INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Parts on January 01, 2009, 07:52:59 PM
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The Register-Guardhttp://www.registerguard.com/
Kulongoski proposes shift from tax on gas to tax on miles driven
The Associated Press
SALEM — Gov. Ted Kulongoski says he will ask the Legislature to begin “a path to transition away from the gas tax as the central funding source for transportation” and to replace it with a mileage tax boosted by satellite technology.
A year ago, the Oregon Department of Transportation announced that it had demonstrated that a mileage tax could work.
The proposal is part of a transportation-related bill Kulongoski has filed for the upcoming session.
“As Oregonians drive less and demand more fuel-efficient vehicles, it is increasingly important that the state find a new way, other than the gas tax, to finance our transportation system,” according to the policies he has outlined online.
Kulongoski proposes to continue the work of the special task force that came up with and tested the idea of a mileage tax to replace the gas tax, the Albany Democrat-Herald reported Sunday.
The governor wants the task force “to partner with auto manufacturers to refine technology that would enable Oregonians to pay for the transportation system based on how many miles they drive.”
The online outline adds: “The governor is committed to ensuring that rural Oregon is not adversely affected and that privacy concerns are addressed.”
Critics had worried that the technology could be used to track where vehicles go, not just how far they travel, and that this information could be stored by the government.
In interviews with the Democrat-Herald and others, James Whitty, the Transportation Department official in charge of the project, tried to assure the public that that was not in the plans.
The task force’s final report came out in November 2007. It was based largely on a field test in which about 300 motorists in the Portland area and two service stations took part over 10 months, ending in March 2007.
A GPS-based system kept track of the in-state mileage driven by the volunteers.
When they bought fuel, a device in their vehicles was read, and they paid 1.2 cents a mile and got a refund of the state gas tax of 24 cents a gallon.
“The concept requires no transmission of vehicle travel locations,” the report said.
The report said that under the Oregon concept of the program, “ODOT would have no involvement in developing the on-vehicle devices, installing them in vehicles, maintaining them or having any other access to them except, perhaps, in situations involving tampering or similar fee evasion activities.”
Equipment for the Oregon test was developed at Oregon State University. Whitty said last year that it might take about $20 million to establish that the mileage tax is commercially viable.
Eventually, GPS devices would have to be built into cars, and fueling stations would have to be similarly equipped. The gas tax would stay in force — Kulongoski has proposed that it be raised 2 cents — for vehicles not equipped to pay the mileage tax.
Copyright © 2008 — The Register-Guard, Eugene, Oregon, USA
This is some scary shit if it starts there it will spread
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Yes. It is very scary.
Why would they want to penalize people who buy more fuel-efficient cars or people who live out in the country, miles away from a town? It makes no sense to me.
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I agree it's scary, and clearly a move against fuel-efficient vehicles. But why would it penalize people who live in the country? They'd still have to do the same amount of driving, whether it was taxed by the gallon or the mile.
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When the government thought about introducing a scheme like that over here 3 million signed a petiton against it and it was scrapped. Its a shame really - I thought it was a really good idea, provided they implemented it correctly.
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This is scary indeed, I agree with the critics and then some that it sounds like a secret means to track people's driving in reality. What's more insulting is that you're paying for it too in a tax.
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This is completely bone-headed. A person who drives for 20km in a small, fuel-efficient car not only has a smaller environmental impact and uses up less of the limited and dwindling oil reserves, but also causes vastly less erosion of the roads than a person who drives the same distance in a large SUV. 'Distance driven' is a terrible metric to base a tax on; 'fuel consumed' is much better, since it roughly correlates with the weight of the vehicle multiplied by the distance driven, and thus the damage caused to the road surface, it provides an additional incentive to conserve a limited resource, the consumption of which is damaging to the environment and it even takes into account infrastructure pressure from congestion, since fuel efficiency is lower in congested conditions.
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I agree it's scary, and clearly a move against fuel-efficient vehicles. But why would it penalize people who live in the country? They'd still have to do the same amount of driving, whether it was taxed by the gallon or the mile.
If it's taxed by the gallon, they can reduce the impact of the tax by driving a more efficient vehicle, whereas if it's taxed by the mile, their options are more limited, since changing a car is easier than changing a job or a house. Also, although people in the country need to travel further than people in a town or city, they use less fuel per mile due to driving more on open roads rather than stop-and-start city traffic, and this change would eliminate that advantage.
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YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU! YOU ARE FREE TO DO AS WE TELL YOU!
This is Big Brother watching you watching telescreen.
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WAR IS PEACE!
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH!
SURVEILLANCE IS INTEGRITY!
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IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! YOU CAN'T BE TRUSTED WITH DANGEROUS THINGS LIKE GUNS!
OR CARS!
OR ALCOHOL!
OR TOBACCO!
OR FIRECRACKERS!
OR FAT FOOD!
OR BICYCLES!
OR PLASTIC BAGS!
OR CHEWING GUM!
OR CANDY!
OR MATCHES!
BIG BROTHER KNOWS BEST AND BIG BROTHER LOVES YOU!
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It's not just the issue of the tax. They will know where you are always. In the NYC region the have metro card for the tolls it was started as an easy quick way to pay them but now the records are used in court ad police investigations
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It's time to revolt. You have guns in the USA but you don't do anything.
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The ones who even come up with such proposals should be killed, so that they'd see that the people don't tolerate to be slaves.
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It's not just the issue of the tax. They will know where you are always. In the NYC region the have metro card for the tolls it was started as an easy quick way to pay them but now the records are used in court ad police investigations
This is a very good point.
They use cell phones to pinpoint people's general locations for criminal investigations as well. If your cell phone is on, even if you aren't talking on it, its signal bounces off the nearest cell phone towers. So if you said you were home when a crime happened somewhere else but your cell phone signal bounced off a tower close to the crime scene at the time the crime happened, they could see that you were lying.
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Why, why, why are people just accepting this?
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What makes you think they are?
Oregon is a very strange place.
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From what I've heard Oregon used to be very good 100 years back. There weren't many laws at all.
People must protest and, if that won't help, do something drastic.
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It's not just the issue of the tax. They will know where you are always. In the NYC region the have metro card for the tolls it was started as an easy quick way to pay them but now the records are used in court ad police investigations
This is a very good point.
They use cell phones to pinpoint people's general locations for criminal investigations as well. If your cell phone is on, even if you aren't talking on it, its signal bounces off the nearest cell phone towers. So if you said you were home when a crime happened somewhere else but your cell phone signal bounced off a tower close to the crime scene at the time the crime happened, they could see that you were lying.
The London congestion charge zone works through a number-plate recognition system that's hooked up to the many, many surveillance cameras in the zone, and given the enormous number of surveillance cameras already in the UK, it would be easy for the government to track the vast majority of vehicles without the need for each vehicle to have it's own tracking system installed. They're testing face and behaviour recognition systems too, which at the moment can detect if a person is behaving aggressively and flag it for further observation, and it's going to become quite scary when they can track everybody's movements through face recognition.
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Do you still think that Francis E. Dec was completely mad? ::)
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Yes. Although surveillance is a growing problem in contemporary society, Francis E. Dec was still a ravingly psychotic schizophrenic.
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But he was kind of claivoyant, wasn't he? Except for the brain bank cities on the moon and the Frankenstein controls everything has proven right. And just wait until you have a compulsory VeriChip implant; then you'll have the Frankenstein controls.
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He wasn't clairvoyant; his delusions just bore some coincidental and minor similarities to modern developments and had more to do with the pathology of schizophrenia than any insight on Dec's part. It's common for schizophrenics to experience paranoia, egomania and a sensation that they're being controlled by an outside force, and it was these experiences that shaped Dec's delusions; not clairvoyance or an extrapolation of future social and technological trends.
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It's time to revolt. You have guns in the USA but you don't do anything.
::)
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Do you still think that Francis E. Dec was completely mad? ::)
Yes.
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But he was kind of claivoyant, wasn't he? Except for the brain bank cities on the moon and the Frankenstein controls everything has proven right. And just wait until you have a compulsory VeriChip implant; then you'll have the Frankenstein controls.
You're as mad as he was.
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It's time to revolt. You have guns in the USA but you don't do anything.
::)
Already David Henry Thoreau thought this was sad, and that was more than 150 years ago.
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But he was kind of claivoyant, wasn't he? Except for the brain bank cities on the moon and the Frankenstein controls everything has proven right. And just wait until you have a compulsory VeriChip implant; then you'll have the Frankenstein controls.
You're as mad as he was.
So what is this? Doesn't it exist or do you believe in the bullshit that it was designed for the little man's safety?
VeriChip (http://www.verichipcorp.com/)
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But he was kind of claivoyant, wasn't he? Except for the brain bank cities on the moon and the Frankenstein controls everything has proven right. And just wait until you have a compulsory VeriChip implant; then you'll have the Frankenstein controls.
You're as mad as he was.
So what is this? Doesn't it exist or do you believe in the bullshit that it was designed for the little man's safety?
VeriChip (http://www.verichipcorp.com/)
The way I read the website, it is currently being used for Alzheimer's patients or to identify remains in the aftermath of Katrina, but I can see the potential that something like this could be abused, so I think I see your point.
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I'm not one whit interested in the ability to identify me after a tsunami and if I get Alzheimer I don't want any stinking VeriChip but Dr. Kevorkian.
And anyone who tries to implant something like that with force in me will pay with their worthless henchman life or their health.
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No chip for me. . Chips could be abused even hack a day web site had a hack on how to read and reproduce them
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It's time to revolt. You have guns in the USA but you don't do anything.
::)
Already David Henry Thoreau thought this was sad, and that was more than 150 years ago.
::)
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But he was kind of claivoyant, wasn't he? Except for the brain bank cities on the moon and the Frankenstein controls everything has proven right. And just wait until you have a compulsory VeriChip implant; then you'll have the Frankenstein controls.
You're as mad as he was.
So what is this? Doesn't it exist or do you believe in the bullshit that it was designed for the little man's safety?
VeriChip (http://www.verichipcorp.com/)
No, I just think you're mad.
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Ostrich, ostrich, ostrich...
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Mad, mad, mad...
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WADR, Odeon, you don't live in the US and so you don't totally know how things are here. Since Bush took office, we've gone from being a reasonably strong country with a reasonably strong economy to a country scared of its own shadow and an economy shot through with holes. And I don't see any indication that Obama will change things for the better, at least not soon. He's not willing to end the War on Drugs, or even legalize marijuana (which would help the economy immeasurably if sold legally and taxed); he hasn't said if he'll revoke the sunset provisions of the Patriot Act, and he seems to think government is the solution to the economy. A New New Deal will only prolong the current depression by taking more $ out of the hands of taxpayers and businessmen, which means the former will be unable to purchase more goods and services and the latter will have to cut jobs and put less money into R & D.
So, until I see more signs that Amerika is regaining its spirit, I'm going to march in the street and keep my powder dry. If that makes me mad, then throw me into the mental health system and fill me full of Thorazine. Won't change a damn thing.
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:plus:
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WADR, Odeon, you don't live in the US and so you don't totally know how things are here. Since Bush took office, we've gone from being a reasonably strong country with a reasonably strong economy to a country scared of its own shadow and an economy shot through with holes. And I don't see any indication that Obama will change things for the better, at least not soon. He's not willing to end the War on Drugs, or even legalize marijuana (which would help the economy immeasurably if sold legally and taxed); he hasn't said if he'll revoke the sunset provisions of the Patriot Act, and he seems to think government is the solution to the economy. A New New Deal will only prolong the current depression by taking more $ out of the hands of taxpayers and businessmen, which means the former will be unable to purchase more goods and services and the latter will have to cut jobs and put less money into R & D.
So, until I see more signs that Amerika is regaining its spirit, I'm going to march in the street and keep my powder dry. If that makes me mad, then throw me into the mental health system and fill me full of Thorazine. Won't change a damn thing.
:agreed:
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Herr Ostrich thinks that if he just sits there in his little village this will all blow past. And if it won't, he hopes that he will at least not be there anymore when the real tyrrany is erected. ::)
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Obey your master!
Master!
Master!
Master!
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Obey your master!
Master!
Master!
Master!
YES that's the idea
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You will obey me. You WILL OBEY ME!
God rest ye, Mr Delgado.
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You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
You can't be trusted to take care of yourself!
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Obey...or else...!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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WADR, Odeon, you don't live in the US and so you don't totally know how things are here. Since Bush took office, we've gone from being a reasonably strong country with a reasonably strong economy to a country scared of its own shadow and an economy shot through with holes. And I don't see any indication that Obama will change things for the better, at least not soon. He's not willing to end the War on Drugs, or even legalize marijuana (which would help the economy immeasurably if sold legally and taxed); he hasn't said if he'll revoke the sunset provisions of the Patriot Act, and he seems to think government is the solution to the economy. A New New Deal will only prolong the current depression by taking more $ out of the hands of taxpayers and businessmen, which means the former will be unable to purchase more goods and services and the latter will have to cut jobs and put less money into R & D.
So, until I see more signs that Amerika is regaining its spirit, I'm going to march in the street and keep my powder dry. If that makes me mad, then throw me into the mental health system and fill me full of Thorazine. Won't change a damn thing.
I'm not saying you are mad. I'm saying Lit is. I didn't mean to offend you in any way, Wandrew, and apologise if I did.
Lit, however, is mad, and about the last person here I would trust with a weapon of any kind.
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Herr Ostrich thinks that if he just sits there in his little village this will all blow past. And if it won't, he hopes that he will at least not be there anymore when the real tyrrany is erected. ::)
You really are quite mad.
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So what do you intend to do about the Big Brother state?
1. Nothing
2. Nothing
3. Nothing
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So what do you intend to do about the Big Brother state?
1. Nothing
2. Nothing
3. Nothing
4. The things you're too stupid to try.
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You mean vote "liberal"?
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I'd explain but you wouldn't understand.
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I'll do nothing but I'll pretend to.
Fixed.
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You're so witty.
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I'd explain but you wouldn't understand.
I would very much like to hear your attempt at explanation here.
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He has none.
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I'd explain but you wouldn't understand.
I would very much like to hear your attempt at explanation here.
Not interested in trying. There's no point.
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I'd explain but you wouldn't understand.
I would very much like to hear your attempt at explanation here.
Not interested in trying. There's no point.
Unfortunately for those who could learn a thing or two, they step on their own dicks trying to look smart (while they end up just looking foolish) and we who could actually offer them some guidance lose interest in them because of their posturing.
:violin:
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Nobody's mentioned anything about the Big Sister state yet.
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Nobody's mentioned anything about the Big Sister state yet.
Is that the one where she buys you candy when she gets her cigarettes so you would tell mom :P
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I'd explain but you wouldn't understand.
I would very much like to hear your attempt at explanation here.
Not interested in trying. There's no point.
Unfortunately for those who could learn a thing or two, they step on their own dicks trying to look smart (while they end up just looking foolish) and we who could actually offer them some guidance lose interest in them because of their posturing.
:violin:
Stepping on your own dick is usually very foolish. :LMAO:
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Nobody's mentioned anything about the Big Sister state yet.
Actually, I have, but it was about as accepted as a fart bubble in a shallow pool.
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I'd explain but you wouldn't understand.
I would very much like to hear your attempt at explanation here.
Not interested in trying. There's no point.
Unfortunately for those who could learn a thing or two, they step on their own dicks trying to look smart (while they end up just looking foolish) and we who could actually offer them some guidance lose interest in them because of their posturing.
:violin:
Stepping on your own dick is usually very foolish. :LMAO:
True, but sad reality remains as a bruise upon their most positive prospects, until they learn the humility of knowing that their "quick" answers only create ever more profound questions, which they have yet to consider.
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WADR, Odeon, you don't live in the US and so you don't totally know how things are here. Since Bush took office, we've gone from being a reasonably strong country with a reasonably strong economy to a country scared of its own shadow and an economy shot through with holes. And I don't see any indication that Obama will change things for the better, at least not soon. He's not willing to end the War on Drugs, or even legalize marijuana (which would help the economy immeasurably if sold legally and taxed); he hasn't said if he'll revoke the sunset provisions of the Patriot Act, and he seems to think government is the solution to the economy. A New New Deal will only prolong the current depression by taking more $ out of the hands of taxpayers and businessmen, which means the former will be unable to purchase more goods and services and the latter will have to cut jobs and put less money into R & D.
So, until I see more signs that Amerika is regaining its spirit, I'm going to march in the street and keep my powder dry. If that makes me mad, then throw me into the mental health system and fill me full of Thorazine. Won't change a damn thing.
I'm not saying you are mad. I'm saying Lit is. I didn't mean to offend you in any way, Wandrew, and apologise if I did.
Lit, however, is mad, and about the last person here I would trust with a weapon of any kind.
I didn't think you were calling me mad, Odeon. But it seems like every time Lit raises a point you either say "He's nuts" or "There's other ways" and then you don't explain yourself. Obviously I don't agree with Lit a lot of the time: his theories about Muslims are garbage and his admiration of Nazi Germany and its leaders is asinine. But I believe he IS right about the US turning into a police state, because I've seen and read about it with my own eyes.
I don't much like the idea of a violent revolution either, but I have never seen voting make significant changes. Lots of people opposed Iraq War II; that didn't stop it. Lots of people think pot should be legal; it isn't. Lots of Americans (and at least one brave Brit who died last week) thought Bush/Cheney should have been impeached and/or hauled before the World Court for crimes against humanity; the cowardly Democrat-led Congress took impeachment off the table, first thing. I've gotten tired of fighting for rights I should have had long ago. I've got a lot on my plate and don't have the time I used to have. So if it takes violence to convince these twits that we mean business, then so be it.
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"To echo the late economist Jude Wanniski, there's the Mommy Party (Democrats) which wants to use government to take care of all our needs, and the Daddy Party (Republicans), which is more interested in beating up our neighbors and keeping us in line."--Steven Greenhut, senior editorial writer/columnist, Orange County Register
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Interesting parallel here, from the wikipedia entry for BABYLON 5:
The Vorlons represent an authoritarian philosophy: you will do what we tell you to, because we tell you to do it. The Vorlon question, "Who are you?" focuses on identity as a catalyst for shaping personal goals; the intention is not to solicit a "correct" answer, but to "tear down the artifices we construct around ourselves until we're left facing ourselves, not our roles." The Shadows represent a philosophy of evolution through fire, of sowing the seeds of conflict in order to engender progress. The question the Shadows ask is "What do you want?" In contrast to the Vorlons, they place personal desire and ambition first, using it to shape identity, encouraging conflict between groups who choose to serve their own glory or profit.
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Interesting parallel here, from the wikipedia entry for BABYLON 5:
The Vorlons represent an authoritarian philosophy: you will do what we tell you to, because we tell you to do it. The Vorlon question, "Who are you?" focuses on identity as a catalyst for shaping personal goals; the intention is not to solicit a "correct" answer, but to "tear down the artifices we construct around ourselves until we're left facing ourselves, not our roles." The Shadows represent a philosophy of evolution through fire, of sowing the seeds of conflict in order to engender progress. The question the Shadows ask is "What do you want?" In contrast to the Vorlons, they place personal desire and ambition first, using it to shape identity, encouraging conflict between groups who choose to serve their own glory or profit.
My son is obsessed with B5. (I have it all on DVD) He is ten and I have had many conversations to this effect (none as eloquent as this articlist poster, but FUCK!!) and his perspective, from a child's eye view knocks me backward, sometimes.
One of his most commonly instigated discussions though, revolves around another confusion, "Why does the advanced race of Minbari still have three castes?" I have tried to explain how the equilateral triangle is the strongest unit of construction. He can not seem to conceive of a balance between the three forces, however. He is more wise than he appears.
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The cowardly French built their Eiffel Tower in triangels. :autism:
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WADR, Odeon, you don't live in the US and so you don't totally know how things are here. Since Bush took office, we've gone from being a reasonably strong country with a reasonably strong economy to a country scared of its own shadow and an economy shot through with holes. And I don't see any indication that Obama will change things for the better, at least not soon. He's not willing to end the War on Drugs, or even legalize marijuana (which would help the economy immeasurably if sold legally and taxed); he hasn't said if he'll revoke the sunset provisions of the Patriot Act, and he seems to think government is the solution to the economy. A New New Deal will only prolong the current depression by taking more $ out of the hands of taxpayers and businessmen, which means the former will be unable to purchase more goods and services and the latter will have to cut jobs and put less money into R & D.
So, until I see more signs that Amerika is regaining its spirit, I'm going to march in the street and keep my powder dry. If that makes me mad, then throw me into the mental health system and fill me full of Thorazine. Won't change a damn thing.
I'm not saying you are mad. I'm saying Lit is. I didn't mean to offend you in any way, Wandrew, and apologise if I did.
Lit, however, is mad, and about the last person here I would trust with a weapon of any kind.
I didn't think you were calling me mad, Odeon. But it seems like every time Lit raises a point you either say "He's nuts" or "There's other ways" and then you don't explain yourself. Obviously I don't agree with Lit a lot of the time: his theories about Muslims are garbage and his admiration of Nazi Germany and its leaders is asinine. But I believe he IS right about the US turning into a police state, because I've seen and read about it with my own eyes.
I don't much like the idea of a violent revolution either, but I have never seen voting make significant changes. Lots of people opposed Iraq War II; that didn't stop it. Lots of people think pot should be legal; it isn't. Lots of Americans (and at least one brave Brit who died last week) thought Bush/Cheney should have been impeached and/or hauled before the World Court for crimes against humanity; the cowardly Democrat-led Congress took impeachment off the table, first thing. I've gotten tired of fighting for rights I should have had long ago. I've got a lot on my plate and don't have the time I used to have. So if it takes violence to convince these twits that we mean business, then so be it.
I don't disagree with you and Lit--the US is more of a police state these days than it used to be. I suppose the Patriot Act is to blame for part of it but there is more.
See, I don't think that Lit is wrong about everything. Of course he isn't. But he doesn't stop there. His solution is always to shoot the police and anyone with any kind of power, and that's just mad.
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Have we passed up the likelihood that he is just making posts to tune us all up so we sing HIS song?
:headbang2:
Surely NO educated man believes his bullshit.
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Have we passed up the likelihood that he is just making posts to tune us all up so we sing HIS song?
:headbang2:
Surely NO educated man believes his bullshit.
I wouldn't think so either. :-\
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8)
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WADR, Odeon, you don't live in the US and so you don't totally know how things are here. Since Bush took office, we've gone from being a reasonably strong country with a reasonably strong economy to a country scared of its own shadow and an economy shot through with holes. And I don't see any indication that Obama will change things for the better, at least not soon. He's not willing to end the War on Drugs, or even legalize marijuana (which would help the economy immeasurably if sold legally and taxed); he hasn't said if he'll revoke the sunset provisions of the Patriot Act, and he seems to think government is the solution to the economy. A New New Deal will only prolong the current depression by taking more $ out of the hands of taxpayers and businessmen, which means the former will be unable to purchase more goods and services and the latter will have to cut jobs and put less money into R & D.
So, until I see more signs that Amerika is regaining its spirit, I'm going to march in the street and keep my powder dry. If that makes me mad, then throw me into the mental health system and fill me full of Thorazine. Won't change a damn thing.
I'm not saying you are mad. I'm saying Lit is. I didn't mean to offend you in any way, Wandrew, and apologise if I did.
Lit, however, is mad, and about the last person here I would trust with a weapon of any kind.
I didn't think you were calling me mad, Odeon. But it seems like every time Lit raises a point you either say "He's nuts" or "There's other ways" and then you don't explain yourself. Obviously I don't agree with Lit a lot of the time: his theories about Muslims are garbage and his admiration of Nazi Germany and its leaders is asinine. But I believe he IS right about the US turning into a police state, because I've seen and read about it with my own eyes.
I don't much like the idea of a violent revolution either, but I have never seen voting make significant changes. Lots of people opposed Iraq War II; that didn't stop it. Lots of people think pot should be legal; it isn't. Lots of Americans (and at least one brave Brit who died last week) thought Bush/Cheney should have been impeached and/or hauled before the World Court for crimes against humanity; the cowardly Democrat-led Congress took impeachment off the table, first thing. I've gotten tired of fighting for rights I should have had long ago. I've got a lot on my plate and don't have the time I used to have. So if it takes violence to convince these twits that we mean business, then so be it.
I don't disagree with you and Lit--the US is more of a police state these days than it used to be. I suppose the Patriot Act is to blame for part of it but there is more.
See, I don't think that Lit is wrong about everything. Of course he isn't. But he doesn't stop there. His solution is always to shoot the police and anyone with any kind of power, and that's just mad.
Problem is, we're running out of alternatives. Cops in the US are running amok. There are literally hundreds of reports of them shooting dogs and most of the time the dogs in question were either running away or saying "ooh a new friend!" And even if the dogs were attacking, there are better ways to handle an attacking dog than to shoot it dead: mace, trank guns, etc. And there's hundreds of reports of innocent civilians being killed, and each time the public complains and the cops in question go back on duty after being briefly suspended with pay. Which just goes to show that, in this country, if you're a cop and you shoot a dog or a person, by and large you get off. If you're a civilian and you do the same, by and large you go to jail.
I agree that the Patriot Act is not the whole problem; a number of bills that preceded it--just as the Anti-Terrorism Act signed by Clinton--helped lay the groundwork for it. And like the Patriot Act, it was rushed through Congress before anyone had a chance to really read it. This whole thing really started with the War on Drugs, which opened the door for no-knock warrants, wiretaps, etc. As William S Burroughs said, "Drug laws are a pretext to extend police powers." So when Bush came along with the PA and the War on Some Terrorists, he had a nice solid foundation to build on--thanks in part, BTW, to "democratic" leaders like Johnson and Clinton, as well as Reagan and George I.
I REALLY hate to say this, but maybe if public officials had to fear physical injury as well as verbal wrath, they MIGHT act in a less fascist manner. It's easy to ignore letters, phone calls and e-mails; not so easy to ignore machine guns.
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Machine guns for the win! :litigious: :arrr: :arrr: :arrr: :tooledup:
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I REALLY, REALLY hope I'm wrong, BTW. I just don't see this democracy working very well, and no signs of improvement. So as Lincoln said, it comes down to alter or abolish.
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It won't improve, oy vey. :(
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Meantime, it's 4:20 where I am and boy would I love to be smoking a J rightnow....
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I REALLY, REALLY hope I'm wrong, BTW. I just don't see this democracy working very well, and no signs of improvement. So as Lincoln said, it comes down to alter or abolish.
All we can do now is hope and prepare for the worst >:(
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I REALLY, REALLY hope I'm wrong, BTW. I just don't see this democracy working very well, and no signs of improvement. So as Lincoln said, it comes down to alter or abolish.
All we can do now is hope and prepare for the worst >:(
Be brave. The free world depends on you.
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I REALLY hate to say this, but maybe if public officials had to fear physical injury as well as verbal wrath, they MIGHT act in a less fascist manner. It's easy to ignore letters, phone calls and e-mails; not so easy to ignore machine guns.
Unfortunately that particular incentive never works. Would you be more efficient at what you do if you had a gun pointed to your head?
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No. But these numbnuts have the guns pointed at US and are calling the shots. This is no longer a participatory democracy. I was really hoping Ron Paul would get the Republican nod, even though I knew he had no chance. I would just like them to know what it's like to be Joe the Plumber and have THEIR doors kicked in by SWAT thugs at 3 AM because either a) someone phoned in a false report of a drug lab at their address or b) the cops got the wrong address to begin with. Let them find out what it's like to be sitting at gunpoint with their dead dog(s) or cat(s) undergoing rigor mortis in front of them. Explain THAT to your kids. "Well, Daddy and his friends in Congress really, really wanted to stop people doing drugs. Unfortunately, we kinda went overboard...." They need to know what it's like to have their fascist laws implemented on THEM.
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
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The decision makers? Oh, we'd dose 'em and put 'em in camps. Hey, it worked in the movies. :P
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The decision makers? Oh, we'd dose 'em and put 'em in camps. Hey, it worked in the movies. :P
:laugh:
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
Ever heard of sniper rifles? Bombs? :eyebrows: :tooledup: :arrr:
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
Ever heard of sniper rifles? Bombs? :eyebrows: :tooledup: :arrr:
Yes. They won't change anything. A society based on fear will not work in the long run.
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
Ever heard of sniper rifles? Bombs? :eyebrows: :tooledup: :arrr:
Yes. They won't change anything. A society based on fear will not work in the long run.
I agree but it also makes me worry more about the future here as it is being turned into a society based on fear. Fear of terrorists , drugs and violence are being used to justify more and more. Even I finch when I hear the sound of sires and dread the thought of police ever arriving at my door. Not that I do or have anything illegal but they are looking at everyone and everything different now. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the wave of the future. I only hope to be living far enough out in the country by the time it gets even worse
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It happens in Europe too. I know guys in the UK and Germany, who have had the cops searching their homes becuase they had salpeter (which is perfectly legal) in their homes.
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It happens in Europe too. I know guys in the UK and Germany, who have had the cops searching their homes becuase they had salpeter (which is perfectly legal) in their homes.
I have far more than just that too but like i said all legal but they would make a big deal of it
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"Love your country, the country hates you in disguise.
Work hard, don't ask why.
Follow the law, don't ask why.
Watch TV, don't ask why.
Read a book, but don't ponder over it.
If you have some spare time, don't think, watch TV.
Don't think, switch channel.
Build walls, lock the world out, censor.
Switch channel.
Exchange feeling for plastic, opinion for shrugged shoulders.
Don't hide anything, have nothing of your own.
Always let them look into your life.
Let them know what's best.
Let them decide.
Let them feel.
Don't think, long live Sweden!
Long live Sweden, in skiing, in songs, in the king's speeches.
Long live Sweden, don't ask why.
Love your country, the country hates you in disguise."
From a Swede on a Swedish forum.
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It happens in Europe too. I know guys in the UK and Germany, who have had the cops searching their homes becuase they had salpeter (which is perfectly legal) in their homes.
So I guess they won't be prescribing saltpetre to sex offenders any time soon?
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It happens in Europe too. I know guys in the UK and Germany, who have had the cops searching their homes becuase they had salpeter (which is perfectly legal) in their homes.
So I guess they won't be prescribing saltpetre to sex offenders any time soon?
No, they give them other drugs. Though salpeter (potassium nitrate) is really a harmless chemical. We even have it in the fish for Christmas in Sweden.
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
Ever heard of sniper rifles? Bombs? :eyebrows: :tooledup: :arrr:
Yes. They won't change anything. A society based on fear will not work in the long run.
I agree but it also makes me worry more about the future here as it is being turned into a society based on fear. Fear of terrorists , drugs and violence are being used to justify more and more. Even I finch when I hear the sound of sires and dread the thought of police ever arriving at my door. Not that I do or have anything illegal but they are looking at everyone and everything different now. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the wave of the future. I only hope to be living far enough out in the country by the time it gets even worse
I hope things will get better. The US didn't use to be like that.
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
Ever heard of sniper rifles? Bombs? :eyebrows: :tooledup: :arrr:
Yes. They won't change anything. A society based on fear will not work in the long run.
I agree but it also makes me worry more about the future here as it is being turned into a society based on fear. Fear of terrorists , drugs and violence are being used to justify more and more. Even I finch when I hear the sound of sires and dread the thought of police ever arriving at my door. Not that I do or have anything illegal but they are looking at everyone and everything different now. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the wave of the future. I only hope to be living far enough out in the country by the time it gets even worse
I hope things will get better. The US didn't use to be like that.
Some areas are worse than others I live only an hour from NYC and the cops here are very jumpy and militaristic
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When did you really start noticing the difference?
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Yeah, I see your point, but gunpoint would only reach the front guys, not the decision makers.
Ever heard of sniper rifles? Bombs? :eyebrows: :tooledup: :arrr:
Yes. They won't change anything. A society based on fear will not work in the long run.
I agree but it also makes me worry more about the future here as it is being turned into a society based on fear. Fear of terrorists , drugs and violence are being used to justify more and more. Even I finch when I hear the sound of sires and dread the thought of police ever arriving at my door. Not that I do or have anything illegal but they are looking at everyone and everything different now. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the wave of the future. I only hope to be living far enough out in the country by the time it gets even worse
I hope things will get better. The US didn't use to be like that.
"You know, this used to be a Hell of a good country. I can't understand what's gone wrong with it."--George Hansen (Jack Nicholson) in EASY RIDER
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When did you really start noticing the difference?
I started noticing it in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when I got involved with marijuana legalization. But I think it really got going when Nixon declared his War on Drugs back in 1971. That's when a lot of drugs like pot got reclassified as "controlled dangerous substances:" basically, pot ended up being equated to heroin. Hence the gateway theory, the increase in no-knock warrants, warrantless wiretaps, drug tests, and asset forfeiture cases. Reagan, Bush I , Clinton and Bush II built on the police apparatus constructed to fight the War on Some Drugs for the War on Some Terrorists, leading (inevitably) to the violation of Posse Comitatus and the Third Amendment when Johnny comes marching home again. Again, I quote Burroughs: "Drug laws are a pretext to extend police powers." Another favorite quote from WSB: "When the cops start asking questions, there's no stopping them."
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Sweden was always kind of semi-Soviet for me, but warrantless taping and such have become legal just the last few years. But the state always interfered in almost anything some way or the other.