INTENSITY²
Arena for the Competitive => Main Event Callouts => Topic started by: sg1008 on May 19, 2015, 04:12:37 AM
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I hate call-outs, but my recent violent physical reaction to what Jack accused me of seems to warrant it.
It's not assumptions when SG has made it clear before that he prefers a black community free of the intrusion of whites.
I literally think I would have jumped you Jack if you said that to my face. And if thats not a sign there needs to be a call-out, I dunno what is. I cannot even finish reading what you wrote because my blood pressure spikes and I can feel my heart start to race. I saw it was something about segregation.
The idea nauseates me. I felt like I was going to have a heart attack. To imagine being away from my family...to see that out of anything I said, that THAT would be the conclusion anyone could make...that was more shock than I have ever experienced.
Terrible thing for you to say.
I have been quite angry in the past about racism, about inequalities, about the state of the world, about injustices, about tragedies. I have made some statements that look like generalisations and when called out I have reflected on things people say, on their reactions, I have tried to clarify how I feel, changed the way I express certain sentiments, tried to adjust, be more respectful. At the same time, I have grown in understanding what is blind anger, and what is righteous anger. I have grown to understand that sometimes people will be offended but I cannot help if someone does not want to see the truth of a situation.
I am not here to prove or disprove societal injustices. thats not what this call-out is for.
This call-out is personal.
NEVER EVER have I said nor implied certain things which Jack accuses me of. Things which I take personally. The first time that really bothered me, Jack, you said I hate rich people. That is entirely inaccurate. First of all, I rarely ever use the word hate, and do not have that sentiment for anyone. True, I am uncomfortable around rich people for two reasons 1) wealth is very unequal and whenever I see excessive wealth, I have to remember excessive poverty; and 2) I am a constant suspect around very wealthy people for my race, my mannerisms, and my economic status. Those things make me uncomfortable, and mindful of various inequalities.
But I don't hate rich people.
You said I hate them. I never said that, I never would say that, and that is not how I feel/felt. I thought I could let it go.
but this time?
Now you accuse me of wanting to live in a neighborhood away from "intrusive" white people. Makes me nauseous just typing this. What gave you that idea? And to say I make it "clear"? What gave you that RIGHT? I never EVER implied, wished, wondered, stated, whispered, suggested, or even THOUGHT such a thing.
Do you think I would rip apart the world? That I think white people are so intrusive?? That is insane! The only reason I identify as black, is because that is how society defines me. One drop rule, right? Otherwise, I am just as much white as I am black, and there is no fucking way I would see my family torn apart. No way I would let ANYONE touch my mother or suggest she is an intrusion.
I guess I had a very vivid visual when you said that...that depiction of my life and family was too much. Too far. I would have destroyed the source of that visual if I had the chance...or if i was 50 years older and bit less healthy, I would have died of cardiac arrest. You can't just make up stuff about what people say or feel Jack. And I know you knew I was mixed, so I don't get what made you think I would ever wish that. I don't know if you were purposefully pushing my buttons, or if you were just delusional about how you thought I felt.
Either way it was a wrong thing to say, a worse thing to state, and a peculiar thing to say I made "clear".
Please refrain from making those kinds of statements. If you want to quote me, fine. If you want to challenge me, fine. If you want to call me out on a generalisation, fine. But don't make up stuff and then post it as if it is fact, as if it is how I feel. Your words can physically effect people. I know this. I use my words and they make people upset or happy, I've seen it.
Words can cut like a knife...like a lethal dose of whatever causes heart attacks. Don't say things like that that are not true. I am sorry you come up with those ideas...I am sorry what I say makes you think that I feel that way. regardless, why go and state it as a fact? Why state things about other peoples personal feelings and experiences when you cannot possibly have the authority to do such a thing?
You can say "when you say XYZ it makes me feel you think this and that". You can ask, "well would you prefer this an that?", or "I feel like you are implying this and that, is that true?"
But DO NOT STATE THINGS AS FACT ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S FEELINGS THAT YOU JUST MAKE UP.
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Bumping this so it is visible.
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You made the point before about the word hate, and so did I. You don't hate them; you dislike them in general. It's a semantic argument where you think the word means something worse than I do, so not sure how to respond further about that. What do you want me to say? I don't hate poor black people; I generally dislike them? Think it's sweet you are sensitive about the word hate. As to the point of this thread: SG made it clear. Know what that sentence really needed? (To me.) Yes you made it very clear to me both in your rant about having to contend with white people on the bus, and also in the gentrification thread that you would rather not have whites in your community.
Am glad this thread is here today, because thought about you all day. Yes, have been pushing your buttons SG, trying to understand why your negativity towards whites is ground so deep. Once even said wanted to see your baggage, but today realized you've been showing it to me all along.
Wolfie and SG tell things from their lives that show a social injustice.
Hyke said this today. But that's the thing I've been trying to get to give me to understand , a social injustice form your life, and you simply haven't. Could probably sit around with Wolfish all day and share tangible scars. You more speak in terms of: black people this, and white people that, and society this and that. While I've been trying to get you to say: this is what happened to me. I wanted to know what they did to you on the bus. When you said you have to convince yourself that you're as good as white people, I wanted to understand what did that to you. Then after yesterday's exchange, realized the baggage you've been sharing all along is all internal.
One thing I heard recently...is that we can face discrimination all our lives, as long as we don't internalise it, we win. And that there is in this country a thing as "black space" and "white space". Black space is the ghetto, and black people carry the ghetto with them on their skin...so when we enter a white space (which is about everywhere else) it causes conflict. Everywhere there is a black person in a white space people do the math "how did they overcome the ghetto to get there? or are they homeless? or are they a thief from the ghetto".... Hard not to internalise that....every time I visit a university or suburb, or store, I actively try to not look suspicious...I end up spending money places just because I don't want them to think I am homeless.
These words are so upsetting to me. This painted a picture for me of someone, whenever in the presence of whites, having this messed up internal thought process insisting the whites are judging and criticizing, for daring to be in their space. Imagining and daydreaming all the bad thoughts, regardless if they exist or not. Sg, I know I'm a piece of shit because white people have told me so, but now I'm beginning to think you know you're a piece of shit because black people tell you so. So, for that reason, I'm going to tread very lightly, because I don't know who I'm referring to, but I'm still going to say it.
Black space is the ghetto, and black people carry the ghetto with them on their skin...
That's some disgusting deep seeded self-loathing shit right there. You don't deserve to be handed that.
I apologize for offending you, SG, but I'm not going to take it back. It doesn't mean I'm correct. It means you've made it clear to me.
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I have not made it clear to you or anyone. if anything I am making it clear that I do not feel that way. Stating that I am saying something which I never said nor felt nor meant, and stating it as fact, and stating that somehow semantically you understand the hidden meaning behind my words better than I do, and that I cannot clarify things for myself or be allowed to defend what I am meaning, and then stating that your own POV is a FACT about my own POV...then that just makes you a special kind of liar.
Do not speak for me. You can quote me, but do not make things up. Is that too much for you to grasp? I thought you were smart. You should be able to figure out when you are quoting someone, and when you just making stuff up.
I would give you props if you took the socratic approach and quoted me and asked me "therefore...?" or rephrased what I said to get a clearer picture. Other people do that and it is fine.
And just as nice example: I don't even dislike rich people. THAT is not even accurate. I dislike entitled rich people. I dislike entitled "able" people. I dislike entitle-ism in a world full of inequalities. Is that clear?
You just make stuff up Jack!! I don't get it!! Why don't you be pissed at something I ACTUALLY said, not stuff you dream I said!??
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I am not asking for an apology. I am asking why you lie? I am asking you to discontinue this lying practice. This putting words into peoples mouths. I am asking you to stop doing something which is wrong and hurtful. You have that choice. You can or you can't. I expect that you would...out of a sense of respect. I expect that you would care not to be a liar. But if I am wrong. Okay. No need to keep discussing it.
You can be a liar...it will hurt people...it will hurt me...and if you are okay with that then I guess I will have the choice to make whether to forgive you or curse you.
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Am not a liar when I say your own words have lead me to believe you would prefer not to have whites in your community. Yes it seemed quite clear; not making it up. On the point of semantics, hatred by definition is an intense and passionate dislike. Maybe you're just an intense and passionate person so your dislike comes across as very intense and passionate dislike. Never said you have no right to clarify or defend, and if you say I'm incorrect in how I've interpreted the things said, then I accept that as true. Not sure why you thought I was pissed.
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if you say I'm incorrect in how I've interpreted the things said, then I accept that as true.
That's good enough for me. I happen to love my family and friends very much. Before you make assertions about how I feel about anyone, I would appreciate if you took the time to clarify it. If I haven't said it, if you can't quote me saying it, I have NOT said it, and there is no reason to assume that I would ever say, feel, or agree with it.
I will point out injustices. I will be pissed at entitlement. I will passionately dislike inequalities. But when it comes to persons- to human beings- I never hate, and I never wish to be separated from a person based on something stupid like their income or color of their skin. Now you know, and now you know forever. Unless at the some future point I STATE, in quotable words, that I change my mind.
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That's good enough for me.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130910011414/mlp/images/2/23/Grumpy_cat_'good'.jpg?hc_location=ufi)
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SG, like you a lot and was impressed you made this thread, and you were so angry I wanted to let you have that. Really thought I was going to be able to let this one slide because I know I upset and it wasn't my intention, but I don't think I'm going to be able to get let go of the number of times you call me a liar in this thread. I fully admit I purposely provoke you to try to understand you, though that particular statement wasn't intended to be a provocation; it was an honest assessment of things you've written. I didn't drag in quotes because I didn't think you'd be able to acknowledge that maybe you could understand why I came to the conclusion I did, but would instead re-word and explain them away.
But when it comes to persons- to human beings- I never hate,
Instead when I look at belligerent ignorant fools who are rich privileged and white, I feel a special kind of disgust, the same disgust I have for the slaver owner's rich belligerent child, who had no idea - nor care- of the injustice of the entire scenario....of us having move to the side everytime they come home to throw a party.
Not an ordinary disgust, as special kind of disgust. A special kind of disgust sounds a lot like an intense and passionate dislike. You may not use the word hate, but still very effectively communicate hatred. Is it at all possible to see that? Am I really putting words in your mouth and making it up?
I never wish to be separated from a person based on something stupid like their income or color of their skin.
Its happening a lot more now because more wealthier people are being attracted to the area, not just for temporary events, but more are moving in...new housing, high rents...completely changing demographics.
Yeah...it seemed like a good thing here too...the parks got done up and the neighborhood kids had safer places to play....but now people are disappearing, rents are going up, and the demographic is changing....for instance there are way less black people in a neighborhood that was all black. My brother said its becoming really bad in Boston too...many low income people being displaced.
I realize you made this thread and these statements out awareness of the impact on poor people, but there's a serious undertone of other things being said at the same time. Certainly you've heard the other version this. Its happening a lot more now because more black people are being attracted to the area, not just for temporary events, but more are moving in. Now people are disappearing, property values are going down, and the demographic is changing. For instance there are way less white people in a neighborhood that was all white. Heard it's becoming really bad in other places too. That sounds familiar, correct? Does that read to you like someone who would prefer to not have blacks intruding in their community? Is it at all possible to see that? Am I really a liar who isn't smart enough to realize when I just making things up? Is it correct you never EVER implied, wished, wondered, stated, whispered, suggested, or even THOUGHT such a thing?
Please don't re-write, re-phrase, or re-explain it. You say I misinterpreted you, and I will accept that as truth. I apologize for obviously offending you so personally, but you've also been offensive in calling me a liar not sure how many times, and implying I'm stupid. You write some very negatively generalizing and racially charged statements. If I'm willing to take accountability in acknowledging I might be reading you wrong, then I think it's only right you also take some accountability for your choice of wording.
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Well I have been thinking on this, why you so adamantly reject anytime I bring up racism built into our society.
I will make a comparison with being transgender. Unless you are trans, or know someone who is trans, or decide for some reason to study and investigate being transgender, you are not going to be mindful of discrimination and oppression every day. You are not going to be hypersensitive to it- in fact you do not even need to think about it. You can forget about it...you can live your entire life without having to confront, acknowledge or recognise it.
But if you are transgender the story is different. Its in your face every day with almost every interaction. It affects every aspect of your life from friendships, to education, to employment, to using the bathroom. You see laws pass and really, it doesn't affect much in your daily life...so there is not too much recourse in politics. You struggle with even advocacy- not all LGBT activism represents every trans experience. In fact not all trans people even represent others very well. theres a whole world of self-discovery and self-confidence that has to grow out of vigorously punching back against all the layers of oppression stacked upon you. There are tipping points as well...and what may seem like non-events to some people are HUGE DEALS to someone who is trans.
If I bring up something about being trans and get put down, I am not surprised. Lost out on the suggestion I made about having an "other" option here. For some reason I was immediately compared to someone who I have never met, an apparently overly aggressive person who accused people here of cis discrimination. So it was too inconvenient for a few people here to fathom an other option, and for them the whole idea was scrapped? I dunno what happened.
The thing is, whenever a minority speaks up, there will be a majority to push back or challenge. That is a given. But majority does not mean it is what is right. A majority is just a majority.
I have seen ladies here get put down for bringing up feminism...when, even if not apparent, there is a huge systematic issue that does not value women nearly as much as men, and takes the talents and needs many do have for granted. I never understood this very well until this last year actually. Yes there are inconveniences for typical males as well, but the subtle ingrained devaluation of women and their experiences is so profound it deserves to be examined.
I have learned thus, unless the topic is autie discrimination, I cannot discuss many other forms of oppression here. Everybody has an opinion, but oppression is real. And if people cannot, or will not appreciate that, it is not my responsibility to make them. But I think it is a shame that one has to censor ones own experiences for fear of having your words twisted or being accused of meaning things bizarrely unrelated. If someone has something to say about how they are treated, or how they are valued, they should be able to vent among friends without having to pull out articles and stats to back up their life experience.
With regards to race, I bring it up because I think people value that discussion here very much. I know it needs to be had and I wanted to be a part of that conversation. And sometimes I just plain need to rant. It is overwhelming sometimes...as a visibly black person, the same with being trans, with it being in your face everyday- that is how it is being black. It affects every level...if affects jobs, education, going into a store, walking down the street.
So I have learned, I cannot come here and rant when that becomes too much. I cannot be upset about that, because somehow my anger is offensive. My frustration with that is offensive to others who do not see things as a big deal, or who cannot appreciate that it is REAL for some people. Fine...but I also know many more here listen...or discuss, or care to understand and offer their own perspectives for mutual growth.
Like many people, I could sweep these things under the rug. I could bury it within my subconscious...people are good at that. it is convenient. I did that with being trans. Did that with being black. Did that with a lot of things. Spent a great deal of energy doing that. But after coming out about being trans and autie, I have found I can't let that stuff sit. When people let it sit, it comes out in violence. You don't think about it, and then it all comes up at once and all you can do is tantrum. For your own survival, things have to be looked at...oppression is traumatising. So you have to deal with it. it seemed like dealing with it with friends was ideal.
Oppression is THAT real, and THAT urgent. It kills. It tears people up inside. it brings on mental illness. it destroys families and happiness. It hurts hurts hurts. And it cannot be addressed unless it is looked at...and its not going to be looked at unless someone experiencing that oppression is allowed to vent. Maybe the anger will seem very generalised sometimes, but feedback helps with focusing things. Feedback- not accusations, not lies, not misinterpretations taken as fact. That just adds frustration.
You say you try to provoke me to understand me? Well geez, why can't you just ASK? That seems a lot nicer to ask. If you provoke someone they are going to get angry, and you are not going to get nearly as a concise, representative and well thought out response as you would if you asked. Provocation is not a good way to understand anything beyond what buttons you can push. It doesn't tell you anything about WHY those buttons can be pushed, or what about them being pushed that causes frustration, or even if it was the buttons you were pushing or some other subtle fact such as the observation in the other person that you are trying to provoke them.
I am not a lab rat. I am a human being and you can communicate with me directly.
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You didn't allow me to veer off topic, so I'm not going to allow you to do it either. You stamped your feet and shouted stupid liar. You never even remotely insinuated the message I received. If I can't quote it you didn't say it. Liar liar lies. Though you did say it, and I think it's very easy to see how I came to the conclusion I did. I'm asking you address that. You may not intend so send the message you send, but I've received the message of hate. The things you say generalize and demonize all of whites as a whole as being the bottom line true ill of society. You may not say the word hate, or blatantly say all whites are the bad people and the only bad people, but do certainly send that clear message. I don't reject racism is built into society. I know it is. I acknowledge I'm a racist person and personally truly believe everyone is racist. While I believe everyone is racist, I don't believe everyone is hatefully racist. I know I've been hatefully racist towards whites before. I know I've been hatefully racist toward hispanics. I don't claim living in an integrated community has protected me from racism, but it's true that it's not something I incur as a part everyday life, like the rest of my life. In almost ten years, I probably couldn't pull together ten times I've been obviously crapped on. Though you know who hasn't once crapped on me? White people. Not one white person, and not one male of any color. I think I can understand the message you send, and why you might feel that way and want to send that message. My problem is being called stupid liar for receiving that message. You did in say it, you did in fact imply and suggest it, and I'd like you to acknowledge that.
Edited to remove personal stuff it was a waste of mental energy to share.
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You say you try to provoke me to understand me? Well geez, why can't you just ASK? That seems a lot nicer to ask.
Forgot this. Maybe simply don't know the right questions. Maybe it's just my way. Not really certain.
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Side note...thats a big paragraph.
What you stated as fact was a lie. If you could not see that, even when I made it clear, you are a liar. Stating an untruth makes you a liar...sticking by an untruth even when it is pointed out to you, makes you a special kind of liar.
But then you said- if I said you were wrong then you could accept that as true. So I was satisfied that you are not a special kind of liar. I would still appreciate if you wouldn't state things as fact which are not true about myself in the future.
The thing about racism is- you don't have to be crapped on by a white person to be crapped on by white privilege. I have been poorly treated by various peoples- but difficulties with individual people is not oppression. Oppression is when I am treated like a foreigner on almost every level of society- like someone who is out of place. Like someone who needs to be put in my place. When that is accepted. When people see me and assume I do not belong or have bad intentions, not based on how I dress or talk, but based solely on my skin, on my hair. 9.6 times out of 10, people don't know its racist. They are just reacting to stereotypes hammered into their mind by the way cities are developed, schools are run, and the media portrays people. They couldn't know it is racism because it is touted as fact, as status quo. It is worse when those stereotypes are internalised.
Small illustration: Do I know what its like to be Asian? Nope. I grew up with Asian family, uncles, aunties...and friends. I knew more about Asian worldviews as a child than I did of western european worldviews. My friends I love dearly, but I do not know what it is like to BE them. Just recently I read this piece by an asian man about this thing in asian american culture...and he pointed out some things I never even imagined. I knew Asians had the model minority stereotype- but it is deeper. For asian men, they are not seen as manly, but rather as feminine, and that gender element seeps into interactions, and in emasculating comments they receive from white men. There is a whole world of oppression and frustration they are exposed to that I would never have been mindful of, and in fact, I doubt I am even aware of half of it. For asian women, they are highly sexualised. I am black, transgender...so many things. I experience oppression, but does that mean I know what it is like to be asian in america? Does that mean I have an inkling of the issues they can speak to?
As human beings we can all relate to pain, to the fact that oppression sucks. But we can't assess each others subjective experience in any way...I cannot look at someone and determine the level of pain they are in, and what dose will work, or even where exactly the pain is coming from. I just can't. I would have to take their word for it. It doesn't mean I am causing their pain, nor does it mean I have no way of relating.
oppression, racism, etc are like pain. They are subjectively experienced...but subjective experience doesn't disqualify it as real. Its real.
You didn't allow me to veer off topic, so I'm not going to allow you to do it either. You stamped your feet and shouted stupid liar. You never even remotely insinuated the message I received. If I can't quote it you didn't say it. Liar liar lies. Though you did say it, and I think it's very easy to see how I came to the conclusion I did. I'm asking you address that. You may not intend so send the message you send, but I've received the message of hate. The things you say generalize and demonize all of whites as a whole as being the bottom line true ill of society. You may not say the word hate, or blatantly say all whites are the bad people and the only bad people, but do certainly send that clear message. I don't reject racism is built into society. I know it is. I acknowledge I'm a racist person and personally truly believe everyone is racist. While I believe everyone is racist, I don't believe everyone is hatefully racist. I know I've been hatefully racist towards whites before. I know I've been hatefully racist toward hispanics. I don't claim living in an integrated community has protected me from racism, but it's true that it's not something I incur as a part everyday life, like the rest of my life. In almost ten years, I probably couldn't pull together ten times I've been obviously crapped on. Though you know who hasn't once crapped on me? White people. Not one white person, and not one male of any color. Sometimes it's been quite nasty. I once has an oriental woman completely ruin my nails to send me the message I wasn't welcome in that salon. I didn't even realize what she had done until I washed my hands and felt all the snagging rough edges. In looking closely, I saw the tip of every nail was covered with horrible tiny scratches and gouges. I didn't even say anything, because I didn't know what to say. So I left. Know what I did before I left? I stopped at the register and paid. Isn't that ridiculous that I paid for someone to destroy my nails? When my hair styles retired, I had a very difficult time finding someone new to cut my hair the way I like it, and I spent two years chair hopping salons trying. A black woman once chopped my hair up so horrible and crooked, there was no way I could deny I was being sent the message to not come back that black salon. Sometime it's assuming. I was once in the checkout at the grocery store, and the black cashier asked me if I would be paying for my overfilled cart of groceries with EBT. She automatically assumed I didn't have my own money to pay for all that food. Sometime is very socially excluding. In my last position, most of the office were dispersed through the facility within production departments, but I was in the front office. Along with me were my boss, the facility engineer, the HR manager, the HR secretary, and an accounts payable clerk. My boss was the only male, and the other women were Hispanics of various origin. The women had breakfast together every morning, and not once in two and half years did they ever once invite me to join their breakfast club. They were all but one American born, and all spoke perfect English, though they often excluded me from conversations by speaking in Spanish. I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't knowingly excluding me, because I know it's probably reflexive for people to default to their mother tongue. Though it was finally made clear to me it was knowingly. One day we were in the conference room working on a mother's day project. There were buckets and buckets of flowers, and we all sat at the table bundling them into small arrangements and tying them with notecards. I sat alone among them as they chatted and laughed about I don't know what. Then one of them said they should probably be speaking in English so I could participate, and I thought how nice. They spoke English for all of about two minutes before going back to chatting and laughing about I don't know what. I left the room and went back to work at my desk. Sometimes I truly hate women. I certainly don't know what it means to be transgender or gay. I do know how it feels to be hatefully racist against white people. Until I was eighteen I shared the message you send, white people were the bad people and the only bad people. I may not be black but I do think I know what it's like to be black, because until the age of eighteen I was black in a place where it wasn't nice at all to be black. No one ever cared to know different; I was always assumed as black, or part black, and referred to as that black girl, when people were polite enough not to call me nigger. I grew up with a bit of sympathy toward blacks, even though I never really knew any. I also know I'm not Hispanic, but I think I know what it's like to be Hispanic, because from the age of twenty one until my early thirties I was Hispanic in a place where it wasn't nice at all to be Hispanic, and even I could see why. Part of that time I was also poor, which made it worse. Even the Hispanics assumed I'm Hispanic, and that made me feel insulted and very angry with no sympathy and a level of hatred for Hispanics. I've been very successful in letting those things go and I believe it's been easier to do, due to living in a place where there are people who are accustomed to being around other people who are different from them. I think I can understand the message you send, and why you might feel that way and want to send that message. My problem is being called stupid liar for receiving that message. You did in say it, you did in fact imply and suggest it, and I'd like you to acknowledge that.
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You say you try to provoke me to understand me? Well geez, why can't you just ASK? That seems a lot nicer to ask.
Forgot this. Maybe simply don't know the right questions. Maybe it's just my way. Not really certain.
If you think I am saying something, you can ask "Are you saying xyz?"
You could ask me point blank- "Do you hate rich people?"
Your questions don't have to be "right".....but questions are better than provocation. Provocation is not a good way to treat anyone unless you know them well enough to make them laugh about it. But if they are not laughing, it is not good.
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I certainly did not lie when I said you made it clear, because you absolutely made it clear to me. I really am willing to accept that you didn't mean what you said the way I took it. I believe you, and stand accountable for misunderstanding. However you cannot accept any level of accountability for what you say. You are the victim.
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You say you try to provoke me to understand me? Well geez, why can't you just ASK? That seems a lot nicer to ask.
Forgot this. Maybe simply don't know the right questions. Maybe it's just my way. Not really certain.
If you think I am saying something, you can ask "Are you saying xyz?"
You could ask me point blank- "Do you hate rich people?"
Your questions don't have to be "right".....but questions are better than provocation. Provocation is not a good way to treat anyone unless you know them well enough to make them laugh about it. But if they are not laughing, it is not good.
Actually find a lot of things you write to be provoking. Maybe that's it.
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I certainly did not lie when I said you made it clear, because you absolutely made it clear to me. I really am willing to accept that you didn't mean what you said the way I took it. I believe you, and stand accountable for misunderstanding. However you cannot accept any level of accountability for what you say. You are the victim.
lie 2
Syllabification: lie
Pronunciation: /lī/
noun
1.1 Used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression:
all their married life she had been living a lie
SYNONYMS
untruthfulness, fabrication, fibbing, perjury, white lies;
falseness, falsity, dishonesty, mendacity, telling stories, invention, misrepresentation, deceit, duplicity
literary perfidy
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I believe I have appropriately used the word lie to describe your actions.
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One way of lying is equivocation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation), which is NOT the same as semantic ambiguity:
Equivocation
"Equivocation ("to call by the same name") is classified as an informal logical fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time). It generally occurs with polysemic words (words with multiple meanings).
Albeit in common parlance it is used in a variety of contexts, when discussed as a fallacy, equivocation only occurs when the arguer makes a word or phrase employed in two (or more) different senses in an argument appear to have the same meaning throughout.
It is therefore distinct from (semantic) ambiguity, which means that the context doesn't make the meaning of the word or phrase clear, and amphiboly (or syntactical ambiguity), which refers to ambiguous sentence structure due to punctuation or syntax."
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Okay, SG. You are correct. In my misunderstanding, I stated a lie. Do you still insist you never ever implied or suggested anything to cause that misunderstanding?
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If you take what I say in context (not just a blurb here and there), along with my responses to questions, and the fact I openly idealise a world of constant dialogue founded on mutual respect, and the fact that I am openly mixed race, it is preposterous to imagine that in all of THAT, that segregation was within any proximity of my dreams or desires. When in fact, that is probably as far from the truth as you could get. How many times have I said I valued diversity? how many times have I lamented lack of dialogue or understanding in society between peoples?
Almost anything I post about oppression is from that place. When I see imposed, politically maintained segregation it throws me into a fury...economic segregation is the worst. Self-segregation based on stereotypes is sad at best. People hating people, and people segregating people is the root of much of the discrimination and racism I complain about. How can I want apartheid/segregation when it is the thing I hate most? When it is the very thing I rant about?
If I did a poor job of making that clear, I apologise. But I know that I certainly did NOT EVER imply or suggest anything in support of segregation, or that I hated rich people, or that I find white people intrusive. I did NOT make that clear to you or anyone else. Of this I am sure.
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If I am ever in another furious mood about oppression, and come here to rant, I will be sure to make it clearer to you where that is coming from. However, if I do not (because of being in a mood too angry to articulate), please ask me. When I am calmer I will be happy to oblige you the answers.
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I understand you didn't intend to imply any such thing, and I can't say anymore to try to make you understand to still did anyway. The things you write don't often appear to come form a place of valuing understanding. It's the same narrative which sparks so much tension in sexism. It strikes me as coming from a place of great generalizations, a place that offers no room for the individual, a place where racism only comes in one color, and a place where all white people are oppressive by default merely for being white, and if they don't understand they're an oppressor then they're just oblivious to it. It's a demonizing place that comes from, an inescapable place for the white person because the individual must accept they are born inherently bad to satisfy that narrative. Thanks for struggling through this with me, SG, I think it was a good thing for us, but I doubt I'll be participating in anymore of your future rants.
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I doubt I'll be participating in anymore of your future rants.
I know I can come across as harsh, and I don't want this statement to be misunderstood. I knew before I even saw this thread that I'm going to have to stop having conversations with you about racially motivated topics.
Edited to remove personal stuff it was a waste of mental energy to share.
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Well I wouldn't want you to stop participating in any of my rants...which lets face it, will probably continue because thats just how I am...all it takes is an event or an article to get my mind burning. I welcome your comments, perspectives- thats why I post. I just don't like words being put into my mouth. That is all. When I post something, my reasons for doing so may not always be simple, or easy to guess. But they are there if you ever wanted to ask.
My brain is compartmentalised, but my thinking is circular...so my perspectives are.... oblong? I dunno...just not easy to categorise my opinions because I am at any given point trying to incorporate too many POVs at once. When I offer a POV, in my head I am giving it a space it requires for everything to be balanced.
^^^
That probably made zero sense...but its how my brain works when I talk about things like oppression. So we both have issues maybe. Maybe its a spazz thing. I don't know... :dunno:
About the skin thing- it is not a statement about how I feel, it is a statement about how people are treated in society. Its an illustration to demonstrate why it is black people are harassed just for their skin, and thought to be up to no good if they are in certain spaces like a university or a store...
what is it in the american pysche makes a cop more likely to react to a black person with gunfire than a white person? what is it that makes people misremember a white perp as black? what is it that makes a person feel less empathy for a black person than a white person? what is it that makes children as young as 4 know that black skin is uglier than white skin? what is it that makes teachers rate black boys are more disruptive than white boys displaying the same behaviour? what is it that makes black people perform worse on exams when they are reminded of their race?
those are scientific findings from our country...and they play out everyday interactions...the only way to challenge that widespread attitude in our country is to understand it. one way to understand it is to think of society in terms of spaces, and there being white spaces and black spaces. then you get a better idea of why a black person is assumed to be "out of place" in certain environments and "in place" in the ghetto. especially when you know the history of how and why black ghettos were created.
I offered that thought mainly to wolfish, because my father and I just had had a conversation about it after listening to a radio interview. a professor said it, and we agreed that that illustration was a good one for how we are treated in society. understanding is empowerment.
Of course, carrying the ghetto on our skin is not true, that is the point. it is not true, but people act as if it is.
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You can post directly in the gallery, SG. I think we're done.
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removed my reply to the post in peanut gallery since you thought it irrelevant here.
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Didn't think it irrelevant; just thought it was posted here because of the rule of not responding in the gallery until the callout is over. Took me a long time to understand why behind that rule, it's okay to post gallery in the callout, but not actually in the gallery.
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ah, okay.
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well i only wanted it here as a continuation of our conversation, so its okay. I may hop over to the peanut gallery later.
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one way to understand it is to think of society in terms of spaces, and there being white spaces and black spaces.
It's the most fucked up understnadnng I've evefr hreaerd. :GA:
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one way to understand it is to think of society in terms of spaces, and there being white spaces and black spaces.
It's the most fucked up understnadnng I've evefr hreaerd. :GA:
Thats kind of the point. It's fucked up.
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Jack, in case you don't know, I appreciate you and am thankful for the time we spent in this call out. I am sorry if I ever unknowingly mislead you. Its not my intention to.
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I appreciate you too, SG, and also sorry for offending you. Have never before felt the need to discuss racial issues here because I'm at a point in my life were I don't think about it much, and it doesn't matter to me very much because people around me don't make it matter. You made it matter, and from a vantage point of white people I don't commonly feel the need to defend. I think I've been so defensive toward you because you've said some things I find not only divisive, but also things racist and demeaning toward people I care about. The thing that bothered me the most was that it was being presented as an intelligent rationale. Am a big proponent of free speech, and understand some racists are that way because they have baggage too, and they should be free to come out with it. I prefer to face the loud bigot than the covert one. I like racism blatant and hateful so it can't be sneaky or denied, and when I say bigoted crap I just say bigoted crap without any attempt to cover up the smell. Thank you for making clear your actual intention. I'm thinking about the Freeman video Sir Les' posted, and Freeman is right. Stop talking about it. I think I should go back to doing that.
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I don't know Freeman personally, but from what he said, I highly doubt he meant stop talking about altogether. What I got from it is, stop talking about black history as if it is separate from colonial history. The story of slavery, abolition, jim crow, segregation, and discrimination is all of our stories and everyone should talk about as american history, not as special history. The same with native histories, or at the very least the history of natives to the locale of our states and towns ought to be known, and should not be delegated to a month, or a special studies course, but is something that should be blended with regular instruction.
We HAVE to talk about things that are real, otherwise they are not going to change, or get worse. Or, we are going to do things unmindful of their actual meaning, like make an Indian mascot with no idea why "redskins" is hurtful.
Talking about racism is not supposed to be comfortable....its disquieting, but change is disquieting. I don't make race matter, society does. The news does. The government does. The people who treat me and my family badly do.
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Look, you say you don't have to think about racism and I am not challenging you. That's your personal experience. In the same way, discrimination is a real and personal experience for many people. The same as autie discrimination. If one person never had to think about being autie, and another person got beat up a lot for it, do you think that the person who got beat up should never rant? should never talk about it? should never ask why? should never advocate for more protection? should never challenge the attitudes which lead them to be seen as different and a punching bag in the first place? Do you think that other person who did not experience discrimination has grounds to call the autie who is angry and upset at society an "ableist" for their feelings?
Thats how I feel you react when anyone brings up racism. You can have your experiences, but you are in no position to discount another persons experiences, or decide that because they want to talk about something that they are racist.
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Not really saying you should stop talking about it, just me. Sure I have to think about it, just not a lot, I've no need to spend lots of time thinking or talking about it. It's a tiring subject I don't like discussing, and I think people's minds are probably set in one direction or the other, so too much talk probably only stirs tensions; I know it does mine, and while I've had some extreme mindset changes about race, ranting never achieved that for me. You have a point about the history, and I think you're right. I was thinking about it today trying to get why the things you say come across so differently to me than you intend them. I think the largest part is simply the generalization being all us or them bad guys and good guys, but I also think a big part of it is the history. That's what makes the rationale so intelligent. There's no white who can deny the fact of history and some horrible history lead society to where it is today. It's similar to when some whites drag up crime statistics to use them to make a bigoted statement into an intelligent rationale about all blacks; I know crime stat arguments are intellectual dishonesty, just like I know blacks aren't slaves. Dragging up history when trying to address current problems, makes those problems to now be problems of the children of slaves and the children of slave owners, and I think it can come across as a clever bigoted approach.
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It's a tiring subject I don't like discussing
Actually that's not true; maybe just don't like it when it and offence/defense us/them, or debate type discussion; when it's relaxed and personal can enjoy it a lot.
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Not really if you consider the creation of black ghettos (which exist today) and how that harks back to us being freed and unwanted. And how white flight was orchestrated by companies paying black people to push strollers through white neighborhoods and call peoples number pretending its a wrong number so the residents would feel their neighborhood was becoming black and sell their homes for cheap. Those companies would then buy the homes and jack the prices back up for black buyers. And how hospitals situated themselves near to ghettos so that medical students would have easy access to black cadavers. And how police brutality followed the black migrations, when our state governments brought racist cops from the south to the areas out west to control them. Yesterday and today are very closely related.
And I don't bring it up all the time. I rant, especially when it is in the news. People respond, and a long conversation is carried on. But I post plenty of other topics that people can carry on about, they just don't seem to be as hot button as race, or perhaps most have an agreeing perspective so there is not much to carry on about.
You can have your feelings about who I am or why I do things, and I pay attention to the feedback if you haven't noticed. But I also know what is real, and that I am not a bigot for perceiving and pointing out inequalities. If your friends are so offended, they can talk to me themselves. You don't need to act like you have to defend them because I do not know them, nor am I ever attacking them. You live in Florida? Heck, they could be my relatives. So they can approach me and we can get to know each other and they can tell me what they feel.
But in all honesty, I am less concerned about your friends (who are not here) than I am about someone here who I know and care about. For instance, what Odeon pointed out to me, that went straight to my heart, because I know him and I trust that if he is feeling guilty about something then that means I need to watch my language and think of ways of saying things that are more open to involvement of others. This is why these issues need to be discussed because the language and understanding around them can become very polarised. And that polarisation is the very thing Freeman, and even DrMLKjr were pointing out...that polarisation is something I have become very familiar with, especially since I have first been here.
Bottom line- when you point out things, I care about what YOU are feeling, and if I perceive you misunderstand something I try to explain that is not what I meant- beyond that I cannot help if you continue to react to something I did not mean. I also make a point to change my language for the next time since I know what bothers you. But when you bring up friends of yours, I would be a fool to change my language based on someone I don't know and their hypothetical feelings.
If I see something a certain way I'll up and say it...and most of the time I will not give details about my personal friendships and experiences. My conversation will almost ALWAYS go straight to "how can society be improved", or "why is society messed up", not "how can I resolve this specific xyz issue". When something happens I am not asking all white people to explain why that happened as if I am accusing them or whatever. That does not even cross my mind. I am looking at society and wanting to figure out how it could be better. And in that I will bring up history, culture, policy, whatever. This is me trying to understand the world. If your friends are offended by THAT, if you think THAT is bigotry, then fine. As far as I am concerned I am not killing anyone, calling names, or starting a white hate group, or even encouraging hate for any race. I am not even starting a black is beautiful thread. I am talking about societal issues from a perspective I am familiar.
Segregation isn't just a race issue anyways, and I never put on a thread: THIS IS FOR BLACK PEOPLE ONLY. Bloody hell, anyone could chime in and talk about the poor white neighborhoods, and economic segregation, and appalachian discrimination. Those real issues to get into, and they have everything to do with race and culture. I don't prevent that from happening. I just speak from the vantage that I have. And all I have is all I have. I cant have every POV offered on a plate. That is for others to contribute. Just because I have my own experience does NOT make me a bigot.
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It makes me think of couples who argue about something, and bring up every bad that ever happened the relationship in the process, none of which is a dialog toward achieving a solutions to the current problem, so we might just have to agree to disagree about throwing painful history around. Didn't mean to imply I actually have any friends; I don't and haven't in a very long time. I do have family members who react like odeon did, feeling guilty for things they simply haven't done, and would never say anything at all to defend themselves in a conversation where whites are generalized in negative terms, for fear of being called racist. You don't have to care about them, or that I felt hurt for them. Also have family members who would rail against it refusing to have anyone's guilt thrown at their feet, and also family members who are bigoted for reasons of legitimate baggage which I'm willing to be understanding of. I've also realized I can pay more attention to the words I use, as you've gotten the impression my response has been to try to deny the existence of racism and oppression in the structure of society, and that is never a message would want to send. Just prefer to give some credit to the individuals who don't fit the negative stereotype of an given group. There's definitely something to be said for fighting the negative, but also something to be said rewarding the positive, and good and bad people know no social boundaries. Good talk, SG.