INTENSITY²
Start here => What's your crime? Basic Discussion => Topic started by: Binty on April 24, 2011, 09:46:00 AM
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I've just been thinking about how dismissive a lot of people are towards trans people or are openly transphobic and how no one challenges it. Even homophobes are usually called out on nowadays but transphobes are usually dismissed. The other day TOW told me how in his Russian class, his professor said that she doesn't support, what she called, other people's "alter-egos" and refused to refer to a transgirl in the class as she and even forbade her to refer to herself as a she in Russian. Which is completely fucked up.
Also, this article:
http://unicornbooty.com/2011/04/transgender-woman-beaten-into-a-seizure-at-mcdonalds/
Notice how even when that woman is going into a seizure, at the end people just step over her and continue filming.
Not to mention, I couldn't help but notice that there is a very similar mood of indifference here. A while ago parts made a comment about Kayleigh and no one apart from Soph challenged him. Also, I can't possibly count how many times people have made jabs at Soph about his gender.
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No one has anything to say? Of course not ::)
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No one has anything to say? Of course not ::)
Four other people online. At least two are in a timezone where it is 2:15am and are likely going to bed or close to it.
As to your initial post. Yes there are people who will happily let others get beaten or raped without lifting a finger, transgender or not. Life sucks and people are as a whole are indifferent.
Make a decent or an interesting point and maybe people will respond. Or maybe when more than two others posting who aren't in go to bed timezones are awake to look at this thread you will get more replies.
Is this the kind of response you were after? I have no idea. Could be because I am indifferent or it could be that I have to be out of the house at 9 and it is 2:19am now. Which do you think? It is rhetorical. I am going to bed. All the best with the thread Bint. Hope you manage to make a point.
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It mostly irritates me that transgender/transsexual persons often are childish and unrealistic, not the "transism" in itself.
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Yes, it's terrible, and the transgendered may have a harder road to travel in attaining acceptance than do the gays. Didn't watch the attack video, but would have to guess in real life, likely wouldn't have gotten involved except maybe to exit the scene and call 911. As for this site, have read a bit of hateful shit. Sometimes comment, sometimes don't, sometimes don't even see it, none of which really says anything about me.
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I've just been thinking about how dismissive a lot of people are towards trans people or are openly transphobic and how no one challenges it. Even homophobes are usually called out on nowadays but transphobes are usually dismissed. The other day TOW told me how in his Russian class, his professor said that she doesn't support, what she called, other people's "alter-egos" and refused to refer to a transgirl in the class as she and even forbade her to refer to herself as a she in Russian. Which is completely fucked up.
Also, this article:
http://unicornbooty.com/2011/04/transgender-woman-beaten-into-a-seizure-at-mcdonalds/
Notice how even when that woman is going into a seizure, at the end people just step over her and continue filming.
Not to mention, I couldn't help but notice that there is a very similar mood of indifference here. A while ago parts made a comment about Kayleigh and no one apart from Soph challenged him. Also, I can't possibly count how many times people have made jabs at Soph about his gender.
OK, I watched the video, which was difficult to see, but I didn't see it the same way that you did. I saw people telling the two women to stop, the older woman trying to protect the victim and someone telling the women that they needed to leave the store, that the police had been called, and I saw someone move the trash can so the victim who was having a seizure didn't hurt herself on it. I think that the people who stepped over her were the older woman who had been trying to protect her and maybe a store manager who was trying to make the two assailants leave.
Was the person filming it using his cell phone? Maybe he was filming it so the police could use it to catch and prosecute the assailants?
In the case of TOW's Russian teacher, maybe she is just going by the genders listed on the class enrollment forms. I would think that if those forms were listed as the gender the person identifies with, she wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
In the case of GA, people here got to know him as a man first and then as a husband of someone we care about, so if people call him "he" instead of "she" I think that plays a big part.
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What was the comment about GA?
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No one has anything to say? Of course not ::)
Four other people online. At least two are in a timezone where it is 2:15am and are likely going to bed or close to it.
As to your initial post. Yes there are people who will happily let others get beaten or raped without lifting a finger, transgender or not. Life sucks and people are as a whole are indifferent.
Make a decent or an interesting point and maybe people will respond. Or maybe when more than two others posting who aren't in go to bed timezones are awake to look at this thread you will get more replies.
Is this the kind of response you were after? I have no idea. Could be because I am indifferent or it could be that I have to be out of the house at 9 and it is 2:19am now. Which do you think? It is rhetorical. I am going to bed. All the best with the thread Bint. Hope you manage to make a point.
You could say that about homophobia or racism as well though - that people are indifferent regardless of the race/sex/sexuality. Doesn't make the problem go away though. And that is the point.
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also I think the thing about people still referring to GA as "he" because of renaeden is mostly bullshit. That may be your reason Callaway, but not for a lot of people who call her "he"
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But people are indifferent, most of the time. It's when they start having definite opinions that I get worried.
I refer to GA as a "he" because a) I first learned who he was when he was most definitely a he, and b) because I'm mostly indifferent and habits kick in.
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Habits do kick in yeah, I understand that, as I am used to referring to GA as "he" too and have done it myself, although I try to correct myself
I don't think it's much to ask to call her "she" though. It's understandable that this is hurting renaeden, but there's nothing people can do about that really - they have split up now and GA is a woman now regardless. If people are talking directly to renaeden that that makes more sense, but in general all over the board, I don't see why people can't refer to GA as "she" now.
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Oh god, don't even get me started on he/she. Funny story - I've always referred to Soph as a he. Until Facebook. Then I don't want to say she, because I view him as a he, but I know his Mum is on there. So one day when Carla was worried about Soph and I was trying to respond and needed to do it in 3 sentences, I referred to Soph in the third person in every sentence simply because I didn't know any other way to do it. I went back later and read it and laughed out loud because it looked absurd. :laugh:
Gay, straight, bi, trans, crossdressers. have friends who fall under those categories. Doesn't bother me in the least. It's the person I care about, not the title.
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Habits do kick in yeah, I understand that, as I am used to referring to GA as "he" too and have done it myself, although I try to correct myself
Sometimes called Loup a he, but Loup was a he to me even though knowing otherwise.
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Oh god, don't even get me started on he/she. Funny story - I've always referred to Soph as a he. Until Facebook. Then I don't want to say she, because I view him as a he, but I know his Mum is on there. So one day when Carla was worried about Soph and I was trying to respond and needed to do it in 3 sentences, I referred to Soph in the third person in every sentence simply because I didn't know any other way to do it. I went back later and read it and laughed out loud because it looked absurd. :laugh:
haha I don't think I ever noticed that
I've noticed people doing that on this site though for some reason, as if they know I'm not a "she" but feel uncomfortable referring to me as "he" so keep saying "soph" repeatedly or even "they" lol. Which seems kinda weird to me and suggests quite a few people here really DO have a problem with me being a guy - and obviously I'm not married or ina relationship wit another member, so it can;t be that
I have never insisted (or even asked, unless someone has questioned me about what I want) to be called he. Obviously I identify as he and I am a guy imo, but it is everyone else's right to call me she if they want. It is my right to judge that person for that too though, and I can't lie - I do
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Habits do kick in yeah, I understand that, as I am used to referring to GA as "he" too and have done it myself, although I try to correct myself
I don't think it's much to ask to call her "she" though. It's understandable that this is hurting renaeden, but there's nothing people can do about that really - they have split up now and GA is a woman now regardless. If people are talking directly to renaeden that that makes more sense, but in general all over the board, I don't see why people can't refer to GA as "she" now.
With all due respect, GA is not a woman. He is someone who would like to be one, sure, but that alone does not a woman make. It's not right for people in his situation, nor those sympathetic to them, to hijack the definition just because they want it. Come up with another term, because this one is already consistently defined.
Call me a bad person if you want to, but I am mostly indifferent to the plights of these people. Live and let live, and all that. I will say this, however: I don't have anything per se against the transgendered, but I will also not abuse vocabulary and definitions I see as very well defined as well as reasonably fundamental to human reproductive biology and our society in general.
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Language evolves. If you met someone who looked 100% like a woman, but you found out that they were biologically male, wouldn't you feel stupid calling her a man?
What makes a woman btw, in your opinion? A vagina?
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It was unclear to me what triggered the beating. I wouldn't have known the victim was transgendered from what I saw. What I did notice was that it was 2 blacks beating up on a white and wondered if there was an element of racism in the attack?
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Language evolves. If you met someone who looked 100% like a woman, but you found out that they were biologically male, wouldn't you feel stupid calling her a man?
What makes a woman btw, in your opinion? A vagina?
I think that it's more who the person presented to be when you first got to know them, so if I met a person with a penis who dressed as a female and who identified himself/herself as a woman from the beginning, I would call him/her "she" but if I met someone who presented as a man first, I would have a much harder time calling him "she" because the fact that he's a "he" is already wired in my brain.
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It was unclear to me what triggered the beating. I wouldn't have known the victim was transgendered from what I saw. What I did notice was that it was 2 blacks beating up on a white and wondered if there was an element of racism in the attack?
Read a couple of articles, and it does seem to be gender related. Things said similar to, that's a man going in the ladies room. The victim said she was first approached with being accused of trying to talk to one of the attacker's man or something like that. Got the impression they went into the bathroom after her, not something that started in the bathroom. Race wasn't mentioned, but didn't find any statements from the attackers, so not sure.
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It was unclear to me what triggered the beating. I wouldn't have known the victim was transgendered from what I saw. What I did notice was that it was 2 blacks beating up on a white and wondered if there was an element of racism in the attack?
It said something about she was using a woman's bathroom, so I think it was related to that. Didn't read the whole thing though so not sure
Language evolves. If you met someone who looked 100% like a woman, but you found out that they were biologically male, wouldn't you feel stupid calling her a man?
What makes a woman btw, in your opinion? A vagina?
I think that it's more who the person presented to be when you first got to know them, so if I met a person with a penis who dressed as a female and who identified himself/herself as a woman from the beginning, I would call him/her "she" but if I met someone who presented as a man first, I would have a much harder time calling him "she" because the fact that he's a "he" is already wired in my brain.
It is harder online though - I have always been open about being trans here and have never presented myself as a woman, but other people do it for you. Apart from the odd photo, it is all just words on a screen, so harder to "present" as one or the other.
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Language evolves. If you met someone who looked 100% like a woman, but you found out that they were biologically male, wouldn't you feel stupid calling her a man?
What makes a woman btw, in your opinion? A vagina?
Language evolves, sure, but we are not anywhere close to the point where the definitions have become muddled. Notice what I wrote about the definition:
I will also not abuse vocabulary and definitions I see as very well defined as well as reasonably fundamental to human reproductive biology and our society in general.
In other words, if GA becomes a woman able to reproduce, then I *might* reconsider, but even then I would probably want another term because this one remains clear.
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I still don't see why though? I mean how is it a problem for a transwoman to be referred to as a woman? Why does that bother you?
Also plenty of biological women can't have kids
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It was unclear to me what triggered the beating. I wouldn't have known the victim was transgendered from what I saw. What I did notice was that it was 2 blacks beating up on a white and wondered if there was an element of racism in the attack?
Read a couple of articles, and it does seem to be gender related. Things said similar to, that's a man going in the ladies room. The victim said she was first approached with being accused of trying to talk to one of the attacker's man or something like that. Got the impression they went into the bathroom after her, not something that started in the bathroom. Race wasn't mentioned, but didn't find any statements from the attackers, so not sure.
Just watch the victim's video statement on youtube and it may not have been gender related at all. More of 'that's my man' kind of thing.
Edit: forgot to paste the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ5lOvs0Nf4&feature=youtu.be
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It was unclear to me what triggered the beating. I wouldn't have known the victim was transgendered from what I saw. What I did notice was that it was 2 blacks beating up on a white and wondered if there was an element of racism in the attack?
Read a couple of articles, and it does seem to be gender related. Things said similar to, that's a man going in the ladies room. The victim said she was first approached with being accused of trying to talk to one of the attacker's man or something like that. Got the impression they went into the bathroom after her, not something that started in the bathroom. Race wasn't mentioned, but didn't find any statements from the attackers, so not sure.
Just watch the victim's video statement on youtube and it may not have been gender related at all. More of 'that's my man' kind of thing.
Edit: forgot to paste the link.
http://youtu.be/uQ5lOvs0Nf4
I saw a statement from the victim who thought that her race may have played a part as well as that the "man" of one of the attackers had spoken to her and she answered. I think that one of the attackers made a statement that the attack happened because it was a "Dude in the ladies' bathroom." Apparently one of the attackers was just 14 years old.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-mcdonalds-beating-20110423,0,3336656.story?page=1
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I still don't see why though? I mean how is it a problem for a transwoman to be referred to as a woman? Why does that bother you?
Also plenty of biological women can't have kids
It's a simple matter of definition. I never said a trans can't call him/her whatever s/he likes, I simply said that I won't.
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It was unclear to me what triggered the beating. I wouldn't have known the victim was transgendered from what I saw. What I did notice was that it was 2 blacks beating up on a white and wondered if there was an element of racism in the attack?
Read a couple of articles, and it does seem to be gender related. Things said similar to, that's a man going in the ladies room. The victim said she was first approached with being accused of trying to talk to one of the attacker's man or something like that. Got the impression they went into the bathroom after her, not something that started in the bathroom. Race wasn't mentioned, but didn't find any statements from the attackers, so not sure.
Just watch the victim's video statement on youtube and it may not have been gender related at all. More of 'that's my man' kind of thing.
Edit: forgot to paste the link.
http://youtu.be/uQ5lOvs0Nf4
I saw a statement from the victim who thought that her race may have played a part as well as that the "man" of one of the attackers had spoken to her and she answered. I think that one of the attackers made a statement that the attack happened because it was a "Dude in the ladies' bathroom." Apparently one of the attackers was just 14 years old.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-mcdonalds-beating-20110423,0,3336656.story?page=1
Thanks, Callaway.
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I still don't see why though? I mean how is it a problem for a transwoman to be referred to as a woman? Why does that bother you?
Also plenty of biological women can't have kids
It's a simple matter of definition. I never said a trans can't call him/her whatever s/he likes, I simply said that I won't.
I know - and that's fine. I was just wondering why it matters to you so much.
To me it is also about privacy - it should be nobody's business whatsoever whether someone has a vagina or a penis
Also you didn't address the fact that many people can't reproduce anyway
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Re your last point:
It's not an issue, other than that they cannot actually reproduce. They were supposed to--they were born to--but something went wrong.
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Most trans people actually view their sex the same way - ie that they were "supposed" to be male/female but something "went wrong"
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Ah, yes, but the easy explanation is that they were indeed supposed to be what they don't want to be but psychologically something went wrong. Biologically speaking a lot more would have to go wrong for their theory to be the plausible one.
And mind, I'm not arguing anything else than plausibility.
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Gay, straight, bi, trans, crossdressers. have friends who fall under those categories. Doesn't bother me in the least. It's the person I care about, not the title.
Exactly.
I sometimes screw up the he/she thing though when I've know someone prior as one gender and now they're another, it's not intentional, I'm just basically a "burn-out" somedays. :zombiefuck:
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I'm indifferent to them. They can call themselves what they like, but I will define them in my own terms too.
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I don't care what they are if I like them I like them if I don't I don't. I doesn't enter into what I think of people
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Frankly I find this thread to be stupid, but decided to add to the stupidity for the sake of it.
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No one has anything to say? Of course not ::)
Oh wow Bint. Now that you see what happens when you wait more than 20 minutes for an answer you get to see what happens if you don't rail against people's indifference to answering your posts (three pages so far and counting), you can explain the importance of the above.
Still not seeing the point to be honest. People are asses. We had a similar thread not long ago about people ignoring an Autistic person getting raped whilst no one did anything. Was this because they were indifferent or because the victim was Autistic?
I've just been thinking about how dismissive a lot of people are towards trans people or are openly transphobic and how no one challenges it. Even homophobes are usually called out on nowadays but transphobes are usually dismissed. The other day TOW told me how in his Russian class, his professor said that she doesn't support, what she called, other people's "alter-egos" and refused to refer to a transgirl in the class as she and even forbade her to refer to herself as a she in Russian. Which is completely fucked up.
Also, this article:
http://unicornbooty.com/2011/04/transgender-woman-beaten-into-a-seizure-at-mcdonalds/
Notice how even when that woman is going into a seizure, at the end people just step over her and continue filming.
Not to mention, I couldn't help but notice that there is a very similar mood of indifference here. A while ago parts made a comment about Kayleigh and no one apart from Soph challenged him. Also, I can't possibly count how many times people have made jabs at Soph about his gender.
javascript:void(0);
Tongue
I of course get the whole connection between people's apparent to you indifference between transgender and people allowing someone to be beaten up. That is monumentally clear. ???
Isn't the board's indifference to transgender issues a GOOD thing? We don't care and it doesn't impact on our communal mentality.
For fuck's sake we are a collection of Autistist (apart from yourself naturally Bint) by and large. Most of us don't give a damn about that much either.
What is the point of that too. In fact your post has a stream of consciousness look and doesn't seem to really connect any dots and the points seem vague and meaningless all in all.
Hope this helps.
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Was this because they were indifferent or because the victim was Autistic?
That's a good point to bring up because it may not be either. Expecting people to get involved in acts of violence of strangers is a bit out there, outside of calling police and giving a witness report. Noticed in the articles read, there's a lot of criticism of the witnesses; though not sure if that's what Binty's post was saying.
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For fuck's sake we are a collection of Autistist (apart from yourself naturally Bint) by and large.
The Bint isn't autistic?
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What are my views regarding transgendered people. Well, I think that an individual would know what gender they are and should be the person to decide what is what. Other than that, I would date one. Ive been with a lot of crossdressers but no trans. As for f2m I would probably be attracted to them too.
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For fuck's sake we are a collection of Autistist (apart from yourself naturally Bint) by and large.
The Bint isn't autistic?
Sure isn't
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It is hard to remember but I will refer to GA as she on here, that is what she wants.
She has had some people at uni who she has just met call her "he" so it isn't just me that has difficulty deciding.
I still love GA to bits, I don't think that will ever change.
I get confused about Squiddy, though even though he is not transgender, he still talks about make up and cleavage and stuff? It confuses me.
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Saw the video. It was nasty. The McDonalds staff were a bunch of spineless div's but acted
just how i would expect them to. I think the behaviour of the staff would have been the
same whoever had been attacked. I have seen this kind of reaction before, and the victim
wasn't trans, or gay.
The reason i have not posted sooner is down to the title of the thread. It really doesn't
bother me that some folks are trans.
For the purpose of this forum, where the members are from all different corners of the globe,
and therefore i remain unlikely to meet any of them, gender just doesn't matter. Well i
got it into my head that two things really don't matter to me
1. what they look like,
2. if someone has a winkey or not.
My reason for liking people on here is purely based on what they write
on here.
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The video wouldn't load for me but I can well imagine it was horrible. There was a picture of the girl being dragged by her hair and that is horrible enough.
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Les if you can't see a point, I suggest you go back to school and learn how to read with comprehension otherwise I'm afraid I can't really help you here. Yes, I'm an NT but what the hell does that have to do with this thread? ??? I guess it is a way to avoid saying how you really feel about trans people. I haven't forgotten that post you made about Soph on ZOMG.
Odeon, here is the post I was referring to:
Galileo Ace had a sex change operation and posts from time to time as Kayleigh.
GA hasn't had a sex change operation but does post as Kayleigh now.
I thought she had the operation. Sorry
No he learned to "tuck" :zoinks:
Callaway:
OK, I watched the video, which was difficult to see, but I didn't see it the same way that you did. I saw people telling the two women to stop, the older woman trying to protect the victim and someone telling the women that they needed to leave the store, that the police had been called, and I saw someone move the trash can so the victim who was having a seizure didn't hurt herself on it. I think that the people who stepped over her were the older woman who had been trying to protect her and maybe a store manager who was trying to make the two assailants leave.
Was the person filming it using his cell phone? Maybe he was filming it so the police could use it to catch and prosecute the assailants?
In the case of TOW's Russian teacher, maybe she is just going by the genders listed on the class enrollment forms. I would think that if those forms were listed as the gender the person identifies with, she wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
In the case of GA, people here got to know him as a man first and then as a husband of someone we care about, so if people call him "he" instead of "she" I think that plays a big part.
I'm not sure where you saw multiple people helping her in that video. I didn't. The manager made a light attempt to shoo them away and the lovely old woman tried to help but she too got shoved around. No one else in that McDonald's made any attempt to do anything. All the other workers stood around laughing and filming it, not for the police but for their own personal amusement. Not to mention telling the girls to run because the police were coming. Rather than protect the victim, they were protecting the perpetrators.
TOW's Russian teacher IS going by the class enrollment forms but don't you think it's wrong to force someone to refer to themselves as something they're not? Fair enough if she refuses to call that girl a she because of her own personal beliefs, but to force her to refer to herself as a he is fucked up.
I know people have gotten to know Kayleigh as GA but in that case what about people who still insist on calling Soph a "she"? He's been open about being trans from the start and he hasn't got a partner here either.
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I'm horrified.
Not by the attack. The attack absolutely sickened me. Even though it may not have driven by gender, the arsehole who filmed it thought it was.
(http://lezgetreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/fbmessages1.jpg)
He was fired. (http://lezgetreal.com/2011/04/baltimore-mcdonalds-fires-employee-who-filmed-attack/)
What horrifies me is the responses in this thread. I'm really at a loss for the right words.
You all need to go back and read my threads on trans issues, particularly the arguments I had with Hadron and Calandale about what defines a woman. I'm looking at you again Odeon. I can't believe you wheeled out the tired cliche that a woman is only her reproductive system (functional or not). You've basically wilfully denied identity to millions of intersex people and to millions of transpeople. According to you, I'll never be a woman, and Soph will always be a woman. Can you fathom how offensive that is?
To put it into an autism context, it's about as offensive as AutismSpeaks telling us that we're burdens to our families and whatever. You basically became AutismSpeaks. Telling us, Soph and I, us trans people, what we are and what we are not without actually taking trans-perspectives into account. Congratulations. You're an arsehole.
I seriously hope that none of your children are trans. Whilst I'd never wish being trans upon anyone, I think it'd be the cruellest thing to have to be trans and have parents like you.
Not that I think you're any decent at parenting anyway. I know this because of the hours I've spent researching how your parents your children, and time I've invested in understanding what's it's like to be a parents and all the difficulties thereof. I feel that I have enough information to declare you all bad parents.
In case you didn't realise, the previous paragraph was sarcastic. I know next to nothing about how your parent your children, and have no right to have any say on the validity of how you go about it. But somehow, you do have a valid right to tell me I'll never be a women. To tell me that calling me 'she' is too difficult for you, aww I'm sorry my existence is difficult for you (that last was dripping with bitter sarcasm).
You're wrong. I don't "want" to be a woman. I am a woman. This is not a psychological error any more than autism is. Both trans and autism are neurobiological in nature. Basically a physical error in the brain.
Neurobiological = Hardware
Psychological = Software
I am the way I am, trans, autistics, adhd, possibly dyslexic, whatever else, because of errors in my brain and brain chemistry. I didn't just wake up one day and think "I want to be a woman, la da di di da". My first memory of realising I was supposed to be a girl was when I was 9, though my childmind processed that as wanting. FUCKING 9 years of age. I also tried to commit suicide that year. AT FUCKING NINE! This has always been a long term thing for me, I always had to deal with these feelings, that I was not male. Do you even know how hard I fought to "be male"? You really have no idea what I put myself through. The levels of suppression I went, suppressing my emotions, putting up walls in my mind, blocking out thoughts and ideas. It was so so hard :(
And now I have to deal with the repercussions of that. I have to deal with trying to bring down those walls, to learn how to deal with emotions properly and not just mentally run away from them. The depressions I get into because I can't control my negative emotions. The freakouts I have because some idea or thought or comment has trigged something in my mind. THAT'S FUCKING PSYCHOLOGICAL. THAT'S BECAUSE I TRIED TO BE MALE.
But, since I have begun transitioning, I have begun to live. Before, when I was Joshua. I had no life. I merely existed. I had no dreams, no goals. I didn't care enough. I just wanted to stay home and lose myself in stories (tv shows, games, movies, books etc). I now have dreams. I now have goals. I now have a life. I'm going places, I'm doing stuff. I'm engaging with the world in ways I never even realised. Don't you dare take that away from me.
I do know how hard it is for those around me to process this. I know the shit I've put renaeden through, and I will be eternally sorry for that. But I can't change what I am. Just the shell I am in. And renaeden has become supportive of Kayleigh. I know she misses Joshua, and I feel for her. But he is no longer, he never existed. He was a shell personality, put in place to try and fit in with the world in the way everyone was telling me to.
People telling you can't do this, you can't do that. Just as you have done today.
Well. FUCK YOU. I'll be who I want to be. I am Kayleigh. A woman.
I would like to note that this post was only directed at people like Odeon, Callaway and Swearengen. This is intended to be my last post on this forum*. I don't need people like you in my life any more. I've moved on.
(*=I reserve the right to change my mind)
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TL;DR
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Les if you can't see a point, I suggest you go back to school and learn how to read with comprehension otherwise I'm afraid I can't really help you here. Yes, I'm an NT but what the hell does that have to do with this thread? ??? I guess it is a way to avoid saying how you really feel about trans people. I haven't forgotten that post you made about Soph on ZOMG.
No the fault lies in your ability to make your point understood. You are all over the place like a mad woman's shit.
I have not avoided saying how I feel about transgendered people and nor have others. The almost complete forum answer to what they think of transgender people generally is that they don't give a rat's whether someone is transgender or not. Why should we have any investment?
It unsurprisingly is not a big factor in our lives.
That has little to do with the video though does it?
No the video was specifically saying how horrible the non-transgendered people were to the transgendered person. I think humanity is just shitty and a similar result would hold sway regardless of whether that person was transgendered or not, because people are people. You have something obviously to show that there was bias with all the people concerned due to the victims gender identification? No? Making a point? No? Me needing comprehension because "I" can't back what I am saying? Shitty projection there Bint.
I too remember what you said about my kids so don't stand in the pulpit.
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Odeon, here is the post I was referring to:
Galileo Ace had a sex change operation and posts from time to time as Kayleigh.
GA hasn't had a sex change operation but does post as Kayleigh now.
I thought she had the operation. Sorry
No he learned to "tuck" :zoinks:
And? Being trans makes him more sensitive to jokes?
I have no problems with people being trans. Whatever floats anyone's boat, etc. I'm basically indifferent, but anything hinting at special treatment is also a no-no for me.
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I don't care about indifference to trans people. I care about indifference to transphobia, which seems all too apparent here. Usually any other ***phobia or bigotry is immediately challenged. Transphobia never is, which bothers me greatly considering at least two members here (three not counting TOW) are trans.
I too remember what you said about my kids so don't stand in the pulpit.
What you seem to be forgetting was that your disgusting post was unprovoked. My one on the other hand, was written after much provocation from you. It doesn't excuse it I know but I don't think the two can be compared.
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I'm horrified.
Not by the attack. The attack absolutely sickened me. Even though it may not have driven by gender, the arsehole who filmed it thought it was.
(http://lezgetreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/fbmessages1.jpg)
He was fired. (http://lezgetreal.com/2011/04/baltimore-mcdonalds-fires-employee-who-filmed-attack/)
What horrifies me is the responses in this thread. I'm really at a loss for the right words.
You all need to go back and read my threads on trans issues, particularly the arguments I had with Hadron and Calandale about what defines a woman. I'm looking at you again Odeon. I can't believe you wheeled out the tired cliche that a woman is only her reproductive system (functional or not). You've basically wilfully denied identity to millions of intersex people and to millions of transpeople. According to you, I'll never be a woman, and Soph will always be a woman. Can you fathom how offensive that is?
To put it into an autism context, it's about as offensive as AutismSpeaks telling us that we're burdens to our families and whatever. You basically became AutismSpeaks. Telling us, Soph and I, us trans people, what we are and what we are not without actually taking trans-perspectives into account. Congratulations. You're an arsehole.
I seriously hope that none of your children are trans. Whilst I'd never wish being trans upon anyone, I think it'd be the cruellest thing to have to be trans and have parents like you.
Not that I think you're any decent at parenting anyway. I know this because of the hours I've spent researching how your parents your children, and time I've invested in understanding what's it's like to be a parents and all the difficulties thereof. I feel that I have enough information to declare you all bad parents.
In case you didn't realise, the previous paragraph was sarcastic. I know next to nothing about how your parent your children, and have no right to have any say on the validity of how you go about it. But somehow, you do have a valid right to tell me I'll never be a women. To tell me that calling me 'she' is too difficult for you, aww I'm sorry my existence is difficult for you (that last was dripping with bitter sarcasm).
You're wrong. I don't "want" to be a woman. I am a woman. This is not a psychological error any more than autism is. Both trans and autism are neurobiological in nature. Basically a physical error in the brain.
Neurobiological = Hardware
Psychological = Software
I am the way I am, trans, autistics, adhd, possibly dyslexic, whatever else, because of errors in my brain and brain chemistry. I didn't just wake up one day and think "I want to be a woman, la da di di da". My first memory of realising I was supposed to be a girl was when I was 9, though my childmind processed that as wanting. FUCKING 9 years of age. I also tried to commit suicide that year. AT FUCKING NINE! This has always been a long term thing for me, I always had to deal with these feelings, that I was not male. Do you even know how hard I fought to "be male"? You really have no idea what I put myself through. The levels of suppression I went, suppressing my emotions, putting up walls in my mind, blocking out thoughts and ideas. It was so so hard :(
And now I have to deal with the repercussions of that. I have to deal with trying to bring down those walls, to learn how to deal with emotions properly and not just mentally run away from them. The depressions I get into because I can't control my negative emotions. The freakouts I have because some idea or thought or comment has trigged something in my mind. THAT'S FUCKING PSYCHOLOGICAL. THAT'S BECAUSE I TRIED TO BE MALE.
But, since I have begun transitioning, I have begun to live. Before, when I was Joshua. I had no life. I merely existed. I had no dreams, no goals. I didn't care enough. I just wanted to stay home and lose myself in stories (tv shows, games, movies, books etc). I now have dreams. I now have goals. I now have a life. I'm going places, I'm doing stuff. I'm engaging with the world in ways I never even realised. Don't you dare take that away from me.
I do know how hard it is for those around me to process this. I know the shit I've put renaeden through, and I will be eternally sorry for that. But I can't change what I am. Just the shell I am in. And renaeden has become supportive of Kayleigh. I know she misses Joshua, and I feel for her. But he is no longer, he never existed. He was a shell personality, put in place to try and fit in with the world in the way everyone was telling me to.
People telling you can't do this, you can't do that. Just as you have done today.
Well. FUCK YOU. I'll be who I want to be. I am Kayleigh. A woman.
I would like to note that this post was only directed at people like Odeon, Callaway and Swearengen. This is intended to be my last post on this forum*. I don't need people like you in my life any more. I've moved on.
(*=I reserve the right to change my mind)
I still don't care Kayleigh/GA.
You have actually no real idea how anyone feels or thinks but are quite happy to latch on with the tenacity of a leg humping poodle to any bigotry defined, implied or in most cases imagined and try to rail against everyone and give us a Transgenderism 101 and a sermon or too for good measure.
We don't actually need to know or understand Transgenderism. Autism, sure. Transgenderism...not so much. We sure as hell don't need to take any notice of a self-righteous loser like yourself.
You are an arrogant blow-hard bigot and I have highlighted this before.
Post or don't post. I feel you bring fuck all to the forum as is and I doubt I will be crying at night mourning your absence.
Love
Al.
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I don't care about indifference to trans people. I care about indifference to transphobia, which seems all too apparent here. Usually any other ***phobia or bigotry is immediately challenged. Transphobia never is, which bothers me greatly considering at least two members here (three not counting TOW) are trans.
I too remember what you said about my kids so don't stand in the pulpit.
What you seem to be forgetting was that your disgusting post was unprovoked. My one on the other hand, was written after much provocation from you. It doesn't excuse it I know but I don't think the two can be compared.
Bint let me put it a little simpler to you. You to me are about the same level of credibility and value as Sol or Razorbeard.
I really think the transphobia happening in the forum leading up to this latest bullshit...is simply in your feeble head and you are just attention whoring again.
I may be wrong and I don't care if that is the case.
It is you after all.
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GA, a few points:
I did not make those definitions. They were there long before I was conceived or you decided you are really a woman in a man's body. You find it offensive that I won't accept your changing those definitions? Tough.
I'm autistic but I have always considered autism to be disability. It's fucked up wiring or something--what is not important in this context--but it also happens to define a lot of who I am. It's an inseparable part of me. Why it happened is less important because it still defines me and I am what I am. It doesn't offend me the least if the rest of the population thinks "disability" because that disability is an undeniable fact. The world is mostly made of people who don't have that disability.
In that same way, it should not matter to you *why* you feel the way you do. Is it a larger biological error (I use "larger" simply because I am assuming that such an error is more complex) or is it a wiring problem in the brain, such as I am assuming autism to be? Doesn't really matter to you because you will still be you. I don't know why you are trans and I don't care. I also doubt you know why, but you are not being objective about it. Instead you require me and everybody else to follow your subjective party line as to the "why", including the definitions you now like to change to suit your purposes, and are offended when we won't.
Doesn't work that way. Sulk all you want but I remain basically indifferent and will use the definitions I consider to make sense and follow a biological reality as far as I can determine. If scientists find plausible cause to change these definitions, I will probably change mine, but it takes more than subjective views and sulking.
Oh, and bye.
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Les if you don't care why do you continue posting?
Oh and:
Nothing to back it, but why not throw it out there. I mean you are a credible type Soph.
You really want something to roll on the floor laughing over? I am going to make an imaginary scenario and see if you can see how comical this is. Imagine a woman in her early 20's. Imagine them a skinny, small boobed, high-voiced and plain faced. Imagine them as identifying themselves as male. They are interested in women and consider themselves a transgendered heterosexual man.
They lust after women like most heterosexual men but of course comes the interesting question. What sort of woman would want such a person and what and more so HOW would they find them sexually appealing? See a transgendered person like this would "look" like , sound like, be cultured and socialised as a female. So...the transgendered person would be "projecting as best they can as a male and any female that may be attracted are likely to have to either be attracted to that person who is for all intents female (a plain, skinny, nondescript, tomboy-dressed one - but one nevertheless), and have to get their mind over the whole different mental gender to the physical one.
May be easier for perhaps a lesbian female or bi-sexual female to make that mental divide and be attracted as though the person was a lesbian girl. I mean it would be semantics really. Except of course to the transgendered person. But let's say this plain looking person who looks like a plain girl, sounds like a plain girl and behaves....well pretty much like a plain girl, manages someone to get a girl into bed. Suddenly the REALLY funny bit happen (ready for teh real rotfl bit). You have a physical girl who for reasons which are probably funny in their own right wanting to screw this "man". What does our transgendered man have to make this meeting a success? They have wooed them as a male but don't have the "equipment". Mentally they have projected male and got this interest on board as a male. They have sold the image and now it is time for physically carry through with the contract.
Physical reality is girl on girl sex is lesbian sex and that is all they can offer. But do them want a lesbian experience with their love interest. Sexual experience will be tainted in the transgendered person's mind as knowing they probably were just attracted to them as a woman to a woman and the satisfaction (or not due to the physical attraction of form. A female form.
Now that sounds quite daunting. If I was that transgendered person I would be shit scared and completely screwed up and avoid sex. In fact I would probably be a virgin into my 20's.
What a total fuck up that person would be huh? A total fucking Idiot. :lol: Soph you still rofl? Funny huh?
No need to thank me :thumbup:
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What's with all the guests here? I noticed this flocking after GA's post.
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I don't care about indifference to trans people. I care about indifference to transphobia, which seems all too apparent here. Usually any other ***phobia or bigotry is immediately challenged. Transphobia never is, which bothers me greatly considering at least two members here (three not counting TOW) are trans.
I too remember what you said about my kids so don't stand in the pulpit.
What you seem to be forgetting was that your disgusting post was unprovoked. My one on the other hand, was written after much provocation from you. It doesn't excuse it I know but I don't think the two can be compared.
I treat every member here the same, basically, because trying to treat some with kid gloves or whatever it is you require is too much work. How these people treat me can change the way I treat them, but that's about it. The fact that some are trans will, in other words, not change a lot. Soph is the one to give me the most trouble because right from the start I had difficulty determining his gender so those labels probably changed from one day to the next. Soph is usually funny and witty and open to debate, and therefore fun to talk to, especially with this second account. The first was a bit too emo for me.
GA, on the other hand, is far too sensitive for a board like this, far too likely to take offence when people are simply voicing opinions without a personal investment. He is highly subjective and will often confuse the issues at hand, IMO.
And Squiddy (not sure I'm right in including him here but I'm pretty sure he won't care) is a lot of fun. Doesn't take himself too seriously, is witty and open, and is secure enough to ignore a grumpy old man like me inadvertently stepping on sensitive toes.
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Thank you? I still don't give a shit.
I also do not see the point you are trying to make. Have I purposely tried to have a go at Soph before? Yes. Was it visceral? Yes. Have I denied it ever? Nope.
Try for a point Bint/Blasted
http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,13367.0.html
Blasted
The reason why...
« on: January 31, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »
Sir Les' son is miserable in these pics is probably coz Les fucks him up the arse everyday before bedtime. Something should be done about this Sad
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 06:13:31 PM by parts » [/b]
This was charming too BTW and you don't need to thank me.
Oh and my reason for continuing to post. We have been over this a number of times and it doesn't sink in so i truly wonder why you keep asking. The reason will be the same each time. I post because i am reactive. I see, I react, I type, I hit post and I hit show unread posts and go from there. Next time you ask the response will be the same.
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What's with all the guests here? I noticed this flocking after GA's post.
Love is in the air, simple as that. :zoinks:
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Did Bint actually make any real point or was she just spewing emotional disjointed vitriol?
It is a big ask is it? Back your assertions? When challenged she trots out any unrelated points rather than backs her original assertions and in effects derails her own thread.
Is her assertion that Transgendered people in society are marginalised?
Is it that there has been an expressed and continued disregard for transgendered people here?
Is it that Transgendered members are marginalised here?
Is it that Transphobia is rampant on I2?
Is it that in times gone by Soph, Me and Bint have got more than a little horrid with each other?
Is it that members ought to be sharing the same values as her or as Soph or Kayleigh (and if so .... why the fuck should we?)?
As I say comprehension is not the issue. Make a claim. Make it well. Back your assertions and try to make it at least a little meaningful to us.
If we say we don't care and you think we should, then why?
If you say we are all transphobic then prove a claim or at least give a decent account as to show why.
If you say that people are being arseholes in society and marginalising transphobic people then apart from us saying "Yeah that is because transgender people are in a minority - like racist, religious intolerance, homophobia and bigotry of any diversity - it happens and will continue to happen and we understand this as being a marginalised group ourselves, so what?"
If you say people are indifferent to attacks made in public against others and will do anything but defend or get involved 9 times out of 10, again yup that is life....so what?
Back your point and stop jumping around everywhere and getting your knickers in a knot. Back your claim and explain your viewpoint.
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Just a few random points as I can't be arsed quoting and addressing people specifically:
Bint's post(s?) about your kids was obviously fucked up and wrong, but she's accepted that and admited that herself. That post to me about me being trans though wasn't just aimed at me, it was towards a group of people as a whole. I'm not saying it was worse than attacking someone's child (as I don't think much that can be said on the internet is worse than that), but it's more relevant to this discussion than that post about your kid, as it was transphobia.
I mean there have been plenty of times on here where I've deserved to be attacked for being an asshole, but surely I deserve to be attacked for ME, not for what I am? Because that isn't just directed at me then - it's directed at a lot of other people too
For example if I was black and I was being a dickhead, would people start throwing racist abuse at me? Or anti-Jewish insults if I was Jewish? imo that would be wrong. Attacking me, my views, my posts, my actions etc is obviously fine, but I think attackign someone for being trans just makes you look weak
As for other people's definitions, people can define things however they like. I agree with Kayleigh that people should refer to someone as he or she depending on what that person identifies as, but that's just my opinion. If people wanna call me she, then they obviously have the right to. I must admit I do wonder why a lot of people still refer to me as she, but I'm not gonna insist people do otherwise, and I hope I never resort to asking people to call me he, as I'd feel like a bit of a pussy if I did that (not saying there's anything wrong with other people doing that tho).
About the video, yeah people are indifferent and won't get involved in someone getting beated up a lot, whether trans or not. So as shitty as it is, I'm not really interested in discussing the video much, although the comments by the person who filmed it say a lot
Also just wanna say i think renaeden is being really great about this by now calling GA she instead of he. I can't imagine what it must be lie to go through something like this, and is one of the reasons I'm glad I accepted being trans fairly early on in life, although I doubt I'd have ever got into a relationship anyway, but you never know.
And yeah my first account on here was 100% emo, embarrrassing to see my old posts :laugh:
I still have my emo moments but I try to keep it to the minimum, and I think a lot of us get emo sometimes really
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wow thazt post was longer than I meant it to be, sorry :P
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Also just wanna say i think renaeden is being really great about this by now calling GA she instead of he. I can't imagine what it must be lie to go through something like this, and is one of the reasons I'm glad I accepted being trans fairly early on in life, although I doubt I'd have ever got into a relationship anyway, but you never know.
Thanks for saying that. I have recently just thought that I want GA to be happy in whatever she does and if calling her by her desired pronoun makes her feel happy then good. It doesn't solve everything between us but it helps. Because of her I understand trans people more and am more open-minded about it so I see that as a good thing too.
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wow thazt post was longer than I meant it to be, sorry :P
That is about half the size of my average post. You don't have any reason to apologise.
As to answering the post. Think back Soph. I was attacking everything that you held of value and identified with. Your gender, your sexuality, your pets, pretty well anything. Why?
To piss you off.
Saying horrible things about Transgendered people or saying horrid things about your pets...it was not nice but it was in response to behaviours from you and Bint that I did not like an did was far from the only one (though i was by far the most brutal).
As I said then and now. All's fair. Shots were fired from you and Bint, my direction and my direction back and visa versa.
So do I consider it better or worse? I see it all as about on par. I did not whine or complaint or ask either of you to stop or apologise at any point.
Am I transphobic? No. I do reserve the right to like or hate or be indifferent to any individual and occasionally I do flame and am prepared to up the ante and get rather visceral and nasty, depending on provocation or desired effect.
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Oh god, don't even get me started on he/she. Funny story - I've always referred to Soph as a he. Until Facebook. Then I don't want to say she, because I view him as a he, but I know his Mum is on there. So one day when Carla was worried about Soph and I was trying to respond and needed to do it in 3 sentences, I referred to Soph in the third person in every sentence simply because I didn't know any other way to do it. I went back later and read it and laughed out loud because it looked absurd. :laugh:
Gay, straight, bi, trans, crossdressers. have friends who fall under those categories. Doesn't bother me in the least. It's the person I care about, not the title.
LOL, yeah, the times I am on FB, I do have to think on how to address Soph too. :lol:
Indifference, yeah, people are fucked up.
Whenever I read things like this, it makes me think of a time when a grown-up woman told me, that she had seen how my 9 year old brother, one of the friends of her son, had gotten beaten up badly by two 12 year olds. She did not intervene, why would she? She just watched and passed by, and had a really saucy story to tell.
Fucked up big time. And alas, that will happen always and everywhere. .
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And Squiddy (not sure I'm right in including him here but I'm pretty sure he won't care) is a lot of fun. Doesn't take himself too seriously, is witty and open, and is secure enough to ignore a grumpy old man like me inadvertently stepping on sensitive toes.
Aww , I'm blushing! :emb:
And no I'm not too bothered about being mentioned here , I'm aware my gender and my behaviour can confuse people , I don't really bother with gender tbh.
I am biologically male I know that , but I just say i'm gender neutral with my psychological state taken into account.
hopefully that makes sense :lol:
I get confused about Squiddy, though even though he is not transgender, he still talks about make up and cleavage and stuff? It confuses me.
The cleavage thing is a joke , it comes from how I do things like trick Razorbeard into believing i'm female :thumbup:
As for the make up , I do occasionally wear make up but it's more of a gothic/alternative fashion thing than wanting to be teh laydee :P
(I do openly wear nail varnishes though , it's too purty for me to avoid :laugh:)
TL;DR
I've never understood what that stands for. :orly:
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TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read." It's kind of a deflating thing to say in response to any long post.
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TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read." It's kind of a deflating thing to say in response to any long post.
Ahhhh.
Thanks Helpful weeble :2thumbsup: :plus:
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TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read." It's kind of a deflating thing to say in response to any long post.
Ahhhh.
Thanks Helpful weeble :2thumbsup: :plus:
You are most welcome, curious young cephalopod! :thumbup:
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TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read." It's kind of a deflating thing to say in response to any long post.
Why would it be deflating to be graced with a useful punctuation mark? :toporly:
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And Squiddy (not sure I'm right in including him here but I'm pretty sure he won't care) is a lot of fun. Doesn't take himself too seriously, is witty and open, and is secure enough to ignore a grumpy old man like me inadvertently stepping on sensitive toes.
Aww , I'm blushing! :emb:
And no I'm not too bothered about being mentioned here , I'm aware my gender and my behaviour can confuse people , I don't really bother with gender tbh.
I am biologically male I know that , but I just say i'm gender neutral with my psychological state taken into account.
hopefully that makes sense :lol:
I get confused about Squiddy, though even though he is not transgender, he still talks about make up and cleavage and stuff? It confuses me.
The cleavage thing is a joke , it comes from how I do things like trick Razorbeard into believing i'm female :thumbup:
As for the make up , I do occasionally wear make up but it's more of a gothic/alternative fashion thing than wanting to be teh laydee :P
(I do openly wear nail varnishes though , it's too purty for me to avoid :laugh:)
Ah I get it now. I was confused along with Razorbeard.
I sometimes think I am gender neutral as well. I know there are pronouns for that but I will just stay being called she.
Thanks for replying to my post. Less confused now. :)
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And Squiddy (not sure I'm right in including him here but I'm pretty sure he won't care) is a lot of fun. Doesn't take himself too seriously, is witty and open, and is secure enough to ignore a grumpy old man like me inadvertently stepping on sensitive toes.
Aww , I'm blushing! :emb:
And no I'm not too bothered about being mentioned here , I'm aware my gender and my behaviour can confuse people , I don't really bother with gender tbh.
I am biologically male I know that , but I just say i'm gender neutral with my psychological state taken into account.
hopefully that makes sense :lol:
I get confused about Squiddy, though even though he is not transgender, he still talks about make up and cleavage and stuff? It confuses me.
The cleavage thing is a joke , it comes from how I do things like trick Razorbeard into believing i'm female :thumbup:
As for the make up , I do occasionally wear make up but it's more of a gothic/alternative fashion thing than wanting to be teh laydee :P
(I do openly wear nail varnishes though , it's too purty for me to avoid :laugh:)
Ah I get it now. I was confused along with Razorbeard.
I sometimes think I am gender neutral as well. I know there are pronouns for that but I will just stay being called she.
Thanks for replying to my post. Less confused now. :)
No problem , I am a bit of an enigma when it comes to gender pronouns it seems :lol:
A fair few straight friends treat me as a female friend (more male than female) but eh , I'm not to bothered how people percieve me anymore :P
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Bint's post(s?) about your kids was obviously fucked up and wrong, but she's accepted that and admited that herself.
Actually she admitted it with a qualifier.
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Bint's post(s?) about your kids was obviously fucked up and wrong, but she's accepted that and admited that herself.
Actually she admitted it with a qualifier.
What qualifier?
In this thread u mean?
I meant in general.
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And yes--there is obviously transphobia and whatnot in society, yes, but not a whole lot of it here. Bint seems to disagree so I'm interested in any examples she cares to send my way.
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Bint's post(s?) about your kids was obviously fucked up and wrong, but she's accepted that and admited that herself.
Actually she admitted it with a qualifier.
What qualifier?
In this thread u mean?
I meant in general.
In this thread. Can't be arsed to go back and link to it, but the idea was "yes, I was wrong but since you were being an arse it's really not that bad". An before anyone reacts, I'm paraphrasing. I'm telling you how I perceived her admission, not necessarily what she meant by it.
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She did say "It doesn't excuse it I know" after mentioning how it came after abuse from Les
There's nothing I can say on that though really
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And yes--there is obviously transphobia and whatnot in society, yes, but not a whole lot of it here. Bint seems to disagree so I'm interested in any examples she cares to send my way.
There hasn't been much outright transphobia lately, but there has been in the past, especially from people like Scrap
Also that time when me and Les were giving each other shit. It eventually ended up with a lot of members attacking me for being trans. I can't remember exactly who said what, but it did include threads being made taking the piss out of it etc
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And yes--there is obviously transphobia and whatnot in society, yes, but not a whole lot of it here. Bint seems to disagree so I'm interested in any examples she cares to send my way.
There hasn't been much outright transphobia lately, but there has been in the past, especially from people like Scrap
Also that time when me and Les were giving each other shit. It eventually ended up with a lot of members attacking me for being trans. I can't remember exactly who said what, but it did include threads being made taking the piss out of it etc
Much? Any? What has bought all this bullshit up now Soph?
Bint has made much mention of people being transphobic here (and it is rather pointed) and so to my way of thinking it is a very thin line to draw to (two years ago?) to what one or two people may or may not have said to get you both to stop being the idiots you were being then.
Fact is that I know I was being an arsehole. I thought you and Bint were too. I wanted to piss you two off and it certainly appears after all this time i did at that.
For the record, not that it matters but I am sure that you both no more wanted me to have a heart attack and die or thought I was a pedophile, than I wanted your dog to be served up as a dish or that I had issues with you being transgender. We posted stuff like that in an attempt to get to each other though.
I suspect others at the time for similar reasons posted similar things.
So let's take this all out of the equation as for what it was. Not Transphobia but people being mean to each other to piss each other off. Bit more honest that way.
So what is Bint's point and where are here examples of the transphobic culture here (excluding the above covered already).
You did mention "There hasn't been much outright transphobia lately" where is the examples of the little bits of transphobia and where are Bint's other assertions.
I still don't see her backing her point.
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Much? Any? What has bought all this bullshit up now Soph?
Because I was asked. Well Bint was asked, but she's not here so I asnwered.
Bit more honest that way.
I don't think I am being dishonest. It would be dishonest for me to say i DIDN'T thing some people here were transphobic. And i wasn't actually talking about you then. I only mentioned you when I was explaining when - it was during all that shit between me and you.
where is the examples of the little bits of transphobia and where are Bint's other assertions.
Little digs mostly. And no I don't mean light hearted ones like squiddy taking the piss out of me or whatever. I mean stuff that really does come across as malicious. I'm not gonna go through posts and find every little thing I think shows what is imo transphobia though.
For what it's worth, I think this place is a LOT bettter than IRL when it comes to gender/trans stuff. I'm not saying people here are any worse than the people I meet in person. I just thing quite a few here are probably insecure about their own masculinity/sexuality and deflect that onto me. And before you get all defensive, no I don't mean you
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And yes--there is obviously transphobia and whatnot in society, yes, but not a whole lot of it here. Bint seems to disagree so I'm interested in any examples she cares to send my way.
There hasn't been much outright transphobia lately, but there has been in the past, especially from people like Scrap
Also that time when me and Les were giving each other shit. It eventually ended up with a lot of members attacking me for being trans. I can't remember exactly who said what, but it did include threads being made taking the piss out of it etc
Sir Les acknowledged as much, re your rows.
The transgendered have been getting far less shit here than some much larger groups of people.
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which groups?
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which groups?
Retarded pig-fuckers from Tennessee for one.
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which groups?
Retarded pig-fuckers from Tennessee for one.
That's true. Pentagram isn't as stupid as Richard was.
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which groups?
Muslims. Christians. Religious people in general. You've been known to start threads about Muslims with subject lines far more derogatory than anything said about transgendered folks here.
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hahaha KNEW you were gonn say muslims :laugh:
I still think that is way different. Religion is fair-game imo. It's not the same as sex/ethnicity/sexuality/gender etc
Also I think most people here are strongly AGAINST anti-religion stuff. The only people I've noticed really against muslims are me, scrap and PPK. And me and scrap are very against religion in general
My anti-religion threads, well the muslim ones at least, are 99% piss-taking
And I don't think I've said anything as bad about muslims (even jokingly) as the commens I've had on here about Brendan Teena (transguy who was murdered) for example
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which groups?
Muslims. Christians. Religious people in general. You've been known to start threads about Muslims with subject lines far more derogatory than anything said about transgendered folks here.
Very large groups of people:
Anyone who isn't a strict atheist.
Parents who don't meet your exacting standards.
People who disagree with you on any given topic.
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My anti-religion threads, well the muslim ones at least, are 99% piss-taking
And from what I am reading here, the anti-trans threads are also 99% piss-taking. So what is the difference? You belong to one group and not the other?
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As long as trans dont look like a man, or disfigured, I can go crazy on them. :green:
To me its simple. If you look and act like a girl, then you're a girl, and the female form gets me frisky. :laugh:
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which groups?
Muslims. Christians. Religious people in general. You've been known to start threads about Muslims with subject lines far more derogatory than anything said about transgendered folks here.
Very large groups of people:
Anyone who isn't a strict atheist.
Parents who don't meet your exacting standards.
People who disagree with you on any given topic.
Yes I am very strongly anti-religious. Addressed that above though. And one of my closest friends I've had on here (milla) is not atheist at all. In fact she has alsorts of weird beliefs, and I think nothing bad of her for that at all.
I also have my ownviews on parenting, yes. But I am not a parent and most likely never will be, so I don't pretend I know it all. If you're talking about my posts about my family situation, then I'd raher not go into that on here anyway
And I don't think I'm that bad to people who disagree with me. No worse than most on here anyway. In fact I quite like discussing opinions on thigns with people. I don't think I know ANYONE who agrees with me on everything
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My anti-religion threads, well the muslim ones at least, are 99% piss-taking
And from what I am reading here, the anti-trans threads are also 99% piss-taking. So what is the difference? You belong to one group and not the other?
As I said before, I'm not talking about the piss-taking ones. if you'd read my earlier posts you'd see I mentioned something about squiddy making piss-taking posts as well. I see nothing wrong with that
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I've also said beefore that I would happily have a relationship with a religious person (although it is very unlikely a muslim or catholic girl would be interested in someone like me lol)
I guess I am too quick to assume it is obvious when I am being serious or not on here, when in reality most people who don't know me that well can't actually tell
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Heinrich looks like a ninja :orly:
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I just need a sword now :arrr:
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My anti-religion threads, well the muslim ones at least, are 99% piss-taking
And from what I am reading here, the anti-trans threads are also 99% piss-taking. So what is the difference? You belong to one group and not the other?
As I said before, I'm not talking about the piss-taking ones. if you'd read my earlier posts you'd see I mentioned something about squiddy making piss-taking posts as well. I see nothing wrong with that
The little girly man likes when I take the piss out of him. :orly:
It's funny because it's ironic. :lol:
I just need a sword now :arrr:
Trans Ninjas are :viking:
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*Walks in, shamelessly struts for the "ladies"*
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I just need a sword now :arrr:
you can buy those at the store !
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I don't think it would be safe to have a sword in my house - not when I have a weapons-obsessed 6 year old brother who's constantly stealing from my room :P
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oh, you meant a real sword
*embarrassed*
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oh, you meant a real sword
*embarrassed*
I was going to say!
Guns in the 2n'd amendment is one thing , but swords too?! :orly:
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DON'T FUCKING TOUCH SWORDS!
THEY WILL FUCKING CUT YOU WIDE OPEN!
(http://youchew.net/wiki/images/2/21/Tripfisk.jpg)
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Swords are braver than guns because you have to actually get up close to your victim, therefore giving them a chance to defend themselves
I wanna fire a gun though
I have never even held a real gun myself
I want a real MP38/40 :green:
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Swords are braver than guns because you have to actually get up close to your victim, therefore giving them a chance to defend themselves
I wanna fire a gun though
I have never even held a real gun myself
I want a real MP38/40 :green:
Feel the power of the dark side, Soph! :vader: :evillaugh:
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hahaha KNEW you were gonn say muslims :laugh:
I still think that is way different. Religion is fair-game imo. It's not the same as sex/ethnicity/sexuality/gender etc
Also I think most people here are strongly AGAINST anti-religion stuff. The only people I've noticed really against muslims are me, scrap and PPK. And me and scrap are very against religion in general
My anti-religion threads, well the muslim ones at least, are 99% piss-taking
And I don't think I've said anything as bad about muslims (even jokingly) as the commens I've had on here about Brendan Teena (transguy who was murdered) for example
How is religion different? How is the muslim-bashing only piss-taking while discussing definitions with certain trans people hurts their sensitive feelings enough to have them quit the board? Is it the size of the group in question? That the common denominator of one group puts you off while you happen to share the other's? How is it different and when were you appointed to define what's OK and what's not?
That's just so much bullshit I can't believe you can't see it.
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A while ago parts made a comment about Kayleigh and no one apart from Soph challenged him.
Was waiting for you to answer Odeon's quiestion of which comment before asking, why didn't you challenge him as well?
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A while ago parts made a comment about Kayleigh and no one apart from Soph challenged him.
Grow up and get a sense of humor.
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hahaha KNEW you were gonn say muslims :laugh:
I still think that is way different. Religion is fair-game imo. It's not the same as sex/ethnicity/sexuality/gender etc
Also I think most people here are strongly AGAINST anti-religion stuff. The only people I've noticed really against muslims are me, scrap and PPK. And me and scrap are very against religion in general
My anti-religion threads, well the muslim ones at least, are 99% piss-taking
And I don't think I've said anything as bad about muslims (even jokingly) as the commens I've had on here about Brendan Teena (transguy who was murdered) for example
How is religion different? How is the muslim-bashing only piss-taking while discussing definitions with certain trans people hurts their sensitive feelings enough to have them quit the board? Is it the size of the group in question? That the common denominator of one group puts you off while you happen to share the other's? How is it different and when were you appointed to define what's OK and what's not?
That's just so much bullshit I can't believe you can't see it.
Religion is different as it's belief. Just like attacking me for being atheist is fine. Attacking someone for WHAT they are is just weak
My muslim basking is piss-taking because that's what it is. What else can I say there? If someone's taking the piss with trans stuff, that is taking the piss too (as I've said at least twice in this thread already). I'm not sure what GA leaving has to do with my muslim-bashing.
And as for who appointed me to define what's ok and what's not, obviously this is all in my opinion. I kinda thought that was clear.
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Odeon, here is the post I was referring to:
Galileo Ace had a sex change operation and posts from time to time as Kayleigh.
GA hasn't had a sex change operation but does post as Kayleigh now.
I thought she had the operation. Sorry
No he learned to "tuck" :zoinks:
And? Being trans makes him more sensitive to jokes?
I have no problems with people being trans. Whatever floats anyone's boat, etc. I'm basically indifferent, but anything hinting at special treatment is also a no-no for me.
:agreed:
I don't believe that Parts saying that GA didn't have an operation but has learned to "tuck" was a transphobic statement.
I thought it was meant humorously, too.
I do wonder how a MTF who didn't learn to tuck would wear a tight or clinging skirt or pants without sporting a penis bulge, though.
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Swords are braver than guns because you have to actually get up close to your victim, therefore giving them a chance to defend themselves
I wanna fire a gun though
I have never even held a real gun myself
I want a real MP38/40 :green:
I have fired rifles but never a real pistol. :-\
On the other hand I have some pretty big mortars, even if they are made for fireworks and not to consider real guns. You load them with old fashion black powder. :viking:
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:agreed:
I don't believe that Parts saying that GA didn't have an operation but has learned to "tuck" was a transphobic statement.
I thought it was meant humorously, too.
I do wonder how a MTF who didn't learn to tuck would wear a tight or clinging skirt or pants without sporting a penis bulge, though.
Kayleigh has also had the opportunity to voice upset, it it indeed existed.
You need to tuck better
Tucking is difficult...
Tucking is difficult...
Use duct tape then :zoinks:
Been there, done that. :asthing:
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I do wonder how a MTF who didn't learn to tuck would wear a tight or clinging skirt or pants without sporting a penis bulge, though.
With the help of hormones?
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I don't think parts' comment was transphobic in itself. I think what Bint was getting at is the continued "humourous" comments that DO come across as bitchy and pathetic. It's one thing for people who get on well and exchange banter among themselves to take the piss out of each other like that, but what some of the guys here say about kayleigh does, to me, seem like transphobia when you take it all together.
I responded to that comment by parts because of that.
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I do wonder how a MTF who didn't learn to tuck would wear a tight or clinging skirt or pants without sporting a penis bulge, though.
With the help of hormones?
I don't think all the estrogen in the world is going to make someone's penis disappear, although it might shrink the testicles somewhat.
What it will do is exacerbate mood swings, which may be why GA seems even more sensitive than normal lately.
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Estrogen and testosterone blockers shrink the penis and testes
Sorry Callaway, but I will take the word of actually MTFs over yours here. Unless you have experience in shrinking your penis yourself? ;)
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Estrogen and testosterone blockers shrink the penis and testes
Sorry Callaway, but I will take the word of actually MTFs over yours here. Unless you have experience in shrinking your penis yourself? ;)
I looked on a TG clinic website at a handout they give MTFs considering estrogen therapy, but if you prefer to rely on anecdotal evidence, that's OK too.
Estrogen won’t make your penis go away. It can cause your testicles (and your prostate) to shrink.
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I don't think anyone's claiming that estrogen makes the penis magically disappear...?
And again, I'll take the word of someone who's experienced it first hand over yours
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Changed my mind just slightly. One last post before my account is deleted per request.
I might be a self important blow hard. But I'm hardly arrogant (any more), or bigoted. I find it laughable that a troll like yourself, Les, would call me bigoted in the face of all these transphobic comments here.
And yes. They were and are transphobic. "I won't call GA she because it's too difficult blah blah", that's transphobia. "You're not a woman because a woman is x,y,z" that's transphobia. And transmisogyny.
I would invite you all to read about privilege. Specifically cisgender privilege (cis is the opposite of trans, so cisgender is someone who identifies with their coercively assigned gender).
http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Cisgender_Privilege
The penis can shrink with HRT. I know first hand. My endocrinologist told me it was a possibility. He also said that the testes will shrink, and they did.
In the FAQ you quoted Callaway, it seems blatantly obvious that they're referring to the penis disappearing entirely. I have to suspect that you're just twisting it to serve the point you started to argue before realising you couldn't win it.
I'm also beginning to wonder if all those callouts against you had some merit. Though I do recall at the time, unlike some arselickers around here, I actually took the time to consider them from all angles.
I have to say I love your comment about hormones and mood swings. Not only is that transphobic and transmisogynic, but it's also straight up misogyny...And you're a woman! Hilarious stuff, comedy gold.
Yes, HRT has afforded me the wonderfully uncontrollable ability to swing my moods about. But ask renaeden to support this, I took about an hour or so to compose my thoughts before replying to this thread. I wasn't just reacting like some sensitive teenage girl (which I probably am at this point of my 2nd puberty, but eh *shrugs*).
Am I too sensitive for I2? Yeah probably. But I think it's a good thing. I do worry about all of you and how insensitive you've all become over the years. I think for some of you I2 has become a little fantasy world you can lose yourselves in, where there are no rules and requirements of tact and regarding for others' feelings. I may be too sensitive for I2, but I worry that some of you, maybe all of you are becoming too insensitive for the real world.
I'm sure someone is going to reply "THIS ISN'T THE REAL WORLD, IT'S THE INTERENTS HURR DURR", but my Dad had a saying. "If you do it in training, you do it in the game." Basically this means that any practised behaviour will become part of your overall behaviour. The more bigoted, insensitive, self centred and arrogant you all become here the more you will become out there.
And don't kid yourselves. This thread is a prime example of some of the worst arrogance I have ever seen on this forum. "*I* will never call you she because *I* don't think you meet the criteria of *my* idea of a woman" that's pretty damn arrogant right there.
I freely admit I have been arrogant in my time here. Really really really arrogant. But I've never been a bigot, except maybe to religions.
So why is religion a fair target and transpeople aren't? Why are transpeople a fair target and Odeon's family is not?
Why is anything a fair target?
Nothing should be a 'fair' target. I've attacked religion in the past because of the things it has done that is worthy of attack. It's bigoted nature. A lot religions are about control and power. Keep the masses worshipping the cloud-man, and they won't notice that the priests hold all the power. And then there's the extremists...Christian, Muslim, any religious extremist (perhaps with the exception of atheist extremists) are very dangerous people that are willing to kill to further their cause. That belief system right there is worth attacking.
What harm do trans people do that is worth attacking?
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...
The penis can shrink with HRT. I know first hand. My endocrinologist told me it was a possibility. He also said that the testes will shrink, and they did.
In the FAQ you quoted Callaway, it seems blatantly obvious that they're referring to the penis disappearing entirely. I have to suspect that you're just twisting it to serve the point you started to argue before realising you couldn't win it.
I'm also beginning to wonder if all those callouts against you had some merit. Though I do recall at the time, unlike some arselickers around here, I actually took the time to consider them from all angles.
I have to say I love your comment about hormones and mood swings. Not only is that transphobic and transmisogynic, but it's also straight up misogyny...And you're a woman! Hilarious stuff, comedy gold.
Yes, HRT has afforded me the wonderfully uncontrollable ability to swing my moods about. But ask renaeden to support this, I took about an hour or so to compose my thoughts before replying to this thread. I wasn't just reacting like some sensitive teenage girl (which I probably am at this point of my 2nd puberty, but eh *shrugs*).
Am I too sensitive for I2? Yeah probably. But I think it's a good thing. I do worry about all of you and how insensitive you've all become over the years. I think for some of you I2 has become a little fantasy world you can lose yourselves in, where there are no rules and requirements of tact and regarding for others' feelings. I may be too sensitive for I2, but I worry that some of you, maybe all of you are becoming too insensitive for the real world.
I'm sure someone is going to reply "THIS ISN'T THE REAL WORLD, IT'S THE INTERENTS HURR DURR", but my Dad had a saying. "If you do it in training, you do it in the game." Basically this means that any practised behaviour will become part of your overall behaviour. The more bigoted, insensitive, self centred and arrogant you all become here the more you will become out there.
And don't kid yourselves. This thread is a prime example of some of the worst arrogance I have ever seen on this forum. "*I* will never call you she because *I* don't think you meet the criteria of *my* idea of a woman" that's pretty damn arrogant right there.
I freely admit I have been arrogant in my time here. Really really really arrogant. But I've never been a bigot, except maybe to religions.
So why is religion a fair target and transpeople aren't? Why are transpeople a fair target and Odeon's family is not?
Why is anything a fair target?
Nothing should be a 'fair' target. I've attacked religion in the past because of the things it has done that is worthy of attack. It's bigoted nature. A lot religions are about control and power. Keep the masses worshipping the cloud-man, and they won't notice that the priests hold all the power. And then there's the extremists...Christian, Muslim, any religious extremist (perhaps with the exception of atheist extremists) are very dangerous people that are willing to kill to further their cause. That belief system right there is worth attacking.
What harm do trans people do that is worth attacking?
Please read what I actually said, GA.
I do wonder how a MTF who didn't learn to tuck would wear a tight or clinging skirt or pants without sporting a penis bulge, though.
With the help of hormones?
I don't think all the estrogen in the world is going to make someone's penis disappear, although it might shrink the testicles somewhat.
What it will do is exacerbate mood swings, which may be why GA seems even more sensitive than normal lately.
Do you still have a penis after taking estrogen? If so, then I believe that I was correct in what I said.
You do seem much more sensitive than before since you have started taking the anti-androgens and then the estrogen.
That's not transphobic or misogynistic. That's just the truth.
I think that it's interesting that you argue why you think it's OK to be bigoted and attack someone because of their religion, while you claim that anyone who doesn't respond to you in exactly the way that you dictate is bigoted and transphobic.
While we are on the subject of my call-outs, I think one of them was about me defending you when you felt bullied by Hadron and Peaguy.
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Changed my mind just slightly. One last post before my account is deleted per request.
I might be a self important blow hard. But I'm hardly arrogant (any more), or bigoted. I find it laughable that a troll like yourself, Les, would call me bigoted in the face of all these transphobic comments here.
And yes. They were and are transphobic. "I won't call GA she because it's too difficult blah blah", that's transphobia. "You're not a woman because a woman is x,y,z" that's transphobia. And transmisogyny.
I would invite you all to read about privilege. Specifically cisgender privilege (cis is the opposite of trans, so cisgender is someone who identifies with their coercively assigned gender).
http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Cisgender_Privilege
The penis can shrink with HRT. I know first hand. My endocrinologist told me it was a possibility. He also said that the testes will shrink, and they did.
In the FAQ you quoted Callaway, it seems blatantly obvious that they're referring to the penis disappearing entirely. I have to suspect that you're just twisting it to serve the point you started to argue before realising you couldn't win it.
I'm also beginning to wonder if all those callouts against you had some merit. Though I do recall at the time, unlike some arselickers around here, I actually took the time to consider them from all angles.
I have to say I love your comment about hormones and mood swings. Not only is that transphobic and transmisogynic, but it's also straight up misogyny...And you're a woman! Hilarious stuff, comedy gold.
Yes, HRT has afforded me the wonderfully uncontrollable ability to swing my moods about. But ask renaeden to support this, I took about an hour or so to compose my thoughts before replying to this thread. I wasn't just reacting like some sensitive teenage girl (which I probably am at this point of my 2nd puberty, but eh *shrugs*).
Am I too sensitive for I2? Yeah probably. But I think it's a good thing. I do worry about all of you and how insensitive you've all become over the years. I think for some of you I2 has become a little fantasy world you can lose yourselves in, where there are no rules and requirements of tact and regarding for others' feelings. I may be too sensitive for I2, but I worry that some of you, maybe all of you are becoming too insensitive for the real world.
I'm sure someone is going to reply "THIS ISN'T THE REAL WORLD, IT'S THE INTERENTS HURR DURR", but my Dad had a saying. "If you do it in training, you do it in the game." Basically this means that any practised behaviour will become part of your overall behaviour. The more bigoted, insensitive, self centred and arrogant you all become here the more you will become out there.
And don't kid yourselves. This thread is a prime example of some of the worst arrogance I have ever seen on this forum. "*I* will never call you she because *I* don't think you meet the criteria of *my* idea of a woman" that's pretty damn arrogant right there.
I freely admit I have been arrogant in my time here. Really really really arrogant. But I've never been a bigot, except maybe to religions.
So why is religion a fair target and transpeople aren't? Why are transpeople a fair target and Odeon's family is not?
Why is anything a fair target?
Nothing should be a 'fair' target. I've attacked religion in the past because of the things it has done that is worthy of attack. It's bigoted nature. A lot religions are about control and power. Keep the masses worshipping the cloud-man, and they won't notice that the priests hold all the power. And then there's the extremists...Christian, Muslim, any religious extremist (perhaps with the exception of atheist extremists) are very dangerous people that are willing to kill to further their cause. That belief system right there is worth attacking.
What harm do trans people do that is worth attacking?
I think YOU are laughable GA/Sputtleshines/Kayleigh. You really think that spouting your "research" somehow backs your points or neatly classifies us or humanity in general. Get the fuck over yourself. You are a bigot and I think that any time that any subject of transgender rears its head you come flouncing in here telling us all what to think and how to act and it we don't fall in we are bigots and in needs of damning and lecturing and re-educating.
That my friend is the heart of the zealot and that is where the worse of bigotry dwells.
But keep laughing because you only get more ridiculous.
This is a board full of Autistics. Most of us are hardly more than indifferent to a condition that affects us everyday but at least we understand it and have some investment in it. We are supposed to have some investment in transgenderism if it doesn't affect us?
You though presume (in your arrogance) that we would happily be lectured by you, labeled bigots and that if we dare call bullshit on that , you will run away like the coward you are and accuse us all of being what insensitive for the real world. Pot meet kettle.
Life is a lot tougher out there than you realise. You got a job? Try it. That shit is tough work. Kids? Try it. That shit is tough.
Or is society protecting you and you again seeking to speak out to the people who are not afforded the protection you are. Are you claiming to talk about shit you don't know.
Fuck off GA.
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*facepalm*
If you don't like it here GA, just GTFO and stop being a fucking drama queen with your guilt tripping bullshit. You're acting no better than the bigots would. Holy god damn, this shit pissed me off.
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:yawn:
I think I need a nap...
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The video, didn't watch it, but, seeing the comments of the one making it posted by Kayleigh, the video was made by someone aware of the person being trans. And the video maker very likely had an issue with that. Sucks.
Bystanders being indifferent? I don't think that had anything to do with someone being trans or not. Most bystanders would not be aware of that. What you see of a person is what you assume someone to be. People just are indifferent a lot. Sucks.
GA becoming Kayleigh?
Did she become a better person? Don't think so. But that wasn't what it was about.
Did she become a more sensitive person? Don't think so. Before she could not say "Screw you I2 lot, beware you all may be becoming worse for being here". (paraphrasing) Now she can. That looks less sensitive to me. She doesn't care that much if we like her or not. That's less sensitive. I disagree with her idea that I2 will very likely turn members in someone worse than they were before btw. But, that's not the issue.
Did Kayleigh become a more real person? To me she did. With GA I kept thinking he was trying very hard to be liked, to be funny, and what not. Big CLOWN factor, also in his pictures. With Kayleigh, I see just a woman in the pictures. Way more real than any impression GA ever made on me. I don't think she is better than GA, more sensitive, better looking or what ever comparison there is. I think she is just more real. And I think that is what counts.
I will probably now and then throw in a "he" with GA/KAyleigh, especially when referring to something that was about GA. That's habit.
With Soph throwing in a "she" just will not happen. I have no female memories or thoughts of Soph at all. So, no habit to kick.
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..................
Did you seriously think anyone was actually trying to say ostregen makes the penis "disappear" though? No one was talking about it disappearing until you brought that up. I said it shrinks it
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And religion is different because it is about WHO someone is, not WHAT someone is. Attack someone for their beliefs, views, actions etc, fine (and yes, including my atheism). Attacking someone for what they are though, be it ethnicity, sex , sexuality or gender, is just weak imo. And very different
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And religion is different because it is about WHO someone is, not WHAT someone is. Attack someone for their beliefs, views, actions etc, fine (and yes, including my atheism). Attacking someone for what they are though, be it ethnicity, sex , sexuality or gender, is just weak imo. And very different
But... what if you have a go at the Jewish people? lol paradox as they are considered both religion and ethnicity. :zoinks:
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A few last points.
I never attack religious individuals. I attack RELIGIONS.
There is a big phrase in the autistic activist communities. "Nothing about us without us." Of course I give my opinions on trans issues, I am trans. I have a vested interest in such issues and discussions.
As to the 'fuck off' and 'GTFO', I plan on doing exactly that. In a week.
Hykeaswell, Thank You for you honest words. I appreciate it.
A video, the "Transwomen's Manifesto", I seriously doubt anyone who should view this will, and those that do view this are likely are already 'on side' as it were.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7eeD1_-MsA
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And religion is different because it is about WHO someone is, not WHAT someone is. Attack someone for their beliefs, views, actions etc, fine (and yes, including my atheism). Attacking someone for what they are though, be it ethnicity, sex , sexuality or gender, is just weak imo. And very different
But... what if you have a go at the Jewish people? lol paradox as they are considered both religion and ethnicity. :zoinks:
In that case it would depend on whether one made fun of the religious aspect or the ethnic aspect. :P
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:agreed:
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And religion is different because it is about WHO someone is, not WHAT someone is. Attack someone for their beliefs, views, actions etc, fine (and yes, including my atheism). Attacking someone for what they are though, be it ethnicity, sex , sexuality or gender, is just weak imo. And very different
If it makes you feel better about being a bigot, sure.
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And religion is different because it is about WHO someone is, not WHAT someone is. Attack someone for their beliefs, views, actions etc, fine (and yes, including my atheism). Attacking someone for what they are though, be it ethnicity, sex , sexuality or gender, is just weak imo. And very different
If it makes you feel better about being a bigot, sure.
aww, thanks :autism:
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As to the 'fuck off' and 'GTFO', I plan on doing exactly that. In a week.
Six days.
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Religion and culture are ingrained in a person. Not by genetics, not nature, but nurture. Just like the throat of someone speaking English is slightly different from someone speaking Zulu. The sounds made help shaping the body.
I may have gotten rid of the dogmas I was raised with, think I did a pretty good job with that. But my thinking structure will be influenced by Calvinism. That bit is part of me. And there is no way it can be taken away from me. I raise my kids free to question everything someone tells them to be true, and to doubt every absolute truth. But, in their thinking style, Calvinism will be there. I don't think it is a bad trait. Doesn't bother me.
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This is awfully GAY you guys. :zoinks:
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This is awfully GAY you guys. :zoinks:
:eyebrows:
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Religion and culture are ingrained in a person. Not by genetics, not nature, but nurture. Just like the throat of someone speaking English is slightly different from someone speaking Zulu. The sounds made help shaping the body.
I may have gotten rid of the dogmas I was raised with, think I did a pretty good job with that. But my thinking structure will be influenced by Calvinism. That bit is part of me. And there is no way it can be taken away from me. I raise my kids free to question everything someone tells them to be true, and to doubt every absolute truth. But, in their thinking style, Calvinism will be there. I don't think it is a bad trait. Doesn't bother me.
That's not the same as being religious. I will have Church of England in me, it's not the same as me being a christian though
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Hykers, yarly. I'm lost. Just what the hell is this even about anymore? :laugh:
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It's about me being a bibot for taking the piss out of religion :2thumbsup:
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Well, religion IS usually cancerous...
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Religion and culture are ingrained in a person. Not by genetics, not nature, but nurture. Just like the throat of someone speaking English is slightly different from someone speaking Zulu. The sounds made help shaping the body.
I may have gotten rid of the dogmas I was raised with, think I did a pretty good job with that. But my thinking structure will be influenced by Calvinism. That bit is part of me. And there is no way it can be taken away from me. I raise my kids free to question everything someone tells them to be true, and to doubt every absolute truth. But, in their thinking style, Calvinism will be there. I don't think it is a bad trait. Doesn't bother me.
That's not the same as being religious. I will have Church of England in me, it's not the same as me being a christian though
Not for you. There's enough about how I am raised religiously that I still cherish. But, since I am a doubter at heart, and always have been, I'll never be a zealous follower of anything.
When I talk to people who are religious, I am not interested in what they believe perse, but in what it means to them that they believe.
And when I meet a woman who is a physical wreck of maybe 30 kgs, and pain-medication is not helping her, yet talking to Jesus makes her enjoy life, then I think that her religion is good for her. And as long as she doesn't push others to believe the same, I see no problems.
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I see no problems with that either
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Hykers, yarly. I'm lost. Just what the hell is this even about anymore? :laugh:
I think this reply of me was a bit on topic.
First bit was answering the OP. About people being indifferent towards bullying of trans people.
Down the track the discussion of that changed into a discussion if GA/Kayleigh is female or not. Old discussion. Been done a thousand times. And then it got to the fun bits of people. And how they can or cannot be changed or hidden. So, I reacted on the femininity of Kayleigh too.
The video, didn't watch it, but, seeing the comments of the one making it posted by Kayleigh, the video was made by someone aware of the person being trans. And the video maker very likely had an issue with that. Sucks.
Bystanders being indifferent? I don't think that had anything to do with someone being trans or not. Most bystanders would not be aware of that. What you see of a person is what you assume someone to be. People just are indifferent a lot. Sucks.
GA becoming Kayleigh?
Did she become a better person? Don't think so. But that wasn't what it was about.
Did she become a more sensitive person? Don't think so. Before she could not say "Screw you I2 lot, beware you all may be becoming worse for being here". (paraphrasing) Now she can. That looks less sensitive to me. She doesn't care that much if we like her or not. That's less sensitive. I disagree with her idea that I2 will very likely turn members in someone worse than they were before btw. But, that's not the issue.
Did Kayleigh become a more real person? To me she did. With GA I kept thinking he was trying very hard to be liked, to be funny, and what not. Big CLOWN factor, also in his pictures. With Kayleigh, I see just a woman in the pictures. Way more real than any impression GA ever made on me. I don't think she is better than GA, more sensitive, better looking or what ever comparison there is. I think she is just more real. And I think that is what counts.
I will probably now and then throw in a "he" with GA/KAyleigh, especially when referring to something that was about GA. That's habit.
With Soph throwing in a "she" just will not happen. I have no female memories or thoughts of Soph at all. So, no habit to kick.
Oh, I am guessing lots of people get uneasy thinking about trans, because they maybe trying to imagine someone changing their own fun bits. Like saying "ouch" when you see someone being kicked in the crotch. My guess. Could be way beside what makes people uneasy.
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I think it's more to do with insecurity and one's ownn gender/sex/identity. I mean many trans people never get surgery, yet they receive as much, if not more in some situations, abuse that those who do
I reckon a lot of it has to do with not wanting to accept someone as being a man (or woman) just like you, if they don't physicallymatch up to it. As if that somehow takes away from your own masculinity/femininity. Kinda similar to homophobia with the insecurity
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I think it's more to do with insecurity and one's ownn gender/sex/identity. I mean many trans people never get surgery, yet they receive as much, if not more in some situations, abuse that those who do
I reckon a lot of it has to do with not wanting to accept someone as being a man (or woman) just like you, if they don't physicallymatch up to it. As if that somehow takes away from your own masculinity/femininity. Kinda similar to homophobia with the insecurity
My version is more fun though. :autism:
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I think it's more to do with insecurity and one's ownn gender/sex/identity. I mean many trans people never get surgery, yet they receive as much, if not more in some situations, abuse that those who do
I reckon a lot of it has to do with not wanting to accept someone as being a man (or woman) just like you, if they don't physicallymatch up to it. As if that somehow takes away from your own masculinity/femininity. Kinda similar to homophobia with the insecurity
I agree because I used to be a homophobe and most of what caused that was the feeling that my own sexuality wasn't certain at the time. Also it was the fear of misrepresentation and being alienated as a result of it that partly fueled it too. But I overcame that on my own, and feel that it was better that I wasn't preached at aggressively or condescendingly about it, and instead casually shown why I was wrong.
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Oh I get it Hyke. Well heres my two cents.
Organized religions are like gangs. They consist of the insecure and the cowardly. Those who don't have the courage to ask "why", and those afraid of the answers.
The only solid answers can be found on your own, and they're likely different for everyone. All it takes is the bravery to open your mind and heart to the unknown, and daring to be the first.
As for transphobia, cmon folks grow up. Whatever gets you off right? I'd fuck a really pretty MtF. ::)
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It's about me being a bibot for taking the piss out of religion :2thumbsup:
:lol:
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A few last points.
I never attack religious individuals. I attack RELIGIONS.
There is a big phrase in the autistic activist communities. "Nothing about us without us." Of course I give my opinions on trans issues, I am trans. I have a vested interest in such issues and discussions.
As to the 'fuck off' and 'GTFO', I plan on doing exactly that. In a week.
Hykeaswell, Thank You for you honest words. I appreciate it.
A video, the "Transwomen's Manifesto", I seriously doubt anyone who should view this will, and those that do view this are likely are already 'on side' as it were.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7eeD1_-MsA
Yes, yes you will be gone soon, and the site will go on like you were never here.
As to you posting about Transgenderism and the issues around it, sure. As to you seeing a necessity to presume to judge us or what our vales or understandings are? Arrogant and bigoted. You will not see it because you are a zealot (not because you are Trans but because you are a zealot) and you are a self-centered, arrogant, blowhard.
Again the whole "I seriously doubt anyone who should view this will, and those that do view this are likely are already 'on side' as it were." Presuming "we" are taking sides or have polarised views. You don't actually understand do you? "We" collectively are not of an opinion good or bad about transgender issues. It may well be very big in your life but we do not much care. We are not affected by it and it impacts bugger all our life. The only investment we have in it is the imagined investment you presume to estimate we have in it.
Fucking stupid.
Now GA. Being that we don't care and you keep ignoring this and bringing it back. It leads me to suspect either of three possibilities.
1) You are a bigot and like to see everyone who does not embrace the shit that you do in the way you do as being bigoted themselves.
2) You are fucking stupid and can not comprehend that people not affected by transgenderism in their lives are unlikely to care either way no matter how much you would like them to care. You just can not understand or compute the difference.
3) both of the above.
Which is it?
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If people doin't care then why is it any trouble for them to refer to her as "she"?
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I just now watched that video. Samanthas not bad. I'd hit it. :thumbup: :zoinks:
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btw I have no complaints about people being indifferent to trand people - that is how it should be, no different to anyone else you don't know
The problem is the indifference to transphobia compared to other kinds of intolerance. If someone is racist or sexist on here, plenty of people would jump on them for that, but it seems a lot of those people see transphobia as something that isn't much of a big deal. If that's how someone views racism/sexism/homophobia too, then cool, but it's the double standards that irk me.
That is just the way it comes across to me anyway. And definitely not everyone here
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btw I have no complaints about people being indifferent to trand people - that is how it should be, no different to anyone else you don't know
The problem is the indifference to transphobia compared to other kinds of intolerance. If someone is racist or sexist on here, plenty of people would jump on them for that, but it seems a lot of those people see transphobia as something that isn't much of a big deal. If that's how someone views racism/sexism/homophobia too, then cool, but it's the double standards that irk me.
That is just the way it comes across to me anyway. And definitely not everyone here
Shutup you sandnigger.
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^ Faggot
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Again the whole "I seriously doubt anyone who should view this will, and those that do view this are likely are already 'on side' as it were." Presuming "we" are taking sides or have polarised views. You don't actually understand do you? "We" collectively are not of an opinion good or bad about transgender issues. It may well be very big in your life but we do not much care. We are not affected by it and it impacts bugger all our life. The only investment we have in it is the imagined investment you presume to estimate we have in it.
Fucking stupid.
Not to mention people who discriminate against others commonly use the "us v.s them" mentality to preach their points across too. The very notion of that mentality is what perpetuates alienation, as it creates a easy divide between people. George W Bush did the same thing with the beginning of the War on Terror, literally saying "Either you're with us, or against us", denoting that anyone who disagreed with U.S Government policy was potentially a terrorist sympathizer and potentially treated as such. It's dangerous thinking if it goes too far.
If people doin't care then why is it any trouble for them to refer to her as "she"?
I know you're asking Sir Les, but for me I don't have any problem, GA is a she as far as I'm concerned.
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^ Faggot
Pfft. ALLAH is a faggot, faggot. :zoinks:
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I see GA as a she. I'm not really attracted to her tho. :laugh:
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I see her as a she too now, but the name GA I still think of as a guy, so I am best calling her Kayleigh
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:GA:
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Lol I just type GA cause its faster than kalieghhhe
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If people doin't care then why is it any trouble for them to refer to her as "she"?
I could argue that it is no problem calling a dog a cat or a tree a fridge and as indifferent as I would be to this I think it impractical.
I may have a multitude of different reasons for wanting to identify things as to how they make sense to me and fall into my perception of the world that has no reflection on whether someone has now identified as a particular gender.
Does it necessarily mean it bothers me, upsets me, subjects my mind to sleepless ponderings, or that it is easier and fits into my perception?
If someone here was to identify themselves publicly as a psychic, a gay, an activist, a radical separatist, a Mormon, a werewolf, would not care. Why would identifying with any of these things rock my boat and why ought I have to change my dealings with anyone based on how a person identifies with themselves?
What matters to me is what is inside. I don't care for the titles and what not people want to affix to themselves.
I told you once before Soph, you have a pretty good handle on you and what and whom you are. I think of you as Soph. Not Soph the bloke or Soph the girl or Soph who is 5'8" or Soph the Pom or Soph the pet owner or Soph the Uni student or whatever. Sure I know these things about
you but I judge you on what you write and on your interactions here. Mostly they are good and often insightful.
What little investment I have in you comes from what and how you post.
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And all of that is fine, but I still don't see how it's a problem to refer to someone as the gender they indentify as, if you don't care. I mean it's obviously important to kayleigh, but not to you, so it surely doesn't take much just to be considerate? To me it is just about being polite.
For example when all that stuff was going on with you and PMSElle the other day, you seemed bothered by her "offending" hyke (although I don't see how she did)
Would it bother you if someone kept insisting you were not in a relationship with hyke because you'd never met? Or that you don't qualify as a partner as much as, say ebm does to cg?
(sorry to bring you into this btw hyke)
Sure it doesn't really matter what other people think online, especially about something private between you and hyke, but wouldn't you view it as kind of rude for someone to keep saying that?
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Oops :autism:
:popcorn:
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Oops?
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And all of that is fine, but I still don't see how it's a problem to refer to someone as the gender they indentify as, if you don't care. I mean it's obviously important to kayleigh, but not to you, so it surely doesn't take much just to be considerate? To me it is just about being polite.
For example when all that stuff was going on with you and PMSElle the other day, you seemed bothered by her "offending" hyke (although I don't see how she did)
Would it bother you if someone kept insisting you were not in a relationship with hyke because you'd never met? Or that you don't qualify as a partner as much as, say ebm does to cg?
(sorry to bring you into this btw hyke)
Sure it doesn't really matter what other people think online, especially about something private between you and hyke, but wouldn't you view it as kind of rude for someone to keep saying that?
I was not bothered by the insinuation to Hyke or what have you but it did give me something a little more to work with.
Made a point of some kind. I would have to re-read the thread in total to remember what was said where and how. You know how us old blokes are with our memories. :autism:
That said. I am pretty comfortable with how I am with Hyke and our relationship. I don't really give a rat's fat crack what anyone else thinks.
Hell I went out of my way not to draw attention to her being my lady when we joined as i did not want her to be seen as an extension of me but rather her own personality unbiased.
I don't think I would want her backing me up or fighting my battles and visa versa. She has her own opinions and her own voice and I like that. I like that others like that about her. I am not as insecure as you may think (if it is you think such a think would bother me).
Personally I think you are just using an example and fishing and that is cool. The short answer is I don't and would not care?
Was that kind of what you were after?
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I was just using an example of something I thought did bother yuou, yeah. You don't have to defend it to me
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I'll defend my farts into your face. :zoinks:
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I was just using an example of something I thought did bother yuou, yeah. You don't have to defend it to me
Ah OK. Then nope it would not bother me. Pretty comfortable with what and who I am. I am not saying I am ignorant to my flaws but accepting of them regardless.
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If people doin't care then why is it any trouble for them to refer to her as "she"?
Because it requires a conscious effort.
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btw I have no complaints about people being indifferent to trand people - that is how it should be, no different to anyone else you don't know
The problem is the indifference to transphobia compared to other kinds of intolerance. If someone is racist or sexist on here, plenty of people would jump on them for that, but it seems a lot of those people see transphobia as something that isn't much of a big deal. If that's how someone views racism/sexism/homophobia too, then cool, but it's the double standards that irk me.
That is just the way it comes across to me anyway. And definitely not everyone here
Where is this supposed transphobia, then? Links?
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Its not gonna do any good, O-man. We're just a bunch of hitleresqe assface assholes who hate niggers, faggots, spics, heebs, christians, sandniggers, chocolate sprinkles, and government cheese. ADMIT IT DUDE.
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I am terribly frightened by enlarged clits and shrunken penii (is that the proper plural?).
Boys in dresses make me cry.
Girls in slacks do the same.
I once had a dream that I was being crushed by a giant estrogen pill.
Pronouns is serious business.
Now you have a transphobic post to prove your point
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.....
HAHAHAHAHAHA
:plus:
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Its not gonna do any good, O-man. We're just a bunch of hitleresqe assface assholes who hate niggers, faggots, spics, heebs, christians, sandniggers, chocolate sprinkles, and government cheese. ADMIT IT DUDE.
Nope. I don't hate groups, I hate individuals based on individual merits.
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You don't hate child abusers?
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Cm'on, Odeon. They are right, we are wrong. Labeling things is smart, we are stupid. :green:
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You don't hate child abusers?
Only if it's not smexy :autism:
(sorry!)
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You don't hate child abusers?
I would suspect that Odeon dislikes child abusers as a group because as a group it consists of individuals who are being judged by their own merits. It is funny that you would make this argument as by doing so you are equating a group of individuals who make a bad choice with transgendered people. Are you now stating that being trans is a choice?
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How am I equating them with trans people? My post had nothing to do with the original subject of the thread. I am saying they are a group of people
Also you can apply what you just said to any "group."
as a group it consists of individuals who are being judged by their own merits
Judged by their own merits = abusing children, in this case. But could also mean belief in x, y or z deity, if talking about religious people for example.
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I'm gonna abuse you, soph. :laugh:
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How am I equating them with trans people? My post had nothing to do with the original subject of the thread. I am saying they are a group of people
Also you can apply what you just said to any "group."
as a group it consists of individuals who are being judged by their own merits
Judged by their own merits = abusing children, in this case. But could also mean belief in x, y or z deity, if talking about religious people for example.
Okay, so you admit your question was a non sequitur and had nothing to do with the post topic. This threw me temporarily as I assumed you had a point you were trying to make. :autism:
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I was responding to odeon's post. You do realise we're now onto page 12? Surely you've noticed by now that threads don't always stay on topic here? :autism:
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I ain't even mad.
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You don't hate child abusers?
Good point.
My point was more about the kind of groups Rage listed, though, in other words groups based on ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, that sort of thing.
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Cm'on, Odeon. They are right, we are wrong. Labeling things is smart, we are stupid. :green:
Who are "they"?
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I was oozing sarcasm. I see all this as a big joke. :laugh:
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
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Does it matter, Soph? Just do what you feel is right.
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I don't think it matters. But I will definitely stand my corner if i think I'm being accused of being a hypocrite
But yeah, it doesn't matter really. My position here isn't gonna change I don't think
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.
You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.
You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?
I will answer your question when you actually answer mine. :autism:
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.
You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?
I will answer your question when you actually answer mine. :autism:
I didn't tthink you actually seriously expected an answer, sorry - No, I probably couldn't choose to become socially conservative. But again, that's beside the point
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
Why do you insist on defining groups to attack?
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I don't
iirc you were the one who brought up muslims earlier in the thread. And seemed to be accusing me of being a hypocrite for being against transphobia but thinking it's ok to take the piss out of muslims.
I'm explaining why I think there's a difference between attacking who someone is and what someone is
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.
You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?
GA's fanaticism about something he probably should be a little more secure about tells me a lot about WHO he is.
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I don't
iirc you were the one who brought up muslims earlier in the thread. And seemed to be accusing me of being a hypocrite for being against transphobia but thinking it's ok to take the piss out of muslims.
I'm explaining why I think there's a difference between attacking who someone is and what someone is
A difference that you think is there but I don't. Bigotry remains the same regardless of what or whom you attack.
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I didn't tthink you actually seriously expected an answer, sorry - No, I probably couldn't choose to become socially conservative. But again, that's beside the point
Whether you can see it or not, it is exactly on point. It is just as difficult (or impossible) for a religious Muslim to change their world view as it is for you to change yours. You will want to argue about which world view is "right" or more intellectual or where the view comes from or how it is formed, but these are all irrelevant points when it comes down to changing them. If we admit that these views are unlikely to change, how are they any less inherent to the person than their gender or sexuality?
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.
You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?
GA's fanaticism about something he probably should be a little more secure about tells me a lot about WHO he is.
That's her individually though. Like I've said already, there's nothing wrong with criticising a person for their beliefs or views or how they act. That's not transphobia.
Also, while I personally think she is actually pretty secure now bout how she is, it wouldn't be surprising for a trans person to be insecure imo, given how it is treated by society
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I don't
iirc you were the one who brought up muslims earlier in the thread. And seemed to be accusing me of being a hypocrite for being against transphobia but thinking it's ok to take the piss out of muslims.
I'm explaining why I think there's a difference between attacking who someone is and what someone is
A difference that you think is there but I don't. Bigotry remains the same regardless of what or whom you attack.
Including nazis?
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I didn't tthink you actually seriously expected an answer, sorry - No, I probably couldn't choose to become socially conservative. But again, that's beside the point
Whether you can see it or not, it is exactly on point. It is just as difficult (or impossible) for a religious Muslim to change their world view as it is for you to change yours. You will want to argue about which world view is "right" or more intellectual or where the view comes from or how it is formed, but these are all irrelevant points when it comes down to changing them. If we admit that these views are unlikely to change, how are they any less inherent to the person than their gender or sexuality?
In THAT sense it is not different. i don't think I've been saying muslims can just switch their beliefs on or off, so not sure why you're going on about this ???
The point is that it still says something about who that person is. Regardless of the fact that it's just as hard to choose, it is still not set from birth for example. I mean you're not born believing in god. Religion is the same as politics in this respect
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Sorry, I'm not explainining myself well here, watching the football at the same time
I will rewrite that later. although there probably isn't much point as none of us are gonna change our views on this :zoinks:
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i don't think I've been saying muslims can just switch their beliefs on or off, so not sure why you're going on about this ???
Doesn't this define your difference between "what a person is and who a person is"?
The point is that it still says something about who that person is. Regardless of the fact that it's just as hard to choose, it is still not set from birth for example. I mean you're not born believing in god. Religion is the same as politics in this respect
I believe that I was born a liberal. I believe that it is absolutely impossible for me to be anything different. I can see how someone who is religious can feel the same way.
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OK I agree with you then, except I don't see religion as being in the same category. I see it in the same kinda area as political persuasion
I mean, it's alright to attack nazis, right? (and no I'm not saying christians or muslims are as bad as or similar to nazis - that is an extreme example)
So, you feel it is possible for you to choose your political persuasion? If you wanted to you could become a social conservative?
It's not about choice here - it's about whether it is WHO a person is or WHAT a person is. Someone's political or religious beliefs say somethign about WHO they are.
You are tellign me you don't judge someone if they are a nazi?
GA's fanaticism about something he probably should be a little more secure about tells me a lot about WHO he is.
That's her individually though. Like I've said already, there's nothing wrong with criticising a person for their beliefs or views or how they act. That's not transphobia.
Also, while I personally think she is actually pretty secure now bout how she is, it wouldn't be surprising for a trans person to be insecure imo, given how it is treated by society
As with most other groups mistreated by society in one form or another. You are perfectly fine with a trans individual acting as a cunt and being criticised as suc, but you have trouble allowing individual Muslims to act like cunts without condemning the group as a whole.
Not always but I've seen you make those sweeping generalisations often enough. I have also called you out on them.
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i don't think I've been saying muslims can just switch their beliefs on or off, so not sure why you're going on about this ???
Doesn't this define your difference between "what a person is and who a person is"?
The point is that it still says something about who that person is. Regardless of the fact that it's just as hard to choose, it is still not set from birth for example. I mean you're not born believing in god. Religion is the same as politics in this respect
I believe that I was born a liberal. I believe that it is absolutely impossible for me to be anything different. I can see how someone who is religious can feel the same way.
OK I actually kinda agree with you there though. But technically I think that can be said of EVERYTHING.
I still see a difference between opinions and beliefs (which imo can be attacked) and sex and ethnicity (which are completely irrelevant when it comes to who a person is.
What I mean is, you take Person X out of their family environment, out of their home environment, their culture, their country. And place them somewhere totally differnet. Their sex, gender, sexuality, skin colour etc will all be exactly the same. Their beliefs and opinions (part of what makes them who they are) will change though. They will still be more inclined towards progressive views or traditional views, yeah. But the exact views will still be different
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As with most other groups mistreated by society in one form or another. You are perfectly fine with a trans individual acting as a cunt and being criticised as suc, but you have trouble allowing individual Muslims to act like cunts without condemning the group as a whole.
Not always but I've seen you make those sweeping generalisations often enough. I have also called you out on them.
That's not true at all. If you want to critisize GA for how she acts or what she says, go ahead. That's no different to criticising a non-trans person for the same thing.
And yes I've posted a lot of stupid generalisations about muslims (although not recently), but I always assumed it was obvious I was taking the piss with my islam/fat/american trolling. I don't seriously think the muslim girl I sit with in lectures is gonna come in one day and blow us up, or the Catholic in my family is secretly abusing his neighbour's kid.
Once I realised people really did think I was being serious, I actually stopped that kinda piss-taking and don't think I've done it (except possibly the odd joke-post, but a lot of members do that and I do it about trans stuff too) for quite a while
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So tell me, what is the difference between piss-taking when it comes to Muslims and piss-taking when it comes to trans persons? And how will the target know?
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And yes I've posted a lot of stupid generalisations about muslims (although not recently), but I always assumed it was obvious I was taking the piss with my islam/fat/american trolling. I don't seriously think the muslim girl I sit with in lectures is gonna come in one day and blow us up, or the Catholic in my family is secretly abusing his neighbour's kid.
Sorry but it was not obvious at all. And in any case you could have said so any time in stead of letting the bloody thing go on.
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What target? There are no muslims on here, which is the precise reason I did the muslim stuff more than tha christian stuff. If a muslim person joined then I would have toned it down
I'm pretty sure I DID explain at least a few times that I was fucking around. And I know a couple other people pointed it out too. I'm not gonna add on the end of every stupid post I make "Disclaimer: this may not be serious" just because you don't have the same sense of humour
And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?
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I don't believe I could have developed conservative views regardless of my upbringing. My whole family is very conservative.
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What target? There are no muslims on here, which is the precise reason I did the muslim stuff more than tha christian stuff. If a muslim person joined then I would have toned it down
I'm pretty sure I DID explain at least a few times that I was fucking around. And I know a couple other people pointed it out too. I'm not gonna add on the end of every stupid post I make "Disclaimer: this may not be serious" just because you don't have the same sense of humour
And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?
Could you personally choose to believe in God?
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And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?
Several times. It's just that I don't buy it.
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What target? There are no muslims on here, which is the precise reason I did the muslim stuff more than tha christian stuff. If a muslim person joined then I would have toned it down
I'm pretty sure I DID explain at least a few times that I was fucking around. And I know a couple other people pointed it out too. I'm not gonna add on the end of every stupid post I make "Disclaimer: this may not be serious" just because you don't have the same sense of humour
And AGAIN, the difference is between who someone is and what someone is. Haven't I said that already?
Could you personally choose to believe in God?
Another equally good question.
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lol omg. It's not that you can't "choose to believe in god or not"
Can a racist person "choose" to be a non-racist person?
It is still an aspect of WHO they are as a person.
And yes MLA, I sid that in my post - you'd still have inclinations the same way, but your specific beliefs and views would be different
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Well opinions can be changed over time if circumstances are favorable for it, including accepting new perspectives.
But my only issue is that, when politically correct types confront people with passive-aggressive nonsense like condensension and pretentiousness to present an opinion, it only aims to further alienate people away from listening (or forces them to comply in submission, still resentful). It makes it worse when this is applied with allegations of bigotry towards anyone who may not share their views exactly on the subject they hold dearly. People are not very receptive to having others tell them they're something bad over very minor provocations; because the attitude belittles people needlessly and reflects the same attitude of bigotry. People are much more receptive to someone who can understand that a middle ground must be reached before encouraging a new opinion to be adopted, or at least thought about. To see a person who's casual and rather light-hearted and fun to talk to has a greater success of having people reconsider their attitudes, than someone preaching down their throat and bitching "oh woe is me" when things don't go exactly as planned.
I think once people start to realise this, reconciling is then possible.
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:welcome: Rissy.
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oops. They left without posting.
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oops. They left without posting.
Nah, I think they're writing a long post and by being inactive too long by not browsing, they disappeared off the active user list.
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lol, they did it again
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Hey, I guess I really ought to have introduced myself first, but I wanted to defend Kayleigh and join the discussion. A forum can talk about anything so I don't see why any topic is to irrelevant to post as long as it's in the right section. And they're talking about users of I^2, which is what makes this thread relevant.
Here's a counter argument, if it's too hard to acknowledge transsexualism, then it's too hard to acknowledge autism and therefore I^2 is really just a forum of social retards who need to grow up and learn to act neurotypical :P (Not my opinion, I'm just making a comparison)
Hypocrites don't deserve what they don't give. If you're gonna treat Kayleigh like shit, then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love. Respect isn't a divine right, it's something you have to share. Curses come home to roost, and thus if you don't respect people you don't get any respect or sympathy for your situation.
Transsexualism has got to do with identity programmed into the brain. Kayleigh was born with her brain telling her to be a girl. Being a repressed object for people to use how they want to use you is a pathetic way of living, so she went and did something about acting and living the way she wished to live. What's the relevance of transsexualism to austism? Maybe it should be kinship since they're both not neurotypical.
In terms of use of pronouns and such? It's really just a social issue. If you want to take a definition based on the reproductive capabilities, infertile people forfeit a gender. If you can't help reproduce, you're just a living creature of no sexual importance. In real terms, the use of gender labeling is just a social construction and really reflects more on identity and the way people act and present themselves. The binary gender system is obviously crap, but that's how society is constructed and trying to really be thorough with classifications is complicated and eventually needs to be cut somewhere. Maybe the five gender system is better, but I'd still have complaints. But since pronouns are more relevant to gender than sex, it is better to use them as such. Its about respect, and I don't see how it matters when it's not as simple as people treat it.
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lol, they did it again
Third times the charm? :eyelash:
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And welcome Rissy.
What brought you here?
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And welcome Rissy.
What brought you here?
Whiteknight from what I see.
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I know Kayleigh and I hear about this thread? Lol?
I don't think I'm autistic, but I have found I share some similar traits to aspies and can score high in aspie tests. So I find some minor affinity with aspies. Mostly I just like chatting so I'd join in any discussion I was interested in, though.
I'm not necessarily whiteknighting though. I just want to join the discussion. I like arguing over stuff :P. I play devil's advocate a lot of the time.
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*scratchin head
but I wanted to defend Kayleigh and join the discussion
Very admirable of you but why can't she defend herself?
if it's too hard to acknowledge transsexualism, then it's too hard to acknowledge autism
Why is that then? In order to become a Psychologist who diagnoses autism do you need to become
an expert in trans gender issues, before you qualify?
anyway, who said they didn't acknowledge transsexualism? i been following
this thread but i guess i could have missed something? ? Please clarify the member/s you implicate?
I^2 is really just a forum of social retards who need to grow up and learn to act neurotypical
probably a fair comment, but i prefer the term social misfit :zoinks:
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Here's a counter argument, if it's too hard to acknowledge transsexualism
It isn't and that was never the issue was it? Why are you trying to define it thus?
If you're gonna treat Kayleigh like shit, then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love.
No my friend if Kayleigh wants to flounce in here and rail again us all collecively for being transphobic and lecture us and telll us what our values must be if we do not share their then it is KAYLEIGH that forfeits the right of said respect from their own action.
Kaleigh gets what they get for acting like a pompous, arrogant blowhard.
So Your point is something like. Kayleigh can be an arsehole and if we don't "respect" their arrogance and bigotry, then we "then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love"?
Well that makes fuck all sense and i think you know that.
Perhaps you want to rethink what you mean and have another crack. You may be trying to defend your friend but your friend was being an asshat
the attention they got from this asshatery was nothing to do with them being Transgendered but from being an asshat.
So take two Rissy.
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Meh, I only go pissed because it was clearly attention whoring and guilt tripping what she tried to do. I don't like it when people try to emotionally manipulate others to accept their worldview.
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Meh, I only go pissed because it was clearly attention whoring and guilt tripping what she tried to do. I don't like it when people try to emotionally manipulate others to accept their worldview.
Indeed.
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Besides she's not the only transgendered person here. Soph is also transgendered and he has done a good job debating with everyone else about the topic without resorting to such things.
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Besides she's not the only transgendered person here. Soph is also transgendered and he has done a good job debating with everyone else about the topic without resort to such things.
Very true again
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Besides she's not the only transgendered person here. Soph is also transgendered and he has done a good job debating with everyone else about the topic without resort to such things.
Very true again
So to finish up, I'm not discriminating GA on the merits of what she is, but rather protesting against the method of execution on how she confronts her detractors. Thank you everyone it's been a great audience.
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(I didn't ask Rissy to join I2, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone tbh)
Ok so there appears to be at least two issues at play here.
First being the misgendering and refusal to use the pronouns I prefer.
Second being my apparent misconduct in explaining my position.
On the first, specifically Odeon's rebuttal that it takes concious effort; A lot of things take conscious effort. Like make allowances for autistic behaviour, and making spaces safe for autistic people. Applying your apparent logic to that would mean no one should really bother to make any allowances for autistic people, or indeed any differently able people because it take a conscious effort for them to do so. It's poor logic.
On the second, I don't believe I used emotional manipulation at all. Point out some examples from this thread where I have done so?
This issue is close to me, obviously. And I am engaged in spreading awareness and understanding of the issues, not just for transpeople, but for all diverse sexuality and gender people, and for autism and other disabilities. I'm a bit of an activist in that respect. I believe in knowledge and the reduction of ignorance. Yes I am passionate, and that shows in how I present my arguments. But I have never tried to emotionally manipulate anyone, that would be disingenuous and false conduct and would really undercut the validity of my arguments.
Self important blowhard? Self important maybe, but only to the extent that THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT ME. Hard not to be self important in such a situation, I think. Blowhard...I'm not even sure what that means to be honest.
Google will know. "A person who talks too much or too loudly, especially in a boastful or self-important manner". Hrm, I guess that might be accurate, but again, the two main arguments of this thread is about me. "GA is not a woman" "he" and "GA is an arrogant [...]" it's all about me. A bit hard not to be boastful or self-important. Do I talk too much? Possibly. But only in an endeavour to drive my point home.
My aim has always been to educate. Apart from people like Bint or Soph or Hyke, and maybe a few others, you all do seem to lack an understanding of some of issues about trans people. Call that arrogant or whatever, but that is how you appear. And you're only being wilfully ignorant to argue otherwise.
I know, for a fact, that I am ignorant about a great many things. I can accept this, and I can only argue from a position of knowledge, whether actual or assumed.
I would like to thank Farnsworth, Rage, and others for referring to me as she. That's all I've ever asked for really.
I don't understand what I have done against you Odeon, for you to treat me with such disrespect. I've always respected you and thought you were a nice guy.
I posted about this thread on my Facebook wall, and two other forums. Excluding the forums as they're populated by trans people, on Facebook, I've had about half a dozen people exclaim surprise and horror at the comments expressed in this thread. Sure they're all friends of mine, but very few of them are as knowledgeable about trans issues as I would prefer. And they can all see how hurtful and disrespectful you've been to me and in some ways Soph.
The larger problem is I don't know how to discern the legitimate opinions from the trolling. So I take it all as serious and respond in kind.
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Yay~ People to argue with~
Of course she can defend herself, I just wanted to join in. I'm not really posting for whiteknight purposes, I just wanted to join the discussion.
Why is that then? In order to become a Psychologist who diagnoses autism do you need to become
an expert in trans gender issues, before you qualify?
anyway, who said they didn't acknowledge transsexualism? i been following
this thread but i guess i could have missed something? ? Please clarify the member/s you implicate?
I was simply arguing against people saying that it's too hard to acknowledge the identity of transpeople, then there should be no reason to bother listening to the concerns and complaints of autistic people. It extends to regard to any disability or disorder being discounted. It's suggesting that maybe its too hard to deal with people who aren't neurotypical and anyone who isn't useful or functioning enough should be thrown into a furnace. I'm going to extremes, but the idea is, if you're going to disrespect transpeople and then expect people to understand and respect that autism is causing you problems, then you really lack common sense and you honestly don't deserve any consideration in return. This is in reply of arguments that it's too hard to use politically correct pronouns or that it's not your problem. Psychology only applies to social phenomena anyway and is simply reflective. It's neuroscience that identifies physical markers in the brain.
Most of the dismissive arguments is that transpeople are crazy and deluded. That is also related, because people can treat aspies like there problems are delusions of theirs.
No my friend if Kayleigh wants to flounce in here and rail again us all collecively for being transphobic and lecture us and telll us what our values must be if we do not share their then it is KAYLEIGH that forfeits the right of said respect from their own action.
Kaleigh gets what they get for acting like a pompous, arrogant blowhard.
So Your point is something like. Kayleigh can be an arsehole and if we don't "respect" their arrogance and bigotry, then we "then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love"?
Well that makes fuck all sense and i think you know that.
I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard." People throwing around that argument are hypocrites. She was attacked by odean's comment and made an angry reply like anyone would. The fact is, you need to give respect to get respect. That applies to everyone on any subject. If you don't show respect and acknowledgement to an individual, you don't make friends and you make poor precedents of previous behavior next time you want to argue for respect and such from someone else.
The anger was spawned from an offensive comment that was filled with someone else's prejudice and views. So she's only humanly insulted and angry. But I already said I want to discuss this and not be a whiteknight. It's kind of petty picking at words instead of meaning. So why don't people start by presenting their views on transsexualism and why they don't want to respect her choice of pronouns and such.
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Firstly, I find the term ‘trans’ to be unhelpful. You argue that you
don’t need to be able to reproduce to be a woman, fine. Just be a
Woman then instead of defining yourself as ‘trans’ it only implies
you are ‘different’ and somehow not a woman or vice versa.
The two people on here who fall into this definition of trans
Are Soph and Kayleigh.
I have only been here a couple of months but I can tell you, in
my mind Soph = Boy Kayleigh = girl
Now that is ingrained in my brain because that is how they presented
themselves when I joined.
I think some of the issues are to do with the members who have been here
since the Boer War and when introduced to Kayleigh, they were actually
Introduced to a boy. I think the fact that some don’t always’s refer to her
As ‘she’ is simply due to this factor. I don’t think there is anything sinister
going on at all. I don’t call that ‘transphobic’.
You are what you are. To me Soph = Boy Kayleigh = girl
Now that to me is simple to understand. I don’t need to know your
History, or what you used to be, or how you perceived yourself to be?
This is an internet forum, it doesn’t matter to me if you say you are a man then
In my mind you are male. If you say you are a woman then, the same applies.
We all got shit to deal with. I am concerned about my little boy at the moment,
Therefore I have to admit I have done little about educating myself on these issues.
You can say I am an apathetic cow, or uneducated or just lazy – but I resent being
Called transphobic just for the fact that I haven’t really ‘embraced’ the idea myself and
apart from the video in this thread I have no idea what issues you do face? I have made a
mental note to do some reading and swat up on it, really out of respect for fellow forum
members (I know Kayleigh wants to quit but still leaves soph who seems pretty cool)
Saying that it is not, and never will be on my ‘urgent things to do list’ and why would
It be?
To sum up basically I keep hearing about transphobic comments.
I haven’t seen any - please show me what you mean? Without
them, it does make
It look like you are trying to get some kind of special treatment. I think everyone
Is special, in their own way. I am afraid I don’t see you as any more
special than anyone else.
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No my friend if Kayleigh wants to flounce in here and rail again us all collecively for being transphobic and lecture us and telll us what our values must be if we do not share their then it is KAYLEIGH that forfeits the right of said respect from their own action.
Kaleigh gets what they get for acting like a pompous, arrogant blowhard.
So Your point is something like. Kayleigh can be an arsehole and if we don't "respect" their arrogance and bigotry, then we "then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love"?
Well that makes fuck all sense and i think you know that.
I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard."
So that hypocrisy means the position is invalid or valid or are you just deflecting?
The fact is, you need to give respect to get respect. That applies to everyone on any subject. If you don't show respect and acknowledgement to an individual, you don't make friends and you make poor precedents of previous behavior next time you want to argue for respect and such from someone else.
Indeed. Was how Kayleigh spoke of NOT JUST ODEON but others and also generally the membership as a whole
a) disrespectful
b) respectful
if it was a) ought Kaleigh (according to your very own above quote), be treated with respect or disrespect.
Come on not a hard one and please don't go down the path of justified or considering or what have you. Straight up, you say that respect begets respect and i ask you was Kayleigh's words and actions respectful.
It's kind of petty picking at words instead of meaning. So why don't people start by presenting their views on transsexualism and why they don't want to respect her choice of pronouns and such.
Why does Kayleigh want to not respect other people's right to their own world perspective without contesting that if it doesn't fall into precise boundaries in Kayleigh's perceptions, that they are not necessarily wrong, bad or bigoted but just hold different points of view?
Isn't what you are asking one way traffic in respect to this valued respect?
Poor defence so far to be honest and hardly devil's advocate
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I read the whole thread, and I don't remember anyone being "transphobic". I also didnt really see any insulting or hatred going on at all. I think that people should try to be less sensitive and let things roll of their backs. I know that if you went to the hillbilly town I am from, and try to say you are some other gender you are likely to get beat up. THAT is transphobia.
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I think some of the issues are to do with the members who have been here
since the Boer War and when introduced to Kayleigh, they were actually
Introduced to a boy. I think the fact that some don’t always’s refer to her
As ‘she’ is simply due to this factor. I don’t think there is anything sinister
going on at all. I don’t call that ‘transphobic’.
True that.
And, the sweetheart of this board, she got hurt in the process.
I think that not being a woman really was no option for Kayleigh. But, most of the members here will think of Ren when reading about GA. And we saw her getting hurt in the months and months before Kayleigh did decide to go through with coming out as a woman.
This will be there. She is still hurt. Kayleigh had no option to play a man longer. But, at least she was in control of what happened then. Ren had no options at all, and no control. She saw who she loved dearly and had not even that long ago pledged herself to change and grow away from her.
And of course Kayleigh never wanted to hurt her. But, it was unavoidable. And most of us here just adore Ren here and always have I think.
Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
I think a lot of people of the board are hoping Soph finds courage and possibilities to get a step further towards hormones.
This thread is confusing, because there are so many personal issues mixed in it.
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:yawn:
:deadhorse:
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Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.
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Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.
How come you can say it in so little words and I need a whole paragraph?
Not fair.
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http://www.education.tas.gov.au/school/health/inclusive/antidiscrimination/gender/what-is-transphobia
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Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.
Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?
I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.
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Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.
Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?
I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.
Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result.
oh ....wait a minute...
(For what it is worth I and many here can not see all these imaginary implied or expressed slights and attacks. I think you are cloud gazing and seeing shit that just isn't there. I think that your personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is and I think that your personal values are not what others's are. People do not generally give a shit and nor have any reason to. Like it or not. We are not bigots we just don't care. You see the difference, zealot? No? Not surprised)
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Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.
Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?
I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.
I don't have a problem with you. I don't think Ive ever even talked to you. Truth is not everyone really knows all the intricacies of being trans, and may not even know what is offensive or not offensive. I once read on here someone said they didnt like gypsies. Now I didnt go get all offended and call him out, more like laughed and let it slide. I don't think that people were really saying anything bad about "trans", just about "you". I think acting sensitive about anything here, no matter what it is, will leave the doors open for criticism.
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Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result.
oh ....wait a minute...
If there were any doubt left that you are little more than a troll, you just washed them away. You're a total arsehole.
"Woeful personality"? Wow.
You keep saying I'm bigotted and arrogant. But I see no evidence of these claims. When asked to present any you just go off on another trollish rant. You're true colours are showing, you better be careful lest others realise what you really are.
Your argument is incredibly flawed. You claim that I do not conduct myself appropriately. (though I fail to see how that related to me "woeful personality") And yet you claim that attacking my being trans will have the greatest effect. Effect for what? To change my behaviour? That's absurd, attacking my being trans only upsets me, I learn nothing from such attacks.
(For what it is worth I and many here can not see all these imaginary implied or expressed slights and attacks. I think you are cloud gazing and seeing shit that just isn't there. I think that your personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is and I think that your personal values are not what others's are. People do not generally give a shit and nor have any reason to. Like it or not. We are not bigots we just don't care. You see the difference, zealot? No? Not surprised)
My personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is? NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK.
See a difference? You haven't made any logical comparison for me to see a difference. What? I'm different than most people here? Well duh. I already knew that. Did you not?
I may be a zealot, but at least I fight for something I believe in. I guess all you have is trolling autistics and getting your jollies that way. I know who I'd rather be.
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I don't think people are being transphobic, but maybe maybe a little cissexist.
I don't have a problem with bodaccea's view. Generally transpeople do leave off the 'trans' part, but in a topic like this, you need to differentiate. Odean and Al Swearengen are the ones that are being loudly cissexist.
I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard."
So that hypocrisy means the position is invalid or valid or are you just deflecting?
I'm just saying that you're just throwing out insults, and ones that can easily be turned back on you. It doesn't strike me as an argument, it's just name-calling.
Kayleigh's rage post is an example of disrespect returning to you. It's obviously an angry, emotional reply. She wasn't in the thread until Odean started saying disrespectful things to her. She refined her rage towards you, Odean and Callaway if you read her post. I don't think you and Callaway deserved it at that point, but maybe she was putting rage and arguments too close together. But Odean did deserve the return of disrespect. Rage posts are obviously immature, but it's not like she didn't have a point amongst it. This thread does have a point though, and you seem too busy hating people for personal reasons to talk about it at all. I'm mostly trying to turn it back into a discussion instead of irrelevantly attacking each other on petty details. Odean might of upset Kayleigh, but at the same time, he was giving his opinion in a way that was on topic.
I'm sure we can all face the facts, it's better to stay level headed in a discussion and getting emotional and angry just leads to meaningless bickering. I agree that her post was bitchy, but I'm finding a lot of your posts in this thread no better. Feel free to say that I'm disrespectful and such, but I'd rather get on topic and discuss the topic. There's definitely some cissexist vibes and that's what the thread is about.
Don't complain about my arguments when yours are summed up as botty-burp while denying botty-burp, which happens to be this thread's topic.
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And, the sweetheart of this board, she got hurt in the process.
I think that not being a woman really was no option for Kayleigh. But, most of the members here will think of Ren when reading about GA. And we saw her getting hurt in the months and months before Kayleigh did decide to go through with coming out as a woman.
This will be there. She is still hurt. Kayleigh had no option to play a man longer. But, at least she was in control of what happened then. Ren had no options at all, and no control. She saw who she loved dearly and had not even that long ago pledged herself to change and grow away from her.
And of course Kayleigh never wanted to hurt her. But, it was unavoidable. And most of us here just adore Ren here and always have I think.
Yeah, renaeden seems like a sweet person. A shame this happened.
Ah, well. That's life.
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rissy - dont expect anyone to ever stay on topic here, no matter how serious an issue might seem. Also, if you act sensitive about something you've really got a target on your head.
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What serious issue? That a couple of trans have a severe persecution complex?
That is not serious to me.
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What serious issue? That a couple of trans have a severe persecution complex?
That is not serious to me.
Awww shit, get your umbella out... :poo:
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Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result.
oh ....wait a minute...
If there were any doubt left that you are little more than a troll, you just washed them away. You're a total arsehole.
"Woeful personality"? Wow.
You keep saying I'm bigotted and arrogant. But I see no evidence of these claims. When asked to present any you just go off on another trollish rant. You're true colours are showing, you better be careful lest others realise what you really are.
Your argument is incredibly flawed. You claim that I do not conduct myself appropriately. (though I fail to see how that related to me "woeful personality") And yet you claim that attacking my being trans will have the greatest effect. Effect for what? To change my behaviour? That's absurd, attacking my being trans only upsets me, I learn nothing from such attacks.
(For what it is worth I and many here can not see all these imaginary implied or expressed slights and attacks. I think you are cloud gazing and seeing shit that just isn't there. I think that your personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is and I think that your personal values are not what others's are. People do not generally give a shit and nor have any reason to. Like it or not. We are not bigots we just don't care. You see the difference, zealot? No? Not surprised)
My personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is? NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK.
See a difference? You haven't made any logical comparison for me to see a difference. What? I'm different than most people here? Well duh. I already knew that. Did you not?
I may be a zealot, but at least I fight for something I believe in. I guess all you have is trolling autistics and getting your jollies that way. I know who I'd rather be.
Don't hate me for being right.
Change your behaviour? Never thought that to be an option and don't suspect anyone would. We don't care.
To have you leave...now there is a better odds result. Proven to be right too. You can't have people respect your right to "educate them" or be "preached at" or respect your worldviews and you are not going to be likely to change (you are a zealot after all) but dummy spit and pack up your toys and vitriol and leave?
I have not seen the transphobic assertions you allude to. I do see a group of people in a forum you hate being largely condemned by you for not fitting into your own definitions of how we ought to accept you and others and your want to accuse us of being transphobic.
Call me an arsehole and I can live with that. I am quite comfortable with me and calling it like i see it. Always have been.
You won't see anything I put to you and this is evidenced not only in this thread but many transgender threads.
Your form is the same each time.
You come in and post a handful of links for us to educate ourselves on transgenderism, you rail against the members individually or specifically for having flawed values and or points of view and anyone who challenges that your view of what they say or think is met with you telling us how we need to embrace your perceptions and a failure to makes us lesser people (paraphrased).
Yes Kayleigh that is arrogant. That is bigoted. That is self-centred, pompous and reflective of a rather woeful personality.
Makes me an arsehole to point it out? yup. Makes me a troll? Maybe. Makes a decent point? I think so.
Again I have not seen these imagined attacks on you being trans but I would imagine any attacks on you were because you are rather disliked and I think your 4 days left, will pass and be better passed to have you and your account deleted.
You have contributed very little with these debates from what I can see. Pretty much everyone from what they have posted doesn't really give a shit about trangender. They know basically what trangender is and have no real issue apart from the fact that a blowhard with your username comes in occasionally to tell them what miserable transphobic people they are and lectures them. You will not be missed by many.
Sure i have made logical difference. I have spelled it out and others see it but you have zealot blinkers on.
You are transgender. We don't care. You say "You guys are transphobic". We say "No we aren't". You preach and show links of transphobia and imply a level of investment to trannsgederism that we simply do not have and assert that because we do not have your accepted appreciuation of perceptions or investment of transgender that we are wrong.
No we aren't. No we ought not have to care. No we ought not take your views on board. No it ought not impact our lives.
You refuse to take the hint.
It is not because you are an activist it is because you are a zealous bigot.
Call it trolling but I don't suspect anyone is buying it.
Call it me getting my jollies but I don't care much either way. it is you and you will be gone in 4 days. Why would I really care? Because it is you? :lol:
I certainly know who I would rather be too Kayleigh. I would not be you for all the tea in China. I doubt many would
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What serious issue? That a couple of trans have a severe persecution complex?
That is not serious to me.
Awww shit, get your umbella out... :poo:
:O
*snaps fingers 3 times in a Z formation*
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I don't think people are being transphobic, but maybe maybe a little cissexist.
I don't have a problem with bodaccea's view. Generally transpeople do leave off the 'trans' part, but in a topic like this, you need to differentiate. Odean and Al Swearengen are the ones that are being loudly cissexist.
I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard."
So that hypocrisy means the position is invalid or valid or are you just deflecting?
I'm just saying that you're just throwing out insults, and ones that can easily be turned back on you. It doesn't strike me as an argument, it's just name-calling.
Kayleigh's rage post is an example of disrespect returning to you. It's obviously an angry, emotional reply. She wasn't in the thread until Odean started saying disrespectful things to her. She refined her rage towards you, Odean and Callaway if you read her post. I don't think you and Callaway deserved it at that point, but maybe she was putting rage and arguments too close together. But Odean did deserve the return of disrespect. Rage posts are obviously immature, but it's not like she didn't have a point amongst it. This thread does have a point though, and you seem too busy hating people for personal reasons to talk about it at all. I'm mostly trying to turn it back into a discussion instead of irrelevantly attacking each other on petty details. Odean might of upset Kayleigh, but at the same time, he was giving his opinion in a way that was on topic.
I'm sure we can all face the facts, it's better to stay level headed in a discussion and getting emotional and angry just leads to meaningless bickering. I agree that her post was bitchy, but I'm finding a lot of your posts in this thread no better. Feel free to say that I'm disrespectful and such, but I'd rather get on topic and discuss the topic. There's definitely some cissexist vibes and that's what the thread is about.
Don't complain about my arguments when yours are summed up as botty-burp while denying botty-burp, which happens to be this thread's topic.
Hey I always back my position and I am reactionary but I am not emotional about this.
Kayleigh has been a member here and knows that any claim put out here have to be backed. If Kaleigh can't too fucking bad. Reflects not at all on me or Odeon or Callaway or Rage or anyone else but Kayleigh.
You have read the initial post right? I don't really think it has much at all to do with Kayleigh's ramblings. I just think Kayleigh doesn't like being questioned or contested. Best they delete there account in that case.
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One thing that strikes me as rather odd.
Anyone else get this. Kayleigh must be called Kayleigh and to call Kayleigh GA or Gallieo Ace (Kaleigh's previous username is insulting or wrong)
So what is Kayleigh known as themselves outside of here?
Screen Names
* bourqie(Yahoo! Messenger)
* GalileoAce(Google Talk)
* GalileoAce(Skype)
* GalileoAce(Twitter)
* GalileoAce@hotmail.com(Windows Live Messenger)
Website
* http://galileoace.com
Email
* galileoace@gmail.com
* kayleigh.bourquin@gmail.com
Facebook facebook.com/GalileoAce
You guys see something slightly strange here?
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rissy - dont expect anyone to ever stay on topic here, no matter how serious an issue might seem. Also, if you act sensitive about something you've really got a target on your head.
I totally agree with you there, it's where Kayleigh went wrong. But I'm saying I'm here to debate the issue and not deal with petty flaming. If all you can do is resort to trolling and insults, you have absolutely no argument. Most people here seem to be respectfully careless about transpeople. That's fine. But I'd like to debate with Odean since he's vocally cissexist and actually discusses his view. I'd like to talk to Swearengen too, but he seems to busy trolling and crying to put up an intellectual argument. I'm happy to talk to anyone who wants to debate or discuss things with me. I'm a bit of a bitch, but I like to stay level-headed and on topic is my replies.
Someone make an argument how swearengen and odean aren't being cissexist or make pro-botty-burp comments. Right now I just see trolling. I'm going to assume I'm winning this argument if no one makes a proper argument. >:D
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130127775268.png)
And since when is GA not usable? Kayleigh is her name and GA is a username she still uses...
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I'd like to talk to Swearengen too, but he seems to busy trolling and crying to put up an intellectual argument.
I'm going to assume I'm winning this argument if no one makes a proper argument. >:D
Yup your argument certainly makes no sense. I am not "crying" nor does one "cry to put up an intellectual argument".
But by all means, if that is your idea of a proper argument, or winning, have at it. :)
I'm happy to talk to anyone who wants to debate or discuss things with me. I'm a bit of a bitch, but I like to stay level-headed and on topic is my replies.
Fair enough. Yes you do seem a little more level-headed. Right or wrong or indifferent? Dunno. Give it a crack and time will tell.
To be honest my investment as mentioned is not that great. Hell we may be cissexist. I don't believe so and I really do not think I would care that much if I was. But I think keeping a level head is good and backing yourself is better. I can respect that.
I generally just react. That is my way. Not above learning nor apologising for a wrong I believe merits an apology or change where I think it bears merit, but I will be damned if I will be accused and lectured and preached at.
Someone make an argument how swearengen and odean aren't being cissexist or make pro-botty-burp comments
I think you made the claim so take the floor. Kayleigh's efforts were up to shit but see how you go making a case for it either way.
BTW: You may want to show examples of me trolling here in this debate too. I can't see it and it is evident to both you an Kayleigh so better back that too. No I will not accept a differing point of view nor fiercely contested debate as trolling. Proper examples
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If anyone is ever mean to me I sure hope some noob signs up an account to defend me, and hopefully has the foresight to compare everything to autism because that's a new tactic that we have never before seen on these boards and appears to be highly effective. I know that this action would make my position 100% more credible, and leave the casual reader with a much higher opinion of me. :autism:
So, if Kayleigh has quit the forum why are we arguing over which pronoun to use? Is she worried that we are going to refer to him incorrectly in the third person after she has departed?
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Changed my mind just slightly. One last post before my account is deleted per request.
5 posts ago :happydance:
Here for 4 more days. Four more days of preachy and insensible ramblings? :lol:
All good. May actually get more sense from Rissy. Rissy seems as they say to have more of a level-head and is less emotional. There may be more sense to be had.
I am an optimist maybe after all. ,
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I was just teasing with the whole winning thing. And I just meant that you seemed to be attacking individuals for personal reasons rather than arguing any point at them. You do seem to have personal reasons for disliking Kayleigh and are just trying to hurt her rather than debate with her. You seem a bit emotional and as you said, you're just reacting. I just tend to say people are crying when they get emotional about it.
If you look at bodaccea's last post, that's a the sort of response to give without caring too much. Transpeople were born with the wrong gender identity and so the body just feels wrong. It's like some kind of body horror that you're born into. All they do is modify their bodies as best they can and act the way they want. While you can't really cross over all the way, you still have the opposite gender. They want to be acknowledged for their mind and personality and not for physical make up. And considering how biology isn't black and white like that, someone's mind is what really matters about someone. You don't have to date a transgirl you're not attracted to, but you should understand that she is socially a girl. It's under social circumstances that you call a transgirl a girl and use female pronouns, and vice versa for transguys. Its just simple respect. The practice of acknowledging people for what they do and not for what they look like.
I don't understand the concept of male and female being just about sexual characteristics. If they were dependent of your ability to, and role in reproduction, I could understand. But infertile or deformed people still have gender placed on them. And gender labeling is used for social purposes rather than sexual purposes.
But generally botty-burp is about disrespect and discrimination against transpeople. Transphobia tends to be more about violence and more serious things. I do think it's cissexist if you can't respect pronouns of others. Struggling with them are okay, but if you're not acknowledging someones identity, it's offensive and hurtful. I compared it to autism before because some people seem to think asperger's is crap too. I mean saying that transpeople are deluded is definitely insulting. And some people are kind of saying it is.
I think this topic was started because people weren't quick to defend transpeople, which may be true, and kind of sucks. But if you can be considerate to transpeople, it's okay enough.
And I'm sure you have friends Hubert. And I never claimed to be original or anything special. I joined because I wanted to join this discussion. I'm sure to get bored and argue with people on other random forums too, maybe reappearing unexpectantly again sometime. I just like to debate against stuff I don't agree with. There's still Heinrich here and such, so it's not like Kayleigh is the only person here that may be hurt
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I was just teasing with the whole winning thing. And I just meant that you seemed to be attacking individuals for personal reasons rather than arguing any point at them. You do seem to have personal reasons for disliking Kayleigh and such and are just trying to hurt them rather than debate with them. You seem a bit emotional and as you said, you're just reacting. I just tend to say people are crying when they get emotional about it.
If you look at bodaccea's last post, that's a the sort of response to give without caring too much. Transpeople were born with the wrong gender identity and so the body just feels wrong. It's like some kind of body horror that you're born into. All they do is modify their bodies as best they can and act the way they want. While you can't really cross over all the way, you still have the opposite gender. They want to be acknowledged for their mind and personality and not for physical make up. And considering how biology isn't black and white like that, someone's mind is what really matters about someone. You don't have to date a transgirl you're not attracted to, but you should understand that she is socially a girl. It's under social circumstances that you call a transgirl a girl and use female pronouns, and vice versa for transguys. Its just simple respect. The practice of acknowledging people for what they do and not for what they look like.
I don't understand the concept of male and female being just about sexual characteristics. If they were dependent of your ability to, and role in reproduction, I could understand. But infertile or deformed people still have gender placed on them. And gender labeling is used for social purposes rather than sexual purposes.
But generally botty-burp is about disrespect and discrimination against transpeople. Transphobia tends to be more about violence and more serious things. I do think it's cissexist if you can't respect pronouns of others. Struggling with them are okay, but if you're not acknowledging someones identity, it's offensive and hurtful. I compared it to autism before because some people seem to think asperger's is crap too. I mean saying that transpeople are deluded is definitely insulting. And some people are kind of saying it is.
I think this topic was started because people weren't quick to defend transpeople, which may be true, and kind of sucks. But if you can be considerate to transpeople, it's okay enough.
And I'm sure you have friends Hubert. And I never claimed to be original or anything special. I joined because I wanted to join this discussion. I'm sure to get bored and argue with people on other random forums too, maybe reappearing unexpectantly again sometime. I just like to debate against stuff I don't agree with. There's still Heinrich here and such, so it's not like Kayleigh is the only person here that may be hurt
Just for lulz, ask Heinrich if he feels that he needs you to defend him.
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One thing that strikes me as rather odd.
Anyone else get this. Kayleigh must be called Kayleigh and to call Kayleigh GA or Gallieo Ace (Kaleigh's previous username is insulting or wrong)
So what is Kayleigh known as themselves outside of here?
Screen Names
* bourqie(Yahoo! Messenger)
* GalileoAce(Google Talk)
* GalileoAce(Skype)
* GalileoAce(Twitter)
* GalileoAce@hotmail.com(Windows Live Messenger)
Website
* http://galileoace.com
Email
* galileoace@gmail.com
* kayleigh.bourquin@gmail.com
Facebook facebook.com/GalileoAce
You guys see something slightly strange here?
She deosn't want people calling her GA? I didn't know that. When did she say that?
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And as for this discussion affecting what steps I take about my sex, I don't think it will make much difference really. It's not gonna make me less likely to go through with anything, as IRL responses to my gender are obviously worse than online. I can handle it online easily (I can handle IRL abuse as well unless it gets physical, it is obviously just harder)
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Do I need to be defending anyone? I'm too evil to be a white knight...
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I don't need defending, no :P
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I don't need defending, no :P
Indeed, you are :viking:
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:agreed:
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:agreed:
:indeed:
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I was just teasing with the whole winning thing. And I just meant that you seemed to be attacking individuals for personal reasons rather than arguing any point at them. You do seem to have personal reasons for disliking Kayleigh and are just trying to hurt her rather than debate with her. You seem a bit emotional and as you said, you're just reacting. I just tend to say people are crying when they get emotional about it.
If you look at bodaccea's last post, that's a the sort of response to give without caring too much. Transpeople were born with the wrong gender identity and so the body just feels wrong. It's like some kind of body horror that you're born into. All they do is modify their bodies as best they can and act the way they want. While you can't really cross over all the way, you still have the opposite gender. They want to be acknowledged for their mind and personality and not for physical make up. And considering how biology isn't black and white like that, someone's mind is what really matters about someone. You don't have to date a transgirl you're not attracted to, but you should understand that she is socially a girl. It's under social circumstances that you call a transgirl a girl and use female pronouns, and vice versa for transguys. Its just simple respect. The practice of acknowledging people for what they do and not for what they look like.
I don't understand the concept of male and female being just about sexual characteristics. If they were dependent of your ability to, and role in reproduction, I could understand. But infertile or deformed people still have gender placed on them. And gender labeling is used for social purposes rather than sexual purposes.
But generally botty-burp is about disrespect and discrimination against transpeople. Transphobia tends to be more about violence and more serious things. I do think it's cissexist if you can't respect pronouns of others. Struggling with them are okay, but if you're not acknowledging someones identity, it's offensive and hurtful. I compared it to autism before because some people seem to think asperger's is crap too. I mean saying that transpeople are deluded is definitely insulting. And some people are kind of saying it is.
I think this topic was started because people weren't quick to defend transpeople, which may be true, and kind of sucks. But if you can be considerate to transpeople, it's okay enough.
And I'm sure you have friends Hubert. And I never claimed to be original or anything special. I joined because I wanted to join this discussion. I'm sure to get bored and argue with people on other random forums too, maybe reappearing unexpectantly again sometime. I just like to debate against stuff I don't agree with. There's still Heinrich here and such, so it's not like Kayleigh is the only person here that may be hurt
Ah so what 2 days here and 17 posts in and you have an idea of what upsets me or drives me or even what my beliefs are? I find this a rather curious concept. Internet psycho-analysis warp factor nine? :lol:
I am like this all the time and I don't mean to put a downer on what looked to be a nice little follow on, but meh. You could ask others if this is me being overly-emotional but sometimes the things we imagine are far more powerful than what is. Ask Kayleigh.
Now two points I guess. The first is that I was "attacking Kayleigh" personality rather than Kayleigh's gender? Correct. The truth was that I have no real need in my mind to defend my values and I had no issue with trangenderism and was "attacked" by Kayleigh (as you pointed out). It is not the first time Kayleigh has done this. Someone raises anything to do with Transgender and in flounces Kayleigh giving sermons, posting must read links and tell us what we should think and how terrible we are for not holding their worldview over something that we simply don't give a shit about.
So attack Kayleigh personally? Sure why not? Nothing I said was a troll it is sentiments felt by myself and others due to Kayleigh's asshattery.
As to Kayleigh's points in general about Transgenderism? Yes marginalised people get marginalised and picked on and it is shitty. Yes there is bigotry to all marginalised groups. No it is not fair. Yes being on the receiving end of indifference or bigotry is not fun. Understood. Autistics get it too. It sucks.
Specifically, no we are not collectively in need of damning, lecturing, re-educating, or being labelled as phobic because some of us really don't care to give this issue much thought. I will tell you another thing. I do not give the persecution of Jewish people throughout history or Cerebal Palsy sufferers or of the Refugees in Villawood or political prisoners in Guantanemo Bay much thought. Sure I think it sucks and I understand a little about their plight but their world and there problems and their struggles simply has no real place in my life and I have no overwhelming need to embrace it and educate or rail against myself for not being an activist for their causes. None of these things has the least impact in my life and I actually refuse to feel bad for not learning more or making a greater effort to understand and appreciate the condition. It has no impact on my life. The issues with transgenderism are similar in the respect of how they impact my life, personally and my desire to know more.
As terrible as it sounds. Why should I care? I Know Kayleigh cares and it has a large impact on Kayleigh's life and Kayleigh would care but why should I??
Now if you have wrapped your mind around this concept I want you to go the next logical step. If I and others don't care, would it follow we are negative or bigoted? Think on it. Presume that we are marginalised ourself and also presume by and large we do not have have any investment in transgenderism and little contact with transpeople IRL. So no fear or issue and that by and large on here we hate everyone about the same.
Tell me where your suggestion of botty-burp or transphobia may rate in our consciousness collectively or individually?
Final point I have yet to see you back the claim of trolling and kind of would like to sex whether this was a fishing exercise or you actually had anything substantial. I know you have come in here like a bit of a firecracker and that is good. I like a bit of spirit and strong opinions. I have a few myself. I do want you tpo back yourself though and not hide behind the "Oh I was joking" or "I misread" that would make you look rather weak or stupid and I don't want to see that happen because you seem like a reasonable and a smart person. Would like those answers though.
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Do I need to be defending anyone? I'm too evil to be a white knight...
Hi Rissy and :welcome: to Intensity.
What's your connection to GA? I ask this because you seem to have more of an emotional investment in this discussion than you would have if the two of you weren't very close.
I'm not comfortable calling GA "she" because I first knew him for more than five years as a "he" and it doesn't seem that long ago that I was looking at his and renaeden's wedding pictures. I know that this whole situation has hurt renaeden very much and I identify with her perspective more than I identify with GA's. It seems obvious to me that she cares more about GA's feelings than GA cares about hers. I explained this to GA several months ago and that as a compromise, I would try to leave out gender pronouns as much as possible when referring to GA and at the time, we seemed to understand one another. Now GA seems to be having a snit fit over me not calling him a "she" and me saying that perhaps GA's increased mood swings could be related to the estrogen GA takes, which I think is pretty obvious. I think that stating a rather obvious fact does not mean that the person stating it is transphobic or misogynistic.
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Poor you, not comfortable with calling her "she" :'(
If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?
And I know I will get shit for this post, but I don't care. I think that's a pathetic stance to take
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If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?
What a bizarre thing to say. Maybe I missed something. Is renaeden the bar that is set on this subject? Why?
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Eh?
In Callaway's case, that seems to be the reason, yes. She's repeatedly said she won't call GA "she" because of renaeden and because she "identifies more with her perspective"
So yes, I think the fact that renaeden is accepting what is happening and now calls her "she" is relevant here
In other cases of people not calling her "she," no. But in Callaway's case , yes
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Poor you, not comfortable with calling her "she" :'(
If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?
And I know I will get shit for this post, but I don't care. I think that's a pathetic stance to take
I guess I would ask, who the hell is GA to throw a snit fit if there's someone on the other side of the world who doesn't call him a "she"?
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Not gonna address the point?
At least in her case it is actually about her. In your case it's about someone else.
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Hey, I guess I really ought to have introduced myself first, but I wanted to defend Kayleigh and join the discussion. A forum can talk about anything so I don't see why any topic is to irrelevant to post as long as it's in the right section. And they're talking about users of I^2, which is what makes this thread relevant.
Here's a counter argument, if it's too hard to acknowledge transsexualism, then it's too hard to acknowledge autism and therefore I^2 is really just a forum of social retards who need to grow up and learn to act neurotypical :P (Not my opinion, I'm just making a comparison)
That's not an argument, it's an assumption that you can directly compare the two.
Hypocrites don't deserve what they don't give. If you're gonna treat Kayleigh like shit, then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love. Respect isn't a divine right, it's something you have to share. Curses come home to roost, and thus if you don't respect people you don't get any respect or sympathy for your situation.
Agreed, in principle. GA is behaving like a self-important cunt, ergo he gets treated like one. Somehow I have the feeling that wasn't your point, though.
Transsexualism has got to do with identity programmed into the brain. Kayleigh was born with her brain telling her to be a girl. Being a repressed object for people to use how they want to use you is a pathetic way of living, so she went and did something about acting and living the way she wished to live. What's the relevance of transsexualism to austism? Maybe it should be kinship since they're both not neurotypical.
I e, wiring problems. Disabilities. Abnormalities. Both can be seen as nature fucking up in one way or another. It takes more than a wiring problem to create a woman by mistake or error, however, which is why objectively, it is reasonable to assume that GA was meant to be a male but there were problems along the way, much like I was meant to be a well-functioning social individual but nature fucked up.
In terms of use of pronouns and such? It's really just a social issue. If you want to take a definition based on the reproductive capabilities, infertile people forfeit a gender. If you can't help reproduce, you're just a living creature of no sexual importance. In real terms, the use of gender labeling is just a social construction and really reflects more on identity and the way people act and present themselves. The binary gender system is obviously crap, but that's how society is constructed and trying to really be thorough with classifications is complicated and eventually needs to be cut somewhere. Maybe the five gender system is better, but I'd still have complaints. But since pronouns are more relevant to gender than sex, it is better to use them as such. Its about respect, and I don't see how it matters when it's not as simple as people treat it.
It's nowhere near "obviously" crap, actually. It's how the human reproductive mechanisms are designed. You may not like it, but the number of people having problems with this is small and nowhere near enough to assume anything else than my above statement, namely that "nature fucked up". I'm sure it makes you feel less of a freak to redefine things but to claim that binary gender system is merely a social construct is laughable.
Before you accuse me of transphobia, etc, and blow up like GA did, please note that all I'm saying is that it's a problem of the brain, just as autism is a problem of the brain. It was not meant to happen that way but it did. You should have been able to function within the binary system, we should have been able to interact with the majority, the blind should have seen, etc, but it didn't happen because the world is not fair and never was.
It also means that black remains black, white remains white, and the definitions of basic human reproductive biology stay pretty much the same.
Oh, and welcome, etc.
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(I didn't ask Rissy to join I2, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone tbh)
Ok so there appears to be at least two issues at play here.
First being the misgendering and refusal to use the pronouns I prefer.
Second being my apparent misconduct in explaining my position.
On the first, specifically Odeon's rebuttal that it takes concious effort; A lot of things take conscious effort. Like make allowances for autistic behaviour, and making spaces safe for autistic people. Applying your apparent logic to that would mean no one should really bother to make any allowances for autistic people, or indeed any differently able people because it take a conscious effort for them to do so. It's poor logic.
Conscious effort *here*. Did you deliberately try to generalise the issue? Poor logic, if so.
But then again, you only have to take a quick look at the outside world to see that you are wrong. Most people don't give a shit. They do not make any allowances unless it is in their interest to do so. Don't like it? Tough.
On the second, I don't believe I used emotional manipulation at all. Point out some examples from this thread where I have done so?
This issue is close to me, obviously. And I am engaged in spreading awareness and understanding of the issues, not just for transpeople, but for all diverse sexuality and gender people, and for autism and other disabilities. I'm a bit of an activist in that respect. I believe in knowledge and the reduction of ignorance. Yes I am passionate, and that shows in how I present my arguments. But I have never tried to emotionally manipulate anyone, that would be disingenuous and false conduct and would really undercut the validity of my arguments.
Yet by stating that you'll leave, etc, that's exactly what you are doing, especially when you keep coming back.
Self important blowhard? Self important maybe, but only to the extent that THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT ME. Hard not to be self important in such a situation, I think. Blowhard...I'm not even sure what that means to be honest.
No it's not. Read the thread.
Google will know. "A person who talks too much or too loudly, especially in a boastful or self-important manner". Hrm, I guess that might be accurate, but again, the two main arguments of this thread is about me. "GA is not a woman" "he" and "GA is an arrogant [...]" it's all about me. A bit hard not to be boastful or self-important. Do I talk too much? Possibly. But only in an endeavour to drive my point home.
Those two are the "main" arguments in this thread? The world doesn't revolve around you. Not even this thread.
My aim has always been to educate. Apart from people like Bint or Soph or Hyke, and maybe a few others, you all do seem to lack an understanding of some of issues about trans people. Call that arrogant or whatever, but that is how you appear. And you're only being wilfully ignorant to argue otherwise.
Try listening to what we are saying and maybe you'd get something more out of this thing.
I know, for a fact, that I am ignorant about a great many things. I can accept this, and I can only argue from a position of knowledge, whether actual or assumed.
I would like to thank Farnsworth, Rage, and others for referring to me as she. That's all I've ever asked for really.
I don't understand what I have done against you Odeon, for you to treat me with such disrespect. I've always respected you and thought you were a nice guy.
You might want to consider your part in this. I replied honestly but you did not like my views. Seems you refused to even consider them.
I posted about this thread on my Facebook wall, and two other forums. Excluding the forums as they're populated by trans people, on Facebook, I've had about half a dozen people exclaim surprise and horror at the comments expressed in this thread. Sure they're all friends of mine, but very few of them are as knowledgeable about trans issues as I would prefer. And they can all see how hurtful and disrespectful you've been to me and in some ways Soph.
The larger problem is I don't know how to discern the legitimate opinions from the trolling. So I take it all as serious and respond in kind.
No you don't. You take any disagreements as personal attacks and that is just not true. Go back and read what I said, the post you got your knickers in a twist for, see if there is another way of reading it than your knee-jerk reactions.
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>:( Stupid computer... I lost my post.
Past history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
It's late, so I don't have time to rewrite the post I made (And my hand is fractured, forcing me to one hand type) But I wasn't claiming to totally read Swearengen or anything. I was just presenting my basic analysis and perception. It shouldn't be remarkable enough to worry about. And I think you just have trouble understanding the language and tone I use, I haven't been backing out on anything I said. I've just rephrased it hoping for you to understand my meaning better. I consider it to be trolling when you seek to upset someone with irrelevant comments. The fact you admitted to attacking her gender instead of her behavior is where you showed signs of trolling.
You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect. If you have a problem with using respectful pronouns, it's obvious that you DO care and are showing signs of botty-burp. You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...
Oh... and I guess i'll respond to odean tomorrow <_<
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I agree about what Rissy said about being considerate. I understand mistakes being made because of history, but that's no reason to just call her "he" all the time. Especially in a thread ABOUT this, where it's obviously on your mind while you're writing it, so it's not like you need to make a big effort to put "she" instead of "he." If people continue to call her "he" then it seems that they do care.
For example if someone was used to saying "coloured people" when talking about black people, and someone asked them if they'd stop using that term, would it really be that hard to? Obviously pronouncs are much more common, but it's still the same kind of thing. It doesn't take long to get used to callling someone she instead of he. Plenty of people do it with Kayleigh, and I really don't see how it requires that much effort
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I just wanted to apologise to Rissy
- how rude of me, i forgot to say :welcome:
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It is a perfectly simple and reasonable argument. Dismiss someone else's problems as crap and your own problems can be given the exact same treatment. Don't cry about others having an over-inflated sense of importance when you're just as up-yourself. Turning my argument on Kayleigh hasn't stopped it aiming at you too.
Every aspect of language is a social construct. It's out of your character to suggest that there is any divine reason for anything. And just like humans developed religion, they developed the basic, lacking classifications of everything. It was never black and white, it's just human nature to be lazy and not over complicate things. Life messes up all the time, so its not like its all that rare. When things fuck up so frequently, you might as well make room for it. Some cultures do actually have more than two recognized genders. There's more to life than reproduction and you might as well judge people on their actions and not on their make-up. What are you suggesting that transpeople do? The mind is the essence of a person. The body is just tasty meat.
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You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect.
Hmm...this stands out to me because I don't have to do anything and I don't just automatically respect people because I'm told I have to. That has no direct meaning towards the parties at play given I have no issues with Kayleigh and Soph is someone I'm very close to. Having grown up with a friend who was FTM it's something I'm very comfortable about. But comfort, respect, and acceptance have to do specifically with the people involved. Respect is earned and lost as is acceptance for various reasons.
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I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard." People throwing around that argument are hypocrites. She was attacked by odean's comment and made an angry reply like anyone would. The fact is, you need to give respect to get respect. That applies to everyone on any subject. If you don't show respect and acknowledgement to an individual, you don't make friends and you make poor precedents of previous behavior next time you want to argue for respect and such from someone else.
The anger was spawned from an offensive comment that was filled with someone else's prejudice and views. So she's only humanly insulted and angry. But I already said I want to discuss this and not be a whiteknight. It's kind of petty picking at words instead of meaning. So why don't people start by presenting their views on transsexualism and why they don't want to respect her choice of pronouns and such.
I doubt you actually want to discuss anything. You are simply here to judge.
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I read the whole thread, and I don't remember anyone being "transphobic". I also didnt really see any insulting or hatred going on at all. I think that people should try to be less sensitive and let things roll of their backs. I know that if you went to the hillbilly town I am from, and try to say you are some other gender you are likely to get beat up. THAT is transphobia.
QFT
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I don't think people are being transphobic, but maybe maybe a little cissexist.
I don't have a problem with bodaccea's view. Generally transpeople do leave off the 'trans' part, but in a topic like this, you need to differentiate. Odean and Al Swearengen are the ones that are being loudly cissexist.
I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard."
So that hypocrisy means the position is invalid or valid or are you just deflecting?
I'm just saying that you're just throwing out insults, and ones that can easily be turned back on you. It doesn't strike me as an argument, it's just name-calling.
Kayleigh's rage post is an example of disrespect returning to you. It's obviously an angry, emotional reply. She wasn't in the thread until Odean started saying disrespectful things to her. She refined her rage towards you, Odean and Callaway if you read her post. I don't think you and Callaway deserved it at that point, but maybe she was putting rage and arguments too close together. But Odean did deserve the return of disrespect. Rage posts are obviously immature, but it's not like she didn't have a point amongst it. This thread does have a point though, and you seem too busy hating people for personal reasons to talk about it at all. I'm mostly trying to turn it back into a discussion instead of irrelevantly attacking each other on petty details. Odean might of upset Kayleigh, but at the same time, he was giving his opinion in a way that was on topic.
I'm sure we can all face the facts, it's better to stay level headed in a discussion and getting emotional and angry just leads to meaningless bickering. I agree that her post was bitchy, but I'm finding a lot of your posts in this thread no better. Feel free to say that I'm disrespectful and such, but I'd rather get on topic and discuss the topic. There's definitely some cissexist vibes and that's what the thread is about.
Don't complain about my arguments when yours are summed up as botty-burp while denying botty-burp, which happens to be this thread's topic.
First of all, it's Odeon, not "Odean". Second, you are repeating yourself without ever getting to what the nature of my "attack" was, what those disrespectful things I said were. Third, I2 is the place where you are supposed to back up your words. Did you ever take the time to find out what we are about before rushing here to judge?
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You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...
To be fair, that has nothing to do with gender or transsexualism.
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Obviously getting beaten up for being trans is worse. But I still think there are forms of transphobia that don't involve violence. I mean people can still be racist and homophobic without actually punching someone or killng them
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Someone make an argument how swearengen and odean aren't being cissexist or make pro-botty-burp comments. Right now I just see trolling. I'm going to assume I'm winning this argument if no one makes a proper argument. >:D
???
Guilty until proven innocent?
I think you are a twat and until you prove you aren't I'm clearly winning this argument.
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I don't understand the concept of male and female being just about sexual characteristics. If they were dependent of your ability to, and role in reproduction, I could understand. But infertile or deformed people still have gender placed on them. And gender labeling is used for social purposes rather than sexual purposes.
Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.
Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".
How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?
I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.
But generally botty-burp is about disrespect and discrimination against transpeople. Transphobia tends to be more about violence and more serious things. I do think it's cissexist if you can't respect pronouns of others. Struggling with them are okay, but if you're not acknowledging someones identity, it's offensive and hurtful. I compared it to autism before because some people seem to think asperger's is crap too. I mean saying that transpeople are deluded is definitely insulting. And some people are kind of saying it is.
Deluded? I have certainly not said anything of the kind.
BTW, I compared it to autism before you even joined. Do try to catch up.
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Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.
Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".
How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?
I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.
I think this is bullshit myself (and yes, you are free to see it that way, I'm not trying to forcfe you to change that)
Man and woman are different to male and female. Saying someone is a woman doesn't mean they're saying they're biologically female. Obviously that is usually the case, but with someone who is a pre-op MTF, I can still view them as a woman and that doesn't mean I'm saying theyre biologically female
I mean if I was having a scientific discussion with someone, I wouldn't use the terms "man and woman" any more than I'd use "boy and girl." They're bot about biology imo. If I walk down the road, I see men and women, I have no idea if they've got a penis, ovaries, XX, XY, vagina, whatever.
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Obviously getting beaten up for being trans is worse. But I still think there are forms of transphobia that don't involve violence. I mean people can still be racist and homophobic without actually punching someone or killng them
Yes, quite possibly, but I have yet to see any of it here.
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Obviously getting beaten up for being trans is worse. But I still think there are forms of transphobia that don't involve violence. I mean people can still be racist and homophobic without actually punching someone or killng them
Yes, quite possibly, but I have yet to see any of it here.
Recently, I don't think so. In the past there has been some though, so the little things like pronouns do then make it seem like those views haven't changed. Rightly or wrongly
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Wow, this is still going.
I'll ask you again Rissy, why do you care? The individual referenced has quit the site, and our other trans-gendered member is very capable of defending himself. Is this some kind of cathartic moment for you?
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Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.
Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".
How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?
I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.
I think this is bullshit myself (and yes, you are free to see it that way, I'm not trying to forcfe you to change that)
Man and woman are different to male and female. Saying someone is a woman doesn't mean they're saying they're biologically female. Obviously that is usually the case, but with someone who is a pre-op MTF, I can still view them as a woman and that doesn't mean I'm saying theyre biologically female
I mean if I was having a scientific discussion with someone, I wouldn't use the terms "man and woman" any more than I'd use "boy and girl." They're bot about biology imo. If I walk down the road, I see men and women, I have no idea if they've got a penis, ovaries, XX, XY, vagina, whatever.
As in "be a man and back up your words"? If that is what we measure against I can't see GA becoming one anytime soon. And that was a personal attack, btw, not transphobia or botty-burp.
BTW, I looked up "woman", just out of curiosity. The definition is "a female human", which is pretty much what I've been saying all along, so I guess we are not going to agree, no.
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Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.
Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".
How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?
I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.
I think this is bullshit myself (and yes, you are free to see it that way, I'm not trying to forcfe you to change that)
Man and woman are different to male and female. Saying someone is a woman doesn't mean they're saying they're biologically female. Obviously that is usually the case, but with someone who is a pre-op MTF, I can still view them as a woman and that doesn't mean I'm saying theyre biologically female
I mean if I was having a scientific discussion with someone, I wouldn't use the terms "man and woman" any more than I'd use "boy and girl." They're bot about biology imo. If I walk down the road, I see men and women, I have no idea if they've got a penis, ovaries, XX, XY, vagina, whatever.
As in "be a man and back up your words"? If that is what we measure against I can't see GA becoming one anytime soon. And that was a personal attack, btw, not transphobia or botty-burp.
BTW, I looked up "woman", just out of curiosity. The definition is "a female human", which is pretty much what I've been saying all along, so I guess we are not going to agree, no.
I'm not going by dictionaries, no. I'm going by usage, which ultimately dictates dictionary definitions.
Would you consider a baby a "woman", just because she's a female human?
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Wow, this is still going.
I'll ask you again Rissy, why do you care? The individual referenced has quit the site, and our other trans-gendered member is very capable of defending himself. Is this some kind of cathartic moment for you?
The individual referenced is milking this thread for all it's worth so methinks the individual is attempting to redefine more than just reproductive binarism. ::)
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Did you actually read and understand what I wrote? Not every member of the species will be able to reproduce, for various reasons, but nevertheless, the process of reproducing is the whole point. It's a binary thing, as you said, and you don't actually get to redefine that. You can say that you've always felt like a man or a woman and that's perfectly all right. You can't, however, change the definition to suit you because biologically it just won't be true.
Consider that botty-burp? Fine. You'll find that quite a few scientists researching the topic are equally "disrespectful".
How is that disrespectful, though? How is it disrespectful of me to refuse to accept that you wish to change those definitions, not because of any relevance to the basic science behind but because you wish to broaden the definition to allow for a tiny minority without the necessary biological qualifications?
I could say it's rather disrespectful of you to try to force your definitions on me.
I think this is bullshit myself (and yes, you are free to see it that way, I'm not trying to forcfe you to change that)
Man and woman are different to male and female. Saying someone is a woman doesn't mean they're saying they're biologically female. Obviously that is usually the case, but with someone who is a pre-op MTF, I can still view them as a woman and that doesn't mean I'm saying theyre biologically female
I mean if I was having a scientific discussion with someone, I wouldn't use the terms "man and woman" any more than I'd use "boy and girl." They're bot about biology imo. If I walk down the road, I see men and women, I have no idea if they've got a penis, ovaries, XX, XY, vagina, whatever.
As in "be a man and back up your words"? If that is what we measure against I can't see GA becoming one anytime soon. And that was a personal attack, btw, not transphobia or botty-burp.
BTW, I looked up "woman", just out of curiosity. The definition is "a female human", which is pretty much what I've been saying all along, so I guess we are not going to agree, no.
I'm not going by dictionaries, no. I'm going by usage, which ultimately dictates dictionary definitions.
Yes, which is why dictionaries still go with that awful binarism.
Would you consider a baby a "woman", just because she's a female human?
Guess what a "girl" is.
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What I'm saying is that these things change as language evolves
When I hear people talking about "men and women", they're not talking about biology. When they're talking about biology they use "male and female"
And yes obviously there will be plenty of examples of people doing otherwise, but generally, that is the case
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Although I dunno why we're even discussing this :autism:
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I know what you are saying. I just disagree with you on the when and the what and the how. :zoinks:
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and the who and the way and the where? :zoinks:
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and the who and the way and the where? :zoinks:
Not the where. I think we both agree on the dictionary. :smarty:
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Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.
Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.
Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.
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Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.
:agreed:
This is something I've tried saying before. At first, to a lot of people, fixing the brain seems like less work than fixing the body, but when you think about it, it's definitely the other way round
I'd rather go through all the shit of hormones and surgery than change my brain. This kinda comes down to my views on the difference between who and what someone is though.
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Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.
Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.
Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.
I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.
Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.
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But I don't think it's something that would ever be simple enough to fix just like that. It would mean really altering your brain.
Surely changing the exterior (the "shell") makes more sense than fucking around with the brain
Also I would more expect it to be that a trans person was "meant" to be the sex they identify as, rather than "meant" to identify as the sex they are
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>:( Stupid computer... I lost my post.
Past history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
It's late, so I don't have time to rewrite the post I made (And my hand is fractured, forcing me to one hand type) But I wasn't claiming to totally read Swearengen or anything. I was just presenting my basic analysis and perception. It shouldn't be remarkable enough to worry about. And I think you just have trouble understanding the language and tone I use, I haven't been backing out on anything I said. I've just rephrased it hoping for you to understand my meaning better. I consider it to be trolling when you seek to upset someone with irrelevant comments. The fact you admitted to attacking her gender instead of her behavior is where you showed signs of trolling.
You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect. If you have a problem with using respectful pronouns, it's obvious that you DO care and are showing signs of botty-burp. You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...
Oh... and I guess i'll respond to odean tomorrow <_<
If that's directed to me, I don't hate GA or feel bitter and I'm perfectly happy to live and let live, but you seem to be asking for more than that. You're asking me to make a concerted conscious effort to call someone that I have known for years as a "he" a "she".
I don't see why I have to do anything unless I want to.
Respect is a two-way street and I see GA demanding respect and effort from others without offering respect to others first.
I see condescending lectures and name-calling if others do not comply with GA's wishes.
Besides, GA has already given notice to delete the account in less than a week, so why is this even an issue?
Why didn't you answer my question about your relationship with GA?
Do I need to be defending anyone? I'm too evil to be a white knight...
Hi Rissy and :welcome: to Intensity.
What's your connection to GA? I ask this because you seem to have more of an emotional investment in this discussion than you would have if the two of you weren't very close.
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Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.
Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.
Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.
I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.
Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.
Will depend on costs indeed. And will still take at least a couple of decades. So, not something for Soph at all. And society settings don't have to be costly.
And, genderbending is still happening. Gay lib benefited a lot from well liked gay celebs. Some famous, and liked trans people will make a difference. Because people seem to kind of bond with the people they see a lot in their own living-room on TV. Celebs sometimes almost get a kind of family status.
And plastic surgery, that's no big deal for a lot of people by now. Why would it be a big deal for someone who wants a gender change?
With autism, I don't think they will try to "fix" it. Think they are more likely to find ways to change autism in something that can be economically interesting. Kind of pedigree moulding of different types of people on the spectrum. And I do find that a scary thought.
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But I don't think it's something that would ever be simple enough to fix just like that. It would mean really altering your brain.
Surely changing the exterior (the "shell") makes more sense than fucking around with the brain
Also I would more expect it to be that a trans person was "meant" to be the sex they identify as, rather than "meant" to identify as the sex they are
That is what I was trying to address in the post that sent GA into a fit.
The "shell", as you call it, developed first. It was decided before there was any consciousness or indeed a brain. Therefore it makes more sense, logically, that the set of chromosomes is what nature meant to do rather than whatever it is that happened with the brain's wiring some time after that.
Logically, then, it makes more sense to correct that wiring problem. It would probably be far less intrusive, procedurally speaking, than actually creating a specimen of the others sex, capable of everything that person would want.
And do note that in addition to changing the "shell" (in my mind that is a bit too superficial because the biological functions go further than that) you would have to change the whole society and that, as we already know, is hardest of all because bigotry and hatred is everywhere.
BW, I would argue the same re autism.
And finally, I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to make such an alteration in the brain. I do know that correctable brain damage, cancer, etc, can easily and dramatically change one's personality, and I also know that those things can often be fixed.
/me is now awaiting the inevitable hissy fit from GA
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Besides, GA has already given notice to delete the account in less than a week, so why is this even an issue?
It's an issue because it's not about GA. Obviously GA is the example here, but the main thing is not about her.
Why didn't you answer my question about your relationship with GA?
Again, why is it so hard for you to call her "she"?
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Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.
Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.
Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.
I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.
Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.
Will depend on costs indeed. And will still take at least a couple of decades. So, not something for Soph at all. And society settings don't have to be costly.
And, genderbending is still happening. Gay lib benefited a lot from well liked gay celebs. Some famous, and liked trans people will make a difference. Because people seem to kind of bond with the people they see a lot in their own living-room on TV. Celebs sometimes almost get a kind of family status.
And plastic surgery, that's no big deal for a lot of people by now. Why would it be a big deal for someone who wants a gender change?
With autism, I don't think they will try to "fix" it. Think they are more likely to find ways to change autism in something that can be economically interesting. Kind of pedigree moulding of different types of people on the spectrum. And I do find that a scary thought.
I'm not sure I share your optimism re the gender-bending. I have a lot of arguments re why it's comparatively easy for gays to be accepted in and by society but I'm afraid I'm going to bed instead.
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I still think I'd much rather do it this way than risk messing with my brain (I mean my brain is obviously fucked already, I don't want it even worse :autism: )
And yeah, I take your point bout the physical sex being determined earlier. I wasn';teven thinkign of chromosomes at the time as a lot of people don't have chromosomes that match their physical sex. And I mean when you're talking about people this applies to, not the entire population
But yeah if you're XX or XY is obviously determined much earlier
btw (for anyone), when do you guys think the wiring of the brain went wrong then? At some point in the womb?
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Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.
Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.
Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.
I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.
Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.
Will depend on costs indeed. And will still take at least a couple of decades. So, not something for Soph at all. And society settings don't have to be costly.
And, genderbending is still happening. Gay lib benefited a lot from well liked gay celebs. Some famous, and liked trans people will make a difference. Because people seem to kind of bond with the people they see a lot in their own living-room on TV. Celebs sometimes almost get a kind of family status.
And plastic surgery, that's no big deal for a lot of people by now. Why would it be a big deal for someone who wants a gender change?
With autism, I don't think they will try to "fix" it. Think they are more likely to find ways to change autism in something that can be economically interesting. Kind of pedigree moulding of different types of people on the spectrum. And I do find that a scary thought.
I'm not sure I share your optimism re the gender-bending. I have a lot of arguments re why it's comparatively easy for gays to be accepted in and by society but I'm afraid I'm going to bed instead.
For someone changing gender, there should be no problem, apart from medical ones, after the transition has been done. Yeah, you'd probably still be able to tell with late transitions, but, there are enough people who don't fit the image of the gender they are born with and identify with that perfect. So, not a too big deal I think.
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I still think I'd much rather do it this way than risk messing with my brain (I mean my brain is obviously fucked already, I don't want it even worse :autism: )
And yeah, I take your point bout the physical sex being determined earlier. I wasn';teven thinkign of chromosomes at the time as a lot of people don't have chromosomes that match their physical sex. And I mean when you're talking about people this applies to, not the entire population
But yeah if you're XX or XY is obviously determined much earlier
btw (for anyone), when do you guys think the wiring of the brain went wrong then? At some point in the womb?
I'd think in the womb indeed. Would not surprise me if there would be research on that.
There has been a lot of research on the occurring of homosexuality. And they found various indicators that could "induce" homosexuality.
IIRC there has been research on brains of trans people who died. I guess the location of clear differences in the brain would be able to tell when in the development those changes started.
Too tired and too late for me to google for that now though.
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I haevn't reallly looked into it much but I'm sure there's research on it yeah
tbh I don;t wanna start researching stuff like this as I don't wanna become one of those people who are defined solely by what they are and come across as obsessed by it (whether autism, trans stuff or otherwise). What I look up is what affects me and what I can do about it, I try to stay out of the causes stuff, outside of random discussions like this
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Again, why is it so hard for you to call her "she"?
As I said before in this thread, we're just as entitled to refer to people to our own terms just as much as they refer themselves with theirs.
I call you she, I call GA he. I don't see it as a sign of disrespect, just that it makes it easier for my brain to understand etc etc. I'll not stop you or others referring you to your preferred gender however, not my place to do so. I don't see why I *should* be forced to call you he (even though you most likely don't, just saying) though, seems a bit pedantic and controlling that way.
However, I deliberately do it out of disrespect for GA. Not because of his transistion, but because of his haughty stuck up holier-than-thou attitude that he harbors. I know it annoys him and I actively use it as a weapon, and I will go to great lengths to piss him off even if it involved photoshopping trannies being hung in concentration camps. If he happened to be an alright person with a SENSE OF HUMOUR, then I'd not really mock him over his transistion since he'll know I'm not being serious.
As for transphobia in general, yes I am apathetic about it. In my opinion it is their problem to fix, not mine, since I am not a transgender.
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I agree that people shouldn't be forced to. I don't think I;ve ever tried to force people here (or elsewhere) to call me "he". I don't think I've even asked
. I hope not anyway
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Besides, GA has already given notice to delete the account in less than a week, so why is this even an issue?
It's an issue because it's not about GA. Obviously GA is the example here, but the main thing is not about her.
Why didn't you answer my question about your relationship with GA?
Again, why is it so hard for you to call her "she"?
IIRC Callaway has said before that she feels it is uncomfortable due to Renaeden's feelings toward GA and etc. (that probably sounded harsher than meant apologies , I have the tact of a cuttlefish today :P) When you've known someone for ages as one gender to suddenly have to call them another is very difficult I imagine, even less easy when that persona makes quite as many demands as GA does.
While on the subject of GA , I don't know you and I certainly don't particularly care for you after your recent posts.
I know I recently did a callout on two homophobic members (one of them not being) , but that was due to them not backing themselves up, you can't order people change to your views instantly, people have disagreed with you and they have backed themselves up.
You on the other hand have jumped up and down when you have not gotten your own way , it's not going to happen and if you are leaving over this then good riddance to such a condescending , arrogant and demanding child member. :thumbdn:
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You haven't bitched about it Soph, so it's okay. At least you have a sense of humour anyway.
As for Bint: Perhaps you should start using a thing called "rationality". Your fucking emo rambling about useless bollocks is getting on my man-tits as of late. Oh well, bint'll probably claim she's trans next week anyway and try to awkwardly brofist, then will either change from either straight to lesbian every hour.
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Been waiting for her to post here again. Too many pages of posts to care the last couple of days though.
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I've only got on Emma's laptop after days of not going online, so my itch to rant is VERY high. :zoinks:
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IIRC Callaway has said before that she feels it is uncomfortable due to Renaeden's feelings toward GA and etc.
Yeah she's said that a few times, but renaeden herself now calls GA "she" and is trying to deal with it. So I don't think callaway can use renaeden as an excuse anymore
When I pointed that out to her though, she ignored it and is continuing to ignore it
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I've only got on Emma's laptop after days of not going online, so my itch to rant is VERY high. :zoinks:
That does it, I'm off now. :laugh:
:runaway:
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IIRC Callaway has said before that she feels it is uncomfortable due to Renaeden's feelings toward GA and etc.
Yeah she's said that a few times, but renaeden herself now calls GA "she" and is trying to deal with it. So I don't think callaway can use renaeden as an excuse anymore
When I pointed that out to her though, she ignored it and is continuing to ignore it
Meh , I'm sure callaway has her reasons anyway , not mine to know really.
Tbh I don't think I would call GA a she after this , if he's going to demand it like this then I'll just avoid gender pronouns (if he stays)
And yes I used he twice there :zoinks:
I've only got on Emma's laptop after days of not going online, so my itch to rant is VERY high. :zoinks:
:lol:
Let it out Schleed the worst thing she'll do is whisper Big Fucking Peters into your ear whilst you sleep anyway :zoinks:
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I understand GA isn't very popular here now, but calling her "he" is also a kick in the face to all trans people really
I know it's not meant that way though. I'd just like to think that even if i wasn't trans myself I would still refer to a transwoman as she, whether I liked her or not.
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I understand GA isn't very popular here now, but calling her "he" is also a kick in the face to all trans people really
It isn't meant as a kick to all trans people.
It's more an antagonising post towards him.
It's like if I ran around telling people off for saying "Faggot" what would you be tempted (and likely I know you Soph :laugh:) to call me?
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Let it out Schleed the worst thing she'll do is whisper Big Fucking Peters into your ear whilst you sleep anyway :zoinks:
We also have a "dodgy eyebrow club" going on at the moment, finding it quite hilarious. :laugh:
But cheers, she won't shut up about big fucking peters now. :aff:
I understand GA isn't very popular here now, but calling her "he" is also a kick in the face to all trans people really
I know it's not meant that way though. I'd just like to think that even if i wasn't trans myself I would still refer to a transwoman as she, whether I liked her or not.
I don't think he has the respect for us to call him she, despite the transistion. I will call a tranny by their transistioned sex if they wanted, but only if they're not a cunt.
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I kno, I know, I'd call you a faggot :laugh:
btw, do you view me as a guy or a girl? (or neighter?)
It's cool whatever you answer btw lol, I'm just curious.
And anyone can answer that if they want
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I don't think he has the respect for us to call him she, despite the transistion. I will call a tranny by their transistioned sex if they wanted, but only if they're not a cunt.
Fair enough.
Again, I don't want people thinking I'm being some kinda asshole forcing my shit down people's throats. Everyone obviously has the right to call people whatever they like
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Personally you look neither male or female. Not exactly andro, just a human.... in a sense. :dunno:
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Yeah I think I get what you mean. I'm definitely not manly anyway :P
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Let it out Schleed the worst thing she'll do is whisper Big Fucking Peters into your ear whilst you sleep anyway :zoinks:
We also have a "dodgy eyebrow club" going on at the moment, finding it quite hilarious. :laugh:
But cheers, she won't shut up about big fucking peters now. :aff:
"Dodgy Eyebrow club" ? do explain. :lol:
And your fault for snoring so loudly :zoinks:
I kno, I know, I'd call you a faggot :laugh:
btw, do you view me as a guy or a girl? (or neighter?)
It's cool whatever you answer btw lol, I'm just curious.
And anyone can answer that if they want
I view you as a girly girl who loves pink frilly tutus and barbies :eyelash:.
But no seriously I view you as a guy , when I first joined I thought you WERE a guy for like a month , then I saw your coming out as trans thread big "oops" moment. :laugh:
(Yes you did what I did to Razorbeard almost :zoinks:)
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I agree that people shouldn't be forced to. I don't think I;ve ever tried to force people here (or elsewhere) to call me "he". I don't think I've even asked
. I hope not anyway
You corrected me when we first met in my intro thread, but I wouldn't say you forced me.. I referred to you as "she" because I knew you of you first from several years of old posts on WP that I read in the Mod Forum.
I have no problem calling someone whatever the hell they want to be called so long as A) I am not called out over it if I make an honest mistake and fuck it up, and B) you don't piss me off and give me cause to use something that has been defined as an obvious weapon.
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I demand you all refer to me as she , and if you don't I will threaten you over the internetz! :autism: :bigcry:
Peaguy and Fionas boobs approve this post BTW. :orly:
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I kno, I know, I'd call you a faggot :laugh:
btw, do you view me as a guy or a girl? (or neighter?)
It's cool whatever you answer btw lol, I'm just curious.
And anyone can answer that if they want
You are just .... Soph
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"Dodgy Eyebrow club" ? do explain. :lol:
And your fault for snoring so loudly :zoinks:
She just mentioned it out of nowhere in the morning as some attempt to insult. I found it hilarious and we both decided to flesh it out. We even did drawings onto the train newspaper, from eyebrows holding candles to an eyebrow version of 9/11.
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You corrected me when we first met in my intro thread, but I wouldn't say you forced me..
Yeah I remember that - it definitely wasn't meant as asking or telling you to. I figure everyone who's a regular on here now knows I'm trans and knows I identify as a guy, so if they call me She then that's because, despite knowing I'm a transguy, they still see me as She. Whereas I assumed you didn't know that. If you'd carried on calling me she then I wouldn't have corrected you again. Was just correcting you then because you (I guessed) didn't know about me being trans
I was always open about being trans on wp btw, but felt like i had to set my profile to Female when I joined (would have left it unanswered if possible), so everyone assumed I was a lesbian unless I talked to them about being trans
That's part of the reason I just let people think I'm any random guy at first now. So they get to know me just as a guy first. (Not that I would lie if asked, or lave it out if it was relevant)
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"Dodgy Eyebrow club" ? do explain. :lol:
And your fault for snoring so loudly :zoinks:
She just mentioned it out of nowhere in the morning as some attempt to insult. I found it hilarious and we both decided to flesh it out. We even did drawings onto the train newspaper, from eyebrows holding candles to an eyebrow version of 9/11.
I'm trying to imagine that :lol:
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Yeah I think I get what you mean. I'm definitely not manly anyway :P
No, but a lot of geeky young guys are not terribly "manly." I just have always thought of you as a guy.
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Yeah I think I get what you mean. I'm definitely not manly anyway :P
No, but a lot of geeky young guys are not terribly "manly." I just have always thought of you as a guy.
Thanks 8)
Yeah I am ok with not being "manly." My personality is fairly androgynous anyway - I mean I like football and military stuff, but I also like cats and drawing
And yes I know that's stereotyping, but those were just random masculine and feminine things I could think of :P
So yeah I don't mind not being really manly, I just wish I wasn't so girly - it would make my life a lot easier lol
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Yeah I think I get what you mean. I'm definitely not manly anyway :P
No, but a lot of geeky young guys are not terribly "manly." I just have always thought of you as a guy.
:
I'm the definition of manly , excuse me whilst I go bounce my pecs. :M :ghey:
:rofl: , Oh I love irony.
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It probably also plays a role that in my mind you are defined as "Soph", which sounds feminine to me. Is it short for Sophocles?
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yeah soph does sound kinda feminine,doesn't it? maybe people need to start calling me Heinrich instead, or something else. Fucktard? Dipshit? shame I didn't register on wp as something less girly lol
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No, I like Soph. Although I hate change, so maybe you shouldn't listen to me :autism:
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Yes, don't listen to her, Heinrich.
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On the second, I don't believe I used emotional manipulation at all. Point out some examples from this thread where I have done so?
This issue is close to me, obviously. And I am engaged in spreading awareness and understanding of the issues, not just for transpeople, but for all diverse sexuality and gender people, and for autism and other disabilities. I'm a bit of an activist in that respect. I believe in knowledge and the reduction of ignorance. Yes I am passionate, and that shows in how I present my arguments. But I have never tried to emotionally manipulate anyone, that would be disingenuous and false conduct and would really undercut the validity of my arguments.
Yet by stating that you'll leave, etc, that's exactly what you are doing, especially when you keep coming back.
That and the whole, how we are so ignorant and insensitive and how she's worried about all of us acting like that in real life. Please, I don't take kindly to been treated as a fool by such pathetic attempts of guilt tripping. ::)
Most of that kind of talk is irrelevant and engineered to emotionally engage the reader to take pity on them. Besides it kind of alienates people when you proclaim how ignorant they are without giving them a chance to explain themselves or willing to engage the argument without resorting to that immediately. To do otherwise is called being judgemental, and is the same behaviour as the bigots employ against whatever they disdain.
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I
Past history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
Rissy, I really hope that you realise that what you said here was insensitive to say the least. You have stressed that you are tired and i do hope that is the reason.
Other than that you have made a lot of sense today. You stormed the place, and i think your entrance was cool. :thumbup:
above statement not so cool. :thumbdn:
"Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her." - you say that so matter of fact, like it's OK to do that to someone.
An expendable commodity. You then equate it to "upsetting a friend" - wtf? now that is an outrageous understatement!
They got married. FFS. Big deal - it is to some! You have just trivialised what should have been the most important and happy
event in her life! I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel.
Also i feel i should point out to you that Renaeden is an active member here. Kayleigh is not. You said yourself about 'getting out what you put in'
- well in the three months i been here Kayleigh has only bothered to post here to have a go at someone. I imagine someone email's her if there is
any threads of this nature. Anyway she appears, she misread everything and just has a tantrum. That is her contribution.
So, going back to 'getting out what you put in' ....do you see?
You appear to trivialise Renaeden and her 'upset' in order to highlight the plight of poor Kayleigh.
Try a different approach.
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IPast history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
Rissy, I really hope that you realise that what you said here was insensitive to say the least. You have stressed that you are tired and i do hope that is the reason.
Other than that you have made a lot of sense today. You stormed the place, and i think your entrance was cool. :thumbup:
above statement not so cool. :thumbdn:
"Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her." - you say that so matter of fact, like it's OK to do that to someone.
An expendable commodity. You then equate it to "upsetting a friend" - wtf? now that is an outrageous understatement!
They got married. FFS. Big deal - it is to some! You have just trivialised what should have been the most important and happy
event in her life! I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel.
Also i feel i should point out to you that Renaeden is an active member here. Kayleigh is not. You said yourself about 'getting out what you put in'
- well in the three months i been here Kayleigh has only bothered to post here to have a go at someone. I imagine someone email's her if there is
any threads of this nature. Anyway she appears, she misread everything and just has a tantrum. That is her contribution.
So, going back to 'getting out what you put in' ....do you see?
You appear to trivialise Renaeden and her 'upset' in order to highlight the plight of poor Kayleigh.
Try a different approach.
+1
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IPast history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
Rissy, I really hope that you realise that what you said here was insensitive to say the least. You have stressed that you are tired and i do hope that is the reason.
Other than that you have made a lot of sense today. You stormed the place, and i think your entrance was cool. :thumbup:
above statement not so cool. :thumbdn:
"Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her." - you say that so matter of fact, like it's OK to do that to someone.
An expendable commodity. You then equate it to "upsetting a friend" - wtf? now that is an outrageous understatement!
They got married. FFS. Big deal - it is to some! You have just trivialised what should have been the most important and happy
event in her life! I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel.
Also i feel i should point out to you that Renaeden is an active member here. Kayleigh is not. You said yourself about 'getting out what you put in'
- well in the three months i been here Kayleigh has only bothered to post here to have a go at someone. I imagine someone email's her if there is
any threads of this nature. Anyway she appears, she misread everything and just has a tantrum. That is her contribution.
So, going back to 'getting out what you put in' ....do you see?
You appear to trivialise Renaeden and her 'upset' in order to highlight the plight of poor Kayleigh.
Try a different approach.
:agreed:
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IPast history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
Rissy, I really hope that you realise that what you said here was insensitive to say the least. You have stressed that you are tired and i do hope that is the reason.
Other than that you have made a lot of sense today. You stormed the place, and i think your entrance was cool. :thumbup:
above statement not so cool. :thumbdn:
"Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her." - you say that so matter of fact, like it's OK to do that to someone.
An expendable commodity. You then equate it to "upsetting a friend" - wtf? now that is an outrageous understatement!
They got married. FFS. Big deal - it is to some! You have just trivialised what should have been the most important and happy
event in her life! I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel.
Also i feel i should point out to you that Renaeden is an active member here. Kayleigh is not. You said yourself about 'getting out what you put in'
- well in the three months i been here Kayleigh has only bothered to post here to have a go at someone. I imagine someone email's her if there is
any threads of this nature. Anyway she appears, she misread everything and just has a tantrum. That is her contribution.
So, going back to 'getting out what you put in' ....do you see?
You appear to trivialise Renaeden and her 'upset' in order to highlight the plight of poor Kayleigh.
Try a different approach.
:plus:
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IPast history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
Rissy, I really hope that you realise that what you said here was insensitive to say the least. You have stressed that you are tired and i do hope that is the reason.
Other than that you have made a lot of sense today. You stormed the place, and i think your entrance was cool. :thumbup:
above statement not so cool. :thumbdn:
"Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her." - you say that so matter of fact, like it's OK to do that to someone.
An expendable commodity. You then equate it to "upsetting a friend" - wtf? now that is an outrageous understatement!
They got married. FFS. Big deal - it is to some! You have just trivialised what should have been the most important and happy
event in her life! I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel.
Also i feel i should point out to you that Renaeden is an active member here. Kayleigh is not. You said yourself about 'getting out what you put in'
- well in the three months i been here Kayleigh has only bothered to post here to have a go at someone. I imagine someone email's her if there is
any threads of this nature. Anyway she appears, she misread everything and just has a tantrum. That is her contribution.
So, going back to 'getting out what you put in' ....do you see?
You appear to trivialise Renaeden and her 'upset' in order to highlight the plight of poor Kayleigh.
Try a different approach.
I doubt they have any approach better than obfuscation, manipulation and distortion, Bodaccea. It's too much to ask for. :zoinks:
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Good post, Bodaccea.
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IPast history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
Rissy, I really hope that you realise that what you said here was insensitive to say the least. You have stressed that you are tired and i do hope that is the reason.
Other than that you have made a lot of sense today. You stormed the place, and i think your entrance was cool. :thumbup:
above statement not so cool. :thumbdn:
"Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her." - you say that so matter of fact, like it's OK to do that to someone.
An expendable commodity. You then equate it to "upsetting a friend" - wtf? now that is an outrageous understatement!
They got married. FFS. Big deal - it is to some! You have just trivialised what should have been the most important and happy
event in her life! I cannot begin to imagine how she must feel.
Also i feel i should point out to you that Renaeden is an active member here. Kayleigh is not. You said yourself about 'getting out what you put in'
- well in the three months i been here Kayleigh has only bothered to post here to have a go at someone. I imagine someone email's her if there is
any threads of this nature. Anyway she appears, she misread everything and just has a tantrum. That is her contribution.
So, going back to 'getting out what you put in' ....do you see?
You appear to trivialise Renaeden and her 'upset' in order to highlight the plight of poor Kayleigh.
Try a different approach.
Thanks for explaining this better than I ever could, Bodaccea.
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>:( Stupid computer... I lost my post.
Past history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.
It's late, so I don't have time to rewrite the post I made (And my hand is fractured, forcing me to one hand type) But I wasn't claiming to totally read Swearengen or anything. I was just presenting my basic analysis and perception. It shouldn't be remarkable enough to worry about. And I think you just have trouble understanding the language and tone I use, I haven't been backing out on anything I said. I've just rephrased it hoping for you to understand my meaning better. I consider it to be trolling when you seek to upset someone with irrelevant comments. The fact you admitted to attacking her gender instead of her behavior is where you showed signs of trolling.
You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect. If you have a problem with using respectful pronouns, it's obvious that you DO care and are showing signs of botty-burp. You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...
Oh... and I guess i'll respond to odean tomorrow <_<
Actually no I didn't. I did say
Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result.
But i don't recall attacking Kayleigh's gender so again...you make the claim...back it.
Two now of course back one should prove the other.
1) I have trolled Kayleigh in this thread
2) I have attacked Kayleigh gender.
No doubt having made the claims you will be able to back it as it is what you have derived your " basic analysis and perception".
So in respect to "You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate." in return Kayleigh will be considerate to people that do not wish to change the way they view, identify or name things, and will seek to treat them with as much respect as you both demend that Kayleigh gets treated? Sounds very fair.
That is what you are saying right?
As to your last bit about what is obvious and a logical follow on. Not at all. If nothing else in this thread has shown this to be false then at least consider that people will behave a number of ways for a number of reasons and whilst we can give educated guesses or "basic analysis and perception" it is likely to be flawed.
Being overly presumptuous about such things is a flawed attack and you have only to look as far as Kayleigh's textual vomit to see that. :)
Poor you, not comfortable with calling her "she" :'(
If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?
And I know I will get shit for this post, but I don't care. I think that's a pathetic stance to take
I think it is a little pathetic trying to equate Callaway with Renaeden.
Now rather than assume that Renaeden with be hurt and hate GA how about assume that Renaeden has a lot of memories and love still for GA which Callaway has and will never have. It would actually be more likely (though not easy) for Renaeden to be more forgiving and whatever.
Yet you seek to impose Renaeden's very moral stance towards other's here as a acceptable standard.
An analogy here is for someone to get beaten every day of their school life without retaliating because for them to do so is "condoning violence" or whatever. Sure it is a great morality but if that doesn't suit everyone and if they decide to defend themselves and fight back, that is OK too. Different morality but neither is worse, both are just different.
It is a perfectly simple and reasonable argument. Dismiss someone else's problems as crap and your own problems can be given the exact same treatment. Don't cry about others having an over-inflated sense of importance when you're just as up-yourself. Turning my argument on Kayleigh hasn't stopped it aiming at you too.
Every aspect of language is a social construct. It's out of your character to suggest that there is any divine reason for anything. And just like humans developed religion, they developed the basic, lacking classifications of everything. It was never black and white, it's just human nature to be lazy and not over complicate things. Life messes up all the time, so its not like its all that rare. When things fuck up so frequently, you might as well make room for it. Some cultures do actually have more than two recognized genders. There's more to life than reproduction and you might as well judge people on their actions and not on their make-up. What are you suggesting that transpeople do? The mind is the essence of a person. The body is just tasty meat.
Sure I don't mind you or others aiming at my "problems". I don't have issue with this. Did you for some reason think this was an Autism Support site or something? You seem to infer that we would have an investment in society treating us better? That we are having continued problems with society and would have people change the way they treat us?
People are people regardless and most people that know won't care and those that care won't know.
I know society will not change to fit in with my Autism I have no emotional payload over this. I make best of what hands I have been played. I will gladly work through every misunderstanding, embarrassment, humiliation, upset, confusion and isolation. That is life. Always has been. I EXPECT people will act like people and I will not expect or whine about the indifference.
Transgenderism is really a small thing in society. In real terms it affects comparatively few. It doesn't cost society that much and it has no HUGE impacts.
Hell, the supposed "Autism epidemic", has barely managed to blip on the society consciousness and they almost to a person think all Autistics are bloody Rainman.
You REALLY think that society will change?
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I see the guests are still lurking. Welcome to the transphobic pit of hell... well actually no, we're not, but this is:
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Transsexual (http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Transsexual)
Now look at this thread and look at that link, and spot the difference on the level of transphobia. :zoinks:
Edit: MOAR links
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Transphobia (http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Transphobia)
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/FTM (http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/FTM)
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/MTF (http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/MTF)
Have fun. :green:
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Did I scare them off so quickly? lol
But seriously, if you think we're bad, have a look at the internet at large. We are nothing compared those who are actually transphobic or in ED's case, doing it for the lulz to intentionally piss people off who are too sensitive.
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GA has cowered away, a usual tactic of his when confronted or called out for his bullshit.
Did I scare them off so quickly? lol
But seriously, if you think we're bad, have a look at the internet at large. We are nothing compared those who are actually transphobic or in ED's case, doing it for the lulz to intentionally piss people off who are too sensitive.
I personally think if they want to live in a naive fantasy world where everyone is free, equal and happy, they really should just kill themselves. The world simply does not fucking work like that, nature does not work like that and the universe does not work like that. There will always be injustice, unimaginably horrible things happening to people/animals, racism etc etc etc. Sure one can try, but IMO they're only rearranging the shit to look more pretty - in reality it's still shit. I suggest that we should just get on with our lives rather than cry about every single thing happening in the world. Tears won't change it.
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GA has cowered away, a usual tactic of his when confronted or called out for his bullshit.
Did I scare them off so quickly? lol
But seriously, if you think we're bad, have a look at the internet at large. We are nothing compared those who are actually transphobic or in ED's case, doing it for the lulz to intentionally piss people off who are too sensitive.
I personally think if they want to live in a naive fantasy world where everyone is free, equal and happy, they really should just kill themselves. The world simply does not fucking work like that, nature does not work like that and the universe does not work like that. There will always be injustice, unimaginably horrible things happening to people/animals, racism etc etc etc. Sure one can try, but IMO they're only rearranging the shit to look more pretty - in reality it's still shit. I suggest that we should just get on with our lives rather than cry about every single thing happening in the world. Tears won't change it.
Exactly, it's a case of unrealistic expectations to have a perfect world like that. I just find it obnoxious that people who supposedly preach for equality are also the ones to adopt bigoted attitudes as well. It's logic fail to expect people to be more fair, if you perpetuate the same attitude in a different disguise. It's actually unavoidable in some cases.
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GA has cowered away, a usual tactic of his when confronted or called out for his bullshit.
Did I scare them off so quickly? lol
But seriously, if you think we're bad, have a look at the internet at large. We are nothing compared those who are actually transphobic or in ED's case, doing it for the lulz to intentionally piss people off who are too sensitive.
I personally think if they want to live in a naive fantasy world where everyone is free, equal and happy, they really should just kill themselves. The world simply does not fucking work like that, nature does not work like that and the universe does not work like that. There will always be injustice, unimaginably horrible things happening to people/animals, racism etc etc etc. Sure one can try, but IMO they're only rearranging the shit to look more pretty - in reality it's still shit. I suggest that we should just get on with our lives rather than cry about every single thing happening in the world. Tears won't change it.
Agreed!! :plus:
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I did say I was going to sleep in my last post, so obviously a day is fair enough time to wait before suggesting I left. For your information, I don't think that people earn respect with disrespectful behavior. I've already said that. But if you're disrespectful, you can't really complain someone else is, maybe you should be the one to grow up first. It's not even about Kayleigh, think about transpeople in general, if you're publically saying things that would offend transpeople, that is obviously botty-burp, regardless of whether you care. You know the original link? That had a lot of comments that sounded racist about the attackers. I totally call them out on racism there and I'm caucasian. The very issue here is botty-burp and plenty of the louder people here ARE cissexist. I'm just saying that being cissexist is an act of discrimination. I'm not arguing that people are transphobic so going on about that is pointless. I'm only calling botty-burp. And some of you accept that you're cissexist, which is your choice to make.
odeon:You talk about me judging people, but what if i went around making sexist, racist and pansexist comment, I'm sure you'd judge me. I'm here for the argument. Judging you is something I can do without typing a single key. I'm sure there's some argument we agree on and I could respect you for that, but I don't respect your view on transsexualism and I'm arguing against your comments.
My comment about Kayleigh marrying her was actually a bitch comment to Kayleigh. She shouldn't of gotten close to her in that way. Transitioning only breaks illusions about how a person really is, and since you can choose to marry and get in a relationship, it's Kayleigh's fault that renaeden got hurt. Happy memories can lead to sad memories and renaeden was better off with someone else. I was just telling Callaway to get over the past. I'm just a random IRL friend, I didn't figure it was significant enough to answer.
The argument's about fixing the mind seem quite ridiculous and in that case, there would be the technology to turn everyone into puppets. Transsexualism is about identity, I mean, preventative measures to stop people being born like that might work, but to reprogram the mind turns you into a different person and what kind of fanatic isn't going to start making slaves out of it. It's not a bit of brain you can cut out, you'd have to destroy and rebuild the brain, or atleast some of it.
The mind totally trumps the body, and while there are still people wired wrong, you should consider the mind over the body. I personally have no regard for human vegetables, which probably makes me a bitch, but a living being is their mind and take that away, they become food.
Arguing about word definitions is stupid too. Dictionaries are inconsistent with each other and all that really matters is common use. You seem to forget that language is constantly developing and changes in trends. You act like your view is pure science and physical perspective, but since you think in such black and white terms, you are a pathetic scientist. Or maybe you just have a god complex and want make everything conform to the way you want everything to be. A transwomen is programmed to be a woman and socially there's no reason to consider them to be a man.
I think you are a twat and until you prove you aren't I'm clearly winning this argument.
I can take the same stance. But that argues nothing, it just says that you consider yourself superior in your own head. Who was the one talking about fantasies? 8)
And while bigots do hang out at ED, anyone intelligent knows it's just a trolling reference for uncreative trolls.
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And while bigots do hang out at ED, anyone intelligent knows it's just a trolling reference for uncreative trolls.
So you acknowledge that some circumstances are not serious then but rather trolling aka piss taking? Well then, it's the same for a lot of things said here and yet you're very quick to paint a generalized brush about this community.
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I know that a lot of this is just making fun, or just pissing Kayleigh off 'cause you hate her. But people like odeon are actually expressing cissexist views and I'm just debating his reasons.
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I know that a lot of this is just making fun, or just pissing Kayleigh off 'cause you hate her. But people like odeon are actually expressing cissexist views and I'm just debating his reasons.
Okay fair enough, at least you understand that. That's all I wanted to know. :)
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TL;DR for the most part.
Their gender, race etc. do not come into the equation at all, I see it as pretty stupid to judge someone by such things. I prefer to judge by one's personality, only using their race, gender etc. as tools to annoy them for having such a rotten personality to begin with. Call me all the terms you want, be it racist, homophobe, botty-burp etc - I couldn't honestly give a fuck. I'm not going to cry in the morning because someone tries to stick their head up their arse like some shitty imitation of ouroboros over what I said.
I will never show respect towards GA unless the cunt lightens up and doesn't cry about everything. I don't care about his transistion and he shouldn't expect me to, more important things than one's sex/gender.
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I was always open about being trans on wp btw, but felt like i had to set my profile to Female when I joined (would have left it unanswered if possible), so everyone assumed I was a lesbian unless I talked to them about being trans
Yeah that is where I first got to know you and so I thought you were a girl. And still did until not long ago. It is hard to suddenly change perception of a person from one gender to another because gender is a big part of a person's identity.
Even harder to do this (change perception) in rl but I am getting there. I love GA too much to ignore her wishes. We are not getting back together or anything (she has found someone else) but I still wish for her to be happy in everything she does. It is all I can do. I don't want our break-up to turn us into enemies, I don't want that kind of stress in my life.
Thanks for the support, to those that gave it. :)
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I always find TL:DR to be either a troll reply or simply careless ignorance. Either way, there is no argument from someone who replies with it.
But obviously judging someone by their personality is the best way to treat people, and obviously if you want to hurt someone, you pick at their weaknesses. But it's simply botty-burp, and Binty started this thread because people were quick to call people on racism and such, but not on botty-burp. The general reply is 'I don't give a shit' but it is a fact that's been confirmed by this thread.
And Schleed, the botty-burp I'm complaining about is the type you give to someone you don't hate.
Oh and Swearengen, why are you still crying for me to state the obvious.
"Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result."
That is called a troll comment. You're not debating with her. You're just provoking her. It's also a passive aggressive attack.
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Is it just me or is anyone else getting bored of reading the word "botty-burp" every now and then?
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I was always open about being trans on wp btw, but felt like i had to set my profile to Female when I joined (would have left it unanswered if possible), so everyone assumed I was a lesbian unless I talked to them about being trans
Yeah that is where I first got to know you and so I thought you were a girl. And still did until not long ago. It is hard to suddenly change perception of a person from one gender to another because gender is a big part of a person's identity.
Even harder to do this (change perception) in rl but I am getting there. I love GA too much to ignore her wishes. We are not getting back together or anything (she has found someone else) but I still wish for her to be happy in everything she does. It is all I can do. I don't want our break-up to turn us into enemies, I don't want that kind of stress in my life.
Thanks for the support, to those that gave it. :)
:hugs:
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Is it just me or is anyone else getting bored of reading the word "botty-burp" every now and then?
Same with calling anything that you don't agree with as a "troll comment".
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The topic is about botty-burp... Don't participate in such a discussion if you don't want to hear the word. Getting annoyed by it is one thing, but needlessly subjecting yourself to it is a lack of common sense. It's not like I'm complaining about it in other threads.
I actually agree with Swearengen's comment. But it was irrelevant as an argument and it was trolling, so I don't see your point, Schleed
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Why are you still ignoring what I said, Callaway?
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I always find TL:DR to be either a troll reply or simply careless ignorance. Either way, there is no argument from someone who replies with it.
But obviously judging someone by their personality is the best way to treat people, and obviously if you want to hurt someone, you pick at their weaknesses. But it's simply botty-burp, and Binty started this thread because people were quick to call people on racism and such, but not on botty-burp. The general reply is 'I don't give a shit' but it is a fact that's been confirmed by this thread.
And Schleed, the botty-burp I'm complaining about is the type you give to someone you don't hate.
Oh and Swearengen, why are you still crying for me to state the obvious.
"Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result."
That is called a troll comment. You're not debating with her. You're just provoking her. It's also a passive aggressive attack.
Not at all Rissy.
"botty-burp" is the belief and treatment of transgender and/or transsexual people as inferior to cissexual (non-trans) people." You are touting this a lot and at the membership or members of and I am afraid it is on you to show that the people you are accusing actively thinking transgenderl people as inferior to cissexual. Yes it is not enough to keep saying the word. Nor is it enough to say "They are not as passionate as I", nor is it enough to say "They don't identify with transpeople in the way that I do". Show a derived mentality that underpins the concept that your accused DO see transpeople as inferior. Make a case. Back yourself. Because you are fast becoming both uninteresting and irrelevant.
I am saying that most of us (and this includes me, do not give a shit what gender someone is any more than we do their race, nationality or skin colour) you are saying we do....show it.
You made a claim
Odean and Al Swearengen are the ones that are being loudly cissexist.
you need to back it properly for it to be seen with any credibility.
As for what is or isn't a "troll comment"
Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.
Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?
I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.
This was neither a passive aggressive attack (no I am not that subtle. Ask anyone...hell ask Kayleigh :lol: - I know, I know you did a bit of basic analysis :autism: ) nor was it a troll comment.
Kayleigh in the context of the above was questioning why anyone would want to attack their gender and I gave a very good reason why. It was in context of what was asked directly it was not left field.
I did not say there that I was attacking Kayleigh's gender in this thread and don't believe I have nor have I seen anyone else do so. Quite frankly find little merit in much of what Kayleigh says. But given the options of railing against Kaleigh's woeful personality or attacking Kayleigh's gender I would say the gender issues seem to be the ones more ready to get a response and would happily encourage this were I asked. Why, to have Kayleigh melt down and ran away.....again.
So again straight back at you.
Show botty-burp and show the trolling. Ought not be that hard if it is there to be seen and if it is worth raising in the first case,
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I think the comments we are talking about are all aimed at Kayleigh. Calling her a 'he' is what really pushes the button for her. I don't think it is the same as
actually thinking she is inferior. It is just a target she wears. Respect is a two way street. Rightly or wrongly if someone is disrespectful to you it is human
nature to give it back. In Kayleigh's case it is just too easy to push that button.
I really don't think anyone has the view that a trans person is inferior. I think the concept (the getting your head around it) is not easy for someone like
myself who have no issues like that personally. I have always felt like i am in the correct gender. Thinking about switching is something i can't really
contemplate for long, I think those are the only real issues here. Some people find it hard to relate to.
If someone was thinking that person was inferior, surely instead of he, she they would use 'it' Humans are good at dehumanizing things that they
can't understand. It makes it easier to 'hate'
I don't think that is going on here. I think it has just become a quick way to be rude to Kayleigh. I am not saying that is right, just that i don't
think it is what the title of the thread is rteally about
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It is OK though because Rissy will show us all, that there is indeed a case for there being a believe existing in the minds of the members here that transgender people are inferior to non-transgendered people.
(You are going to do that right, Rissy? I mean you have used the term enough and applied it to people here?)
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I think the comments we are talking about are all aimed at Kayleigh. Calling her a 'he' is what really pushes the button for her. I don't think it is the same as
actually thinking she is inferior. It is just a target she wears. Respect is a two way street. Rightly or wrongly if someone is disrespectful to you it is human
nature to give it back. In Kayleigh's case it is just too easy to push that button.
I really don't think anyone has the view that a trans person is inferior. I think the concept (the getting your head around it) is not easy for someone like
myself who have no issues like that personally. I have always felt like i am in the correct gender. Thinking about switching is something i can't really
contemplate for long, I think those are the only real issues here. Some people find it hard to relate to.
If someone was thinking that person was inferior, surely instead of he, she they would use 'it' Humans are good at dehumanizing things that they
can't understand. It makes it easier to 'hate'
I don't think that is going on here. I think it has just become a quick way to be rude to Kayleigh. I am not saying that is right, just that i don't
think it is what the title of the thread is rteally about
Think you are spot on here. Just like Pentagram get's his teeth in his face, Not something he chose to have. And not something he has the money for to fix.
At hominem attacks like that do happen here. And, that makes that this thread now isn't the right thread to discuss botty-burp or things like that.
Oh, I'm going to forget the word botty-burp as soon as possible btw. All those ism's only blur what it is about for me. Terminologies can do that for me.
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Is it just me or is anyone else getting bored of reading the word "botty-burp" every now and then?
botty-burp botty-burp botty-burp botty-burp
(http://fapit.net/imgs/864/tits.jpg)\
botty-burp botty-burp botty-burp botty-burp
Boring now :zoinks:
This thread is boring and redundant
GA if your going to leave like you said do or as they say there harden the fuck up people don't have an issue with you being trans or
what ever PC term you want to use but the endless whine about it. You seem to be a good person and I like you when your not whiny.
This is too much debating pronoun use, FUCK!!! I personally get the wrong all the time even with my family let alone people online I can't even see.
So get a hold of it everyone is not out to get you
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I think the comments we are talking about are all aimed at Kayleigh. Calling her a 'he' is what really pushes the button for her. I don't think it is the same as
actually thinking she is inferior. It is just a target she wears. Respect is a two way street. Rightly or wrongly if someone is disrespectful to you it is human
nature to give it back. In Kayleigh's case it is just too easy to push that button.
I really don't think anyone has the view that a trans person is inferior. I think the concept (the getting your head around it) is not easy for someone like
myself who have no issues like that personally. I have always felt like i am in the correct gender. Thinking about switching is something i can't really
contemplate for long, I think those are the only real issues here. Some people find it hard to relate to.
If someone was thinking that person was inferior, surely instead of he, she they would use 'it' Humans are good at dehumanizing things that they
can't understand. It makes it easier to 'hate'
I don't think that is going on here. I think it has just become a quick way to be rude to Kayleigh. I am not saying that is right, just that i don't
think it is what the title of the thread is rteally about
Think you are spot on here. Just like Pentagram get's his teeth in his face, Not something he chose to have. And not something he has the money for to fix.
At hominem attacks like that do happen here. And, that makes that this thread now isn't the right thread to discuss botty-burp or things like that.
Oh, I'm going to forget the word botty-burp as soon as possible btw. All those ism's only blur what it is about for me. Terminologies can do that for me.
Totally agree Hyke. Having to put these things in little pigeon holes makes my brain hurt. Even the word 'trans' is something i try not to use.
I think of Soph as a boy, and then suddenly he will say "but i am trans" - it is not always helpful to categorize!
That word, the one you want to forget, will be forever known by me as The 'c' word.
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Is it just me or is anyone else getting bored of reading the word "botty-burp" every now and then?
Well, what about "miss coxies", is that a better pair of words to look at? :eyelash:
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hmmm yes that's better
or if you get the letters, rearrange em, then add a couple and take a few away
you get BOLLOCKS :zoinks:
Clever huh
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hmmm yes that's better
or if you get the letters, rearrange em, then add a couple and take a few away
you get BOLLOCKS :zoinks:
Clever huh
So no slob lock or LLC books then? :(
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How about something simple like anti-trans or something? Why did they come up with such a hard word to pronounce and look at in a pleased manner?
Simplicity must be too much to ask for these days.
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How about something simple like anti-trans or something? Why did they come up with such a hard word to pronounce and look at in a pleased manner?
Simplicity must be too much to ask for these days.
The harder a word is to pronounce and look at the more superior the people who use it feel
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How about something simple like anti-trans or something? Why did they come up with such a hard word to pronounce and look at in a pleased manner?
Simplicity must be too much to ask for these days.
The harder a word is to pronounce and look at the more superior the people who use it feel
:agreed:
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Totally agree Hyke. Having to put these things in little pigeon holes makes my brain hurt. Even the word 'trans' is something i try not to use.
I think of Soph as a boy, and then suddenly he will say "but i am trans" - it is not always helpful to categorize!
I say trans a lot though because I AM trans. I am a boy, but I am also trans. I mean I identify as just a guy, not a trans guy, but that doesn't change the fact that I AM a trans guy, and that comes up a lot in discussions, whther it's about relationships or medical issues or whatever. If my being trans isn't relevant then I don't think I even mention it unless I'm makign some kind of joke
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I mean I don't think I would ever say "but I am trans" in response to someone calling me a guy, because I see myself as a guy anyway
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I mean I don't think I would ever say "but I am trans" in response to someone calling me a guy, because I see myself as a guy anyway
I can't remember where, but i think one was when eclair was asking for willy pics - i think you said it then. Obviously it weren't just
those words, there was a proper sentence of some kind.
I just think of you as a bloke :dunno: I dont think trans is a nice word somehow
i am not talking of definitions - just the actual sound of the word.
If i was 'trans' i would complain about that word
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:yawn:
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:yawn:
Yes this thread need more tits everything is better with tits... and bacon :zoinks:
(http://fapit.net/imgs/1264/bacon_tits_02.jpg)
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:yawn:
Yes this thread need more tits everything is better with tits... and bacon :zoinks:
(http://fapit.net/imgs/1264/bacon_tits_02.jpg)
My network blocked that image. Was it:
(http://www.foundshit.com/images/bacon-bra-01.jpg)
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It's not even revealing just a bacon bikini top. Oh well work computers are like that. All I can say is MMMMMmmmm bacon :green:
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:yawn:
Yes this thread need more tits everything is better with tits... and bacon :zoinks:
(http://fapit.net/imgs/1264/bacon_tits_02.jpg)
Boobs and bacon. I like both. I have no idea what significance if any this has but I :plus:
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It's just to liven up the thread like salt on a hard boiled egg :laugh:
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It's just to liven up the thread like salt on a hard boiled egg :laugh:
I like hard boiled eggs too
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The topic is about botty-burp... Don't participate in such a discussion if you don't want to hear the word. Getting annoyed by it is one thing, but needlessly subjecting yourself to it is a lack of common sense. It's not like I'm complaining about it in other threads.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
parts, you're a legend.
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It's just to liven up the thread like salt on a hard boiled egg :laugh:
I like hard boiled eggs too
Then it's all good see didn't that make this thread more interesting. We even learned something about each other don't you feel closer now :ghugs:
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The topic is about botty-burp... Don't participate in such a discussion if you don't want to hear the word. Getting annoyed by it is one thing, but needlessly subjecting yourself to it is a lack of common sense. It's not like I'm complaining about it in other threads.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
parts, you're a legend.
:asthing:
I hate pretentious words and feel most of the time people use them in order to feel superior.
As to the original topic :deadhorse: I think nothing more can be said to change anyone's mind.
Mind you I have my dead horses I like to beat but this is just silly
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I like arguing to tell the truth.
I know none of you suspected this.
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Well I never heard of that word cissexism until she first mentioned it. I thought it was just made up bullshit like how new Politically Correct terms are invented when old ones become worn and tainted. But then I thought it sounded like a new Cisco router name too. Cisco Exism lol.
Edit: Ha, fuck you word filter, I know hax. :zoinks:
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I like arguing to tell the truth.
I know none of you suspected this.
:orly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM
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Lol~ Word-filter it all you want, but that's just going to make botty-burp your new favourite word >:D
If you want to be immature about it I can necro every available thread with discussion of botty-burp, but I can take a joke.
More advanced trolling is relevant to the topic, but in a way making fun of or provoking the subject. And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling. Passive aggressiveness isn't necessarily subtle anyway, it's just about the attitude and method. Your response right there is perfect troll reasoning. I know because I can be a troll myself. It seems to me that your arguments consist of acting dumb and demanding evidence which you then reject. Are you just trying to troll me until I leave or are you actually going/trying to make a point against me?
You complain about all the links Kayleigh post around so why would you want me to post them? I'm not even complaining about most of the membership I'm mostly trying to debate with odeon. You don't do anything but pick at the wording I use. To avoid botty-burp, you have to treat a transwoman like a ciswoman and a transman like a cisman. The obvious infraction is refusing to use the right pronouns. Anyone here who does that is cissexist. It doesn't make a single difference what your opinion on transsexualism is, it's still botty-burp.
Now I'm not here to tell you what to do with your life, or what to believe. But I am calling people on their botty-burp and it's up to them to live with it or not. Other than that, I'm happy to debate with people over their justification for botty-burp.
bodaccea: While transitioning is a choice, transsexualism is just something you're born with, like autism. Since you were born with proper gender identity, of course you don't understand the feeling of changing your sex. If you want to ponder how if feels, just imagine all your everyday tasks as if everyone viewed you as a guy and responded as such. Getting past perversion at your own new genitals and stuff guys are allowed to do, you can't really express yourself in the same way and I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right.
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:yawn:
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rissy you seem to be a
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/11/9/129023086802465617.jpg)
Debate all you want it's boring as fuck
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Why are you still ignoring what I said, Callaway?
What, that I should call GA a "she" because renaeden does now?
GA's still her husband and I still think he's a selfish ass for doing what he did to her, but I can understand why she would forgive him for that and still love him regardless.
I have known him for a very long time as a man, so in my brain, he's set as a man.
If someone I loved (like my daughter, for example) told me that they felt trapped in a body of the wrong gender, then I would love them and do everything I could to help them, including making a conscious concerted effort to call them the gender-based pronoun of their choice, even though in my brain they would still be set as the gender that I have known them as for their whole lives, at least for a very long time, if not forever.
GA seems to show up here these days only if some trans issue pops up so he can condescendingly lecture the rest of us how we should think and act. Plus, he has asked for his account to be deleted in a few days, so what difference will it make to him in the long run which gender-based pronoun someone on the other side of the world used to refer to him for his last few days? Is this tiny difference worth me making a conscious concerted effort for his few remaining days here? How much respect has he given the rest of us?
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I mean I don't think I would ever say "but I am trans" in response to someone calling me a guy, because I see myself as a guy anyway
I can't remember where, but i think one was when eclair was asking for willy pics - i think you said it then. Obviously it weren't just
those words, there was a proper sentence of some kind.
I just think of you as a bloke :dunno: I dont think trans is a nice word somehow
i am not talking of definitions - just the actual sound of the word.
If i was 'trans' i would complain about that word
But that was because it was relevant. It doesn't change the fct that I'm a guy. It's not like "trans" is instead of being any other guy. I was saying that if I wasn't trans then I would post pics.
And parts, if you're bored of this thread, stay out of it. I find a lot of conversations on here boring, so I just don't participate - not hard :dunno:
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I mean I don't think I would ever say "but I am trans" in response to someone calling me a guy, because I see myself as a guy anyway
I can't remember where, but i think one was when eclair was asking for willy pics - i think you said it then. Obviously it weren't just
those words, there was a proper sentence of some kind.
I just think of you as a bloke :dunno: I dont think trans is a nice word somehow
i am not talking of definitions - just the actual sound of the word.
If i was 'trans' i would complain about that word
But that was because it was relevant. It doesn't change the fct that I'm a guy. It's not like "trans" is instead of being any other guy. I was saying that if I wasn't trans then I would post pics.
And parts, if you're bored of this thread, stay out of it. I find a lot of conversations on here boring, so I just don't participate - not hard :dunno:
But I am in an annoying mood and want to post but all the action is here. You must admit I am sure you like the thread better with tits in it :zoinks:
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Why are you still ignoring what I said, Callaway?
What, that I should call GA a "she" because renaeden does now?
GA's still her husband and I still think he's a selfish ass for doing what he did to her, but I can understand why she would forgive him for that and still love him regardless.
I have known him for a very long time as a man, so in my brain, he's set as a man.
If someone I loved (like my daughter, for example) told me that they felt trapped in a body of the wrong gender, then I would love them and do everything I could to help them, including making a conscious concerted effort to call them the gender-based pronoun of their choice, even though in my brain they would still be set as the gender that I have known them as for their whole lives, at least for a very long time, if not forever.
GA seems to show up here these days only if some trans issue pops up so he can condescendingly lecture the rest of us how we should think and act. Plus, he has asked for his account to be deleted in a few days, so what difference will it make to him in the long run which gender-based pronoun someone on the other side of the world used to refer to him for his last few days? Is this tiny difference worth me making a conscious concerted effort for his few remaining days here? How much respect has he given the rest of us?
My main point was that you're using it as an excuse. At least just admit you don't wanna call GA "she" simply because of YOU. Not because of renaeden.
And what was it that was selfish about what she did to her?
Also it's not just about GA. Refusing to call her "she" is insulting to all transwomen. And yes I know I can't speak for other people, and they won't all be personally offended by it, but it is still a blanket insult which applies to all, just like one related to autism isn't just about the one person it's aimed at: it's at ALL autistic people, even if they won't all individually be offended by it.
If it's about respect, then I can point out that you've been referring to her as "he" long before she started "lecturing" you on it. Again, excuses
It's not hard just to call her "she." Especially in posts where you're actually talking ABOUT pronouns
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oh and for the record, I am NOT in any way trying to play down what's happened to renaeden here. I think anyone who knows how much my family concerns me in all this will know that - the effect on family of trans people is not something I take lightly at all
I just don't see how GA is being any more selfish than should be expected of anyone in her position
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oh and for the record, I am NOT in any way trying to play down what's happened to renaeden here. I think anyone who knows how much my family concerns me in all this will know that - the effect on family of trans people is not something I take lightly at all
I just don't see how GA is being any more selfish than should be expected of anyone in her position
If what Rissy said is true i think she is selfish. That being that she 'led her on' Of course that is selfish.
I have led people on myself in my youth - but never married any of them.
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oh and for the record, I am NOT in any way trying to play down what's happened to renaeden here. I think anyone who knows how much my family concerns me in all this will know that - the effect on family of trans people is not something I take lightly at all
I just don't see how GA is being any more selfish than should be expected of anyone in her position
Let me think.
Did you tell the most awesome woman you will ever meet in your entire life that your "trans stuff" was entirely in your past (when it wasn't) to entice her to marry you?
I didn't think that you would do something that selfish.
Are you completely preoccupied with your own feelings to the exclusion of the feelings of the rest of your family?
I don't think that you are. Quite the opposite in fact, correct?
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GA's still her husband
OK - I have finally put the last required piece together to understand some of the previous comments. :asthing:
Oh, and :yawn:
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GA's still her husband
OK - I have finally put the last required piece together to understand some of the previous comments. :asthing:
Oh, and :yawn:
:P
If you're so sleepy, you could take a nap and someone could wake you up when this is over.
:dream:
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GA's still her husband
OK - I have finally put the last required piece together to understand some of the previous comments. :asthing:
Oh, and :yawn:
:P
If you're so sleepy, you could take a nap and someone could wake you up when this is over.
:dream:
It seems like it will never be over kinda like
ARE WE THERE YET
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GA is totally ignoring the feelings of her family? I didn't think that was the case. Why do you think that?
And she didn't "lead her on"
When I was 15/16, if you had asked me if I was trans, I would have said No. And I wouldn't have been lying. It's the same as gay people who are in denial about their sexuality. If GA KNEW her "trans stuff" wan't over and that she wanted to have a sex change at some point, then yes that would have been wrong. But I'm oretty sure she didn't marry renaeden knowing this was going to happen, or wanting it to happen.
She spent the majority of her life trying to be a man FOR other people (and I'm pretty sure that included renaeden)
Do you have any idea how hard that is? Be thankful you don't
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GA is totally ignoring the feelings of her family? I didn't think that was the case. Why do you think that?
And she didn't "lead her on"
When I was 15/16, if you had asked me if I was trans, I would have said No. And I wouldn't have been lying. It's the same as gay people who are in denial about their sexuality. If GA KNEW her "trans stuff" wan't over and that she wanted to have a sex change at some point, then yes that would have been wrong. But I'm oretty sure she didn't marry renaeden knowing this was going to happen, or wanting it to happen.
She spent the majority of her life trying to be a man FOR other people (and I'm pretty sure that included renaeden)
Do you have any idea how hard that is? Be thankful you don't
Well believe it or not something relevant to add and not just tits :laugh: What soph is saying is very true I have experience with it in my own family people change,
things happen, people change. Life can be unpredictable and you must take it as it comes. I don't feel he is being selfish, for him to deny how he feels and living
a lie would have been worse all around for both of them. I feel for Ren but things happen
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Exactly
It's not like GA married renaeden knowing this would happen.
And there are plenty of other reasons people split up when they never would have expected it.
What would the alternative be, GA living the rest of her life as a man, in misery and unable to actually have a genuine life? I don't think renaeden would want that, however much this has hurt her
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I still think I'd much rather do it this way than risk messing with my brain (I mean my brain is obviously fucked already, I don't want it even worse :autism: )
And yeah, I take your point bout the physical sex being determined earlier. I wasn';teven thinkign of chromosomes at the time as a lot of people don't have chromosomes that match their physical sex. And I mean when you're talking about people this applies to, not the entire population
But yeah if you're XX or XY is obviously determined much earlier
btw (for anyone), when do you guys think the wiring of the brain went wrong then? At some point in the womb?
My guess would be reasonably early but I am no expert. Where is Sophist when we need her?
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I agree that people shouldn't be forced to. I don't think I;ve ever tried to force people here (or elsewhere) to call me "he". I don't think I've even asked
. I hope not anyway
No, AFAIK, never.
Doesn't stop me from getting confused at times. Like others have pointed out, the name "Soph" often causes me to subconsciously doubt the "he" I was about to write, but (again as others have pointed out) you don't come off as a "she" here, either. Confusion ensues before I even know why. :laugh:
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I understand GA isn't very popular here now, but calling her "he" is also a kick in the face to all trans people really
I know it's not meant that way though. I'd just like to think that even if i wasn't trans myself I would still refer to a transwoman as she, whether I liked her or not.
It's not possible for you to know.
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parts:
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130146751228.gif)
If what Rissy said is true i think she is selfish. That being that she 'led her on' Of course that is selfish.
I have led people on myself in my youth - but never married any of them.
I don't quite meant that. I just mean that she shouldn't of married her because she is trans. I'm pretty sure it was a mutual enough relationship, but of course transitioning is going to hurt people. Putting on a facade for others and then finally shattering what people thought about you is obviously hard on others. It's like finding out that you were lied to by your spouse. If they meant to be together, Kayleigh should of started transitioning first.
Kayleigh is maybe a drama queen about how people treat her and not well-liked here. But she's not especially obnoxious in real life. You're welcome to dislike the people you dislike, but she's not as terrible to renaeden as you make out. About the only thing she did wrong is start transitioning after they were married.
And now back to being a one trick pony
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130151731641.gif)
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I understand GA isn't very popular here now, but calling her "he" is also a kick in the face to all trans people really
I know it's not meant that way though. I'd just like to think that even if i wasn't trans myself I would still refer to a transwoman as she, whether I liked her or not.
It's not possible for you to know.
I dunno about that. Like I said before, if I'd been asked at 15/16 whether I was trans or not I'd have said no, and genuinely believed that, even though I was. Yet I wasnt homophobia or transphobic, so I think I can have a pretty good idea of how I;d be. Also when I'm on my own or just walking down the street or whatever, I don;t even think of myself as trans unless it becomes apparaent by some problem or by getting harrassed by other peoeple - so if I think of a transwoman, I don't even think of myself as being in the same position until I stop and think about it for a second.I just take people as whatever the gender they identify as, and I think that kinda view developed before I realised I was trans myself.
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parts:
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130146751228.gif)
If what Rissy said is true i think she is selfish. That being that she 'led her on' Of course that is selfish.
I have led people on myself in my youth - but never married any of them.
I don't quite meant that. I just mean that she shouldn't of married her because she is trans. I'm pretty sure it was a mutual enough relationship, but of course transitioning is going to hurt people. Putting on a facade for others and then finally shattering what people thought about you is obviously hard on others. It's like finding out that you were lied to by your spouse. If they meant to be together, Kayleigh should of started transitioning first.
Kayleigh is maybe a drama queen about how people treat her and not well-liked here. But she's not especially obnoxious in real life. You're welcome to dislike the people you dislike, but she's not as terrible to renaeden as you make out. About the only thing she did wrong is start transitioning after they were married.
And now back to being a one trick pony
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130151731641.gif)
Best post yet :lol:
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odeon:You talk about me judging people, but what if i went around making sexist, racist and pansexist comment, I'm sure you'd judge me. I'm here for the argument. Judging you is something I can do without typing a single key. I'm sure there's some argument we agree on and I could respect you for that, but I don't respect your view on transsexualism and I'm arguing against your comments.
You are still not arguing, you are only judging.
The argument's about fixing the mind seem quite ridiculous and in that case, there would be the technology to turn everyone into puppets.
Yes, and the technology used for the sex change operations could be used to turn you into donkeys. But my argument wasn't about puppets. What is yours about?
Transsexualism is about identity, I mean, preventative measures to stop people being born like that might work, but to reprogram the mind turns you into a different person and what kind of fanatic isn't going to start making slaves out of it. It's not a bit of brain you can cut out, you'd have to destroy and rebuild the brain, or atleast some of it.
The mind totally trumps the body, and while there are still people wired wrong, you should consider the mind over the body. I personally have no regard for human vegetables, which probably makes me a bitch, but a living being is their mind and take that away, they become food.
You are assuming that it must be a large operation when there is little evidence of. consider the *significant* changes in personality by adding serotonin to the brain. Screaming "puppets" and "vegetables" is scare tactics, but probably because you are afraid it actually might be a trivial procedure, aren't you?
Arguing about word definitions is stupid too. Dictionaries are inconsistent with each other and all that really matters is common use. You seem to forget that language is constantly developing and changes in trends. You act like your view is pure science and physical perspective, but since you think in such black and white terms, you are a pathetic scientist. Or maybe you just have a god complex and want make everything conform to the way you want everything to be. A transwomen is programmed to be a woman and socially there's no reason to consider them to be a man.
There is every reason because when you are confused about a definition as basic as this one, you will inevitably be confused about any matter even slightly more advanced. Your "argument" is very much like a religious person's argument against science and scientists: "their religion is science", etc. Like them, you miss the point of having a well-defined vocabulary, especially when the definitions are as clear-cut as these.
I think you are a twat and until you prove you aren't I'm clearly winning this argument.
I can take the same stance. But that argues nothing, it just says that you consider yourself superior in your own head. Who was the one talking about fantasies? 8)
You already did, remember? I guess the reason why you quoted me out of context is that you are hoping nobody would remember why I made that comment.
Basically you are still judging.
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I know that a lot of this is just making fun, or just pissing Kayleigh off 'cause you hate her. But people like odeon are actually expressing cissexist views and I'm just debating his reasons.
You are judging, dear. I'm still waiting for an actual argument.
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Lol~ Word-filter it all you want, but that's just going to make botty-burp your new favourite word >:D
If you want to be immature about it I can necro every available thread with discussion of botty-burp, but I can take a joke.
More advanced trolling is relevant to the topic, but in a way making fun of or provoking the subject. And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling. Passive aggressiveness isn't necessarily subtle anyway, it's just about the attitude and method. Your response right there is perfect troll reasoning. I know because I can be a troll myself. It seems to me that your arguments consist of acting dumb and demanding evidence which you then reject. Are you just trying to troll me until I leave or are you actually going/trying to make a point against me?
You complain about all the links Kayleigh post around so why would you want me to post them? I'm not even complaining about most of the membership I'm mostly trying to debate with odeon. You don't do anything but pick at the wording I use. To avoid botty-burp, you have to treat a transwoman like a ciswoman and a transman like a cisman. The obvious infraction is refusing to use the right pronouns. Anyone here who does that is cissexist. It doesn't make a single difference what your opinion on transsexualism is, it's still botty-burp.
Now I'm not here to tell you what to do with your life, or what to believe. But I am calling people on their botty-burp and it's up to them to live with it or not. Other than that, I'm happy to debate with people over their justification for botty-burp.
bodaccea: While transitioning is a choice, transsexualism is just something you're born with, like autism. Since you were born with proper gender identity, of course you don't understand the feeling of changing your sex. If you want to ponder how if feels, just imagine all your everyday tasks as if everyone viewed you as a guy and responded as such. Getting past perversion at your own new genitals and stuff guys are allowed to do, you can't really express yourself in the same way and I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right.
TL;DR
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oh and for the record, I am NOT in any way trying to play down what's happened to renaeden here. I think anyone who knows how much my family concerns me in all this will know that - the effect on family of trans people is not something I take lightly at all
I just don't see how GA is being any more selfish than should be expected of anyone in her position
He is being a self-important cunt. Like Callaway I knew him as a man long before I was made aware of him being trans. GA remained a he because that is I learned to know him at WP, here and elsewhere. Then came his behaviour in this thread and now I wouldn't dream of labelling him as anything else than a he.
He wants respect? He should start by giving it.
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WOW I can't believe I read all that. I want that time back.
Rissy, you are no fun, and far too sensitive. I just see personal issues between old friends. This world is too PC. I can't find any goddamn tylenol
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oh and for the record, I am NOT in any way trying to play down what's happened to renaeden here. I think anyone who knows how much my family concerns me in all this will know that - the effect on family of trans people is not something I take lightly at all
I just don't see how GA is being any more selfish than should be expected of anyone in her position
He is being a self-important cunt. Like Callaway I knew him as a man long before I was made aware of him being trans. GA remained a he because that is I learned to know him at WP, here and elsewhere. Then came his behaviour in this thread and now I wouldn't dream of labelling him as anything else than a he.
He wants respect? He should start by giving it.
Like I said things change but you are right about how he is behaving in this thread
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And she didn't "lead her on"
If you know that as an absolute fact, then i believe you.
Which means i wouldn't call it selfish. I would not expect
a person having such strong feelings to deny themselves
the right to be who they want to be.
I was under the impression, not just what Rissy said, that
it wasn't like that. But hands up if i am wrong.
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WOW I can't believe I read all that. I want that time back.
Rissy, you are no fun, and far too sensitive. I just see personal issues between old friends. This world is too PC. I can't find any goddamn tylenol
:LMAO:
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I don't think anyone can know it for afact except GA, but I believe her as I know what it is like to be trans myself, and it takes some people longer to accept it and realise what it is. I was lucky in that it only took me till 17.
Look at it this way - why WOULD GA "lead her on"? what would she have to gain from that? Unless you mean she knew she was trans but decided to pretend she wasn't and hide it by getting married and living as a bloke. I don't think that is the case though.
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Oh noes~ Someones calling me cissexist~ What do I do? STOP JUDGING ME~~~!!!!11
Seriously, I'm just calling you on disrespectful behavior. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm just arguing with your reason. I don't expect to change your views but I do plan to pick at your argument. Essentially you're doing the same thing to justify cissexist actions.
I honestly find psych drugs kind of crude and not actually very useful. In most cases they mess you up more or come with their own harmful side effects. Destroying and recreating the brain seems like a much better solution. Why do you need to turn a transwoman into a guy anyway? The world is overpopulated, we don't need more people breeding and a transperson can still be productive if you just let them live in the sex they want. Why do you need to fix someone's brain if they don't want it fixed. Someone who takes drugs to escape their identity honestly strike me as weaker individuals who can't handle life. Talking about vegetables wasn't scare-mongering anyway, I was openly admitting to having no regard for the life of something braindead, that is personal statement.
And since everyone loves this thread, do you really want to open philosophy arguments? Science isn't a religion, but everything you take as reality is a belief. Nothing can be proved without a context, not even the context itself. At some point you have to pretend something is true, so that other things can be compared to it. I'm all for a scientific view on reality, but it's presumptious to think any belief is more valid. Besides, I'm not discrediting science here, I'm saying that your use of science is very shallow and that you seek to develop everything towards something you view as perfection. The world is a chaotic, overwhelming mess and the idea of order and perfection is a joke. Languages and word definitions change and there is constant changes in everything. You're just unwilling to accept the changes that other people make to the world because they don't fit in your idea of how everything should be. As an individual you have that right, but as a public debate topic, your argument can be countered by anyone elses. Your context is not god.
And if you wish to make any arguments against me, don't TL;DR me, it just leaves whatever I said uncontested. I mean feel free to ignore me, but it doesn't give your pro-botty-burp argument any weight.
eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.
-
:yawn:
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eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.
You're being sensitive because you are taking everything so seriously. tits or GTFO
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Oh noes~ Someones calling me cissexist~ What do I do? STOP JUDGING ME~~~!!!!11
Seriously, I'm just calling you on disrespectful behavior. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm just arguing with your reason. I don't expect to change your views but I do plan to pick at your argument. Essentially you're doing the same thing to justify cissexist actions.
I honestly find psych drugs kind of crude and not actually very useful. In most cases they mess you up more or come with their own harmful side effects. Destroying and recreating the brain seems like a much better solution. Why do you need to turn a transwoman into a guy anyway? The world is overpopulated, we don't need more people breeding and a transperson can still be productive if you just let them live in the sex they want. Why do you need to fix someone's brain if they don't want it fixed. Someone who takes drugs to escape their identity honestly strike me as weaker individuals who can't handle life. Talking about vegetables wasn't scare-mongering anyway, I was openly admitting to having no regard for the life of something braindead, that is personal statement.
And since everyone loves this thread, do you really want to open philosophy arguments? Science isn't a religion, but everything you take as reality is a belief. Nothing can be proved without a context, not even the context itself. At some point you have to pretend something is true, so that other things can be compared to it. I'm all for a scientific view on reality, but it's presumptious to think any belief is more valid. Besides, I'm not discrediting science here, I'm saying that your use of science is very shallow and that you seek to develop everything towards something you view as perfection. The world is a chaotic, overwhelming mess and the idea of order and perfection is a joke. Languages and word definitions change and there is constant changes in everything. You're just unwilling to accept the changes that other people make to the world because they don't fit in your idea of how everything should be. As an individual you have that right, but as a public debate topic, your argument can be countered by anyone elses. Your context is not god.
And if you wish to make any arguments against me, don't TL;DR me, it just leaves whatever I said uncontested. I mean feel free to ignore me, but it doesn't give your pro-botty-burp argument any weight.
eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.
TL;DR
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eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.
You're being sensitive because you are taking everything so seriously. tits or GTFO
(http://tryptechnics.com/pictures/GOTJ2004/titties.jpg)
Did someone say tits :autism:
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Thanks guys. – but I am gonna bow out of this now.
I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about other peoples relationships.
some things ought to be kept private. I feel it will just keep
coming back to this as the relevant points seem to be about
Kayleigh.
Just want to say I do not see how or why anyone would dislike you, or feel
superior to you for being Trans. I haven't seen any posts on here
that suggest otherwise.
It is good to talk about these things and I find people from all walks of life
to be interesting. You can never have enough knowledge. There is a big
difference though between talking and receiving a lecture. I switch off, always
have, to lectures. Anyway I did learn a couple of things from this thread but
I think i have ‘maxed out’ now on what I can learn.
Only bit I still find difficult is the wording/terminology . My brain seems
to not like these new words and ‘isms’ and I feel I could easily trip up
and offend someone unintentionally. So I am off to contemplate.
I still don’t think anyone on here is the ‘c’ word or transphobic. JMO.
so lighten up. Botty-burps are fun.
-
Oh noes~ Someones calling me cissexist~ What do I do? STOP JUDGING ME~~~!!!!11
Seriously, I'm just calling you on disrespectful behavior. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm just arguing with your reason. I don't expect to change your views but I do plan to pick at your argument. Essentially you're doing the same thing to justify cissexist actions.
I honestly find psych drugs kind of crude and not actually very useful. In most cases they mess you up more or come with their own harmful side effects. Destroying and recreating the brain seems like a much better solution. Why do you need to turn a transwoman into a guy anyway? The world is overpopulated, we don't need more people breeding and a transperson can still be productive if you just let them live in the sex they want. Why do you need to fix someone's brain if they don't want it fixed. Someone who takes drugs to escape their identity honestly strike me as weaker individuals who can't
handle life. Talking about vegetables wasn't scare-mongering anyway, I was openly admitting to having no regard for the life of something braindead, that is personal statement.
Surgery and hormones also have side effects. Don't ignore the costs or benefits of any particular option.
And since everyone loves this thread, do you really want to open philosophy arguments? Science isn't a religion, but everything you take as reality is a belief. Nothing can be proved without a context, not even the context itself. At some point you have to pretend something is true, so that other things can be compared to it. I'm all for a scientific view on reality, but it's presumptious to think any belief is more valid. Besides, I'm not discrediting science here, I'm saying that your use of science is very shallow and that you seek to develop everything towards something you view as perfection. The world is a chaotic, overwhelming mess and the idea of order and perfection is a joke. Languages and word definitions change and there is constant changes in everything. You're just unwilling to accept the changes that other people make to the world because they don't fit in your idea of how everything should be. As an individual you have that right, but as a public debate topic, your argument can be countered by anyone elses. Your context is not god.
iro·ny
noun \ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
plural iro·nies
1. a : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony
2. a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3. (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony
Source (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony)
Some beliefs are more valid than others. 1 + 1 = 2 is more valid than 1 + 1 = 3.
And if you wish to make any arguments against me, don't TL;DR me, it just leaves whatever I said uncontested. I mean feel free to ignore me, but it doesn't give your pro-botty-burp argument any weight.
Indeed; however, I still haven't seen you back up your original argument.
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Surgery and hormones also have side effects. Don't ignore the costs or benefits of any particular option.
That's true, but I think that is better than the alternative if the alternative means messing around with your brain. I wouldn't wanna take the risk there personally
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Not gonna say anything, callaway?
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Thought not. Just swan in, post some mindless accusations about other people and then fuck off and leave
Pathetic
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Lol~ Word-filter it all you want, but that's just going to make botty-burp your new favourite word >:D
If you want to be immature about it I can necro every available thread with discussion of botty-burp, but I can take a joke.
More advanced trolling is relevant to the topic, but in a way making fun of or provoking the subject. And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling. Passive aggressiveness isn't necessarily subtle anyway, it's just about the attitude and method. Your response right there is perfect troll reasoning. I know because I can be a troll myself. It seems to me that your arguments consist of acting dumb and demanding evidence which you then reject. Are you just trying to troll me until I leave or are you actually going/trying to make a point against me?
You complain about all the links Kayleigh post around so why would you want me to post them? I'm not even complaining about most of the membership I'm mostly trying to debate with odeon. You don't do anything but pick at the wording I use. To avoid botty-burp, you have to treat a transwoman like a ciswoman and a transman like a cisman. The obvious infraction is refusing to use the right pronouns. Anyone here who does that is cissexist. It doesn't make a single difference what your opinion on transsexualism is, it's still botty-burp.
Now I'm not here to tell you what to do with your life, or what to believe. But I am calling people on their botty-burp and it's up to them to live with it or not. Other than that, I'm happy to debate with people over their justification for botty-burp.
bodaccea: While transitioning is a choice, transsexualism is just something you're born with, like autism. Since you were born with proper gender identity, of course you don't understand the feeling of changing your sex. If you want to ponder how if feels, just imagine all your everyday tasks as if everyone viewed you as a guy and responded as such. Getting past perversion at your own new genitals and stuff guys are allowed to do, you can't really express yourself in the same way and I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right.
Your second bit was to Bodaccea but the unnamed first bit might be to me or Parts or us all collectively. You really don't pin it down too well.
This bit
More advanced trolling is relevant to the topic, but in a way making fun of or provoking the subject. And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling. Passive aggressiveness isn't necessarily subtle anyway, it's just about the attitude and method. Your response right there is perfect troll reasoning. I know because I can be a troll myself. It seems to me that your arguments consist of acting dumb and demanding evidence which you then reject. Are you just trying to troll me until I leave or are you actually going/trying to make a point against me?
seems like a half-arsed attempt at answering my call to actually back yourself.
And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling.
This bit specifically I have shown was in direct response to Kayleigh asking why people would want to attack them. As shown so let's not say it was adjunct to the argument. It is more in line with the below. (summarised and paraphrased for brevity)
Kayleigh: Rarr you all are uneducated ignorant arseholes here are some links
Us: Fuck off Kayleigh
Kaleigh: You all are transphobic
Us: Fuck off Kayleigh
Kayleigh: I hate you all. Wahhh. I am leaving I won't recommend anyone to come here.
Us: Fuck off Kayleigh and Good riddance
Kayleigh: I don't know why you all hate me
(Now this bit is where I come in)
If anyone was trolling it was your good friend Kayleigh. My reply fitted the context beautifully I think and I think that the only one who thinks different is you.
So replying to this is necessary. I am not acting dumb and rejecting evidence. I am however demanding you back your claims as is the one rule on I2 as found on the entry home page www.intensitysquared.com.
You don't actually get a special pass of exclusion or exception. Either you are not giving evidence or are doing it in a way that makes it very difficult to be understood. None of us are stupid nor willfully ignorant and so it comes back to you. You need to back your position and you clearly aren't.
Why is that?
I personally don't want you to repost Kaleigh's links again. We got all that the first time around and I refuse to read them on the basis that they were preached at me and in a condescending arrogant manner which made me want to ignore them. You were not asked to post link's to other sites. I believe your argument that we or some of us are cis-sexist (that is that we see transpeople as inferior) you need to understand our hearts and mind and I do not think you do. I think you are scrambling to prove that any of us hold transpeople as being inferior.
Asking you to prove such an extraordinary accusation is no trolling either nor is the asking for evidence a terribly onerous thing.
Now you made what "may" seem like a decent argument in the "If they don't use "the right" pronouns, then they are cis-sexist. as it is "infraction-worthy. The act of doing do makes them cis-sexist." (Paraphrased)
However under any reasonable scrutiny this falls down doesn't it?
"If they don't use a prescribe set of pronouns =/= they think transgendered people are inferior"
No it simply doesn't mean that at all. People could use pronouns other than what you prescribe and not think any the less of transgendered people, nor think them inferior.
Are those people cis-sexist?
Maybe they are merely uncomfortable in the use of such pronouns. Maybe they are unaware of the need to use them. Maybe they dislike change (what Autistics not liking change???). Maybe they think that the whole thing is rather silly and they don't get the importance of its necessity. Maybe there are a lot of other reasons for it that i have not rattled off the top of my head.
None of these necessarily give rise to someone thinking transpeople inferior get they all involve not using the "right" pronoun which you say necessitates a person thinking a transperson inferior.
(Again most people here just don't give a shit)
So again your "evidence" does not seem "evidence" at all. Your claims are not backed and I want you to simply do as you would be expected to do were you any other member here. Make a claim and back it.
Your two claims again.
1) I have been trolling in this thread
2) People here are cis-sexist (ie think transgender people are inferior to people that are not transgender)
Why are you struggling with this?
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Thought not. Just swan in, post some mindless accusations about other people and then fuck off and leave
Pathetic
This post reminds me of Bint's first two posts in this thread.
Why Soph...why?
-
If we all just admit to being cis-sexist will she go away? Will that be a "win", and she and GA can carry on with their lives in the peace and comparative security of ... wherever they fuck off to?
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Need more tits yet?
-
Need more tits yet?
:indeed:
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If we all just admit to being cis-sexist will she go away? Will that be a "win", and she and GA can carry on with their lives in the peace and comparative security of ... wherever they fuck off to?
No life is a rough place and I think it is helpful for Rissy to back themselves. We are nothing but helpful here and I think that if Rissy is struggling to make themselves understood here, on pretty critical points integral to how they see people generally, it doesn't bode well. Better having to have them actually make a point and take a stand on it, and rise or fall on it.
I actually get the feeling in this PC world that we live in people are not seriously questioning Rissy. They either switch off, have no idea what Rissy is on about or they sycophantically agree, just to be seen as doing the right thing without questioning whether it is really right or not.
I doubt Rissy is much used to deeper examination of the things they hold near and dear and this has lead to a some pretty fanciful idea about what other's think and a want to judge as Odeon has pointed out again and again.
There is a word for this kind of judging and it is not a pretty one.
No I think it is best we humour Rissy and their strange assumptions about the world and what people do or don't think and that is key to the OP. Let's engage in debate and find out passed the inferences and implications and the unexplained why Rissy takes these strange assumptions and is finding it difficult in simply backing what they are holding out as fact.
That said Tits is welcome in any thread.
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(http://28.media.tumblr.com/VEUXnTTemmkstc3c8ZjjvFxlo1_500.jpg)
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I didn't mind Rissy at first but seriously , she's full of botty-burp :zoinks:
Are GA's friends all invading the place now btw? :orly:
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eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.
You're being sensitive because you are taking everything so seriously. tits or GTFO
:plus:
You win this thread. That is the crux of the problem with the zealous political correct types. The preaching and lack of ability to work with an audience without alienating it, is the biggest annoyance I have with them. No sense of compromise or humour whatsoever, and I'm afraid that reconcilation requires a two-sided effort. You can never expect ANYONE to fully endorse your views, but at least be considerate enough to respect some of them. That's where the argumentive strategies come in. Also you cannot stoop to the same level of judgmental thinking without loosing any moral high ground in the process; because you cannot become like your opponent in order to fight your opponent.
I mean, talk about them lacking charismatic charm to sway an audience. ::)
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Thought not. Just swan in, post some mindless accusations about other people and then fuck off and leave
Pathetic
This post reminds me of Bint's first two posts in this thread.
Why Soph...why?
Not the same
She had been reading the thread and not bothered to reply, but gone off posting elsewhere. After I asked her to respond, she again did the same.
imo She also needs to "back her shit up" if other people do. Or is she exempt from that?
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Not the same
She had been reading the thread and not bothered to reply, but gone off posting elsewhere. After I asked her to respond, she again did the same.
imo She also needs to "back her shit up" if other people do. Or is she exempt from that?
Agreed; not the same at all.
-
Thought not. Just swan in, post some mindless accusations about other people and then fuck off and leave
Pathetic
This post reminds me of Bint's first two posts in this thread.
Why Soph...why?
Not the same
She had been reading the thread and not bothered to reply, but gone off posting elsewhere. After I asked her to respond, she again did the same.
imo She also needs to "back her shit up" if other people do. Or is she exempt from that?
Maybe you are right. To be honest I did see you do this to her once already and she responded and then you do it again. Maybe she will or won't.
I would respond straight away as soon as I was aware but I am reactive and won't think much through more than the right there and then.
She may be mulling it over or ignoring it or have (like me) missed out on what you were calling her on.
I am not a hypocrite though. I do think people ought to respond and back their claims. (If they know what the claims are - I honestly don't)
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This thread is too much to care to read. Read your last post, Rissy. 'You' type talker with notions of 'everyone' assuming hate from people who don't know each other well enough to care enough to hate. Have no idea how to process much less respond.
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This thread is long yes, and full of crap. I am going to take this elsewhere, les
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Is this still going on? :autism:
(http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/174550-boobs_emo.jpg)
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Not the same
She had been reading the thread and not bothered to reply, but gone off posting elsewhere. After I asked her to respond, she again did the same.
imo She also needs to "back her shit up" if other people do. Or is she exempt from that?
Agreed; not the same at all.
Sorry, Heinrich. Misunderstood this. Thought you were talking about Binty, not Callaway.
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
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She's been here every day since starting this thread up until yesterday. Have been watching as waiting for response. Hope you don't mean she's leaving for good.
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Just chekded her profile and t says she was here yesterday, you're right
I guess she just meant she wasnt gonna be posting then
but yeah I took that to mean for good
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Oh and so Callaway has no excuse for getting out of responding again, here is my callout:
http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17347.0.html
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*Sigh*
If tits can't repair this rift i don't know what can (emo)
-
Kittens + tits?
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Kittens + tits?
= Furries
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Just chekded her profile and t says she was here yesterday, you're right
I guess she just meant she wasnt gonna be posting then
but yeah I took that to mean for good
That's a shame. Like Binty and was hoping she would answer my question. Guess could call her out for ignoring me. :P
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Just chekded her profile and t says she was here yesterday, you're right
I guess she just meant she wasnt gonna be posting then
but yeah I took that to mean for good
That's a shame. Like Binty and was hoping she would answer my question. Guess could call her out for ignoring me. :P
What was the question?
-
Kittens + tits?
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/sGe7vsCuloy191s1x5piEJSxo1_500.jpg)
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Just chekded her profile and t says she was here yesterday, you're right
I guess she just meant she wasnt gonna be posting then
but yeah I took that to mean for good
That's a shame. Like Binty and was hoping she would answer my question. Guess could call her out for ignoring me. :P
What was the question?
Funny. Easier to find in my profile than this heap of a thread.
A while ago parts made a comment about Kayleigh and no one apart from Soph challenged him.
Was waiting for you to answer Odeon's quiestion of which comment before asking, why didn't you challenge him as well?
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
Been there done that what four times or was it five?
-
Kittens + tits?
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/sGe7vsCuloy191s1x5piEJSxo1_500.jpg)
tits, not balloons.
-
Kittens + tits?
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/sGe7vsCuloy191s1x5piEJSxo1_500.jpg)
tits, not balloons.
:laugh:
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
Left? She hasn't deleted her account again, has she? ???
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also kittens, not catwoman impersonators
you failed TWICE, mla!
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
Left? She hasn't deleted her account again, has she? ???
No, she just can't be arsed with all this I think.
Which leaves me the sole defender of the gendertards, if GA is leaving too :bigcry:
-
Kittens + tits?
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/sGe7vsCuloy191s1x5piEJSxo1_500.jpg)
Also, what is that thing hanging from her nether regions? I shudder to even think of what it might be.
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
Left? She hasn't deleted her account again, has she? ???
No, she just can't be arsed with all this I think.
Which leaves me the sole defender of the gendertards, if GA is leaving too :bigcry:
What about Squiddy?
-
That big girl's blouse? he couldn't defend us from a 2 foot tall gay teddy bear :autism:
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That big girl's blouse? he couldn't defend us from a 2 foot tall gay teddy bear :autism:
:laugh:
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That big girl's blouse? he couldn't defend us from a 2 foot tall gay teddy bear :autism:
:evilplus: He's going to love this post! But he's actually rather fierce!
-
Catwoman was the quickest thing I could find. I didn't have all night to look for the most appropriate tits when my wife's were waiting for attention :autism:
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Catwoman was the quickest thing I could find. I didn't have all night to look for the most appropriate tits when my wife's were waiting for attention :autism:
Dress her up as a cat and post pictures. :viking:
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
She's left the board?
-
Kittens + tits?
(http://27.media.tumblr.com/sGe7vsCuloy191s1x5piEJSxo1_500.jpg)
QFT
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
She's left the board?
think so
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
She's left the board?
think so
Ah. Well, I'm pretty sure she will return, eventually.
What's interesting is how she started this thread with some obvious, albeit misdirected, passion but then failed to participate in the actual discussion. I would have thought that since she seems to feel so strongly about these matters she would take the time to post. :-\
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Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
She's left the board?
think so
Ah. Well, I'm pretty sure she will return, eventually.
What's interesting is how she started this thread with some obvious, albeit misdirected, passion but then failed to participate in the actual discussion. I would have thought that since she seems to feel so strongly about these matters she would take the time to post. :-\
I felt that alarming too.
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I guess she felt like addressing it when she made the thread and then realised she couldn't be arsed with all the bullshit
Although to be fair, I don't think this would have kicked off without the GA stuff
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I was the one who told GA about the thread, just thinking it might be interesting to her. I didn't think the shit would hit the fan though and I am sorry that she is going to leave over it.
-
Not your fault. I actually considered telling her myself on facebook, and might have done if she'd kept being mentioned without seeing it
I think she shouldn't delete her account though. There might be a random thread she wants to read one day in a hidden forum
Just staying away from here would be better I think (for her I mean)
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Yeah I agree.
-
Bint has left so won't be replying. Dunno if she's coming back or not, but I don't think she plans to
She's left the board?
think so
Ah. Well, I'm pretty sure she will return, eventually.
What's interesting is how she started this thread with some obvious, albeit misdirected, passion but then failed to participate in the actual discussion. I would have thought that since she seems to feel so strongly about these matters she would take the time to post. :-\
That's what happens when you make a thread out of sudden emotional urge rather than thinking it out. Good riddance I say.
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I am still kind of hoping Rissy can actually back their accusations and inferences. Seems they can judge and even give the impression of both reasonableness and level-headed intelligence, but push comes to shove they can not actually follow through when their methods and delivery are questioned.
-
That big girl's blouse? he couldn't defend us from a 2 foot tall gay teddy bear :autism:
BAD SOPH!
GO TO MY ROOM. :squiddy:
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I was the one who told GA about the thread, just thinking it might be interesting to her. I didn't think the shit would hit the fan though and I am sorry that she is going to leave over it.
No need to say sorry, it's not your fault.
However I was kind of expecting a shitstorm to happen though, hell the moment I saw Bint post the thread I thought, "Aww shit, wait until GA sees this."
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I was the one who told GA about the thread, just thinking it might be interesting to her. I didn't think the shit would hit the fan though and I am sorry that she is going to leave over it.
No need to say sorry, it's not your fault.
However I was kind of expecting a shitstorm to happen though, hell the moment I saw Bint post the thread I thought, "Aww shit, wait until GA sees this."
:indeed:
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I guess she felt like addressing it when she made the thread and then realised she couldn't be arsed with all the bullshit
Although to be fair, I don't think this would have kicked off without the GA stuff
All the bullshit? Oh, I see, she would have been forced to actually defend and back up her opinions.
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I was the one who told GA about the thread, just thinking it might be interesting to her. I didn't think the shit would hit the fan though and I am sorry that she is going to leave over it.
TBH, I think GA is a bit too sensitive for this place.
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Pretty much. Still threads like this cause drama and drama causes more activity and inevitably more lulz.
I know "It is all boring, blah, blah"...but seriously go through it and see if you don't laugh, chortle or at least smile in some bits.
OK maybe that is just me. Sorry. Where exactly were we? Were we at the bit where Rissy backs a claim or are we still at the bit where Rissy is judging us and laying accusations and inference rather thick and saying that it is evident without actually backing themselves?
Where the fuck is that fast forward button? :autism:
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People say it's boring but I actually like having something to properly discuss or argue about on here. At least now and then. Just posting my random spammy shit isn't really intersting (to me or anyone else)
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Yeah, this thread is an interesting example of how this place works. I think it's been one of the better ones lately, because there has actually been some serious discussion and heated debate. The n00b isn't very good at backing their shit up, yet, but maybe that will happen, eventually? I'm being nice. The n00b hasn't backed up anything yet.
You could always start doing your "this is me..." drawings again if you want to spam, Soph. I love those.
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Yeah, this thread is an interesting example of how this place works. I think it's been one of the better ones lately, because there has actually been some serious discussion and heated debate.
:agreed:
You could always start doing your "this is me..." drawings again if you want to spam, Soph. I love those.
I haven't done any of those for ages. I did shitloads back when I had my old computer - I have about 200 of them on my website iirc :zombiefuck:
I haven't done any on the "new" MS Paint (the one on windows 7) so might give it a go later
maybe "here's me being persecuted for my gendertardedness" :zoinks:
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I have about 200 of them on my website iirc
Wow. Should have them bound into a book. Would make a nice gift for the mum.
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Yeah, this thread is an interesting example of how this place works. I think it's been one of the better ones lately, because there has actually been some serious discussion and heated debate.
:agreed:
You could always start doing your "this is me..." drawings again if you want to spam, Soph. I love those.
I haven't done any of those for ages. I did shitloads back when I had my old computer - I have about 200 of them on my website iirc :zombiefuck:
I haven't done any on the "new" MS Paint (the one on windows 7) so might give it a go later
maybe "here's me being persecuted for my gendertardedness" :zoinks:
:rofl: :plus:
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I have about 200 of them on my website iirc
Wow. Should have them bound into a book. Would make a nice gift for the mum.
my mum actually got a tiny little flip book thing printed with some of them in. Like the size of a credit card. I think it's in the background of one of the pics I took of my stuff yesterday, will have a look if I posted it on here or not later
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I actually did draw a similar thing on paper the other day when waiting and getting bored: - that's meant to be flo on the right (obviously a much smaller version of her :laugh: )
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and yes I know I'm no artist :P
it's a fun way to waste time though. my little aspie cousin used to love copying my drawings
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and yes I know I'm no artist :P
it's a fun way to waste time though. my little aspie cousin used to love copying my drawings
I like it
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Not wanting to join the crowd on this but yeah I like the drawing too.
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People say it's boring but I actually like having something to properly discuss or argue about on here. At least now and then. Just posting my random spammy shit isn't really intersting (to me or anyone else)
Yes I agree 100%.
I did say I like arguing and that is a little oversimplified. I like heated discussions.
Odeon is right. I would honestly like Rissy to stick around (after they backed their shit up some) but I think I will survive fine if they don't.
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If we all just admit to being cis-sexist will she go away? Will that be a "win", and she and GA can carry on with their lives in the peace and comparative security of ... wherever they fuck off to?
You don't even have to admit it but if you can't respect transpeople, what the hell do you care? I'm calling people on offensive behavior. I don't think this forum cares who gets offended by their views, but people still inform them when they are offending others. I'm not trying to make you care, I'm just calling you out on it. If someone wants to argue how transpeople should be treated, that's a seperate subject. odeon kind of brought that subject up but now wishes to tl;dr instead of continue it. Swearengen is on the edge of bringing up the topic.
I'm just responding. If people didn't continue to argue with me, this could of ended at tits. I've already said that the majority of people here aren't cissexist, and most people have said they would treat someone they loved/cared for in a non-cissexist way. But Swearengen and Semicolon is still unhappy with my argument so I'm still here solidify my argument to them. As they are asking of me.
Some beliefs are more valid than others. 1 + 1 = 2 is more valid than 1 + 1 = 3.
Wrong! 1 + 1 = 10
The context isn't the decimal system, it's binary. And in a context where decimal 2 is represented by the symbol 3, then 1 + 1 = 3 is true. You take so many beliefs for granted, and that's where your objectivity fails. You make assumptions on what is real and what is imagined. You then base you arguments on hypothetical foundations. Mutual agreement is not an argument because you're presuming that your environment and those around you are real. There is no way to universally prove anything so the only way to make sense of anything is to make assumptions. It's all about the context. And science vs religion fails because you're not on the same page. You've based your reality on different assumptions and you're only right in your own little world
If anyone was trolling it was your good friend Kayleigh. My reply fitted the context beautifully I think and I think that the only one who thinks different is you.
1. n.
an ugly person; a grouchy person. : Gee, that dame is a real troll. What's her problem?
2. n.
an internet user who sends inflammatory or provocative messages designed to elicit negative responses or start a flame-war. (As a fisherman trolls for an unsuspecting fish.) : Don't answer those silly messages. Some troll is just looking for an argument.
3. n.
a message sent by a troll (sense 2). : Every time I get a troll, I just delete it.
Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions by Richard A. Spears.Fourth Edition.
Copyright 2007. Published by McGraw Hill.
You both can be said to be trolling. But Kayleigh was ranting and preaching. Your 'fuck off Kayleigh' replies were made to upset her into leaving. You are free to disagree with my use of the word, but it is a fair use of the word.
Now you made what "may" seem like a decent argument in the "If they don't use "the right" pronouns, then they are cissexist. as it is "infraction-worthy. The act of doing do makes them cis-sexist." (Paraphrased)
However under any reasonable scrutiny this falls down doesn't it?
"If they don't use a prescribe set of pronouns =/= they think transgendered people are inferior"
No it simply doesn't mean that at all. People could use pronouns other than what you prescribe and not think any the less of transgendered people, nor think them inferior.
Are those people cis-sexist?
botty-burp is all about cissexual/cisgender priveledge. I'm sure Kayleigh has posted it before but I can't blame you for not wanting to read it. The difference between botty-burp and transphobia is like the difference between heterosexism and homophobia, or maybe sexism and misogyny/misandry. It's generally about pettier things and the difference in how the other side is treated more favourably. Compare it to white priveledge or male priveledge or whatever. If a cisperson has their gender identity respected but a transperson doesn't, they are being treated inferior to a cisperson. Ignorance or apathy isn't an excuse. There are plenty of people don't think black people are inferior to white people, but they still avoid black people and favor white people. If you've ever watched the italian movie Black and White/Bianco e nero, it had a father proclaimed to like black people but in truth only fetishized black females. Actions kind of speak louder than words and thoughts. And it's not like it's an over-all bad trait. But it's offensive to some people. And in calling some people cissexist, I only mean to point out offensive behavior.
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If we all just admit to being cis-sexist will she go away? Will that be a "win", and she and GA can carry on with their lives in the peace and comparative security of ... wherever they fuck off to?
You don't even have to admit it but if you can't respect transpeople, what the hell do you care? I'm calling people on offensive behavior. I don't think this forum cares who gets offended by their views, but people still inform them when they are offending others. I'm not trying to make you care, I'm just calling you out on it.
You are calling ME out on it? Links, or it didn't happen.
As to the rest :yawn:
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Herp derp
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Some beliefs are more valid than others. 1 + 1 = 2 is more valid than 1 + 1 = 3.
Wrong! 1 + 1 = 10
The context isn't the decimal system, it's binary. And in a context where decimal 2 is represented by the symbol 3, then 1 + 1 = 3 is true. You take so many beliefs for granted, and that's where your objectivity fails. You make assumptions on what is real and what is imagined. You then base you arguments on hypothetical foundations. Mutual agreement is not an argument because you're presuming that your environment and those around you are real. There is no way to universally prove anything so the only way to make sense of anything is to make assumptions. It's all about the context. And science vs religion fails because you're not on the same page. You've based your reality on different assumptions and you're only right in your own little world
But 10 in binary is the same as 2 in decimal. The context doesn't really matter; it's the same number, no matter how you represent it.
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You are calling ME out on it? Links, or it didn't happen.
As to the rest :yawn:
No, I'm not calling you on it. You're just playing with this thread. Maybe I might call you on cissexist behavior sometime, but you haven't really expressed an opinion on it, or atleast, not one I wish to search for. But you were suggesting accepting the term to get rid of me. I was using 'you' collectively, and to apply only to relevant individuals. People like to believe that I'm forcing people to do stuff when really I'm just arguing the semantics of botty-burp and such.
odeon is probably the only person here that I'd label cissexist. Everyone else only ever show petty examples of the behavior, if at all.
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Some beliefs are more valid than others. 1 + 1 = 2 is more valid than 1 + 1 = 3.
Wrong! 1 + 1 = 10
The context isn't the decimal system, it's binary. And in a context where decimal 2 is represented by the symbol 3, then 1 + 1 = 3 is true. You take so many beliefs for granted, and that's where your objectivity fails. You make assumptions on what is real and what is imagined. You then base you arguments on hypothetical foundations. Mutual agreement is not an argument because you're presuming that your environment and those around you are real. There is no way to universally prove anything so the only way to make sense of anything is to make assumptions. It's all about the context. And science vs religion fails because you're not on the same page. You've based your reality on different assumptions and you're only right in your own little world
But 10 in binary is the same as 2 in decimal. The context doesn't really matter; it's the same number, no matter how you represent it.
Also, while I am willing to argue philosophy and the fundamentals of reality, this argument is about transsexualism.
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You are calling ME out on it? Links, or it didn't happen.
As to the rest :yawn:
No, I'm not calling you on it. You're just playing with this thread. Maybe I might call you on cissexist behavior sometime, but you haven't really expressed an opinion on it, or atleast, not one I wish to search for. But you were suggesting accepting the term to get rid of me. I was using 'you' collectively, and to apply only to relevant individuals. People like to believe that I'm forcing people to do stuff when really I'm just arguing the semantics of botty-burp and such.
odeon is probably the only person here that I'd label cissexist. Everyone else only ever show petty examples of the behavior, if at all.
Your kind of attitude always interests me. You insert yourself somewhere to take part in a discussion that has nothing to do with you, and now that you are here you will persist until you have shown everyone the light and changed the world. I usually only see this behavior coming from evangelical Christians.
Are you here on God's authority to bring light to the wicked and save the sinners?
Are you here out of a duty to humanity to make sure all the spazzes are shown the proper way of thinking?
Or are you here out of an overblown sense of self-importance, and because you literally cannot conceive of a conversation in which your enlightened viewpoint should not be held at highest center?
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But 10 in binary is the same as 2 in decimal. The context doesn't really matter; it's the same number, no matter how you represent it.
The context still matters for understanding and communicating the point. I'm only using maths as a basic example since you used maths as a basic example. Logic itself is only relevant to the type of environment you have. While you can't perceive a different alien perception of logic outside the one logic that we have, it is theoretically there and comparing the two logics would be mind breaking. Maybe God is like that which is why religious arguments make no logical sense to us ;)
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Who are us and we?
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Who are us and we?
We are everyone except them, and us is we and them. :thumbup:
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Thanks. Just figured out who you and everyone are; was a bit of overload.
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Your kind of attitude always interests me. You insert yourself somewhere to take part in a discussion that has nothing to do with you, and now that you are here you will persist until you have shown everyone the light and changed the world. I usually only see this behavior coming from evangelical Christians.
Are you here on God's authority to bring light to the wicked and save the sinners?
Are you here out of a duty to humanity to make sure all the spazzes are shown the proper way of thinking?
Or are you here out of an overblown sense of self-importance, and because you literally cannot conceive of a conversation in which your enlightened viewpoint should not be held at highest center?
I'm pretty sure it's typical human judging, like the type you're casting on me. I'm not trying to make anyone change their views, I'm just using a word on people that describes their behavior. I could make up a word called Spoonrape and say that it perfectly describes what kind of person you are. Basically, I say you're being offensive and then you say 'whatever' and then we continue with our lives.
I'm just critical and like to argue with people about whatever. I don't try to tell people how to live their lives. I don't even have a reason to live, I just do whatever I want.
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That said, I like pushing people around and telling them what to do. It's fun, and I'm a self important bitch like that. But in this case, I'm not doing that, I'm only being critical
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130350576770.jpg)
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Basically, I say you're being offensive and then you say 'whatever' and then we continue with our lives.
When do we get to that part? It sounds awesome :headbang2:
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That said, I like pushing people around and telling them what to do. It's fun, and I'm a self important bitch like that. But in this case, I'm not doing that, I'm only being critical
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130350576770.jpg)
???
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That said, I like pushing people around and telling them what to do. It's fun, and I'm a self important bitch like that. But in this case, I'm not doing that, I'm only being critical
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130350576770.jpg)
That's not misogynistic at all. :zoinks:
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Why do I feel like this is Meadow having a go at us? Is it the childishness, or something in the posting style?
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What ever
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When do we get to that part? It sounds awesome :headbang2:
My life involves criticising and arguing with people. :laugh: This thread will only end when people get bored of arguing with me. I just mean that my labeling of people has no effect on their lives. I'm not trying to convert people (I can do that with witchcraft >:D :P ) like Kayleigh was. The arguing is simply for fun.
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When do we get to that part? It sounds awesome :headbang2:
My life involves criticising and arguing with people. :laugh: This thread will only end when people get bored of arguing with me. I just mean that my labeling of people has no effect on their lives. I'm not trying to convert people (I can do that with witchcraft >:D :P ) like Kayleigh was. The arguing is simply for fun.
Are you always so preachy in your arguments?
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Can you show me how I'm preachy. I'd like that statement backed up ;D
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I'll take that as a yes
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When do we get to that part? It sounds awesome :headbang2:
My life involves criticising and arguing with people. :laugh: This thread will only end when people get bored of arguing with me. I just mean that my labeling of people has no effect on their lives. I'm not trying to convert people (I can do that with witchcraft >:D :P ) like Kayleigh was. The arguing is simply for fun.
I think you will find that I have not argued with you. I have only called you senseless and boring and questioned your inflated ego and sense of self-importance. I can't really argue about your long-winded diatribes about pronoun policing because TL;DR.
:yawn:
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I know you aren't arguing with me. It's mostly Swearengen who likes this topic.
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I know you aren't arguing with me. It's mostly Swearengen who likes this topic.
If your intention is to stick around until Al stops arguing with you, then :welcome: to I2. I hope you brought extra clothes and something comfortable to sit on. You aren't ever leaving.
Ever.
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That's not misogynistic at all. :zoinks:
Only if I was aiming it at women. As it happens I'm aiming it at women, men and other. So no sexism involved~
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That's not misogynistic at all. :zoinks:
Only if I was aiming it at women. As it happens I'm aiming it at women, men and other. So no sexism involved~
For your information, I don't think that people earn respect with disrespectful behavior. I've already said that. But if you're disrespectful, you can't really complain someone else is, maybe you should be the one to grow up first. It's not even about Kayleigh, think about transpeople in general, if you're publically saying things that would offend transpeople, that is obviously botty-burp, regardless of whether you care. You know the original link? That had a lot of comments that sounded racist about the attackers. I totally call them out on racism there and I'm caucasian. The very issue here is botty-burp and plenty of the louder people here ARE cissexist. I'm just saying that being cissexist is an act of discrimination. I'm not arguing that people are transphobic so going on about that is pointless. I'm only calling botty-burp. And some of you accept that you're cissexist, which is your choice to make.
odeon:You talk about me judging people, but what if i went around making sexist, racist and pansexist comment, I'm sure you'd judge me. I'm here for the argument. Judging you is something I can do without typing a single key. I'm sure there's some argument we agree on and I could respect you for that, but I don't respect your view on transsexualism and I'm arguing against your comments.
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http://tranarchism.com/2011/04/26/guest-post-why-misgendering-is-bad/
Might be informative, I dunno :dunno:
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I never made the claim that I'm not an offensive bitch at times. In fact I'm offensive a lot of the time. Usually only for tasteless jokes though.
I was only playing anyway and I'm sure you can appreciate the humor. If I'm offending anyone go ahead and say it.
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I never made the claim that I'm not an offensive bitch at times. In fact I'm offensive a lot of the time. Usually only for tasteless jokes though.
I was only playing anyway
So you don't have an argument? You can hardly criticize us for being offensive if you admit to being an "offensive bitch" yourself.
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I never made the claim that I'm not an offensive bitch at times. In fact I'm offensive a lot of the time. Usually only for tasteless jokes though.
I was only playing anyway
So you don't have an argument? You can hardly criticize us for being offensive if you admit to being an "offensive bitch" yourself.
Yeah, I thought that was the crux of your argument. We are being offensive through the diabolical switching of pronouns.
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So you don't have an argument? You can hardly criticize us for being offensive if you admit to being an "offensive bitch" yourself.
Why? I'm not telling you not be offensive, I'm just criticising you for it. Just like you're allowed to criticise me when I'm being offensive. I may tell you that I don't care too.
And I don't expect to leave until I get bored. I did say that earlier. If I was just here to attack this thread I wouldn't post elsewhere.
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So you don't have an argument? You can hardly criticize us for being offensive if you admit to being an "offensive bitch" yourself.
Why? I'm not telling you not be offensive, I'm just criticising you for it. Just like you're allowed to criticise me when I'm being offensive. I may tell you that I don't care too.
So, you're pretty much admitting to being a hypocrite ?
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I don't quite meant that. I just mean that she shouldn't of married her because she is trans. I'm pretty sure it was a mutual enough relationship, but of course transitioning is going to hurt people. Putting on a facade for others and then finally shattering what people thought about you is obviously hard on others. It's like finding out that you were lied to by your spouse. If they meant to be together, Kayleigh should of started transitioning first.
I wasn't fully aware of being trans at the point, I knew I had gender issues, which I thought I dealt with when I saw a psychiatrist who told me it was just learned behaviour and I should stop reinforcing it by doing whatever I was doing. So I buried it, ignored, just as I had done the years prior to seeing the psych.
Had I been aware of being transgender, and hadn't transitioned by that point (for whatever reason) I definitely would've advised renaeden to perhaps reconsider a relationship with me, let alone marriage.
What happened with our relationship is entirely my own fault. I freely admit and accept that.
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So, you're pretty much admitting to being a hypocrite ?
Depends on what we're talking about. I'm sure I can be a hypocite about something. But I'm not telling people they can't criticise me. I'm just in the act of criticising. Defending myself might be a good conversation too, but only if I objected to what people were saying. I have no problem with being vilified with truthful statements.
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So you don't have an argument? You can hardly criticize us for being offensive if you admit to being an "offensive bitch" yourself.
Why? I'm not telling you not be offensive, I'm just criticising you for it. Just like you're allowed to criticise me when I'm being offensive. I may tell you that I don't care too.
And I don't expect to leave until I get bored. I did say that earlier. If I was just here to attack this thread I wouldn't post elsewhere.
You don't post elsewhere. You already admitted to trolling elsewhere, and I haven't seen anything useful added to any other conversations. You want to eat dick and fuck the royal family, did I miss anything else of substance?
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And you don't troll these forums too ::)
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And you don't troll these forums too ::)
Nope. I am friendly with just about everyone here :asthing:
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And you don't troll these forums too ::)
Nope. I am friendly with just about everyone here :asthing:
:indeed: you aren't a troll
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So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
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and yes I know I'm no artist :P
it's a fun way to waste time though. my little aspie cousin used to love copying my drawings
Actually you are brilliant. It's not always just about the mechanical skills, you know.
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So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
Just curious. Are you the friend at whose house GA spent the night on February 13, 2009, which was the night before renaeden's birthday?
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So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
I can't tell who you are talking to. I have never called you hostile, only boring and self-important.
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odeon is probably the only person here that I'd label cissexist. Everyone else only ever show petty examples of the behavior, if at all.
Get off the high horses before you fall off. You have no idea of how to ride.
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Troll isn't really the right word, but I'm using it in the same context you applied to me
Just curious. Are you the friend at whose house GA spent the night on February 13, 2009, which was the night before renaeden's birthday?
I have absolutely no idea. Probably not. I don't see her much.
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That said, I like pushing people around and telling them what to do. It's fun, and I'm a self important bitch like that. But in this case, I'm not doing that, I'm only being critical
The problem with this is that you just aren't good enough. Here you remain target practice, the kind of amusement one might enjoy after a beer or two but that is just too tedious, wordy and, frankly, boring when you don't have the beer to resort to. It takes more than a few fancy words the dictionaries have not yet caught on.
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Get off the high horses before you fall off. You have no idea of how to ride.
Why do you care if I call you cissexist?
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and yes I know I'm no artist :P
it's a fun way to waste time though. my little aspie cousin used to love copying my drawings
Actually you are brilliant. It's not always just about the mechanical skills, you know.
thanks. my family like my drawings for the expressions on the faces and things like that, but with family I often just assume they're deluded/misguided out of love for me :laugh:
I think it would be awesome to be really good at drawing. Proper drawing I mean. little cartoony stuff is fun though, and makes for easy doodling when you're meant to be doing other things lol
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When do we get to that part? It sounds awesome :headbang2:
My life involves criticising and arguing with people. :laugh: This thread will only end when people get bored of arguing with me. I just mean that my labeling of people has no effect on their lives. I'm not trying to convert people (I can do that with witchcraft >:D :P ) like Kayleigh was. The arguing is simply for fun.
What arguing? Where? You rode in on some particularly high horses but I have yet to see rationality and logic from you. Your "method" consists of fancy wording and initial assumptions, all basically equating judgement before debate, but my impression is that you are just too young and inexperienced, and possibly not bright enough to do it.
If this is what your life is like, though, I'm sure you'll be used to the kind of bitch-slapping you get here.
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Get off the high horses before you fall off. You have no idea of how to ride.
Why do you care if I call you cissexist?
You still don't get it, do you? Even after you have been told over and over and over. Nobody cares what you call anybody. You are target practice. You are a little bit of fun for as long as you last. Nobody cares about your agenda, you are simply something to argue with that has the added bonus of being really bad at it.
You are fodder for entertainment.
You are a minor distraction that breaks up the monotony of the day.
You are a lulzcow.
Half of your arguing today has been with me, and I share your sentiments. Do you get it now?
Please keep it up, Al hasn't even warmed up yet and I really do enjoy watching once he does. :zoinks:
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Half of your arguing today has been with me, and I share your sentiments. Do you get it now?
yes, that is the biggest lol of this whole thing. She is arguing with people who really aren't bigots.
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And you don't troll these forums too ::)
Nope. He is contributing. Read his posts, there is a lot to learn.
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So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
I can't tell who you are talking to. I have never called you hostile, only boring and self-important.
So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
I can't tell who you are talking to. I have never called you hostile, only boring and self-important.
And you don't troll these forums too ::)
Nope. I am friendly with just about everyone here :asthing:
Implying I'm being unfriendly
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and yes I know I'm no artist :P
it's a fun way to waste time though. my little aspie cousin used to love copying my drawings
Actually you are brilliant. It's not always just about the mechanical skills, you know.
thanks. my family like my drawings for the expressions on the faces and things like that, but with family I often just assume they're deluded/misguided out of love for me :laugh:
I think it would be awesome to be really good at drawing. Proper drawing I mean. little cartoony stuff is fun though, and makes for easy doodling when you're meant to be doing other things lol
I think what makes your drawings so awesome is the intelligence behind them. Yes, sure, great drawing skills can sometimes make a difference but I'd pick brains over mechanics any time.
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4 guests on this post now. The sister-sexual brigade must be out in full force :viking:
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and yes I know I'm no artist :P
it's a fun way to waste time though. my little aspie cousin used to love copying my drawings
Actually you are brilliant. It's not always just about the mechanical skills, you know.
thanks. my family like my drawings for the expressions on the faces and things like that, but with family I often just assume they're deluded/misguided out of love for me :laugh:
I think it would be awesome to be really good at drawing. Proper drawing I mean. little cartoony stuff is fun though, and makes for easy doodling when you're meant to be doing other things lol
I think what makes your drawings so awesome is the intelligence behind them. Yes, sure, great drawing skills can sometimes make a difference but I'd pick brains over mechanics any time.
:agreed: Soph's drawings are imaginative and endearing.
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Get off the high horses before you fall off. You have no idea of how to ride.
Why do you care if I call you cissexist?
I don't. I think you have no legs to stand on but are filled with the kind of self-importance I usually only see in very religious people, and they are always fun to use as target practice.
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Please keep it up, Al hasn't even warmed up yet and I really do enjoy watching once he does. :zoinks:
I am warming the popcorn as we speak. :popcorn:
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You still don't get it, do you? Even after you have been told over and over and over. Nobody cares what you call anybody. You are target practice. You are a little bit of fun for as long as you last. Nobody cares about your agenda, you are simply something to argue with that has the added bonus of being really bad at it.
Fun, isn't it?
I don't have an agenda here though, just random crticising.
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^^ its not really random
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Troll isn't really the right word, but I'm using it in the same context you applied to me
Just curious. Are you the friend at whose house GA spent the night on February 13, 2009, which was the night before renaeden's birthday?
I have absolutely no idea. Probably not. I don't see her much.
I'm not calling you a troll, but I do think that you came here primarily over a single issue.
Are you one of GA's friends from the Freedom Centre?
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So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
I can't tell who you are talking to. I have never called you hostile, only boring and self-important.
So are you going to back up the claim that I'm hostile?
I'm still being friendly and playful with everyone here. I'm only annoying.
I can't tell who you are talking to. I have never called you hostile, only boring and self-important.
And you don't troll these forums too ::)
Nope. I am friendly with just about everyone here :asthing:
Implying I'm being unfriendly
Nope, implying that you just don't get it.
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You still don't get it, do you? Even after you have been told over and over and over. Nobody cares what you call anybody. You are target practice. You are a little bit of fun for as long as you last. Nobody cares about your agenda, you are simply something to argue with that has the added bonus of being really bad at it.
Fun, isn't it?
I don't have an agenda here though, just random crticising.
No, it's not that much fun. You won't join the ranks of the great trolls of this board, ever.
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You still don't get it, do you? Even after you have been told over and over and over. Nobody cares what you call anybody. You are target practice. You are a little bit of fun for as long as you last. Nobody cares about your agenda, you are simply something to argue with that has the added bonus of being really bad at it.
Fun, isn't it?
I don't have an agenda here though, just random crticising.
You don't know the definition of agenda or random. This is almost becoming unfair. :(
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I don't quite meant that. I just mean that she shouldn't of married her because she is trans. I'm pretty sure it was a mutual enough relationship, but of course transitioning is going to hurt people. Putting on a facade for others and then finally shattering what people thought about you is obviously hard on others. It's like finding out that you were lied to by your spouse. If they meant to be together, Kayleigh should of started transitioning first.
I wasn't fully aware of being trans at the point, I knew I had gender issues, which I thought I dealt with when I saw a psychiatrist who told me it was just learned behaviour and I should stop reinforcing it by doing whatever I was doing. So I buried it, ignored, just as I had done the years prior to seeing the psych.
Had I been aware of being transgender, and hadn't transitioned by that point (for whatever reason) I definitely would've advised renaeden to perhaps reconsider a relationship with me, let alone marriage.
What happened with our relationship is entirely my own fault. I freely admit and accept that.
Looks to me like you're saying it with such hollowness and no consideration for what renaeden has been going through because of you. You freely admit and accept it's entirely your fault, fine. But you do realize exactly what you've done to her, right?
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Are you one of GA's friends from the Freedom Centre?
I've been there at least... I never went there too much and I heard I was banned anyway?
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No, it's not that much fun. You won't join the ranks of the great trolls of this board, ever.
I'm not trolling
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No, it's not that much fun. You won't join the ranks of the great trolls of this board, ever.
I'm not trolling
Then start backing up your shit.
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Looks to me like you're saying it with such hollowness and no consideration for what renaeden has been going through because of you. You freely admit and accept it's entirely your fault, fine. But you do realize exactly what you've done to her, right?
Are you suggesting that renaeden needs such a terrible person in her life? Do you want to list everything she's done wrong to her? Is there a point to bringing it up, or are you just acting like what people are making me out to be?
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But you do realize exactly what you've done to her, right?
More than you will.
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Then start backing up your shit.
What do you want backed up? You have to specify which statements you weren't satisfied with?
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Then start backing up your shit.
What do you want backed up? You have to specify which statements you weren't satisfied with?
Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
A word of advice: don't choose the puppet line of defence re altering the brain because it will make you look daft.
Of course, Al's been asking you to back up the claims you made re trolling and whatnot, and you haven't been doing any of that either.
Mainly, why would you get to define those pronouns when your ideas are based on those of a very small minority?
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Looks to me like you're saying it with such hollowness and no consideration for what renaeden has been going through because of you. You freely admit and accept it's entirely your fault, fine. But you do realize exactly what you've done to her, right?
Are you suggesting that renaeden needs such a terrible person in her life? Do you want to list everything she's done wrong to her? Is there a point to bringing it up, or are you just acting like what people are making me out to be?
What are people making you out to be, Rissy? Something more than just an online punching bag?
And isn't it interesting that you're the one suggesting Kayleigh's a terrible person? Not that I disagree or anything. But that makes you a cissexist. :autism:
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Who is Rissy?
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Who is Rissy?
GA's IRL friend. Rissy says close friend; GA says not so close.
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Who is Rissy?
Some white knight here to defend GA.
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??? so not GA with a proxy?
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GA should learn to be :arrr: :viking:
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Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
Linguistically speaking a pronoun is a placeholder for a name. So instead of "Odeon", we could say "he". In the sentence the "he" refers to you. Thus it's your pronoun. Just as Odeon is your name. To refer to you as she or it or they or any other pronoun would be disrespecting you, in the same way as deliberating calling you by a name that is not your own. The pronoun is a placeholder for the name of the subject. It is not a placeholder applied by the 3rd party, but rather it is intrinsic to the person to whom it refers.
I am Kayleigh. I am a female for social purposes. It's appropriate to refer to me using feminine pronouns as that is my identity. And as they are my pronouns I have the right to decide what they should and should not be, just as you would yourself.
This has nothing to do with perception or definition, but rather identity. I identify as a female. I do not identify as a male.
On the matter of definition I would suggest that you expand your horizons a little to include intersex people, and the recent research studies into the 5 sexes. The definitions of "man" and/or "woman" are not as clear cut as you seem to understand them to be.
To apply a wholly physical definition of woman (or man for that matter) is not only factually inaccurate, but it also disrespects not only trans people, but also intersex people, and women (or men) in general. You narrow the definition and restrict the freedom of identification. What starts out as a logically reasoned opinion quickly becomes a sexist attitude.
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??? so not GA with a proxy?
Why would I do that?
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Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
Linguistically speaking a pronoun is a placeholder for a name. So instead of "Odeon", we could say "he". In the sentence the "he" refers to you. Thus it's your pronoun. Just as Odeon is your name. To refer to you as she or it or they or any other pronoun would be disrespecting you, in the same way as deliberating calling you by a name that is not your own. The pronoun is a placeholder for the name of the subject. It is not a placeholder applied by the 3rd party, but rather it is intrinsic to the person to whom it refers.
I am Kayleigh. I am a female for social purposes. It's appropriate to refer to me using feminine pronouns as that is my identity. And as they are my pronouns I have the right to decide what they should and should not be, just as you would yourself.
This has nothing to do with perception or definition, but rather identity. I identify as a female. I do not identify as a male.
On the matter of definition I would suggest that you expand your horizons a little to include intersex people, and the recent research studies into the 5 sexes. The definitions of "man" and/or "woman" are not as clear cut as you seem to understand them to be.
To apply a wholly physical definition of woman (or man for that matter) is not only factually inaccurate, but it also disrespects not only trans people, but also intersex people, and women (or men) in general. You narrow the definition and restrict the freedom of identification. What starts out as a logically reasoned opinion quickly becomes a sexist attitude.
What studies? Do you have links?
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??? so not GA with a proxy?
Why would I do that?
You tell me :P
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Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
Linguistically speaking a pronoun is a placeholder for a name. So instead of "Odeon", we could say "he". In the sentence the "he" refers to you. Thus it's your pronoun. Just as Odeon is your name. To refer to you as she or it or they or any other pronoun would be disrespecting you, in the same way as deliberating calling you by a name that is not your own. The pronoun is a placeholder for the name of the subject. It is not a placeholder applied by the 3rd party, but rather it is intrinsic to the person to whom it refers.
I am Kayleigh. I am a female for social purposes. It's appropriate to refer to me using feminine pronouns as that is my identity. And as they are my pronouns I have the right to decide what they should and should not be, just as you would yourself.
This has nothing to do with perception or definition, but rather identity. I identify as a female. I do not identify as a male.
On the matter of definition I would suggest that you expand your horizons a little to include intersex people, and the recent research studies into the 5 sexes. The definitions of "man" and/or "woman" are not as clear cut as you seem to understand them to be.
To apply a wholly physical definition of woman (or man for that matter) is not only factually inaccurate, but it also disrespects not only trans people, but also intersex people, and women (or men) in general. You narrow the definition and restrict the freedom of identification. What starts out as a logically reasoned opinion quickly becomes a sexist attitude.
I thought you left i2 already. Can you kindly please continue getting the fuck out?
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Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
Linguistically speaking a pronoun is a placeholder for a name. So instead of "Odeon", we could say "he". In the sentence the "he" refers to you. Thus it's your pronoun. Just as Odeon is your name. To refer to you as she or it or they or any other pronoun would be disrespecting you, in the same way as deliberating calling you by a name that is not your own. The pronoun is a placeholder for the name of the subject. It is not a placeholder applied by the 3rd party, but rather it is intrinsic to the person to whom it refers.
I am Kayleigh. I am a female for social purposes. It's appropriate to refer to me using feminine pronouns as that is my identity. And as they are my pronouns I have the right to decide what they should and should not be, just as you would yourself.
This has nothing to do with perception or definition, but rather identity. I identify as a female. I do not identify as a male.
On the matter of definition I would suggest that you expand your horizons a little to include intersex people, and the recent research studies into the 5 sexes. The definitions of "man" and/or "woman" are not as clear cut as you seem to understand them to be.
To apply a wholly physical definition of woman (or man for that matter) is not only factually inaccurate, but it also disrespects not only trans people, but also intersex people, and women (or men) in general. You narrow the definition and restrict the freedom of identification. What starts out as a logically reasoned opinion quickly becomes a sexist attitude.
For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
Now, you are perfectly free to disagree with my reasoning but don't try to force your views on me. Throughout this thread I have tried to make clear that these are *my* views, my opinions, and that you are free to live your life as you see fit, free to choose whatever pronouns you see fit, regardless of what I think. What you can't do is to force your views on me, not by trying to guilt-trip me or by bringing in your friends or anything else.
If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.
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Five sexes :dunno: What pronouns do the other three use
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Pronouns are used along gender lines, not sexes.
http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html
http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm
In terms of non-binary genders there are gender neutral pronoun neologisms. Which I don't personally like or agree with, but if someone asked me to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns I'd do me best.
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For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
I disagree, but I don't have the evidence to support me at this point.
Where do those who can't reproduce fall? Are they neither man nor woman? Your definitions and expectations are narrow, and thus follows your mind.
If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.
You'll have to explain that one to me.
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Then start backing up your shit.
What do you want backed up? You have to specify which statements you weren't satisfied with?
Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
A word of advice: don't choose the puppet line of defence re altering the brain because it will make you look daft.
Of course, Al's been asking you to back up the claims you made re trolling and whatnot, and you haven't been doing any of that either.
Mainly, why would you get to define those pronouns when your ideas are based on those of a very small minority?
Don't tl;dr my posts then. I have backed up claims from from Swearengen, it's up to him to flaw my last attempt and if you want to challenge them, you should critique them yourself.
With all due respect, GA is not a woman. He is someone who would like to be one, sure, but that alone does not a woman make. It's not right for people in his situation, nor those sympathetic to them, to hijack the definition just because they want it. Come up with another term, because this one is already consistently defined.
The word wasn't hijacked, it was adapted, and since you object to anything but binary genders as you said earlier, you're giving nothing them. Language changes and new words and made and defined. It's not like there isn't there isn't words with multiple dictionary meaning.
Call me a bad person if you want to, but I am mostly indifferent to the plights of these people. Live and let live, and all that. I will say this, however: I don't have anything per se against the transgendered, but I will also not abuse vocabulary and definitions I see as very well defined as well as reasonably fundamental to human reproductive biology and our society in general.
That is an opinion and a selfish view of yours. You're entitled to it but it's not an argument.
You are being cissexist because you deny transpeoples' gender identity while respecting cispeoples' gender identity. It's minor, but you're still treating them inferior and with disrespect. Some people are against gay marriage without thinking gay people are inferior, they just have a selfish view that gay people shouldn't be allowed to. You can call me disrespectful for not observing your ideas of how everything should be, but so can a nazi. We can both say we don't care about the label thrust upon us. I'm only arguing that your behavior is cissexist, I don't expect you to change your views. If I attack your views, it's for the sake of argument and not because I'm forcing you to accept stuff. If you can object to the use of pronouns by transpeople, I can object to your opinion.
The contributions and the concerns of minorities shouldn't be treated as inferior. Things change. People fight for stuff and get it.
The sky can be pink at one point of the day anyway.
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GA's IRL friend. Rissy says close friend; GA says not so close.
When did I say I was a close friend?
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For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
So you're saying there is a reason why humans are here?
(http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af341/TentacleQueen/130397541153.jpg)
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If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.
You'll have to explain that one to me.
It's a fair argument. You want him to respect your view, but at the same time, you're disrespecting his view. The world is full of conflicting views. All you can do is debate his arguments, which probably won't change his view. You can't make him do anything. I'm here because I like the discussion, even though no one really likes me :'( .
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even though no one really likes me :'( .
Liking people takes time for some. Don't dislike you, if that counts for anything.
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even though no one really likes me :'( .
Liking people takes time for some. Don't dislike you, if that counts for anything.
Yeah, don't really know you yet.
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That wasn't self pity, that was just playful mock crying. People are free to dislike me, but I hope they learn to love me. :laugh:
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If anyone was trolling it was your good friend Kayleigh. My reply fitted the context beautifully I think and I think that the only one who thinks different is you.
1. n.
an ugly person; a grouchy person. : Gee, that dame is a real troll. What's her problem?
2. n.
an internet user who sends inflammatory or provocative messages designed to elicit negative responses or start a flame-war. (As a fisherman trolls for an unsuspecting fish.) : Don't answer those silly messages. Some troll is just looking for an argument.
3. n.
a message sent by a troll (sense 2). : Every time I get a troll, I just delete it.
Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions by Richard A. Spears.Fourth Edition.
Copyright 2007. Published by McGraw Hill.
You both can be said to be trolling. But Kayleigh was ranting and preaching. Your 'fuck off Kayleigh' replies were made to upset her into leaving. You are free to disagree with my use of the word, but it is a fair use of the word.
Both could be said? Not at all. You know what is strange? You were inferring that which came after the "Fuck off Kayleigh" replies was trolling and quoted it and had me back my claim on it and now you move the boundaries to the "fuck off Kayleigh replies" themselves. Is that you argument "style"? if on a pitiful point try to change the goalposts or the boundaries and assert new rules? Were someone to try to do that in any game there would be a word for that kind of playing.
That said....let's look at this NEW argument and humour you.
2. n.
an internet user who sends inflammatory or provocative messages designed to elicit negative responses or start a flame-war. (As a fisherman trolls for an unsuspecting fish.) : Don't answer those silly messages. Some troll is just looking for an argument.
Does this equate under any reading to a member of a forum coming in railing against all the membership falsely and emotively as being transphobic and insulting their forum, and preaching how they must behave with them.....kinda huh? OK that is GA.
Next
Is a response from the forum at large and by as large being faced, with this non-contributing, inflammatory poster, in telling him to fuck off and stop their inflammatory remark trolling him or simply reacting and defending against the bigoted, self-righteous blowhard? If that is what they and i am doing then no your definition is not trolling. Even under the loosest definition the "provocative messages designed to elicit negative responses or start a flame-war" would at best become ""provocative messages designed to elicit a pompous buffoon to indeed fuck off and stop clogging up respectable threads with his idiocy"
Now you made what "may" seem like a decent argument in the "If they don't use "the right" pronouns, then they are cissexist. as it is "infraction-worthy. The act of doing do makes them cis-sexist." (Paraphrased)
However under any reasonable scrutiny this falls down doesn't it?
"If they don't use a prescribe set of pronouns =/= they think transgendered people are inferior"
No it simply doesn't mean that at all. People could use pronouns other than what you prescribe and not think any the less of transgendered people, nor think them inferior.
Are those people cis-sexist?
botty-burp is all about cissexual/cisgender priveledge. I'm sure Kayleigh has posted it before but I can't blame you for not wanting to read it. The difference between botty-burp and transphobia is like the difference between heterosexism and homophobia, or maybe sexism and misogyny/misandry. It's generally about pettier things and the difference in how the other side is treated more favourably. Compare it to white priveledge or male priveledge or whatever. If a cisperson has their gender identity respected but a transperson doesn't, they are being treated inferior to a cisperson. Ignorance or apathy isn't an excuse. There are plenty of people don't think black people are inferior to white people, but they still avoid black people and favor white people. If you've ever watched the italian movie Black and White/Bianco e nero, it had a father proclaimed to like black people but in truth only fetishized black females. Actions kind of speak louder than words and thoughts. And it's not like it's an over-all bad trait. But it's offensive to some people. And in calling some people cissexist, I only mean to point out offensive behavior.
"And in calling some people cissexist, I only mean to point out offensive behavior" It really doesn't matter "what you want to do" it is the claims you make that I am calling you on in as much as you call me and others here.
"Compare it to white priveledge or male priveledge or whatever". OK I looked at you examples to compare
"they still avoid black people and favor white people" We are not avoiding black people or transgender people.
"it had a father proclaimed to like black people but in truth only fetishized black females" We are not fetishising black women or transgender people.
YOU are still not making yourself clear.
Your kind of attitude always interests me. You insert yourself somewhere to take part in a discussion that has nothing to do with you, and now that you are here you will persist until you have shown everyone the light and changed the world. I usually only see this behavior coming from evangelical Christians.
Are you here on God's authority to bring light to the wicked and save the sinners?
Are you here out of a duty to humanity to make sure all the spazzes are shown the proper way of thinking?
Or are you here out of an overblown sense of self-importance, and because you literally cannot conceive of a conversation in which your enlightened viewpoint should not be held at highest center?
I'm pretty sure it's typical human judging, like the type you're casting on me. I'm not trying to make anyone change their views, I'm just using a word on people that describes their behavior. I could make up a word called Spoonrape and say that it perfectly describes what kind of person you are. Basically, I say you're being offensive and then you say 'whatever' and then we continue with our lives.
I'm just critical and like to argue with people about whatever. I don't try to tell people how to live their lives. I don't even have a reason to live, I just do whatever I want.
You are using a word (cis-sexist) that infers a defined moral and valued judgement and that is that the bearer of such a label (cisexist) views transpeople as inferior. Then you say "I could make up a word called Spoonrape and say that it perfectly describes what kind of person you are.". We are not disagreeing with a word YOU made up are we but rather one in existence used to describe that people that believe transpeople are inferior. You used it and now say "Oh it is just a word" No.
"I'm just using a word on people that describes their behavior" - Sorry this is a cop out. Someone either views people as inferior or they don't. They may be grouchy, mean-spirited, insulting or offensive but that does not mean that they view a community of people (transpeople) as inferior and the word (cis-sexism and its derivative cis-seixist) you have made at people here is defined to mean exactly this.
Try again, and this time please back your shit up. (Oh and keep your spoonrape to yourself.)
I know you aren't arguing with me. It's mostly Swearengen who likes this topic.
If your intention is to stick around until Al stops arguing with you, then :welcome: to I2. I hope you brought extra clothes and something comfortable to sit on. You aren't ever leaving.
Ever.
Oh shit yes. You got that right.
IN fact I am in mixed minds. I think Rissy could survive a callout and is not that new. The other thing probably more pressing is it is Rissy's birthday soon. What date, Rissy? I ought to start a birthday thread. :angel:
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Then start backing up your shit.
What do you want backed up? You have to specify which statements you weren't satisfied with?
Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
A word of advice: don't choose the puppet line of defence re altering the brain because it will make you look daft.
Of course, Al's been asking you to back up the claims you made re trolling and whatnot, and you haven't been doing any of that either.
Mainly, why would you get to define those pronouns when your ideas are based on those of a very small minority?
Don't tl;dr my posts then. I have backed up claims from from Swearengen, it's up to him to flaw my last attempt and if you want to challenge them, you should critique them yourself.
You still have not backed your shit up,so don't try to make believe that this is a last attempt, and infer you have done it now and other times preceding. You simply have not done so at all yet. If you were trying, you have done a poor job. People must eat you alive IRL.
Poor bastard.
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GA's IRL friend. Rissy says close friend; GA says not so close.
When did I say I was a close friend?
I thought that you said it earlier in this thread, but I double checked and I was mistaken. You actually said random IRL friend, not close IRL friend.
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
I think I would rather be called Dr Al Swearengen Esquire in addressing me from here on Kaleigh and Rissy. Do this and I will happily call you both she
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
I think I would rather be called Dr Al Swearengen Esquire in addressing me from here on Kaleigh and Rissy. Do this and I will happily call you both she
Would DASE suffice? :zoinks:
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
I think I would rather be called Dr Al Swearengen Esquire in addressing me from here on Kaleigh and Rissy. Do this and I will happily call you both she
Would DASE suffice? :zoinks:
I know you though and are comfortable with you, so you can call me fucktard and I won't be mortally offended.
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Pronouns are used along gender lines, not sexes.
http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html
http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm
In terms of non-binary genders there are gender neutral pronoun neologisms. Which I don't personally like or agree with, but if someone asked me to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns I'd do me best.
Considering how old these are, it's pretty obvious that they are not catching on. This thread is the first I have heard of them.
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For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
I disagree, but I don't have the evidence to support me at this point.
Where do those who can't reproduce fall? Are they neither man nor woman? Your definitions and expectations are narrow, and thus follows your mind.
As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.
You'll have to explain that one to me.
You are trying to force me to use your definitions, or else I am being disrespectful. I know, I know, you aren't literally "forcing" me, but if I insist on the "he" as defined on basic human biology and not some 5-sex theory from an early nineties essay or whatever, or because that's how you feel now, it is me being disrespectful.
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Then start backing up your shit.
What do you want backed up? You have to specify which statements you weren't satisfied with?
Where to begin... Read the post I made, the one that sent GA into orbit, and tell me exactly how I am seeing transgendered people as inferior to those who aren't simply because I refuse to allow them to redefine what a woman (in GA's case) or a man is. You might also want to explain how I am being disrespectful by not blindly accepting the pronouns you are attempting to shove down in our throats, just because it makes you feel better but me like telling the sky is pink when it is blue. Following the same logic, tell me why you aren't being disrespectful to me for wanting me to go against the definitions I feel match the world I can observe.
A word of advice: don't choose the puppet line of defence re altering the brain because it will make you look daft.
Of course, Al's been asking you to back up the claims you made re trolling and whatnot, and you haven't been doing any of that either.
Mainly, why would you get to define those pronouns when your ideas are based on those of a very small minority?
Don't tl;dr my posts then. I have backed up claims from from Swearengen, it's up to him to flaw my last attempt and if you want to challenge them, you should critique them yourself.
With all due respect, GA is not a woman. He is someone who would like to be one, sure, but that alone does not a woman make. It's not right for people in his situation, nor those sympathetic to them, to hijack the definition just because they want it. Come up with another term, because this one is already consistently defined.
The word wasn't hijacked, it was adapted, and since you object to anything but binary genders as you said earlier, you're giving nothing them. Language changes and new words and made and defined. It's not like there isn't there isn't words with multiple dictionary meaning.
Call me a bad person if you want to, but I am mostly indifferent to the plights of these people. Live and let live, and all that. I will say this, however: I don't have anything per se against the transgendered, but I will also not abuse vocabulary and definitions I see as very well defined as well as reasonably fundamental to human reproductive biology and our society in general.
That is an opinion and a selfish view of yours. You're entitled to it but it's not an argument.
You are being cissexist because you deny transpeoples' gender identity while respecting cispeoples' gender identity. It's minor, but you're still treating them inferior and with disrespect. Some people are against gay marriage without thinking gay people are inferior, they just have a selfish view that gay people shouldn't be allowed to. You can call me disrespectful for not observing your ideas of how everything should be, but so can a nazi. We can both say we don't care about the label thrust upon us. I'm only arguing that your behavior is cissexist, I don't expect you to change your views. If I attack your views, it's for the sake of argument and not because I'm forcing you to accept stuff. If you can object to the use of pronouns by transpeople, I can object to your opinion.
The contributions and the concerns of minorities shouldn't be treated as inferior. Things change. People fight for stuff and get it.
The sky can be pink at one point of the day anyway.
Nazi?
I think there are internet laws explaining what happens to a discussion once the word "nazi" comes up as an argument. Godwin ring a bell to you?
The thing with my views is that they are not just opinions, I have hundreds of years of evolutionary science backing me up. You don't.
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Nazi?
I think there are internet laws explaining what happens to a discussion once the word "nazi" comes up as an argument. Godwin ring a bell to you?
The thing with my views is that they are not just opinions, I have hundreds of years of evolutionary science backing me up. You don't.
I'm not calling you a Nazi. I'm saying that anyone can call anyone disrespectful just because they disagree with their views. Even full-out racists. You wanted to highlight that I was being disrespectful too, but that's not an excuse. Of course some people have opposing views, that's life and Kayleigh shouldn't be trying to make you have her point of view. I'm arguing with your argument though. Picking at it to better understand you. This is just chatting to me and I'm exploring your views. Stop putting me in the same category as Kayleigh, I'm not here to preach, I'm only annoyingly critical. I don't expect to change your views and I'm not trying to.
Language has nothing to do with evolution by the way. Language is only applied to things. And it has a habit of changing. You're not speaking old english right now, so you've obviously accepted some changes to the language. And just like religious people pick and choose from the bible, you pick and choose the word definitions you like and reject. This isn't a science argument. It's about language and social issues.
As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
For someone who suggest he's objective and scientific, you sure show signs of divine judgements on what is supposed to be. You didn't answer me about the 'reasons humans are here'. Your evidence supports biological classifications, but not social classifications. The issue is social and about the use of language. Besides, it would be more objective and scientific to be more elaborate in classifying things. It's not very good for distinguishing things. And while human reproduction makes sense, the need and importance of reproduction is simply ego. Society is a cultural environment, not an orgy.
Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
Well there are individuals who wish to be neuter or bigendered. Most don't use the pronoun 'it', but some do. Pronouns are a personal thing after all, it's used in place of a name. I know you're teasing, but that point is relevant. I suppose I could call Dr Al Swearengen Esquire, Dr Al Swearengen Esquire if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire wants, but then I want my pronoun to be Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust. Do you agree to that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire?
The thing with gender pronouns is that they're already commonly used and they're not so obnoxious to type out or pronounce. And transpeople tell other people what pronoun they want them to use. Using something else is rude and disrespectful. Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon dispute that it isn't botty-burp but cispeople naturally get their choice of gender pronoun respected but transpeople are denied that privilege by some. Treating someone as inferior says more about an individual than thinking they are inferior. If Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon hold the view that they shouldn't be allowed to use their choice of pronoun then Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon consider Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and odeon's views as superior to the respect of transpeople. In reality everyone is disrespectful and consider themselves superior to others in some way.
By last attempt I meant the last reply I made. I wasn't implying that I wasn't going continue rephrasing it for Dr Al Swearengen Esquire. It is possible to troll trolls back. And I already pointed out that the word can be applied to Kayleigh. It does not change the fact that it can also be applied to Dr Al Swearengen Esquire. I was highlighting that section because it's where Dr Al Swearengen Esquire revealed Dr Al Swearengen Esquire's motivation for Dr Al Swearengen Esquire's actions. Dr Al Swearengen Esquire and others were using male pronouns on Kayleigh not necessarily through lack of disrespect to transpeople but to insult and provoke Kayleigh and provoke me since Dr Al Swearengen Esquire pictured me as a white knight. The main example is in reply to Kayleigh because it was all about making her rage quit and such. People can still troll with truth and facts. The fact that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire was attacking her gender instead of her obnoxious traits highlight the fact that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire was not really being serious with her and only wanted to upset her. I was implying that Dr Al Swearengen Esquire wasn't being serious and just being hostile. I admit some of it was due to me misinterpreting Dr Al Swearengen Esquire's posts because Dr Al Swearengen Esquire arguments looked like trollbait. It's hard to tell if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire is serious or if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire is just playing with me. In some way it is true that everyone here is playing with me because I'm a target. But I know that and are looking for serious or interesting topics to be baited by. Although, if I have a target on my head that must mean people do want to troll me. ;)
"And in calling some people cissexist, I only mean to point out offensive behavior"[/i] It really doesn't matter "what you want to do" it is the claims you make that I am calling you on in as much as you call me and others here.
"Compare it to white priveledge or male priveledge or whatever". OK I looked at you examples to compare
"they still avoid black people and favor white people" We are not avoiding black people or transgender people.
"it had a father proclaimed to like black people but in truth only fetishized black females" We are not fetishising black women or transgender people.
YOU are still not making yourself clear.
Some people are avoiding respecting transpeople, and I'm comparing it to similar examples. Tell me if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire thinks avoiding black people isn't treating them as inferior to white people. Tell me if Dr Al Swearengen Esquire thinks fetishising black people is treating them as equals. I said earlier that with transpeople, it's about respecting their gender indentity and right to choose which pronouns to use. Since they're already in use it's not hard to use them. If the pronoun is derogatory to an individual then the person using the pronoun is being disrespectful. Showing disrespect for the sake of a selfish personal view is obviously your own sense of superiority. Respect is a selfish request to make, but so is disrespect. Obviously some people you don't want to give respect to. But some forms of disrespect to an individual can upset a group by comparison. The members who I'm calling cissexist are the ones who wish to deny people their choice of gender pronoun. Maybe that can be considered cisgenderism because it includes random gender variants. But keeping to the topic of botty-burp, a transperson should be able to have a choice of gender pronoun because cispeople have the choice which they take for granted.
I know I'll never 'win' against Dr Al Swearengen Esquire, I just enjoy participating here. I like the 'Part of the Chaos' title, and my birthday is the 4th ;)
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:raining: :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining: :raining:
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I want my pronoun to be Tentacle Queen
I'm afraid that title is already taken ;) :lol:
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Oh hell I was really avoiding this because you seemed so full of spirit and enthusiasm and were new and I was hoping you would be able to back yourself.
I ran out of excuses.
You made quite a few calls again me and my motivations and my values and despite much gentle persuasion to back yourself, simply have not
Step in this thread and let's talk
http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17358.0.html
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
:laugh:
I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short. To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
:laugh:
I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short. To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.
Seeing as you are female wouldn't the term be "Mistress" ? :orly:
Or does that only apply to a dominatrix? :laugh:
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
:laugh:
I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short. To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.
Seeing as you are female wouldn't the term be "Mistress" ? :orly:
Or does that only apply to a dominatrix? :laugh:
:plus:
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Okay, everyone, refer to me as an "it" now or I'll bitch at how you're all objectist bigots and try to lecture and shame you into respecting my desired pronoun, instead of providing a reasonable counter-argument to your objections! >:(
That is an example of obvious trolling/fucktardism of course. :zoinks:
:laugh:
I have a Master's degree, so I want everyone, especially GA and Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust to call me Master Callaway or Callaway, MS for short. To do otherwise is showing disrespect for all people with graduate degrees and if anyone refuses to call me either Master Callaway or Callaway, MS or if they slip up, I'm going to rage at them and/or bombard them with a lot of PC words and links about the difficulties of graduate school.
Seeing as you are female wouldn't the term be "Mistress" ? :orly:
Or does that only apply to a dominatrix? :laugh:
:plus:
so is "Mistress Callaway" your preferred pronoun? :zoinks:
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Nazi?
I think there are internet laws explaining what happens to a discussion once the word "nazi" comes up as an argument. Godwin ring a bell to you?
The thing with my views is that they are not just opinions, I have hundreds of years of evolutionary science backing me up. You don't.
I'm not calling you a Nazi.
You don't have to. Godwin's Law (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw):
/prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.
A little further down on that page:
More precisely, the subsequent value of the thread is zero. It may be continued anyway - some people will put great effort into explaining why the analogy between Nazis and whatever is annoying them is, on this occasion, fully justified and illuminating. And other people will patiently explain why it isn't and why such comparisons are demeaning to those involved in either event.
You lose.
I'm saying that anyone can call anyone disrespectful just because they disagree with their views. Even full-out racists. You wanted to highlight that I was being disrespectful too, but that's not an excuse. Of course some people have opposing views, that's life and Kayleigh shouldn't be trying to make you have her point of view. I'm arguing with your argument though. Picking at it to better understand you. This is just chatting to me and I'm exploring your views. Stop putting me in the same category as Kayleigh, I'm not here to preach,
:LMAO:
I'm only annoyingly critical. I don't expect to change your views and I'm not trying to.
Language has nothing to do with evolution by the way. Language is only applied to things. And it has a habit of changing. You're not speaking old english right now, so you've obviously accepted some changes to the language. And just like religious people pick and choose from the bible, you pick and choose the word definitions you like and reject. This isn't a science argument. It's about language and social issues.
Language changes, sure, but only when there is a need, not because a select few wish it to change. You'd have a better shot at it by being a sports journalist.
Also, when on the topic of science and objective evaluation, it is important to use an unambiguous language to the extent possible. The definitions I choose to follow are well established and have a firm foundation in science. Can you imagine what a biology class would be like if we were to follow your (lack of) definitions?
When discussing science, language is an important tool. I take it you are not dealing with either professionally on a daily basis?
As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
For someone who suggest he's objective and scientific, you sure show signs of divine judgements on what is supposed to be. You didn't answer me about the 'reasons humans are here'.
I quote:
For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
"Sorry, Odeon, I was wrong."
"It's OK. You are new, after all."
Your evidence supports biological classifications, but not social classifications. The issue is social and about the use of language. Besides, it would be more objective and scientific to be more elaborate in classifying things. It's not very good for distinguishing things. And while human reproduction makes sense, the need and importance of reproduction is simply ego. Society is a cultural environment, not an orgy.
On the contrary, the definitions I use are excellent for what they are for, recognising and detailing the human race. They are quite objective--there is no hidden agenda for science to study and describe human biology. The terminology used is there to be objective and unambiguous, to allow us to discuss the subject. If you want to discuss sociology, come up with terms suited for the purpose, but for this, as you say, human reproduction makes sense.
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On the contrary, the definitions I use are excellent for what they are for, recognising and detailing the human race. They are quite objective--there is no hidden agenda for science to study and describe human biology. The terminology used is there to be objective and unambiguous, to allow us to discuss the subject. If you want to discuss sociology, come up with terms suited for the purpose, but for this, as you say, human reproduction makes sense.
So what do you do about hermaphrodites? As I'm sure you know, for a considerable part of the last century, doctors would lop the male parts off and raise the baby female, for no reason other than it was more surgically feasible. That's not hundreds of years of evolutionary science, that's convenience. Doctors and scientists can be as wrong as any other human beings. If those babies later rebelled and decided to live as men, would you hold the same ridiculous antiquated views and insist on calling them female?
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Too many if's, Pyraxis. And "Doctors and scientists can be as wrong as any other human beings" is the kind of a non-argument that doesn't actually mean anything but sounds good when you aren't sure of what to say but feel you have to post.
But I think I already explained my stance in previous posts. The subject of hermaphrodites in my mind is really yet another take on what can happen *after* nature did its thing. There are lots of other things you can do surgically, all of which are largely irrelevant to the definitions I'm talking about, as are the many parenting experiments altering the minds of children.
If Mowgli was real, would he be a wolf?
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Ok fine, I'll go back and reread, but quit squirming. Genetic chimeras happen. How is that *after* nature did its thing? It happens during fetal development.
My point about the surgery is to counter yours here:
I refer to GA as a "he" because a) I first learned who he was when he was most definitely a he, and b) because I'm mostly indifferent and habits kick in.
As in, first learned impression can be inaccurate and the case with the surgery is one such example.
Also because later, you started going on about how your views on the gender binary were backed by centuries of science, unlike those of trans people. Science is constantly evolving and theories are constantly being revised. What kind of studies and evidence would you require in order to be convinced that your paradigm could use some revision?
If Mowgli was born a human and socialized as a wolf, I would consider that both had influenced his development. If I were treating him medically, I would use human medicine. If I were communicating with him, I would use wolf body language. What's your point?
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Ok fine, I'll go back and reread, but quit squirming. Genetic chimeras happen. How is that *after* nature did its thing? It happens during fetal development.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't chimerism in humans a kind of a mixture of both sexes, with the signs being anything from "hitchhiker's thumb" in one hand and a "normal" in the other, to ambiguous genitalia? IMO it is one of the cases where nature had problems along the way, something I have mentioned in earlier posts. I would think that with chimerism exact terminology is more important than ever, and the 5-way thing GA offered a couple of posts back wouldn't make explaining chimerism easier at all. Not sure it would even be relevant, tbh.
I fail to see why chimerism is relevant here. If I've read up correctly on the subject, transgenderism is not about chimerism at all. There aren't any detectable signs, nothing like an erring chromosome, no ambiguous genitalia, nothing like that.
What pronouns are used for chimeras? As I understand, the majority of chimeras go through life without ever realising what they are. The pronoun used is the one defined at birth, I should think. As for the cases where it's not clear, I don't know. I'm interested in finding out .
My point about the surgery is to counter yours here:
I refer to GA as a "he" because a) I first learned who he was when he was most definitely a he, and b) because I'm mostly indifferent and habits kick in.
As in, first learned impression can be inaccurate and the case with the surgery is one such example.
With GA, it wasn't just a first impression. Far from it.
Also because later, you started going on about how your views on the gender binary were backed by centuries of science, unlike those of trans people. Science is constantly evolving and theories are constantly being revised. What kind of studies and evidence would you require in order to be convinced that your paradigm could use some revision?
It's not my paradigm. It's a set of definitions that are handy and necessary for explaining human biology (including chimerism, btw). If science was to arrive at a conclusion where they could reasonably show the likelihood and necessity of some other system than binarism in human biology, I would certainly listen and perhaps change my stance. As things stand, I haven't seen it.
I fail to see how changing the terminology that is essentially a biological reality to accommodate for a social minority can ever be a good idea. IMO, adding to it is better from a scientific point of view.
If Mowgli was born a human and socialized as a wolf, I would consider that both had influenced his development. If I were treating him medically, I would use human medicine. If I were communicating with him, I would use wolf body language. What's your point?
My point was made in reference to yours about hermaphrodites and raising the baby as a female after chopping off body parts. The baby would still be male but a mutilated and abused one.
I notice that you avoided labelling Mowgli, though. What would he be? Wolf or human?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't chimerism in humans a kind of a mixture of both sexes, with the signs being anything from "hitchhiker's thumb" in one hand and a "normal" in the other, to ambiguous genitalia? IMO it is one of the cases where nature had problems along the way, something I have mentioned in earlier posts. I would think that with chimerism exact terminology is more important than ever, and the 5-way thing GA offered a couple of posts back wouldn't make explaining chimerism easier at all. Not sure it would even be relevant, tbh.
In your posts here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg752017.html#msg752017) and here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg752024.html#msg752024) you simplify it as people being "born to" one gender or the other - either that or something "psychologically" went wrong. But you don't account for the possibility that one's feeling of self-identification might be the first indication of an abnormality. Here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg752293.html#msg752293) you say your problem is with giving people special treatment, here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg753193.html#msg753193) you say it's because it takes a conscious effort, but here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg753203.html#msg753203) you say you don't hate groups, you hate individuals. So, what, you won't expend conscious effort on special treatment unless it's special hatred? :zoinks:
But seriously, my problem was with the bits later on when you started saying that trans people were trying to shove pronouns down your throat and you refused to redefine what a man and a woman were. That hundreds of years of evolutionary science backed up your position, and that intentions (who's intentions? Mother nature's? God's?) were what defined the result. I don't think calling people herms, merms and ferms is the answer either, but - what are you worried about? That somebody like GA would flipflop and want to be called a male one day, a female the next, male the next, and back to female again? I get that that would be ridiculous, but since a transition is a once-off, I don't see the big deal.
I fail to see why chimerism is relevant here. If I've read up correctly on the subject, transgenderism is not about chimerism at all. There aren't any detectable signs, nothing like an erring chromosome, no ambiguous genitalia, nothing like that.
How many of the people exploring transgenderism have actually had their sex chromosomes tested? Has GA? I don't think people should have to provide genetic test results before asking people to refer to them by their identified gender. Besides, even that wouldn't account for cases of XX males (http://priory.com/med/xx.htm) and XY females. True, there are cases where there's no obvious physiological basis. But I don't see any good reason not to accept a person's self-identification. In ten years, if Kayleigh had fully transitioned and was using a female identity everywhere, would you still insist on clinging to your first impression and calling her a male because she was unable to have a baby?
What pronouns are used for chimeras? As I understand, the majority of chimeras go through life without ever realising what they are. The pronoun used is the one defined at birth, I should think. As for the cases where it's not clear, I don't know. I'm interested in finding out.
I don't know a set of official rules. The Intersex Society of North America recommends that a baby be given a gender assignment at birth, whichever is more likely, but no corrective surgery. They don't recommend that a child be raised as a "third gender", but to give them honest and accurate information about their condition, so that when they're old enough, they can decide which gender they want to be.
With GA, it wasn't just a first impression. Far from it.
Have you considered how difficult it is to change social conditioning that's been instilled since birth? Of course GA used to exhibit masculine traits, and now as Kayleigh she is working to reprogram her brain to overcome the training and act in a way more aligned with her natural self. If you're having difficulty revising your mental concept, that task is exponentially more difficult from the inside. Not something to be undertaken on a whim, and an ongoing process.
It's not my paradigm. It's a set of definitions that are handy and necessary for explaining human biology (including chimerism, btw). If science was to arrive at a conclusion where they could reasonably show the likelihood and necessity of some other system than binarism in human biology, I would certainly listen and perhaps change my stance. As things stand, I haven't seen it.
Here (http://www.isna.org/articles/howwrongiwas) is an excellent article about transgender and intersex treatment done in the name of social normalization. It violates patients' medical rights, including lying and withholding critical information from patients and their parents, and doing unnecessary surgery on functioning sexual organs before a patient is old enough to consent. The reasoning is that it's in people's best interests to be forced to conform to the binary system, but the suicide rates of patients say otherwise.
Not directly related, but for curiosity's sake, here (http://www.katewerk.com/chimera.html) is an article about a woman who needed a kidney transplant and the results of the tissue-matching test told her she was not the mother of two of her biological sons. It took them ten years to figure it out - the binary system was not a heck of a lot of help.
I fail to see how changing the terminology that is essentially a biological reality to accommodate for a social minority can ever be a good idea. IMO, adding to it is better from a scientific point of view.
It's not a biological reality. Here is a list (http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency) of the frequency of various intersex conditions. If you don't want to change the terminology of "he/she" and "his/hers", are you in favor of "zie" and "zer"? (FWIW some of the trans people I know prefer those pronouns and some think they sound stupid.)
My point was made in reference to yours about hermaphrodites and raising the baby as a female after chopping off body parts. The baby would still be male but a mutilated and abused one.
I notice that you avoided labelling Mowgli, though. What would he be? Wolf or human?
Why must I simplify it to an inaccurate binary? To say he was wolf would belie the biological reality - though I would do it if I were talking to somebody who understood identity on the symbolic level, ie in a spiritual discussion (I agree with what you said in the other thread about the treatment of trans people on I2 vs the treatment of religious people). To say he was human would presuppose a lot of extra behaviors that he wouldn't have. I wouldn't do it if I were dealing with someone who would mistreat him based on sloppy thinking and false expectations.
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GA did have her sex chromosomes tested and they turned out XY.
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For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
I disagree, but I don't have the evidence to support me at this point.
Where do those who can't reproduce fall? Are they neither man nor woman? Your definitions and expectations are narrow, and thus follows your mind.
As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
The English language is notorious for being less than perfectly adequate in describing how things are.
But how come I am not to fall into the "mistakes" category? I have a female mind, but a male body. And there is a move to define transsexuality in the same category at intersex,
both from professionals,
http://oiiaustralia.com/media/articles/transsexuals-intersexed-individuals/
and others,
http://www.thescavenger.net/isgd/trans-as-intersex-crossing-the-line-56934.html
If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.
You'll have to explain that one to me.
You are trying to force me to use your definitions, or else I am being disrespectful. I know, I know, you aren't literally "forcing" me, but if I insist on the "he" as defined on basic human biology and not some 5-sex theory from an early nineties essay or whatever, or because that's how you feel now, it is me being disrespectful.
There is two arguments here;
Definitions and Pronouns.
Human biology is anything but basic. And we all know that there is no such thing as normal, this is especially so in biology. There are binary categories based on human reproductive organs. And while gender is mental and sex is physical, our perceptions of gender often take their cues from the sex. The pronouns we use are based largely on perception of gender and social interaction. Most people currently perceive me as female and socialise as such.
I feel you're being disrespectful of me when you misgender me in the way you have because it is essentially stripping me of my mental identity. Who I am, and who I see myself to be. When you call me he and refer to me as male, you're essentially saying that how I view myself is wrong. And that really hurts.
I know it can be hard for non-trans people to understand, my parents have a hard time with it, but being trans isn't a decision. I didn't decided to be a girl. I am a girl, I was just born with the wrong biology. Science doesn't currently fully understand how it happens, but there is some talk of it being wrong hormones whilst in the womb, or some sort of genetic trigger. I don't really know. All I do know is that I am a girl. When I was trying to male it was such a shallow hollow existence, and now I feel full of life, actually alive. So to call me male is to say that I should go back to that hollow existence, and that being a girl, being alive is wrong.
That hurts, and it's disrespects me and my right to live a full and happy life.
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How the fuck does it hurt you? You could *easily* ignore this and live in your protective bubble of naive happyness by you know, going off the internet?
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How the fuck does it hurt you? You could *easily* ignore this and live in your protective bubble of naive happyness by you know, going off the internet?
THE INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!
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It is until you plug out the modem and actually have a life. :zoinks:
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It is until you plug out the modem and actually have a life. :zoinks:
What is this thing you call... a life? Is it a new video game? :zoinks:
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The best MMO in the world, in fact.
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The best MMO in the world, in fact.
Shit, that game? It's alright, but it has no reset when you die or fuck up so badly. They really need to add that as a new feature.
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^Yes it has those disadvantages but the graphics are excellent.
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^Yes it has those disadvantages but the graphics are excellent.
Not to mention, the gameplay is exceptional in quality, you can literally do anything as long as you respect the game physics. But no hax is yet to found to violate the physics of it.
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For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
I disagree, but I don't have the evidence to support me at this point.
Where do those who can't reproduce fall? Are they neither man nor woman? Your definitions and expectations are narrow, and thus follows your mind.
As I tried to explain earlier, mistakes happen all the time when nature does its thing. I would say that the intentions are what define the result, not the result itself. They aren't my definitions, though. It's basic human biology and thus I do have the evidence supporting my views. It's all over teh interwebs if you care to look.
The English language is notorious for being less than perfectly adequate in describing how things are.
But how come I am not to fall into the "mistakes" category? I have a female mind, but a male body. And there is a move to define transsexuality in the same category at intersex,
both from professionals,
http://oiiaustralia.com/media/articles/transsexuals-intersexed-individuals/
and others,
http://www.thescavenger.net/isgd/trans-as-intersex-crossing-the-line-56934.html
If you think that is disrespectful then the same will apply equally to you.
You'll have to explain that one to me.
You are trying to force me to use your definitions, or else I am being disrespectful. I know, I know, you aren't literally "forcing" me, but if I insist on the "he" as defined on basic human biology and not some 5-sex theory from an early nineties essay or whatever, or because that's how you feel now, it is me being disrespectful.
There is two arguments here;
Definitions and Pronouns.
Human biology is anything but basic. And we all know that there is no such thing as normal, this is especially so in biology. There are binary categories based on human reproductive organs. And while gender is mental and sex is physical, our perceptions of gender often take their cues from the sex. The pronouns we use are based largely on perception of gender and social interaction. Most people currently perceive me as female and socialise as such.
I feel you're being disrespectful of me when you misgender me in the way you have because it is essentially stripping me of my mental identity. Who I am, and who I see myself to be. When you call me he and refer to me as male, you're essentially saying that how I view myself is wrong. And that really hurts.
I know it can be hard for non-trans people to understand, my parents have a hard time with it, but being trans isn't a decision. I didn't decided to be a girl. I am a girl, I was just born with the wrong biology. Science doesn't currently fully understand how it happens, but there is some talk of it being wrong hormones whilst in the womb, or some sort of genetic trigger. I don't really know. All I do know is that I am a girl. When I was trying to male it was such a shallow hollow existence, and now I feel full of life, actually alive. So to call me male is to say that I should go back to that hollow existence, and that being a girl, being alive is wrong.
That hurts, and it's disrespects me and my right to live a full and happy life.
I have two questions.
First, when the fuck are you actually going? It was six days what feels like 10 days ago. I know this is not completely right and time has been dragging with your every post. But seriously how long are you going to be entertaining us with your mindless waffle.
Secondly, If i was to say I "felt" like a Pygmy and even though I was not born that way nor had any genetic predisposition, but "felt it", would I actually be feeling like a Pygmy or just my understanding (obviously limited) as to what a Pygmy ought to feel like?
When you talk about being mentally a girl, are you in fact saying that your brain is already wired in and set as a girl's brain and your body is all set as male. Or are you saying that you have only got what your concept of what a girl is and identify with that concept which may or may not actually be the same thing?
How would you actually know one way or another?
Let's go another step further. If you were mistakenly under the assumption that your identification was in fact because you were a girl in a man's body but it came to light that your identification was not actually of the concept of girl but rather a misguided and ill-informed concept of what a girl was then would demanding someone call you a she or a woman actually be correct or not? Would it be respectful.
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^Yes it has those disadvantages but the graphics are excellent.
Not to mention, the gameplay is exceptional in quality, you can literally do anything as long as you respect the game physics. But no hax is yet to found to violate the physics of it.
The only thing lacking is music in the background and cool sound effects.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't chimerism in humans a kind of a mixture of both sexes, with the signs being anything from "hitchhiker's thumb" in one hand and a "normal" in the other, to ambiguous genitalia? IMO it is one of the cases where nature had problems along the way, something I have mentioned in earlier posts. I would think that with chimerism exact terminology is more important than ever, and the 5-way thing GA offered a couple of posts back wouldn't make explaining chimerism easier at all. Not sure it would even be relevant, tbh.
In your posts here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg752017.html#msg752017) and here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg752024.html#msg752024) you simplify it as people being "born to" one gender or the other - either that or something "psychologically" went wrong. But you don't account for the possibility that one's feeling of self-identification might be the first indication of an abnormality. Here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg752293.html#msg752293) you say your problem is with giving people special treatment, here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg753193.html#msg753193) you say it's because it takes a conscious effort, but here (http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17306.msg753203.html#msg753203) you say you don't hate groups, you hate individuals. So, what, you won't expend conscious effort on special treatment unless it's special hatred? :zoinks:
My post about individuals was a bit tongue-in-cheek but above all made in a context, and others (Soph?) called me out on it, and quite fairly at that because groups such as Nazis provided me enough thought to see that I posted that one without thinking it through. The special treatment comment was specifically made in reference to not being allowed to joke about trans people, something that I believe was clear in my post and the context in which it was posted. In no way does it defeat my basic approach, about conscious effort.
I don't specifically account for one's feelings being the first sign of a problem, no, because I wasn't discussing chimerism or in any way detailing the causes of the problems. In other words, I wasn't talking about diagnosing problems.
Did you have a point with all this, Pyraxis, or were you just trying to make us follow links for fun? IMO I've made my stance very clear.
But seriously, my problem was with the bits later on when you started saying that trans people were trying to shove pronouns down your throat and you refused to redefine what a man and a woman were. That hundreds of years of evolutionary science backed up your position, and that intentions (who's intentions? Mother nature's? God's?)
I believe I have consistently used "nature".
were what defined the result. I don't think calling people herms, merms and ferms is the answer either, but - what are you worried about? That somebody like GA would flipflop and want to be called a male one day, a female the next, male the next, and back to female again? I get that that would be ridiculous, but since a transition is a once-off, I don't see the big deal.
No, I believe you don't. I do, however, because I am a firm believer in well-defined and consistent vocabulary, and what A et al are saying just isn't consistent. It's what they want, for all kinds of reasons, but it's not well-defined and it's not consistent. I'm saying that GA was born male and while he in later years has been working towards becoming a woman, that pronoun would, in my mind, not adequately describe the result because a "woman" is a "human female", biologically and genetically speaking, and that's not just the case.
It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
I fail to see why chimerism is relevant here. If I've read up correctly on the subject, transgenderism is not about chimerism at all. There aren't any detectable signs, nothing like an erring chromosome, no ambiguous genitalia, nothing like that.
How many of the people exploring transgenderism have actually had their sex chromosomes tested? Has GA?
See Ren's answer for GA.
As for the rest, you are missing part of my point. I am basically indifferent. If somebody I meet appears to be a woman and says she is, I am not going to require proof or doubt the statement or anything. I will accept it as a fact, according to the definitions I have outlined.
If, later, somebody shows that the woman in question is biologically a man, I would most likely remain indifferent and continue with the pronouns offered to me at that earlier point. I don't really care, see. My comments here are all about terminology and cases like GA's where I seem to be required to change my pronouns (that have been accepted and OK for years) or else I'm disrespectful and included in some fancy *new* definition using a word that I had to look up to know it exists in current urban terminology (but not, yet, in a printed dictionary).
You seem hell-bent on showing that I must have ulterior motives, that I'm really a bigot of some new and exciting definition, but I just don't think that is the case.
I don't think people should have to provide genetic test results before asking people to refer to them by their identified gender.
Neither do I. See above.
Besides, even that wouldn't account for cases of XX males (http://priory.com/med/xx.htm) and XY females. True, there are cases where there's no obvious physiological basis. But I don't see any good reason not to accept a person's self-identification. In ten years, if Kayleigh had fully transitioned and was using a female identity everywhere, would you still insist on clinging to your first impression and calling her a male because she was unable to have a baby?
I have already answered that, about GA specifically and about trans people in general.
What pronouns are used for chimeras? As I understand, the majority of chimeras go through life without ever realising what they are. The pronoun used is the one defined at birth, I should think. As for the cases where it's not clear, I don't know. I'm interested in finding out.
I don't know a set of official rules. The Intersex Society of North America recommends that a baby be given a gender assignment at birth, whichever is more likely, but no corrective surgery. They don't recommend that a child be raised as a "third gender", but to give them honest and accurate information about their condition, so that when they're old enough, they can decide which gender they want to be.
Your point?
With GA, it wasn't just a first impression. Far from it.
Have you considered how difficult it is to change social conditioning that's been instilled since birth? Of course GA used to exhibit masculine traits, and now as Kayleigh she is working to reprogram her brain to overcome the training and act in a way more aligned with her natural self. If you're having difficulty revising your mental concept, that task is exponentially more difficult from the inside. Not something to be undertaken on a whim, and an ongoing process.
Tell me why I should. What I'm talking about is an individual I learned to know on teh interwebs as a male, who identified himself as a male, and whose friends online identified him as a male. I used a set of pronouns when addressing him or talking about him, but there was no conscious effort on my part. Basically I was indifferent.
Why should I consider his plight later on, when I've already been told that I'm disrespectful and whatnot when I was simply continuing what I'd done earlier? Basically, it doesn't help if I'm called names.
I could also be discussing the individual's marriage but I don't really want to go there and I don't think you should either.
It's not my paradigm. It's a set of definitions that are handy and necessary for explaining human biology (including chimerism, btw). If science was to arrive at a conclusion where they could reasonably show the likelihood and necessity of some other system than binarism in human biology, I would certainly listen and perhaps change my stance. As things stand, I haven't seen it.
Here (http://www.isna.org/articles/howwrongiwas) is an excellent article about transgender and intersex treatment done in the name of social normalization. It violates patients' medical rights, including lying and withholding critical information from patients and their parents, and doing unnecessary surgery on functioning sexual organs before a patient is old enough to consent. The reasoning is that it's in people's best interests to be forced to conform to the binary system, but the suicide rates of patients say otherwise.
I am discussing a vocabulary, a terminology, that is consistent. I am in no way saying what anyone can or cannot do. Why do you think you link is relevant to what I am saying?
Not directly related, but for curiosity's sake, here (http://www.katewerk.com/chimera.html) is an article about a woman who needed a kidney transplant and the results of the tissue-matching test told her she was not the mother of two of her biological sons. It took them ten years to figure it out - the binary system was not a heck of a lot of help.
I fail to see how changing the terminology that is essentially a biological reality to accommodate for a social minority can ever be a good idea. IMO, adding to it is better from a scientific point of view.
It's not a biological reality. Here is a list (http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency) of the frequency of various intersex conditions. If you don't want to change the terminology of "he/she" and "his/hers", are you in favor of "zie" and "zer"? (FWIW some of the trans people I know prefer those pronouns and some think they sound stupid.)
I'm in favour of a well-defined terminology, whatever that may be.
My point was made in reference to yours about hermaphrodites and raising the baby as a female after chopping off body parts. The baby would still be male but a mutilated and abused one.
I notice that you avoided labelling Mowgli, though. What would he be? Wolf or human?
Why must I simplify it to an inaccurate binary? To say he was wolf would belie the biological reality - though I would do it if I were talking to somebody who understood identity on the symbolic level, ie in a spiritual discussion (I agree with what you said in the other thread about the treatment of trans people on I2 vs the treatment of religious people). To say he was human would presuppose a lot of extra behaviors that he wouldn't have. I wouldn't do it if I were dealing with someone who would mistreat him based on sloppy thinking and false expectations.
Because it is not inaccurate. It's not a spiritual discussion, simply a biological one. You are being PC, Pyraxis, and I have to say I'm a bit surprised.
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The English language is notorious for being less than perfectly adequate in describing how things are.
How lucky I am to speak quite a few others. You'd be happier in Finland.
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
I wouldn't rule it out, that's for sure.
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I guess my views on this is simply this.
If you are trans then Life is going to be fraught with difficulties. Difficulties not experienced by the average Joe Blow. I do not question the validity of this and do not contest it. It will be different to the difficulties that you face being an immigrant in a new country, being a person with an intellectual disability, being a gay, being a person with a sensory impairment, being a person with a psychological impairment or.....being someone on the spectrum.
For any of these "classes" of citizens in society, I do not contest or downplay the difficulties faced.
That said, the world will not shaped itself around you or make much in the way of fitting in with your difference. You have to basically get on with life and meet it head on regardless of the difficulties it throws at you.
Work, parenting, social relationships, dating, and countless other things in life will be constant trials. I don't think any of us here doubt that.
Making demands of a community to fit in with you is not cool. It is only going to ostracise and alienate you and exclude you.
The original post on this thread is evidence of the indifference of society. Is it fair? Nope. Is stamping your feet or waving your fists in rage going to fix it? Nope.
Perhaps best we can do is be a little tougher skinned and a little more willing to fight to defend our personal values and freedoms and at the same time accept life is life and it is not the walk in the park or joyous, wonderous thing of feelgood movies. Life is tough and demanding and choosing what and who to fight against is key. Fight the fight that are worth fighting and that you can win at.
I expect that with trans people that is fighting to protect the values of your identity. To rail against those that would seek to do you harm and be accepting of people who would seek not to do you harm. Fight to be comfortable in the skin you are in and with the understanding of what it is to be trans. I ought not be a me and the transpeople against the world. The world is rather big and transpeople are a rather small and insignificant part of that great world. The good news of course is that if you are trans you are also a number of other things that has fuck all to do with being trans. You are a member of a number of other classes be it race, creed, religion, career, or whatever. Look at the sum of your parts and you find the things in yourself that fit with others.
Transpeople are not, in my view, just people with a silly notion in their heads. Even were that the truth it would not really matter. People are people and it is the similarities and the other shared aspects of a human nature and condition that bind us. Interests, experiences and personality. This is where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. This is where when we say "We don't give a shit". It demands whilst trans may be something of great importance to you it may not be to us so find some aspect we share common ground and we will fit in and actually care and share.
That is just my belief.
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Well I can empathize with transpeople to an extent of experiencing gender confusion while in my teenage years. So there is a real geniune feeling in that situation, however you have to be cautious and know EXACTLY what is triggering those thoughts and feelings before taking any major steps. To step into a situation of changing your body, only to find out your mind was going through a phase, or have reasoning that isn't as well thought through or compensating for another underlying problem; it's something you can't just reverse when you regret it.
I'm the opposite case of GA, I came to tolerate myself as I am instead (that or whatever was causing those feelings died down enough). As I joke, I lost the coin toss and just have to deal with it.
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^Yes it has those disadvantages but the graphics are excellent.
Not to mention, the gameplay is exceptional in quality, you can literally do anything as long as you respect the game physics. But no hax is yet to found to violate the physics of it.
Are there any finishing moves? :orly:
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^Yes it has those disadvantages but the graphics are excellent.
Not to mention, the gameplay is exceptional in quality, you can literally do anything as long as you respect the game physics. But no hax is yet to found to violate the physics of it.
Are there any finishing moves? :orly:
As many as you wish, depends on what you mean, "finishing"? ;)
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^Yes it has those disadvantages but the graphics are excellent.
Not to mention, the gameplay is exceptional in quality, you can literally do anything as long as you respect the game physics. But no hax is yet to found to violate the physics of it.
Are there any finishing moves? :orly:
As many as you wish, depends on what you mean, "finishing"? ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5cLLQPu1mg
:zoinks:
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Well that's a interesting way to do it. :laugh:
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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhssqd_dragon-born-goro-kid-casey-heynes_fun
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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhssqd_dragon-born-goro-kid-casey-heynes_fun
:rofl: :plus:
Some people call him Zangief kid too , good on him for smashing that little bullying bastard. :thumbup:
Well that's a interesting way to do it. :laugh:
It's so shexy right? :autism:
(But seriously the game is awesome , I just wish I could kill people online though. :thumbdn:)
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
I certainly don't wish it on GA either, but I do wonder if he has really thought this through completely or if he started taking the estrogen on somewhat of a whim. I think that there a good reason that Soph said that some places make you live as the gender you identify as for a year without the benefit of hormones or gender surgery. Wouldn't it be awful if he grew breasts and got his male parts lopped off and then wished that he hadn't?
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
I certainly don't wish it on GA either, but I do wonder if he has really thought this through completely or if he started taking the estrogen on somewhat of a whim. I think that there a good reason that Soph said that some places make you live as the gender you identify as for a year without the benefit of hormones or gender surgery. Wouldn't it be awful if he grew breasts and got his male parts lopped off and then wished that he hadn't?
That's a scary though I would not wish on anyone, well not on him at least
-
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
I certainly don't wish it on GA either, but I do wonder if he has really thought this through completely or if he started taking the estrogen on somewhat of a whim. I think that there a good reason that Soph said that some places make you live as the gender you identify as for a year without the benefit of hormones or gender surgery. Wouldn't it be awful if he grew breasts and got his male parts lopped off and then wished that he hadn't?
It would be tragic.
I personally could not imagine getting my nutsack and dick removed. It brings tears to my eyes with the thought.
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
I certainly don't wish it on GA either, but I do wonder if he has really thought this through completely or if he started taking the estrogen on somewhat of a whim. I think that there a good reason that Soph said that some places make you live as the gender you identify as for a year without the benefit of hormones or gender surgery. Wouldn't it be awful if he grew breasts and got his male parts lopped off and then wished that he hadn't?
It would be tragic.
I personally could not imagine getting my nutsack and dick removed. It brings tears to my eyes with the thought.
Just reading it is painful enough
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
I certainly don't wish it on GA either, but I do wonder if he has really thought this through completely or if he started taking the estrogen on somewhat of a whim. I think that there a good reason that Soph said that some places make you live as the gender you identify as for a year without the benefit of hormones or gender surgery. Wouldn't it be awful if he grew breasts and got his male parts lopped off and then wished that he hadn't?
It would be tragic.
I personally could not imagine getting my nutsack and dick removed. It brings tears to my eyes with the thought.
Just reading it is painful enough
On the plus side at least there'd be no more inconvenient boners. :zoinks:
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
It'd be more hilarious, rather than ironic.
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An attempt to avoid the TL;DR...
I believe I have consistently used "nature".
I am a firm believer in well-defined and consistent vocabulary, and what A et al are saying just isn't consistent. It's what they want, for all kinds of reasons, but it's not well-defined and it's not consistent. I'm saying that GA was born male and while he in later years has been working towards becoming a woman, that pronoun would, in my mind, not adequately describe the result because a "woman" is a "human female", biologically and genetically speaking, and that's not just the case.
It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
As for the rest, you are missing part of my point. I am basically indifferent. If somebody I meet appears to be a woman and says she is, I am not going to require proof or doubt the statement or anything. I will accept it as a fact, according to the definitions I have outlined.
If, later, somebody shows that the woman in question is biologically a man, I would most likely remain indifferent and continue with the pronouns offered to me at that earlier point. I don't really care, see. My comments here are all about terminology and cases like GA's where I seem to be required to change my pronouns (that have been accepted and OK for years) or else I'm disrespectful and included in some fancy *new* definition using a word that I had to look up to know it exists in current urban terminology (but not, yet, in a printed dictionary).
You seem hell-bent on showing that I must have ulterior motives, that I'm really a bigot of some new and exciting definition, but I just don't think that is the case.
Have you considered how difficult it is to change social conditioning that's been instilled since birth? Of course GA used to exhibit masculine traits, and now as Kayleigh she is working to reprogram her brain to overcome the training and act in a way more aligned with her natural self. If you're having difficulty revising your mental concept, that task is exponentially more difficult from the inside. Not something to be undertaken on a whim, and an ongoing process.
Tell me why I should. What I'm talking about is an individual I learned to know on teh interwebs as a male, who identified himself as a male, and whose friends online identified him as a male. I used a set of pronouns when addressing him or talking about him, but there was no conscious effort on my part. Basically I was indifferent.
I am discussing a vocabulary, a terminology, that is consistent. I am in no way saying what anyone can or cannot do. Why do you think you link is relevant to what I am saying?
I'm in favour of a well-defined terminology, whatever that may be.
Because it is not inaccurate. It's not a spiritual discussion, simply a biological one. You are being PC, Pyraxis, and I have to say I'm a bit surprised.
Maybe I sound different because this is the first time I've tried to have a serious intellectual debate on Intensity.
I don't see how I'm being PC. I've never once called you bigot, transphobic, or cis-whatever-the-new-word-is. I don't know the PC terminology either, LOL! What I called you was a "crotchety old man" with "ridiculous antiquated views".
Sure, that's name-calling, but not out of character with the usual Intensity banter, IMO. I can even see why Kayleigh's blasting in here on a high horse wouldn't predispose you to seeing her POV. But make up your mind. If you don't want people to call you names, fine, but when I backed up my words with scientific sources, you also asked what the point was and whether I was "making you follow links for fun". What argument style are you looking for?
The essence of your argument seems to be that you want clear definitions for the terms male and female, yes? You said you were interested in finding out what pronouns were used for chimeras, but when I offered an answer, you asked what my point was. My point was to clarify the definition.
The reason I asked about mother nature and God is that nature can't have intentions unless it's an intelligent entity.
To me, going after a trans person's gender identity is seriously fighting dirty. That's why I don't do it, and why I was shocked to see that both you and Callaway did. (Schleed I've come to expect it from.) Hell, why do either of you even need to fight dirty? But whatever, I certainly can't stop it. I can however be vocal about my disgust.
That's another of my points here, if you want points. To make noise in defense of trans people. It's up to you how you respond to it.
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You don't have to. Godwin's Law (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw):
That has no relevance. It's just a fun reference to throw around.
Any arguing of views can be called 'preaching,' even your argument. I'm objecting to the claim that I'm forcing you to act on my views, though. I'm picking at the views you force on others, but that is criticism, not the opinion that you should have my views.
Language changes, sure, but only when there is a need, not because a select few wish it to change. You'd have a better shot at it by being a sports journalist.
Also, when on the topic of science and objective evaluation, it is important to use an unambiguous language to the extent possible. The definitions I choose to follow are well established and have a firm foundation in science. Can you imagine what a biology class would be like if we were to follow your (lack of) definitions?
When discussing science, language is an important tool. I take it you are not dealing with either professionally on a daily basis?
There isn't even a need to change a lot of the language that gets changed, it just changes based on trends and culture. Pronouns are not evaluations and they're irrelevant to science. Names and placeholders for names are cultural. Your biology class strawman is flawed and irrelevant. I'm not arguing against physical classifications and I'm even suggesting the classifications are inadequate and need to be further broken down and explored. It seems to me that you are the one who wants to keep things simple because intersexuality isn't your problem. The difference in males and females are not just physical and are social too. The words woman, girl, man, boy, etc are not having their definition changed, they are being given extra definitions which apply to social use.
For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
Elaborate please. You said main reason, not only reason. Also, tell me why reproduction is the meaning of existence.
How is your assumption not a personal view that you hold as obsolete? You criticise people for bringing up personal views as truth and trying to enforce them on others, but I can't see how you're any different.
On the contrary, the definitions I use are excellent for what they are for, recognising and detailing the human race. They are quite objective--there is no hidden agenda for science to study and describe human biology. The terminology used is there to be objective and unambiguous, to allow us to discuss the subject. If you want to discuss sociology, come up with terms suited for the purpose, but for this, as you say, human reproduction makes sense.
I half agree with you but you are mixing arguments. As I said, social usage of words can differ from physical classifications and words can have multiple meanings. I am criticising your stance for being too basic though and questioning you for holding your personal reverence of reproduction over others.
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It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
I never accused you of trolling and it's easy for personal stances and actions to be disrespectful. Do you not believe you are disrespectful?
I guess my views on this is simply this.
If you are trans then Life is going to be fraught with difficulties. Difficulties not experienced by the average Joe Blow. I do not question the validity of this and do not contest it. It will be different to the difficulties that you face being an immigrant in a new country, being a person with an intellectual disability, being a gay, being a person with a sensory impairment, being a person with a psychological impairment or.....being someone on the spectrum.
For any of these "classes" of citizens in society, I do not contest or downplay the difficulties faced.
That said, the world will not shaped itself around you or make much in the way of fitting in with your difference. You have to basically get on with life and meet it head on regardless of the difficulties it throws at you.
Work, parenting, social relationships, dating, and countless other things in life will be constant trials. I don't think any of us here doubt that.
Making demands of a community to fit in with you is not cool. It is only going to ostracise and alienate you and exclude you.
The original post on this thread is evidence of the indifference of society. Is it fair? Nope. Is stamping your feet or waving your fists in rage going to fix it? Nope.
Perhaps best we can do is be a little tougher skinned and a little more willing to fight to defend our personal values and freedoms and at the same time accept life is life and it is not the walk in the park or joyous, wonderous thing of feelgood movies. Life is tough and demanding and choosing what and who to fight against is key. Fight the fight that are worth fighting and that you can win at.
I expect that with trans people that is fighting to protect the values of your identity. To rail against those that would seek to do you harm and be accepting of people who would seek not to do you harm. Fight to be comfortable in the skin you are in and with the understanding of what it is to be trans. I ought not be a me and the transpeople against the world. The world is rather big and transpeople are a rather small and insignificant part of that great world. The good news of course is that if you are trans you are also a number of other things that has fuck all to do with being trans. You are a member of a number of other classes be it race, creed, religion, career, or whatever. Look at the sum of your parts and you find the things in yourself that fit with others.
Transpeople are not, in my view, just people with a silly notion in their heads. Even were that the truth it would not really matter. People are people and it is the similarities and the other shared aspects of a human nature and condition that bind us. Interests, experiences and personality. This is where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. This is where when we say "We don't give a shit". It demands whilst trans may be something of great importance to you it may not be to us so find some aspect we share common ground and we will fit in and actually care and share.
That is just my belief.
I don't have a problem with this standpoint. That's the kind of thing I accept.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
If you want Kayleigh to go away, you really shouldn't bait her with a comment like this. You're just asking her to rage...
I also have to agree with Pyraxis' last post.
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http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html :orly:
Could it not be a coincidence that so many people on the spectrum are "trans" and such? Maybe cause of how AS has affected their life's, they've become confused about their personality's rather than their "gender".
That's a very interesting link, Benji.
It would be ironic if GA's first psychiatrist, the one who told him that his cross dressing and "trans stuff" was a learned behavior because of his sisters and he should stop reinforcing this himself by dressing as a woman, turns out to have actually been right after all.
Interesting? Well yeah it would. At the same time I would not wish it on the blowhard. I really dislike Kayleigh, just not that much
I certainly don't wish it on GA either, but I do wonder if he has really thought this through completely or if he started taking the estrogen on somewhat of a whim. I think that there a good reason that Soph said that some places make you live as the gender you identify as for a year without the benefit of hormones or gender surgery. Wouldn't it be awful if he grew breasts and got his male parts lopped off and then wished that he hadn't?
Well she has breasts and doesn't regret that at all. She had to see a psychiatrist and an endocrinologist a number of times before being prescribed hormones so it definitely wasn't on a whim that she started taking them.
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You don't have to. Godwin's Law (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw):
That has no relevance. It's just a fun reference to throw around.
Actually it has relevance because your credibility went down the drain with that post. Admittedly you had little before, but any Nazi reference is a sign of desperation.
Any arguing of views can be called 'preaching,' even your argument. I'm objecting to the claim that I'm forcing you to act on my views, though. I'm picking at the views you force on others, but that is criticism, not the opinion that you should have my views.
Language changes, sure, but only when there is a need, not because a select few wish it to change. You'd have a better shot at it by being a sports journalist.
Also, when on the topic of science and objective evaluation, it is important to use an unambiguous language to the extent possible. The definitions I choose to follow are well established and have a firm foundation in science. Can you imagine what a biology class would be like if we were to follow your (lack of) definitions?
When discussing science, language is an important tool. I take it you are not dealing with either professionally on a daily basis?
There isn't even a need to change a lot of the language that gets changed, it just changes based on trends and culture. Pronouns are not evaluations and they're irrelevant to science.
So that's a "yes, I'm not dealing with language or science on a professional daily basis"? Do try to answer at least some of my points.
Names and placeholders for names are cultural. Your biology class strawman is flawed and irrelevant. I'm not arguing against physical classifications and I'm even suggesting the classifications are inadequate and need to be further broken down and explored. It seems to me that you are the one who wants to keep things simple because intersexuality isn't your problem. The difference in males and females are not just physical and are social too. The words woman, girl, man, boy, etc are not having their definition changed, they are being given extra definitions which apply to social use.
You are right; it is not my problem. The definitions I use are clear and unambiguous. It takes more than a vanishing minority to change them. You don't even have a clear idea of what changes there should be; as Al pointed out you are constantly moving the goalposts.
Again I'd suggest you to use definitions that do not clash with the existing ones.
For reproductive purposes, the definition is strictly binary and clear-cut. That definition is something I accept, because it conforms quite well to how the human race reproduces, reproduction being the main reason to why we are here.
Elaborate please. You said main reason, not only reason.
You want all of them? Watch Monty Python's The Meaning of Life. It's as good an answer as anything. Or let's just say "42".
Also, tell me why reproduction is the meaning of existence.
Simple biology. That is what we do. For the religious discussion, visit your nearest church, mosque, or other preferred institution.
How is your assumption not a personal view that you hold as obsolete? You criticise people for bringing up personal views as truth and trying to enforce them on others, but I can't see how you're any different.
Ah, there's the "scientists have belief systems just as us Christians" argument. Again. I didn't come up with any of the definitions I use. For a basic flowers-and-bees discussion, start here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_reproduction).
On the contrary, the definitions I use are excellent for what they are for, recognising and detailing the human race. They are quite objective--there is no hidden agenda for science to study and describe human biology. The terminology used is there to be objective and unambiguous, to allow us to discuss the subject. If you want to discuss sociology, come up with terms suited for the purpose, but for this, as you say, human reproduction makes sense.
I half agree with you but you are mixing arguments. As I said, social usage of words can differ from physical classifications and words can have multiple meanings. I am criticising your stance for being too basic though and questioning you for holding your personal reverence of reproduction over others.
So I've brought you halfway over? Good. Now read Wikipedia and make that remaining leap on your own. I don't want to keep you busy with repeating yourself, see, when you have a callout to direct your attention to.
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It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
I never accused you of trolling and it's easy for personal stances and actions to be disrespectful. Do you not believe you are disrespectful?
I am sure he can be and i am sure he has been disrespectful on occasions on I2. I am sure the same could be said of everyone here. Specifically, and in this instance? I really don't think so.
In fact Odeon I think has been rather gentle with you too and more considerate and respectful than I thought he would be.
What you have got from everyone here in this thread and most others is respect and rather light banter by all and sundry. Were you expecting something else? What has Kayleigh been telling you about us? :laugh:
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An attempt to avoid the TL;DR...
I believe I have consistently used "nature".
I am a firm believer in well-defined and consistent vocabulary, and what A et al are saying just isn't consistent. It's what they want, for all kinds of reasons, but it's not well-defined and it's not consistent. I'm saying that GA was born male and while he in later years has been working towards becoming a woman, that pronoun would, in my mind, not adequately describe the result because a "woman" is a "human female", biologically and genetically speaking, and that's not just the case.
It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
As for the rest, you are missing part of my point. I am basically indifferent. If somebody I meet appears to be a woman and says she is, I am not going to require proof or doubt the statement or anything. I will accept it as a fact, according to the definitions I have outlined.
If, later, somebody shows that the woman in question is biologically a man, I would most likely remain indifferent and continue with the pronouns offered to me at that earlier point. I don't really care, see. My comments here are all about terminology and cases like GA's where I seem to be required to change my pronouns (that have been accepted and OK for years) or else I'm disrespectful and included in some fancy *new* definition using a word that I had to look up to know it exists in current urban terminology (but not, yet, in a printed dictionary).
You seem hell-bent on showing that I must have ulterior motives, that I'm really a bigot of some new and exciting definition, but I just don't think that is the case.
Have you considered how difficult it is to change social conditioning that's been instilled since birth? Of course GA used to exhibit masculine traits, and now as Kayleigh she is working to reprogram her brain to overcome the training and act in a way more aligned with her natural self. If you're having difficulty revising your mental concept, that task is exponentially more difficult from the inside. Not something to be undertaken on a whim, and an ongoing process.
Tell me why I should. What I'm talking about is an individual I learned to know on teh interwebs as a male, who identified himself as a male, and whose friends online identified him as a male. I used a set of pronouns when addressing him or talking about him, but there was no conscious effort on my part. Basically I was indifferent.
I am discussing a vocabulary, a terminology, that is consistent. I am in no way saying what anyone can or cannot do. Why do you think you link is relevant to what I am saying?
I'm in favour of a well-defined terminology, whatever that may be.
Because it is not inaccurate. It's not a spiritual discussion, simply a biological one. You are being PC, Pyraxis, and I have to say I'm a bit surprised.
Maybe I sound different because this is the first time I've tried to have a serious intellectual debate on Intensity.
I don't see how I'm being PC. I've never once called you bigot, transphobic, or cis-whatever-the-new-word-is. I don't know the PC terminology either, LOL! What I called you was a "crotchety old man" with "ridiculous antiquated views".
Sure, that's name-calling, but not out of character with the usual Intensity banter, IMO. I can even see why Kayleigh's blasting in here on a high horse wouldn't predispose you to seeing her POV. But make up your mind. If you don't want people to call you names, fine, but when I backed up my words with scientific sources, you also asked what the point was and whether I was "making you follow links for fun". What argument style are you looking for?
The essence of your argument seems to be that you want clear definitions for the terms male and female, yes? You said you were interested in finding out what pronouns were used for chimeras, but when I offered an answer, you asked what my point was. My point was to clarify the definition.
The reason I asked about mother nature and God is that nature can't have intentions unless it's an intelligent entity.
To me, going after a trans person's gender identity is seriously fighting dirty. That's why I don't do it, and why I was shocked to see that both you and Callaway did. (Schleed I've come to expect it from.) Hell, why do either of you even need to fight dirty? But whatever, I certainly can't stop it. I can however be vocal about my disgust.
That's another of my points here, if you want points. To make noise in defense of trans people. It's up to you how you respond to it.
I believe I have already answered most of your comments. I agree that "intentions" is a poor choice of words because it does indeed imply intelligence. I can't readily think of a better one but I am not talking about a god or any form of sentient decision-maker affecting the process, just the initial process by which the sex of the fetus is decided, random or otherwise.
How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
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This thread.
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The reason I asked about mother nature and God is that nature can't have intentions unless it's an intelligent entity.
Personally I reject that statement. Nature absolutely has intentions, the greatest of which being the further diversification and expansion of living matter.
I find it interesting that Pandora PrettyHorse Dimwitted Fucktard has time to post here but not in her callout. :tinfoil:
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(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1lfJHQp2MJTePyO1GdJhmtXFXaybVKkJu8gCFO5Obk7g9U4Wh&t=1)
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It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
I never accused you of trolling and it's easy for personal stances and actions to be disrespectful. Do you not believe you are disrespectful?
I am sure he can be and i am sure he has been disrespectful on occasions on I2. I am sure the same could be said of everyone here. Specifically, and in this instance? I really don't think so.
In fact Odeon I think has been rather gentle with you too and more considerate and respectful than I thought he would be.
What you have got from everyone here in this thread and most others is respect and rather light banter by all and sundry. Were you expecting something else? What has Kayleigh been telling you about us? :laugh:
I'm just saying that it isn't hard to be disrespectful, and that it's hardly a big claim to make. I'm not accusing him of being a terrible person.
What 'vanishing minority' do you speak of? And where is your proof that they're vanishing?
What has my lack of a career in language or science have to do with this discussion?
Godwin's Law is probably fun to throw around but it's still just a opinion of an individual. And it was applied here by your judgment. It's just a throw out. Still no relevance, but if you mean to say I'm bad arguer as a seperate criticism, go ahead and take it.
You're still mixing arguments though. The definitions you use are clear and unambiguous, but nature isn't. It's not my job or concern, but sticking with just the simple categories of male and female is lazy. I'm only mentioning it because it's a flaw in your excuse and argument.
Socially, the physical definitions are mostly useless and only apply to biology. And the arguments for the use pronouns and gender labels are in social terms. You ignore me when I say that the definitions aren't being changed. It's extra definitions and it doesn't interfere with the current definitions at all.
Your joking about the meaning of existence does not answer the question asked of you. Answer my question seriously. Biology explains how reproduction works, but does not prove or suggest any purpose for existence. I mean, people are compelled to reproduce but the activity of life is just activity.
I'm not Christian anyway, or religious. And this isn't discounting science facts. But how do you know what the meaning of existence is and that your perception of the world is genuine? I was portrayed here as having 'christian-like arguments' so I'm turning towards that topic. What makes your view better than anyone elses?
Oh and don't stroke your ego. I have always found science terms good for labelling physical things, I just find that culture is more than just cold science.
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The reason I asked about mother nature and God is that nature can't have intentions unless it's an intelligent entity.
Personally I reject that statement. Nature absolutely has intentions, the greatest of which being the further diversification of expansion of living matter.
I find it interesting that Pandora PrettyHorse Dimwitted Fucktard has time to post here but not in her callout. :tinfoil:
Indeed.
Rissy 11:14:59 AM Viewing the topic Tentacle Queen; Rissy Amethyst Pandora Everlust, step into the ring.
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It doesn't get easier for me to consider such an inaccuracy when people like Rissy come here and basically say I'm trolling or disrespectful because my stance differs from theirs.
I never accused you of trolling and it's easy for personal stances and actions to be disrespectful. Do you not believe you are disrespectful?
I am sure he can be and i am sure he has been disrespectful on occasions on I2. I am sure the same could be said of everyone here. Specifically, and in this instance? I really don't think so.
In fact Odeon I think has been rather gentle with you too and more considerate and respectful than I thought he would be.
What you have got from everyone here in this thread and most others is respect and rather light banter by all and sundry. Were you expecting something else? What has Kayleigh been telling you about us? :laugh:
I'm just saying that it isn't hard to be disrespectful, and that it's hardly a big claim to make. I'm not accusing him of being a terrible person.
What 'vanishing minority' do you speak of? And where is your proof that they're vanishing?
What has my lack of a career in language or science have to do with this discussion?
Godwin's Law is probably fun to throw around but it's still just a opinion of an individual. And it was applied here by your judgment. It's just a throw out. Still no relevance, but if you mean to say I'm bad arguer as a seperate criticism, go ahead and take it.
You're still mixing arguments though. The definitions you use are clear and unambiguous, but nature isn't. It's not my job or concern, but sticking with just the simple categories of male and female is lazy. I'm only mentioning it because it's a flaw in your excuse and argument.
Socially, the physical definitions are mostly useless and only apply to biology. And the arguments for the use pronouns and gender labels are in social terms. You ignore me when I say that the definitions aren't being changed. It's extra definitions and it doesn't interfere with the current definitions at all.
Your joking about the meaning of existence does not answer the question asked of you. Answer my question seriously. Biology explains how reproduction works, but does not prove or suggest any purpose for existence. I mean, people are compelled to reproduce but the activity of life is just activity.
I'm not Christian anyway, or religious. And this isn't discounting science facts. But how do you know what the meaning of existence is and that your perception of the world is genuine? I was portrayed here as having 'christian-like arguments' so I'm turning towards that topic. What makes your view better than anyone elses?
Oh and don't stroke your ego. I have always found science terms good for labelling physical things, I just find that culture is more than just cold science.
I'm sure you have an elaborate reason for quoting Al while replying to me, but I'd suggest you to direct your attention to the callout. I'm all too happy to bitch-slap you for a bit but Al has first dibs, IMO.
Oh, and just to explain things for you: You are using the kind of non-arguments that Christians use, hence the comparison. Also, Godwin's Law may sound like a joke but anyone who's been online for a while will recognise the basic issue. You really aren't very good at this, are you?
-
There was two blank lines after my reply to him. I just didn't quote you afterwards.
I'm just going into philosophy here and seriously questioning you. Will you not humour me? This is not about arguing. Should I start a thread for this instead?
You brought up the subject, and that happens to be another topic I like talking about.
-
There was two blank lines after my reply to him. I just didn't quote you afterwards.
I'm just going into philosophy here and seriously questioning you. Will you not humour me? This is not about arguing. Should I start a thread for this instead?
You brought up the subject, and that happens to be another topic I like talking about.
I guess you could call Odeon out.
-
There was two blank lines after my reply to him. I just didn't quote you afterwards.
I'm just going into philosophy here and seriously questioning you. Will you not humour me? This is not about arguing. Should I start a thread for this instead?
You brought up the subject, and that happens to be another topic I like talking about.
I guess you could call Odeon out.
Three callouts from one argument? That's a lot of drama, even for I2.
-
There was two blank lines after my reply to him. I just didn't quote you afterwards.
I'm just going into philosophy here and seriously questioning you. Will you not humour me? This is not about arguing. Should I start a thread for this instead?
You brought up the subject, and that happens to be another topic I like talking about.
I guess you could call Odeon out.
Three callouts from one argument? That's a lot of drama, even for I2.
Rissy suggested starting another thread for the subject so if she wanted the discussion to be just the two of them, that would actually be a good way to insure it.
-
There was two blank lines after my reply to him. I just didn't quote you afterwards.
I'm just going into philosophy here and seriously questioning you. Will you not humour me? This is not about arguing. Should I start a thread for this instead?
You brought up the subject, and that happens to be another topic I like talking about.
I guess you could call Odeon out.
Three callouts from one argument? That's a lot of drama, even for I2.
Rissy suggested starting another thread for the subject so if she wanted the discussion to be just the two of them, that would actually be a good way to insure it.
Yes, members actually obey that rule. :toporly: :zoinks:
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How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
Nope. The further qualifications are to remove ambiguity, and your simplified definitions, by the nature of simplification, are imprecise.
Beyond that, it's about subtext. So long as you refuse to acknowledge such a thing, we will never come to agreement.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
Yep. I often disagree with both of your stances on things. I also find your communication styles limiting and unpleasant. Hence, more conflict.
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How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
Nope. The further qualifications are to remove ambiguity, and your simplified definitions, by the nature of simplification, are imprecise.
Beyond that, it's about subtext. So long as you refuse to acknowledge such a thing, we will never come to agreement.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
Yep. I often disagree with both of your stances on things. I also find your communication styles limiting and unpleasant. Hence, more conflict.
That and the fact that you and Hadron are contrary in most discussions here and take the path less traveled in discussions.
The big difference is that Hadron looks like he confuses himself when he does it. You do it rather a lot better.
I think you do it to shit-stir and you like the intellectual exercise of taking a strong opposition to things. I personally find it interesting and like watching you come in to play.
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I guess my views on this is simply this.
If you are trans then Life is going to be fraught with difficulties. Difficulties not experienced by the average Joe Blow. I do not question the validity of this and do not contest it. It will be different to the difficulties that you face being an immigrant in a new country, being a person with an intellectual disability, being a gay, being a person with a sensory impairment, being a person with a psychological impairment or.....being someone on the spectrum.
For any of these "classes" of citizens in society, I do not contest or downplay the difficulties faced.
That said, the world will not shaped itself around you or make much in the way of fitting in with your difference. You have to basically get on with life and meet it head on regardless of the difficulties it throws at you.
Work, parenting, social relationships, dating, and countless other things in life will be constant trials. I don't think any of us here doubt that.
Making demands of a community to fit in with you is not cool. It is only going to ostracise and alienate you and exclude you.
The original post on this thread is evidence of the indifference of society. Is it fair? Nope. Is stamping your feet or waving your fists in rage going to fix it? Nope.
Perhaps best we can do is be a little tougher skinned and a little more willing to fight to defend our personal values and freedoms and at the same time accept life is life and it is not the walk in the park or joyous, wonderous thing of feelgood movies. Life is tough and demanding and choosing what and who to fight against is key. Fight the fight that are worth fighting and that you can win at.
I expect that with trans people that is fighting to protect the values of your identity. To rail against those that would seek to do you harm and be accepting of people who would seek not to do you harm. Fight to be comfortable in the skin you are in and with the understanding of what it is to be trans. I ought not be a me and the transpeople against the world. The world is rather big and transpeople are a rather small and insignificant part of that great world. The good news of course is that if you are trans you are also a number of other things that has fuck all to do with being trans. You are a member of a number of other classes be it race, creed, religion, career, or whatever. Look at the sum of your parts and you find the things in yourself that fit with others.
Transpeople are not, in my view, just people with a silly notion in their heads. Even were that the truth it would not really matter. People are people and it is the similarities and the other shared aspects of a human nature and condition that bind us. Interests, experiences and personality. This is where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. This is where when we say "We don't give a shit". It demands whilst trans may be something of great importance to you it may not be to us so find some aspect we share common ground and we will fit in and actually care and share.
That is just my belief.
I don't have a problem with this standpoint. That's the kind of thing I accept.
Rissy agreeing with me BEFORE you answer my callout, especially when it is agreeing with my in respect to what I feel, about something you previously judged and railed against me (the crux of the callout after all), is not an especially good move. It weakens you further.
Makes it seem like you can galloping in making base assumptions without actually having any idea on us collectively or individually.
Makes it look like a put up job from Kayleigh.
But enough on this thread from me. I made a callout and you have not gone galloping in there nearly as enthusiastically
I'm sure you have an elaborate reason for quoting Al while replying to me, but I'd suggest you to direct your attention to the callout. I'm all too happy to bitch-slap you for a bit but Al has first dibs, IMO.
Oh, and just to explain things for you: You are using the kind of non-arguments that Christians use, hence the comparison. Also, Godwin's Law may sound like a joke but anyone who's been online for a while will recognise the basic issue. You really aren't very good at this, are you?
Thanks Odeon and quite right Rissy. The callout is there and by all means make one on Odeon, but do take care of mine first. It has been there a while. It places Odeon at a bit of a disadvantage. He wants to allow you to address the callout and the points made there without going over this ground or bringing in new subject matter. Once the callout is done my points will be addressed and we will know where things stand there. It is a respectful approach he is taking with us both.
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How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
Nope. The further qualifications are to remove ambiguity, and your simplified definitions, by the nature of simplification, are imprecise.
Beyond that, it's about subtext. So long as you refuse to acknowledge such a thing, we will never come to agreement.
They don't sound PC to me? It's interesting that you would know this better than I do.
But again, they are not my definitions, and no, I disagree, they are perfect for what they are for. So I guess we won't come to an agreement.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
Yep. I often disagree with both of your stances on things. I also find your communication styles limiting and unpleasant. Hence, more conflict.
What I am seeing is that you'd go after us for argument's sake just because it's us. It's almost a foregone conclusion if the subject is provocative enough; when I see you posting, I almost *know* that you will have taken a stance against us. Other people might voice those same arguments and you'd remain silent and probably not even here. I tend to see that as a kind of dishonesty on your side. It hurts your credibility.
And it certainly doesn't make whatever points you might have more right.
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How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
Nope. The further qualifications are to remove ambiguity, and your simplified definitions, by the nature of simplification, are imprecise.
Beyond that, it's about subtext. So long as you refuse to acknowledge such a thing, we will never come to agreement.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
Yep. I often disagree with both of your stances on things. I also find your communication styles limiting and unpleasant. Hence, more conflict.
That and the fact that you and Hadron are contrary in most discussions here and take the path less traveled in discussions.
The big difference is that Hadron looks like he confuses himself when he does it. You do it rather a lot better.
I think you do it to shit-stir and you like the intellectual exercise of taking a strong opposition to things. I personally find it interesting and like watching you come in to play.
Hadron does it with everyone. Pyraxis is more selective so as a shit-stirrer she is rather limited. She doesn't like me or Callaway and it shows. I'd be more impressed if she did the same with others and even more so if she had a leg to stand on.
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There was two blank lines after my reply to him. I just didn't quote you afterwards.
I'm just going into philosophy here and seriously questioning you. Will you not humour me? This is not about arguing. Should I start a thread for this instead?
You brought up the subject, and that happens to be another topic I like talking about.
Finish the callout with Al first. If there is something left from your arguments, or you, then by all means start a callout. Just make sure that you don't revive the topics you already lost against Al because that's just, well, tiresome.
:deadhorse:
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How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
Nope. The further qualifications are to remove ambiguity, and your simplified definitions, by the nature of simplification, are imprecise.
Beyond that, it's about subtext. So long as you refuse to acknowledge such a thing, we will never come to agreement.
That said she will have a go at it. She dresses up silly notions to make them almost look legitimate though and that is something Hadron srives for but doesn't come close to doing.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
Yep. I often disagree with both of your stances on things. I also find your communication styles limiting and unpleasant. Hence, more conflict.
That and the fact that you and Hadron are contrary in most discussions here and take the path less traveled in discussions.
The big difference is that Hadron looks like he confuses himself when he does it. You do it rather a lot better.
I think you do it to shit-stir and you like the intellectual exercise of taking a strong opposition to things. I personally find it interesting and like watching you come in to play.
Hadron does it with everyone. Pyraxis is more selective so as a shit-stirrer she is rather limited. She doesn't like me or Callaway and it shows. I'd be more impressed if she did the same with others and even more so if she had a leg to stand on.
Yes but Hadron for all his ego stoking as to being intellectual is fucking hopeless.
You are right about Pyraxis being selective who she targets. You are right about not having a leg to stand on but then that comes with shit-stirring. She does manage to dress up a silly notion and pads it well enough to almost pass it for a clever idea. This is something Hadron tries for and fails miserably at. That she doesn't manage it is neither here nor there. I think she does very well. End result of a dressed up silly notion is under scrutiny it will show itself as silly, but I find it interesting how she works this. She is trying to be provocative.
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Lol~ But I did agree with you Al. I'm not going to hide what I think. Most of your objection to me is misunderstanding. I speak my mind and accept that I'm prone to error. I don't accept untrue criticism though.
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How is my preferring definitions I think are unambiguous the same as fighting dirty? How is that the same as attacking someone's gender?
Oh, and your inability to give a straight answer to the simple Mowgli question and instead qualifying everything ad nauseum sounds very PC to me.
Nope. The further qualifications are to remove ambiguity, and your simplified definitions, by the nature of simplification, are imprecise.
Beyond that, it's about subtext. So long as you refuse to acknowledge such a thing, we will never come to agreement.
That said she will have a go at it. She dresses up silly notions to make them almost look legitimate though and that is something Hadron srives for but doesn't come close to doing.
And finally, I suspect that nothing I can say here would make you change your opinions re me and what I'm saying. You tend to go after me and Callaway more often than not, and this is not an exception.
Yep. I often disagree with both of your stances on things. I also find your communication styles limiting and unpleasant. Hence, more conflict.
That and the fact that you and Hadron are contrary in most discussions here and take the path less traveled in discussions.
The big difference is that Hadron looks like he confuses himself when he does it. You do it rather a lot better.
I think you do it to shit-stir and you like the intellectual exercise of taking a strong opposition to things. I personally find it interesting and like watching you come in to play.
Hadron does it with everyone. Pyraxis is more selective so as a shit-stirrer she is rather limited. She doesn't like me or Callaway and it shows. I'd be more impressed if she did the same with others and even more so if she had a leg to stand on.
Yes but Hadron for all his ego stoking as to being intellectual is fucking hopeless.
You are right about Pyraxis being selective who she targets. You are right about not having a leg to stand on but then that comes with shit-stirring. She does manage to dress up a silly notion and pads it well enough to almost pass it for a clever idea. This is something Hadron tries for and fails miserably at. That she doesn't manage it is neither here nor there. I think she does very well. End result of a dressed up silly notion is under scrutiny it will show itself as silly, but I find it interesting how she works this. She is trying to be provocative.
She is trying to, yes, but it hurts her credibility and in the end she is nothing more than a shit-stirrer.
-
From Sir Les's callout:
I only came hear judging odeon. And I'm constantly making judgements to understand people.
Moving goalposts again.
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
-
You guys are so gay. ;D
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You guys are so gay. ;D
My sides are split with your sheer comic wit.
(OMG IT RHYMED :autism:)
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You guys are so gay. ;D
My sides are split with your sheer comic wit.
(OMG IT RHYMED :autism:)
Gayness reaching critical mass. :o
-
You guys are so gay. ;D
My sides are split with your sheer comic wit.
(OMG IT RHYMED :autism:)
Gayness reaching critical mass. :o
http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,17194.0.html
^ THAT is gay. :P
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Ok thanks for answering.
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I guess it's something I will only find out if it happens.
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I guess it's something I will only find out if it happens.
Just bring 'em up properly and you needn't worry ;)
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
-
I guess it's something I will only find out if it happens.
Just bring 'em up properly and you needn't worry ;)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/zlz1b8.jpg)
:zoinks:
-
:lol:
-
I guess it's something I will only find out if it happens.
Just bring 'em up properly and you needn't worry ;)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/zlz1b8.jpg)
:zoinks:
:P But you actually look like that all the time
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Now Squiddy, be sure you stay away from people like that young man in the photo!
I know you like to meet your little internet friends, but he looks as if he would be a very bad influence on you! :prude:
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I guess it's something I will only find out if it happens.
Just bring 'em up properly and you needn't worry ;)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/zlz1b8.jpg)
:zoinks:
:P But you actually look like that all the time
Actually I hardly wear make up , (probably about 2/3 times if I'm honest)
That pic you saw was because I had stuff left over after halloween and my ex had a blod fetish so I decided to tease him. ;)
Plus I have far better lipstick applying skills :zoinks:
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I obviously need more practice, but I was trying to look like a whore if I remember :eyelash:
-
SQUID VS PETERDER
(http://i51.tinypic.com/301hgt0.jpg)
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SQUID VS PETERDER
(http://i51.tinypic.com/301hgt0.jpg)
OMG I DO SEE THE SIMILARITIES. :rofl:
Let me just go stab myself in the face with botox , put on some red lippy and I'll be set :zoinks:
I obviously need more practice, but I was trying to look like a whore if I remember :eyelash:
Well no offense but it looks more like 2 girls 1 cup :laugh:
You want a brighter red lipstick , like a really trashy red if you want to look like a whore.
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:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
Thanks, i'll remember the tips if i ever go in drag to a fancy dress :P
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Hadron does it with everyone. Pyraxis is more selective so as a shit-stirrer she is rather limited. She doesn't like me or Callaway and it shows. I'd be more impressed if she did the same with others and even more so if she had a leg to stand on.
Yes but Hadron for all his ego stoking as to being intellectual is fucking hopeless.
You are right about Pyraxis being selective who she targets. You are right about not having a leg to stand on but then that comes with shit-stirring. She does manage to dress up a silly notion and pads it well enough to almost pass it for a clever idea. This is something Hadron tries for and fails miserably at. That she doesn't manage it is neither here nor there. I think she does very well. End result of a dressed up silly notion is under scrutiny it will show itself as silly, but I find it interesting how she works this. She is trying to be provocative.
She is trying to, yes, but it hurts her credibility and in the end she is nothing more than a shit-stirrer.
Goddamn, it's folie à deux in a ménage à trois :LOL: :clap:
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
:indeed:
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
:indeed:
:agreed:
Honestly I was shitting bricks after I posted that , waiting for the blabberiser. :lol:
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
:indeed:
:agreed:
Honestly I was shitting bricks after I posted that , waiting for the blabberiser. :lol:
:laugh: I just snorted I laughed so loud.
-
Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
:indeed:
:agreed:
Honestly I was shitting bricks after I posted that , waiting for the blabberiser. :lol:
:laugh: I just snorted I laughed so loud.
:laugh:
I tend to do that when I laugh too , it's never a barely audible one is it?
always the SNOOOOOOOOOOOORT that makes everyone turn around and look at you with a half bemused half disgusted look :facepalm2:
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:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
-
:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
:zombiefuck:
Care to describe what happens?
-
Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
:indeed:
:agreed:
Honestly I was shitting bricks after I posted that , waiting for the blabberiser. :lol:
:laugh: I just snorted I laughed so loud.
:laugh:
I tend to do that when I laugh too , it's never a barely audible one is it?
always the SNOOOOOOOOOOOORT that makes everyone turn around and look at you with a half bemused half disgusted look :facepalm2:
Exactly!!! If I'm going to do it, I'm not going to be half-assed about it. :lol:
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
:indeed:
:agreed:
Honestly I was shitting bricks after I posted that , waiting for the blabberiser. :lol:
:laugh: I just snorted I laughed so loud.
:laugh:
I tend to do that when I laugh too , it's never a barely audible one is it?
always the SNOOOOOOOOOOOORT that makes everyone turn around and look at you with a half bemused half disgusted look :facepalm2:
Exactly!!! If I'm going to do it, I'm not going to be half-assed about it. :lol:
:lol:
-
:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
:zombiefuck:
Care to describe what happens?
um, not really but ok :D A guy squats over a glass jar and shoves it in his ass, but when it gets in there it breaks. he starts digging shards of glass out of his ass and it just rains blood. After about a minute he like hobbles away.
-
:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
:zombiefuck:
Care to describe what happens?
um, not really but ok :D A guy squats over a glass jar and shoves it in his ass, but when it gets in there it breaks. he starts digging shards of glass out of his ass and it just rains blood. After about a minute he like hobbles away.
Why did I lol at that? :laugh:
-
:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
:zombiefuck:
Care to describe what happens?
um, not really but ok :D A guy squats over a glass jar and shoves it in his ass, but when it gets in there it breaks. he starts digging shards of glass out of his ass and it just rains blood. After about a minute he like hobbles away.
That's terrible. He probably needed a colostomy.
-
:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
:zombiefuck:
Care to describe what happens?
um, not really but ok :D A guy squats over a glass jar and shoves it in his ass, but when it gets in there it breaks. he starts digging shards of glass out of his ass and it just rains blood. After about a minute he like hobbles away.
Why did I lol at that? :laugh:
Because you're a mentally disturbed asspie? :autism:
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Hadron does it with everyone. Pyraxis is more selective so as a shit-stirrer she is rather limited. She doesn't like me or Callaway and it shows. I'd be more impressed if she did the same with others and even more so if she had a leg to stand on.
Yes but Hadron for all his ego stoking as to being intellectual is fucking hopeless.
You are right about Pyraxis being selective who she targets. You are right about not having a leg to stand on but then that comes with shit-stirring. She does manage to dress up a silly notion and pads it well enough to almost pass it for a clever idea. This is something Hadron tries for and fails miserably at. That she doesn't manage it is neither here nor there. I think she does very well. End result of a dressed up silly notion is under scrutiny it will show itself as silly, but I find it interesting how she works this. She is trying to be provocative.
She is trying to, yes, but it hurts her credibility and in the end she is nothing more than a shit-stirrer.
Goddamn, it's folie à deux in a ménage à trois :LOL: :clap:
The only word I understand there is threesome...
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I guess it's something I will only find out if it happens.
Just bring 'em up properly and you needn't worry ;)
Well, I don't believe it's about upbringing. :P
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Odeon I hope this isn't too personal a question , if it is just say and I'll delete and apologise if needs be.
If one of your children decided they were trans (obviously when they are much older) , and wanted you to refer them as the opposite gender , would you refer to them as their desired gender?
I'm not attempting to bring emotions into this i'm just genuinely curious. :)
Excellent question.
I honestly don't know. I would probably try but I doubt it would be easy.
Interesting question and good on ya for an honest answer, Odeon.
It bothers me, though, because I really don't know. I hate it when I don't.
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Hadron does it with everyone. Pyraxis is more selective so as a shit-stirrer she is rather limited. She doesn't like me or Callaway and it shows. I'd be more impressed if she did the same with others and even more so if she had a leg to stand on.
Yes but Hadron for all his ego stoking as to being intellectual is fucking hopeless.
You are right about Pyraxis being selective who she targets. You are right about not having a leg to stand on but then that comes with shit-stirring. She does manage to dress up a silly notion and pads it well enough to almost pass it for a clever idea. This is something Hadron tries for and fails miserably at. That she doesn't manage it is neither here nor there. I think she does very well. End result of a dressed up silly notion is under scrutiny it will show itself as silly, but I find it interesting how she works this. She is trying to be provocative.
She is trying to, yes, but it hurts her credibility and in the end she is nothing more than a shit-stirrer.
Goddamn, it's folie à deux in a ménage à trois :LOL: :clap:
It's funny how pretty much every reply you make crumbles when studied at any length, and this one is not an exception. It looks so sleek and meaningful at first glance.
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I think there should be a pretentious meter for each member, instead of karma.
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I think there should be a pretentious meter for each member, instead of karma.
:agreed:
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I would score pretty well at that. :asthing:
Manjar is not my idea of a good laugh. I saw it years ago.
-
Bme pain olympics is worse.
-
This is getting old again it needs something wonder what :zoinks:
(http://www.toptitties.com/actions/thumb.html?u=23280&s=1&t=2)
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The perfect retort to any argument :plus:
Every thread is just a little more happier and friendlier, with boobs
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:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
:zombiefuck:
Care to describe what happens?
um, not really but ok :D A guy squats over a glass jar and shoves it in his ass, but when it gets in there it breaks. he starts digging shards of glass out of his ass and it just rains blood. After about a minute he like hobbles away.
Why did I lol at that? :laugh:
Because you're a mentally disturbed asspie? :autism:
You only just noticed that? ;)
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:zombiefuck: I still haven't seen 1 man 1 jar or whatever it is :orly:
OMFG
that was honestly the most disgusting thing Ive ever seen on the internet that is real
and Ive seen a lot of shit
wasn't there more, blood involved?
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This is getting old again it needs something wonder what :zoinks:
(http://www.toptitties.com/actions/thumb.html?u=23280&s=1&t=2)
Are those a transguy's tits?
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This is getting old again it needs something wonder what :zoinks:
(http://www.toptitties.com/actions/thumb.html?u=23280&s=1&t=2)
Are those a transguy's tits?
I don't think so but that would be appropriate for this thread :green:
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That might actually very well be a transguy. Some of them are astonishingly good looking.
-
That might actually very well be a transguy. Some of them are astonishingly good looking.
:indeed:
(http://www.theyeogiyo.com/images/content/news/articles/2008/12/22/transgender-singer.jpg)
She is transgender ^
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Katoeys are :viking:
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Some men make stunning women :thumbup:
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Some men make stunning women :thumbup:
:agreed:
-
Unless you're GA.
-
Unless you're GA.
I was waiting for someone to say that , why did I think it was most likely to be you Schleed? :zoinks:
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Goddamn, it's folie à deux in a ménage à trois :LOL: :clap:
It's funny how pretty much every reply you make crumbles when studied at any length, and this one is not an exception. It looks so sleek and meaningful at first glance.
That's okay, it's a joke. To help diffuse the tension. Guess it didn't work for you. :P
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Thought it was a joke as well, but also thought the bit about stirring shit in the end was a joke too.
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Thought it was a joke as well, but also thought the bit about stirring shit in the end was a joke too.
Stirring shit in the end?
Don't we already have a whole thread dedicated to this that's surprisingly popular with the guests?
:laugh:
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:laugh:
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This is getting old again it needs something wonder what :zoinks:
(http://www.toptitties.com/actions/thumb.html?u=23280&s=1&t=2)
Are those a transguy's tits?
If they were a transguy they wouldn't wear make-up and they likely wouldn't be showing off their tits. Perhaps you mean transgirl?
I'm pansexual so I have to agree that traps are hot though~ >:D
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Not into manly guys huh? ;)
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Some you would never guess :o
(http://www.shemale-porn-galls.com/galls/sarina/sarina_window_seat_pic/9.jpg)
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That whole pansexual label...doesn't quite fit me
I don't really like women
but I like trans. both f2m and m2f
so, thats not exactly straight is it ?
I dunno what that makes me then
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I met an Aspie f2m girl last year. Too bad anything didn't happen. She's into guys despite being f2m.
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That whole pansexual label...doesn't quite fit me
I don't really like women
but I like trans. both f2m and m2f
so, thats not exactly straight is it ?
I dunno what that makes me then
We are cut from different areas of the same "stuff". ;)
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That whole pansexual label...doesn't quite fit me
I don't really like women
but I like trans. both f2m and m2f
so, thats not exactly straight is it ?
I dunno what that makes me then
It doesn't fit anyone. You're probably bi.
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Goddamn, it's folie à deux in a ménage à trois :LOL: :clap:
It's funny how pretty much every reply you make crumbles when studied at any length, and this one is not an exception. It looks so sleek and meaningful at first glance.
That's okay, it's a joke. To help diffuse the tension. Guess it didn't work for you. :P
Oh, I'm sorry. It was meant to be funny?
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That whole pansexual label...doesn't quite fit me
I don't really like women
but I like trans. both f2m and m2f
so, thats not exactly straight is it ?
I dunno what that makes me then
It doesn't fit anyone. You're probably bi.
Well, if I was bi I think I'd like girls. I think that all sexuality is fluid.
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Oh yeah, maybe you're just straight and are intruiged by trannies. I mean some of those chicks with dick, I bet a lot of guys would be tempted, doesn't mean they're all gay or bi.
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I have the same, opposite preference, Eris. ;)
And yep benji, yep.
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Oh yeah, maybe you're just straight and are intruiged by trannies. I mean some of those chicks with dick, I bet a lot of guys would be tempted, doesn't mean they're all gay or bi.
true. I am REALLY intrigued by trannies though. And when I was younger I liked girls. I mean, I still think they are hot, but I dont want to have sex with them.
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I think thats just a natural thing, I can appreciate some male actors being attractive, hot even :orly: but yeah, I wouldn't get an urge to have sex with them.
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I think thats just a natural thing, I can appreciate some male actors being attractive, hot even :orly: but yeah, I wouldn't get an urge to have sex with them.
EXACTLY! *high five*
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I think thats just a natural thing, I can appreciate some male actors being attractive, hot even :orly: but yeah, I wouldn't get an urge to have sex with them.
EXACTLY! *high five*
*high five* *down below... ok maybe not :zoinks:
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Rofl bro. :LOL:
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:P
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Oh, I'm sorry. It was meant to be funny?
Yeah. *shrugs*
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Oh yeah, maybe you're just straight and are intruiged by trannies. I mean some of those chicks with dick, I bet a lot of guys would be tempted, doesn't mean they're all gay or bi.
I like trannies of either variety better than both straight men and straight women. Not sure what the word is for that.
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Oh yeah, maybe you're just straight and are intruiged by trannies. I mean some of those chicks with dick, I bet a lot of guys would be tempted, doesn't mean they're all gay or bi.
I like trannies of either variety better than both straight men and straight women. Not sure what the word is for that.
Not fussed? :P
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Oh yeah, maybe you're just straight and are intruiged by trannies. I mean some of those chicks with dick, I bet a lot of guys would be tempted, doesn't mean they're all gay or bi.
I like trannies of either variety better than both straight men and straight women. Not sure what the word is for that.
Transphilia?
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Some you would never guess :o
(http://www.shemale-porn-galls.com/galls/sarina/sarina_window_seat_pic/9.jpg)
I like how that works as you scroll down... Her boobs are too big IMO, I guess she wanted to get into porn...
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Not into manly guys huh? ;)
I'm into manly guys too, I just think traps are interesting and I'm a /d/eviant.
Of course, a lot of transgirls/transguys don't like being fetishized.
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I'm a hairy bastard but there's a fetish for that. There's a fetish for literally anything. Get used to anything you hold dear of being sexualised.
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What about grumpy, arrogant, belligerent old men? Is there a section in the marketplace that sing the praise of those endearing traits?
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Any Weeble fetishists out there? :zoinks:
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Any Weeble fetishists out there? :zoinks:
Chubby chasers are well known...
rule 34 ftw
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Any Weeble fetishists out there? :zoinks:
Chubby chasers are well known...
rule 34 ftw
What's Rule 34? Does it state that there's someone for everyone? :orly:
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Any Weeble fetishists out there? :zoinks:
Chubby chasers are well known...
rule 34 ftw
What's Rule 34? Does it state that there's someone for everyone? :orly:
"There's always porn of it, NO EXCEPTIONS."
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Any Weeble fetishists out there? :zoinks:
Chubby chasers are well known...
rule 34 ftw
What's Rule 34? Does it state that there's someone for everyone? :orly:
"There's always porn of it, NO EXCEPTiONS."
:plus: for the clarification. Weeble porn... :rofl:
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Some you would never guess :o
(http://www.shemale-porn-galls.com/galls/sarina/sarina_window_seat_pic/9.jpg)
Alright, seriously, how can one tell these days if what looks like a woman really is a woman and not a man in disguise? :-[
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trans are beautiful :autism:
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Honestly guys, I know I like dudes, But most of the guys I see are crosdressers. It's one of the sexiest things in the world to me.
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trans are beautiful :autism:
That's the problem. Why can't they all be ugly? Less confusion for me.
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Alright, seriously, how can one tell these days if what looks like a woman really is a woman and not a man in disguise? :-[
General Razorbeard would agree with you on that. :zoinks:
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Honestly guys, I know I like dudes, But most of the guys I see are crosdressers. It's one of the sexiest things in the world to me.
...and one of the best things in the world is diversity of taste and opinion. :thumbup:
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Honestly guys, I know I like dudes, But most of the guys I see are crosdressers. It's one of the sexiest things in the world to me.
...and one of the best things in the world is diversity of taste and opinion. :thumbup:
:agreed: :plus:
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Especially Thai and other South East Asian ones are cute. :angel:
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Imagine making out and feeling up those tits then reaching down and getting the surprise of you life :laugh:
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Imagine making out and feeling up those tits then reaching down and getting the surprise of you life :laugh:
Do I have to? :zombiefuck:
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(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/demotivational-posters-transgender-win.jpg)
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This is getting old again it needs something wonder what :zoinks:
(http://www.toptitties.com/actions/thumb.html?u=23280&s=1&t=2)
Are those a transguy's tits?
Why would a transguy wear makeup, have long girly hair and pose for topless pictures before an operation?
(not that there aren't many guys/squids who wear make up and/or have long hair lol, but I'd think it would be unusual for a pre-op transguy)
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you thinkin about bumpin up some old drama, ppk? :P
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you thinkin about bumpin up some old drama, ppk? :P
Aww shit, this thread again. But I wonder if Rissy and other challengers will appear this time should it get heated? :orly:
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you thinkin about bumpin up some old drama, ppk? :P
No, I saw a bot looking at this thread and got drawn into reading it all.
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(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/demotivational-posters-transgender-win.jpg)
The Fremantle changing room.
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I think that Rissy won't be back, which is a kinda shame
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DELAWARE BEACHES: TRANSGENDERED MEN GO TOPLESS IN REHOBOTH
Action called upsetting, not illegal.
By IRA PORTER The News Journal
Rehoboth Beach and the local Internet have been buzzing for days after a few transgendered men caused a stir on the beach over the holiday weekend by removing their tops and revealing their enhanced breasts.
Police there were called to the beach after lifeguards requested that the sunbathers replace their tops.
"Passers-by came up to the lifeguard and said they were alarmed and unhappy with the females showing their breasts," Police Chief Keith Banks said. "The lifeguard responded and saw that they were males."
Banks said police were called because the men originally refused to put their tops back on, but had consented before police arrived. Officers made sure the situation was under control, and no citations were issued.
Banks said it could have been difficult to issue a citation because Rehoboth law defines indecent exposure two ways:
"A male is guilty of indecent exposure if he exposes his genitals or buttocks under circumstances which he knows his conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm to another person.
"A female is guilty of indecent exposure if she exposes her genitals, breasts or buttocks under circumstances which she knows her conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm to another person."
So the men's behavior may have been upsetting, but it was not illegal.
"It is important to say that under Rehoboth law this was not against the law," Banks said. "In this case, they had male genitalia; therefore, they are not guilty of a crime."
Banks said police only enforce the laws and want to make sure that people who visit the beach are comfortable. Police have not had previous problems with this kind of behavior, and there is no need for a specific law to address it, Banks said.
Not all are so sure.
"We'll see if we need to address it," said Kathy McGuiness, one of Rehoboth's commissioners. McGuiness said this will be a topic at a town hall meeting next week.
"I can't speak for the mayor or anyone else. I can speak for myself because I am a commissioner. I hardly see us reversing the topless law. I don't think we are going to repeal it and allow women to go topless. Now if someone is going to go through the process of having implants, then they probably should think about following the laws of the person they would like to become," McGuiness said.
Steve Elkins, executive director of CAMP Rehoboth, a nonprofit based in Rehoboth that aims to promote a positive environment for the gay and lesbian community, essentially agreed.
"Technically it wasn't against the law. However, there are situations where people who -- because of feelings about their birth, because of who they are -- perceive themselves as females. I think we have to respect that, but on the other hand since they chose to identify themselves as females, they have to respect the law."
Elkins said he also thinks that it is horrific that some people who voiced outrage through radio talk shows and the Internet only have a problem because they were transgendered.
"Whoever called and complained (initially) complained about a woman having her top off," he said. "The people now trying to make something about the fact that they were also men, they are trying to have it both ways. You can't have it both ways."
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FFS , boobs are not genitalia.
A vagina is female genitalia , boobs are child nourishers.
the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
That never ceases to piss me off, Would they impose the "exposition of breasts" thing on mothers breastfeeding? , stupid stupid people :tantrum:.
OK rant over. :P
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the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
This made my eye twitch; but feeling quiet today. Maybe will argue with you about it later.
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FFS , boobs are not genitalia.
A vagina is female genitalia , boobs are child nourishers.
the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
That never ceases to piss me off, Would they impose the "exposition of breasts" thing on mothers breastfeeding? , stupid stupid people :tantrum:.
OK rant over. :P
You have that backward Squiddy. Women get paid to show their tits in magazines because they are considered sexually arousing and were for millennia before whack books were published.
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FFS , boobs are not genitalia.
A vagina is female genitalia , boobs are child nourishers.
the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
That never ceases to piss me off, Would they impose the "exposition of breasts" thing on mothers breastfeeding? , stupid stupid people :tantrum:.
OK rant over. :P
You have that backward Squiddy. Women get paid to show their tits in magazines because they are considered sexually arousing and were for millennia before whack books were published.
Imagine had men with large boobs been around during Roman times, or the middle ages Rennaisance period. da Vinci and Michelangelo both would have had a stroke. Picture it, the statue of David with 44dds.
Just saying.
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Nope. :thumbdn: :zombiefuck:
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Sorry but I consider a woman's tits sexually arousing. Yes, they are for breast-feeding but something in me very strongly feels that there is more to it.
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Sorry but I consider a woman's tits sexually arousing. Yes, they are for breast-feeding but something in me very strongly feels that there is more to it.
I was never breast fed, so I look at them merely as sexual :headbang2:
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Sorry but I consider a woman's tits sexually arousing. Yes, they are for breast-feeding but something in me very strongly feels that there is more to it.
Seconded.
The arousing factor could be an ancient primitive instinct we have that allows men to subconsciously judge a women's fertility and ability to bear children by them. Not sure, but it would make some sense on why breasts are arousing I suppose. :-\
Like I said, I'm not sure on that.
-
Of course, I'd be willing to test my theory. :eyebrows:
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Of course, I'd be willing to test my theory. :eyebrows:
Will you write a 200 page study on this complete, properly cited and documented, illustrated with no fewer than 100 illustrations?
-
Of course, I'd be willing to test my theory. :eyebrows:
Will you write a 200 page study on this complete, properly cited and documented, illustrated with no fewer than 100 illustrations?
Only if I can complete the fieldwork.
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Ya know, Reagan claimed he was breastfed. Only problem was, his dentures kept slipping.
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Ya know, Reagan claimed he was breastfed. Only problem was, his dentures kept slipping.
Thanks but that's not an image I particularly want to keep.
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Sorry but I consider a woman's tits sexually arousing. Yes, they are for breast-feeding but something in me very strongly feels that there is more to it.
Seconded.
The arousing factor could be an ancient primitive instinct we have that allows men to subconsciously judge a women's fertility and ability to bear children by them. Not sure, but it would make some sense on why breasts are arousing I suppose. :-\
Like I said, I'm not sure on that.
Thirded.
Not just all about the personality in a woman. :angel:
I am glad that women find men attractive. God only knows what the hell is attractive in a guy, I do not ponder over this too much but a woman's body is a wonderful thing.
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the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
This made my eye twitch; but feeling quiet today. Maybe will argue with you about it later.
Apologies , that probably was a little heavy handed of me.
You have that backward Squiddy. Women get paid to show their tits in magazines because they are considered sexually arousing and were for millennia before whack books were published.
I'm referring to the over-sexualisation of boobs due to those kind of things making them considered more like genitalia than what they actually are , child nourishers , IMO.
Sorry but I consider a woman's tits sexually arousing. Yes, they are for breast-feeding but something in me very strongly feels that there is more to it.
It's apparently down to primal senses and all that malarchy. :P
Wide hips and large breasts are signs of fertililty or at least percieved as allegedly, I'm not stating they are NOT supposed to be sexually arousing , just simply that they are not genitalia , because they aren't.
Sorry but I consider a woman's tits sexually arousing. Yes, they are for breast-feeding but something in me very strongly feels that there is more to it.
Seconded.
The arousing factor could be an ancient primitive instinct we have that allows men to subconsciously judge a women's fertility and ability to bear children by them. Not sure, but it would make some sense on why breasts are arousing I suppose. :-\
Like I said, I'm not sure on that.
Rofl , I already said that then noticed this post. :laugh:
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the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
This made my eye twitch; but feeling quiet today. Maybe will argue with you about it later.
Apologies , that probably was a little heavy handed of me.
Not a girl in a mag so no need for apology. Your statement gave the perception of blaming women, if even only certain women, for breast being considered sexual. You better explained in your response to PPK.
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At this point in the discussion I once again want it for the record that I like boobs.
-
the only thing that made them "sexual" , is some sluts brandishing their baps in lad magazines. :thumbdn:
This made my eye twitch; but feeling quiet today. Maybe will argue with you about it later.
Apologies , that probably was a little heavy handed of me.
Not a girl in a mag so no need for apology. Your statement gave the perception of blaming women, if even only certain women, for breast being considered sexual. You better explained in your response to PPK.
Oh GOD no that was not my intention apologies. :laugh:
-
DELAWARE BEACHES: TRANSGENDERED MEN GO TOPLESS IN REHOBOTH
Action called upsetting, not illegal.
By IRA PORTER The News Journal
Rehoboth Beach and the local Internet have been buzzing for days after a few transgendered men caused a stir on the beach over the holiday weekend by removing their tops and revealing their enhanced breasts.
Police there were called to the beach after lifeguards requested that the sunbathers replace their tops.
"Passers-by came up to the lifeguard and said they were alarmed and unhappy with the females showing their breasts," Police Chief Keith Banks said. "The lifeguard responded and saw that they were males."
Banks said police were called because the men originally refused to put their tops back on, but had consented before police arrived. Officers made sure the situation was under control, and no citations were issued.
Banks said it could have been difficult to issue a citation because Rehoboth law defines indecent exposure two ways:
"A male is guilty of indecent exposure if he exposes his genitals or buttocks under circumstances which he knows his conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm to another person.
"A female is guilty of indecent exposure if she exposes her genitals, breasts or buttocks under circumstances which she knows her conduct is likely to cause affront or alarm to another person."
So the men's behavior may have been upsetting, but it was not illegal.
"It is important to say that under Rehoboth law this was not against the law," Banks said. "In this case, they had male genitalia; therefore, they are not guilty of a crime."
Banks said police only enforce the laws and want to make sure that people who visit the beach are comfortable. Police have not had previous problems with this kind of behavior, and there is no need for a specific law to address it, Banks said.
Not all are so sure.
"We'll see if we need to address it," said Kathy McGuiness, one of Rehoboth's commissioners. McGuiness said this will be a topic at a town hall meeting next week.
"I can't speak for the mayor or anyone else. I can speak for myself because I am a commissioner. I hardly see us reversing the topless law. I don't think we are going to repeal it and allow women to go topless. Now if someone is going to go through the process of having implants, then they probably should think about following the laws of the person they would like to become," McGuiness said.
Steve Elkins, executive director of CAMP Rehoboth, a nonprofit based in Rehoboth that aims to promote a positive environment for the gay and lesbian community, essentially agreed.
"Technically it wasn't against the law. However, there are situations where people who -- because of feelings about their birth, because of who they are -- perceive themselves as females. I think we have to respect that, but on the other hand since they chose to identify themselves as females, they have to respect the law."
Elkins said he also thinks that it is horrific that some people who voiced outrage through radio talk shows and the Internet only have a problem because they were transgendered.
"Whoever called and complained (initially) complained about a woman having her top off," he said. "The people now trying to make something about the fact that they were also men, they are trying to have it both ways. You can't have it both ways."
lol, fucked up article. took me a minute to understand
good for them tho. the women I mean
-
Interesting article, and it shows that whatever tyhe laws are in the state/province/locale are, they have to be obeyed. Had they had a council ordinance where females could go topless as well, then there would have been no problem. The grey area existed because these people were male with female breasts, and therefore the people who complained thought they were breaking the law. What was a bit unnecessary, though, was inferring the complainants were trans people, virtually saying that they were troublemakers. The person who made that comment obviously let their mouth run away from them.
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Have to agree with the last sentence in the article. Would assume these people identify as female and exposed female breasts aren't allowed on the beach. If they're using the excuse of 'I'm not really a female' to get out of trouble for their behavior, then shame on them for being a detriment to who they are, and who they want other people to think they are.
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I actually see no problem with it, as they are exposing retarded laws.
what is stupid about the article is that it refers to them as men
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I actually see no problem with it, as they are exposing retarded laws.
what is stupid about the article is that it refers to them as men
I agree that they were exposing retarded laws, but referring to them as men isn't stupid since they revealed themselves as men to the police to not get into trouble. Had they identified themselves as women, they would have gone to jail for exposing their breasts on the beach.
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hmm, hadnt looked at it that way. I guess you have a point there
but at the same time, I don't think they shoulda had to go to jail for it, so using the retardedness of the laws (ie that because they have a penis they can get away with it) TO get away with it, is fair enough imo
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Nope, no pity. They want to be women viewed as women and hide behind the mantle of being men when it is convenient. A woman would have been arrested. They can not have it both ways,
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Nope, no pity. They want to be women viewed as women and hide behind the mantle of being men when it is convenient. A woman would have been arrested. They can not have it both ways,
Agreed. Didn't see the stupid law as the point at all; either they want to be treated as female by society or they don't.
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They wanted a chance to upset or offend and it seems it worked and then they hid behind the "we are men" mantle. If they were men or saw themselves as such they would not have enhanced their breasts. To look like women. There is no "We did not know" or "What breasts?...These things?" They deserved to get fined at minimum and their arses kicked by every Transwoman.
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They wanted a chance to upset or offend and it seems it worked and then they hid behind the "we are men" mantle. If they were men or saw themselves as such they would not have enhanced their breasts. To look like women. There is no "We did not know" or "What breasts?...These things?" They deserved to get fined at minimum and their arses kicked by every Transwoman.
Personally, i think the majority of women, trans or ootherwise would have obeyed the law in the first place, so as not to cause a problem. It is possible these 'dudes' were trying to shock and knew there would be complaints which would have been dismissed once the cops realised they were 'dudes', but for whatever reason, it brought publicity (some unwanted) on the topic of transgender and laws of councils as far as exposure. I mean, some fucked up people even see pregnant women in bikinis as being obscene, and they aren't exposing themselves.
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Boulder considered making women exposing their breasts against the law after the woman who gardened topless in a thong down the street from a school, but they decided that it would be unfair to make it a crime for women to show their breasts as long as it wasn't a crime for men to do it. I think that criminalizing topless women also could lead to women being persecuted for breastfeeding their babies and I think that's just wrong.
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Boulder considered making women exposing their breasts against the law after the woman who gardened topless in a thong down the street from a school, but they decided that it would be unfair to make it a crime for women to show their breasts as long as it wasn't a crime for men to do it. I think that criminalizing topless women also could lead to women being persecuted for breastfeeding their babies and I think that's just wrong.
Agreed. There's apparently a group of nuts who want women breastfeeding at restaurants to do it in the dunny. The answer the mums give is 'would you eat your food in there? So why are you expecting my child to do the same?'
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Boulder considered making women exposing their breasts against the law after the woman who gardened topless in a thong down the street from a school, but they decided that it would be unfair to make it a crime for women to show their breasts as long as it wasn't a crime for men to do it. I think that criminalizing topless women also could lead to women being persecuted for breastfeeding their babies and I think that's just wrong.
Agreed. There's apparently a group of nuts who want women breastfeeding at restaurants to do it in the dunny. The answer the mums give is 'would you eat your food in there? So why are you expecting my child to do the same?'
Or they expect the woman to cover her breastfeeding child's head with a blanket even though it might be 90 degrees because they are mortally afraid they might get a small glimpse of the side of her boob. If they get a glimpse of the tops of her breasts they think that's "cleavage" but heaven forbid they see a bit of the side.
::)
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Boulder considered making women exposing their breasts against the law after the woman who gardened topless in a thong down the street from a school, but they decided that it would be unfair to make it a crime for women to show their breasts as long as it wasn't a crime for men to do it. I think that criminalizing topless women also could lead to women being persecuted for breastfeeding their babies and I think that's just wrong.
Agreed. There's apparently a group of nuts who want women breastfeeding at restaurants to do it in the dunny. The answer the mums give is 'would you eat your food in there? So why are you expecting my child to do the same?'
Or they expect the woman to cover her breastfeeding child's head with a blanket even though it might be 90 degrees because they are mortally afraid they might get a small glimpse of the side of her boob. If they get a glimpse of the tops of her breasts they think that's "cleavage" but heaven forbid they see a bit of the side.
::)
These are probably the same people that would complain if they saw a doco on National Geographic about natives in Papua New Guinea.
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http://trannybestgalleries.com/ (http://trannybestgalleries.com/)
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http://trannybestgalleries.com/ (http://trannybestgalleries.com/)
What's the deal with this picture?
(http://195.178.4.87/trannybestgalleries.com/245151.jpg)
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http://trannybestgalleries.com/ (http://trannybestgalleries.com/)
What's the deal with this picture?
(http://195.178.4.87/trannybestgalleries.com/245151.jpg)
richard's BIG FUCKING PETER 20 years from now?
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erm, thanks for that callaway
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erm, thanks for that callaway
:LMAO:
You're welcome, but what do you think that thing is?
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fuck knows lol
don't wanna look at it again to try and work out either :P
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erm, thanks for that callaway
:LMAO:
You're welcome, but what do you think that thing is?
I think it's some kind of alien parasite. :zombiefuck:
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Hemmeroids :dunno:
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Hemmeroids :dunno:
They seem to be piled up then.
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it looks more like a prolapse.
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it looks more like a prolapse.
How are you feeling?
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Hemmeroids :dunno:
[/quote
Sticky ricky had haemerroids and liked posting pictures of his body parts while naked.....not implying anything of course :angel:
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it looks more like a prolapse.
How are you feeling?
i'm ok but sore. it's not as bad as I thought it would be but I am definitely hurting. I'll be ok :)
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it looks more like a prolapse.
How are you feeling?
i'm ok but sore. it's not as bad as I thought it would be but I am definitely hurting. I'll be ok :)
:hug:
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it looks more like a prolapse.
How are you feeling?
i'm ok but sore. it's not as bad as I thought it would be but I am definitely hurting. I'll be ok :)
:thumbup:
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:) thanks everyone. It just is kind of sore when I sit up straight ( like in the computer chair :S )
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I'm glad that you are OK, even though you are sore.
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I couldn't find the thread about the McDonald's customer's attack on the transgender woman, but here's the outcome:
A Maryland teenager was sentenced to five years in prison for her involvement in an attack on a transgender woman, Chrissy Polis, in McDonald's earlier this year. Teonna Brown, 19, pled guilty to a hate crime and first-degree assault. A McDonald's employee taped the attack and uploaded it to the Internet, where it quickly went viral. McDonald's issued a statement condemning the attack, but has not yet commented on the sentencing.
I've deleted parts that referred you to somewhere else to find out what happened to the 14 y/o accomplice and the employee who filmed it.
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:) thanks everyone. It just is kind of sore when I sit up straight ( like in the computer chair :S )
How is your pussy feeling now?
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much better :) I'm all healed up. I start back at work on monday.
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^ :viking:
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I've deleted parts that referred you to somewhere else to find out what happened to the 14 y/o accomplice and the employee who filmed it.
What happened to them?
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I've deleted parts that referred you to somewhere else to find out what happened to the 14 y/o accomplice and the employee who filmed it.
What happened to them?
The parts she deleted?
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The minor and the employee whol filmed it.
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Let's google and find out....
Polis described a demeaning attack in which Brown and the younger girl spat on her, called her names, kicked her and pulled out her hair.
The 14-year-old girl charged as a juvenile in the attack admitted her responsibility July 1. She remains in juvenile detention facility, prosecutors said.
Dunno about the one who filmed it, but the minor should be named and shamed. She committed an adult crime, and should be punished likewise.
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Here's a better article from the CBS Baltimore TV station.
Woman Sentenced To 5 Years In McDonald’s Transgender Attack
TOWSON, Md. (WJZ) –
It was a scandalous hate crime caught on camera that grabbed national headlines. Now one of the two young women accused of beating a transgender woman at a McDonald’s learns her punishment.
Teonna Brown was convicted of a hate crime and first-degree assault. She will spend five years in prison.
Over and over again, two teenage girls attack and beat Chrissy Polis inside a Baltimore County McDonald’s until she goes into a seizure — all while a laughing McDonald’s employee records the vicious attack on his cell phone.
The YouTube video sparked community outrage and landed Brown, 19, and her 14-year-old accomplice in jail. Brown is now sentenced to five years in prison.
Polis, who is transgender, chose not to appear in court for the sentencing. But her hero Vicki Thoms was.
“I just wanted to make sure that justice was served,” Thoms said
She can be seen in the video trying to stop the attack on Polis. She ending up punched in the eye herself.
“I thought she was going to die,” Thoms said.
In court, Brown tearfully offered remorse saying “I’m sorry. My mother did not raise me like this. I would really like to apologize to the victim, Miss Chrissy Polis.”
But that apology was not accepted, according to a letter Polis wrote to the judge.
“I felt like I was going to die that day,” the letter reads. “I continue to suffer seizures, bouts of crying, mental anguish and anxiety. I fear being alone. I have flashbacks about the attacks. I do not forgive them for what they did to me. “
Prosecutors say hate was clearly the motivation for the attack.
“I don’t really care who the victim is,” said Scott Shellenberger, Baltimore County State’s Attorney. “This wasn’t about a political statement. This was about prosecuting people for a heinous crime that they committed.”
“I just wish that there was more love in this world than hate,” Thoms said. “That’s what I keep saying every time you guys talk to me, and that’s what I hope she learns out of this whole thing, and everybody learns the same thing.”
The criminal case is over, but the civil case is just beginning. Polis is pursuing a claim against McDonald’s for failing to stop the beating and because it was its employee who video taped the incident while laughing about it. So far a settlement has not been reached.
The other suspect in the case already made an admission to the beating and remains locked up in juvenile detention.
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Thanks.
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Thanks.
You're welcome. It was tedious copying and pasting because of all the intervening pictures, ads, etc. Merely meant I had to do it in steps since I didn't want to bother deleting it from the post.
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Thanks.
You're welcome. It was tedious copying and pasting because of all the intervening pictures, ads, etc. Merely meant I had to do it in steps since I didn't want to bother deleting it from the post.
Thanks as well cos it puts a bit more perspective in as well.
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much better :) I'm all healed up. I start back at work on monday.
:2thumbsup: :plus:
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The person convicted was not crying because they were really sorry, they were crying because they got caught and the evidence was slam dunk solid. I hope that bitch "enjoys" prison!! :evillaugh:
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The person convicted was not crying because they were really sorry, they were crying because they got caught and the evidence was slam dunk solid. I hope that bitch "enjoys" prison!! :evillaugh:
Agreed, a guilty person will say a lot of shit to try to reduce time in prison. Fuck them
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The person convicted was not crying because they were really sorry, they were crying because they got caught and the evidence was slam dunk solid. I hope that bitch "enjoys" prison!! :evillaugh:
Agreed, a guilty person will say a lot of shit to try to reduce time in prison. Fuck them
:indeed: One of the hazards of my job is being a witness in court for cases like this. I respond, I see and next thing I know I'm summoned to provide testimony. And the people who were laughing at the scene certainly turn on the waterworks when facing the consequences. Fuck 'em indeed. Crocodile tears!! ::)
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Botty Burp
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:laugh:
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Botty Burp
cisexism... wait, wut?
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Botty Burp
cisexism
Don't make me cry Farnsworth :'(
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Botty Burp
cisexism
Don't make me cry Farnsworth :'(
I will harvest your tears for my eternal rapage machine so I conquer the universe. But yeah, I thought it was that wordfilter again, but apparently it gone now. :(
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Oh GA, is that you lurking in this thread as a guest? :zoinks:
Heh, it seems this thread is still getting attention.
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Never really see guest reading this except when there's recent posts.
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Never really see guest reading this except when there's recent posts.
That's why I thought I'd mention it. I noticed that coincidence too.
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No, didn't mean it that way. Meant, likely not GA, but regular members or lurkers just reading updated stuff on the forum.
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No, didn't mean it that way. Meant, likely not GA, but regular members or lurkers just reading updated stuff on the forum.
Oh okay, this thread would certainly attract attention by it's title.
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Botty Burp
cisexism
Don't make me cry Farnsworth :'(
I will harvest your tears for my eternal rapage machine so I conquer the universe. But yeah, I thought it was that wordfilter again, but apparently it gone now. :(
No you mispelled it , "botty-burp" has two "S's" :laugh:
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Hmmm botty-burp, lol there it is.