INTENSITY²
Start here => Free For ALL => Topic started by: Adam on January 18, 2011, 06:53:37 PM
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When talking about a transgendered person?
And no I don't mean me personally, just wondering why
For me I obviously don't care what sex they are so will refer to them as whatever they identify as
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I find this difficult. I keep referring to GA as "he" but obviously he would prefer "she". He also wants me to call him Kayleigh but I haven't gotten around to doing that either.
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I understand that tbh - you are in a rare situation I guess, which must be difficult
What about random people though, or friends? I can't remember if you call me he or she
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I'm inconsistent. I refer to you as "he" because I always thought you were a guy anyway, but I can see why some people still refer to, say,
Chaz Bono as "she," if they knew him as a female for many years before the transition. I guess if the trans person looks like the gender
they identify with, I use that pronoun, but if they look more like the gender they were born as, I use that pronoun.
I don't mean any disrespect by it, I just trip up over the physical appearance.
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Most scholars have (for generations) insisted that English should have a gender-non-specific set of pronouns.
It makes perfect sense, since we do not include gender in "things" as with most Latin-based languages. Why should we include gender when we speak to each other? We are setting ourselves up to simply fail at communication, again!
It is a very rare instance when knowledge or description of gender plays a part in understanding what someone else is trying to say.
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Most scholars have (for generations) insisted that English should have a gender-non-specific set of pronouns.
It makes perfect sense, since we do not include gender in "things" as with most Latin-based languages. Why should we include gender when we speak to each other? We are setting ourselves p to simply fail at communication, again!
We have "it".
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In the South we have the cover-all-occasions Ya'll.
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I used whatever pronoun the person wants me to use. I would respect a person enough to at least refer to them as the appropriate gender.
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I have a tenancy to use the wrong ones all the time so you get what you get :laugh:
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Most scholars have (for generations) insisted that English should have a gender-non-specific set of pronouns.
It makes perfect sense, since we do not include gender in "things" as with most Latin-based languages. Why should we include gender when we speak to each other? We are setting ourselves up to simply fail at communication, again!
It is a very rare instance when knowledge or description of gender plays a part in understanding what someone else is trying to say.
Yes, but English shares common descent with German, and German has gender for things too.
It's based on the gender of the word itself. A cat, for example, is a she even if it's a male cat. :dunno:
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English used to have a gender neutral pronoun iirc
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English used to have a gender neutral pronoun iirc
You shouldn't've allowed the Normans to invade. :P
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Don't know any in real life, but guess would use what they prefer. If they have no preference, then whatever comes natural to say.
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i usualy just refer to them as it *sarcasm* usually i just say what there dressed as as thats usually the polite thing to do assuming they identify with the way they dress and not that they have yet to get a new wardrobe
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Whatever the person identifies as.
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I can't remember if you call me he or she
Admittedly she. :-\
But will change to he if you want. :) Because of GA I now realise how important this can be. Have also been wondering what you will choose for your male name.
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(http://i26.tinypic.com/x5pl45.jpg)
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(http://www.blackghettobitches.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/image-355.jpg)
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Most scholars have (for generations) insisted that English should have a gender-non-specific set of pronouns.
It makes perfect sense, since we do not include gender in "things" as with most Latin-based languages. Why should we include gender when we speak to each other? We are setting ourselves up to simply fail at communication, again!
It is a very rare instance when knowledge or description of gender plays a part in understanding what someone else is trying to say.
Yes, but English shares common descent with German, and German has gender for things too.
It's based on the gender of the word itself. A cat, for example, is a she even if it's a male cat. :dunno:
In the dialect of the village I grew up everyone is a he. The dialect is very close to German. So, the origin of the language is no excuse.
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When talking about a transgendered person?
And no I don't mean me personally, just wondering why
For me I obviously don't care what sex they are so will refer to them as whatever they identify as
Ditto.
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Men and boys as he and women and Girls as she.
If they are genetically and biologically born that way then that is how I will refer to then as. The rest in my view is just skirting around what I consider pretty cut and dried.
It in my mind is like me saying "I don't want to be 40. I want you all to respect me and pretend I am a 18 year old stud. I want you all to treat me like I am 18 irrespective of my age. I will wear cool hip clothes and tell everyone I am 18 and fresh out of school and try to pick up young chicks" I am not and can never be. Too bad Les you old fuck you are 40. (No, no mid-life crisis, it really doesn't bother me) OR like me saying I don't want to be Autistic. Sorry too bad.
That is just me. I don't consider it disrespectful. It is like a big pretend that I don't get. "Mr Jones has decided he wants to be a woman and so from now on you call him Ms Jones". OK. "Yes and you have to change your thinking completely when you see them. They will be wearing a dress and talking in falsetto and wearing a wig and behaving feminine." OK that will freak me out having known Mr Jones and I seeing that change and yes I will get what they are after and wanting. I will not be boysie with them or seek to embarrass them. Each to their own and whatever.
What I will not do though is pretend that they don't still look like a man pretending to be a woman or pretend that they have transformed on a biological level. I think it is a bit much to expect, and changing the pronoun, in my thoughts, is not respecting me to refer to them as I always have. As much as they would not be the biological sex they were born with, they are and will be.
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Why does it bother you though? It's not exactly hard to just refer to someone as she.
Also a lot of people aren't 100% male or female, and you would never know this
imo it's no one else's business what sex someone is, so I will refer to them as whatever they tell me they are
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LOL, could you lift your skirt please, or drop your pants. I want to make sure I address you the right way.
That definitely will go down wrong. :boxers:
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LOL, could you lift your skirt please, or drop your pants. I want to make sure I address you the right way.
That definitely will go down wrong. :boxers:
:lol:
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btw I understand if it';s someone you knew before transition. I found it difficult getting used to GA and that's just someone I know ONLINE. I would still make the effort though
I mean I';d find it ridiculous for someone to refer to an obvious woman as "he"
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LOL, could you lift your skirt please, or drop your pants. I want to make sure I address you the right way.
That definitely will go down wrong. :boxers:
Dogs sniff butts, that way they don't need to remove clothes.
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Last year I met a girl who thinks she is a FTM transsexual. However, she dates guys. She is most probably also an Aspie.
I don't really believe in the idea of such a person being a transsexual. She's a "boygirl" as we would say here, a person with a typical "manly" personality but born with a vagina. If you're born with a vagina but still have an attraction to men, why do a gender change? All you have to do is dressing like a guy, cutting your hair short etc. The same goes for a man who is born with a penis and has an attraction to women, although he likes having long hair, a smooth body, wearing a skirt or dress etc. You can address them as what they like, but I find a change of the outer genitalia totally unneccesarily for them, because the sexuality is in the brain anyway.
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Gender identity has nothing to do with sexuality though. Who I'm atttracted to is completely irrelevant.
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LOL, could you lift your skirt please, or drop your pants. I want to make sure I address you the right way.
That definitely will go down wrong. :boxers:
Dogs sniff butts, that way they don't need to remove clothes.
Wonder what hormone therapy will do to the scent of intimate bits. :nerd!:
But, since butt sniffing is not social acceptable street behaviour of humans, I think it will take a while before there will be research of how feminine and male private bits smell on different persons.
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One funny thing. My left armpit sometimes smell a bit like a wet pussy. No idea why. Have observed it for at least 15 years. :zombiefuck:
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One funny thing. My left armpit sometimes smell a bit like a wet pussy. No idea why. Have observed it for at least 15 years. :zombiefuck:
OMG, your armpit may get it's first period soon.
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btw I understand if it';s someone you knew before transition. I found it difficult getting used to GA and that's just someone I know ONLINE. I would still make the effort though
I mean I';d find it ridiculous for someone to refer to an obvious woman as "he"
A rose is a rose even if it refers to itself as a carnation. No amount of makeup or surgery will change a body containing XX chromosomes into one containing XY chromosomes or vice versa. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/305250.html (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/305250.html)
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How do you know what chromosomes someone has? Some people don't even know themselves
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Also people who are trans aren't claiming to have changed their chromosomes, so I dunno what that has to do with anything
Oh and I know what that quote means - someone I knew in school used to say it
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How do you know what chromosomes someone has? Some people don't even know themselves
Fine Soph. Pretend that XX and XY chromosomes don't exist or define female and male respectively if that belief suits you. ::)
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lol what? When did I say chromosomes don't exist?
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I'm inconsistent. Is it important?
Finnish uses a gender neutral pronoun. Easier that way. ;D
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lol what? When did I say chromosomes don't exist?
How do you know what chromosomes someone has? Some people don't even know themselves
Males have XY, females have XX. The fact that rare exceptions exist does not make XX/XY not the normally found variants. I seriously doubt that you don't know this, I suspect that you are being deliberately obtuse, much like religious people you are so quick to criticize. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system)
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Again, where did I say chromosomes don't exist? Everything I said is accurate, and you're not really gonna prove anything by linking to wikipedia
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Again, where did I say chromosomes don't exist? Everything I said is accurate, and you're not really gonna prove anything by linking to wikipedia
Wiki works fine in this case since the XX/XY model is the general scientific consensus. If it is not, then show me what is. Do you define a dog as male because he has a penis? Or do you withhold judgment based on not knowing if he really wants to be female?
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Dude I never denied XX/XY chromosomes
What if you had sex wit a woman and then found out she was actually XY? Would you then consider yourself bisexua/gay? I mean you've just been turned on by and fucked a man, in your view, right? :laugh:
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Dude I never denied XX/XY chromosomes
What if you had sex wit a woman and then found out she was actually XY? Would you then consider yourself bisexua/gay? I mean you've just been turned on by and fucked a man, in your view, right? :laugh:
Correct. You did not answer the question I posed about a dog with a penis. If Generalrazorbeard jerked off that dog and the semen was tested and confirmed to have XY chromosomes would you define that dog as male? Or not decide based on the fact that he may want to be a she? How did you determine that Lily is a female Soph?
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Wow so you'd then think of yourself as no longer straight? No you even know for sure that all the women you've slept with are XX? :laugh:
I didn't think that was a question you actually expected me to answer, sorry
No, if a dog has a penis I will refer to him as he. Dogs arae obviously different to humans and I doubt you get transgendered dogs
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Wow so you'd then think of yourself as no longer straight? No you even know for sure that all the women you've slept with are XX? :laugh:
I didn't think that was a question you actually expected me to answer, sorry
No, if a dog has a penis I will refer to him as he. Dogs arae obviously different to humans and I doubt you get transgendered dogs
Actually if I had been deceived I would consider myself a heterosexual male who has been duped. I saw a man made snatch in Hustler magazine a couple of decades back and it didn't look like the real thing. Humans are part of the animal kingdom and mammal class. In this > thread http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,16447.0.html (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,16447.0.html) in post #12 you mention religious people ignoring evidence, but you just acknowledged that vagina/cock or XX/XY is sufficient evidence that Lily is a female but do not appear to acknowledge that the same traits in people establish whether they are male or female.
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Someone with a XY chroimosome is genetically male, yes - no shit
Whether you were deceived or not is irrelevant - you were still attractred to her (a man, in your opiniion), therefore you are not straight
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Dude I never denied XX/XY chromosomes
What if you had sex wit a woman and then found out she was actually XY? Would you then consider yourself bisexua/gay? I mean you've just been turned on by and fucked a man, in your view, right? :laugh:
Correct. You did not answer the question I posed about a dog with a penis. If Generalrazorbeard jerked off that dog and the semen was tested and confirmed to have XY chromosomes would you define that dog as male? Or not decide based on the fact that he may want to be a she? How did you determine that Lily is a female Soph?
The bolded part is what I answered correct to.
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Someone with a XY chroimosome is genetically male, yes - no shit
Whether you were deceived or not is irrelevant - you were still attractred to her (a man, in your opiniion), therefore you are not straight
Okay Soph, you got me. In your hypothetical I would be converted to queer.
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And what about your former partners then? Have you checked their chromosomes?
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Someone with a XY chroimosome is genetically male, yes - no shit
Whether you were deceived or not is irrelevant - you were still attractred to her (a man, in your opiniion), therefore you are not straight
So we finally find a point of agreement.
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And what about your former partners then? Have you checked their chromosomes?
The possibility you allude to is too remote to concern me. Not the existence of chopped trannies, just the idea that adam's apples, voice, bone structure and a fake pussy somehow escaped my notice.
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Voice?
btw you seem to think that all transsexuals look like transvestites. Afer hormone therapy and surgery, a lot pass much better than you'd think
I'd find it hilarious if you'd been "deceived" :lol:
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Get your kicks where you can.
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Last year I met a girl who thinks she is a FTM transsexual. However, she dates guys. She is most probably also an Aspie.
I don't really believe in the idea of such a person being a transsexual. She's a "boygirl" as we would say here, a person with a typical "manly" personality but born with a vagina.
We call 'em tomboys here. 8)
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People used to think I was a tomboy when I was a kid
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People used to think I was a tomboy when I was a kid
Well, duh, you ARE a tomboy. ::)
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Sure :zoinks:
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Sure :zoinks:
Wanna play doctor?? :zoinks:
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ok bend over :zoinks:
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ok bend over :zoinks:
That's my line!!! >:( :razz:
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ok bend over :zoinks:
That's my line!!! >:( :razz:
Hell for the record I will not hit on or flirt with Gay women or transgendered women. I will not treat them as girls or women. I personally think that this is and ought to be suffice. To go the extra step and "trick myself" that they are biologically not women is kinda pointless.
Like the midlife crisis example. I will respect the blokes decision to dress like a kind and sport a teenager's hotted up car and new hair style. I will understand the concept of him wanting to return to a place in time that he was younger and whatever that comes with that. More than that I will not pretend he is not in actually a middle-aged man I think that is both silly and unnecessary.
May make me a judgmental person or bigoted or a good many more things but I can live with that.
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Why does it matter to you though? I mean you don't have to "trick yourself" into anything
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Because I would feel uncomfortable with it.
I think that it is also equally pointless in calling someone I know is biologically a she a he or visa versa.
I think that as much as me not making a fuss or their choice or preference and allowing them to be who or what they are or perceive themselves to be, and treating them in the social conformation they chose (lumps and all) I ought not feel obliged or have it placed on me to HAVE to call them a she when I know them not to be so.
Mutual respect of choices I guess
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What is gender to you then? XX/XY? penis/vagina?
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Soph I am not sure it really matters as you will likely say "Well in this example, by your reasoning, "X" so therefore you should "Y" ". The truth is I don't need to take on any definitions to fit in with any preconception of what you believe I should think.
If someone is born a girl I will see them as a girl and later in life after puberty as a woman.
Now along the way they may identify as a man or a boy or a martian. I don't really care.
I will allow them to believe what they believe or identify as. I will not believe them to be what they believe they are.
I will respect the fact that they identify strongly with what they identify as and live and let live. I see no real point in trying to find flaws in my want to believe what I believe. Nor will I try to sway their belief.
If someone was to say for example. "I am heterosexual" and I found out that they do or have experimented with sex with the same sex then that defines them in my view as not heterosexual but bi-sexual. They can disclaim this as narrow thinking on my part or argue til they are black and blue that they are "100% hetero" and that any previous, present or future sexual forays with the same sex are to be discounted from my assessment of things.
That doesn't mean I should change my mind.
Where does that leave things? Well it comes down to this; does my rationale harm them? Is it inconsistent? Does it mean I view anyone else as lesser or worse? Is this demeaning? I think the answer in all respects is no.
I am sure that anyone demanding respect for their beliefs in this matter will be more than happy to extend the same for someone who holds reasonable and differing views.
What do you think Soph?
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Do you see me as being dishonest?
I guess I just don't understand why it's a problem for some people
Personally I think it is demeaning yes - I would never refer to a woman as "he" just because she had been born male or was XY. It would feel rude and disrespectful
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Do you see me as being dishonest?
I guess I just don't understand why it's a problem for some people
Personally I think it is demeaning yes - I would never refer to a woman as "he" just because she had been born male or was XY. It would feel rude and disrespectful
I think you are identifying with something that you feel and is true and important for you. Is that dishonest? Nope.
I identify very strongly with being an Aussie. This is far more than me knowing or appreciating that I was born in Australia. I identify and associate very strongly to many things real, true or not that associate with "being an Aussie". It doesn't matter a damn if I am viewing these things under bias or rose coloured glasses or whether my concept is weird or different to every other Aussie alive or dead. It is important to me and I don't give a damn who shares that with me. It is personal.
I think it would be rude and disrespectful for anyone to judge me unkindly for not agreeing to call them the pronoun associated with anything other than their biological makeup/birth. I think that is forcing their concepts of gender on me. I think I ought to be entitled to my position.
Why should it matter? I am sure a transexual's identity and position is a personal one. Why would they care or think to change anyone else's position on how they must address and identify with them?
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Do you see me as being dishonest?
I guess I just don't understand why it's a problem for some people
Personally I think it is demeaning yes - I would never refer to a woman as "he" just because she had been born male or was XY. It would feel rude and disrespectful
I think you are identifying with something that you feel and is true and important for you. Is that dishonest? Nope.
I identify very strongly with being an Aussie. This is far more than me knowing or appreciating that I was born in Australia. I identify and associate very strongly to many things real, true or not that associate with "being an Aussie". It doesn't matter a damn if I am viewing these things under bias or rose coloured glasses or whether my concept is weird or different to every other Aussie alive or dead. It is important to me and I don't give a damn who shares that with me. It is personal.
I think it would be rude and disrespectful for anyone to judge me unkindly for not agreeing to call them the pronoun associated with anything other than their biological makeup/birth. I think that is forcing their concepts of gender on me. I think I ought to be entitled to my position.
Why should it matter? I am sure a transexual's identity and position is a personal one. Why would they care or think to change anyone else's position on how they must address and identify with them?
im going to have to go with sir_les on this one. if someone respectfully asked me to refer to them as a girl/boy when he/she was of the opposite physical gender i would have no problem with doing so. but if the opinion that they were to be forced apon me and they demanded me to refer to them as say a girl i would be more likely to say "heh your a boy, DEAL WITH IT B*TCH" i am somewhat of a asshole though
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I geuinely can't think of anything intelligent to add to this conversation , so I'll just say...
(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0908/its-a-trap-demotivational-poster-1250102718.jpg)
http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,16325.0.html
:autism:
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Do you see me as being dishonest?
I guess I just don't understand why it's a problem for some people
Personally I think it is demeaning yes - I would never refer to a woman as "he" just because she had been born male or was XY. It would feel rude and disrespectful
I think you are identifying with something that you feel and is true and important for you. Is that dishonest? Nope.
I identify very strongly with being an Aussie. This is far more than me knowing or appreciating that I was born in Australia. I identify and associate very strongly to many things real, true or not that associate with "being an Aussie". It doesn't matter a damn if I am viewing these things under bias or rose coloured glasses or whether my concept is weird or different to every other Aussie alive or dead. It is important to me and I don't give a damn who shares that with me. It is personal.
I think it would be rude and disrespectful for anyone to judge me unkindly for not agreeing to call them the pronoun associated with anything other than their biological makeup/birth. I think that is forcing their concepts of gender on me. I think I ought to be entitled to my position.
Why should it matter? I am sure a transexual's identity and position is a personal one. Why would they care or think to change anyone else's position on how they must address and identify with them?
im going to have to go with sir_les on this one. if someone respectfully asked me to refer to them as a girl/boy when he/she was of the opposite physical gender i would have no problem with doing so. but if the opinion that they were to be forced apon me and they demanded me to refer to them as say a girl i would be more likely to say "heh your a boy, DEAL WITH IT B*TCH" i am somewhat of a asshole though
LOL I would too. if someone is going to be an asshole about it and force me to say it their way, I'll just troll them relentlessly on it.
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Ok I have something moore intelligent than "It's a trap" to add to this conversation now :P
Personally gender pronouns aren't important to me , why can't we refer to people by their name?
and before anyone says "But you never get called the wrong gender" I get called "She" , "Madam" , "young lady" etc etc, Especially by older generations it seems :laugh:
honestly I don't give a monkey's pingas about it , I find it kind of amusing really.
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I would never try and force anyone to refer to me as anything, gender or otherwise. I've never even asked. It is totally up to other people what they call me, I know that
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I think that everyone is going to react to you differently, and everyone will have a different opinion of what to call you
some people call me by my first name, some people call me mistress. It depends on who it is.
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some people call me by my first name, some people call me mistress. It depends on who it is.
Thats awesome , you should sig that :laugh:
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I geuinely can't think of anything intelligent to add to this conversation , so I'll just say...
(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0908/its-a-trap-demotivational-poster-1250102718.jpg)
http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,16325.0.html
:autism:
That's never stopped you before. :zoinks:
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That's never stopped you before. :zoinks:
:lol: :plus:
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That's never stopped you before. :zoinks:
:moon:
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Do you see me as being dishonest?
I guess I just don't understand why it's a problem for some people
Personally I think it is demeaning yes - I would never refer to a woman as "he" just because she had been born male or was XY. It would feel rude and disrespectful
I think you are identifying with something that you feel and is true and important for you. Is that dishonest? Nope.
I identify very strongly with being an Aussie. This is far more than me knowing or appreciating that I was born in Australia. I identify and associate very strongly to many things real, true or not that associate with "being an Aussie". It doesn't matter a damn if I am viewing these things under bias or rose coloured glasses or whether my concept is weird or different to every other Aussie alive or dead. It is important to me and I don't give a damn who shares that with me. It is personal.
I think it would be rude and disrespectful for anyone to judge me unkindly for not agreeing to call them the pronoun associated with anything other than their biological makeup/birth. I think that is forcing their concepts of gender on me. I think I ought to be entitled to my position.
Why should it matter? I am sure a transexual's identity and position is a personal one. Why would they care or think to change anyone else's position on how they must address and identify with them?
Very well put. :plus:
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One funny thing. My left armpit sometimes smell a bit like a wet pussy. No idea why. Have observed it for at least 15 years. :zombiefuck:
OMG, your armpit may get it's first period soon.
Good observation!
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I think it would be rude and disrespectful for anyone to judge me unkindly for not agreeing to call them the pronoun associated with anything other than their biological makeup/birth. I think that is forcing their concepts of gender on me. I think I ought to be entitled to my position.
Just gonna respond to this bit
I don't think I have been rude or disrespectful to anyone who calls me "she." In fact I usually just ignore it or find it funny. But I also think it's fine if someone does judge someone else who refuses to refer to them as the gender they identify as, if they see that as wrong. I mean we all judge people based on how they act, and if someone acts in a way we think is rude/disrespectful ourselves then we can't really be blamed for judging them badly
I respect other people's rights to refer to someone as whatever they like, and that's fine with me. I would never ask someone to call me "he" if they preferred calling me "she" for whatever reason. But at the same time I also have the right to view that as disrespectful myself. And I don't think that makes me rude. I definitely don't intend to be rude or disrespectful towards you anyway, Les
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Oh hell Soph, if there was a chance of you being pulled up for being sensitive or inconsistent or whatever over being transgendered, it would have happened buy now.
My default for anyone's issue is get over yourself. I simply don't believe you have anything to get over.
You are right in how you perceive yourself I think of you as "Soph". Not as the Autistic person. Not the Pom. Not the dog enthusiast. Not the OCD sufferer. Not the liker of weird bands. Just Soph.
I have no real issue with you being Soph or all the things that make you, you.
I don't think you have a driving need to validate that and I don't think you should. All good.
Furthermore I don't think I need to soul-search as to why I think of you as Soph or where flaws lie in my concept of who or what you are.
That is where I stand on this and I am quite content and comfortable with my position.
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Oh hell Soph, if there was a chance of you being pulled up for being sensitive or inconsistent or whatever over being transgendered, it would have happened buy now.
Are you saying you think I am sensitive/inconsistent or you think I'm not ?
And I don't think you need to soul-search over me either - it is up to you how you see me and that is fine with me 8)
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My reading is you are confident and comfortable in who and what you are and like everything about it or not that you accept it all as a part of you. I may be misreading this all completely but I think not.
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For GA, it's Kayleigh and she now. It has been 7 years since she started her transition so I am definitely used to it now. Kayleigh and I have a friend who is FTM. We have been friends for about a year and a half. He started his transition when we first met. It has been some time, yet I still have to concentrate on not saying "she". His name is easier, since he changed it when we first met him.
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I/Me, He, It, We.
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My pronouns are cunt/cunts/cuntself.
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:rofl:
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'I' 'He' 'We', 'It', and name. As in 'Lestat is going to his lab now' or 'lestat wants something to eat', 'it ran It's reaction according to plan' 'he did XYZ' 'we had success in my/our experiments' (referring in all cases to use in the first person tense.