INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Adam on November 04, 2010, 01:27:13 PM
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http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45748
What do you guys think about this? At what point should a transgendered person be able to legally change their sex? What about the pregnant transsexual guys mentioned?
In early September, two transsexual men lost an appeal in Western Australia’s Supreme Court to be legally recognised as men. The negative ruling has consequences for other transsexual and transgender cases. The men are considering appealing to a higher body.
Gina Wilson, spokesperson for Organisation Intersex Internationale (OIS), told Green Left Weekly: “The two appellants underwent top surgery [mastectomies] and were on hormone replacement therapy — testosterone. They were living as men and accepted as men by society and friends.
“They wanted cardinal [primary] documents such as birth certificates to reflect their lived gender. They had not undertaken bottom surgery [hysterectomies]. All three judges agreed the two appellants’ lived sex roles were men. However, they decided they didn't have the anatomical requirements to qualify for the male role. The judges decided where the line between a man and woman lies.”
Evidence suggests that hysterectomies to reduce the female body’s sexual characteristics are dangerous.
In a September 9 Gay News Network article, appellant AH said: “As part of our case, we bought forth a large body of evidence regarding the risks associated with hysterectomy surgery including bleeding, incontinence, reduced sexual function and increased risk of other medical conditions including osteoporosis and heart disease.”
Wilson noted: “The judges said they were concerned at the case of transsexual men who came off hormones and had a baby — of which there were two cases in the United States, with transgender female to male Thomas Beattie being the most famous.
“This judgement means there is no longer gender recognition about gender roles.
“It is now about sex bits and parts. AH and HF were capable of having bottom surgery, but they did not want to. They hung onto too many female parts, said the judges.
“For intersex people, our bodies challenge the rigid gender binaries: if intersex people go to court over qualifying as a woman, for the pension at 63 (not 65 as when men are eligible), then this judgement will work against us. It legally qualifies what bits and parts make up a ‘real’ woman.
“We should be outraged at this judgement: it is policing of the human body. This WA judgement is sexist essentialism. But it is our body, our lives — we know if we are woman, man, or neither. If judges, or anyone, are curious, they should just ask.”
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this my only thread that doesn't have a reply :(
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Hadn't heard of that one. Really does open up a can of worms there.
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You mean the pregnant guys ?
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I don't get why it should be on documents anyway what gender you are. Pictures and fingerprints are enough to identify a person, if it is legally necessary.
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Exactly! I completely agree. I don't see why anyone should care what sex/gender someone is anyway. Unless you're my doctor or you wanna fuck me, why does it matter to you? (not you as in you btw :P )
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That is a tough one. This is a case of someone who hasn't completed the transition asking for changes in legal documents. Their case may very well may be a detriment to transexuals as a whole.
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You mean the pregnant guys ?
The whole issue of when to recognise trans people. Hysterectomy alone can't decide the outcome, as lots of females have them and are still females. Same with mastectomies and hormones. It's really hard to put a line in the sand where the call would be made.
I understand the concern about the pension viewpoint, mainly because of the ruling that men have to retire at a later age than women (although that may be looked at sometime). Imagine a man getting a sex change in their mid fifties to try to qualify for early retirement or early pension. Or in the case mentioned, where a woman gets a sex change at pension age, does that person have to pay back the pension because of a false claim?
Hmmm..... You do raise some interesting topics Soph.
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There is a difference in retirement age for men and women in Australia?
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There shouldn't be imo.
Anyway, I think it's about whther you live your life as [whichever sex you are transitioning to].
I mean just because someone doesn't have a penis, if he lives his life as a man and is male in every way but biology, he should be registered as male if anything. But like hyke said, it shouldn't even be documented anyway. it is no one else's business. Unfortunately, society doesn't agree.
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There is a difference in retirement age for men and women in Australia?
Yeah, if you go on a Centrelink old-age pension, women can get it earlier than men. It used to be women aged 60 and men aged 65, but they've shifted the goalposts a bit and are encouraging men atleast to work to 70 and women to 65 before becoming eligible. It comes down to DOB at certain times and when the new Act was passed.
Government superannuation is payable at 55 for both sexes, but that's even being looked into as well.
Thank Christ there aren't these guidelines for DSP.
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can't imagine wanting to do this
http://www.torontosun.com/news/weird/2010/11/04/15972521-wenn-story.html
Thomas Beatie, the world's first transgender man to give birth, is hoping to make history again - by becoming the world's first transgender surrogate.
The 36-year-old and his wife Nancy welcomed their third son in July and now Beatie has plans to get pregnant again - to help couples who can't conceive.
He tells Life & Style magazine, "When I was first approached with the idea, I thought it was crazy. Then I thought about what it means and what having a family means to us. I thought, 'This is a huge deal and I’m capable of it, why not?'
"If I can do this and help make another family fulfill their dream of having a child, then that’s what I want to do."
And if that plan doesn't work out, Beatie, who was a subject of an Oprah Winfrey TV expose, is hoping to have one more kid of his own: "If we don’t find the right family for surrogacy, I think I have one more person inside of me."
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I disagree when it comes to the ugly eejits that don't even look like the sex they've transistioned to. If they can be very convincing, then I don't see why not.
However, I see it as being a bit deceptive too. If they can be legally whatever sex they want, some transexuals may not tell their partners at all about their original sex, especially if said partner wants to reproduce and/or does not like the idea that the person was originally the opposite sex they're not attracted to. You can't force people to change their sexual preferences, after all.
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I think people should be honest with their partners
But you're not really changing their sexual preferences - theyre obviously attracted to you as you are, or they wouldnt be with you. so it's not about their sexual preferences changing - it's about them not being comfortable with their sexual preferences (imo)... which is their problem really.
ie I could say I wouldn't be comfortable being with someone whose past life was x, y or z, but they're not legally required to inform me of everything in their past. I think people SHOULD be honest with each other, but don't see why a sex change should be subject to some kind of legal requirements where other aspects of someone's past aren;t. Dunno if I've explained myself well
Also people who are infertile can choose to hide that from potential partners too
So I agree you should tell your gf/bf. But it's not really a transsexual issue, more an issue of honesty/trust itself
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But you're not really changing their sexual preferences - theyre obviously attracted to you as you are, or they wouldnt be with you.
That only works if the person was okay with being a transexual.
so it's not about their sexual preferences changing - it's about them not being comfortable with their sexual preferences (imo)... which is their problem really.
People should be allowed to be straight though. No problems with people who like trannies, but if you don't find them attracted then I don't see why they need to me. I know you are not explicity saying that, but I do see more and more people being grilled simply because they're not attracted to the same sex and such.
ie I could say I wouldn't be comfortable being with someone whose past life was x, y or z, but they're not legally required to inform me of everything in their past.
If my partner was originally male, she should tell me since as you said yourself: couples need to be honest with each other. Personally I'd accept that and move on, but some people won't. I don't see it as insecurity unless the person reacted really badly to it.
Also people who are infertile can choose to hide that from potential partners too
I also find that deceptive. Same with STDs, I'd rather would know if my partner had something that could harm me.
So I agree you should tell your gf/bf. But it's not really a transsexual issue, more an issue of honesty/trust itself
My point was more honesty/trust too.
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I pretty much agree. I'm not sure about the straight thing though - because they are still straight (or whatever it is they are). I mean they ARE attracted to that person, whether that person is male, female, previously male or previously female. I have no problem with people not being attracted to trans people etc - I am only attracted to feminine women myself so it's unlikely I would have a relationship with a transsexual unless she passed very well.
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This guy was rejected and told he should use the women's bathroom lol. I mean wtf :screwy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ILaG4foNbU
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so what does everyone think about the bathroom issue? Does it infringe on other people's rights to allow trans people to use the correct bathroom?
Found this in the news today:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/nov/10110506.html
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so what does everyone think about the bathroom issue? Does it infringe on other people's rights to allow trans people to use the correct bathroom?
Found this in the news today:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/nov/10110506.html
I think in general it's better for people to use the bathroom of the gender they appear to be, but if large communal bathrooms are the only ones available, then I think a preop transgender male might be better off using the female bathrooms because often there is so little privacy in large male bathrooms and a preop trans male isn't going to be able to make use of the urinals.
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But what would you think if you saw a man come into the women's bathroom while you were in therE?
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But what would you think if you saw a man come into the women's bathroom while you were in therE?
If he were far enough into the transition to have been on hormones for awhile, and he looked relatively female,
I probably wouldn't think twice. On the other hand, if he still looked male, I'd probably say, "This is the ladies' room!" :o
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I mean to callaway saying a pre-op trans guy could use the womens bathroom. I dont think many women would be happy with that. And it would be pretty awkward for the guy himself
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I mean to callaway saying a pre-op trans guy could use the womens bathroom. I dont think many women would be happy with that. And it would be pretty awkward for the guy himself
Again, if he were pre-op but looked female, I probably wouldn't take any notice of him.
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But many pre-op transguys don't look female
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I mean to callaway saying a pre-op trans guy could use the womens bathroom. I dont think many women would be happy with that. And it would be pretty awkward for the guy himself
There are lots of women with PCOS (for example) who dress in trousers and shirts from the men's department, so I would probably assume it was a masculine looking woman, if I bothered to give it that much thought. I'm not about to ask him or her to drop their trousers at the bathroom door so I can have a look at the equipment.
:laugh:
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But many pre-op transguys don't look female
I suppose not, even after the hormones. I dunno then. I suppose I'd say "This is the ladies' room," and if the guy didn't leave,
I might go looking for security personnel, thinking it was a rapist looking for prey, especially if he seemed at all threatening.
Except that now you've given me another scenario to consider. :chin:
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That's my point. It's not a good idea for a trans gay to use a woman's bathroom unless he doesnt pass at all.
And in some cases it would be dangerous for the opposite - a transwoman to use a men's bathroom
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That's my point. It's not a good idea for a trans gay to use a woman's bathroom unless he doesnt pass at all.
And in some cases it would be dangerous for the opposite - a transwoman to use a men's bathroom
The times that I do see a public bathroom, I often see men helping little daughters in the woman's bathroom, or, women who need to go urgently, heading for the men's room. The waiting time always is a lot shorter there.
So far, I have not seen anyone react badly on that.
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I don't think i've ever seen a man go in a woman'w bathroom before. I don't go in public toilets though.
Which I'm glad about. I haven't been in a public toilet for years so it's not a problem for me. I don't look like a man though so could go in women's toilets fine anyway, but in the future I might not be able to.
From what I've read online, it's easier for trans guys to just go in mens toilets because men are less likely to pay attention
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I usually go to the men's loos coz the queues for the ladies are too long and I'm not arsed to wait.
Once a man thought he was accidentally in the wrong loo when he saw me come out of the cubicle :laugh:
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I don't think i've ever seen a man go in a woman'w bathroom before. I don't go in public toilets though.
Which I'm glad about. I haven't been in a public toilet for years so it's not a problem for me. I don't look like a man though so could go in women's toilets fine anyway, but in the future I might not be able to.
From what I've read online, it's easier for trans guys to just go in mens toilets because men are less likely to pay attention
I guess you might be right about that, particularly if the stalls have doors, like they do in ladies' rooms. Of course a pre op trans guy can't use the urinals, but I think there's usually at least one toilet.
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Some pre op trans guys can use urinals
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Some pre op trans guys can use urinals
How, with one of those little pee funnels?
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Some pre op trans guys can use urinals
How, with one of those little pee funnels?
I've heard of those! I think the brand name is "You Go Girl"! I'm not even making that up! :2thumbsup:
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Some pre op trans guys can use urinals
How, with one of those little pee funnels?
I've heard of those! I think the brand name is "You Go Girl"! I'm not even making that up! :2thumbsup:
Here they are:
http://www.go-girl.com/
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is this good or bad?
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/11/15/16153821.html#/news/canada/2010/11/15/pf-16153826.html
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Yes, they want to be that gender and it's thier right. :/
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I agree that it is a right, but it's not really a case of wanting to be that gender
But yeah you are right that it's no one else's business anyway
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Bathroom segregation is kind of pretentious anyway. It doesn't work. If it's a guard against perversion, where are homosexual people supposed to go? Cubicles are private enough anyway, all you need is a room of cubicles. Change rooms ought to be full of cubicles to change in anyway because no one really wants to be naked in front of strangers.
I do think there should be some testing of people who want to change their sex though and make sure they're doing it for the right reasons. But someone living full time in one gender should be allowed to have documents marked that way. But it is kind of true that gender/sex is a mostly useless detail.
And in terms of relationships? I like Courage Wolf's advice of "If it's pretty, fuck it, there is no gay". Fair enough not being with someone who you're not attracted to, but if you're a straight guy and you're attracted to something that looks and acts like a girl, minor details don't matter. The autohomophobic idea of liking a transgirl being gay is ridiculous. People who fuck blow-up dolls usually aren't sexually attracted to inflatable objects are they?
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People who fuck blow-up dolls usually aren't sexually attracted to inflatable objects are they?
Why are you asking us? I got no idea and I doubt anyone else does here, or was that rhetorical.
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I do think there should be some testing of people who want to change their sex though and make sure they're doing it for the right reasons. ?
I think that if a person wants to be legally recognized as a different gender, they should document and live as the other gender for at least 3 months or something. Just so they are sure and don't regret it later, and also so it doesn't clog the court system up with flaky people.
I am online friends with a 20 year old guy that is basically a lesbian trans. He wants to transition but can't - no one would support him. He wants to come and live with me. heh. I must hear " I want boobs so fucking bad" at least 10 times when I talk to him. He is still him, though, wants to be called he. Everyone is different I guess. He makes a very lovely girl.
People who fuck blow-up dolls usually aren't sexually attracted to inflatable objects are they?
uh, actually sometimes they are. Being attracted to dolls is not unheard of *cough*
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If you look at my use of language I included for people that are. But I'm saying that plenty of people don't have a fetish for inflatable things.
Obviously people need to be less rigid about gender boundaries. And that guy could easily just get illegal hormone if all he wants to do is be a trap.
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what do you mean "if all he wants to do is be a trap".
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Lol~ Well if he wants male pronouns I'm guessing he just wants to look like a girl or something?
Trap is a term to describe boys that look like girls. It's just some kind of slang?
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I know what a trap is.
He is using male pronouns because he is only 20 years old and still unsure about actually transitioning.
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I was using it in a playful way, so you know...
But I know those types of people. Transitioning is hard and requires you to be strong and persevere. I don't know their situation but a lot of people are like that, sometimes it's just that they need to 'grow some ovaries' and actually get it over with.
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Single topic posters are :viking:
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I think that if a person wants to be legally recognized as a different gender, they should document and live as the other gender for at least 3 months or something. Just so they are sure and don't regret it later, and also so it doesn't clog the court system up with flaky people.
I agree with that really, and over here you do have to live as that gender for a certain amount of time first. But at the same time, how easy is it to do tat without the help of hormones? Obviously some people can "pass" fine without, but most can't. So how can they live as a woman full time if they're still 100% physically male
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I don't really mean that they have to physically be the other gender, just live like it. For instance, dressing the part.
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I know but how easy is that if they just look like a man in drag? Can they really use the women's bathrooms without fear for three months for example?
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Single topic posters are :viking:
But I like the color violet more. And knights are boring. I'd rather be some demonic magician with shadow tentacles and such.
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I know but how easy is that if they just look like a man in drag? Can they really use the women's bathrooms without fear for three months for example?
At work, not without coming out first I guess. For the rest, I have no idea how often people go to public bathrooms. The times I have to go there, I do see people opting for the quickest possibility a lot btw. Most often women opting for the men's room, but have seen it happen the other way around too. Never saw someone make a fuss.
Sports dressing rooms would be a lot harder I think. Would require some coming out and a single room in the beginning in most situations.
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I know but how easy is that if they just look like a man in drag? Can they really use the women's bathrooms without fear for three months for example?
I agree it must be really hard. I can't even imagine how hard it is. But I dont think that has anything to do with the fact if they are legally recognized or not.. I mean, you can take the hormones before or after that. I do agree that having the "documentation" of being legally recognized really means a lot and is very important, and may even change a bigots mind.
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I just think it would be very hard for me to use either public toilet. I dunno how different things are where you are hyke, but here I would be surprised to see a woman use a man's bathroom (just regular public toilets I mean like at university or mcdonalds or wherever, not a sports event that's really packed out or a club where everyones drunk) and I'd be VERY surprised to see a man use a woman's bathroom
I'd be worried about getting beaten up tbh. And obviously I wouldn't use women's bathrooms coz I'd be worried about making THEM feel uncomfortable. Either way it's not cool
I guess that's one good thing about me havinbg ocd - I don't have to worry about which public toilet to use :laugh:
The main thing that makes people think I'm a girl is my girly voice. If I don't talk then it's hit and miss whether people will see me as male or female. Depends on a lot of things
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I honestly think you look like a boy, but younger than your age. You'll like that when you're older.
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haha yeah that's what I keep telling myself - "it's cool; it'll be GOOD when you're 35" :laugh:
Right now it just sucks cock
I even got asked if I was old enough to buy a game that was a 15 the other day
A fucking 15! lol
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although to be fair, I do feel about 14/15 in my head really. And I kinda missed out on being a proper teenager, so in some ways I wish I was
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Some men just naturally start to look like women as they get older. Maybe the reverse is true also?
(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/10/23-End/DenisLeary.jpg)
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Can't you train your voice to be more guyish?
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I think you can but tbh I have so many problems with my voice already, because of years of hardly talking from social anxiety, that I can't be bothered. If I was never planning on hormones etc then I would, but I'm hoping hormones will fix it.
I know that sounds lazy, but I have so much other shit to sort out right now, spending ages trying to change my voice when it's gonna have little effect and hopefully be redundant soon, just isn't worth it I guess
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I just think it would be very hard for me to use either public toilet. I dunno how different things are where you are hyke, but here I would be surprised to see a woman use a man's bathroom (just regular public toilets I mean like at university or mcdonalds or wherever, not a sports event that's really packed out or a club where everyones drunk) and I'd be VERY surprised to see a man use a woman's bathroom
I'd be worried about getting beaten up tbh. And obviously I wouldn't use women's bathrooms coz I'd be worried about making THEM feel uncomfortable. Either way it's not cool
I guess that's one good thing about me havinbg ocd - I don't have to worry about which public toilet to use :laugh:
The main thing that makes people think I'm a girl is my girly voice. If I don't talk then it's hit and miss whether people will see me as male or female. Depends on a lot of things
LOL, my voice made people guess very often that I was a boy or a man. Did change a bit after speech therapy. I did not get that for sounding male btw.
I think you can but tbh I have so many problems with my voice already, because of years of hardly talking from social anxiety, that I can't be bothered. If I was never planning on hormones etc then I would, but I'm hoping hormones will fix it.
I know that sounds lazy, but I have so much other shit to sort out right now, spending ages trying to change my voice when it's gonna have little effect and hopefully be redundant soon, just isn't worth it I guess
If your social anxiety would get better, and I think hormone therapy would help there, then some speech therapy might help to get your voice bolder and less hesitant. That will make it more masculine right away. When you listen to female voices they often sound more insecure and more questioning in tone. Not in content, but in tone. It is not only timbre people notice. It's the whole intonation coming with it.
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Some men just naturally start to look like women as they get older. Maybe the reverse is true also?
(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/10/23-End/DenisLeary.jpg)
Yes, the reverse is also true. And not only for humans. Some female ducks get partly male duck feathers after a certain age.
But to wait for that to happen would take way too long. That transition starts slowly after menopauze, and it is most often a real slow process. Soph might have to wait over 50 years for that to have any visible effect.
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Some men just naturally start to look like women as they get older. Maybe the reverse is true also?
(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/10/23-End/DenisLeary.jpg)
Yes, the reverse is also true. And not only for humans. Some female ducks get partly male duck feathers after a certain age.
But to wait for that to happen would take way too long. That transition starts slowly after menopauze, and it is most often a real slow process. Soph might have to wait over 50 years for that to have any visible effect.
I hope Soph never ever grows feathers :laugh:
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Some men just naturally start to look like women as they get older. Maybe the reverse is true also?
(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/10/23-End/DenisLeary.jpg)
Yes, the reverse is also true. And not only for humans. Some female ducks get partly male duck feathers after a certain age.
But to wait for that to happen would take way too long. That transition starts slowly after menopauze, and it is most often a real slow process. Soph might have to wait over 50 years for that to have any visible effect.
I hope Soph never ever grows feathers :laugh:
:rofl:
Now that would be a thrill for Jess................
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I have to go and remove her from the bird's room now actually
she's so fucking naughty :facepalm2:
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I have to go and remove her from the bird's room now actually
she's so fucking naughty :facepalm2:
She likes the birds as much as you do then. :orly:
(Yes that is a double entendre)