INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Calandale on November 07, 2007, 06:46:25 PM
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November and 'Socialist General' Schleicher
The November 6, 1932 elections yielded 33.1% for the Nazis[4]: it dropped 2 million voters. Franz von Papen stepped down, and was succeeded by General von Schleicher as Reichskanzler on December 3. The political army officer Schleicher, had developed in atmosphere of semi-obscurity and intrigue that encompassed the Republican military policy. He had for years been in the camp of those supporting the Conservative counter-revolution. Schleicher's bold and unsuccessful plan was to build a majority in the Reichstag by uniting the Trade Unionist left wings in the various parties, including that of the Nazis led by Gregor Strasser. This did not prove successful either.
In this brief Presidential Dictatatorship entr'acte, Schleicher took the role of 'Socialist General', and entered into relations with the Christian Trade Unions, the Left Nazis, and even with the Social Democrats. Schleicher's plan was for a sort of Labour Government under his Generalship. It was an utterly un-workable idea as the Reichswehr officers were hardly prepared to follow Schleicher on this path, and the working class had a natural distrust of their future allies. Equally, Schleicher aroused hatred amongst the great capitalists and landowners by these plans. The SPD and KPD could have achieved success building on a Berlin transport strike.
Hitler learned from von Papen that the general had no authority to abolish the Reichstag parliament, whereas any majority of seats did. The cabinet (under a previous interpretation of Article 48) ruled without a sitting Reichstag, which could vote only for its own dissolution. Hitler also learned that all past crippling Nazi debts were to be relieved by German big business.
On January 22, Hitler's efforts to persuade Oskar von Hindenburg (the President's son) included threats to bring criminal charges over estate taxation irregularities at the President's Neudeck estate (although 5000 extra acres were soon allotted to Hindenburg's property). Out maneuvered by von Papen and Hitler on plans for the new cabinet, and having lost Hindenburg's confidence, Schleicher asked for new elections. On January 28 von Papen described Hitler to Paul von Hindenburg as only a minority part of an alternative, von Papen-arranged government. The four great political movements, the SPD, KPD, Centre, and the Nazis were in opposition. If this continued there was real danger that the Centre and Nazi parties would radicalize further, and that in the end a vast united national bolshevist front would be formed against the ruling system.
On 29 January Hitler and von Papen thwarted a last-minute threat of an officially-sanctioned Reichswehr takeover, and on 30 January 1933 Hindenburg accepted the new Papen-Nationalist-Hitler coalition with the Nazis holding only three of eleven Cabinet seats. Later that day, the first cabinet meeting was attended by only two political parties, representing a minority in the Reichstag: The Nazis and the DNVP led by Alfred Hugenberg (196 + 52 seats). Eyeing the Catholic Centre Party's 70 (+ 20 BVP) seats, Hitler refused their leader's demands for constitutional "concessions" (amounting to protection) and planned for dissolution of the Reichstag.
Hindenburg, despite his misgivings about the Nazis' goals and about Hitler as a person, reluctantly agreed to Papen's theory that, with Nazi popular support on the wane, Hitler could now be controlled as chancellor. The date dubbed Machtergreifung (seizure of power) by the Nazi propaganda is commonly seen as the beginning of Nazi Germany.
Seems an apropos thing to consider,
at this point.
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Calandale, this is an internet message board, not the Third Reich.
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The model holds. Some people simply aren't
capable of handling democracy.
Voting to dissolve our decision making
body, and replace it with an authoritarian
rule is the same.
I'm not too shocked though.
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Heil, er, me. :evillaugh:
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my first piece of coursework last year was partly on the weimar republic
well it was nazi germany really, but part of it focused on the weimar republic
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Heil, er, me. :evillaugh:
:finger: The official salute.
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More like the Weiner Republic :penis:
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Heil, er, me. :evillaugh:
:LMAO:
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Anyhow, I put this in here, not just because of the
parallel, but in the hopes that some of our history
lovers would jump into a discussion of the fall itself.
Perhaps there are more fun parallels.
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I took German history in collage but it was so long ago
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It's amazing the amount of power that Hitler
managed, when he only pulled 30% of the
vote. The decision was essentially made without
the biggest party even at the table.
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I didn't pay attention in my WWII lecture today. :(
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They were desperate looking for anyone to solve their problems
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I didn't pay attention in my WWII lecture today. :(
Watch the History channel something on WWII is always on
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lol That's true. Whenever I look through the history channels I can guarantee there'll be something on Hitler/WWII
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They were desperate looking for anyone to solve their problems
Yeah. But, ridiculous tactics won the day.
I guess one can take something from that.
No wonder he thought he could take Russia.
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The model holds. Some people simply aren't
capable of handling democracy.
Voting to dissolve our decision making
body, and replace it with an authoritarian
rule is the same.
I didn't realize we'd voted to become a tyranny.
When did this happen?
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It's an issue of the WC.
Most sites really are tyrannies.
We have been trying to run
ourselves. Most members who
wanted to join the body, didn't
have the stomach to face what is
involved in democracy.
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Heil, er, me. :evillaugh:
:laugh:
are you going to grow a dinky little moustache, then?
:evillaugh:
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It's an issue of the WC.
Most sites really are tyrannies.
We have been trying to run
ourselves. Most members who
wanted to join the body, didn't
have the stomach to face what is
involved in democracy.
:bssign:
Actually, most of realised that the site shouldn't have to be about running the site alone because it's no fun.
We've had very, very few rules in the past, so at one point, a few months ago, we (in this case, the ruling axis of evil) wanted to try direct democracy by introducing a world council for the everyday decision-making process. We compared the function to a town hall meeting, an inclusive setting where everyone even remotely interested in the site could have their say.
What happened instead was a mess where everything was put to vote, all the time. The town hall meetings needed to be more exclusive, impeachment procedures had to be created, Intensity supposedly required a constitution, polls were started out of spite, etc, etc, etc.
And of course, every poll was followed by endless discussions spreading all over the board, people were attacked, accusations were made, and if anyone pointed out that the whole thing was becoming boring or tedious or whatever, that, of course, was an attack on democracy itself.
And eventually Dunc, the Jolly Despot, started a vote to end the mess. *I* think it's to get some of the fun back. And to me it looks like the membership agrees.
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well said. :plus:
:clap:
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Actually, most of realised that the site shouldn't have to be about running the site alone because it's no fun.
TO most, perhaps. Some were enjoying.
What happened instead was a mess where everything was put to vote, all the time.
Because we didn't bother trying to get things right,
at the start. As I tried to push for.
The town hall meetings needed to be more exclusive,
Don't know why this happened. Certainly not my doing.
impeachment procedures had to be created,
In order to PROTECT people from unreasonable impeachment,
as was attempted, and would have succeeded.
Intensity supposedly required a constitution,
Everything has one. Even a despotic government.
polls were started out of spite, etc, etc, etc.
A method of underlining what was going wrong.
And of course, every poll was followed by endless discussions spreading all over the board, people were attacked, accusations were made, and if anyone pointed out that the whole thing was becoming boring or tedious or whatever, that, of course, was an attack on democracy itself.
Look, I agree that the ramifications weren't at all
good for the site. We lost several members (though
not ones that most of y'all miss) due to being stymied
in the WC. Still, those without the strength to handle
democracy shouldn't try.
And eventually Dunc, the Jolly Despot, started a vote to end the mess. *I* think it's to get some of the fun back. And to me it looks like the membership agrees.
Just as the 3rd Reich was started.
Paying attention is just too tough for
those without the resilience to handle
democracy.
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:dream:
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I saw this today and could help but think of you cal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHOn093r-Ak
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvZnTFpip0
:laugh:
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:LMAO:
Seriously, though, Cal, you may have enjoyed it but the fact appears to be that most members didn't. It isn't about democracy, it's about having fun. It really is just a message board.
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http://www.youtube.com/v/ml7V7LvSi0M&rel=1
.
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I don't see your point but I'm assuming you have one.
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:LMAO:
Seriously, though, Cal, you may have enjoyed it but the fact appears to be that most members didn't. It isn't about democracy, it's about having fun. It really is just a message board.
I know. I just wish that those who didn't enjoy
could have let those who did continue to have
fun. Funny thing is, it's got nothing to do with
power. And no harm came out of it, except for
the fiat rule, which I don't think would have had
a chance in hell of passing, if the malcontents hadn't
voted for it. Pretty much the same people who are
for destroying the WC again.
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I don't see your point but I'm assuming you have one.
My clip was of Dildano, the leader of the revolutionaries devoted to the overthrow of The Great Tyrant in the movie Barbarella. It wouldn't make much sense to those who'd never seen the movie, but I hoped that a few might have.
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:LMAO:
Seriously, though, Cal, you may have enjoyed it but the fact appears to be that most members didn't. It isn't about democracy, it's about having fun. It really is just a message board.
I know. I just wish that those who didn't enjoy
could have let those who did continue to have
fun. Funny thing is, it's got nothing to do with
power. And no harm came out of it, except for
the fiat rule, which I don't think would have had
a chance in hell of passing, if the malcontents hadn't
voted for it. Pretty much the same people who are
for destroying the WC again.
It might have been your idea of fun but I think that it had everything to do with the idea of power to you, Calandale.
If the people who did not like the fact that you were trying to run the World Council continued to just let you do as you wished, then all the polls you started would have continued to pass with very few votes, you would have continued to declare those polls a mandate for still more rules, and very soon Intensity² would have been more like all the other message boards than it was allowed to be the very thing that made it so different.
I don't agree that no harm came out of it.
Maybe most people didn't want to vote for a new rule every day, or else have that new rule voted into "law" by default. Maybe they did not like the idea of you threatening them if they did not vote the way that you wanted them to vote in the polls that you started. Maybe they didn't like the way you would snipe all over the board if anything was not going the way that you wanted it to go: For example, the way you went on and on about the stupid fiat rule you started out of spite; using it to justify Hadron making you an administrator and then when he was called on it and he promised not to make anyone an administrator again, Hadron making Scrapheap an administrator; you actually saying that Hadron deserved a medal for deliberately doing the wrong things; as well as your Robespierre screen name, avatar, caption, and signature.
Maximilien Robespierre
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Robespierre.jpg/192px-Robespierre.jpg)
The king must die so that the country can live.
Whom exactly do you propose killing here? Dunc? Odeon?
::)
Maximilien François Marie Odenthalius Isidore de Robespierre; 6 May 1758 – 28 July 1794) is one of the best-known leaders of the French Revolution. He studied at College of Louis-le-Grand in Paris and became a lawyer. His supporters called him "The Incorruptible". He was an influential member of the Committee of Public Safety and was instrumental in the period of the Revolution commonly known as the Reign of Terror that ended with his arrest and execution in 1794.
Are you comparing yourself with Robespierre? Do you really think that you are "The Incorruptible"?
Are you going to tell the members of Intensity² that you had no idea that Hadron was planning to make you an administrator when you had not been elected to the job? It would have made absolutely no sense for Hadron to make you an administrator without you having some idea what he was planning.
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It might have been your idea of fun but I think that it had everything to do with the idea of power to you, Calandale.
Power? Nah. I'm too lazy to enjoy such. :laugh:
If the people who did not like the fact that you were trying to run the World Council continued to just let you do as you wished, then all the polls you started would have continued to pass with very few votes, you would have continued to declare those polls a mandate for still more rules, and very soon Intensity² would have been more like all the other message boards than it was allowed to be the very thing that made it so different.
I would have been likely to try and find
some divisive issue with those who did
enjoy. The point is the debate and the
process, more than some particular result.
I, for one, would have been bored to not
caring, if everyone agreed with me.
And, PROCESS is what all the polls were about,
in the end. They weren't touching on things
which effected what ordinary members could do.
That would be against the principle of the site,
and actually amount to treason, in my view.
I don't agree that no harm came out of it.
Harm did come. People took it far to seriously,
and allowed a GAME to color their feelings about
one another. Bad idea. I've seen it happen before
though.
Maybe they didn't like the way you would snipe all over the board if anything was not going the way that you wanted it to go: For example, the way you went on and on about the stupid fiat rule you started out of spite; using it to justify Hadron making you an administrator and then when he was called on it and he promised not to make anyone an administrator again, Hadron making Scrapheap an administrator;
This 'sniping' was an attempt to explain what was
going on, when people started whining about the
actions that Hadron was taking. All within our rules.
You should take responsibility for voting FOR that
crap. I was just making a point about you. One you
essentially proved by voting in favor.
you actually saying that Hadron deserved a medal for deliberately doing the wrong things;
He SHOULD have just killed the rule,
under the rule, as Dunc did. But, he
did underline the problem with it, quite
clearly, allowing others to perhaps learn.
Too bad you haven't.
as well as your Robespierre screen name, avatar, caption, and signature.
Robespierre was a bloody tyrant. This is me poking fun
at the perception that some have of me. Not only political
lessons, but humor seems wasted on you.
Whom exactly do you propose killing here? Dunc? Odeon?
::)
Down with all tyrants! Seriously, that was the closest
to an apropos quote that I could find. Pity is treason
is nice too, but didn't refer to the situation as well.
Are you comparing yourself with Robespierre?
In jest. See above.
Do you really think that you are "The Incorruptible"?
I am to corrupt to be corrupted.
Are you going to tell the members of Intensity² that you had no idea that Hadron was planning to make you an administrator when you had not been elected to the job? It would have made absolutely no sense for Hadron to make you an administrator without you having some idea what he was planning.
As I told you, I was aware, but did not urge.
He floated the idea, soon before he did it, and
I told him that I'd like to see the panel, but couldn't
expect him to do so. However, no matter what, I see
no inherent corruption HAD I asked him to - since 'twas
within the rules, it was the same as asking you to change
my custom tag.
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I think that asking someone to change your custom title is very different from asking them to make you an administrator when you were not voted in, Calandale.
Since you are an administrator now, I'm sorry that you cannot see the difference.
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The is only one dictator (according to some) that is incorruptible, and that's Pyotr Alexeyevich Romanov!
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I think that asking someone to change your custom title is very different from asking them to make you an administrator when you were not voted in, Calandale.
Since you are an administrator now, I'm sorry that you cannot see the difference.
Oh, there is a difference NOW. There wasn't at that point.
Still, I was hesitant about the idea that he put forth, which
means that, like pulling members who don't visit here much
for voting, something tasted bad about it.
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I should be revising this :zombiefuck:
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I should be revising this :zombiefuck:
Did your Negroidic Pimp Daddy give you some low-grade crack??
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No but I heard from him that you have a very nice and tight arse. Need to work on your sucking skills though :-\
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No but I heard from him that you have a very nice and tight arse. Need to work on your sucking skills though :-\
Projecting again I see. ::)
Just don't leave any teeth marks on my dick baby. :eyebrows:
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I should be revising this :zombiefuck:
Flamebaiting again, I see.
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Not really. My exam is on Germany.
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It seems to be the same as a simply corrupt government ‘on steroids’ for lack of a better term.[reffering to the Nazi dynasty.]
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Er, do you have an actual point?
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(http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/idiot.jpg)
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:thumbdn: :finger:
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pappy I must inquire...why are you bumping old as heck threads? :zombiefuck:
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Boredom. I see the threads being looked at by google bots so I look at the thread and if it's something I remember or is interesting, I comment on it.