is fair or reasonable representation. I do not care if people condemn him or not. Never really have. Do admit to not liking seeing peopel pander to him. He does not deserve that any more than me.

Py has now been labelled as not to trust by you. She is to Odeon what Pikajedi was to Amy Nelson.

NO. ODEON is to Amy Nelson and Pyraxis is to PikaJedi. I like Pika and I like Pyraxis they were/are good Admins.  So in which way do I NOT trust Pyraxis? name a couple. Let's discuss this

The community is gullible and stupid and pandering Odeon in your vision.

No, not stupid but perhaps too soft-hearted or perhaps gullible. Pandering? Yes, I do not think he needs to be treated like a tragic hero or oppressed snowflake. I do not necessarily think he needs metaphorical eggs pelted at him by all and sundry either. I am happy to do that alone.

You state there are dishonest folk like Walkie, so there are more in your view.

Yup, IceQueen.

Look at what you said and what I have answered. You have made a HELL of a lot of assumptions about what I think and intend and such and painted them as known facts. How many were? Why would you paint me that way? That is not normally your way. Not the wisdom you are reknown for.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 07, 2017, 05:40:16 AM
Question:
Is there still someone you do trust on this place?

No sarcasm in that question. Not taking the oiss either.

Of course. Most people here I trust. Any particular reason you would imagine otherwise. a handful of members disappointing me in their actions does not equate to me NECESSARILY distrusting them. (Though I trust IceQueen as far as I could throw her and Walkie has recently shown a very dishonest side to her character that I would not put any store in). Apart from that...there is Odeon. Oh and FourAce and El are kind of ideological kindred spirits. A bit too Ideological.

If Sol, General Razorbeard, Eris, ButtCoffee or one of those types come back I would probably not trust them.

So serious question. As there is very little difference in how many members on this forum you would place trust in compared to me, when did this ever become a pertinent question? No sarcasm either and no piss take.

Second question when you speak of me having changed and yet it seems rather obvious you misrepresent me over, and over, and over again, is it not a bit more believable to imagine that perhaps you have imagined a changes and the person with imagined intents and motives and aspirations and hopes of the imagined man to the actual man and that the actual man needs not defend the strawman being attacked as it is not and never was him?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 07, 2017, 09:48:18 AM
Don't take the bait, Hyke...

If the dynamics of this moment are looking a lot like AFF (and I wouldn't know personally, since I wasn't there) then that's a pattern that needs to be broken, and to be broken it needs to be understood.

So if there are differences between that situation and this one, I'd love to hear them.

If there are more details about what happened then and why, that's useful info too.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Icequeen on November 07, 2017, 11:01:10 AM
Sick of the endless drama and sick of your long winded dysfunctional narratives.
You.
Sick.
Fuck.

Do you really want to know why I side with odeon?

Because you are the biggest whiny butthurt little man baby I've ever encountered.

You littered this forum with your endless circle jerk essays every fucking week for the last year or so...and then when you don't get the attention you feel you deserve you call in your flying monkey squad to join forces with you on your hateful agenda. 

I have other places to go.
Go pound salt up your ass.

It was fun while it lasted.
C'est la vie
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 07, 2017, 02:07:06 PM
Sick of the endless drama and sick of your long winded dysfunctional narratives.
You.
Sick.
Fuck.

Do you really want to know why I side with odeon?

Because you are the biggest whiny butthurt little man baby I've ever encountered.

You littered this forum with your endless circle jerk essays every fucking week for the last year or so...and then when you don't get the attention you feel you deserve you call in your flying monkey squad to join forces with you on your hateful agenda. 

I have other places to go.
Go pound salt up your ass.

It was fun while it lasted.
C'est la vie

I don't wonder about you at all. I have got you. All bluster and no substance.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 07, 2017, 02:14:39 PM
Don't take the bait, Hyke...

If the dynamics of this moment are looking a lot like AFF (and I wouldn't know personally, since I wasn't there) then that's a pattern that needs to be broken, and to be broken it needs to be understood.

So if there are differences between that situation and this one, I'd love to hear them.

If there are more details about what happened then and why, that's useful info too.

No bait. Publicly answering questions Hyke asked of me and in reply asking her questions back publicly. She also misrepresented what I thought and why and I corrected this and asked her why she created a strawman.

None of that is bait.Nor is it confrontational.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: 'andersom' on November 09, 2017, 02:12:54 AM
 I'll answer you later. Deserves some serious time and attention to get the answer right. And life has priority.
May take a few days before I have that attention span.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: FourAceDeal on November 09, 2017, 04:15:46 AM
Sick of the endless drama and sick of your long winded dysfunctional narratives.
You.
Sick.
Fuck.

Do you really want to know why I side with odeon?

Because you are the biggest whiny butthurt little man baby I've ever encountered.

You littered this forum with your endless circle jerk essays every fucking week for the last year or so...and then when you don't get the attention you feel you deserve you call in your flying monkey squad to join forces with you on your hateful agenda. 

I have other places to go.
Go pound salt up your ass.

It was fun while it lasted.
C'est la vie

Don't go.  This is precisely what the playground bully wants you to do.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 09, 2017, 06:48:06 AM
Sick of the endless drama and sick of your long winded dysfunctional narratives.
You.
Sick.
Fuck.

Do you really want to know why I side with odeon?

Because you are the biggest whiny butthurt little man baby I've ever encountered.

You littered this forum with your endless circle jerk essays every fucking week for the last year or so...and then when you don't get the attention you feel you deserve you call in your flying monkey squad to join forces with you on your hateful agenda. 

I have other places to go.
Go pound salt up your ass.

It was fun while it lasted.
C'est la vie

Don't go.  This is precisely what the playground bully wants you to do.

No idea what she even said. It was probably awesome though
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Queen Victoria on November 09, 2017, 10:59:09 AM
Al, I will admit and shout from the rooftop that I have not read all (or even close to a minimum) of the differences between you and odeon and other members.  But I do sense that you don't have many members who agree with you. **

You've explained your position, points, differences numerous times.  And I haven't noticed any appreciable acknowledgement by whoever you have probems (?) with that they are willing to say you are correct.  Isn't one cliche of insanity:  Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

Maybe it's time to just say you fought a strong, long hard battle, but it's time to put away disagreements.



** Shit, trying to choose my words properly and I forgot where I was going with this.  So I guess I'll change directions.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 09, 2017, 06:50:19 PM
Al, I will admit and shout from the rooftop that I have not read all (or even close to a minimum) of the differences between you and odeon and other members.  But I do sense that you don't have many members who agree with you. **

You've explained your position, points, differences numerous times.  And I haven't noticed any appreciable acknowledgement by whoever you have probems (?) with that they are willing to say you are correct.  Isn't one cliche of insanity:  Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

Maybe it's time to just say you fought a strong, long hard battle, but it's time to put away disagreements.



** Shit, trying to choose my words properly and I forgot where I was going with this.  So I guess I'll change directions.

I am consistent? Yup.

You know way back in  May /June 2015 Zegh set I  on me with some really personal and nasty shit and a feud resulted. I did not look for it but I did not back down from it. This place necessarily became a battleground. Me and him.
In April /May 2016, as the feud between Zegh and i was in its dying throes, Odeon decided to start in on me too, with a lot of dishonest and unreasonable shit and this escalated and escalated. I did not look for that either but I was never going to back down.So no time to dust myself down from the previous feud, just got on with it
A lot of people don't agree with me. No, people have their own perspectives. That unto itself is simply an appeal to popularity.
However, what other people think about my or how I view the world is a little irrelevant.
For me now its time I can actually have to dust myself off. Sure there are some I disagree with here and so me I dislike BUT I am feuding with no one and that is nice.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 10, 2017, 05:36:44 AM
Relieved to find this board still extant.


If we still have a site, I think that these words badly need to changed:

 
Quote
You have found INTENSITY², the autistic spectrum site everyone loves to hate.

We stand for freedom of expression, combative debate, and the generation of ideas. There are no boundaries here over what may be said, save for one rule - be prepared to back up your words. Or face the wrath of the community.

As such this site is not suitable for children. If you are under 18 please come back when you aren't any more.

If you are over 18 and have the bottle for it,

I don't know what to , exactly, but I think they're misleading, especially to Al. 

"Combative debate" is great but not when it turns to an inexhaustible  flame war. I think the idea was that debate here would not be shut down just because somebody makes an ad hominem attack...as too frequently occurs on other fora.  That ought to  allow us to have real,  honest, no-holds-barred  debate on all the hot  issues (religion, politics ) that other fora outlaw as being too inflammatory.  Great!

  But what we get instead, is that any ad hominem attack against Al leads to personal  feud with Al (at Al's insistence) and all subsequent debate being flooded with said feud. It gets to be all about personality.

It ought to mean that personal differences get aired in public , instead of sent to PM  where they fester.  Great! But it's come to mean we have a forum that's pretty much all about personal differences. When all's said and done, it gets said and done again, and again and again until everybodys sick of it and nobody cares any more.  Whilst avoiding  being too restrictive, I think we really do need to find a way of moderating that; of somehow calling an end to the flogging of dead horses.

"Back up your words" should not mean "be willing to let Al pick all your words apart and  construct a multitude of straw men out of them , then attempt to satisfy him  whilst he gnaws at your ankles like demented  terrier  'til Kingdom Come  "  But that's clearly how Al interprets that rule.

"Freedom of expression " ought to mean that - unlike other fora-  people can  question the owner/admin's judgement . Nobody will be banned for saying that the Admin is an ass. That's extremely important. That should prevents I2 becoming the kind of toxic place where people who disagree with the despotic  boss just  quietly vanish. Allelujah! Such  places are ridiculously common. And I for one am here because I'm sick off that other sort of place; and  not because I want to engage in Al's version of "combative debate" all the fucking time.

But what about that those demented terriers? I do believe that "we ladies" are siding with Odeon, (if you must call it that. Though I would strongly disagree if I had the energy) because we can imagine how it would feel to be the owner/Admin and have one's ankles gnawed at every time one logs on.  That would be a whole lot worse than is is for we ordinary members , who can just go off and do something else, when sick to the teeth of it.  Whatever we might think of Odeon's behaviour,  I guess we all believe that punishment is way in excess of the crime. And what's more, we have a lot of affection for I2, a lot of investment in this board,  and we woul;d very much like the place to survive.  That this shit is destroying the board is all too painfully evident.

Oh, and by the way ,people,  Al's grudge with me is based upon this  : several weeks ago ( during some forgotten political debate or something) I asked if  Al might have been drinking too much bourbon? ( because I thought he was spouting a load of nonsense). Al felt slighted.  I  apologised.  Apology was not accepted (deemed "dishones" I  suppose) and my every post has been dissected for evidence of "dishonesty " ever since.

On the whole I'd much rather have had a temporary ban for my ad hominem attack against Al  (undfair  and unconstitutional though that would be) than all this wearisome retribution, with Al gathering further "evidence" all the time. 

 Al, sorry to say it, I don't like to take sides but I do think that your attitude is a much bigger problem than Odeon's childish "mods" are.  I think you're inexorably pushing him into behaving more and more disgracefully, and tou won;t be sartisied until the whole board goes up in flames. Then you'll blame it on Odeon's "dishonest moderation creep" , won't you?  But I'm pretty sure most of us will take a  different view.

This board still has a whole lot more freedom of expression  than just about anywhere else.  I very much value that. I very much want to preserve it. But now it looks  all-too-too likely that whole board will fall to a self-fulfilling prpophesy. We'll have  few who think this board is over-moderated rubbing their hands  with glee and saying "I told you so" . But  then we''ll also have  many who've said it 's under moderated" rubbing their hands with glee and saying "I  told you so" . Sadly,  I think the latter group will have  one heckova lot of credibility.  And then we'll all just have to    :gotowp:

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 10, 2017, 06:47:30 AM
Hello there Walkie. You are still being dishonest even as you try to make a case for your dishonesty. It is clever. So I point out your dishonesty when I see it and in turn that dishonesty is justified BECAUSE it is me pointing it out. Got it!

You know it is not any more honest the narrative that all roads lead to Peaguy and everything that I took issue with Odeon was supported and ganged up against Odeon for, and based around what happened 6 years ago, than me apparently being a demented terrier gnawing at ankles. BUT it sounds almost believable.

Think about how honest something sounds before you type:
"Zegh left because Al was as effective and upsetting as a demented terrier gnawing at ankles"
"Al was sinbinned because he was as effective and upsetting as a demented terrier gnawing at ankles"
"Al was placed on a mod because he was as effective and upsetting as a demented terrier gnawing at ankles"

It is almost like you are not even trying for the appearance of honesty.

Ironically there IS SOME truth in here. I think it is worth sifting through to find it.

Quote
I do believe that "we ladies" are siding with Odeon, (if you must call it that. Though I would strongly disagree if I had the energy) because we can imagine how it would feel to be the owner/Admin and have one's ankles gnawed at every time one logs on.  That would be a whole lot worse than is is for we ordinary members , who can just go off and do something else, when sick to the teeth of it.  Whatever we might think of Odeon's behaviour,  I guess we all believe that punishment is way in excess of the crime. And what's more, we have a lot of affection for I2, a lot of investment in this board,  and we woul;d very much like the place to survive.

See, I do not necessarily agree that this is reason to side with anyone BUT the reasoning to want to sounds pretty solid. Honest. You do not have to lie for effect or to spin your narratives. Truth alone should sell your position. I CAN understand the above and I can respect that more than pretending that there is not the bias and that this is not the reasoning.

Here is some questions and I want you to honestly reflect on this and let me know.

Before you started typing this last post, did you imagine that it would be answered? Did you imagine I would critique it or I would let it go unchallenged? Do you believe me responding is and ought to be allowed, even if it is repudiating your claims? Do you believe that it is better for inferences and claims to paint a narrative that is untrue if the resulting perception supports a narrative that you believe is moral good or worthwhile (such as bringing harmony and peace)?

Here is a final one?

Had you decided NOT to post this post and have it shot down and exposed for the crock it is, what interaction against any member on here do you imagine that I may have had today IF the thrust of your convictions is that I am fighting everyone and this is going to bring down the board AND if you appreciate that I would respond negatively to any post like this?

Edit: By the way. your describing how things "should" be or should mean, is simply YOUR interpretation and perception. They are not mine and when I read the Intensitysquared mission statement, I take a different view. Guess who's view is better? Neither. Yours is not a more moral or virtuous position.

The fact that you are pushing for it to change to a different standard rather suggests that you believe your standard is better than all the hundreds of members of this board over more than a decade who signed onto this place acknowledging this standard and taking it as the minimum requirements to allow them to be here. You know better huh?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 10, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
You've actually got the gist of it. People leave because of you. You're like a schoolyard bully on steroids.

But here's what's going to happen. Either you stop or I make you stop. Hyke mentioned that I'm not going to ban you but she was wrong. I've spent a couple of days on and off to think about all this and that just didn't seem right to me. I can ban you and I will ban you, if you don't stop this. I had my share of schoolyard bullies--many of us did--but that's all in the past. FourAce is absolutely right.

Your choice.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 10, 2017, 06:11:57 PM
You've actually got the gist of it. People leave because of you. You're like a schoolyard bully on steroids.

But here's what's going to happen. Either you stop or I make you stop. Hyke mentioned that I'm not going to ban you but she was wrong. I've spent a couple of days on and off to think about all this and that just didn't seem right to me. I can ban you and I will ban you, if you don't stop this. I had my share of schoolyard bullies--many of us did--but that's all in the past. FourAce is absolutely right.

Your choice.

Oh hai, Odeon. You are back. Awesome (not really awesome)

The same things you accuse me of are equally applicable to yourself and your own conduct.

The difference is that I do not bother trying to hide behind the pseudo-justification that I get to do as I like because I am "protecting my famuly" or that "I can say as i like as I am paying the bills"

I do not do ultimatums and will not start now.

I am happy to post inconsequentially and relax on here as I used to back in 2015 AND I am equally okay blazing away at you. I am happy to give you a wide swath.

But let's be perfectly real and honest here. That will not be good enough for you. You broke every truce we made and I started calling it. Any agreement I could make to leave you allow willhave no bearing on your own conduct. What you are actually after is for me to be cowed into confrontation avoidance. Having agreed to the ultimatum, you will not be so constrained in your own behaviour as you would have with a truce (which you would have broken anyhow).

Regardless of what I agree to or how I behave, you will continue to start conflict with me but then use a ban with justification of retaliation.

Fuck that.

Odeon people do leave and I suggest a big reason is they have not the bottle for it anymore.  People do get banned for breaking the rules. If you ban someone whilst they are not breaking the rules, I suggest YOU have not the bottle for this place.

How about banning everyone who may possibly have cause to argue with you and you will be left with you, Cbc and Renaeden discussing the weather.

Or you know, stop being a pompous, impotent , sandbox authoritarian.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 11, 2017, 02:25:36 AM
Funny that you'd think our conducts were similar. They are not. You bully anyone daring to question you, endlessly, post after post, and you don't let go. You wear them down and eventually they think 'fuck this' and leave.

Bullying's got nothing whatsoever to do with freedom of speech or the free expression of ideas, and not tolerating it does not equal "not having the bottle for this place". Stop excusing your behaviour with what it says on the cover.

As I said, your choice, but this ends now.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 11, 2017, 03:23:39 AM
Funny that you'd think our conducts were similar. They are not. You bully anyone daring to question you, endlessly, post after post, and you don't let go. You wear them down and eventually they think 'fuck this' and leave.

Bullying's got nothing whatsoever to do with freedom of speech or the free expression of ideas, and not tolerating it does not equal "not having the bottle for this place". Stop excusing your behaviour with what it says on the cover.

As I said, your choice, but this ends now.

You may think it is funny, I do not much care.

 
Quote
You have found INTENSITY², the autistic spectrum site everyone loves to hate.

We stand for freedom of expression, combative debate, and the generation of ideas. There are no boundaries here over what may be said, save for one rule - be prepared to back up your words. Or face the wrath of the community.

As such this site is not suitable for children. If you are under 18 please come back when you aren't any more.

If you are over 18 and have the bottle for it,

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,119.0.html

What is intensity? part #1
« on: April 06, 2006, 10:54:02 PM »


We believe in the right to speak freely.

We believe that People with AS have not been allowed to speak freely.  And that society has been a bully which has forced their silence.  as a result people with AS seem to be a little on the ultra sensitive side.  We would like to give voice to People with AS, since the silence has been enforced by society for far to long.
intensity? is a place where freedom reigns supreme in the marketplace of ideas.  we encourage everybody to speak so that together we may form a collage of ideas and work out the truths as percieved by the AS Community.  Then we plan on taking those truths and become advocates for them.  and we will stand together and be counted, and we will speak up.

The price of speech is not free.  Each person will be held accountable for their words and challenged by the Community.  The off chance that you might be embarrassed for what you say, is the price of free speech.  People have no right to censor what another thinks, and abolish them before they get the right to speak.  that is what we have battled our entire lives and its over.
we demand the right here.  and we make use of that right.  right or wrong, you will not be silenced by those who wish to keep you from being counted.


we are not disabled by AS, we are challenged.  and we challenge you, to help us overcome those hurdles, and challenge us.


to be continued...

we encourage
*flaming
*name calling
*trolling
*free thought

*outside the box thinking
*the sophist method of debate
*search for truth
*and the right to speak, and keep speaking, and again, and as many times as necessary, until all parties are satisfied.


-intensity? community

I have bolded the necessary parts for you to ponder. Perhaps you can leave the site for another couple of days and ruminate over them.

This is what I signed up for and this is what I am following. SO tell me are YOU:

"People have no right to censor what another thinks, and abolish them before they get the right to speak.  that is what we have battled our entire lives and its over.
we demand the right here.  and we make use of that right.  right or wrong, you will not be silenced by those who wish to keep you from being counted.
"

Are YOU looking to silence ME and MY freedom of expression? Yes or no?
I am happy to face the wrath of the community, are you or did you want to take another hiatus?

Do YOU encourage:

we encourage
*flaming
*name calling
*trolling
*free thought
*and the right to speak, and keep speaking, and again, and as many times as necessary, until all parties are satisfied.


I particularly like:

*and the right to speak, and keep speaking, and again, and as many times as necessary, until all parties are satisfied

IF not then what the Hell are you doing?

I know, I know different standards for different people. Slimy.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 11, 2017, 06:08:54 AM
Al, I wrote the following  last night, but got interrupted by a long phone call.  I think it's still worth saying. In fact , it's all the more worth saying , in the light of your argument with Odeon

Quote
Al, no I actually meant all the above-stated opions. Think what you like, but I don't intend to engage in an argument about  whether I meant what I said, and interrogation as to why would I say it, given  that i really think something else? As I have said before,  I 've had more than enough of people insisisting  that they know my mind better than I do, and pressing me into agreeing with their version of the " truth"    I had that all the fucking  time  when I was a kid . I  am not willing to take it from anyone now, least of all a fellow Aspie, who ought to damn well  know better.

Was gonna go on to say , I'm glad we found some points of agreement, would rather build on those.  However,  this does chime in with what Odeon said about bullying. He's right. I'm sure you don't think of it that way, but your behaviour really is a form of bullying. It's just the sort of thing I have in mind when I say that I was bullied more often  (and far more traumatically) by well-intentioned adults than by other kids.  I'm sure they believed that their actions were fully justified, too.   I 'm sure that they never for a monent realised that they were bullies.

But really , Al, being pressed and pressed and pressed to conform to  Al's mental model of one's own inner self  is no different, in effect, than being pressed and pressed and pressed and pressed to conform to  the NT model. Once somebody earns your wrath, then you unremittingly offer  them the exact kind of thing that we come to these boards to escape from. It goes way beyond name-calling and attacks a person at their core.

I'm sure that McJ would be very flattered to find that his words from 2006 are being enshrined in stone and regarded as gospel.  Pity he's not here to reconsider them in the light of subsequent developments.  It's even more of a pity that Wolfie (who co-founded the original Intensity, along with McJ) is no longer here to comment. Looks like we;ll just have to think for ourselves, doesn't it? Looks like we'll just have to ask ourselves if this site is working out as intended?

I see you didn't see fit to bold the majority McJ's mission statment, which is a pity, because it's a lot more posirtive  and constructive that you tend to give him credit for.  You've invariably  focussed instead on his projected means to that end, rather than the end in itself. So, here it is again:

We believe in the right to speak freely.

We believe that People with AS have not been allowed to speak freely.  And that society has been a bully which has forced their silence.  as a result people with AS seem to be a little on the ultra sensitive side.  We would like to give voice to People with AS, since the silence has been enforced by society for far to long.
intensity? is a place where freedom reigns supreme in the marketplace of ideas.  we encourage everybody to speak so that together we may form a collage of ideas and work out the truths as percieved by the AS Community.  Then we plan on taking those truths and become advocates for them.  and we will stand together and be counted, and we will speak up.

The price of speech is not free.  Each person will be held accountable for their words and challenged by the Community.  The off chance that you might be embarrassed for what you say, is the price of free speech.  People have no right to censor what another thinks, and abolish them before they get the right to speak.  that is what we have battled our entire lives and its over.
we demand the right here.  and we make use of that right.  right or wrong, you will not be silenced by those who wish to keep you from being counted.

we are not disabled by AS, we are challenged.  and we challenge you, to help us overcome those hurdles, and challenge us






I think that there's a tiny little flaw in that, which has come to acquire a lot of significance.  McJ just didn't happen to consider, at the time of writing,  that one way in which NT's tend to oppress our freedom of speech is by imposing their own narrative over ours and insist ing that they are right and we are wrong, even regarding our own subjective experience.

Intensity was clearly supposed to be a refuge from NT bullying, not somewhere where NT bullying is replicated. But that's easier said than done isn't it? And it obviously doesn't work out as intended all the time. The present instance being one massive case-in-point, I'm sorry to say.

As to the parts you saw fit to bold: I think that's all well-and-good except for the word "encourage" , which was a bloody stupid.word to use  We permit these things, we tolerate these things  because the alternative would be a lot worse, but it's to be hoped that they don't completely displace constructive discussion, isn't it? Or else what the heck is the point?

In practice, actual bullying has occured on I2, especially in the "good old days" . The  "wrath of the community" has sometimes unremittingly fallen  upon one person , not because they didn't "back their wrds" but rther because they had offended other people's sense of morality. People have been driven away by that kind of mob rule.  And people have been driven away by other forms of bullying , and al;so by excessive trolling completely takling over the board. Sometimes the culptiits have been reluctantly  banned for the sake of preserving the community. And you're right in what you often say : there's been no consistent policy on this . There's no policy at all as such.  It's generally done as a last resort, once a situation becomes intolerable, but that's very subjective, isn't it?

IMO, no system can ever work as intended for every situation encountered, because systems are rigid and inflexible, whereas life is complex, dymamic and constrantly surprising us. We therefore  need one last freedom: the  freedom to break our own rules rather than commit or perpetuate an atrocity  (Ooh! that's almost to paraphase Orwell's sixth rule on good writing! *chuckle*)

Al, I sincerely hope  this doesn't add up to: Odeon has to ban you.  You'd be a grievous  loss to the community . You've made any number of thoughtful and supportive contributions to this site.  Also, you're right: it would come across hypocrital on his part, give that the trolling was mutual.  But , on the other hand, what you're doing is actually worse than simple trolling and name-calling, and I wouldn't really blame any Admin who came to that conclusion eventually. That it falls to Odeon to make that decision  is a great pity.
 
In view of that, I have one last practical suggestion to make: that Pyraxis take over control of the site, on a tempoary basis, until either these problems with Al are resolved one wayor another,  or else she gives up on trying to resolve them . It seems we pretty much all have confidence in Pyraxis, and  any judgement she might make, even if harsh, would leave a better taste in the mouth.  I, for one, don't want to see Odeon in the position of having to actually ban Al.  I think that would leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth (Odeon included) and we;'d never hear the end of the repercussions. Ofc, that could also result in Odeon being banned, sinbinned or what-have-you. Hmm. Well that could be a laugh.  I hope Odeon is willing to take that risk?



Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 11, 2017, 08:14:15 AM
Now, reading through what you wrote here, I don't agree with much of it but most of it rings true. That is to say perhaps, I can understand that people could honestly believe what you have said. A different perspective rather than a line of bullshit.

I do not much care if I am banned or not and you are right it would not only in a way prove every point I made about hypocrisy BUT it would also cut a small and non-growing community down one more.

So.....what is to be done? Well, I am not going to suggest Odeon has to leave or I have to leave. It is not a "this place is only big enough for one of us" type situation. I am not going to pretend that I have any respect for Odeon or that I am cowed by his threats and ultimatums. Likewise, I am sure Odeon does not care for me and would prefer he did not have to see me here OR that I begged and scrapped to see in my decade here.

But assuming he does not get rid of me and I do not leave, then what? THAT is the problem.

I have tried a number of times to either propose a truce or to accept a truce. It ends the same way. Because Odeon honestly sees everything as my issue and he as not having done anything wrong (ever), when it pleases him he will break the truce because the truce only really applies to me because he did nothing wrong and fuck Al because he deserves it. Naturally, I do not share his perception and nor do I care to put up with his bullshit without returning fire.

The key, of course, is us BOTH actively avoiding the kind of shit to stir up the other. That includes subtle bullshit and threats and mod tools and insults and the like. A truce kept. I CAN do that. I prefer not to BUT I am prepared to. I simply do not think he can.

I remember 2015 and before and how it was like to post then. Intensity Squared for me was not a warzone for me then and I am cool just being a regular member. I do not have to like everyone or agree with them. I can actively avoid Odeon. What I will not do is to take shit without return fire.

As to the rules, again, people interpret it differently. Again too, your perceptions of me are different to my perceptions of me. Which of our perceptions is the truth? You see the problem now with changing the rules and with accepting the foundations of my being a bully from which to base other elucidations?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 11, 2017, 09:21:30 AM
I'm not interested in you defending your bullying with what McJ came up in 2006 or what Dunc wrote on our cover page (I think it was Dunc, anyway), I simply want it to stop. If I have to ban you to make it stop, I will. And honestly, I won't feel particularly bad about doing so.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 11, 2017, 09:37:20 AM
In view of that, I have one last practical suggestion to make: that Pyraxis take over control of the site, on a tempoary basis, until either these problems with Al are resolved one wayor another,  or else she gives up on trying to resolve them . It seems we pretty much all have confidence in Pyraxis, and  any judgement she might make, even if harsh, would leave a better taste in the mouth.  I, for one, don't want to see Odeon in the position of having to actually ban Al.  I think that would leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth (Odeon included) and we;'d never hear the end of the repercussions. Ofc, that could also result in Odeon being banned, sinbinned or what-have-you. Hmm. Well that could be a laugh.  I hope Odeon is willing to take that risk?

I very much doubt it would make any difference to hand over control to Py, and I'm not interested in doing so. I'm NOT about to be driven away by a bully. Besides, trying to resolve anything with Al is utterly pointless. What makes you think it would work this time when all past attempts, including your own, failed? No, he will simply have to back down or face a ban, and I have no problems with living with that decision.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 11, 2017, 10:08:10 AM
I'm not interested in you defending your bullying with what McJ came up in 2006 or what Dunc wrote on our cover page (I think it was Dunc, anyway), I simply want it to stop. If I have to ban you to make it stop, I will. And honestly, I won't feel particularly bad about doing so.

I have long since stopped caring about your warped version of reality. I do not think it has anything worth humouring.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 11, 2017, 10:14:08 AM
I will not "choose" between Odeon and Al. If anybody walks away thinking they were in the right, it is not going to be a position I support or agree with.

I do not agree with banning Al.

Nor do I agree with characterizing a ban of him as defense from bullying, or saying that he does not make any positive contribution to the site. In the middle of arguments, he has made a point of *also* making positive contributions. The ratio of combative to positive has sucked of late, but it has sucked for Odeon as well.

I can understand Odeon refusing to be driven away from the site by Al's behavior. Though I don't think leaving for a few days to take a break has to be characterized as being driven away. Walking away from an argument to get a clear head is a smart tactic.

Walkie, I'm peeved at you for not realizing that things were actually starting to get better a couple days ago, right before Odeon came back with his ultimatum, and starting things up with Al all over again.

But I also think it's inevitable that it would have happened with somebody. Things are not quite desperate enough yet for the cancer of toxicity to be treated with any kind of lasting cure. All the current options will still do damage to the community. It's all about free will in the end.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 11, 2017, 11:43:51 AM
Py, I see much of Odeon's ultimatums as akin to chest-thumping. I know this is supposed to be the bit where I genuflect to Odeon or something. But I will quarantine my snark and what not to this thread for as long as others want to have a go. I am happy as I say to do what I was doing 2015. I will not seek Odeon out for argument or endorsement.

I have said a few times that I do not expect he will keep a truce but I will do my bit to make it easy for him to do so. It will not take much to spoil that nor to keep it. But I expect Odeon will choose the former.

That is my commitment and on record. You can hold me to that. I know you are making an effort and I am not that unreasonable not to try too.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 11, 2017, 11:58:50 AM
In view of that, I have one last practical suggestion to make: that Pyraxis take over control of the site, on a tempoary basis, until either these problems with Al are resolved one wayor another,  or else she gives up on trying to resolve them . It seems we pretty much all have confidence in Pyraxis, and  any judgement she might make, even if harsh, would leave a better taste in the mouth.  I, for one, don't want to see Odeon in the position of having to actually ban Al.  I think that would leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth (Odeon included) and we;'d never hear the end of the repercussions. Ofc, that could also result in Odeon being banned, sinbinned or what-have-you. Hmm. Well that could be a laugh.  I hope Odeon is willing to take that risk?

I very much doubt it would make any difference to hand over control to Py, and I'm not interested in doing so. I'm NOT about to be driven away by a bully. Besides, trying to resolve anything with Al is utterly pointless. What makes you think it would work this time when all past attempts, including your own, failed? No, he will simply have to back down or face a ban, and I have no problems with living with that decision.

I'm sorry you're not intersted in trying the experiment  :( . To answer your question: as you can't help but know, Al has repeatedly complained that you're exploiting an unfair advantage that you happen to have, by using your moderation tools on him when you're losing a fight  with him.   No use arguing with that, it's a matter of opinion, can't be proved either way.

 If Py took over the reins, that would, for the first time ever,  put the pair of you on a completely level playing field wouldn't it? I don't know, but  I think that could make a huge difference between the pair of you.  Worth a shot.

Anyway, in general, it's really not a good idea for a moderator or Admin to be the one to discipline a member he has a personal bitch with, because mods are just human beings, like the rest of us, and we can't really expect a god-like detachment from them. If an alterative (non-involved) Mod is available, that alternative should step in instead.

Incidentally, I once said that on another forum , after the resident Narcissicist abruptly banned his worst enemy whilst all the other mods were sleeping  I said: "He should have stepped back and let somebody else make  that decision" giving same rationale I stated  above.  Next thing , the guy jumped on me , and threatened to ban me for having the cheek to question his judgement *chuckle* .  The other Mods restrained him, though.

Nah, I don't think you're anywhere near that bad, Odeon, I really don't.  but some people round here seem  have no idea what a real Forum Tyrant is like, and they're saying you're that bad, aren't they? *sigh*. So proving them wrong also looks like a pretty good idea to me.   Futile perhaps, but an added bonus.

Anyway,  I believe that people would respect you all the more for it. And I'm pretty damned sure that Pyraxis would look after the place well, and return the keys promptly, when asked.

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Jack on November 11, 2017, 12:18:17 PM
Anyway, in general, it's really not a good idea for a moderator or Admin to be the one to discipline a member he has a personal bitch with, because mods are just human beings, like the rest of us, and we can't really expect a god-like detachment from them. If an alterative (non-involved) Mod is available, that alternative should step in instead.
That's a great suggestion. Disagree with the idea of Odeon giving up the forum over this if he doesn't wan to, but letting someone else make the decisions in his own personal arguments is an idea worth consideration.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 11, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
Py, I see much of Odeon's ultimatums as akin to chest-thumping. I know this is supposed to be the bit where I genuflect to Odeon or something. But I will quarantine my snark and what not to this thread for as long as others want to have a go. I am happy as I say to do what I was doing 2015. I will not seek Odeon out for argument or endorsement.

I have said a few times that I do not expect he will keep a truce but I will do my bit to make it easy for him to do so. It will not take much to spoil that nor to keep it. But I expect Odeon will choose the former.

That is my commitment and on record. You can hold me to that. I know you are making an effort and I am not that unreasonable not to try too.

Glad to hear it Al.  Sorry I haven't yet responded to your reply to me, which was also appreciated. But I'm a slow-coach, as you know;  it takes me bloody ages to translate my thoughts into words and I do try to chose my words carefully.   So maybe there;'s a reply in pipeline, if i manage find enough energy to spare, but do  think that an acknowledment at the very least is called for, right away .
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 11, 2017, 02:54:02 PM
In view of that, I have one last practical suggestion to make: that Pyraxis take over control of the site, on a tempoary basis, until either these problems with Al are resolved one wayor another,  or else she gives up on trying to resolve them . It seems we pretty much all have confidence in Pyraxis, and  any judgement she might make, even if harsh, would leave a better taste in the mouth.  I, for one, don't want to see Odeon in the position of having to actually ban Al.  I think that would leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth (Odeon included) and we;'d never hear the end of the repercussions. Ofc, that could also result in Odeon being banned, sinbinned or what-have-you. Hmm. Well that could be a laugh.  I hope Odeon is willing to take that risk?

I very much doubt it would make any difference to hand over control to Py, and I'm not interested in doing so. I'm NOT about to be driven away by a bully. Besides, trying to resolve anything with Al is utterly pointless. What makes you think it would work this time when all past attempts, including your own, failed? No, he will simply have to back down or face a ban, and I have no problems with living with that decision.

I'm sorry you're not intersted in trying the experiment  :( . To answer your question: as you can't help but know, Al has repeatedly complained that you're exploiting an unfair advantage that you happen to have, by using your moderation tools on him when you're losing a fight  with him.   No use arguing with that, it's a matter of opinion, can't be proved either way.

 If Py took over the reins, that would, for the first time ever,  put the pair of you on a completely level playing field wouldn't it? I don't know, but  I think that could make a huge difference between the pair of you.  Worth a shot.

Anyway, in general, it's really not a good idea for a moderator or Admin to be the one to discipline a member he has a personal bitch with, because mods are just human beings, like the rest of us, and we can't really expect a god-like detachment from them. If an alterative (non-involved) Mod is available, that alternative should step in instead.

Incidentally, I once said that on another forum , after the resident Narcissicist abruptly banned his worst enemy whilst all the other mods were sleeping  I said: "He should have stepped back and let somebody else make  that decision" giving same rationale I stated  above.  Next thing , the guy jumped on me , and threatened to ban me for having the cheek to question his judgement *chuckle* .  The other Mods restrained him, though.

Nah, I don't think you're anywhere near that bad, Odeon, I really don't.  but some people round here seem  have no idea what a real Forum Tyrant is like, and they're saying you're that bad, aren't they? *sigh*. So proving them wrong also looks like a pretty good idea to me.   Futile perhaps, but an added bonus.

Anyway,  I believe that people would respect you all the more for it. And I'm pretty damned sure that Pyraxis would look after the place well, and return the keys promptly, when asked.

Not interested in proving anything, Walkie, and not interested in another experiment. This, to me, is a very simple issue. It's about me drawing a line and saying no more.

And no, Py, I'm not seeking your approval, I'm not seeking anyone's. Al was instrumental in bringing down one board. He sure as hell won't bring down this one.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 11, 2017, 02:54:44 PM
Anyway, in general, it's really not a good idea for a moderator or Admin to be the one to discipline a member he has a personal bitch with, because mods are just human beings, like the rest of us, and we can't really expect a god-like detachment from them. If an alterative (non-involved) Mod is available, that alternative should step in instead.
That's a great suggestion. Disagree with the idea of Odeon giving up the forum over this if he doesn't wan to, but letting someone else make the decisions in his own personal arguments is an idea worth consideration.

No.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Jack on November 11, 2017, 04:22:45 PM
Anyway, in general, it's really not a good idea for a moderator or Admin to be the one to discipline a member he has a personal bitch with, because mods are just human beings, like the rest of us, and we can't really expect a god-like detachment from them. If an alterative (non-involved) Mod is available, that alternative should step in instead.
That's a great suggestion. Disagree with the idea of Odeon giving up the forum over this if he doesn't wan to, but letting someone else make the decisions in his own personal arguments is an idea worth consideration.

No.
Okay.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 11, 2017, 04:28:46 PM
It's all about free will in the end.

 :eyebrows:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 11, 2017, 04:57:39 PM
And no, Py, I'm not seeking your approval, I'm not seeking anyone's.

Did I imply you were?

Al was instrumental in bringing down one board.

Say what? Which board are you referring to, and what happened?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 11, 2017, 06:10:51 PM
And no, Py, I'm not seeking your approval, I'm not seeking anyone's.

Did I imply you were?

Al was instrumental in bringing down one board.

Say what? Which board are you referring to, and what happened?

I was wondering the same.  Odd that this hasn't been said before. Am suspecting mistaken identity, but waiting for further info.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 11, 2017, 08:34:02 PM
Aspiesforfreedom. Brought down by Al's vendetta against the founders/admins of that site.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 11, 2017, 08:52:27 PM
Yeah so what's that story then? Still looking for details.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 11, 2017, 08:54:58 PM
Yes, it is a little historical revisionism. But let's spell it out. I CAN confirm this all in another two threads on here.

Many years ago on AFF Amy and Gareth got busy in real life stuff and left the forum. They left the place to the rest of us on the forum. The mods like Evil Zakkie and our beloved CBC had limited powers and were not Admins. They could not ban but as I remember could delete and edit posts.

There were a few people who generally countered trolls and people that would seek to harm the people or culture there whilst the Admins were asleep at the wheel. Max the Bear was one and so was yours truly.

The forum built up and went from strength to strength over the next couple of years it became a hub of activism and support and had a layered culture. Sounds great right?

Then Amy and Gareth barged in and Amy insinuated herself in the thick of things and start pushing her odious personality on things. She insulted people and what they were up to and told us what to stop and what to concentrate on and had no clue who was who and what. She started barking orders and giving warnings. The people revolted.

Some organised very indirect protests such as logging off for a day or so and some changed their avatar to one with a gag on it. (We are looking at about 50 members to give you an indication of the size of this). I was asked but decided to do what I normally do and go to the source and did. I went in hard on her for all the shit she was causing.

She banned me and about 7 others and that 50 left. Then she went through and "sanitised the board" and edited it and for her coup de grace she publicly blamed me for organising the protests.

One banned member came back onto the board soon afterwards and through no little work and generousity of spirit graduated his standing. He became an Admin and was well regarded by Gareth. Amy treated him in general with disdain and sometimes actively worked against him. The work Pikajedi did on the forum was solid and his ability to dance and sidestep around Amy's bullshit was masterful.

He recognised pretty quickly who I was when I came back and realising too that it was bullshit for me getting shitcanned, allowed me on as he had been allowed on by Gareth.

Amy had been off and Pikajedi was mainly running the show and with Gareth piping in occasionally. Amy did frequent the chat but was not that interested interacting. Things were pretty okay. The once great AFF had never really recovered from the heights of maybe 60-65 active and contributing members before the purge, but it had built up a little and such.

Then in comes Amy. She starts throwing her weight around and doing the same sort of shit she did years before. Most people (unlike previously) were cowed, I was not. I pointed out every instance of her stupidity and dishonesty and why it was so. She did not like that. She banned me.

The next day everyone revolted and asked why she banned me and demanded me back. She threw a hissy fit and closed the forum.

THAT is the historical truth behind it and it is evidenced on here.

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,19145.0.html

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,21384.0.html

So Odeon was misrepresenting the situation but that is Odeon all over.

However, there are some similarities. I have mentioned already the Odeon and Amy similarity and the Pyraxis and Pikajedi similarity BUT the big one for me I think really needs unscoring:

If you are going to be an Admin then be an Admin. If you are going to be a member, be a member. If you are wanting to be an Admin but behave as a member, you do not get to leverage your Admin power over your member behavior. If you interact as a member and run into a member issue or member personality clash you do not then deal with that issue through the Admin panel.

We recognise this kind of behaviour in other situations and it is abhorrent.

For example:

a) If you are hired as a worker BUT you use the authority that your parent owns the workplace or is the workplace's funding source to slack off or do a subpar job because you can threat the wrath of your parent on the work if they give you a hard time.

b) Engaging in a game of skill or sporting endevour with your friend BUT with the implicit threat that IF they beat you, you will pack up your toys and go home.

c) Any standover tactic where a beating will apply if you do not contain your results.

We know that behaviour. It is slimy.

I am unmoved by Odeon's authoratative demands and happy to respond on this thread. I will not seek him out elsewhere but happy to reply to his obnoxious, pompous, dishonest, authorative, self-righteous, bloviating, indignation here. I do not do meek well and I will be damned if I will put up with his dishonesty and insults.

Odeon says "Al has a choice". Odeon has choices and hiatus or not, he was never the victim in our feud, any more than I was. He elevates my conduct well above its station to say it is all on me.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 11, 2017, 10:10:46 PM
Oh! thanks for the history, Al.  But if Odeon means AFF, that's the first i ever heard of anybody blaming you for that, and the nth time I've heard it was all Amy's fault :S.    So I'm still perplexed about this .
 
Who the heck is Minister of silly walks?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Genesis on November 11, 2017, 10:18:17 PM
Oh! thanks for the history, Al.  But if Odeon means AFF, that's the first i ever heard of anybody blaming you for that, and the nth time I've heard it was all Amy's fault :S.    So I'm still perplexed about this .
 
Who the heck is Minister of silly walks?

I have no idea  :M
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 11, 2017, 11:41:43 PM
Oh! thanks for the history, Al.  But if Odeon means AFF, that's the first i ever heard of anybody blaming you for that, and the nth time I've heard it was all Amy's fault :S.    So I'm still perplexed about this .
 
Who the heck is Minister of silly walks?

Right, it is who he means and yes you are right it was Amy and no, he and Amy blame me for it. They are alike.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 12, 2017, 02:19:26 AM
^ Ah. I knew that posting style rang a bell.  It all starts to make a lot more sense now.  I also see why old wounds would be feeling pretty raw for  certain people, ATM.

Damn. It's nice to see old friends getting back together etc , can appreciate them wanting to support each other,  but I2 is suddenly starting to look like a war zone , with battle lines being drawn up.
I predict all concerned becoming all the more firmly entrenched in whatever position they took in the first place. Hope i'm wrong. 
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 12, 2017, 02:53:14 AM
And no, Py, I'm not seeking your approval, I'm not seeking anyone's.

Did I imply you were?

I thought you were but it could be my mistake. Sorry, if so.

Quote
Al was instrumental in bringing down one board.

Say what? Which board are you referring to, and what happened?

AFF, based on what I've been told.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 12, 2017, 03:05:13 AM
Oh, and I don't much care for Al's 'historical truth', considering his behaviour and revisionism here.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 12, 2017, 03:26:11 AM
I'm sure we all have our personal slant on the historical truth. But to the best of my knowlege , consensus would tend to  side with Al there;  so, personally  I'll buy his version over the other one if I have to make a choice.

As for the situation here and now, I really can't take it seriously as a Forces of Light versus Forces of Darkness scenario. Looks to me  much more  like one bunch of silly aspies versus another bunch of silly aspies , a third bunch of silly aspies desperately attempting to build bridges. Oh! and fourth lot screaming "Shut up! The lot of you"

Personally, I've yet to see any convincing  evidence of anybody being dishonest( beyond the usual thing of fooling ourselves) never mind how much that word is bandied about. I think the sad and highly inconvenient fact is that we all pretty much mean what we say, God help us.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 12, 2017, 04:00:28 AM
And no, Py, I'm not seeking your approval, I'm not seeking anyone's.

Did I imply you were?

I thought you were but it could be my mistake. Sorry, if so.

Quote
Al was instrumental in bringing down one board.

Say what? Which board are you referring to, and what happened?

AFF, based on what I've been told.

No you havent been told that. In fact this has been already discussed and clarified in the two threads mentioned and so it would bedeliberate dishonesty and revisionism saying otherwise.

Not that I can't understand why you may be less than truthful nor paint me in a poor light but if you want to be honest you will need to understand that going agaunst public record with a dishonest piece of propaganda to smear me and my motives is fucking stupid.

Odeon you and everyone here knows that you are not starved for choice in my shortcomings and different things I have or done on I2. I am not exactly the most popular or well loved person. Most think I am a bit of an arsehole. You dont need to make up bullshit.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 12, 2017, 06:03:44 AM
Al, the fact is that I have been told exactly that. Calling me a liar won't change it in the slightest.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 12, 2017, 07:33:48 AM
Al, the fact is that I have been told exactly that. Calling me a liar won't change it in the slightest.

Facts do not pick sides and the consensus by people that were there spells out the narrative I have outlined, backed up by people that were there in two threads. The only two people that held onto that narrative that I can recall is Amy (who lied) and Gareth who believed her until questioned by me and then having it denounced by Pikajedi. After which he conceded and accepted it. ALL contained in those two threads. Black and white.

I do not know your relationship with Amy, (mind boggles) but I think even her closest and dearest know she is a crazy sow who could not lie straight in bed. I do not know of anyone else who would be there and invested in such a lie?

I suspect you are making it all up and for no decent reason as it has been thrashed out on this actual forum and consensus differs from the weak and dishonest narrative you are trying to spin.

As I say, you do not have to try too hard to find things with me that people on here will not like about me. Most people do not think I am particularly wonderful so trying to sell a useless piece of propaganda seems a little pointless and weak.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 12, 2017, 10:49:16 AM
Maybe I'm jumping to silly  conclusions,  but I assume  it was Minister of silly walks who told Odeon the other version, Al. Looks like a no-brainer to me. Or am I missing something?

 
Aspiesforfreedom. Brought down by Al's vendetta against the founders/admins of that site.

 :apondering:  Ofc. could be that third , unknown party told both Odeon and MoSW same story.  In any case , I see no reason to suppose  that Odeon just made the story up. Looks to me like he all-too-cleary believes it. Confirmation bias , maybe?

In any case , it only takes one person to start a rumour. You can' reasonably nor realistically accuse everybody who believes it of dishonesty. If somebody trust their  source, they will swallow it all-to-often .  Happens all the time,.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 12, 2017, 11:49:52 AM
Yeah... one likely highly biased account vs a one-line accusation. Have to read between the lines to see how close the parallels would be. The threads do provide more insight.

Dunno about anyone else but I'm glad to hear Odeon saying he's not going to pull an Amy Nelson... especially if that means not closing the site down unexpectedly without enough explanation.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 12, 2017, 12:01:41 PM

Dunno about anyone else but I'm glad to hear Odeon saying he's not going to pull an Amy Nelson...

Meh. That prolly just means he has better taste in women than Gareth has  :LOL:

Um. Couldn't resist that. Yeah, I'm surely very glad about it :)

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Genesis on November 12, 2017, 12:04:19 PM

Dunno about anyone else but I'm glad to hear Odeon saying he's not going to pull an Amy Nelson...

Meh. That prolly just means he has better taste in women than Gareth has  :LOL:

Um. Couldn't resist that. Yeah, I'm surely very glad about it :)

Gareth is basically the Graduate, while Amy is Mrs. Robinson (too soon?)
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 12, 2017, 12:28:17 PM

Dunno about anyone else but I'm glad to hear Odeon saying he's not going to pull an Amy Nelson...

Meh. That prolly just means he has better taste in women than Gareth has  :LOL:

Um. Couldn't resist that. Yeah, I'm surely very glad about it :)

You don't want me to answer that...  :poo:  :LOL:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 13, 2017, 11:04:28 AM
Maybe I'm jumping to silly  conclusions,  but I assume  it was Minister of silly walks who told Odeon the other version, Al. Looks like a no-brainer to me. Or am I missing something?

 
Aspiesforfreedom. Brought down by Al's vendetta against the founders/admins of that site.

 :apondering:  Ofc. could be that third , unknown party told both Odeon and MoSW same story.  In any case , I see no reason to suppose  that Odeon just made the story up. Looks to me like he all-too-cleary believes it. Confirmation bias , maybe?

In any case , it only takes one person to start a rumour. You can' reasonably nor realistically accuse everybody who believes it of dishonesty. If somebody trust their  source, they will swallow it all-to-often .  Happens all the time,.

In other words, you don't know my sources or what I'm basing my stance on but think I'm wrong nevertheless?

I find what I've heard credible because I've heard it from several sources, but also because I've seen first hand what Al does here. Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down but neither does anyone else other than Amy Nelson.

I'd like to close this with my favourite SNL quote: Before criticising someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticise them you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 13, 2017, 11:07:21 AM
Yeah... one likely highly biased account vs a one-line accusation. Have to read between the lines to see how close the parallels would be. The threads do provide more insight.

Dunno about anyone else but I'm glad to hear Odeon saying he's not going to pull an Amy Nelson... especially if that means not closing the site down unexpectedly without enough explanation.

Where's your sense of fun and adventure? :zoinks:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 13, 2017, 11:18:03 AM
 :lol1: Hiding behind the error message I got when I tried to take a backup of this place.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 13, 2017, 11:19:44 AM
:lol1: Hiding behind the error message I got when I tried to take a backup of this place.

Ah, the site is too large to back it up from SMF directly. I'll PM you.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 13, 2017, 11:52:18 AM
Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down.

Then why are you trying to claim otherwise??

You're just doing what you do best, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

This is just the latest example of you doing this, I've spotted it on numerous occasions.

I've got your bag of tricks fairly well figured out at this point.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 13, 2017, 11:56:14 AM
Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down.

Then why are you trying to claim otherwise??

You're just doing what you do best, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

This is just the latest example of you doing this, I've spotted it on numerous occasions.

I've got your bag of tricks fairly well figured out at this point.

Because I happen to believe that what I heard is credible and, if true, affects us directly. But then, you knew that.

I'll now look forward to you staying silent unless you know for a fact that what you're posting is true. In your case, this should be pretty much all the time.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 13, 2017, 01:20:35 PM
Maybe I'm jumping to silly  conclusions,  but I assume  it was Minister of silly walks who told Odeon the other version, Al. Looks like a no-brainer to me. Or am I missing something?

 
Aspiesforfreedom. Brought down by Al's vendetta against the founders/admins of that site.

 :apondering:  Ofc. could be that third , unknown party told both Odeon and MoSW same story.  In any case , I see no reason to suppose  that Odeon just made the story up. Looks to me like he all-too-cleary believes it. Confirmation bias , maybe?

In any case , it only takes one person to start a rumour. You can' reasonably nor realistically accuse everybody who believes it of dishonesty. If somebody trust their  source, they will swallow it all-to-often .  Happens all the time,.

In other words, you don't know my sources or what I'm basing my stance on but think I'm wrong nevertheless?

I find what I've heard credible because I've heard it from several sources, but also because I've seen first hand what Al does here. Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down but neither does anyone else other than Amy Nelson.

I'd like to close this with my favourite SNL quote: Before criticising someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticise them you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.

I doubt it. Again, directly after the event two tbreads and many members fro mm there posting here and not the general consensus but the entire discourse is one way traffic. They ALL agree with my description of what went down.

Credibility backs that given the cliseness to t gyme event, people involved and the shared perspective by so many.

Then we have you, running in complete contradiction to this with imaginary sources.

It makes you look like a liar or a misled fool willing to state lies as fact when he want to spread smear and propaganda.

Slimy
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 13, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down.

Then why are you trying to claim otherwise??

You're just doing what you do best, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

This is just the latest example of you doing this, I've spotted it on numerous occasions.

I've got your bag of tricks fairly well figured out at this point.

Because I happen to believe that what I heard is credible and, if true, affects us directly. But then, you knew that.

I'll now look forward to you staying silent unless you know for a fact that what you're posting is true. In your case, this should be pretty much all the time.

I call bullshit again.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 13, 2017, 03:23:53 PM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 13, 2017, 04:34:20 PM
Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down.

Then why are you trying to claim otherwise??

You're just doing what you do best, talking out of both sides of your mouth.

This is just the latest example of you doing this, I've spotted it on numerous occasions.

I've got your bag of tricks fairly well figured out at this point.

Because I happen to believe that what I heard is credible and, if true, affects us directly. But then, you knew that.

I'll now look forward to you staying silent unless you know for a fact that what you're posting is true. In your case, this should be pretty much all the time.

Aah, now one of your other favored tricks, shaming tactics.

Now here's why that's false.

Assuming you believed that, as a person who was trying to be honest as opposed to one who only wanted to smear, would admit that their source of info was limited and when confronted by direct witnesses to the event who contradicted that story, admit that you're probably wrong, or at least you don't know what you're talking about.

You on the other hand, play this wishy washy game of "gee maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong" so regardless of where the chips fall, you can still claim to be right and save face.

It's like you're the bastard younger half brother of Hillary Clinton or something.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 13, 2017, 04:35:18 PM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 13, 2017, 04:40:42 PM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

As I say, facts do not pick sides. Sometimes saying that something is your opinion doesn't imbue it with any more truth.

For example, I do not like Odeon and I do not like the increase in moderation creep on I2. HOWEVER,  if I start putting it around that I2 is now the most moderated forum in Autism spaces, this would be untrue and hearing it from others doesn't make it truer. I may have reason to say so and acknowledge the level of moderation as a problem but that is not the same as making the allegation or even the inference. Disliking Odeon does not make it truer nor make it more likely that I am more likely to believe dishonesty.

That is Odeon now. Amy was responsible for Amy's actions on AFF. AFF getting closed down was due to her reactive volatile and authoritarian behaviour. Nothing more nothing less.

The fact too is I was already gone when she spat the dummy because people questioned why I was gone and wanted me back. She did not like that. The vendetta, bullying and casual narrative falls rather flat
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Jack on November 13, 2017, 04:49:02 PM
I'd like to close this with my favourite SNL quote: Before criticising someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticise them you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.

One of my favorite quotes is also a Jack Handey.

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
~Jack Handey
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 13, 2017, 05:05:47 PM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.

That was kind of my point.  :LOL: Or am I misunderstanding you here?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 13, 2017, 07:57:09 PM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.

That was kind of my point.  :LOL: Or am I misunderstanding you here?

If I went to WP and said, because I don't like Odeon, that 12 was the most moderated forum in the autistic forums space and that it was more moderated than those boards that have since closed, then some from there stated it as a truth to you guys, would this simply be a matter of opinion or a false and dishonest allegation?

Let's be candid. I think the level of moderation creep from Odeon is shameful and if he continues, it may one day reach some other heavily moderated forums BUT I am not going to dishonest state bullshit to sell a narrative. It would be dishonest to say this is as heavily moderated as WP for example.

With the above hypothetical,  what if Rabbit from Hell, Robert N, Meadow, Buttcoffee and TCO all agreed with my smear, would that mean the statement was any more credible or correct?

This is the bullshit Odeon is trying.  He ought to have plenty of material without resorting to base dishonesty. This all presumes his sources are not simply him making it all up to smear me and further his narrative by methods fair or foul
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 13, 2017, 08:09:43 PM
If you actually believed it, I don't think it would be dishonest.

That said, I don't need you to explain Odeon to me, I can form my own opinions.   :sleepy:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 13, 2017, 09:28:38 PM
If you actually believed it, I don't think it would be dishonest.

That said, I don't need you to explain Odeon to me, I can form my own opinions.   :sleepy:

I dont need to. Just replying. Sharing perspectives.

I think he is peddling dishonesty as fact-based claims and when called on it, is faking ignorance.

I think its slimy
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 12:57:03 AM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.

The irony. :LMAO:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 12:59:36 AM
Maybe I'm jumping to silly  conclusions,  but I assume  it was Minister of silly walks who told Odeon the other version, Al. Looks like a no-brainer to me. Or am I missing something?

 
Aspiesforfreedom. Brought down by Al's vendetta against the founders/admins of that site.

 :apondering:  Ofc. could be that third , unknown party told both Odeon and MoSW same story.  In any case , I see no reason to suppose  that Odeon just made the story up. Looks to me like he all-too-cleary believes it. Confirmation bias , maybe?

In any case , it only takes one person to start a rumour. You can' reasonably nor realistically accuse everybody who believes it of dishonesty. If somebody trust their  source, they will swallow it all-to-often .  Happens all the time,.

In other words, you don't know my sources or what I'm basing my stance on but think I'm wrong nevertheless?

I find what I've heard credible because I've heard it from several sources, but also because I've seen first hand what Al does here. Obviously I don't *know* why AFF closed down but neither does anyone else other than Amy Nelson.

I'd like to close this with my favourite SNL quote: Before criticising someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticise them you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.

I doubt it. Again, directly after the event two tbreads and many members fro mm there posting here and not the general consensus but the entire discourse is one way traffic. They ALL agree with my description of what went down.

Credibility backs that given the cliseness to t gyme event, people involved and the shared perspective by so many.

Then we have you, running in complete contradiction to this with imaginary sources.

It makes you look like a liar or a misled fool willing to state lies as fact when he want to spread smear and propaganda.

Slimy

Imaginary? All?

You're being staggeringly dishonest. Is this your guilt speaking?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 01:12:50 AM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

As I say, facts do not picks sides. Sometimes saying that something is your opinion doesn't imbue it with any more truth.

For example, I do not like Odeon and I do not like the increase in moderation creep on I2. HOWEVER,  if I start putting it around that I2 is now the most moderated forum in Autism spaces, this would be untrue and hearing it from others doesn't make it more true. I may have reason to say so and acknowledge the level of moderation as a problem but that is not the same as making the allegation or even the inference. Disliking Odeon does not make it more true nor make it more likely that I am more likely to believe dishonesty.

That is Odeon now. Amy was responsible for Amy's actions on AFF. AFF getting closed down was due to her reactive volitile and authoritarian behaviour. Nothing more nothing left.

The fact too is I was already gone when she spat the dummy because people quwstioned why I was gone and wanted me back. She did not like that. The vendetta, bullying and casual narrative falls rather flat

I find it highly credible that your behaviour was instrumental in the closing of AFF it and my sources back it up. I can't verify it, but then, neither can you. Facts do pick sides, in this case. They are with Amy.

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 01:16:38 AM
If you actually believed it, I don't think it would be dishonest.

That said, I don't need you to explain Odeon to me, I can form my own opinions.   :sleepy:

I dont need to. Just replying. Sharing perspectives.

I think he is peddling dishonesty as fact-based claims and when called on it, is faking ignorance.

I think its slimy

I look at your behaviour here and I hear stories from people who were there. Nothing ignorant or dishonest about any of it. I think you've become as toxic to this place as you were to AFF.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 14, 2017, 05:10:14 AM
Odeon, sometimes rumours circulated privately by sources that prefer to remain  anonymous turn out to contain good info, but most often they don't.  Most often they are put about by the real villain of the piece, and are designed to destroy their enemies' credibilty, or otherwise sow mischief.

For my own part , I was dismissive of your sources, simply  because this very much appears to be a case-in-point.  Well , maybe, just maybe,  I've dismissed  some good and relevant info out-of-hand   but heck, you've offered us no other way  of assessing  it for ourselves have you? You can't seriously expect people to eat your opinion on the matter out of your hand?

I do have concerns about Al's recent  behaviour- I've made no secret of that. But the accusation that he brought down AFF was left-of-field.  And I do very much want to be fair to him.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 14, 2017, 05:37:58 AM
Thankfully on I2 we back wahat we say rather than make slimy anonymous claims with nothing to back them but hot air, snark, dishonesty, misrepresentation and impotence:

I find it highly credible that your behaviour was instrumental in the closing of AFF it and my sources back it up. I can't verify it, but then, neither can you. Facts do pick sides, in this case. They are with Amy.

Oh, and I don't much care for Al's 'historical truth', considering his behaviour and revisionism here.

You're being staggeringly dishonest. Is this your guilt speaking?


VS

Yes, it is a little historical revisionism. But let's spell it out. I CAN confirm this all in another two threads on here.

Many years ago on AFF Amy and Gareth got busy in real life stuff and left the forum. They left the place to the rest of us on the forum. The mods like Evil Zakkie and our beloved CBC had limited powers and were not Admins. They could not ban but as I remember could delete and edit posts.

There were a few people who generally countered trolls and people that would seek to harm the people or culture there whilst the Admins were asleep at the wheel. Max the Bear was one and so was yours truly.

The forum built up and went from strength to strength over the next couple of years it became a hub of activism and support and had a layered culture. Sounds great right?

Then Amy and Gareth barged in and Amy insinuated herself in the thick of things and start pushing her odious personality on things. She insulted people and what they were up to and told us what to stop and what to concentrate on and had no clue who was who and what. She started barking orders and giving warnings. The people revolted.

Some organised very indirect protests such as logging off for a day or so and some changed their avatar to one with a gag on it. (We are looking at about 50 members to give you an indication of the size of this). I was asked but decided to do what I normally do and go to the source and did. I went in hard on her for all the shit she was causing.

She banned me and about 7 others and that 50 left. Then she went through and "sanitised the board" and edited it and for her coup de grace she publicly blamed me for organising the protests.

One banned member came back onto the board soon afterwards and through no little work and generousity of spirit graduated his standing. He became an Admin and was well regarded by Gareth. Amy treated him in general with disdain and sometimes actively worked against him. The work Pikajedi did on the forum was solid and his ability to dance and sidestep around Amy's bullshit was masterful.

He recognised pretty quickly who I was when I came back and realising too that it was bullshit for me getting shitcanned, allowed me on as he had been allowed on by Gareth.

Amy had been off and Pikajedi was mainly running the show and with Gareth piping in occasionally. Amy did frequent the chat but was not that interested interacting. Things were pretty okay. The once great AFF had never really recovered from the heights of maybe 60-65 active and contributing members before the purge, but it had built up a little and such.

Then in comes Amy. She starts throwing her weight around and doing the same sort of shit she did years before. Most people (unlike previously) were cowed, I was not. I pointed out every instance of her stupidity and dishonesty and why it was so. She did not like that. She banned me.

The next day everyone revolted and asked why she banned me and demanded me back. She threw a hissy fit and closed the forum.

THAT is the historical truth behind it and it is evidenced on here.

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,19145.0.html

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,21384.0.html




Gareth (Owner Amin of AFF) talking about the first time they did the bannings and purge and

Some people didn't come back, a lot did. Me and Amy were busy (with what doesn't matter - the time when AFF was our only big purpose in life is passed for better or worse), we came back and Amy was made to feel a little like maria and altair returning to masyaf (yeah, i'm still addicted to Assassins Creed - long story short, they leave the assassin order after leaving it in good hands, they return to find it a shadow of its former self with no training happening and themselves very unwelcome, they get chased back out again only to return later after killing the new leader).

Gareth Owner and Admin of AFF talking about rewriting the history on AFF after the purge (rather than and perhaps to cover for Amy rather than admit the truth of what happened and her part in things)

It was perhaps a rewrite - we got rid of a lot of posts which caused nothing but conflict.
Think about the greater purpose and goals of AFF - they're hopeless if we dwell on old ingroup conflicts and drama - getting rid of those old posts allowed things to move on a bit.

Gareth Owner and Admin of AFF talking about once again being away from AFFand leaving AFF to prosper

Food for thought:
Right now AFF is in the middle of another extended period free of the presence of myself and Amy (I only just made a few posts there in the past few days after a long period of absence). If AFF is currently off-track, it is not due to my own or Amy's bad leadership leading it down the wrong path - at present we're leading it nowhere and trusting the community to lead itself.

Gareth - Owner/Admin of AFF - Admitting that their purge was not a great idea

Quote
Of the activists that you had you were basically left with two. Skyblue and KenG.
Of the other active posters, Guess Who, Alison, Marcia, Windy....who else? 40 others which generated a lot of posts and interaction simply disappeared all within a week. Not really one of your better moments, huh?
Indeed

Pikajedi Admin of AFF in respect to who the ringleader was in the first purging and what my role ACTUALLY was - hint - exactly what I said

Furthermore if you DID want to know who was organising all of this it would really come down to two people (if not me) wouldn't it? Think back on who were two of the biggest personalities there at the time. It will be one or the other. It simply was not me.

Al is Bloke is Rossco.
He was not a ringleader of the "main" protests, he was off doing his own thing - directly to what was viewed as the root of the problem, to talk it out. Yes, Rossco is blunt, he is direct, he doesn't pull his punches - hell, sometimes he's downright rude; But he's not a weasel. If he's ever going to stab you in the back it'll be to your face, to steal from Firefly.

I'll tell you straight up who the main shitstirrer was - Max the Bear.

This is why I didn't ban Bloke when I knew full well he was Rossco; His ban, like my own, Bardwolfs and a few others, were completely unfair and kneejerk - and in the case of Bardwolf and at least one other, I've undone them.


Max the Bear can eat shit, though.

*Edit*

Also, can we move this somewhere Guests can't see it

Gareth owner of AFF admitting he was wrong (and Amy's narrative that I was the ringleader was and is bullshit)

Furthermore if you DID want to know who was organising all of this it would really come down to two people (if not me) wouldn't it? Think back on who were two of the biggest personalities there at the time. It will be one or the other. It simply was not me.

Al is Bloke is Rossco.
He was not a ringleader of the "main" protests, he was off doing his own thing - directly to what was viewed as the root of the problem, to talk it out. Yes, Rossco is blunt, he is direct, he doesn't pull his punches - hell, sometimes he's downright rude; But he's not a weasel. If he's ever going to stab you in the back it'll be to your face, to steal from Firefly.

I'll tell you straight up who the main shitstirrer was - Max the Bear.

This is why I didn't ban Bloke when I knew full well he was Rossco; His ban, like my own, Bardwolfs and a few others, were completely unfair and kneejerk - and in the case of Bardwolf and at least one other, I've undone them.

Max the Bear can eat shit, though.

*Edit*

Also, can we move this somewhere Guests can't see it

Pikajedi said this to me on MSN too, i'm pretty much forced to go along with it at this point.

Member of AFF - El Presidente - on AFF closing AFTER I was already banned

Update! They have closed the AFF board because a few of us dared to support a banned member. No doubt they are editing our posts to make us look bad. Al is right about double standards.

SG member of AFF on AFF closing AFTER I was already banned

OMFG

AFF SHUT DOWN...

(either that or I got banned  :dunno: )

Why?

BECAUSE MOST EVERYONE WANTS A RETURN OF BLOKE
.

SG member of AFF - not use of the word scuffle. I had a disagreement with her NOT a feud or a long term deal. She came back from the above mentioned hiatus and started in on everyone as she did years before and then got to me and ....very quickly banned me. I was generally well liked there.

I hardly know what is going on.

Apparently Bloke got into a scuffle and Amy banned him, permanently.

Then El-prez started a thread "Bring Bloke Back"....there was shitton of support for bloke- we all love him, minus a few members who remained neutral.

Then that thread got locked.

So I created a thread "BLOKE" to basically continue el-prez's thread since his got locked.

Next thing I know the site is down.

Aspie Momma AFF member on the atmosphere when Amy came back and handling things badly AND my support again.

I am disappointed.

By reacting this way instead of engaging Bloke, Bloke comes out on top, especially in light of the fact that he had so much support after the ban. I haven't been there much lately, but I would probably have showed my support as well. I doubt he did anything truly ban-worthy.

By closing the site they are cutting off the only source of meaningful human contact for some. Sure, it is their site, but it means a lot to a lot of people. Some degree of responsibility is taken on because of this whether they like it or not.

After what happened recently with the shuffling if mods/admins this is too much. It was handled very poorly. I don't understand why Genesis could not have been kept on as mod. It seems a but controlling, and this doesn't help that perception.

Now everyone is going to walk on eggshells again, lest they land on the receiving end of a witch hunt style banning spree.

As much as I love I2, AFF is different. It tends to serve the needs of younger people and those who are DXed as adults.  It is smaller than WP, so it is easier to connect with others.

Larry and I were just talking about the idea if putting something together for younger Autists. Maybe this is the kick in the ass we need.

*sighs*

I hope it isn't how it seems...

Cynara member of AFF supporting me and Amy's twattery

I posted support for Les, I cant access AFF.
This is twattery, are we all supposed to be grown-ups?
Are we all banned for the sin of disagreement with Amy?
   :dunno:

....And our favourite bovine, and member of AFF

I hardly know what is going on.

Apparently Bloke got into a scuffle and Amy banned him, permanently.

Then El-prez started a thread "Bring Bloke Back"....there was shitton of support for bloke- we all love him, minus a few members who remained neutral.

Then that thread got locked.

So I created a thread "BLOKE" to basically continue el-prez's thread since his got locked.

Next thing I know the site is down.

Is this something like a "five years itch" at AFF?

Shutting down the site, and Bloke being permabanned, and people supporting him. And, most and for all, Amy going out of her mind, looks like something that happened in July/August 5 years ago.

Have there been admins banned too?


So.....Odeon are you going to put up or shut up or continue being dishonest, weaselly, slimy, and impotent?

Again, there is plenty of material so much easier than resorting to lies to try to sell a bad lie.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 14, 2017, 05:55:46 AM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.

The irony. :LMAO:

Shaming tactic and hubris.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 14, 2017, 06:04:55 AM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.

The irony. :LMAO:

Shaming tactic and hubris.
No, actually, that was really funny, coming from you.   :LOL:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 14, 2017, 06:17:22 AM
As a vet of several defunct fora, I'm in a position to make the following observation:

One very effective  way to destroy a forum is to goad the biggest mouth on the forum into making a bunch of wild accusations against Admin.  Then campaign for same to be banned. Once he's  banned, you start shooting down all his sympathisers.  A good way to do this is to circulate a bunch of nasty rumours about them, with emphasis on "dishonesty"  , so that any inconvenient truth that leaks out can be easily dismissed as  a lie.  Whilst circulating said rumours you offer a very pausible reason as to why  your identity should not be made public, of course. 

 Eventually you get a good half of the forum either at each other's throats or paranoid as fuck. Or both, ofc.  Eventually Admin succumbs to the toxic atmosphere and pulls the plug.  If you're really clever about it, the whole fiasco gets blamed on Motormouth, and you come out smelling of roses. 

I thought that kind of thing was unlikely to work on I2, but I'm seriously beginning to wonder. On the surface of it, this surely looks like a variation on that theme.  And even if nobody's pulling our strings after all (that's pure speculation on my part)  it surely is a toxic atmosphere, and cries of "Liar!" are not helping in the least.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 14, 2017, 06:32:34 AM
As a vet of several defunct fora, I'm in a position to make the following observation:

One very effective  way to destroy a forum is to goad the biggest mouth on the forum into making a bunch of wild accusations against Admin.  Then campaign for same to be banned. Once he's  banned, you start shooting down all his sympathisers.  A good way to do this is to circulate a bunch of nasty rumours about them, with emphasis on "dishonesty"  , so that any inconvenient truth that leaks out can be easily dismissed as  a lie.  Whilst circulating said rumours you offer a very pausible reason as to why  your identity should not be made public, of course. 

 Eventually you get a good half of the forum either at each other's throats or paranoid as fuck. Or both, ofc.  Eventually Admin succumbs to the toxic atmosphere and pulls the plug.  If you're really clever about it, the whole fiasco gets blamed on Motormouth, and you come out smelling of roses. 

I thought that kind of thing was unlikely to work on I2, but I'm seriously beginning to wonder. On the surface of it, this surely looks like a variation on that theme.  And even if nobody's pulling our strings after all (that's pure speculation on my part)  it surely is a toxic atmosphere.

One irony in this is that despite everything, I have said that I am happy to contain my ill will relating to Odeon, here (in this thread) and only in as much as replying. I have agreed to that. Odeon can continue things here or not but I will not seek it out elsewhere. Once it dies down here, I do not press it elsewhere.

What you said made perfect sense which is why in a previous example, I said:


Let's be candid. I think the level of moderation creep from Odeon is shameful and if he continues, it may one day reach some other heavily moderated forums BUT I am not going to dishonest state bullshit to sell a narrative. It would be dishonest to say this is as heavily moderated as WP for example.

With the above hypothetical,  what if Rabbit from Hell, Robert N, Meadow, Buttcoffee and TCO all agreed with my smear, would that mean the statement was any more credible or correct?

This is the bullshit Odeon is trying.  He ought to have plenty of material without resorting to base dishonesty. This all presumes his sources are not simply him making it all up to smear me and further his narrative by methods fair or foul
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 12:51:13 PM
Odeon, sometimes rumours circulated privately by sources that prefer to remain  anonymous turn out to contain good info, but most often they don't.  Most often they are put about by the real villain of the piece, and are designed to destroy their enemies' credibilty, or otherwise sow mischief.

For my own part , I was dismissive of your sources, simply  because this very much appears to be a case-in-point.  Well , maybe, just maybe,  I've dismissed  some good and relevant info out-of-hand   but heck, you've offered us no other way  of assessing  it for ourselves have you? You can't seriously expect people to eat your opinion on the matter out of your hand?

I do have concerns about Al's recent  behaviour- I've made no secret of that. But the accusation that he brought down AFF was left-of-field.  And I do very much want to be fair to him.

/shrugs

We'll have to disagree.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 12:52:23 PM
What's this about imaginary sources? It's clear Ministry of silly walks is one source, and as far as I know  :tinfoil: they are neither Gareth nor Amy. The threads point out a bunch of other people who have their own takes on what happened and how it affects them. So why insist that ALL agree with you in full?

People are entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.

The irony. :LMAO:

Shaming tactic and hubris.

Oh, is it now?  :hahaha:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
As a vet of several defunct fora, I'm in a position to make the following observation:

One very effective  way to destroy a forum is to goad the biggest mouth on the forum into making a bunch of wild accusations against Admin.  Then campaign for same to be banned. Once he's  banned, you start shooting down all his sympathisers.  A good way to do this is to circulate a bunch of nasty rumours about them, with emphasis on "dishonesty"  , so that any inconvenient truth that leaks out can be easily dismissed as  a lie.  Whilst circulating said rumours you offer a very pausible reason as to why  your identity should not be made public, of course. 

 Eventually you get a good half of the forum either at each other's throats or paranoid as fuck. Or both, ofc.  Eventually Admin succumbs to the toxic atmosphere and pulls the plug.  If you're really clever about it, the whole fiasco gets blamed on Motormouth, and you come out smelling of roses. 

I thought that kind of thing was unlikely to work on I2, but I'm seriously beginning to wonder. On the surface of it, this surely looks like a variation on that theme.  And even if nobody's pulling our strings after all (that's pure speculation on my part)  it surely is a toxic atmosphere, and cries of "Liar!" are not helping in the least.

You seem convinced that strings are being pulled. I don't think that's the case and I've been around for some time, too.

Al's said that he'll contain his bs to this thread which should be enough to contain the toxicity, too. We'll see. As you might have guessed, I don't trust him.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 14, 2017, 01:05:27 PM
As for the final demise of AFF, does anyone know Amy well enough to simply ask?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 14, 2017, 02:28:44 PM
As a vet of several defunct fora, I'm in a position to make the following observation:

One very effective  way to destroy a forum is to goad the biggest mouth on the forum into making a bunch of wild accusations against Admin.  Then campaign for same to be banned. Once he's  banned, you start shooting down all his sympathisers.  A good way to do this is to circulate a bunch of nasty rumours about them, with emphasis on "dishonesty"  , so that any inconvenient truth that leaks out can be easily dismissed as  a lie.  Whilst circulating said rumours you offer a very pausible reason as to why  your identity should not be made public, of course. 

 Eventually you get a good half of the forum either at each other's throats or paranoid as fuck. Or both, ofc.  Eventually Admin succumbs to the toxic atmosphere and pulls the plug.  If you're really clever about it, the whole fiasco gets blamed on Motormouth, and you come out smelling of roses. 

I thought that kind of thing was unlikely to work on I2, but I'm seriously beginning to wonder. On the surface of it, this surely looks like a variation on that theme.  And even if nobody's pulling our strings after all (that's pure speculation on my part)  it surely is a toxic atmosphere, and cries of "Liar!" are not helping in the least.

You seem convinced that strings are being pulled. I don't think that's the case and I've been around for some time, too.

Al's said that he'll contain his bs to this thread which should be enough to contain the toxicity, too. We'll see. As you might have guessed, I don't trust him.
Just to make myself clear:  there's a big difference , in my vocabulary, between "beginning to suspect", and "It's a fact".  Also, in my vocabulary, "that's pure speculation on my part" is more than a meaningless blast of hot air.

On other fora , I've been in the unusual position of  knowing exactly what was going on, exactly who was resposible, and was able to gather a bunch of hard evidence. I've even been personally targetted by one or two of those subterranean smear campaigns, on account of my knowing too much.  If the same were true here, I'd be a lot more explicit . I wouldn't limit myself to pointing out worrying patterns, I would bloody well pounce.

It's not just a question of being " around for a long time" .  How many fora have fallen to pieces around you, Odeon? And how much did you learn about the subterranean goings-on? I learned a lot more than your average Admin would ever learn -  largely  because people tend to share their personal problems with me, and these things do get very , very personal.  And I ask people  questions like "WTF happened to your self-confidence?" and the answer occasionally  turns out to be a ruthless bullying campaign, that nobody knew about, nor even suspected , because it all happened behind the scenes. (and yes, I've seen the actual damning  PMs)

Meantime, the people running to Admin and making complaints and accusations were not the people who were being damaged; quite the opposite, most often.

So, I think I most likely know a lot more than you about that sort of thing. But I'm open to being surprised.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 14, 2017, 02:50:55 PM
Amy lies. But I am, again, not about dishonesty and hot air. Here is me backing myself.

Here is the lie she spread about me AND told her husband

Hey Gareth why did you and Amy lie about reasons for those mass-banning those years ago?
I don't recall ever lieing about the reason for a ban, but then if i'm a liar there is of course no point in listening to me is there?

Quote
It depends entirely, doesn't it Gareth? Sometimes justifications, right or wrong, paint a picture from the poster, that the person interviewing them can not paint. Sometimes it is good to see how someone manipulates truth. Sometimes we are amazed at honesty from a place of dark deceit.

But hey you "don't recall"? Let me help you with at least one instance and we can work from there.
You supported the lie that Amy sprouted publicly that Rossco was organising a group of people to attack Amy and yourself. That was of course Bullshit, but Amy endorsed it publicly. Rossco always went straight to the source of the problem, Amy, at every instance without organising anything with any one. Also without involving himself in things like the gagging avatar thing or whatever. This is whilst you were doing your best to distance yourself from any direct involvement.

When Rossco was banned this was the reason given, that he was the ringleader to these actions. She stated she had proof given by Pm but could not publish it. This too was bullshit as there was no proof, because there was no truth behind the allegation. It was just a sneaky manipulative lie that she could tell, whilst pretending to hide behind the good form of allowing the non-existent "whistleblower" anonimity

There was no whistleblower. No Pm. Just a very angry lady, to whom you are married, wanting to force her will and make a somewhat plausible smear and ban on Rossco. She was prepared to lie to get it.

Here is Callaway asking a very logical question as to how to get Amy to disprove the lie

Why don't you just ask Amy to show you the PM she received that accused Rossco of organizing members to attack you?  Then you could see what evidence the person who PMed her gave to support this allegation against him, or whether there was any evidence.   

Gareth realising that she had lied to him again

I'd rather not bother her with digging up that old drama, that's why.

Pikajedi bodyslamming the lie and him realising she lied to him again

Furthermore if you DID want to know who was organising all of this it would really come down to two people (if not me) wouldn't it? Think back on who were two of the biggest personalities there at the time. It will be one or the other. It simply was not me.

Al is Bloke is Rossco.
He was not a ringleader of the "main" protests, he was off doing his own thing - directly to what was viewed as the root of the problem, to talk it out. Yes, Rossco is blunt, he is direct, he doesn't pull his punches - hell, sometimes he's downright rude; But he's not a weasel. If he's ever going to stab you in the back it'll be to your face, to steal from Firefly.

I'll tell you straight up who the main shitstirrer was - Max the Bear.

This is why I didn't ban Bloke when I knew full well he was Rossco; His ban, like my own, Bardwolfs and a few others, were completely unfair and kneejerk - and in the case of Bardwolf and at least one other, I've undone them.

Max the Bear can eat shit, though.

*Edit*

Also, can we move this somewhere Guests can't see it

Pikajedi said this to me on MSN too, i'm pretty much forced to go along with it at this point.

Yet Odeon thinks it is best to see whether Amy will stick to the lie. (Hint: She will. If she is prepared to tell her husband the lie she will tell anyone here the same lie)


Odeon are you going to back your narrative. I have backed mine Twice now and you had still use anonymous secret sources that allegedly told you something. I have it all here in black and white in words that are not my own. Could you start backing yourself. We both made big claims and I have backed mine.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Lestat on November 15, 2017, 10:42:48 AM
The little bitch could just as easily have cropped one bit of information from such a PM (the username) and posted an otherwise intact screencap.  She seemed to take having the focus of the limelight moved away from her being center-stage pretty badly. But an attack? was it fuck.

As for max the limp wristed ursine AIDs-monger, there is one answer to that little fag. And it involves being stuck on a broomhandle, hammered into the ground, throat first, whilst a 'beer bong' arrangement of funnel and drainpipe is put in the other end and cheapo drain cleaner grade concentrated sulfuric acid poured down the funnel, followed by a half liter or so of super-glue.

Suppose he could be taken off the broomhandle after that, see how far he manages to crawl. That dirty, Hep-C-spreading gutter full of sewage has a lot to answer for. I'm just glad he isn't likely to breed :P
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 15, 2017, 11:26:20 AM
As a vet of several defunct fora, I'm in a position to make the following observation:

One very effective  way to destroy a forum is to goad the biggest mouth on the forum into making a bunch of wild accusations against Admin.  Then campaign for same to be banned. Once he's  banned, you start shooting down all his sympathisers.  A good way to do this is to circulate a bunch of nasty rumours about them, with emphasis on "dishonesty"  , so that any inconvenient truth that leaks out can be easily dismissed as  a lie.  Whilst circulating said rumours you offer a very pausible reason as to why  your identity should not be made public, of course. 

 Eventually you get a good half of the forum either at each other's throats or paranoid as fuck. Or both, ofc.  Eventually Admin succumbs to the toxic atmosphere and pulls the plug.  If you're really clever about it, the whole fiasco gets blamed on Motormouth, and you come out smelling of roses. 

I thought that kind of thing was unlikely to work on I2, but I'm seriously beginning to wonder. On the surface of it, this surely looks like a variation on that theme.  And even if nobody's pulling our strings after all (that's pure speculation on my part)  it surely is a toxic atmosphere, and cries of "Liar!" are not helping in the least.

You seem convinced that strings are being pulled. I don't think that's the case and I've been around for some time, too.

Al's said that he'll contain his bs to this thread which should be enough to contain the toxicity, too. We'll see. As you might have guessed, I don't trust him.
Just to make myself clear:  there's a big difference , in my vocabulary, between "beginning to suspect", and "It's a fact".  Also, in my vocabulary, "that's pure speculation on my part" is more than a meaningless blast of hot air.

On other fora , I've been in the unusual position of  knowing exactly what was going on, exactly who was resposible, and was able to gather a bunch of hard evidence. I've even been personally targetted by one or two of those subterranean smear campaigns, on account of my knowing too much.  If the same were true here, I'd be a lot more explicit . I wouldn't limit myself to pointing out worrying patterns, I would bloody well pounce.

It's not just a question of being " around for a long time" .  How many fora have fallen to pieces around you, Odeon? And how much did you learn about the subterranean goings-on? I learned a lot more than your average Admin would ever learn -  largely  because people tend to share their personal problems with me, and these things do get very , very personal.  And I ask people  questions like "WTF happened to your self-confidence?" and the answer occasionally  turns out to be a ruthless bullying campaign, that nobody knew about, nor even suspected , because it all happened behind the scenes. (and yes, I've seen the actual damning  PMs)

Meantime, the people running to Admin and making complaints and accusations were not the people who were being damaged; quite the opposite, most often.

So, I think I most likely know a lot more than you about that sort of thing. But I'm open to being surprised.

I didn't know this was a competition. I'm not sure what is to be gained by one but certain that I don't plan to participate. You think what you think and I think what I think. Deal?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Lestat on November 15, 2017, 02:42:21 PM
I see no atttempt on walkie's part to make some sort of emotionally-ruled competitive event take place. She has nothing to gain from doing so as far as I can see.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 15, 2017, 04:30:09 PM
I see no atttempt on walkie's part to make some sort of emotionally-ruled competitive event take place. She has nothing to gain from doing so as far as I can see.

Nor I.

Odeon made some big claims that smeared me and stated them as dact based statements and when I argued the polar opposite, he said that "I" was being dishonest and engaging in history revisionism.

So I backed everything I said with other people's words including 2 of the 3 Admins.

Now it is on him to show he is not lies and hot air and back his big claims.

I can, he can't.  Who is credible?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Lestat on November 15, 2017, 04:55:41 PM
A principle fundamental to science, and to scientists, is that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', and yes, if it is a third party making the claims against somebody, the onus is upon them to prove those claims true, not for the party the claims are made against to prove otherwise, so as to disallow a 'win by default', which in logic, is not a valid outcome.

For example, if you were to accuse me of being a paedophile (and I'm not for a minute suggesting you have or are), it would rest upon YOU to prove that *I* had abused the child, not my responsibility to prove that I did not. You would be the one who must present the evidence, and not I the one who had to refute all hypothetical possible sources of that which could potentially be seen as evidence by SOME party, by however slim a margin. The latter equates to a herculean task, and one both impossible and impractical, for it is not possible to prove a negative. One can of course prove a person IS something or DID something, but proving that same person ISN'T  that thing, or that they did NOT do a thing is quite different and logically impossible. And what is more, demanding the accused prove their innocence rather than demanding the accuser prove the guilt of the accused is neither fair nor reasonable. That gives way too much (false and undeserved) of a shadowy, nasty sort of pseudo-credibility to accusers at the expense of the party facing the accusation.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 15, 2017, 06:07:15 PM
Quote
I really can't believe you all bought it!

How much am I paying for all this crap anyway?  :zoinks:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 15, 2017, 06:55:39 PM
well, guys. i was implying that odeon might have a been a tad hasty and over-credulous, even that he might have been played by somebody.  I don't seriously expect him to say "Oops, yeah. That's a thought" . I think i got off pretty lightly, there.
As for the accusation that you vbrought down AFF, Al , looks like nobody else takes it seriously, doesn't it? I  do believe it's been pretty well laughed out of court by now, regardless of whether Odeon admits that  or not. Might be wrong, but  I think we can safely move on.
I mean, hey! the guy got egg on his face, here.  What do we expect him to do about that? Take a selfie, and post it on the front page? Nah, might be fun, but not gonna happen.

 
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 15, 2017, 07:19:29 PM
well, guys. i was implying that odeon might have a been a tad hasty and over-credulous, even that he might have been played by somebody.  I don't seriously expect him to say "Oops, yeah. That's a thought" . I think i got off pretty lightly, there.
As for the accusation that you vbrought down AFF, Al , looks like nobody else takes it seriously, doesn't it? I  do believe it's been pretty well laughed out of court by now, regardless of whether Odeon admits that  or not. Might be wrong, but  I think we can safely move on.
I mean, hey! the guy got egg on his face, here.  What do we expect him to do about that? Take a selfie, and post it on the front page? Nah, might be fun, but not gonna happen.

I'd settle for him admitting he was a lying asshat that can't back himself....but yes you are right here.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 15, 2017, 10:00:16 PM
I'd settle for fifty bucks, but I'm easy like that.  :zoinks:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 01:01:44 AM
I see no atttempt on walkie's part to make some sort of emotionally-ruled competitive event take place. She has nothing to gain from doing so as far as I can see.

Nor I.

Odeon made some big claims that smeared me and stated them as dact based statements and when I argued the polar opposite, he said that "I" was being dishonest and engaging in history revisionism.

So I backed everything I said with other people's words including 2 of the 3 Admins.

Now it is on him to show he is not lies and hot air and back his big claims.

I can, he can't.  Who is credible?

Arguing with you is utterly pointless. Also, quoting people who weren't behind the decision to close down AFF amounts to a lot of hot air, nothing more. I have heard opposing opinions that I find credible, especially in light of your behaviour here, and so the difference between me and you now is that I don't quote my sources. Why should I? I already know what you are and won't allow what happened at AFF to happen here.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 01:06:33 AM
A principle fundamental to science, and to scientists, is that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', and yes, if it is a third party making the claims against somebody, the onus is upon them to prove those claims true, not for the party the claims are made against to prove otherwise, so as to disallow a 'win by default', which in logic, is not a valid outcome.

For example, if you were to accuse me of being a paedophile (and I'm not for a minute suggesting you have or are), it would rest upon YOU to prove that *I* had abused the child, not my responsibility to prove that I did not. You would be the one who must present the evidence, and not I the one who had to refute all hypothetical possible sources of that which could potentially be seen as evidence by SOME party, by however slim a margin. The latter equates to a herculean task, and one both impossible and impractical, for it is not possible to prove a negative. One can of course prove a person IS something or DID something, but proving that same person ISN'T  that thing, or that they did NOT do a thing is quite different and logically impossible. And what is more, demanding the accused prove their innocence rather than demanding the accuser prove the guilt of the accused is neither fair nor reasonable. That gives way too much (false and undeserved) of a shadowy, nasty sort of pseudo-credibility to accusers at the expense of the party facing the accusation.

This is not science, though, it's simply stopping a bully.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 01:16:23 AM
well, guys. i was implying that odeon might have a been a tad hasty and over-credulous, even that he might have been played by somebody.  I don't seriously expect him to say "Oops, yeah. That's a thought" . I think i got off pretty lightly, there.
As for the accusation that you vbrought down AFF, Al , looks like nobody else takes it seriously, doesn't it? I  do believe it's been pretty well laughed out of court by now, regardless of whether Odeon admits that  or not. Might be wrong, but  I think we can safely move on.
I mean, hey! the guy got egg on his face, here.  What do we expect him to do about that? Take a selfie, and post it on the front page? Nah, might be fun, but not gonna happen.

It was quite clear what you were implying, Walkie, but claiming that nobody is taking what I said seriously is just not true. If you think you can read people's minds, then read mine.

Oh, and by posting the last few messages, you just lost what little respect I had for you and your opinions.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 16, 2017, 01:56:48 AM
I see no atttempt on walkie's part to make some sort of emotionally-ruled competitive event take place. She has nothing to gain from doing so as far as I can see.

Nor I.

Odeon made some big claims that smeared me and stated them as dact based statements and when I argued the polar opposite, he said that "I" was being dishonest and engaging in history revisionism.

So I backed everything I said with other people's words including 2 of the 3 Admins.

Now it is on him to show he is not lies and hot air and back his big claims.

I can, he can't.  Who is credible?

Arguing with you is utterly pointless. Also, quoting people who weren't behind the decision to close down AFF amounts to a lot of hot air, nothing more. I have heard opposing opinions that I find credible, especially in light of your behaviour here, and so the difference between me and you now is that I don't quote my sources. Why should I? I already know what you are and won't allow what happened at AFF to happen here.

In other words, you can't back yourself and are a propagandist with no credibility. Don't worry.  I got it.

Look, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much. But for the record, the person I quoted the most was Gareth Even without his many quotes:
*  I put far more on the table to back myself than you could
* AND all sourced from this website
* AND by people from that forum
* AND from that time compared to..."I heard from a source..."

Blow it out your arse, you impotent, little slug
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 16, 2017, 02:05:29 AM
well, guys. i was implying that odeon might have a been a tad hasty and over-credulous, even that he might have been played by somebody.  I don't seriously expect him to say "Oops, yeah. That's a thought" . I think i got off pretty lightly, there.
As for the accusation that you vbrought down AFF, Al , looks like nobody else takes it seriously, doesn't it? I  do believe it's been pretty well laughed out of court by now, regardless of whether Odeon admits that  or not. Might be wrong, but  I think we can safely move on.
I mean, hey! the guy got egg on his face, here.  What do we expect him to do about that? Take a selfie, and post it on the front page? Nah, might be fun, but not gonna happen.

It was quite clear what you were implying, Walkie, but claiming that nobody is taking what I said seriously is just not true. If you think you can read people's minds, then read mine.

Oh, and by posting the last few messages, you just lost what little respect I had for you and your opinions.

Well, I think of I was in your position I would be weeping into my keyboard just like you are right now.

Out of interest what is the value the currency that is your credibility and favour these days? I understand it has really bottomed out?

Mine has too, let's be real. Your threats to treat someone like the great unwashed works so much better if you are not sitting in the muck yourself.

Made me laugh,  if that is a consolation....possibly isn't
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 16, 2017, 02:09:16 AM
A principle fundamental to science, and to scientists, is that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', and yes, if it is a third party making the claims against somebody, the onus is upon them to prove those claims true, not for the party the claims are made against to prove otherwise, so as to disallow a 'win by default', which in logic, is not a valid outcome.

For example, if you were to accuse me of being a paedophile (and I'm not for a minute suggesting you have or are), it would rest upon YOU to prove that *I* had abused the child, not my responsibility to prove that I did not. You would be the one who must present the evidence, and not I the one who had to refute all hypothetical possible sources of that which could potentially be seen as evidence by SOME party, by however slim a margin. The latter equates to a herculean task, and one both impossible and impractical, for it is not possible to prove a negative. One can of course prove a person IS something or DID something, but proving that same person ISN'T  that thing, or that they did NOT do a thing is quite different and logically impossible. And what is more, demanding the accused prove their innocence rather than demanding the accuser prove the guilt of the accused is neither fair nor reasonable. That gives way too much (false and undeserved) of a shadowy, nasty sort of pseudo-credibility to accusers at the expense of the party facing the accusation.

This is not science, though, it's simply stopping a bully.

You could always re-imagine disagreements as virtuous moral crusades, whereby you are a defender of virtue. I think that would be exceedingly healthy
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 16, 2017, 02:41:32 AM
I have heard opposing opinions that I find credible, especially in light of your behaviour here, and so the difference between me and you now is that I don't quote my sources. Why should I?

So in other words, a very low bar of evidence for you and a very high bar of evidence for everyone else.

Why does this remind me of every narcissist I've ever met.   :apondering:    :apondering:    :apondering:    :apondering:    :apondering:

:chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:

:apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:
:apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:  :apondering:

:chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:  :chin:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 16, 2017, 02:43:07 AM
I already know what you are and won't allow what happened at AFF to happen here.

Oh, not to mention the false threat narrative, narcissists love this one, they always play the victim when they are the bully.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 16, 2017, 02:46:32 AM
It was quite clear what you were implying, Walkie, but claiming that nobody is taking what I said seriously is just not true. If you think you can read people's minds, then read mine.

Coming from the guy who always claims to be a mind reader.   :hahaha:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 16, 2017, 02:48:34 AM
A principle fundamental to science, and to scientists, is that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', and yes, if it is a third party making the claims against somebody, the onus is upon them to prove those claims true, not for the party the claims are made against to prove otherwise, so as to disallow a 'win by default', which in logic, is not a valid outcome.

For example, if you were to accuse me of being a paedophile (and I'm not for a minute suggesting you have or are), it would rest upon YOU to prove that *I* had abused the child, not my responsibility to prove that I did not. You would be the one who must present the evidence, and not I the one who had to refute all hypothetical possible sources of that which could potentially be seen as evidence by SOME party, by however slim a margin. The latter equates to a herculean task, and one both impossible and impractical, for it is not possible to prove a negative. One can of course prove a person IS something or DID something, but proving that same person ISN'T  that thing, or that they did NOT do a thing is quite different and logically impossible. And what is more, demanding the accused prove their innocence rather than demanding the accuser prove the guilt of the accused is neither fair nor reasonable. That gives way too much (false and undeserved) of a shadowy, nasty sort of pseudo-credibility to accusers at the expense of the party facing the accusation.

This is not science, though, it's simply stopping a bully.

You have made empirical claims without sufficient evidence to back them up.

If the situation was reversed, you'd be eating this person for lunch by now.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Fun with matches on November 16, 2017, 07:36:17 AM
I wish everyone would stop targeting Odeon and leave him alone. He’s not an angel, but he isn’t constantly down peoples’ throats.

I really don’t get the moral stuff, one can justify morals by being as self-righteous as they like, I see a lot of that going on in here. A person with better morals can bully others into submission, using guilttrips, getting them to back themselves up...the end of the day, you can call anything right or better, and justified, but constantly nagging somebody into it is a form of bullying.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 16, 2017, 08:11:51 AM
I wish everyone would stop targeting Odeon and leave him alone. He’s not an angel, but he isn’t constantly down peoples’ throats.

I really don’t get the moral stuff, one can justify morals by being as self-righteous as they like, I see a lot of that going on in here. A person with better morals can bully others into submission, using guilttrips, getting them to back themselves up...the end of the day, you can call anything right or better, and justified, but constantly nagging somebody into it is a form of bullying.

Oh fuck that.

"Innocent bullied" Odeon has been trying to peddle this narrative whereby I am a big nasty bully trying to bring down his forum and hurt his family and therefore ANYTHING he says or does is a righteous stand against this evil menance. He is playing the virtuopus defender.

Then to give more credence to this dishonest narrative he has a brief hiatus (which everyone felt so badly for him for) and then comes back giving me ultimatums (which seems to be "I must back down and take whatever shit he throws at me") and finally to try to extend this point drums up propaganda that I was the cause of AFF going down.

I call this bullshit and he says I am using history revisionism and being dishonest. Fine I back my narrative almost perfectly to that of the people that were there at the time and from the words THEY used at the time to explain the situation INCLUDING two of the three Admins.

In return he backs nothing and I call him on that.

You say "Poor Odeon". Really? LOL
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Icequeen on November 16, 2017, 08:31:05 AM
I was never a member of AFF, so I don't know what happen there.

All I've been privy to is what I see here and saw at WP.

Bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch...bitch.

...and I do put some credence into what The Minister of silly walks says.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Almighty Kek on November 16, 2017, 11:19:57 AM
I wish everyone would stop targeting Odeon and leave him alone. He’s not an angel, but he isn’t constantly down peoples’ throats.

Look at the title of this thread.

Odeon slings mud at people, they sling it back and then at that point odeon keeps it going.

Like Ozy used to say, he's a member of the Pathetically Pathological Last Word Getter Inner's Club.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 12:50:46 PM
I see no atttempt on walkie's part to make some sort of emotionally-ruled competitive event take place. She has nothing to gain from doing so as far as I can see.

Nor I.

Odeon made some big claims that smeared me and stated them as dact based statements and when I argued the polar opposite, he said that "I" was being dishonest and engaging in history revisionism.

So I backed everything I said with other people's words including 2 of the 3 Admins.

Now it is on him to show he is not lies and hot air and back his big claims.

I can, he can't.  Who is credible?

Arguing with you is utterly pointless. Also, quoting people who weren't behind the decision to close down AFF amounts to a lot of hot air, nothing more. I have heard opposing opinions that I find credible, especially in light of your behaviour here, and so the difference between me and you now is that I don't quote my sources. Why should I? I already know what you are and won't allow what happened at AFF to happen here.

In other words, you can't back yourself and are a propagandist with no credibility. Don't worry.  I got it.

Look, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much. But for the record, the person I quoted the most was Gareth Even without his many quotes:
*  I put far more on the table to back myself than you could
* AND all sourced from this website
* AND by people from that forum
* AND from that time compared to..."I heard from a source..."

Blow it out your arse, you impotent, little slug

Wanker. Your walls of text do not equal evidence. The only person who actually knows is Amy. Everything else is speculation. Mine is credible, yours is little more than copying and pasting.

So fuck off, little man. You are a bully and your pattern here is more than enough evidence for me.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 16, 2017, 12:55:19 PM
I wish everyone would stop targeting Odeon and leave him alone. He’s not an angel, but he isn’t constantly down peoples’ throats.

I really don’t get the moral stuff, one can justify morals by being as self-righteous as they like, I see a lot of that going on in here. A person with better morals can bully others into submission, using guilttrips, getting them to back themselves up...the end of the day, you can call anything right or better, and justified, but constantly nagging somebody into it is a form of bullying.

Oh fuck that.

"Innocent bullied" Odeon has been trying to peddle this narrative whereby I am a big nasty bully trying to bring down his forum and hurt his family and therefore ANYTHING he says or does is a righteous stand against this evil menance. He is playing the virtuopus defender.

Then to give more credence to this dishonest narrative he has a brief hiatus (which everyone felt so badly for him for) and then comes back giving me ultimatums (which seems to be "I must back down and take whatever shit he throws at me") and finally to try to extend this point drums up propaganda that I was the cause of AFF going down.

I call this bullshit and he says I am using history revisionism and being dishonest. Fine I back my narrative almost perfectly to that of the people that were there at the time and from the words THEY used at the time to explain the situation INCLUDING two of the three Admins.

In return he backs nothing and I call him on that.

You say "Poor Odeon". Really? LOL

Pretty sure she didn't say that. You're as dishonest as always. Let's hear the bigotry next
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 16, 2017, 02:00:48 PM
I wish everyone would stop targeting Odeon and leave him alone. He’s not an angel, but he isn’t constantly down peoples’ throats.

I really don’t get the moral stuff, one can justify morals by being as self-righteous as they like, I see a lot of that going on in here. A person with better morals can bully others into submission, using guilttrips, getting them to back themselves up...the end of the day, you can call anything right or better, and justified, but constantly nagging somebody into it is a form of bullying.

Oh fuck that.

"Innocent bullied" Odeon has been trying to peddle this narrative whereby I am a big nasty bully trying to bring down his forum and hurt his family and therefore ANYTHING he says or does is a righteous stand against this evil menance. He is playing the virtuopus defender.

Then to give more credence to this dishonest narrative he has a brief hiatus (which everyone felt so badly for him for) and then comes back giving me ultimatums (which seems to be "I must back down and take whatever shit he throws at me") and finally to try to extend this point drums up propaganda that I was the cause of AFF going down.

I call this bullshit and he says I am using history revisionism and being dishonest. Fine I back my narrative almost perfectly to that of the people that were there at the time and from the words THEY used at the time to explain the situation INCLUDING two of the three Admins.

In return he backs nothing and I call him on that.

You say "Poor Odeon". Really? LOL

Pretty sure she didn't say that. You're as dishonest as always. Let's hear the bigotry next

No idea what "the bigotry" is that you are expecting/hoping for/fantasising about?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 16, 2017, 03:01:05 PM
I see no atttempt on walkie's part to make some sort of emotionally-ruled competitive event take place. She has nothing to gain from doing so as far as I can see.

Nor I.

Odeon made some big claims that smeared me and stated them as dact based statements and when I argued the polar opposite, he said that "I" was being dishonest and engaging in history revisionism.

So I backed everything I said with other people's words including 2 of the 3 Admins.

Now it is on him to show he is not lies and hot air and back his big claims.

I can, he can't.  Who is credible?

Arguing with you is utterly pointless. Also, quoting people who weren't behind the decision to close down AFF amounts to a lot of hot air, nothing more. I have heard opposing opinions that I find credible, especially in light of your behaviour here, and so the difference between me and you now is that I don't quote my sources. Why should I? I already know what you are and won't allow what happened at AFF to happen here.

In other words, you can't back yourself and are a propagandist with no credibility. Don't worry.  I got it.

Look, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much. But for the record, the person I quoted the most was Gareth Even without his many quotes:
*  I put far more on the table to back myself than you could
* AND all sourced from this website
* AND by people from that forum
* AND from that time compared to..."I heard from a source..."

Blow it out your arse, you impotent, little slug

Wanker. Your walls of text do not equal evidence. The only person who actually knows is Amy. Everything else is speculation. Mine is credible, yours is little more than copying and pasting.

So fuck off, little man. You are a bully and your pattern here is more than enough evidence for me.

You are a joke. You know that right. Who made big claims? YOU did. Out of nowhere. They concerned me and AFF. This little diatribe about evidence and speculation, was NOT your position when you made claims against me. Was it, slug?
You also called my narrative, history revisionism and dishonest. Yet you are unable to match or even give an attempt of backing yourself and faced with evidence that would be unable to be attained under most circumstances, you wave it off.  I would hate to be the victim of a crime with someone like you on the jury.

At what point did you consider focusing those standards on your own self. You made big claims and whilst I present really good evidence to support my narrative, you have nothing but speculation AND you call yourself credible.

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 01:18:20 AM
It's more than enough for me to see your behaviour here and compare it to what I've been told about your behaviour at AFF. It's what you are, Al, a bully. A pathetic little excuse of a man-child.

Now fuck off.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 17, 2017, 01:39:15 AM
It's more than enough for me to see your behaviour here and compare it to what I've been told about your behaviour at AFF. It's what you are, Al, a bully. A pathetic little excuse of a man-child.

Now fuck off.

It is one of your sillier opinions but kudos for your consistency of narrative. That is something new the slug may be in the process of metamorphise. Doubtful but I have optimism
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 17, 2017, 03:49:04 AM

It was quite clear what you were implying, Walkie, but claiming that nobody is taking what I said seriously is just not true. If you think you can read people's minds, then read mine.

I wasn't  reading minds, Odeon. I was  just judging  by what people have openly said  on this forum. The only person I can see who openly supports your narrative is hiding behind a new account, and not telling us who the heck he was on AFF.  Without a lot more info than that, I'm not willing to take his opinion seriously, especially not given that  it's defamatory.

I've agreed with you that Al's behaviour here is a form of bullying, and I do  I stand by what I said.  That said, I  regret making so strong a point of it when I did.  I regret that  because I didn't know that this bloody great can of worms was about to be re-opened did I? For my own part, I want Al to think twice about that behaviour. I don't want to beat him about the head with a great big stick until he feels totally justified in resuming said behaviour.  Especially not if that entails dredging up some really unsound and unjust asccusatons concerning what went on years ago on another board and citing a bunch of anonymous witnesses.

You're acting as if you've made up your mind to ban Al, and you're desperate to justify that action to yourself.  Might be wrong; you might be thoroughly dishonest , like some people say, but to my mind , I'm looking at a man acting under extreme pressure . And yeah, Al is  surely instumental in piling on the  pressure. There are no angels here. The relationship beween you and Al has turned toxic and is bring out the worst in you both.  Something needs to be done about that,  for everybody's sake.

Well, there's your justification, if you need one: something needs to be done. I've already said that I'd rather let Pyraxis take control ; if therte's a better way forward, she's more likely to find it isn't she? because it isn't personal to her. You turned down that suggestion.  Well, OK, you're the boss, but Al being banned by Odeon is still the worst-case-scenario for this board, IMO... short of whole board falling apart.

  Unlike some, I don't believe  you're actually lying, Odeon.  (except to yourse;f, maybe) . And  I bloody well wish that people would stop crying "Liar" at each other, because it's worse-than- pointless talking things over if nobody is willing to take it on trust that others are  doing their best to communicate honestly.  Aspies generally do try to communicate honestly (we're notorious for being excessively honest , FFS) ... except insofar as that might entail  spilling the beans on some deeply personal shit, ofc.

 Ofc, neither you nor Al is gonna spill, not in the middle of a fight  on the spazznet's most notorious forum, with your detractors taking detailed notes on all you say, to use in evidence against you.  That's just natural self-preservation.  Can't blame you in the least.  However,  I don't see it being resolved any other way than by getting under the skin.  I think  we've got  all sorts of personal shit that has nothing to do with this forum coming into this. In an ideal world, you'd both backl off, go into analysis, IRL, and come back with a more detached perspective.   But yeah, I know, I know,  that's not gonna happen either; that's just my own pleasant little daydream

Quote
Oh, and by posting the last few messages, you just lost what little respect I had for you and your opinions.

Well, i'm evidently not currying favour here, am I? I've been open enough about my POV to risk pissing everybody off. That said, I'm not m,ade of stone. It actually  does grieve me to lose your respect. It also grieved me to openly agree with Scap and Co, at this juncture.    Not so long back, Al was having a go at me , in his usual dogged fashion.  You backed me up. More than that, your responses were genuinely outraged and  flaming angry,  so it seemed to me.  I was  (and remain)  grateful for that.  I haven't forgotten, nor shall I, but I just don't do that "blind loyalty" thing, especially not when I do actually  sympathise with both sides.

I've said it before, but i'll say again: you and Al are both being inflammatory in your different fashions, both goading each other beyond endurance.  I don't want to be cheering for Team Odeon  and more than I want to be cheering fo Team Al,  because I really  do believe that only makes matters worse.

I'm bloody sad about the whole damned mess, truth to tell, but I don't believe that scapegoating solves it.

[EDIT. I actually wrote this yesteday, but didnt post it - called away from PC.  I now note that IQ also finds the "Al destroyed AFF" theory credible. But that doesn't alter my opinions]
 
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 17, 2017, 04:33:46 AM
Walkie just to be on the level with you, I do not think you are a terrible person or inherently bad. I DO think (and again you will see evidence of this) I think that you chose for whatever reason of yours to say some pretty fucking poor things mainly about Rockhound and me and they were dishonest. I think you chose to be dishonest and I think it was shit you made those choices. It was beneath you.

I think you got all of that.

But I do not think you are the sum of that interaction and I have seen enough in the past of you using logic and critical thinking around areas of dispute to be fair and balanced. I like fair. Not a fan of nice but I am a fan of fair. I do not even have to agree with a position as long as it is fair.

Believe me, I have no compunction in calling you out if I think that you are being dishonest but I do not think you are inherently dishonest or bad or unfair or whatever.

About July-August 2016 I was maybe not grieving Odeon's ill will BUT felt the "WTF??" of it too.

In truth, what I think is going on here is pretty close to what you see. I think Odeon is crestfallen and emotional. He does not feel that he has the control of the narrative and he is on edge looking for a way to remove me and thus the egg on his face. These are emotional decisions. But I will go further. I think that you are right in what you say about Odeon and I bringing the worst in each other. In many crucial ways Odeon and I are alike. I many critical ways we are different. Unfortunately, it is the crucial similarities which make our interactions toxic. Scrap cited Rockhound as describing for example that Odeon is a member of the "Last word in Getters Club". I am a long term member. We are both Grumpy old men. Neither of us like to be told what to say or do, and so on and so forth.

The thing that you probably realise as well as I, is that there HAS to be either an investment in moving past this or getting rid of one of us. Now I have been very clear that as long as Odeon keeps up the snark and insults, I will throw it back in his face BUT I have ALSO said, I will keep the war of words in this thread AND that when he tires of being a slimy impotent, toxic little slug, in this thread that there is no need for it to continue anywhere else.

I do not mind warring with him. It is no imposition. I prefer that to having to adapt and censor myself and consider how things I say could be misconstrued as not direct and blunt but perhaps rude and perhaps an insult and suddenly we are off to the races and it could be seen as my fault...

So the other alternative is Odeon gets rid of me and in all honesty I think you see what I see. Odeon is weighing up his options and trying to strengthen his narrative by methods foul or fair (being completely honest, this is what I saw you doing with Rockhound not so long back and I said the same then. Trying to justify bad ends to justify the means).

I could make it easy and throw a tantrum like DFG did and that would justify him. He is trying to pretend AFF and I2 situations are comparable to pre-emptively ban. Same with painting me as a bully. Never once is that flashlight shown back in his own face. He projects his real shortcomings on others.

What he ought to do in my view is simply be an adult. A Rational man. Not a victim or a saint or a morally virtuous defender of all things Al, but a guy who is equally as at fault for the two ways arguments as he has been part of. By engaging and seeking out and escalating conflict as much as his detractors he has contributed to things not being as good as they would otherwise be.
I have limited the bad blood and insulting and whatever to the one thread. What would happen if he stopped replying to it? Wouldn't THAT get interesting? Would THAT not be a better challenge for both of us? Would that not help the forum?

I have the feeling that Odeon, psychologically, cannot do this.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 02:32:14 PM
It's more than enough for me to see your behaviour here and compare it to what I've been told about your behaviour at AFF. It's what you are, Al, a bully. A pathetic little excuse of a man-child.

Now fuck off.

It is one of your sillier opinions but kudos for your consistency of narrative. That is something new the slug may be in the process of metamorphise. Doubtful but I have optimism

I didn't actually expect you to agree with me. Bullies tend to be like that.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 02:45:41 PM

It was quite clear what you were implying, Walkie, but claiming that nobody is taking what I said seriously is just not true. If you think you can read people's minds, then read mine.

I wasn't  reading minds, Odeon. I was  just judging  by what people have openly said  on this forum. The only person I can see who openly supports your narrative is hiding behind a new account, and not telling us who the heck he was on AFF.  Without a lot more info than that, I'm not willing to take his opinion seriously, especially not given that  it's defamatory.

I've agreed with you that Al's behaviour here is a form of bullying, and I do  I stand by what I said.  That said, I  regret making so strong a point of it when I did.  I regret that  because I didn't know that this bloody great can of worms was about to be re-opened did I? For my own part, I want Al to think twice about that behaviour. I don't want to beat him about the head with a great big stick until he feels totally justified in resuming said behaviour.  Especially not if that entails dredging up some really unsound and unjust asccusatons concerning what went on years ago on another board and citing a bunch of anonymous witnesses.

You're acting as if you've made up your mind to ban Al, and you're desperate to justify that action to yourself.  Might be wrong; you might be thoroughly dishonest , like some people say, but to my mind , I'm looking at a man acting under extreme pressure . And yeah, Al is  surely instumental in piling on the  pressure. There are no angels here. The relationship beween you and Al has turned toxic and is bring out the worst in you both.  Something needs to be done about that,  for everybody's sake.

Well, there's your justification, if you need one: something needs to be done. I've already said that I'd rather let Pyraxis take control ; if therte's a better way forward, she's more likely to find it isn't she? because it isn't personal to her. You turned down that suggestion.  Well, OK, you're the boss, but Al being banned by Odeon is still the worst-case-scenario for this board, IMO... short of whole board falling apart.

  Unlike some, I don't believe  you're actually lying, Odeon.  (except to yourse;f, maybe) . And  I bloody well wish that people would stop crying "Liar" at each other, because it's worse-than- pointless talking things over if nobody is willing to take it on trust that others are  doing their best to communicate honestly.  Aspies generally do try to communicate honestly (we're notorious for being excessively honest , FFS) ... except insofar as that might entail  spilling the beans on some deeply personal shit, ofc.

 Ofc, neither you nor Al is gonna spill, not in the middle of a fight  on the spazznet's most notorious forum, with your detractors taking detailed notes on all you say, to use in evidence against you.  That's just natural self-preservation.  Can't blame you in the least.  However,  I don't see it being resolved any other way than by getting under the skin.  I think  we've got  all sorts of personal shit that has nothing to do with this forum coming into this. In an ideal world, you'd both backl off, go into analysis, IRL, and come back with a more detached perspective.   But yeah, I know, I know,  that's not gonna happen either; that's just my own pleasant little daydream

Quote
Oh, and by posting the last few messages, you just lost what little respect I had for you and your opinions.

Well, i'm evidently not currying favour here, am I? I've been open enough about my POV to risk pissing everybody off. That said, I'm not m,ade of stone. It actually  does grieve me to lose your respect. It also grieved me to openly agree with Scap and Co, at this juncture.    Not so long back, Al was having a go at me , in his usual dogged fashion.  You backed me up. More than that, your responses were genuinely outraged and  flaming angry,  so it seemed to me.  I was  (and remain)  grateful for that.  I haven't forgotten, nor shall I, but I just don't do that "blind loyalty" thing, especially not when I do actually  sympathise with both sides.

I've said it before, but i'll say again: you and Al are both being inflammatory in your different fashions, both goading each other beyond endurance.  I don't want to be cheering for Team Odeon  and more than I want to be cheering fo Team Al,  because I really  do believe that only makes matters worse.

I'm bloody sad about the whole damned mess, truth to tell, but I don't believe that scapegoating solves it.

[EDIT. I actually wrote this yesteday, but didnt post it - called away from PC.  I now note that IQ also finds the "Al destroyed AFF" theory credible. But that doesn't alter my opinions]

Walkie,

If you're wondering why I'm pissed off at you then you should probably reread your last few posts directed at me. They all came off as condescending and belittling, and regardless of what you think about all this, honestly, is that how you address someone who thinks what all this amounts to is bullying?

If yes, then we have nothing whatsoever to say to each other.

If doubtful, then please have another think before hitting Post again.

My main reason for thinking that Al was instrumental in AFF's demise is all about watching his behaviour here and comparing it to multiple accounts of what he was like there. Unless you've run a forum for some years (no, simple participation does not count here) and know exactly what that is like, there is no way you will know, no way you CAN know. And curiously, it's also why Al can't know.

In other words, the fact that several people have independently suggested it to me is not why.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 17, 2017, 02:48:01 PM
We are both Grumpy old men. Neither of us like to be told what to say or do, and so on and so forth.

This is so very true. +
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 17, 2017, 07:56:39 PM
Can psychological speculation be condescending? Absolutely. But it's also a huge part of Walkie's personality and how she tries to connect with people. With the caveat that I can't speak for her, I doubt she means it in a condescending way. When she's condescending, it's much more likely to be barbed humor.  >:D
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Gopher Gary on November 17, 2017, 09:44:46 PM
Nice going, Walkie. Now they're both mad at you.  :zoinks:
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 18, 2017, 05:07:11 AM
Can psychological speculation be condescending? Absolutely. But it's also a huge part of Walkie's personality and how she tries to connect with people. With the caveat that I can't speak for her, I doubt she means it in a condescending way. When she's condescending, it's much more likely to be barbed humor.  >:D
Actually, Pk, I reckon you know me better than almost anyone by now, and I would pretty much trust you to speak on my behalf (just so long as you accept that I might have fun with the occasional caveat  >:D).   And , in short : thanks :)

As for "barbed humour", weeelll, do you know I condescend towards myself in the exact same fashion? Walkie can be a real dumbass sometimes, and somebody has to take her down a peg  or two, and make her see the funny side.   And you know what they say:  "If you want a job done properly, you just have do it yourself" . So really, we're all in the same boat with my condescending side, if that's what it is.   :LOL:
 
I'm in the process of composing a reply to Odeon, ATM. Taking my time, cos I'm letting my critical faculties and all my other faculties let  rip on it.   So... it will probably come out as another stupid mess won't it? Ho hum.  I am presently trying not to try too hard.  Might even suceed, knowing me (I'm nothing if not stubborn, as you know)
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 18, 2017, 05:10:52 AM
Nice going, Walkie. Now they're both mad at you.  :zoinks:

 :lol1:

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 18, 2017, 10:29:37 AM
Walkie just to be on the level with you, I do not think you are a terrible person or inherently bad. I DO think (and again you will see evidence of this) I think that you chose for whatever reason of yours to say some pretty fucking poor things mainly about Rockhound and me and they were dishonest. I think you chose to be dishonest and I think it was shit you made those choices. It was beneath you.
Al, I've plussed you for most of the content of this post, as I hope you noticed, But if you must keep harking back to that  thing with Ozy, I will add that if a man says I am "worse than Tombo" - then "paranoid" is the kindest complexion I can put on that . You have no idea what an insult that is, because you weren't on same forum at same time.  Maybe Ozy can fill you in? And if - as it happened-  the next thing that turns up is his astonishing rant about Elle on this board, then that impression is confirmed, in my mind.  Now, Ozy and I are(or rather were, I should say)  very old friends, and I like to think that  we can both get past all that.  No need to dwell on it, ad nauseam, or rub each others faces in it.   Well, maybe that's an empty wish on my side, but endlessly dredging it back up calling me "dishonest" on that count is both unfair and extremely unhelpful, IMO.  It's like picking at scabs. And it's not even your scab . What do you imagine my honest POV was? No, don't answer that. That's a rhetorical question. I really don't want to know. My POV is pretty flexible actually, and I'll be happy to dismiss the whole thing as a "flash in the pan" ...if allowed to do so.

[ PS  @ozy. by "getting past it" I simply mean that I should hope  that a modicum of trust and goodwill can be restored. not that I imagine us becoming firm friends again, just decent neighbours. I'm not asking for the earth ]
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Queen Victoria on November 18, 2017, 03:50:06 PM
Yeah, I know.  I didn't buy them all, but I got a Dr. Who and Daleks tshirt today.  I can only imagine what a fat 68 year old woman looks like wearing it.  Thank goodness I don't have any mirrors that show below my neck.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 18, 2017, 06:43:05 PM
Walkie just to be on the level with you, I do not think you are a terrible person or inherently bad. I DO think (and again you will see evidence of this) I think that you chose for whatever reason of yours to say some pretty fucking poor things mainly about Rockhound and me and they were dishonest. I think you chose to be dishonest and I think it was shit you made those choices. It was beneath you.
Al, I've plussed you for most of the content of this post, as I hope you noticed, But if you must keep harking back to that  thing with Ozy, I will add that if a man says I am "worse than Tombo" - then "paranoid" is the kindest complexion I can put on that . You have no idea what an insult that is, because you weren't on same forum at same time.  Maybe Ozy can fill you in? And if - as it happened-  the next thing that turns up is his astonishing rant about Elle on this board, then that impression is confirmed, in my mind.  Now, Ozy and I are(or rather were, I should say)  very old friends, and I like to think that  we can both get past all that.  No need to dwell on it, ad nauseam, or rub each others faces in it.   Well, maybe that's an empty wish on my side, but endlessly dredging it back up calling me "dishonest" on that count is both unfair and extremely unhelpful, IMO.  It's like picking at scabs. And it's not even your scab . What do you imagine my honest POV was? No, don't answer that. That's a rhetorical question. I really don't want to know. My POV is pretty flexible actually, and I'll be happy to dismiss the whole thing as a "flash in the pan" ...if allowed to do so.

[ PS  @ozy. by "getting past it" I simply mean that I should hope  that a modicum of trust and goodwill can be restored. not that I imagine us becoming firm friends again, just decent neighbours. I'm not asking for the earth ]

Actually, my point in doing so is rather different than what perhaps you expect. It was rather to say I am not anti-Walkie. Not at all. Let's be real too, I accused you of dishonesty against both Rockhound AND Me. But my point was not that you are an inherently horrible person or that you are officially unpersoned or anything so dramatic. It is simply that I thought some of your choices were bad not that YOU were very bad. Also that I WILL support you when I think you are saying good things and condemn you when I think you are saying bad things. I do not have a particular issue with you.

I do not agree with everything you say and but generally what I see from you seems fair, reasoned, and rational. I like these things regardless whether I agree with your conclusions. When I see you seemingly veer drastically from these things I do not have any problem in saying so.

It was not trying to relight old drama but I can be a touch unsubtle and a little blunt and direct........occasionally.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 18, 2017, 07:13:13 PM
Just a few clarifications:

I did send Odeon a PM regarding the uncanny similarities between what occurred at AFF vs what seems to be occurring at I^2. I am certain that I am not Odeon's only source.

Seeing as I^2 was used as a platform to launch the backlash against Amy and Gareth, no doubt they are loving the irony of seeing that very same presence that the resistance rallied behind now at the heart of the potential destruction of I^2. The support for Amy and Gareth during that time was considerable and it mainly centred around facebook and the AFF chat rooms.

I have seen Odeon being "cast" into the role of Amy. I don't know if this is some kind of bizarre, anal-retentive revenge fantasy, or if there is some other warped explanation. I do know that Odeon will need to be careful to avoid the same outcome. Amy tried to cut out a cancer from AFF and, in doing so, she unfortunately killed the patient. Lack of transparency and apparent lack of due process led to an impression that Amy was being unfair.

I know that there are a minimum of rules here at I^2. But it needs to be remembered that the forum does not serve the rules, the rules need to serve the forum. If Odeon needs to change the rules to take into account that there are personalities and behaviours that the original rules could not foresee, and which are destroying I^2 as a productive and enjoyable platform, then that may need to be on the table. Transparency and due process are important, a sudden perma-ban and a refusal to discuss other options may produce a negative backlash (as was the case with AFF). A series of warnings followed by a series of suspensions of increasing length and plenty of room for a troublesome member to mend their ways may be a better approach.

The reality is that a place like I^2 isn't going to change the world. But it once did provide an enjoyable and fun escape for a large number of members. I don't now about the rest of the residual membership, but being stalked around the forum, insulted and attacked at every opportunity, confronted by angry and hostile walls of text every day, is not fun for most people. Except for one member who lives for that shit, and has been doing it for many years.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 18, 2017, 08:12:43 PM
Let's break down this bullshit narrative from our Prodigal son:

Just a few clarifications:

Except "clarification" is perhaps not the best word to use. Maybe "spin" will serve better.

I did send Odeon a PM regarding the uncanny similarities between what occurred at AFF vs what seems to be occurring at I^2. I am certain that I am not Odeon's only source.

Who knows? Again, what I say is backed up and easily done so and is very transparent. As far as I know not much of what you say is backed up and not at all transparent. We do not even know if you were a member on there? There was no Minister of Silly Walks as far as I know? For all I know you are simply a person with a gripe against me?

Seeing as I^2 was used as a platform to launch the backlash against Amy and Gareth, no doubt they are loving the irony of seeing that very same presence that the resistance rallied behind now at the heart of the potential destruction of I^2. The support for Amy and Gareth during that time was considerable and it mainly centred around facebook and the AFF chat rooms.

Except it wasn't and you will not find evidence to display this. Evidence is easily found if you look. I looked for evidence to back my side of things and found it easily enough. You will not be able to do the same.

Again the fact that you do not know these crucial things tends to shed your side of things in very poor light.

In the first purge whereby Amy barged in and tried shaking things up and pissed off most of the forum. Max the Bear organised people in changing avatars and doing short boycotts and such. I did not, I went straight at Amy. I was not a party to it. How much of THAT was recorded or organised through I2? (There was condemnation after the fact and you will see that on here but that was not the claim you made is it?)

I will give you a hint. NONE.

Next, a number of years later after having been allowed back on as Bloke. Amy came back in and started picking on people and pushing people around and again I went at her and was banned. A number of people objected to her treatment and she closed the forum. Again there was no organising of this and it happened rather quickly. Amy banned a couple of people (I remember Bardwolf. She was acting a little strange but not nastily) and acting like a petty tyrant. But she made some really bullshit claims against me supposedly organising protests some years before, which was bullshit and I had a go at her about her lies (I did not organise a damn thing and did not take part in anything either).

So it went quickly from Amy being a sow banning a few of us and at  that point I made a snarky thread on here that got no attention until El President made a thread on AFF asking to bring me back and apparently it was very well received by fellow AFF members but not so Amy and she banned them. Again, no organisation there.

Perhaps though you could back up these lies. I am more than happy to eat humble pie if you proof any of these organisation efforts on I2. If you can't, I hope you will be adult enough to admit you are simply dishonest and stirring shit. That sounds fair doesn't it?

Deal?

I have seen Odeon being "cast" into the role of Amy. I don't know if this is some kind of bizarre, anal-retentive revenge fantasy, or if there is some other warped explanation. I do know that Odeon will need to be careful to avoid the same outcome. Amy tried to cut out a cancer from AFF and, in doing so, she unfortunately killed the patient. Lack of transparency and apparent lack of due process led to an impression that Amy was being unfair.

Amy was being unfair.

There was no cancer in the forum there was a robust membership who self-policed after she and Gareth left them to their own resources and without the ability to ban people. The membership was equally as supportive as it was activist and I was quite proud to be amoung its number.

Banning "the cancer" does not cause 40-50 active members to leave and only an absolute liar would suggest that. Even IF she was being unfair, the majority of the members would be happy enough to happy enough to accept such an "executive decision" to be rid of a cancer. So this does not pass the smell test on its own merits.

As far as Odeon being like Amy. I believe the ways I liken them was particularly easy to comprehend and does not require much in the way of speculation and much less the need for fantasising, unless you were an idiot.

I know that there are a minimum of rules here at I^2. But it needs to be remembered that the forum does not serve the rules, the rules need to serve the forum. If Odeon needs to change the rules to take into account that there are personalities and behaviours that the original rules could not foresee, and which are destroying I^2 as a productive and enjoyable platform, then that may need to be on the table. Transparency and due process are important, a sudden perma-ban and a refusal to discuss other options may produce a negative backlash (as was the case with AFF). A series of warnings followed by a series of suspensions of increasing length and plenty of room for a troublesome member to mend their ways may be a better approach.


Odeon can do whatever he likes on his own forum. As far as I know, it is exactly what he does do. HOWEVER, as with all things, there are always consequences to bad actions as there are to good actions.

The reality is that a place like I^2 isn't going to change the world. But it once did provide an enjoyable and fun escape for a large number of members. I don't now about the rest of the residual membership, but being stalked around the forum, insulted and attacked at every opportunity, confronted by angry and hostile walls of text every day, is not fun for most people. Except for one member who lives for that shit, and has been doing it for many years.

Hey it is not particularly fun for me being attacked either or having mod tools on me or being sinbinned or whatever but I am a big boy and I will live.

So this is interesting. You made some big claims which were not only untrue but some are demonstrably untrue. Furthermore, some claims you made cannot be proven. The fact that you get much of this so wrong has me suspect that you either are not who you claim to be (an ex-AFF member) or are purposefully lying. Why else would you get so much NOT misinterpreted but completely wrong?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 18, 2017, 09:04:45 PM
Back up my claims? No need. You are doing a fantastic job of backing up my claims be being as toxic and destructive a presence on this forum as you were on AFF.

For those who haven't spotted a pattern emerging, how many forums do you need to be at the centre of their demise before the penny drops that this is a pattern?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 18, 2017, 09:22:04 PM
Back up my claims? No need. You are doing a fantastic job of backing up my claims be being as toxic and destructive a presence on this forum as you were on AFF.

For those who haven't spotted a pattern emerging, how many forums do you need to be at the centre of their demise before the penny drops that this is a pattern?

I have not backed up a single claim of yours.

You made some clear claims which I quote in case you may see fit to delete them

Quote
Seeing as I^2 was used as a platform to launch the backlash against Amy and Gareth

Is this truth or is this a lie. If it is truth, as I have shown finding actual evidence of interactions about AFF on I2 is pretty easy. This is a big claim, are you standing behind it or are you impotently going to deflect?

Which forums was I the centre of a collapse with? Not AFF. The initial purge was not centred on my actions, though I absolutely was banned as were a number of others and there was around 50 people includuing those banned objecting to the treatment from Amy. In the second instance where she closed the forum, I was already banned and had no sway. People asked the questioned and asked for my return. I did not learn about this until the forum was shut down.

Now either you know this and are deliberately misrepresenting things or you do not know it and are making it all up as you are going along. But assuming you were a member, why would you NOT know? Assuming you must know IF you were a member, why are you lying?

Seems to be a pattern and it seems to be centred around you making bullshit allegations that you cannot back up. Why is that?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Pyraxis on November 18, 2017, 11:01:42 PM
I am certain that I am not Odeon's only source.

Why is that? Who do you think are the other sources?

Regardless,  :plus: for explaining your position.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 18, 2017, 11:04:49 PM
I am certain that I am not Odeon's only source.

Why is that? Who do you think are the other sources?

Regardless,  :plus: for explaining your position.

I have the feeling that Minister of Silly Walks is someone with a personal grudge against me and if I had to guess, I would be certain they are not a Prodigal "Son" at all.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 18, 2017, 11:26:23 PM
Well you've already cast Odeon as Amy. You can cast me as anyone you like. Whatever suits your persecution and revenge fantasy.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 18, 2017, 11:32:27 PM
I am certain that I am not Odeon's only source.

Why is that? Who do you think are the other sources?

Regardless,  :plus: for explaining your position.

Evidence of Al's toxic behaviour on AFF was lost with the forum. We are left with hearsay and current behaviour as evidence.

Odeon can verify whether or not there were other sources. Does it matter? By Al's own admission he was involved in a long running feud with Amy that led to the demise of AFF. Is history repeating or is Al just a sweet but unlucky fella who keeps running into forum admins who target him for no reason?
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Jack on November 18, 2017, 11:51:53 PM
Well you've already cast Odeon as Amy. You can cast me as anyone you like. Whatever suits your persecution and revenge fantasy.
Was beginning to think you're only here to stir things behind the scenes, and likely some revenge, so appreciate the explaining. If taking the explanation at face value, you seem to you care about this place, and mentioning how it was once a fun place for many people suggests you might have been one. Do you have a reason to care other than AFF? Not really asking for further explanation; only trying to get a perspective, so it's a simple yes or no question.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 19, 2017, 12:12:31 AM
Well you've already cast Odeon as Amy. You can cast me as anyone you like. Whatever suits your persecution and revenge fantasy.
Was beginning to think you're only here to stir things behind the scenes, and likely some revenge, so appreciate the explaining. If taking the explanation at face value, you seem to you care about this place, and mentioning how it was once a fun place for many people suggests you might have been one. Do you have a reason to care other than AFF? Not really asking for further explanation; only trying to get a perspective, so it's a simple yes or no question.

In case you haven't noticed, things are already stirred up. I2 doesn't need any help there. At this point there are 3 or 4 ways I can think of that things could go, and the one where I2 gets back to what it was and should be seems the least likely.

To be honest I've lurked here on and off for a while. I was pretty much waiting for the current situation to develop. It always seemed kind of inevitable.

And I don't care about I2. I do care about the people who found this an enjoyable place to hang out and no longer do. And if I2 does shut down it will leave a hole in some people's lives. So yeah, I do care. If Odeon don't like my advice he can tell me to get fucked. Apart from one PM it's all out in the open and will continue to be.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Jack on November 19, 2017, 12:32:47 AM
Things have been stirred up on I2 as long as I can recall. Have said multiple times over the years the site has thrived on it. This all really seems like nothing in comparison to most of the flare ups seen here. Though Hyke made a great point around here somewhere, saying the site has gotten small so the lack of non-stirred counterbalance means the membership is more affected by the stirring, or something like that. Though thanks for clarifying you don't care about I2, and you're just adding to the drama. Jack hopes you stick around.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 19, 2017, 12:34:41 AM
Well you've already cast Odeon as Amy. You can cast me as anyone you like. Whatever suits your persecution and revenge fantasy.
Was beginning to think you're only here to stir things behind the scenes, and likely some revenge, so appreciate the explaining. If taking the explanation at face value, you seem to you care about this place, and mentioning how it was once a fun place for many people suggests you might have been one. Do you have a reason to care other than AFF? Not really asking for further explanation; only trying to get a perspective, so it's a simple yes or no question.

In case you haven't noticed, things are already stirred up. I2 doesn't need any help there. At this point there are 3 or 4 ways I can think of that things could go, and the one where I2 gets back to what it was and should be seems the least likely.

To be honest I've lurked here on and off for a while. I was pretty much waiting for the current situation to develop. It always seemed kind of inevitable.

And I don't care about I2. I do care about the people who found this an enjoyable place to hang out and no longer do. And if I2 does shut down it will leave a hole in some people's lives. So yeah, I do care. If Odeon don't like my advice he can tell me to get fucked. Apart from one PM it's all out in the open and will continue to be.

But that won't do. That won't do at all.

Things have gotten to the stage whereby it appears that it is all over bar the shouting. I have agreed to not pursue this ill-will towards Odeon in any but this thread and that once this thread dies a death that should be the end of things unless Odeon starts in on me again.

Also the dishonest narrative of Odeon's was blown to bit from stuff I COULD evidence here and from others that were there INCLUDING two of the three Admins and in their own words and at the time. So that too had died down.

NOW you stir the pot with lies you cannot evidence and lies that are easily countered with evidence. The representations show you either are not in receipt of the knowledge of what went on and wish to smear me for reasons of your own OR that you do know the truth and deliberately lie to smear me for reasons of your own.

It is actually bad timing that does not back your claim.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 19, 2017, 04:06:32 AM
The fact of the matter is that Amy is most likely the only one who actually knows why AFF was closed down. Your so-called evidence is not worth anything.

I know you love hypotheticals, so let's do one.

If I had closed down I2 a couple of weeks ago and you had tried to swear innocence elsewhere, getting quotes from the other admins wouldn't have helped because they wouldn't have known what happened. When I thought about doing it, all I had posted about the matter was in two posts, none of which would have helped you.

You would have been the main reason for me to pull the plug, though, and I find it likely that something along those lines happened at AFF.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 19, 2017, 04:32:17 AM
The fact of the matter is that Amy is most likely the only one who actually knows why AFF was closed down. Your so-called evidence is not worth anything.

I know you love hypotheticals, so let's do one.

If I had closed down I2 a couple of weeks ago and you had tried to swear innocence elsewhere, getting quotes from the other admins wouldn't have helped because they wouldn't have known what happened. When I thought about doing it, all I had posted about the matter was in two posts, none of which would have helped you.

You would have been the main reason for me to pull the plug, though, and I find it likely that something along those lines happened at AFF.

Really? So being completely honest. Honest, not for me but to the forum members that you actually DO respect. At that point, you left making broad declarations of your family being unsafe and this justifying your need to defend yourself and your family.

I mean we were all here and we saw you do that and I have quoted it over and over because I thought it was completely unhinged and an attempt for you to not have any responsibility for yourself and your own actions.

So what WAS the radical new development that had you go all crazy and rainy-faced? Was it something I did? Was it someone joining your board that shook you up and made you feel so very unsafe? Was that me?

Are you being honest or are you AGAIN trying to push a narrative to shore up your justifications for bad action past or future? Just be honest to people here.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 19, 2017, 05:58:37 AM
Mischaracterising again, I see.

The fact of the matter remains that if I had closed down this place, you would have the main reason. You can't lie, misrepresent, or otherwise weasel your way out of it. You are a bully and you are toxic, to this place and most likely to others.

Interestingly that's also why I didn't, because there is no way I will allow a bully to win. And it's only because this is I2 that I didn't ban you. But do go on. Lie, misrepresent, embrace your toxic self. It's what you do.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 19, 2017, 06:25:58 AM
@ Minister of Silly Walks. Thanks for coming out a bit more , but you still haven’t told us what role you played on AFF, and what your ava there was called?

For my own part, although I  did sign up with AFF (under my usual handle) shortly after it's inception.  I rarely posted, and wasn’t there at all when the drama happened, so I’ve just had to pore over the relevant threads here to try to get a balanced picture,. I have to say that what I’ve read here  does tend to support Al’s narrative over  yours. But given that this was a complex situation, involving many different individuals  that played out over a considerable period of time, it’s also easy to see how reasonable people could  come out of that with opposing points-of-view .

I saw a lot of respect  for Gareth in evidence here and I share that respect .  It looks like Amy had some sort of  a breakdown, doesn't it?   In the light of that, I do wonder if it wouldn’t be kinder and more constructive if we stopped raking over the coals? I keep thinking to myself, how would I feel if I had a breakdown, got over it, but a bunch of angry people were still throwing rotten tomatoes at me on account of my irrational behaviour,   for what might amount to rest of my life, at this rate?  I’m thinking, if I were Amy,  I would need to  to keep well away from that angry mob , to protect my own mental health.

So I’m not sure we should having this discussion at all,  let alone posting this discussion in a place where anyone, even non-members can read the lot. That said, you’ve convinced some people that it’s relevant, and crucial to understanding what’s happening here.  But can we at least move the sodding thing?  Odeon? To somewhere slightly less exposed.

I notice that Gareth comported himself with enormous dignity, when he came on here.  caught as he was between the angry mob and (presumably) fragile wife.  He got a lot of respect for that.  But Gareth already had people’s respect. It’s not a simple mob v “Gareth and Amy”  thing

That someone as impressive  as Gareth can stand by Amy suggests to me , not that Gareth has ben duped by his  psychotic bitch of a wife, , as some have it,  but rather: there’s more to this than meets the eye, and we’ll never know the whole story, because the rest of the story  is deeply personal to Gareth and Amy, and none of our damned business.

I also note that Gareth seemed satisfied, after talking with al,  that Al was not to blame.  Here’s a thought: maybe no particular individual was to blame for that trainwreck?  Maybe the whole community played a part, with their righteous indignation pulling the board  in opposite directions until the whole thing just snapped like a christmas cracker, and the predictable bad joke and flimsy  party hat fell out of it.  And we’re still quarrelling over who gets to wear the hat.

That;’s the overall impression I got, for what my opinion is worth.  But I’ll say again, I was not involved in that one, I’m just going on hearsay, same as Odeon.  But at least most of  that hearsay was stated on this board for all to see,  by people who clearly disclosed their identity  on AFF .  You’ve still only come halfway towards that,  MoSW .  It matters. Unless we have some idea of your personal affinities and perspective (as in : how good a view did you have from wherever you were standing?) we have no way to judge the reliability of you testimony.  You seem  like an intelligent person. You can surely appreciate that?

Finally, your clincher is that you see uncanny parallells  between the situation here and the situation on AFF. Umm, Well , I see uncanny parallels between the situation here and the situation on  Aspegia / Aspergian Island. I really do, and it worries me. But If I leapt to conclusions based upon those parallels, then  those conclusions would completely contradict yours.

 One of us would have to be wrong.  So, that should sound a note of caution for both of us, shouldn’t it?

I think I’d better make a further post, spelling out exactly what I mean  by those parallels I see, because that statement in itself, is far to vague to carry any  weight. No  better than your first post on this matter, indeed.

If either one of us is onto something, then we surely have big problems on I^2 However, , at the end of the day, the best way to ensure that those problems destroy the board, is to promote suspicion, anger, scapegoating. If too many people leap to conclusions then react accordingly, then this board is as dead as all those other boards ,  nevermind who (if anyone)  started the rot.

So,  I will be more explicit regarding those parallells. I see more good than harm in it ATM,  But wait for it. I’m a slowcoach, and how to post about that without inadvertently adding to the toxic air of distrust around here? That’s quite an ask .

Also, I’m not sure that raking over the coals of any dead boards on a page that’s visible to all-and-sundry is a good idea at all.    I’ve surely nothing to hide, but real people got very badly hurt in  the Aspergia  debacle, and who knows  if  a totally public discussion might serve to fan the flames all over again?  or rub salt in old wounds for innocent parties.  So, again,  I’d rather post it somewhere a little bit less public. I’d rather post it in Elder’s , indeed, but I note that would serve to exclude at least one participant.  Yourself.  So I won’t go quite that far.

Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Minister of silly walks on November 19, 2017, 07:39:23 AM
Walkie, what role did I play in the closure of AFF? None. I was just an observer saddened by how events unfolded.

Sharing previous usernames. Is that a requirement here? Al seems to be doing just fine assigning defunct AFF usernames to current members on here, so perhaps he can give me one.

And I only need to observe current behaviour to see history repeating itself. No need to exhume the corpse of AFF. And, indeed, one of us is very likely wrong.

Gareth and Amy achieved far more for the recognition of neurodiversity than any of us can dream of. They have my utmost respect.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Icequeen on November 19, 2017, 10:20:31 AM
Al loves to bask in a spotlight.

I remember the same shit at WP back in 2010 before they hit him with the ban hammer, nominating himself for mod...etc, etc.

http://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=137733

Yeah, I know many of us have no great love for WP, but without it many of us would have never found our way here, so for that I'm grateful.

I hope the Minister sticks around for awhile. I missed the boat on AFF, it was gone almost before I knew it existed.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Fun with matches on November 19, 2017, 12:03:26 PM
Just to add my tuppence; When I met Gareth I thought he was totally cool and open-minded. I used to speak to Gareth on MSN Messenger. Then he introduced me to Amy and I thought she was a total bitch. I thought Gareth changed himself in order to fit into her ways. I didn’t like who he became.

At least on the AFF chatroom, I thought everybody there were all nutters, and I thought Autistic Pride Day was a load of self-absorbed pretentious bullshit, and I’m really glad it didn’t become a thing. My ex used to troll the chatroom cos he thought they were all nutjobs too, and they were easy to wind up. I didn’t like AFF and what they stood for. Militant bullshit. Never went onto the forum though. Maybe it was like WP and the chatroom had a completely different crowd to the forum.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Walkie on November 19, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
Walkie, what role did I play in the closure of AFF? None. I was just an observer saddened by how events unfolded.

Sharing previous usernames. Is that a requirement here? Al seems to be doing just fine assigning defunct AFF usernames to current members on here, so perhaps he can give me one.

And I only need to observe current behaviour to see history repeating itself. No need to exhume the corpse of AFF. And, indeed, one of us is very likely wrong.

Gareth and Amy achieved far more for the recognition of neurodiversity than any of us can dream of. They have my utmost respect.
I was asking what role you played in AFF, not in the " closure of AFF.". Small but significant difference.  Like, suppose you were a Mod there, then I'd think "Ah! you were privy to info that most people wouldn't be privy to" and your opinion would accrue a bit more weight for that.  At the other extereme, suppose you were not even a regular participant, but somebody who came and went erratically, then your opinion would lose weighrt because you might easily have missed some imprtant developments, given that the forum took so long to unravel.   Look at it this way: you're asking us to accept your opinion over a bunch of contradictory opinions that have  posted on this site already.  "just an observer" doesn't quite cut it. That suggests you're impartial, sure (though we only have your word for that)  but it doesn't suggest that you know the story any better than anybody else does. You clearly think you know better, but you really need to back that up, somehow.

Of course, sharing previous usernames is not a requirenent, not here, nor anywhere else, but when people comment on some past situation, like that, they generally disclose such  identifying info as a matter of course.  And somebody who resists sucvh disclosure is bound to come under suspicion.   People wonder: : is this somebody that would denounced as an asshole, if they only knew who it is? You don't have to disclose a damned thing, but you'd potentially improve your case immensely if you did.

I can't believe that I've been drawn into explaining  explaining this. It ought to be flaming obvious. But then i'm a spazz , ofc :autism: and too easily drawn *sigh*

"One of us is likely wrong"?  excuse the nitpicking , but i said "one of would be wrong" if we leapt to conclusions based on "uncanny similarities" .  Can't speak for for you, but I'm still a long way dfrom reaching any firm conlusions, based on my "uncanny similarities" , I just think they're much better than your uncanny similaries :P .  That said, i haven't presented them yet, so there;'s literally no competition there.  My real point was "Let's not jump  to conclusions, eh?"


Gareth and Amy achieved far more for the recognition of neurodiversity than any of us can dream of. They have my utmost respect.

Well I think I've already pretty much agreed with that statement. Although I think it puts the "rest of us" down , when you put it like that. Other people hacve made great achievements in that field.  And what Gareth and Amy achieved ibefore they directed their attention to other things, leaving a rudderless forum to look after itself (by all accounts)  isn't terribly relevant to what happened next,  or who was responsible for that.  Don't get me wrong , that's not to blame Gareth and Amy, but to say that it ceased to have much to do with Gareth and Amy or their past achievements. It wasn't a shrine to  G&A but a living, breathing, growing  community, that went on living and changing in their absence.  And given that Al was instrumental in holding that rudderless ship on course, it's not all that surprisding that he (and a whole bubch of others") clashed with Amy when she reappeared and "threw her weight around" . It was bloody delicate situation, by all accounts,; it didn't need a clash betweeen two such personalities ( I think I'll let others mentally fill in the adjectives). Al suddenl;y went from being the right man in the right place, to being the wrong man in wrong place (supposing that tact and diplomacy were required) along with whole a bunch of others. Maybe Amy failed to appreciate that she owned an internet forum, not the community that inhabited that place?  That's how it sounds,  from some accounts; and heck she's surely a human being being, not an infallible  goddess.

Ofc, Al could try the partience of a saint, as we know, but it doesn't follow that the whole debacle was all down to Al.  Neither does it follow that I^2's problems are all down to Al, though he surely plays his part in making this board uncomfortable. Let's try to be fair to the man...and not only because it's nice to be fair, but also because being unfair is bound to make matters worse.  Al has a very low tolerance for that sort of thing, you know? As do a lot of people, especially aspies.

Oh! Btw,  I haven't noticed  Al assigning defunct uisernames from AFF to people. Maybe he does, but I think you might actually be looking at this: a lot of us just carry the same old username from board to board, and then suddenly decide to change it, once everybody's sure that name is set in stone.  Sometimes the new name sticks, sometimes it doesn't. eg most of us still call Round Hound Ozy, just because he's been Ozy since before AFF  or I^2 even existed, he signed up here as Ozy,  so that's how we naturally  think of him . A whole bunch of people have changed their usernames, past 2-3 years  and some others change usernames more often than they change their underpants; so we've all become increasingly resistant to those changes.

But I digress: it's your name that's the issue here. If you want to leave you past ID behind and swan around vbeing somebody else, that's fine. BUt if your going to criticise people, based on  things that your current ava never experienced, then peopkle are going to demand to know who you are , and quite rightly. There are aloads of good reasons why it's bad form to do what you're doing. 

For instance: Al suspects you're some old I2 member with a grudge against him , doesn't he?  He's not just being paranoid.  A lot of us have same suspcions.  For example, I  (and one or two otheras)  thought you were probably a former member  called Zegh , initially.

Now Zegh is somebody I'd be really glad to see return to this board, but I hope to God he stays out of this argument, becauuse the feud between him and some other members here  was really explosive, and the latterday feud between Al and Odeon pretty much grew out of that.  So, much as I liked Zegh, if you turned iout to be Zegh  hiding under an "impartial" p[ersona. I would personally feel sick to my stomach , and so would others . That would just be so utterly wrong and contemptible.

I changed my mind about that idea that you're Zegh, you might be glad to learn.  That's just an example, to make it clear why people are going to care to know who you are , and not only on AFF, but here too, if you've ever had some other ID here.

I said that one of theis boards problems ATM, is an awful lot of distrust and suspicion setting  in.   Now you've swanned in and set a whole bunch of alarm bells ringing haven't you? Not good. You could presumably allay those suspicions, and contribute to the heath of this community,  just by telling us who you've been .  But you don't want to? Why the heck not?   



Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 19, 2017, 01:47:03 PM
Mischaracterising again, I see.

The fact of the matter remains that if I had closed down this place, you would have the main reason. You can't lie, misrepresent, or otherwise weasel your way out of it. You are a bully and you are toxic, to this place and most likely to others.

Interestingly that's also why I didn't, because there is no way I will allow a bully to win. And it's only because this is I2 that I didn't ban you. But do go on. Lie, misrepresent, embrace your toxic self. It's what you do.

Okay then what was all that BS then about needing to protect your family?

What threat have I EVER posed to your family?

Edit: But here is a really interesting point. Do you accept ANY portion of blame for the problems/issues/drama/tensions/toxicity in the forum or is it ALL mean old Al?

Do you think any of the insults said, the threats made, the mod tools used or dishonesty played ANY part? If so, what percent?

Curious? I mean when you run to " if you don't behave, I will pack up all toys and go home" (which threats, ultimatums and the like about the forum is) AND when you suggest that your family is in danger from words said by me on your forum - as a justification to strike back in any way to defend them from said threats, it looks to me that you accept 0% in things.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 19, 2017, 01:52:27 PM
Walkie, what role did I play in the closure of AFF? None. I was just an observer saddened by how events unfolded.

Sharing previous usernames. Is that a requirement here? Al seems to be doing just fine assigning defunct AFF usernames to current members on here, so perhaps he can give me one.

And I only need to observe current behaviour to see history repeating itself. No need to exhume the corpse of AFF. And, indeed, one of us is very likely wrong.

Gareth and Amy achieved far more for the recognition of neurodiversity than any of us can dream of. They have my utmost respect.

No it is not a requirement but you are painting a narrative and asking us all to take on trust a lot. We would not mind you countering with more than hearsay because I have done that much and what I have shown from others including Gareth and Pikajedi backs to a large extent what I have said.

You on the other hand, come across as some perhaps with some knowledge of the forum and with an axe to grind, who picked their moment to when things looked like they were contained and even the AFF BS was winding down, to reignite things with what amounts to salacious gossip.

You are making a lot of big claims. I did the same but I backed mine with evidence. You are not even offering your username. You do not need to naturally but you come off worse for the result.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 19, 2017, 01:56:41 PM
Just to add my tuppence; When I met Gareth I thought he was totally cool and open-minded. I used to speak to Gareth on MSN Messenger. Then he introduced me to Amy and I thought she was a total bitch. I thought Gareth changed himself in order to fit into her ways. I didn’t like who he became.

At least on the AFF chatroom, I thought everybody there were all nutters, and I thought Autistic Pride Day was a load of self-absorbed pretentious bullshit, and I’m really glad it didn’t become a thing. My ex used to troll the chatroom cos he thought they were all nutjobs too, and they were easy to wind up. I didn’t like AFF and what they stood for. Militant bullshit. Never went onto the forum though. Maybe it was like WP and the chatroom had a completely different crowd to the forum.

She was a bitch. I had some issues with Gareth too, not major ones. He was okay. There was a lot of vindictiveness and spite with Amy that just was not part of Gareth's character. The Chatroom was Amy's domain. It was moderated by her and friends of her's that were almost her equal. Poisonous nasty people. I found the same in WP chat from years ago. Having said that the membership on both was really nice.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Genesis on November 19, 2017, 03:48:43 PM
Just to add my tuppence; When I met Gareth I thought he was totally cool and open-minded. I used to speak to Gareth on MSN Messenger. Then he introduced me to Amy and I thought she was a total bitch. I thought Gareth changed himself in order to fit into her ways. I didn’t like who he became.

At least on the AFF chatroom, I thought everybody there were all nutters, and I thought Autistic Pride Day was a load of self-absorbed pretentious bullshit, and I’m really glad it didn’t become a thing. My ex used to troll the chatroom cos he thought they were all nutjobs too, and they were easy to wind up. I didn’t like AFF and what they stood for. Militant bullshit. Never went onto the forum though. Maybe it was like WP and the chatroom had a completely different crowd to the forum.

The chatroom had it's regulars, where the forum had theres... I tried using the chat a few times, yet all it ever did for me was just see a whole new environment
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 20, 2017, 12:42:43 PM
Blah blabber blab blah blabber...

Not interested. Go away.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 21, 2017, 02:44:29 PM
Blah blabber blab blah blabber...

Not interested. Go away.

Don't like - don't read.
Words will hurt you less and you will be less inclined to run away from the site or use mod tools desperately.
Sticks and stones.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Lestat on November 21, 2017, 05:23:55 PM
Odeon, to respond to what you said about 'this isn't about science...'

And your having said 'This is not science, though, it's simply stopping a bully'

What I SAID, was that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary levels of proof'. Doesn't have to be applied in the sense of scientific investigation, but the PRINCIPLE is exactly the same. Its axiomatic, and general. I simply pointed out that I was familiar with the concept, through of course, unsurprisingly, the scientific principles I follow, the principle itself? that can be taken out of the context of science and transplanted neatly into this shit-flinging cretinfest of yours.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence if they are to be backed up convincingly. For something of that nature, the bar is set high. And you, odeon cannot seem to live by that. You set the bar high for everybody else (unless they agree with you of course in which case you wallow in sycophancy like a pig wallowing in its own shit; and come off smelling no better) But for everybody else, you expect them to prove their points to a standard much more demanding than you set for yourself.

So no, thats fucking dogshit odeon. Extraordinary claims DO require extraordinary evidence. Demanding claims require thought out, properly constructed proof if they are to be believable.

Its time for you to step up and act like a man, and to hold yourself to the same standards as you demand from others. Whats sauce for the goose, as they say..

As for AFF..too militant? bollocks it was. It wasn't militant ENOUGH. We did have some good activists, like aliengirl...but we needed more like her. Wish kassiane had been there; because THERE is a lady who knows how to give the deserving a proper chewing the fuck up and shitting them out in a screaming skinless partly digested heap of curebie turd World needs more people like kassi and aliengirl. And then there was Ana54, her writing  was great. I'd have loved to see some of that put into action.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 22, 2017, 02:25:01 AM
Odeon, to respond to what you said about 'this isn't about science...'

And your having said 'This is not science, though, it's simply stopping a bully'

What I SAID, was that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary levels of proof'. Doesn't have to be applied in the sense of scientific investigation, but the PRINCIPLE is exactly the same. Its axiomatic, and general. I simply pointed out that I was familiar with the concept, through of course, unsurprisingly, the scientific principles I follow, the principle itself? that can be taken out of the context of science and transplanted neatly into this shit-flinging cretinfest of yours.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence if they are to be backed up convincingly. For something of that nature, the bar is set high. And you, odeon cannot seem to live by that. You set the bar high for everybody else (unless they agree with you of course in which case you wallow in sycophancy like a pig wallowing in its own shit; and come off smelling no better) But for everybody else, you expect them to prove their points to a standard much more demanding than you set for yourself.

So no, thats fucking dogshit odeon. Extraordinary claims DO require extraordinary evidence. Demanding claims require thought out, properly constructed proof if they are to be believable.

Its time for you to step up and act like a man, and to hold yourself to the same standards as you demand from others. Whats sauce for the goose, as they say..

As for AFF..too militant? bollocks it was. It wasn't militant ENOUGH. We did have some good activists, like aliengirl...but we needed more like her. Wish kassiane had been there; because THERE is a lady who knows how to give the deserving a proper chewing the fuck up and shitting them out in a screaming skinless partly digested heap of curebie turd World needs more people like kassi and aliengirl. And then there was Ana54, her writing  was great. I'd have loved to see some of that put into action.

Well said.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 22, 2017, 01:11:37 PM
Odeon, to respond to what you said about 'this isn't about science...'

And your having said 'This is not science, though, it's simply stopping a bully'

What I SAID, was that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary levels of proof'. Doesn't have to be applied in the sense of scientific investigation, but the PRINCIPLE is exactly the same. Its axiomatic, and general. I simply pointed out that I was familiar with the concept, through of course, unsurprisingly, the scientific principles I follow, the principle itself? that can be taken out of the context of science and transplanted neatly into this shit-flinging cretinfest of yours.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence if they are to be backed up convincingly. For something of that nature, the bar is set high. And you, odeon cannot seem to live by that. You set the bar high for everybody else (unless they agree with you of course in which case you wallow in sycophancy like a pig wallowing in its own shit; and come off smelling no better) But for everybody else, you expect them to prove their points to a standard much more demanding than you set for yourself.

So no, thats fucking dogshit odeon. Extraordinary claims DO require extraordinary evidence. Demanding claims require thought out, properly constructed proof if they are to be believable.

Its time for you to step up and act like a man, and to hold yourself to the same standards as you demand from others. Whats sauce for the goose, as they say..

As for AFF..too militant? bollocks it was. It wasn't militant ENOUGH. We did have some good activists, like aliengirl...but we needed more like her. Wish kassiane had been there; because THERE is a lady who knows how to give the deserving a proper chewing the fuck up and shitting them out in a screaming skinless partly digested heap of curebie turd World needs more people like kassi and aliengirl. And then there was Ana54, her writing  was great. I'd have loved to see some of that put into action.

Have a look at Al's post the last two or three years, Lestat. This *is* about stopping a bully and honestly, I care very little about what you think about this.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 22, 2017, 01:12:29 PM
Blah blabber bluh blah...

I'm sure it was very interesting.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: Al Swearengen on November 22, 2017, 03:11:27 PM
Blah blabber bluh blah...

I'm sure it was very interesting.

It was and he is right, you do not apply the standards you apply to others and want the impunity to mix it up with the members but have tools to win the arguments in the Admin panel. Redefine all you want but Lestat has you figured.
Title: Re: I really can't believe you all bought it!
Post by: odeon on November 22, 2017, 04:47:57 PM
Blah blubber blah...

Again?