INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Calandale on April 16, 2007, 01:05:50 AM
-
Moving this here to avoid further clutter of the administrative board
That being some sort of fantasy that you have?
Never happened on any scale, never will, unless
humanity itself changes.
Would you then propose that no one ought to make an attempt at a fair system because perfection is impossible?
I don't know. Part of me desires that it all be perfect or it just doesn't matter. This isn't really the issue that was being
discussed, but it is an interesting one. Overall, that view is pure foolishness. But there is definitely something fairly strong
inside me that cries out for perfection, and is unwilling to accept less. Childish? Probably. But it may just be more noble not
to accept some kind of pitiful compromise solution to things. I guess it's why I favor death over trying to find some pathetic
existence that I can carve out for myself any longer.
-
Please don't talk like this!
I thought you were a happy person Cal?!
You are a very funny person and should congratulate yourself for that
- if you can make people laugh you have a gift
I think very much the same way in terms of either all good or all bad
I find it hard to appreciate grey areas
I put people and events in the 'good' or 'bad' category, which I know is stupid, but it can be seen as a way
of protecting yourself from people who have given you a problem in the past
ie if a person exhibits a type of behaviour I dont like, I tend to think 'Oh this is that type of person, don't like them!'
And if you maintain an internal database of people types like I do, you'd be amazed at how useful this can be as one type of behaviour is very often a predictor of a whole host of others, so you save yourself a lot of trouble
Please tell me why you feel so low?
-
Happy? You must have seen almost nothing of me then.
I am a miserable wreck. Was such when young, spent
a significant portion of my life in idyllic bliss, ignoring all
that was evil, but now I'm back to my misery - but this
time a hell of a lot older, and with higher standards which
simply can't be met.
-
I'm sorry to hear that
I think perfectionism can be a good thing in that it can make you focus on inconsequential detail to the extent
that you aren't bothered about the 'big stuff'
For example, if I go to the supermarket and have to pick a lemon it can take ages as I have to pick the 'best' one
If it's a book it must be the least marked one - to buy a book with a fold on the cover would really bother me
Often after I've tried to find the 'most perfect' item and got home I discover a flaw and this really gets to me!
But while all this faffing is going on, I'm not worrying about the big issues like death, global warming, crime etc - in fact while global warming is obviously worrying I just cannot get that worked up about it and wonder if other people are really worried/caring about it either or are they pretending to be for effect/because everyone else is
btw I do try and be 'green' etc, I just don't 'care' on a day to day basis about global warming
Whatever, it's a big issue that is essentially out of my hands/not controllable by me so it ceases to worry me
So in this way I see AS/perfectionism as protective as it takes the mind off worrying about major stuff
The problem is when the perfectionism is turned onto the self, with constant rumination on negative stuff
I have recently read a book called 'Taming Your Gremlin', which I can't recommend highly enough as a way of learning how to dismiss the negative stuff from your mind
-
Ah, but it's the major stuff that I insist upon perfection for.
If this world cannot be what I wish it to be, I would rather
destroy it. Unfortunately, I haven't quite figured out how
to do this. Even when very happily married, these basic
life tenants held for me. I just was less concerned with the
absolute need to destroy.
As to the small stuff, yeah, sometimes I'm a perfectionist too.
But, it's because I know that I'm not happy with less than the
best, and will choose utter misery over some half decent thing.
-
Hmmm
I find this hard to relate to
Can you give me an example of something 'big' that you feel isn't prefect enough?
-
Existence.
-
But existence, by it's very nature can never be perfect
Surely you can see that is only logical?
It's far too random and chaotic
Have you read 'The Road Less Travelled' by M Scott Peck?
Another book I'd recommend
I think a major mistake people make is in expecting life to:-
a) be easy
b) be fair
c) go their way all the time
d) make them happy
Happiness/contentment comes from accepting life as it is and appreciating the good stuff when it does come along
ie it is an 'inside' job
-
Try breaking Existence down into stuff you have control over and stuff you don't
Then jettison the stuff you have no control over from your mind - why worry about what you can't change?
Stuff you can control - you can only do your best and that should be enough
To continually aim for perfection is self-defeating
-
Nothing to do with my personal life (though the general belief holds true
there as well). I just don't see the point of a world which is not perfect
nothingness.
My life was good, easy, and damn near perfect, at one point. That made
it much easier not to get upset by things, but it never meant that I saw
this existence as better than the lack. I just allowed myself to be seduced by
comfort and love. Well, now I'm pretty certain that I won't have that opportunity
again. It was part of a bargain that I made, but I didn't really realize that I would
have to suffer for it. I assumed that my deal was forever.
-
The philosopher Schopenhauer is very interesting on existence
He says how can people possibly think life is meant to make them happy?
We are here to mate and die and that's it
Happiness is a random by-product, not the Holy Grail of life at all
I don't adhere to this idea totally but find it very useful for putting bad experiences into perspective
-
Try breaking Existence down into stuff you have control over and stuff you don't
You're, of course, right. Unfortunately, I've never had the guts/force of will or whatever
to end what little bit of reality that I am. So, I'm forced to face existence, and try and
figure out how to end perfectly.
The philosopher Schopenhauer is very interesting on existence
He says how can people possibly think life is meant to make them happy?
We are here to mate and die and that's it
Happiness is a random by-product, not the Holy Grail of life at all
Eh, if that's all there is to it, I'd become an Epicurean, and fight against it.
I think that there's more, a perfect timeless nothingness.
-
(Hope you don't think im being patronising btw)
Expectign anythign to be 'forever' is also a fallacy
Another philospher recomends keeping the idea that good fortune can suddently change/things could go wrong
to mind, so that when bad fortune occurs you are more prepared for it
I used to think 'An atomic bomb could drop...now' as a way of acknowledgign the possiblilty
And I will sometimes think 'At this moment people are actually being murdered'
I see no reason whatsoever why you can't find comfort and love again if you keep looking
-
I also don't understand how 'nothingness' can be a good thing
Nothingness is nothing!
-
Nothing is better than the best thing.
-
Explain how
-
It seems a truism. How could anything be better than the
best?
Ah, I'm too tired for this.
-
Ok
-
My policy in life is that personal happiness is the most important thing. And I don't let anyone influence this belief. Now you aren't me. You might value something more than your own happiness, and you may be willing to let others decide how you should feel. But i think that if in order to be happy you need to kill yourself, I wont begrudge you that decision, and I wont think any less of you. But I will miss you.
-
I don't think it's healthy at all to be advocating suicide as an option
The conversation should be being steered well clear of that topic imo
-
I disagree, but i won't beleaguer my point. However I am not advocating suicide, I am advocating the right to freedom of choice, and the pursuit of happiness. I am just not condemning suicide.
-
I understand your point and agree it's a valid one, I just don't think it's a good idea to be talking about
it with a depressed person
-
Yes, but I think that is because you believe that living is more important than happiness, and I don't.
-
We're trying to listen and where possible, help Cal here though
And as a person who has suffered depression throughout their life I know that discussion of certain negative
topics is not a good idea
-
I know, but I believe happiness is more important than life, so with that in mind, mentioning the above is both a good idea and helpful.
-
Well I'm saying in the strongest possible terms that it's not
-
I guess I lied about not beleaguering my point.
-
It's like say the music of Radiohead - that stuff scares me as it's so f-ign depressing
It's good, but I know that listening to it will make me feel things are hopless and nihilistic - ie it takes you to an unhealthy place
-
It is a good thing youre not the one I am reminding of the validity of the option of suicide.
-
How can you possibly know how any advice you give to people might be interpreted or used?
Therefore isn't it a good idea to be as responsible when giving that advice as possible?
-
Not when I am advocating somebody to do what they want to. They are either going to do what they want to, or do what somebody else wants them to, and it doesn't matter what he chooses to do because no matter what he is going to be doing what he wants.
-
Some people are more suggestible than others
What about that case of the bloke in the chat room who was encouraged to commit suicide by other people in
there and he went ahead and did it
That is a perfect example
-
Unless somebody forces him to do something, and he doesn't want them to, it is impossible for him to do anything but what he wants. So regardless of how he interprets or uses my advice, he is going to follow it anyway.
-
How can you possibly know how any advice you give to people might be interpreted or used?
Therefore isn't it a good idea to be as responsible when giving that advice as possible?
the same thing can be said about the advice that you are giving.
some depressed people might think, if just one more person blows sunshine up my ass today, or someone feeds me one more line of 'hang in there' it's going to be alright, i'll go postal.
some people need to be validated in the point that what they are feeling is not exclusive to them. others share the pain and have these same thoughts.
then they realize that, ah hell, as long as they are't quiting....
-
some depressed people might think, if just one more person blows sunshine up my ass today, or someone feeds me one more line of 'hang in there' it's going to be alright, i'll go postal.
"blows sunshine up my ass"
I love it. :clap:
-
Well pardon me for offering practical advice that has worked for me ::)
I have already stated I'm not good at empathy
There's always a majority doing that kind of 'I feel your pain but am not going to do anything as practical as
offer any advice cos it'll alienate other people and make me look too annoyingly positive' anyway so why queue up to just say the same thing in a different way?
I prefer to think of the actual person than my coolness/popularity quotient which is where I diverge from the majority of people on discussion forums
-
It's far easier to scoff than be genuine imo
-
Well pardon me for offering practical advice that has worked for me ::)
I have already stated I'm not good at empathy
There's always a majority doing that kind of 'I feel your pain but am not going to do anything as practical as
offer any advice cos it'll alienate other people and make me look too annoyingly positive' anyway so why queue up to just say the same thing in a different way?
I prefer to think of the actual person than my coolness/popularity quotient which is where I diverge from the majority of people on discussion forums
i just know that you never know.
if nomaken was offering ideas of how to off himself, then i might think that you had a valid point, esmy.
different strokes and all that, you just never know what a person needs....
-
It's far easier to scoff than be genuine imo
it is far easier to be genuine than to give someone false hope.
-
Giving hope itself is the main thing
Look through history - Really good people are invariably ignored and scoffed at
by the masses
Im not equating myself with one of these people, just explaining what goes with the territory
So feel free to carry on..... ;)
-
It's far easier to scoff than be genuine imo
it is far easier to be genuine than to give someone false hope.
We don't often disagree, but I have found the opposite to be true. It is often more of a challenge to remain honest than to tell someone what they want to hear, especially if you will receive no consequence from your words, as in the people you don't really have to deal with on a daily basis.
Knowing what someone wants to hear is next to impossible, but that doesn't stop most people from abandoning honesty.
-
Confusing as ever...
Firstly as you have quoted McJagger I am assuming that your comment is directed at him ie you are disagreeing with what he says?
But you are in effect agreeing with him Calamity
ie you're saying being honest/genuine is the best policy which is what McJagger said
And I never said I was telling anyone what they wanted to hear, just telling them what has worked for me
If you have a problem you tend to ask a person who has experience of that problem for advice imo
And if that person has managed to overcome said problem, all the better surely as it indicates that their advice
might work if I try it for myself??
-
Easier and better are not the same. In fact, they often exclude each other.
-
I don't dispute that, it doesn't appear to be in dispute in this discussion though
-
... just exploring the network of his statement, which was misleading, if taken literally. One of my deficits, maybe. I could try harder to find subtleties for you, but I'm not inclined.
It seemed to me that you brought up the need to re-phrase the obvious.
I also think you are very quick to establish an "as ever" with some people.
-
The philosopher Schopenhauer is very interesting on existence
He says how can people possibly think life is meant to make them happy?
We are here to mate and die and that's it
How can people possibly think that life about procreating and death when there are so many people who don't want children? I win.
I own the philosopher single-handedly. You people are easily swayed by famous people (omg, if they have lengthy beards and bad bo, they must be wise) -- you disgust me.
-
I'm not swayed because he's famous, but because what he says makes perfect sense
In the case of philosophy, the better stuff does tend to rise to the top
He's not the equivalent of the Beckhams of the Philosophy world lol
Far from it - he was a complete misanthropist
But, when a marching band went by he would always put a chair by the window so his little dog could watch
- I think that's so brilliant :laugh:
There need to be sufficient people following the essential 'plan' for the human race to continue, so it is taken as read that having children is the 'default setting'
The people who don't want children are probably a result of an inbuilt genetic self-limiting thing to stop resources getting too scarce (but obviously this isn't always effective)
But I'd say that by not having children you are living a life far more determined by free will
-
It's far easier to scoff than be genuine imo
it is far easier to be genuine than to give someone false hope.
We don't often disagree, but I have found the opposite to be true. It is often more of a challenge to remain honest than to tell someone what they want to hear, especially if you will receive no consequence from your words, as in the people you don't really have to deal with on a daily basis.
Knowing what someone wants to hear is next to impossible, but that doesn't stop most people from abandoning honesty.
to me it is easier to tell them what i honestly think....consequences be damned.
because if i tell them what i think they want to hear then i am not really doing them a service, and i have to remember what i said, since i didn't believe in it myself, this could be a difficult thing to do.
-
Well I just think there's a greater need for tact when a person is psychologically fragile
-
You're welcome to think what you want, it's when you start telling other people not to use their own methods that it turns into a fight.
I think it's funny how you and Nomaken got so caught up in debating psych help tactics with each other that you both quit talking to Calandale.
-
well actually id sent Cal an email and a pm, both of which he didnt appear to want to reply to and he said he
was tired on the thread so assumed he'd gone off the whole topic
-
well actually id sent Cal an email and a pm, both of which he didnt appear to want to reply to and he said he
was tired on the thread so assumed he'd gone off the whole topic
i think he took nomaken's advice.
-
That's horrible!
:-[
-
i would blame you, ya know. ;)
-
:laugh: McJagger, you are evil.
-
Yes and I'd probably take it on my conscience as well!
-
Yes and I'd probably take it on my conscience as well!
ever since the garden of eden the man has found that it is much easier to blame the woman. and the woman has been more than willing to accept this burden of guilt.
-
Good point.
-
::)
-
esmy, do you think that my last statement is untru?
-
untrue
partly
men blame women a lot but women diont always accept the guilt
-
::)
What, you think he's just stereotyping?
Consider the consequences of failing to help too many people, and taking on a harmful amount of guilt. It's a valid and fair warning.
-
untrue
partly
men blame women a lot but women diont always accept the guilt
this smells of nazi feminism.
-
Huh?
Im getting lost here
make your point more clearly!
I am a feminist not a nazi tho
And you brought the nazis into it! ::)
-
makes a change for the First godwin's law to be invoked here...
-
Do I win a prize? :laugh:
-
Nope, I think the prize goes to our very own McJagger.
-
:asthing:
-
Nope, I think the prize goes to our very own McJagger.
yay!
but could you please explain why?
-
You killed the thread by bringing Nazis into it. ;D
(yes, I know, you didn't mean actual Nazis, just extreme feminists. Point still stands.)
-
b-but.
b-b-but she.
you know.
-
My policy in life is that personal happiness is the most important thing. And I don't let anyone influence this belief. Now you aren't me. You might value something more than your own happiness, and you may be willing to let others decide how you should feel. But i think that if in order to be happy you need to kill yourself, I wont begrudge you that decision, and I wont think any less of you. But I will miss you.
Thank you. I'm too weak to manage it, and I'm not sure that happiness fits into the plan. I see suicide as more a means to transition to
something pure, and outside the bounds of happy/sad. Actually, I strongly believe that suicide should only be entered into in a moment of
exhileration and joy, and to die under other circumstances will only spoil ones future.
Anyhow, I managed something fairly drastic. I e-mailed one of my profs, explaining my situation, and started the ball rolling. I'm
going to be heading back into therapy - not that it helps in the fundementals (I know this is misspelled damnit), but at least I'll have a
real human who is paid to listen, which I guess is important. Rather have someone with me who cares, but that ain't gonna happen anytime
soon.
esme, sorry about not noticing the PM (I don't check the e-mail account that I signed up with), but I was indeed tired.
Still haven't seen it actually. But hell, I don't mind blowing my shit out in the open.
EDIT: Err...for what it's worth, I don't see any PM options here. Anyone know how I can find them?
-
Go into a person's profile (click on their name) and hit "Send this member a personal message".
Check your messages up at the top by your av, where it says "Hey, calandale, you have (xxxx) messages, (xxxx) are new."
Why wouldn't therapy fix anything fundamental?
-
Ah, it was hiding under a little triangle. No wonder I didn't notice.
Anyhow, I am what I am. They're not going to change that. Only
I can. If I can't (or won't) do it on my own, their not going to
manage to convince me to.
-
Ah - makes more sense. And good luck finding one who would be willing to help you try, anyway. Assuming you meant suicide.
Though I'm a big believer in one's ability to change one's own personality. Have gotten into the habit of recreating myself every couple of years when I move into a new environment.
-
I can put on masks if I need to. I just fundementaly (damnit!) don't change the
indolence that I tend to exhibit. As to getting help with suicide, that's not something
that I expect. My wife offered to off me, and I refused. It has to be my own act
of pure will to count.
-
Ah - indolence, I don't know how to fix, except maybe by getting better at synchonizing oneself with one's natural desires instead of trying to do everything by force of pure will.
What if you don't manage suicide before you die by natural causes, would you consider your life a failure?
-
Eh, depends on my spirtual state. Right now, my life IS a failure.
I can't imagine that I'm going to reach the type of mystical state
that I need. I think that I was given one pure option at death, and
turned away from it, gasping for life. Pity, would have saved the
unpleasantness that's followed.
-
In my experience, exceptional spiritual states only come when you aren't specifically looking for them. They come coincidentally while you are just living.
-
I've had a mix of the two. They tend to be sparked by great pain/pleasure,
which one can induce, if one tries hard enough. It certainly doesn't happen
when I'm just sitting on my ass posting on forums though; and this is about
all that I can manage right now.
-
In my experience, exceptional spiritual states only come when you aren't specifically looking for them. They come coincidentally while you are just living.
In my experience, it's hard to time them precisely, but you can very well set yourself on a path which increases the incidence of them greatly.
-
In my experience, exceptional spiritual states only come when you aren't specifically looking for them. They come coincidentally while you are just living.
In my experience, it's hard to time them precisely, but you can very well set yourself on a path which increases the incidence of them greatly.
chance favors the prepared mind.
-
Yikes - in retrospect that's the most awkward sentence I've written in a long time.
-
Yikes - in retrospect that's the most awkward sentence I've written in a long time.
ok then, bring it. it's on.
-
Bring what? What's on what? My dinner's on the stove getting cold, but somehow I doubt that's what you're on about. Go on.
-
just bring it, baby.
-
Yikes - in retrospect that's the most awkward sentence I've written in a long time.
Keep practicing, and you can get to the ultimately convoluted sentence with a meaning
so obscure that we shall implode just by reading it.
-
Since spirituality has been broached, I thought I'd mention the idea posed by Aquinas that existence itself is a form of perfection. He held that God is the only truly perfect/truly good being, and that we cannot be completely perfect because if we were, we would be God, and God could not create another God. Thus, humans have imperfect/evil by necessity, but our very existence is a form of perfection or of good. We are imperfect of necessity and cannot have all perfections; for example, we are finite, and therefore imperfect in a way because being eternal is a form of perfection. A more accessible example (from my phil prof): You can't be perfectly kind and perfectly honest, both at once, all the time. There will come a time when someone asks your opinion on something that matters to them and you'll have to either bend the truth and be nice, or be honest and mean. (Ex.: "Does this shirt make me look fat?" The moderate answer: "It's not your best look." The kind answer: "No, honey, you look wonderful." The most honest answer: "It's not the shirt. You really ARE fat.")
I hope that came out coherent. I'm not advocating the viewpoint but presenting it as it was the first thing that popped into my mind on reading the subject here.
As to the actual relevence here: Cal, I won't advocate suicide. I WILL advocate seeking out help. From what you've posted here, I'm guessing you would benefit from professional help, but you haven't presented yourself as someone whose life should be chucked in the wastebin.
-
To keep going with that: to attempt to be perfect, one first has to define perfect.
Calandale - what's your definition of perfect?
-
Since spirituality has been broached, I thought I'd mention the idea posed by Aquinas that existence itself is a form of perfection. He held that God is the only truly perfect/truly good being, and that we cannot be completely perfect because if we were, we would be God, and God could not create another God.
Replace Good with Evil, and I agree entirely. Perfection is a form of ascendence out of the realm of this evil creation.
As to the actual relevence here: Cal, I won't advocate suicide. I WILL advocate seeking out help. From what you've posted here, I'm guessing you would benefit from professional help, but you haven't presented yourself as someone whose life should be chucked in the wastebin.
Might have failed in my only chance to get help. I'm too lame to seek it out usually, and I got turned away effectively.
Shit, suicide is impossible for me. I well know that. There were two times that I had a fair option:
on top of Mt Ranier, I had an asthma attack, and was clearly told that I could go in perfection
At the end of my last fast, I felt no need to start eating again. It was really hard to want to, but there were some things that I needed to do.
But, my life is in the wastebin. Not that I think other people's lives are worth crap either; I just don't see the point.
To keep going with that: to attempt to be perfect, one first has to define perfect.
Calandale - what's your definition of perfect?
Right now, perfection is nothingness.
-
To keep going with that: to attempt to be perfect, one first has to define perfect.
Calandale - what's your definition of perfect?
Right now, perfection is nothingness.
So, perfection to you is the absence of anything bad or evil? Does this mean what we consider "good" is actually imperfect because it exists? If so, is all existence merely flawed, or utterly bad because it exists? Or do you need more serotonin?
-
So, perfection to you is the absence of anything bad or evil? Does this mean what we consider "good" is actually imperfect because it exists? If so, is all existence merely flawed, or utterly bad because it exists? Or do you need more serotonin?
That which is is wrong. Drugs thus, by their existence....
-
So, perfection to you is the absence of anything bad or evil? Does this mean what we consider "good" is actually imperfect because it exists? If so, is all existence merely flawed, or utterly bad because it exists? Or do you need more serotonin?
That which is is wrong. Drugs thus, by their existence....
Yes, but an antidepressant could wipe out your current bad state of extreme negative emotions and repace it with milder negative emotions, and therfore negative emotions which are less esistance-ful. Not to mention the possibilities in meditation. Buddhism, enlightenment, anatman... right up your pro-nullification alley (on a superficial level).
-
Yes, but an antidepressant could wipe out your current bad state of extreme negative emotions and repace it with milder negative emotions, and therfore negative emotions which are less esistance-ful. Not to mention the possibilities in meditation. Buddhism, enlightenment, anatman... right up your pro-nullification alley (on a superficial level).
Sure. Destroy what I am, so that I don't believe in it anymore. That's just great.
Sounds like a limited form of suicide. I like the full flavored version better.
As to meditation, I use magic in this way. I've just been too damned depressed to
do anything in any direction. It'll sort itself out one way or another - it always does.
It just sucks waiting for the spirit to come correctly. Sometimes, I feel like I get tastes
of it - and if I didn't have access to the internet, I'd be healing from this. Damned
addiction.
-
Sure. Destroy what I am, so that I don't believe in it anymore. That's just great.
Sounds like a limited form of suicide. I like the full flavored version better.
As to meditation, I use magic in this way. I've just been too damned depressed to
do anything in any direction. It'll sort itself out one way or another - it always does.
It just sucks waiting for the spirit to come correctly. Sometimes, I feel like I get tastes
of it - and if I didn't have access to the internet, I'd be healing from this. Damned
addiction.
Then why don't you make your internet connection perfect for a little while? A pair of scissors should suffice.
-
Then why don't you make your internet connection perfect for a little while? A pair of scissors should suffice.
I wish. I really wish that I could just stop. I was doing ok in the fall, when I didn't have a connection,
but someone moved nearby, and I can leach off of them. It seems so damned easy to just say, "don't
do it." And on my walks home from school, I am completely convinced not to. BUT, no matter what,
I just don't seem to have the will to avoid it. The thing is, if I push it aside temporarily, I end up doing
little of value anyway - but if I just didn't have it, I think that I could regain control. It doesn't rest me
the way that being off of the computer does.
-
I'd be interested to see your "Good=nothingness, evil=existence" idea fleshed out in the anti-philosophy forum, supported by some type of reasonable argument and not just the idea that life sucks. I'd be interetsed to see if you can support it, and/or I'd like picking it apart other than to say "Buck up, it's not all bad."
-
Sure I2 contributes. But something else would take it's place.
I was wasting my time over at a gaming site, before I started
looking into Asperger's. Then I switched to WP, and spent
too much time there.
As to the philosophy, it is merely an absurdity. Not worth
defending or preaching. It is really based upon the pun,
"Nothing is better than the best thing." It's not a categorical
error, and I can't really see the flaw in it. Not much to do
with life sucking, actually.
Comes down to, if there is no point to it all, it just doesn't
make a bit of difference, and nothingness is an aesthetically
more pleasing way to have no point. What if there is some
point? Well, without knowing it, one can't be certain of
acting towards it (or if it is good or not), so you're almost
in the same position as there being no point, but less
empowered - a circumstance which seems much less
attractive than absolute non-existence.
-
Don't get me wrong, I undertsand the feeling. My problem is that it's a feeling and not a viable worldview in any way I can see. On the other hand, working toward a goal of reducing your misery in some way- perferably construstive and/or non-desructive- can not only be a worthy goal, but partly self-accomplishing. Hopelessness is one of the hallmark thought patterns of depression. I'm assuming that the answer is yes, but I'll ask any way: if someone could magically make you feel better- not perfect, but no longer suicidal, and maybe healthy enough to kick some bad habits and make life less objectively depression- would you tell them to fuck off and try jumping out a window instead?
-
I'm assuming that the answer is yes, but I'll ask any way: if someone could magically make you feel better- not perfect, but no longer suicidal, and maybe healthy enough to kick some bad habits and make life less objectively depression- would you tell them to fuck off and try jumping out a window instead?
I don't know. It sounds cheap to me. Like this is a struggle that I have to win, without some magical interference.
From a less allegorical perspective, I want to be responsible for carving the new pathways into my mind,
not some drug, whose effects I cannot completely understand.
-
I'm assuming that the answer is yes, but I'll ask any way: if someone could magically make you feel better- not perfect, but no longer suicidal, and maybe healthy enough to kick some bad habits and make life less objectively depression- would you tell them to fuck off and try jumping out a window instead?
I don't know. It sounds cheap to me. Like this is a struggle that I have to win, without some magical interference.
From a less allegorical perspective, I want to be responsible for carving the new pathways into my mind,
not some drug, whose effects I cannot completely understand.
Actually, it's good you said that because drugs aren't magic. I was just wodnering if you'd be open to changign at all, even in an unrealistically ideal scenario. I've been on antidepressants and known people who were, and believe me, you're not walking on air all the time. It's a matter of possibly being able to get through an entire day without crying, for example.
Beyond that, antidepressants are an external solution to an internal problem, and cognitive therapy is as good or better than antidepressants for many people (better because when you quit therapy, the problems are still lessened, whereas when you go off meds, you haven't leanred anything that carries on). Would you at least be willing to seek THAT kind of help? Think of a therapist as a personal trainer for bulking yourself up, perhaps. They don't do the work for you. They just tell you things that you can do to help yourself, and (if they're good) give you a nice mental smack upside the head if you're fucking it up when you CAN do better.
-
Actually, it's good you said that because drugs aren't magic. I was just wodnering if you'd be open to changign at all, even in an unrealistically ideal scenario. I've been on antidepressants and known people who were, and believe me, you're not walking on air all the time. It's a matter of possibly being able to get through an entire day without crying, for example.
I haven't been able to cry recently. Kind of view that as a weakness now. Came close a couple of times, when I read about some of the situations over on WP - especially with people being forced to lose their minds to drugs that they can feel are destroying them. I have seen it happen enough IRL, that it just came too clearly.
Beyond that, antidepressants are an external solution to an internal problem, and cognitive therapy is as good or better than antidepressants for many people (better because when you quit therapy, the problems are still lessened, whereas when you go off meds, you haven't leanred anything that carries on). Would you at least be willing to seek THAT kind of help? Think of a therapist as a personal trainer for bulking yourself up, perhaps. They don't do the work for you. They just tell you things that you can do to help yourself, and (if they're good) give you a nice mental smack upside the head if you're fucking it up when you CAN do better.
I'm willing to try. I was seeing a shrink over the fall, and though I don't know if it was doing any good, it certainly
wasn't harming. It's nice to have someone to yak at. Tried contacting him in a moment of desperation yesterday,
and hid schedules pretty full for a while. I don't feel that he's likely to be much help - others might be better, but
I only have a couple more sessions that I can legitimately have with him. Mainly, the problem was that he WOULDN'T
give me that smack. I don't even know if a professional is what I really need at all - but it seems to be what I'd have
to settle for.
-
I'm willing to try. I was seeing a shrink over the fall, and though I don't know if it was doing any good, it certainly
wasn't harming. It's nice to have someone to yak at. Tried contacting him in a moment of desperation yesterday,
and hid schedules pretty full for a while. I don't feel that he's likely to be much help - others might be better, but
I only have a couple more sessions that I can legitimately have with him. Mainly, the problem was that he WOULDN'T
give me that smack. I don't even know if a professional is what I really need at all - but it seems to be what I'd have
to settle for.
There are too many incompentant touchy-feely "paid friends" out there posing as therapists, IMO. I've actually told mine "I want this to be more directive. I want to solve this. I've been over this." Feel free to do the same with yours. WHo knows, it may help. Americans tend to want nondirective, apparently. I can't for the life of me understand why. You might as well just talk to every telemarketer that calls and refuse to hang up.
-
Maybe I ought to get a phone and try that.