INTENSITY²
Start here => What's your crime? Basic Discussion => Topic started by: eris on October 27, 2011, 01:54:47 AM
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I've heard that a lot before, and I think it is BS. I don't even understand where that comes from. Is it because you cannot understand love ? I don't know. I DO know that I have completely lost myself in someone else and loved them madly, and I dont know if i really love myself. I know I have loved others more than anything else in the whole world, including life itself.
I think it is just a dumb cliche. Anyone can fall in love, and people with little self esteem probably fall in love more often.
If you think this is true, though, explain to me why ... cause i really want to know.
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I can't comment authoritatively or even attempt to vote on this, but I do suspect that
"You have to love yourself before you can love somebody else" might be shorthand for
"You have to love yourself before you can love anyone else in a way that's healthy for you
and for them." Maybe lack of self-esteem leave you too needy for the other person's good
and too easily devastated if things go wrong. :dunno:
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it may differ between genders
but for a guy, i'd say definitely yes. girls are attracted to - amongst other - their confidence. a self hater would, by definition, have very little confidence.
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hm, now i realize i may have misunderstood the topic, but its 10 AM, and i havent slept. so. forgive my sin :(
im too tired to try to re-understand it
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I can't comment authoritatively or even attempt to vote on this, but I do suspect that
"You have to love yourself before you can love somebody else" might be shorthand for
"You have to love yourself before you can love anyone else in a way that's healthy for you
and for them." Maybe lack of self-esteem leave you too needy for the other person's good
and too easily devastated if things go wrong. :dunno:
yes, it probably isnt healthy love. But I dont think that means it isnt "real" love, or that a person is incapable of love. I have had people straight out tell me it is IMPOSSIBLE to fall in love if you do not love yourself. I know I've been in love.
it may differ between genders
but for a guy, i'd say definitely yes. girls are attracted to - amongst other - their confidence. a self hater would, by definition, have very little confidence.
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hm, now i realize i may have misunderstood the topic, but its 10 AM, and i havent slept. so. forgive my sin :(
im too tired to try to re-understand it
Go to bed, that made no sense :D
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22 views and 2 votes, and one was silly vote from sleepy Zegh. :D
I guess people just dont know ?
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I think the saying might be more aimed at people who primarily seek a relationship in the hopes it will make them feel better about themselves (see: every emo single guy on WP :P).
It's not saying that you CAN'T or are not CAPABLE of loving someone else before loving yourself, I think the phrase is just saying that you SHOULDN'T.
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Yes if it is to be 'good love'.
If you truly love yourself you will fall for someone that is good
for you and good to you. True love between two people is equal?
If you don't hold yourself in such high esteem you will put up with any old
bollocks. All under the pretence that you are in love.
Love is....different to different people. Sure if you wanna fall for someone
who treats you shit and wanna call it love..then ok...that is what it is to you.
My own definition is that it is a mutual thing only or not at all. Have written
off many a past lover because it was one sided.
What do i know? I will never marry. Now, the father to my boy - well yes he
knows about marriage, and is, JUST TO SOMEONE ELSE!
Me, mistress material. My views on love are NOT based on reality.
Oh Gawd why is life so complicated???????
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Im not sure about the need to love yourself in order to love another person, but I can however tell you that if you are looking for some sort of reciprocation you need to at least be comfortable with your own skin.
Otherwise you are going to be questioning this person´s motives for liking you(since you dont see anything likeable yourself) and all and its a recipe for disaster.
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Yes young man - love is a recipe for disaster!(i know that is taken out of context a tad)
I do love Cadbury's creme eggs very much, though.
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But I dont think that means it isnt "real" love,
It's easy for one person to say another person's understanding of love isn't real love. I guess it boils down to what love means to an individual. To answer the question, I think yes, but this is based on my own understanding of love.
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I think the posts above are right. You can love if you dont love yourself, but you might not get such high quality love back.
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Yes you can
What does it mean to "love yourself"?
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I think I am a crap person a lot of the time and I've loved other people no problem. So I voted no.
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I think it helps when you do love yourself beforehand. Otherwise the other person will always feel that they can't love you enough, to make you love yourself. If that makes sense.
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Yup
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I "love" myself ALL the time. :zoinks:
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Love is just a chemical reaction in the brain. It causes nothing but trouble.
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ok so for people who think yes... do OTHER PEOPLE need to love themselves before THEY can love someone else?
I still don't get what it means to love yourself. That doesn't mean I'm incapable of loving someone else though. I just don't get it. Why WOULD you love yourself? I don't hate myself, but I don't love myself either
What is love anyway? Who are you (or I) to say whether someone else's love is real or bullshit, or whther they are even capable of it?
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Loving yourself means taking care of yourself and wanting the best for yourself.
No one is saying anyone's love is not real or bullshit here. Just that not loving yourself leads to unhealthy, codependent relationships. That's only my opinion though.
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I take care of myself and want the best for myself, but not sure I would say I love myself. I mean I want the best for most people, but I don't love them all
imo, saying you NEED to be in a certain state before you are capable of loving someone is saying that that isn't real or valid
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imo, saying you NEED to be in a certain state before you are capable of loving someone is saying that that isn't real or valid
I don't agree with that. I just think that loving yourself makes the relationship healthier.
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I wasn't responding to your post tho, just people in general who voted Yes
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I know. Just wanted to make my position clear :laugh:
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oh ok I thought you were disagreeing with me coz you thought I was disagreeing with you :M
nevermind lol
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I guess, if you love yourself, you feel more confident, know what you want in a lover/SO. I think V said it best, "Be comfortable in your own skin", that can make a big difference. Thats my 2 cents worth!
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Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't get the "love yourself" stuff. I am not comfortable in my own skin. I don't hate myself tho and I have confidence
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Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't get the "love yourself" stuff. I am not comfortable in my own skin. I don't hate myself tho and I have confidence
It is more complicated then to just "love yourself".
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I think if you don't love yourself first you could become dependent on someone else for your happiness or become blind sometimes to things that you shouldn't.
I don't know, like math, love really isn't one of my good subjects. :LOL:
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ok, so it's not healthy love
but does that mean it isnt REAL ? I dont understand that. My feelings arent real ?
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ok, so it's not healthy love
but does that mean it isnt REAL ? I dont understand that. My feelings arent real ?
Sure it's real, but like a triple hot fudge sundae, it's just probably not as good for you as the salad.
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but that means it is possible. I dont understand how half the votes say that I cant even understand what love is or be able to feel the emotion.
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I think if it's to be long lasting and healthy for both parties, then I think one needs a deep understanding of themselves. A lot of people go into a relationship to "fix" whatever they feel is "wrong" with themselves. To fill an empty void, to feel needed, to have someone to throw their attention on, etc. The best relationships I've had is after I've had my own shit figured out.
I don't want anyone to rescue me (and I seem to drawn in guys who like to rescue, given my current situation) and I'm annoyingly independent with a strong stubborn streak. :green: But I've found that relationships become healthier and more productive and have the ability to go the distance when you've met your own needs first and what your partner brings to your relationship is a benefit, not a band-aid. And on the flipside, I'm attracted to guys who have their shit figured out as well. Someone who is at the same stage in life as me.
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I just want to wake up to someone spooning me. I dont think I want rescued, but I do want to feel needed. I really dont ask for that much out of the men I date and some feel that is good, some think bad. It's probably bad and I should be more picky. I dont think that means I've never been in love.
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but that means it is possible. I dont understand how half the votes say that I cant even understand what love is or be able to feel the emotion.
Exactly. this is what I was getting at. If someone votes Yes but are only meaning for them themselves tho, then that's fine
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If you can't see something in yourself to love then you can't ever understand what someone else could see in you that they could love. If you can't understand where your partner's love is coming from, or what it is based on, you will inevitably reject it or be unable to really believe it. This will cause the ultimate failure of the relationship.
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If you can't see something in yourself to love then you can't ever understand what someone else could see in you that they could love. If you can't understand where your partner's love is coming from, or what it is based on, you will inevitably reject it or be unable to really believe it. This will cause the ultimate failure of the relationship.
ok, it might cause the failure of the relationship but how does that mean the person cannot feel love for someone?
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I just want to wake up to someone spooning me. I dont think I want rescued, but I do want to feel needed. I really dont ask for that much out of the men I date and some feel that is good, some think bad. It's probably bad and I should be more picky. I dont think that means I've never been in love.
I think there's a big difference in wanting to feel needed in a healthy way, and wanting to feel needed in a really co-dependent needy way. Does that make sense?
I think people can feel love no matter what their intentions are for being in the relationship. But if they're looking for a relationship to be long lasting (I think of my parents in that regard, together 46 years) then it has to have healthy elements to it. Balance, reciprocation, trust, honesty, respect etc.
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If you can't see something in yourself to love then you can't ever understand what someone else could see in you that they could love. If you can't understand where your partner's love is coming from, or what it is based on, you will inevitably reject it or be unable to really believe it. This will cause the ultimate failure of the relationship.
ok, it might cause the failure of the relationship but how does that mean the person cannot feel love for someone?
How do you know what "love" even feels like? How do you know it isn't lust, or like, or co-dependency?
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I was married for almost 5 years. It that isn't love then I don't even. How do YOU know what love even feels like ?
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I just want to wake up to someone spooning me. I dont think I want rescued, but I do want to feel needed. I really dont ask for that much out of the men I date and some feel that is good, some think bad. It's probably bad and I should be more picky. I dont think that means I've never been in love.
I think there's a big difference in wanting to feel needed in a healthy way, and wanting to feel needed in a really co-dependent needy way. Does that make sense?
I think people can feel love no matter what their intentions are for being in the relationship. But if they're looking for a relationship to be long lasting (I think of my parents in that regard, together 46 years) then it has to have healthy elements to it. Balance, reciprocation, trust, honesty, respect etc.
CG, you made the two best posts of this thread! :plus: That is why my GF and I have been friends for years and now we have a relationship that seems pretty rock steady. I and she are finally comfortable enough in our skins to be comfortable with each other. If we stay together great, if we split at some point....well, we have both learned and that is what a good relationship is about......I may be young, but, I feel a lot better about myself from being with her!
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I was married for almost 5 years. It that isn't love then I don't even. How do YOU know what love even feels like ?
I was married to a woman for 3 years that I never loved, lived with her for 7. Stayed out of fear of dying alone, not love.
To me, love feels like looking at a part of myself that is outside myself. If I didn't love some part of myself I wouldn't know how to recognize that in another.
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To me love is when I can crawl right inside someone and feel comfortable there. It is someone I would never even want to think about betraying. It's someone I would die for, and fight for eternally. It is someone who is pure light and the sex doesnt even matter anymore. It's someone who makes me feel actual physical pains in my stomach to leave them. It is someone that makes me like my waking dreams more than my sleepy ones. It is someone who's faults are ok, and mistakes are forgivable. It is someone who's bodily functions do not gross me out, and I can happily watch him play nintendo all day and think "awww". I know love.
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I just want to wake up to someone spooning me. I dont think I want rescued, but I do want to feel needed. I really dont ask for that much out of the men I date and some feel that is good, some think bad. It's probably bad and I should be more picky. I dont think that means I've never been in love.
I think there's a big difference in wanting to feel needed in a healthy way, and wanting to feel needed in a really co-dependent needy way. Does that make sense?
I think people can feel love no matter what their intentions are for being in the relationship. But if they're looking for a relationship to be long lasting (I think of my parents in that regard, together 46 years) then it has to have healthy elements to it. Balance, reciprocation, trust, honesty, respect etc.
CG, you made the two best posts of this thread! :plus: That is why my GF and I have been friends for years and now we have a relationship that seems pretty rock steady. I and she are finally comfortable enough in our skins to be comfortable with each other. If we stay together great, if we split at some point....well, we have both learned and that is what a good relationship is about......I may be young, but, I feel a lot better about myself from being with her!
When you find that kind of connection, it's an amazing experience :)
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MLA just because love means one thing to you doesn't mean it means the same thing to everyone else. How can you say "how do you even know what love feels like?" You are not the authority on love.
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Best literary definition of love ever:
“And I want to play hide-and-seek and give you my clothes and tell you I like your shoes and sit on the steps while you take a bath and massage your neck and kiss your feet and hold your hand and go for a meal and not mind when you eat my food and meet you at Rudy’s and talk about the day and type your letters and carry your boxes and laugh at your paranoia and give you tapes you don’t listen to and watch great films and watch terrible films and complain about the radio and take pictures of you when you’re sleeping and get up to fetch you coffee and bagels and Danish and go to Florent and drink coffee at midnight and have you steal my cigarettes and never be able to find a match and tell you about the the program I saw the night before and take you to the eye hospital and not laugh at your jokes and want you in the morning but let you sleep for a while and kiss your back and stroke your skin and tell you how much I love your hair your eyes, your lips, your neck, your breasts, your arse and sit on the steps smoking ‘til your neighbor comes home and sit on the steps smoking ‘til you come home and worry when you’re late and be amazed when you’re early and give you sunflowers and go to your party and dance ‘til I’m black and be sorry when I’m wrong and happy when you forgive me and look at your photos and wish I’d known you forever and hear your voice in my ear and feel your skin on my skin and get scared when you’re angry and your eye has gone red and the other eye blue and your hair to the left and your face oriental and tell you you’re gorgeous and hug you when you’re anxious and hold you when you hurt and want you when I smell you and offend you when I touch you and whimper when I’m next to you and whimper when I’m not and dribble on your breast and smother you in the night and get cold when you take the blanket and hot when you don’t and melt when you smile and dissolve when you laugh and not understand why you think I’m rejecting you when I’m not rejecting you and wonder how you could think I’d ever reject you and wonder who you are but accept you anyway and tell you about the tree angel enchanted forest boy who flew across the ocean because he loved you and write poems for you and wonder why you don’t believe me and have a feeling so deep I can’t find words for it and want to buy you a kitten I’d get jealous of because it would get more attention than me and keep you in bed when you have to go and cry like a baby when you finally do and get rid of the roaches and buy you presents you don’t want and take them away again and ask you to marry me and you say no again but keep on asking because though you think I don’t mean it I do always have from the first time I asked you and wander the city thinking it’s empty without you and want want you want and think I’m losing myself but know I’m safe with you and tell you the worst of me and try to give you the best of me because you don’t deserve any less and answer your questions when I’d rather not and tell you the truth when I really don’t want to and try to be honest because I know you prefer it and think it’s all over but hang on in for just ten more minutes before you throw me out of your life and forget who I am and try to get closer to you because it’s a beautiful learning to know you and well worth the effort and speak German to you badly and Hebrew to you worse and make love with you at three in the morning and somehow somehow somehow communicate some of the overwhelming undying overpowering unconditional all-encompassing heart-enriching mind-expanding on-going never-ending love I have for you.”
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MLA just because love means one thing to you doesn't mean it means the same thing to everyone else. How can you say "how do you even know what love feels like?" You are not the authority on love.
I think it's a valid question though. It's interesting to hear someone elses response.
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I think a more curious question would be "do you need to love yourself before anyone can love you?"
:include:
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MLA just because love means one thing to you doesn't mean it means the same thing to everyone else. How can you say "how do you even know what love feels like?" You are not the authority on love.
Never said I was. I think I am being misread. Sorry about that :o
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you did basically say that I probably do not know what love feels like and cannot understand what it even is
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you did basically say that I probably do not know what love feels like and cannot understand what it even is
Sorry, but no I didn't. I asked a genuine question and everyone assumed I was implying that. I was actually just asking a question that I thought would lead to good conversation.
"You" did not mean "Eris", Sorry I was unclear that it was a general question and not aimed at someone in particular.
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It was implied.
If you can't see something in yourself to love then you can't ever understand what someone else could see in you that they could love. If you can't understand where your partner's love is coming from, or what it is based on, you will inevitably reject it or be unable to really believe it. This will cause the ultimate failure of the relationship.
ok, it might cause the failure of the relationship but how does that mean the person cannot feel love for someone?
How do you know what "love" even feels like? How do you know it isn't lust, or like, or co-dependency?
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Plus, if you mean that for everyone, that would include "Everyone"
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It was implied.
If you can't see something in yourself to love then you can't ever understand what someone else could see in you that they could love. If you can't understand where your partner's love is coming from, or what it is based on, you will inevitably reject it or be unable to really believe it. This will cause the ultimate failure of the relationship.
ok, it might cause the failure of the relationship but how does that mean the person cannot feel love for someone?
How do you know what "love" even feels like? How do you know it isn't lust, or like, or co-dependency?
FFS, I know what I said. I explained that isn't what I meant and I apologized three times. Can't do anything else.
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Plus, if you mean that for everyone, that would include "Everyone"
I have no idea what that means
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I think there are different types of love.
1. I have endless love for my son, and certain friends and members of my family. It is sort of unconditional. I love them no matter what they do to me.
2. I have probably said 'i love you' to a few men. Looking back it was just lust, or a challenge, or maybe just a friendship that went too far. It is usually the result of much dirty thinking, and butterflies in my stomach before meeting them, or some horny sex, followed by moping around like an old sock when they don't call. The best of us have been mistaken in to believing this kind of nonsense is love. I don't think it is really. Even if it hurts like hell at the time!
3. Then there is the old test of time love. My Dad (RIP Dad) died nine days before their golden wedding anniversary! fifty years with someone is mind boggling. If i analyse it though, and even though i don't really want it to be true - they had just gotten so used to being together. living together i mean. My mom had her friends and socially really had very little to do with my dad for the last twenty years or so. Is this love?
4. I think the 'love' that people rave on about is more perfect, is the same for both parties - more like a soulmate kind of thing! Very special (am told) and will stand the test of time. It is all the goody things that you won't find in no.2. It is something both parties thrive in, and grow in, and if real will not reel you in and spit you out. Maybe i have put it on a pedestal too much and that is why it has remained untouchable (to me anyway)
I have days when i think it is all bullshit anyway. Days where i think only 1,2, and 3 exist and that people just kid themselves into believing they have found the real thing. Still have the dreamy days too, so not that bitter and twisted. Yet.
Important thing is this is just my own perception. Others think differently. If you are happy yourself that you have found love - then, cool, don't listen to me because i am cranky :zoinks: and my rose tinted spectacles are covered in bird turd.
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Plus, if you mean that for everyone, that would include "Everyone"
I have no idea what that means
Well, I mean that you said it wasnt about anyone in particular, but if yo meant it as a general rule then it would be about particular people - all of them.
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Love is if you both still hold hands walking down the street, after 20+ years together.
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Love is if you both still hold hands walking down the street, after 20+ years together.
My paternal grandparents were like that. I dont know exactly how long they were married but it was over 50 years. When my grandfather died my grandma went crazy ( like, totally batty, hallucinations etc) and had to be put in a home. she died within a year of no apparent illness.
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Love is if you both still hold hands walking down the street, after 20+ years together.
My paternal grandparents were like that. I dont know exactly how long they were married but it was over 50 years. When my grandfather died my grandma went crazy ( like, totally batty, hallucinations etc) and had to be put in a home. she died within a year of no apparent illness.
That's horrible :(
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It was. She was semi - catatonic. I mean if you moved her arm, it would stay where you moved it. She had always said things in Greek then English, but after this she totally stopped speaking English and we couldn't even understand to help her.
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I know of a couple who were married over 60 years and the wife died first. The husband passed away in his sleep 3 days later and was perfectly healthy. :(
The first cat I ever adopted out when I started doing rescue work was to a British man in his 80's. His wife was in a nursing home. They had 5 children and when she lost the 6th (stillborn) he said she became "not right in the head" and over the years would have bouts of insanity, raging at him that he was having affairs when he had only gone to work for the day. He talked about how he would never do her wrong and was always faithful and even though she no longer remembers who he is, he goes to the nursing home every day at noon to bring her tea and biscuits. Their cat passed away and he was lonely being in the house by himself so he came to an adopt-a-thon to adopt a cat. I sent him home with the quirkiest chattiest cat we had (I found out later it was the exact OPPOSITE of the kind of cat he wanted but he was ended up loving the cat to bits and had entire conversations with him :laugh:) but when he talked of how much he loved her still, his eyes would well up with tears.
:heart:
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When i read stuff like that it makes me wish i had it.
:bigcry:
wish i could force it, or demand it, or even buy it!
guess i will just have to do without it :viking:
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you CAN by it, but gigolos are expensive. They never look like I want them to anyway, not everyone likes ugly bumps.
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When i read stuff like that it makes me wish i had it.
:bigcry:
wish i could force it, or demand it, or even buy it!
guess i will just have to do without it :viking:
You will have it bodie. Someday. It'll come when you least expect it.
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I think the close voting in this poll is because we are seeing the question differently.
I voted no. Obviously it's possible to love someone, without loving yourself.
I think most of the people who voted yes, probably saw the question as something like "Is it much better to love yourself before you try to love others."
The literal answer to the question is obviously no. The alternative is that anybody who does not love themselves cannot possibly love another person. This is obviously completely false.
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^There's no correct answer with abstraction.
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I think i been thinking of it do you need to love yourself before someone can love you?
I am getting all confused with this love thing.
@Binty thanks but that could be when i am too old and incapable of enjoying it :LOL:
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^There's no correct answer with abstraction.
I suppose that's right, but in this case I think it's as close to correct as is possible.
For instance, does a mum who doesn't love herself, automatically not love her child?
Does a once-attractive woman who has been disfigured and now feels complete self-loathing, no longer love her husband?
It's highly unlikely that a person who does not love themselves is less capable of love than a person who does love themselves, and to such an extent, that the person who does not love themselves cannot love another person.
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I think it's as close to correct as is possible.
No. Correct for you.
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I'm a firm believer that you get back what you put out there. If you close yourself off and the energy you put out there is that this will never come to me, then that's what you set yourself up for.
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I think the close voting in this poll is because we are seeing the question differently.
I voted no. Obviously it's possible to love someone, without loving yourself.
I think most of the people who voted yes, probably saw the question as something like "Is it much better to love yourself before you try to love others."
The literal answer to the question is obviously no. The alternative is that anybody who does not love themselves cannot possibly love another person. This is obviously completely false.
:agreed:
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I think it's as close to correct as is possible.
No. Correct for you.
Yes, but by the same logic, I could make any number of unlikely arguments based on the fact that love is abstract, and claim they could be true.
I could say that anyone who loves God is incapable of loving another person.
I could say that love across racial boundaries is impossible.
I could say that it's impossible for an aspie to love.
All of these things are clearly untrue, but are obviously impossible to disprove.
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No, you could say all of those thing and they be true to you based on your own definition of what love is. Love is like beauty. What is beauty? It's whatever I say it is. I know beauty and if you don't agree with me, then you don't know what real beauty is. See where I'm going with that? Would never really say something like that though. I know what love is and based on that, believe one can't love others without loving the self. Not saying you're wrong, just wrong from my perspective. Obviously you're correct from your perspective.
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I can't love someone by YOUR definition of love then. that doesnt mean I cant love someone. Because whether *I* can love someone or not is down to what *I* consider to be love.
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I can't love someone by YOUR definition of love then. that doesnt mean I cant love someone. Because whether *I* can love someone or not is down to what *I* consider to be love.
Maybe misread that, Adam. Or was confusing in my words. Love means different things to different people. For some it's based in dependency, infatuation, action, sex, or whatever. Someone who thinks it's something else might say, that's not real love. Of course it's real love. Love is whatever people think it is. Love is what makes a person feel love. Would never say you can't feel love because you don't agree with my definition of love, just think ones needs to love the self for it to happen, but that's my opinion.
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I'm a firm believer that you get back what you put out there. If you close yourself off and the energy you put out there is that this will never come to me, then that's what you set yourself up for.
:agreed: :plus:
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Ah ok, we are saying the same thing then lol. I must have misunderstoof, sorry. I'm pretty knackered and lay down while reading :P
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No, you could say all of those thing and they be true to you based on your own definition of what love is. Love is like beauty. What is beauty? It's whatever I say it is. I know beauty and if you don't agree with me, then you don't know what real beauty is. See where I'm going with that? Would never really say something like that though. I know what love is and based on that, believe one can't love others without loving the self. Not saying you're wrong, just wrong from my perspective. Obviously you're correct from your perspective.
I do know what you mean.
I actually think that "loving yourself" is far more of an abstract notion than "loving another."
I think we all have a fair idea of what love is, but "loving yourself" is a totally abstract concept. Adam claims not to know what it means. I barely know what it means, but feel fairly confident in saying that I do "love myself."
I doubt if anyone could even give a semi-educated guess on what percentage of us "love ourselves."
My own feeling would be around 50% of us, but it could just as easily be claimed that only a narcissist truly loves themself.
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Of course not. You just should, or else the relationship will probably be really unhealthy.
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just finished loving myself for the second time today. :orly:
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just finished loving myself for the second time today. :orly:
:lol: :plus:
"Love thyself" is an important lesson to learn :M
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I love mince pies.
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I love mince pies.
maybe you should MARRY one ::)
( :P just kidding)
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But then I'd be tempted to eat any future babies of mine :(
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But then I'd be tempted to eat any future babies of mine :(
:laugh:
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From experience, if I privately knock one off before 'loving' someone else, the experience lasts longer and is more enjoyable.