INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Jesse on July 26, 2013, 08:07:25 AM
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http://azdailysun.com/news/local/begging-in-flagstaff-headed-to-court/article_c70487ee-f1ce-11e2-908f-001a4bcf887a.html (http://azdailysun.com/news/local/begging-in-flagstaff-headed-to-court/article_c70487ee-f1ce-11e2-908f-001a4bcf887a.html)
and this article? I personally don't care if somebody asks me for money, I never have any so its not that hard to say no.
And sadly I think the business owners in this town are concerned about the same thing, these homeless people are
Money. :laugh:
Its already Illegal here to "camp inside city limits" which means sleep outside. overall the police here are such assholes, to everyone.
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Post the article. Don't mind panhandlers from the safety of the car, and have given to passive panhandlers who were just sitting with a sign. Really don't like being approached on the street though.
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I am generally uncomfortable with people approaching me when I am out and about and do my best to avoid it whether they are handing out flyers, selling something or asking for money. I don't think there should be laws against it though.
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Post the article.
July 21, 2013 5:00 am • By CHRISTOPHER LEONE Sun Staff Reporter
A simple question like, “Can you spare a dollar, sir?” can land you in jail if spoken in a public area to one of Flagstaff’s plainclothes police officers. That is what happened to Marlene Baldwin, an elderly Hopi woman who asked an undercover officer for a dollar after first asking him for a hamburger.
Baldwin is now the lead plaintiff in a complaint filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona in U.S. District Court against the Flagstaff police, the city and the state of Arizona.
Since 2008, Flagstaff police have been arresting nonaggressive panhandlers like Baldwin in a stepped-up effort to reduce the number of petty crimes, like consuming alcohol in public, trespassing and littering, which the department believes can lead to more serious offenses if left unchecked, according to its 2012 annual report.
The police initiative, called Operation 40 after I-40 and the fortified 40-ounce beers popular among street alcoholics, has tried to appease the city’s business interests after complaints about transients escalated.
The initiative tries to catch alcoholic street transients committing petty offenses earlier in the day, before they get too drunk and make themselves prone to committing even more serious crimes, according to the report.
Police decline to comment for this story because of the ongoing lawsuit.
But the annual report goes on to say that OP-40 in partnership with several other city departments and efforts has helped account for a 6 percent reduction in overall crime during 2012.
FREE SPEECH OR MISDEMEANOR
Peaceful begging is not a crime, said Dan Pochoda, ACLU’s Arizona legal director. “It has long been held by many courts that the act of asking for money is ... protected by the First Amendment.”
the Flagstaff police are enforcing a state law, not a city ordinance. Arizona State Statute Title 13-2905 says that loitering to beg in a public place is a class 1 or class 3 misdemeanor, depending on whether the person is near a school or not.
The Flagstaff police have been enforcing this law since 2008 and with no small impact, said Pochoda.
“In an 11-month period that we got the statistics ... there were about 135 arrests,” Pochoda said.
The police department’s policy is widely known, and so the right of the city’s panhandlers to ask for money is chilled, Pochoda said, even if they were going hungry, because they’re afraid of getting arrested.
According to the statute, someone asking for money has committed a misdemeanor, while the same person in the same manner asking an officer to vote for a candidate has not.
“Words and expressions must be permitted ... particularly in pubic areas,” Pochoda said.
SIMILAR ORDINANCES STRUCK DOWN
In 2011, a Phoenix’s ordinance that was not as harsh as the state’s statute because it only prohibited begging after a certain time was struck down, Pochoda said.
Even in this case, the State of Arizona v. Boehler, the court found the Phoenix ordinance unconstitutional on its face because it limited the panhandler’s free speech rights, Pochoda added.
The other aspects of OP-40, like littering or drinking in public, are different, Pochoda said.
“Our attack is not on Operation 40,” Pochoda said. “If someone is busted for conduct, and not speech, conduct that is criminal — that has nothing to do with the First Amendment.”
Pochoda said that he plans to ask for a preliminary injunction before Aug. 30 to stop the Flagstaff Police from arresting peaceful beggars.
“People are being harmed on a daily basis [and] courts have regularly stated that loss of First Amendment rights even for one day is an irreparable harm,” Pochoda said.
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Thanks, Richard. Would agree with parts; don't like it but it shouldn't be illegal.
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Thanks, Richard. Would agree with parts; don't like it but it shouldn't be illegal.
If it is harassment it should. The laws should be more defined to make sure a guy who is stranded and and needs money for a payphone won't get arrested as opposed to a guy who makes a comfortable living panhandling as a "business". There are people who actually make a decent living panhandling. It is sick. Those people should be prosecuted, not people in need.
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Thanks, Richard. Would agree with parts; don't like it but it shouldn't be illegal.
If it is harassment it should. The laws should be more defined to make sure a guy who is stranded and and needs money for a payphone won't get arrested as opposed to a guy who makes a comfortable living panhandling as a "business". There are people who actually make a decent living panhandling. It is sick. Those people should be prosecuted, not people in need.
I believe there are laws on the books about harassment already so if that is the case charge them with that. I am tired of them passing all kinds of laws for things already covered by other laws to make it look like they are doing something.
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It's doubtful very many panhandlers are scammers raking in loads of cash.
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It's doubtful very many panhandlers are scammers raking in loads of cash.
There was a parolee who was such a person. He would jump in front of cars and wore shitty clothes to collect money.
http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/ (http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/)
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Most of them are probably just poor.
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OT:
Anyone who can make enough "bread" to survive by just panhandling and selling what they can find that others throw away and remain "off the grid" while enjoying their lives should absolutely be allowed to do so, unquestioned.
:pirate:
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I have often bumped a panhandler's kitty by a few bucks if they do not harass me, overly much.
I do not have to know why they are where they are.
:'(
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It's doubtful very many panhandlers are scammers raking in loads of cash.
There was a parolee who was such a person. He would jump in front of cars and wore shitty clothes to collect money.
http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/ (http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/)
He's not very many. I didn't say it never happens.
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
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IN reality, maybe to understand, you should join them with nothing but fifty cents and a worn out blanket.
Try that for a few weeks and see how it goes for you when some asshole "socks you in the jaw and walks off" just for you having asked for his spare change.
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I think it's a ridiculous law. Anti-harassment law, sure. As-is, it seems to just criminalize poverty, which, well, jesus fucking christ. :bangbang:
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if you're prepared to sit on the street in the pissing down rain or freezing cold just to get a few coppers and 20ps off people while most walk past ignoring you, then youve got it pretty bad.
it's not a "business"
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Handicapped Beggar Makes 100k a Year PanHandling! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol9JrF-Scic#ws)
I don't think it should be illegal, it does make me uncomfortable though at times, especially the pushy types when they're drumming for a cause handing out flyers and crap.
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IN reality, maybe to understand, you should join them with nothing but fifty cents and a worn out blanket.
Try that for a few weeks and see how it goes for you when some asshole "socks you in the jaw and walks off" just for you having asked for his spare change.
I've been homeless before. I would not beg, and I would certainly not pursue someone if they had already said no.
just for you having asked for his spare change
That's not what I said. I said if I said no, and someone insisted on pursuing me, they might get socked in the jaw. Why do you fucking morons insist on taking little pieces of everything I say and crying about them? THATS NOT WHAT THE FUCK I SAID, ASSHAT. GODDAMN.
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Bring it. I know you live nearby. :eyelash:
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Yeah people shouldn't pursue you
I've heard someone make comments when me and a couple mates walked past without giving him something once
We genuinely had no change tho. These days people often just use their cards and take some cash out maybe. Unless you've bought something already, I have no change on me
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Yeah people shouldn't pursue you
I've heard someone make comments when me and a couple mates walked past without giving him something once
We genuinely had no change tho. These days people often just use their cards and take some cash out maybe. Unless you've bought something already, I have no change on me
Exactly. I mean if you don't have any change, you just DON'T. Ask me three more times, and falcon punch. I'm within my rights.
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I have had aggressive panhandlers approach me, but the situation almost always deflates because they like to hang out in the crowded areas. And I've been solicited for more than just money, like cigerettes. and lighters
One thing I always know, as long as money is around people will beg. I cant bring myself to do it because I know how much I dislike people doing it to me
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IN reality, maybe to understand, you should join them with nothing but fifty cents and a worn out blanket.
Try that for a few weeks and see how it goes for you when some asshole "socks you in the jaw and walks off" just for you having asked for his spare change.
Some panhandlers will attack others for not having spare change. There was a panhandler outside my school. He creeped the hell out of my friend. He said something to him. He was harrassing a bunch of disabled kids. Many are very naive and will give money or just be tricked into paying much more than something is worth.
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Handles on pots, pans and cups are quite useful.
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Bring it. I know you live nearby. :eyelash:
You are just talking big, and, while I applaud the effort to seem more important than your are, you are wrong. You may be a big strong army guy, but do not forget who I am, little fella. Do I take your threat seriously? "No."
And I am now responding to your previous post, quoted to me.
I am NOT crying.
I am simply dissing you and all of your ilk for having no patience for the ones who have fallen on times so hard that they would ask you twice or three times for your spare change, which you will probably dump in a jar to sit forgotten for months at a time anyway.
Golden Rule, dude and Walk a mile in his shoes before you judge him, etc ...
Get a fucking grip on becoming a human being before you continue this conversation with me, please.
???
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Bring it. I know you live nearby. :eyelash:
You are just talking big, and, while I applaud the effort to seem more important than your are, you are wrong. You may be a big strong army guy, but do not forget who I am, little fella. Do I take your threat seriously? "No."
And I am now responding to your previous post, quoted to me.
I am NOT crying.
I am simply dissing you and all of your ilk for having no patience for the ones who have fallen on times so hard that they would ask you twice or three times for your spare change, which you will probably dump in a jar to sit forgotten for months at a time anyway.
Golden Rule, dude and Walk a mile in his shoes before you judge him, etc ...
Get a fucking grip on becoming a human being before you continue this conversation with me, please.
???
I agree bout the judging thing. At times I feel Ragey is too judgmental. I tell him that. It does go both ways, though. Not trying to start anything, but it seemed like you were reading into his post a bit. It doesn't help he has a rough way of talking. It puts people off. He isn't a smooth talker. And that is putting it mildly. I think it is just a misunderstanding with Rage. He offends me a lot too. He is highly allergic to tactfulness. :toporly:
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Bring it. I know you live nearby. :eyelash:
You are just talking big, and, while I applaud the effort to seem more important than your are, you are wrong. You may be a big strong army guy, but do not forget who I am, little fella. Do I take your threat seriously? "No."
And I am now responding to your previous post, quoted to me.
I am NOT crying.
I am simply dissing you and all of your ilk for having no patience for the ones who have fallen on times so hard that they would ask you twice or three times for your spare change, which you will probably dump in a jar to sit forgotten for months at a time anyway.
Golden Rule, dude and Walk a mile in his shoes before you judge him, etc ...
Get a fucking grip on becoming a human being before you continue this conversation with me, please.
???
I agree bout the judging thing. At times I feel Ragey is too judgmental. I tell him that. It does go both ways, though. Not trying to start anything, but it seemed like you were reading into his post a bit. It doesn't help he has a rough way of talking. It puts people off. He isn't a smooth talker. And that is putting it mildly. I think it is just a misunderstanding with Rage. He offends me a lot too. He is highly allergic to tactfulness. :toporly:
I do not really think I know you, but I think your attempt at mediating between two testosterone poisoned souls is awesome and extremely cute.
I applaud your effort and I hope it comes to some positive outcome!
:plus:
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personally, I think rage doesn't know how to talk to people online. If he would just try to stop being so angry in his responces I'm sure he would have more of people's attention here
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I can't tell ya'll how many times I've wanted to make a devastating or belittling post here. But, with 2 exceptions I can think of, I have managed to re-think my anger/pride/whatever and either ignore the posts or post something ditzy. Not as much fun as going Terminator, but it works for me. Please don't take this as a criticism of anyone's posts, just a little insight into the :evillaugh: :grrr: me.
I forgot to add mugs to my earlier post.
Pots, pans, cups and mugs.
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I say go for it. occasional anger is alright, :laugh:
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I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Bring it. I know you live nearby. :eyelash:
You are just talking big, and, while I applaud the effort to seem more important than your are, you are wrong. You may be a big strong army guy, but do not forget who I am, little fella. Do I take your threat seriously? "No."
And I am now responding to your previous post, quoted to me.
I am NOT crying.
I am simply dissing you and all of your ilk for having no patience for the ones who have fallen on times so hard that they would ask you twice or three times for your spare change, which you will probably dump in a jar to sit forgotten for months at a time anyway.
Golden Rule, dude and Walk a mile in his shoes before you judge him, etc ...
Get a fucking grip on becoming a human being before you continue this conversation with me, please.
???
I agree bout the judging thing. At times I feel Ragey is too judgmental. I tell him that. It does go both ways, though. Not trying to start anything, but it seemed like you were reading into his post a bit. It doesn't help he has a rough way of talking. It puts people off. He isn't a smooth talker. And that is putting it mildly. I think it is just a misunderstanding with Rage. He offends me a lot too. He is highly allergic to tactfulness. :toporly:
I do not really think I know you, but I think your attempt at mediating between two testosterone poisoned souls is awesome and extremely cute.
I applaud your effort and I hope it comes to some positive outcome!
:plus:
She is an angel, isn't she?
personally, I think rage doesn't know how to talk to people online. If he would just try to stop being so angry in his responces I'm sure he would have more of people's attention here
I'm not "trying", you cocksucker. That's how I talk. I mean what the fuck do you want me to do, tuck you in beddibyes at night? Feed you chicken soup? Read you stories? Stop being such a pussy.
I don't really give a shit to be honest. If i'm running short myself, and I don't give any, and some asshole keeps following me... I reserve the right to sock him in the jaw and walk off.
If I saw you do something like that to someone in need, you would be on the ground struggling for breath with a ruptured larynx with my first blow and if you persisted, you would have a need to eat your final meals through a straw or an IV.
I hate people who disparage the weak or the ones who have hit on hard times.
Bring it. I know you live nearby. :eyelash:
You are just talking big, and, while I applaud the effort to seem more important than your are, you are wrong. You may be a big strong army guy, but do not forget who I am, little fella. Do I take your threat seriously? "No."
And I am now responding to your previous post, quoted to me.
I am NOT crying.
I am simply dissing you and all of your ilk for having no patience for the ones who have fallen on times so hard that they would ask you twice or three times for your spare change, which you will probably dump in a jar to sit forgotten for months at a time anyway.
Golden Rule, dude and Walk a mile in his shoes before you judge him, etc ...
Get a fucking grip on becoming a human being before you continue this conversation with me, please.
???
I AM a human being. And i'm not judging shit. As a matter of fact, when someone down on their luck comes to me politely, and I have a pocket full of change, I hand the shit over, dude. But if someone pursues me, expecting to use magical powers to force me to give them money when I have none(I'm not a wealthy man, you know), then fuck them right in the ass.
Like I said, I've been homeless. I know what its like. Don't presume to judge ME either, pal. I know you mean well, but you like everyone else on here seems to understand most everything I say as something completely different that what I actually said because of your feels. Knock it off.
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Welp. nope, you can talk anyway you like. I guess you see a different way to make friends than I do, that's all.
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Welp. nope, you can talk anyway you like. I guess you see a different way to make friends than I do, that's all.
I already have enough friends. And i'm not interested in making fake ones, who expect me to be someone i'm not just to have the PRIVELIGE of their company. Makes no sense.
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Fair enough. although, I don't really view someone being nice online as a fake friend. or talking in a manor that isn't always pissed off
I guess being angry online isn't always a bad thing and moderation is more of my line of thinking
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I really don't see what is so awful about the way I talk.
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I really don't see what is so awful about the way I talk.
Because you are an unwashed, thoughtless, brash apeman. With a giant head. : :hahaha:
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Most of them do piss me off, sadly. I understand not all of them want money for drink and drugs and that they've fallen to hard times, but I'd rather pay for measures to get them back up on their feet rather than keeping them where they are with spare change. That and I'm admittedly selfish with my money.
I wouldn't want any harm done on them, though. It's sad to think that violence towards them will fix anything. If someone bothered me too much, I would tell them to go away or call the police if they still persist. This has never happened though.
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In LAX, the panhandlers are so obnoxious. Most people will pay them to fuck off.
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I wouldn't want to have to do it
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I trolled a panhandler once. I said "you want to give me money? OK!" *puts hand out* "How sweet of you to want to give me money." *smiles innocently* Eventually they got frustrated and walked off.