INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Yuri Bezmenov on June 18, 2016, 04:25:24 PM
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I keep hearing about this referendum but have had a hard time picking out the best arguments for and against.
What do you You're-a-peeins have to say on the issue??
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Fuck Brexit >:(
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Brexit, in my mind, is mostly an emotional argument by people with misguided notions of "independence". I have yet to see a rational argument for Brexit but quite a few against it that highlight the risks involved.
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I keep hearing about this referendum but have had a hard time picking out the best arguments for and against.
What do you You're-a-peeins have to say on the issue??
There you go again. So clever :congrats:
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiUhqkLWgAAR_xB.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClD91OEUsAAv6S3.jpg)
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It basically reads like a powerful bargaining tool with the EU regardless of the voting results, and an actual departure would take years of negotiations and changing of existing laws.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClD91OEUsAAv6S3.jpg
Well it's either that or cultural suicide.
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Where's Benjiman?
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Well it's either that or cultural suicide.
The UK would have to exit the UN to avoid multiculturalism. Many developed countries are projected to become too old and thus economically unsustainable over the next couple of generations due to low birth rates and higher life expectancy. The UN has had long term replacement migration initiatives in place since at least 2000. The US is unaffected by this particular initiative because it already takes in more than enough immigrants to maintain a sufficient young working class.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
No. It isn't. It is merely a measure of public opinion and has nothing legally binding attached to it.
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Brexit, in my mind, is mostly an emotional argument by people with misguided notions of "independence". I have yet to see a rational argument for Brexit but quite a few against it that highlight the risks involved.
The Remain campaign is painting the Brexit campaign as an emotional and racist thing, but there are logical arguements which are not being addressed.
Sovereignty.
Further integration.
The proposed EU Army which will undermine NATO.
The undemocratic nature of the EU lawmakers.
The culture of secret negotiations, particularly TTIP.
Immigration/population explosion which has seen rents for the bottom part of society double in real terms in the last decade.
None of the above are being addressed by the Remain campaign, who just point there finger at anyone who argues with them and call them idiots and racists. Hence the middle ground is left to the right wing.
The reality is that plenty of politicians want this but are too afraid to back it in case the vote fails. Again, leaving the middle ground to the right wing.
All in all, the new entries to the EU aren't exactly rich and aren't really raising the averages any, and Britain - as one of only two net contributors to the EU - is supposed to roll over and spunk up more cash to bail out people who are only in a mess because the EMF (read Germany and France) has fucked them over.
But make that an emotional arguement if you want.
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Well it's either that or cultural suicide.
The UK would have to exit the UN to avoid multiculturalism. Many developed countries are projected to become too old and thus economically unsustainable over the next couple of generations due to low birth rates and higher life expectancy. The UN has had long term replacement migration initiatives in place since at least 2000. The US is unaffected by this particular initiative because it already takes in more than enough immigrants to maintain a sufficient young working class.
While completely true this statement I fail to see why you had to say it. Multiculturalism is not and never has been an issue in the UK. While we have some idiots here, overall the UK is very well integrated in terms of multiculturalism.
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Brexit, in my mind, is mostly an emotional argument by people with misguided notions of "independence". I have yet to see a rational argument for Brexit but quite a few against it that highlight the risks involved.
The Remain campaign is painting the Brexit campaign as an emotional and racist thing, but there are logical arguements which are not being addressed.
Sovereignty.
Further integration.
The proposed EU Army which will undermine NATO.
The undemocratic nature of the EU lawmakers.
The culture of secret negotiations, particularly TTIP.
Immigration/population explosion which has seen rents for the bottom part of society double in real terms in the last decade.
None of the above are being addressed by the Remain campaign, who just point there finger at anyone who argues with them and call them idiots and racists. Hence the middle ground is left to the right wing.
The reality is that plenty of politicians want this but are too afraid to back it in case the vote fails. Again, leaving the middle ground to the right wing.
All in all, the new entries to the EU aren't exactly rich and aren't really raising the averages any, and Britain - as one of only two net contributors to the EU - is supposed to roll over and spunk up more cash to bail out people who are only in a mess because the EMF (read Germany and France) has fucked them over.
But make that an emotional arguement if you want.
I'm not making it into anything. I'm observing and the impression I get is one of an emotional argument, not a rational one. Me, I think Brexit is financial madness.
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Brexit, in my mind, is mostly an emotional argument by people with misguided notions of "independence". I have yet to see a rational argument for Brexit but quite a few against it that highlight the risks involved.
The Remain campaign is painting the Brexit campaign as an emotional and racist thing, but there are logical arguements which are not being addressed.
Sovereignty.
Further integration.
The proposed EU Army which will undermine NATO.
The undemocratic nature of the EU lawmakers.
The culture of secret negotiations, particularly TTIP.
Immigration/population explosion which has seen rents for the bottom part of society double in real terms in the last decade.
None of the above are being addressed by the Remain campaign, who just point there finger at anyone who argues with them and call them idiots and racists. Hence the middle ground is left to the right wing.
The reality is that plenty of politicians want this but are too afraid to back it in case the vote fails. Again, leaving the middle ground to the right wing.
All in all, the new entries to the EU aren't exactly rich and aren't really raising the averages any, and Britain - as one of only two net contributors to the EU - is supposed to roll over and spunk up more cash to bail out people who are only in a mess because the EMF (read Germany and France) has fucked them over.
But make that an emotional arguement if you want.
I'm not making it into anything. I'm observing and the impression I get is one of an emotional argument, not a rational one. Me, I think Brexit is financial madness.
I know. You can only work with what you're told and there's a lot of bullshit flying about.
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Well, it is possible to actually find out stuff for yourself, without paying too much attention to the farce. Unfortunately, most people don't and so the emotional arguments are all they get.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
No. It isn't. It is merely a measure of public opinion and has nothing legally binding attached to it.
Should have looked better then. Was wondering whether it was binding or not. Did not find a thing, till I saw a Wikipedia article talking about it being a binding refererendum.
Not binding? That may lead to havock. People can vote, yet it will only have the status of an opinion poll.
A non binding referendum is pretty frustrating. Rather not have a referendum than a non binding one.
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Well it's either that or cultural suicide.
The UK would have to exit the UN to avoid multiculturalism. Many developed countries are projected to become too old and thus economically unsustainable over the next couple of generations due to low birth rates and higher life expectancy. The UN has had long term replacement migration initiatives in place since at least 2000. The US is unaffected by this particular initiative because it already takes in more than enough immigrants to maintain a sufficient young working class.
While completely true this statement I fail to see why you had to say it. Multiculturalism is not and never has been an issue in the UK. While we have some idiots here, overall the UK is very well integrated in terms of multiculturalism.
It was written as a response to what Grey Area wrote. If the implications of cultural suicide by staying in the EU was misunderstood by me, then she will probably let me know. Most resent polling shows public views on multiculturalism to be fairly evenly divided. Maybe I read it correctly and Grey Area has more to say about it.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
No. It isn't. It is merely a measure of public opinion and has nothing legally binding attached to it.
Should have looked better then. Was wondering whether it was binding or not. Did not find a thing, till I saw a Wikipedia article talking about it being a binding refererendum.
Not binding? That may lead to havock. People can vote, yet it will only have the status of an opinion poll.
A non binding referendum is pretty frustrating. Rather not have a referendum than a non binding one.
Those are infuriating. We had a local one a year or two ago, about whether or not to get rid of the toll roads surrounding Gothenburg. A clear majority wanted them gone but the politicians chose to ignore the referendum.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
No. It isn't. It is merely a measure of public opinion and has nothing legally binding attached to it.
Should have looked better then. Was wondering whether it was binding or not. Did not find a thing, till I saw a Wikipedia article talking about it being a binding refererendum.
Not binding? That may lead to havock. People can vote, yet it will only have the status of an opinion poll.
A non binding referendum is pretty frustrating. Rather not have a referendum than a non binding one.
Those are infuriating. We had a local one a year or two ago, about whether or not to get rid of the toll roads surrounding Gothenburg. A clear majority wanted them gone but the politicians chose to ignore the referendum.
The two referendums we had, both times the outcome was diametrical against what the government wanted. So, it only helped to make some minor adjustments.
Think it is bloody stupid to try to motivate people to vote and then not listen to them. This will only make the distance between national politics and civilians bigger, and the reasons to vote smaller. The way to let democracy go bankrupt.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
No. It isn't. It is merely a measure of public opinion and has nothing legally binding attached to it.
Should have looked better then. Was wondering whether it was binding or not. Did not find a thing, till I saw a Wikipedia article talking about it being a binding refererendum.
Not binding? That may lead to havock. People can vote, yet it will only have the status of an opinion poll.
A non binding referendum is pretty frustrating. Rather not have a referendum than a non binding one.
While not a legally binding vote I can't see any government ignoring it. But I suspect if the vote says leave then they'll be another vote - a "do you really mean it?" thing. It's all posturing at the moment.
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That's about how I read it too.
But, it is a binding referendum. So, now I am wondering what will happen when the majority does go for the brexit option.
No. It isn't. It is merely a measure of public opinion and has nothing legally binding attached to it.
Should have looked better then. Was wondering whether it was binding or not. Did not find a thing, till I saw a Wikipedia article talking about it being a binding refererendum.
Not binding? That may lead to havock. People can vote, yet it will only have the status of an opinion poll.
A non binding referendum is pretty frustrating. Rather not have a referendum than a non binding one.
While not a legally binding vote I can't see any government ignoring it. But I suspect if the vote says leave then they'll be another vote - a "do you really mean it?" thing. It's all posturing at the moment.
My experience with referendums that are not binding is that the government then tells they will do it the way they wanted it anyway, yet they will be prepared to do some extra tweaking. Very annoying. The way to alienate the public from the government.
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with referendums that are not binding is that the government then tells they will do it the way they wanted it anyway, yet they will be prepared to do some extra tweaking. Very annoying. The way to alienate the public from the government.
What a bunch of crap.
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with referendums that are not binding is that the government then tells they will do it the way they wanted it anyway, yet they will be prepared to do some extra tweaking. Very annoying. The way to alienate the public from the government.
What a bunch of crap.
The way referendums are treated by the leading politicians? Or how I think they are annoying and alienating the public even further from national politics?
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Elections that don't count. It was a reflexive response. Though a primary vote on the Brexit topic makes more sense, even if the official decision may never be left to the public vote. It's a big issue so impressive to allow for a general public voting.
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:angrydance: :angrydance: :angrydance:
:'(
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The remain vote was counting on a big turnout from Scotland and London. Without this, Brexit will win the vote....unless the rest of the country has a worse turnout. If I was a betting man, I'd back Brexit
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Not good.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I felt a surge Patriotism about 9 generations removed from me, for Great Britain. My Irish and England Blood spilled over. LOL .
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I felt a surge Patriotism about 9 generations removed from me, for Great Britain. My Irish and England Blood spilled over. LOL .
I don't think it was your Irish blood spilling over. Northern Ireland voted convincingly to stay in, and it stands to be royally fucked over by a leave vote.
I'd say it's definitely your English blood stirring. You might like England right now. I think it's only one step away from building a wall to separate it from Europe, and banning foreigners from "undesirable" countries :laugh:
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I felt a surge Patriotism about 9 generations removed from me, for Great Britain. My Irish and England Blood spilled over. LOL .
I don't think it was your Irish blood spilling over. Northern Ireland voted convincingly to stay in, and it stands to be royally fucked over by a leave vote.
Maybe not. My Aboriginal and German blood maybe not either. (Though there was another shooting in Germany - a few more and maybe).
Yes the Pound Sterling went into freefall. BUT that is short term stuff. I see the EU as pulling down the more financial nations an dragging up somewhat the less financial nations. Britain would be better pulling away. Not short term and the benefits will not be felt for at least 5 years. This WILL knock them. Its brave and tenacious. Its stalwart in the face of adversity.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
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Fuck them all, tbh. Most people, including the British, have no actual stakes in this, short term. Sure, the pound will sink like the Titanic but it will not significantly affect them in a couple of months. The market is reacting, though, and it's going to be scary.
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Actually ashamed and embarrassed of my country today
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Fuck them all, tbh. Most people, including the British, have no actual stakes in this, short term. Sure, the pound will sink like the Titanic but it will not significantly affect them in a couple of months. The market is reacting, though, and it's going to be scary.
Agreed.
I am a little worried about how the US dollar responding up right now, compared to many foreign currencies, will affect our economy to trend downward in the mid-term run. We are barely showing signs of recovery a the local marketplaces from our "not a recession" event.
"... and it is going to be scary."
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Fuck them all, tbh. Most people, including the British, have no actual stakes in this, short term. Sure, the pound will sink like the Titanic but it will not significantly affect them in a couple of months. The market is reacting, though, and it's going to be scary.
Agreed.
I am a little worried about how the US dollar responding up right now, compared to many foreign currencies, will affect our economy to trend downward in the mid-term run. We are barely showing signs of recovery a the local marketplaces from our "not a recession" event.
"... and it is going to be scary."
I took a 6.5 % pay cut today. as a result of this moronic vote. It's going to be scary in so many ways that the British public have no fucking idea.
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Actually ashamed and embarrassed of my country today
I've grown very fond of your country and I'm devastated.
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I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
I read an article that said that the number two search term on Google in Britain this morning was "what is the EU".
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I saw that too. Is it really that bad?
/she asks, watching as simultaneously massive swaths of the uneducated USA support a bigot with a hairdo.
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I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
I read an article that said that the number two search term on Google in Britain this morning was "what is the EU".
How fucking appropriate is that?
I really hope it is a joke of some sort.
:-\
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Fuck them all, tbh. Most people, including the British, have no actual stakes in this, short term. Sure, the pound will sink like the Titanic but it will not significantly affect them in a couple of months. The market is reacting, though, and it's going to be scary.
Agreed.
I am a little worried about how the US dollar responding up right now, compared to many foreign currencies, will affect our economy to trend downward in the mid-term run. We are barely showing signs of recovery a the local marketplaces from our "not a recession" event.
"... and it is going to be scary."
I took a 6.5 % pay cut today. as a result of this moronic vote. It's going to be scary in so many ways that the British public have no fucking idea.
That really sucks. No way else to describe it!
It seems so immediate.
:GA:
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I saw that too. Is it really that bad?
/she asks, watching as simultaneously massive swaths of the uneducated USA support a bigot with a hairdo.
Of course you mean a "Hair Don't," right?
Honestly, Hilary looks like the lesser of two weevils all the time.
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You are right, of course. :P
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This is going to be a messy divorce between the EU and the UK. Very messy. They've got about two years to bargain and talk about how and under what conditions to leave.
Now extreme right wing parties in Europe everywhere start roaring about their own exit.
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But there could well be other referendums within the UK, too. One for Scottish independence, one for Northern Ireland's possible union with the rest of Ireland, and even another referendum about staying in the EU. That last could easily result from the petition signed by hundreds of thousands of people pointing out that a vote with less than a 60% majority should be questioned.
It's going to be a mess.
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But there could well be other referendums within the UK, too. One for Scottish independence, one for Northern Ireland's possible union with the rest of Ireland, and even another referendum about staying in the EU. That last could easily result from the petition signed by hundreds of thousands of people pointing out that a vote with less than a 60% majority should be questioned.
It's going to be a mess.
Not a referendum even Farage can be opposed to, because he said he'd question every outcome that was in favour for remain if it had less than 66% of the votes. Should work both ways.
But messy it will be.
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And after the "divorce" negotiations, there will be negotiations about import, export, visits, border-controls, food regulations all those European rules will have to be replaced by specific conditions of interaction between the UK and the EU.
The only people benefiting from that will be the bureaucrats. They'll have a glorious decade awaiting them.
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Customs. Pensions. Health care. Fishing. Driver's licenses. Etc.
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Customs. Pensions. Health care. Fishing. Driver's licenses. Etc.
Yes, Everything.
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And since the UK import from the EU is much bigger than the export to the EU, life will become more expensive.
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I saw that too. Is it really that bad?
/she asks, watching as simultaneously massive swaths of the uneducated USA support a bigot with a hairdo.
The two most swaying exit campaign platforms were funding of the NHS and stopping immigration, and officials have already backtracked on those campaign promises, seemingly leaving regretful voters to realize they voted based on lies. Politics is the same everywhere, regardless of hairstyles.
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I saw that too. Is it really that bad?
/she asks, watching as simultaneously massive swaths of the uneducated USA support a bigot with a hairdo.
That's right, honey! You tell 'em to vote for me instead! :trump:
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The USA, the UK and Canada should now team up
to create the Empire Union. Just like the good old days! :hyke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSbpLeLgjNc
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This has shown me one thing.
The turkeys will vote for Christmas, if you drape the abattoir in Union Flags, and tell them that they won't have to share the slaughter truck with any foreign turkeys >:(
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This has shown me one thing.
The turkeys will vote for Christmas, if you drape the abattoir in Union Flags, and tell them that they won't have to share the slaughter truck with any foreign turkeys >:(
That first phrase threw me off at first, since turkeys in the States are associated with Thanksgiving. :asthing:
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This has shown me one thing.
The turkeys will vote for Christmas, if you drape the abattoir in Union Flags, and tell them that they won't have to share the slaughter truck with any foreign turkeys >:(
That first phrase threw me off at first, since turkeys in the States are associated with Thanksgiving. :asthing:
We don't have Thanksgiving. Turkey is our traditional Christmas meal.
"Turkeys voting for Christmas" is a common phrase in Britain. It never occurred to me that it wasn't used in America :laugh:
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Elections that don't count. It was a reflexive response. Though a primary vote on the Brexit topic makes more sense, even if the official decision may never be left to the public vote. It's a big issue so impressive to allow for a general public voting.
If it was possible to change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
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This has shown me one thing.
The turkeys will vote for Christmas, if you drape the abattoir in Union Flags, and tell them that they won't have to share the slaughter truck with any foreign turkeys >:(
That first phrase threw me off at first, since turkeys in the States are associated with Thanksgiving. :asthing:
We don't have Thanksgiving. Turkey is our traditional Christmas meal.
"Turkeys voting for Christmas" is a common phrase in Britain. It never occurred to me that it wasn't used in America :laugh:
Such cultural misunderstandings would become a thing of the past in my Empire UnionTM! :2thumbsup:
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Firstly, this is only a disaster because the press are left leaning and mostly backed Remain. What is going on is the same media hysteria that went on after the conservatives won the last election (against what the media thought would happen). Things didn't catch fire. The world didn't end. This is the end of nothing. So for fucks sake calm down and act like adults please.
The mass media and most of the remainers still don;t realise what happened. And this is why they lost.
Neither Remain or Brexit seemed to realise that there was a mass movement of people who had genuine misgivings about the EU. It was supposed to be a trade agreement but it has grown towards a superstate. This was not what Britain joined and is not what a large part of the country want. Instead the Remain campaign thought this was all about a few working class idiots not liking foreigners. They were wrong. This is not about immigrants. It never has been. But because anyone talking about leave is singled out and shouted at for being "racist" no politicians would back Leave for fear of being tarred with the politics by innuendo that the left of centre often resort to.
So for a while at least it appeared that the right and Nigel Farage were actually in charge. But they weren't. Theywere just a few people running in front of the mob. The mob was not racist. The mob consists of the middle ground that wanted to be part of the EU but did not want the EU to be how it is now. There was no third option. They were told to vote for the EU (and further integration) or to vote out.
And en masse they chose out as the lesser of two evils. Out.
It was about sovereignty. It was about not wanting to be further integrated. It was about never wanting to be part of an EU this large. It was about not wanting to have less and less influence but still be expected to pick up the tab for more and more ailing economies. It was about not wanting to be forced to participate in the French dream of European army to replace NATO. It was about not wanting a secretive cabal to negotiate for us behind closed doors. It was about having laws forced un us that were conceived by people who had never won a vote to get their positions. It was about not having TTIP shoved down our throats. This is not about fucking refugees. It's never was.
It's such a shame that the left and the right never once looked up from their out of date hymn sheets to see what the rest of the country were singing.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
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we're an embarrassment. i'm going on holiday next month in 5 different european countries and already i'm dreading having to apologise on behalf of my fucking country
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
Also, I can respect your sentiments about liking your country, and the people it contains.
However, it seems odd expressing those sentiments in reply to a post criticizing people for racially abusing a class of 6 year olds :dunno:
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we're an embarrassment. i'm going on holiday next month in 5 different european countries and already i'm dreading having to apologise on behalf of my fucking country
You will be a good ambassador. You'll keep the goodwill flowing. 8)
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we're an embarrassment. i'm going on holiday next month in 5 different european countries and already i'm dreading having to apologise on behalf of my fucking country
Where will you be going?
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we're an embarrassment. i'm going on holiday next month in 5 different european countries and already i'm dreading having to apologise on behalf of my fucking country
Hey Adam. Awesome to see you again :green:
Think of me. A lot of my friends are Hungarians, or foreign university students. I cant even defend my country >:( Im just having to disown it :laugh:
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You're not the only one. Apparently there's a surge in Google searches on Irish passports.
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You're not the only one. Apparently there's a surge in Google searches on Irish passports.
I've already got mine 8)
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
I put forward plenty of arguements in my post above as to why people could feel legitimately that they were best out of the EU, but you still called me a Little Englander (and by assocciation a racist I suppose). Would that be because, like the remain campaign in general, you have no answers to any political issues? All you can do is point a finger and call names.
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Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
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Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
God, I hope not :soapbox:
Scotland looks like it's going to hold a new independence referendum, and I sincerely hope it's successful.
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If it was possible to change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
Such is democracy.
Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
God, I hope not :soapbox:
That's harsh. :laugh:
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If it was possible to change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
Such is democracy.
Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
God, I hope not :soapbox:
That's harsh. :laugh:
Hey, it's fair enough. I'm Scottish, and Scotland voted 62-38 to stay in.
I think a growing number of Scots are realizing that sharing a country with England is making us feel slightly dirty :laugh:
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If it was possible to change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
Such is democracy.
Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
God, I hope not :soapbox:
That's harsh. :laugh:
Hey, it's fair enough. I'm Scottish, and Scotland voted 62-38 to stay in.
I think a growing number of Scots are realizing that sharing a country with England is making us feel slightly dirty :laugh:
This guy feels your pain. :thumbup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-LRuuqFT0
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If it was possible to change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
Such is democracy.
Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
God, I hope not :soapbox:
That's harsh. :laugh:
Hey, it's fair enough. I'm Scottish, and Scotland voted 62-38 to stay in.
I think a growing number of Scots are realizing that sharing a country with England is making us feel slightly dirty :laugh:
So you just hate the English? Yeah. How very European.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
I put forward plenty of arguements in my post above as to why people could feel legitimately that they were best out of the EU, but you still called me a Little Englander (and by assocciation a racist I suppose). Would that be because, like the remain campaign in general, you have no answers to any political issues? All you can do is point a finger and call names.
Some of the reasons people have given for being pissed off at the EU were valid, but actually choosing to leave it was an extreme case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
There are people who wanted to leave who aren't racist. Sadly though, the clear undercurrent throughout the campaign was one of extreme xenophobia.
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If it was possible to change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
Such is democracy.
Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
God, I hope not :soapbox:
That's harsh. :laugh:
Hey, it's fair enough. I'm Scottish, and Scotland voted 62-38 to stay in.
I think a growing number of Scots are realizing that sharing a country with England is making us feel slightly dirty :laugh:
So you just hate the English? Yeah. How very European.
I had never subscribed to anti-English sentiment, but recent events have made me reconsider :P
Seriously though, I don't dislike the English. I have contempt for the Brexiteers, wherever they are.
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Hey, it's fair enough.
Not really. :laugh: The UK is a powerful global influence and important to the world's economy, and that wont change regardless of associations with the EU; it's not in anyone's best interest to wish them failure as a nation.
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Hey, it's fair enough.
Not really. :laugh: The UK is a powerful global influence and important to the world's economy, and that wont change regardless of associations with the EU; it's not in anyone's best interest to wish them failure as a nation.
I don't think you really understand :dunno:
The UK is a union of nations. The largest, England, voted to leave the UK. Much smaller Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU.
This has inevitably lead to huge debate as to whether the UK can survive. There is a huge amount of discussion about Scotland holding a referendum on independence, and a smaller amount of discussion on Northern Ireland rejoining Ireland.
After being dragged out of the EU against our will, I think Scotland and N.Ireland should go their own way. This would obviously mean that the UK would cease to exist. Many Scots and N:Irish would rather be EU citizens, than UK citizens.
So, I hope that the UK fails to survive this.
Odeon's question made most sense, if it's assumed he was suggesting that the UK may break up into it's constituent parts. Obviously, I hope that Scotland, N.Ireland, Wales, and N.Ireland survive this, but obviously they'll survive it. The countries aren't going to cease to exist.
Sorry, I'm in a hurry. If that doesn't make sense, I'll try and explain it better.
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Oh, I understand. The UK is a sovereign state with its own government; it's a nation with a high ranking seat in the United Nations, and will stand by the statement it's not in anyone's interest to wish failure on the UK as a nation.
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Oh, I understand. The UK is a sovereign state with its own government; it's a nation with a high ranking seat in the United Nations, and will stand by the statement it's not in anyone's interest to wish failure on the UK as a nation.
:dunno:
I don't think anyone wishes "failure on the UK as a nation," as such.
Northern Ireland belonging to UK is a historical travesty. Ireland should be united, but obviously political problems have put paid to that in the past. If the opportunity comes along to undo that mistake peacefully, then it has to be seriously explored. Any reasonable person has to agree :dunno:
A large proportion of Scots, myself included, feel more European than British. After the outrageous decision by the English and Welsh to drag us out of the EU against our will, a lot of us think we would be better being independent and a member of the EU.
Now, it's fair enough that you oppose Scottish independence and Irish reunification. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that's yours.
I can't understand why seem to think that to want Scottish independence, or Irish reunification, is in some way unreasonable.
Why does Scotland, a country in it's own right, not deserve the right to right to self-determination?
Why is it better for Ireland to remain an island divided, if by some chance the people of N.Ireland actually want reunification?
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we're an embarrassment. i'm going on holiday next month in 5 different european countries and already i'm dreading having to apologise on behalf of my fucking country
Where will you be going?
germany, lithuania, latvia, estonia and finland
we're an embarrassment. i'm going on holiday next month in 5 different european countries and already i'm dreading having to apologise on behalf of my fucking country
Hey Adam. Awesome to see you again :green:
Think of me. A lot of my friends are Hungarians, or foreign university students. I cant even defend my country >:( Im just having to disown it :laugh:
i should be going to budapest some time soon for a short break! my mate loves it there and keeps banging on about it lol
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
You need to get a serious grip though and accept the democratic result. You don't even live here? :P
Democracy is not about getting the result you want, it's about accepting the result of the majority. The working class has spoken, they no longer want to be flooded so their wages can be kept down and have their communities dismantled. This is a victory for Tony Benn, Enoch Powell and Michael Foot. Justice has been done!
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
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This is going to be a fucking disaster
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Actually ashamed and embarrassed of my country today
Accept democracy you fucking traitor. You are part of the problem you imbecile. You're part of the Labour party but despise the working class even though your party is meant to represent them. You shouldn't be anywhere near politics. Jeremy Corbyn is the last hope for the Labour party.
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This is going to be a fucking disaster
For who? For what? This isn't about money. We are £1.6 trillion in debt. You're wimpering that the Labour core have decided that they don't want to be ruled by corrupt and unelected pigs in Brussels. Live with it.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
You need to get a serious grip though and accept the democratic result. You don't even live here? :P
Democracy is not about getting the result you want, it's about accepting the result of the majority. The working class has spoken, they no longer want to be flooded so their wages can be kept down and have their communities dismantled. This is a victory for Tony Benn, Enoch Powell and Michael Foot. Justice has been done!
You know I'm fond of you.
But, I have utter contempt for the Brexiteers view.
I think they were totally mislead. Brexit won't make things better for anyone, least of all the majority of people who voted Brexit. Boris and Gove have already admitted immigration won't fall.
They've exercised their democratic right to fuck over the UK, and possibly the EU.
I really hope I'm proved wrong, and if I am, I promise to come back here and own up to my stupidity and thank you Brexiteers for your wisdom.
Sadly, I don't think I will be wrong.
You are right about one thing though. It is a victory for Enoch Powell :thumbdn:
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
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::)
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
You need to get a serious grip though and accept the democratic result. You don't even live here? :P
Democracy is not about getting the result you want, it's about accepting the result of the majority. The working class has spoken, they no longer want to be flooded so their wages can be kept down and have their communities dismantled. This is a victory for Tony Benn, Enoch Powell and Michael Foot. Justice has been done!
You know I'm fond of you.
But, I have utter contempt for the Brexiteers view.
I think they were totally mislead. Brexit won't make things better for anyone, least of all the majority of people who voted Brexit. Boris and Gove have already admitted immigration won't fall.
They've exercised their democratic right to fuck over the UK, and possibly the EU.
I really hope I'm proved wrong, and if I am, I promise to come back here and own up to my stupidity and thank you Brexiteers for your wisdom.
Sadly, I don't think I will be wrong.
You are right about one thing though. It is a victory for Enoch Powell :thumbdn:
Which is why I am annoyed with the way you're acting, as in I see you as a friend but am gutted by the way you are acting. I have complete contempt for your views on this issue but would have accepted and tolerated the result if it had been in your favor. Do you think I wanted that fraud Cameron to win the General Election? I dealt with it and didn't start crying and saying I wanted to leave the country.
Gove and Boris can say what the fuck they want, it is the British people who are in charge and they are sick of seeing their country turn into some corporate wank sock, even if they don't understand the full details. If the full facts were shown to the public, regarding the Lisbon Treaty and how the Irish were ignored with that, then the percentage would have been closer to 90% to leave. It was a British Exit from a hideous corporate machine, hence why the corporate machine and their puppets are crying. Already we are seeing that their could be some kind of deal to mean we are basically in the EU but not in the name. How stupid are people like you and 'Adam' being?
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
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Oh, I understand. The UK is a sovereign state with its own government; it's a nation with a high ranking seat in the United Nations, and will stand by the statement it's not in anyone's interest to wish failure on the UK as a nation.
:dunno:
I don't think anyone wishes "failure on the UK as a nation," as such.
Northern Ireland belonging to UK is a historical travesty. Ireland should be united, but obviously political problems have put paid to that in the past. If the opportunity comes along to undo that mistake peacefully, then it has to be seriously explored. Any reasonable person has to agree :dunno:
A large proportion of Scots, myself included, feel more European than British. After the outrageous decision by the English and Welsh to drag us out of the EU against our will, a lot of us think we would be better being independent and a member of the EU.
Now, it's fair enough that you oppose Scottish independence and Irish reunification. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that's yours.
I can't understand why seem to think that to want Scottish independence, or Irish reunification, is in some way unreasonable.
Why does Scotland, a country in it's own right, not deserve the right to right to self-determination?
Why is it better for Ireland to remain an island divided, if by some chance the people of N.Ireland actually want reunification?
Your questions are loaded with things I didn't say. Don't tell me what my opinions are. Personally not apposed to or in favor of any of it, and it would be silly for me to be either, but do believe it's not economically or politically wise. You said you hope the UK doesn't survive. Now you're being more clear about what that means. The UK was the UK long before it was part of the EU, would probably be fine without the EU, and these individual state issues of sovereignty already existed and have been brought up before They're nothing new, Scotland held a referendum to leave the UK only two years ago and caused North Ireland to get all flappy right along with them. With the understanding this vote doesn't actually mean anything, will have to agree with FourAceDeal, in that it's a lot of political muscle flexing. No one has made any decision to do or drag or force anything. Still can't help but view it as a powerful UK bargaining tool in negotiating with the EU. If that's all it is, then it's very smart. It was even smart to lie to the public in order to get a majority public poll. Governments don't stir up and scare the public like this for nothing, and am personally guessing there's probably some much bigger agenda at stake than what's on the surface and the general public doesn't even realize it. Sometimes see it when the government stirs things here, sometime not until later, and probably sometimes miss it completely; it's like slight of hand. Maybe will realize something in hindsight about the UK and add it to my personal global conspiracy theory. :laugh:
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Justice has been done!
Welcome back.
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Which is why I am annoyed with the way you're acting, as in I see you as a friend but am gutted by the way you are acting. I have complete contempt for your views on this issue but would have accepted and tolerated the result if it had been in your favor. Do you think I wanted that fraud Cameron to win the General Election? I dealt with it and didn't start crying and saying I wanted to leave the country.
I hate Cameron too, but he only won a couple of elections. He was never going to destroy the country. Lot's of people hate Cameron, but accepted the fact he won the election. Does that not give you some kind of hint at the depth of feeling against Brexit?
Gove and Boris can say what the fuck they want, it is the British people who are in charge and they are sick of seeing their country turn into some corporate wank sock, even if they don't understand the full details. If the full facts were shown to the public, regarding the Lisbon Treaty and how the Irish were ignored with that, then the percentage would have been closer to 90% to leave. It was a British Exit from a hideous corporate machine, hence why the corporate machine and their puppets are crying.
OK, that's maybe what you think you were voting for, but it's not really what you're going to get.
Do you really think you've ushered in some kind of new golden dawn in British politics where the people are in control? In terms of domestic politics, it's just going to be business as usual. A shit Labour party versus an absolutely vile Tory party, just in a poorer country, with probably a LOT more racism and unpleasantness.
Already we are seeing that their could be some kind of deal to mean we are basically in the EU but not in the name.
You mean a deal where we stay in the single market, and accept freedom of movement?
If we can achieve this, then great. It's probably the best case scenario from here.
It would really beg the question though. What the fuck has Brexit achieved? You've dragged the country to the brink of destruction. Made it poorer. Caused untold misery for a sustained period in the country. Ensured that the Tories are even further right wing. And all for nothing. You won't even get rid of the foreigners :laugh:
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
I never said that at all. All I ask is that you accept the will of the people.
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This is going to be a fucking disaster
Welcome back to you too.
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Which is why I am annoyed with the way you're acting, as in I see you as a friend but am gutted by the way you are acting. I have complete contempt for your views on this issue but would have accepted and tolerated the result if it had been in your favor. Do you think I wanted that fraud Cameron to win the General Election? I dealt with it and didn't start crying and saying I wanted to leave the country.
I hate Cameron too, but he only won a couple of elections. He was never going to destroy the country. Lot's of people hate Cameron, but accepted the fact he won the election. Does that not give you some kind of hint at the depth of feeling against Brexit?
Gove and Boris can say what the fuck they want, it is the British people who are in charge and they are sick of seeing their country turn into some corporate wank sock, even if they don't understand the full details. If the full facts were shown to the public, regarding the Lisbon Treaty and how the Irish were ignored with that, then the percentage would have been closer to 90% to leave. It was a British Exit from a hideous corporate machine, hence why the corporate machine and their puppets are crying.
OK, that's maybe what you think you were voting for, but it's not really what you're going to get.
Do you really think you've ushered in some kind of new golden dawn in British politics where the people are in control? In terms of domestic politics, it's just going to be business as usual. A shit Labour party versus an absolutely vile Tory party, just in a poorer country, with probably a LOT more racism and unpleasantness.
Already we are seeing that their could be some kind of deal to mean we are basically in the EU but not in the name.
You mean a deal where we stay in the single market, and accept freedom of movement?
If we can achieve this, then great. It's probably the best case scenario from here.
It would really beg the question though. What the fuck has Brexit achieved? You've dragged the country to the brink of destruction. Made it poorer. Caused untold misery for a sustained period in the country. Ensured that the Tories are even further right wing. And all for nothing. You won't even get rid of the foreigners :laugh:
He didn't win the first one and he got elected the second time because he promised a referendum the second time. That option was forced upon him by the BNP firstly and then by UKIP. He and Osbourne have already destroyed the country. We've destroyed a smoke screen, and now people will learn that the European Union wasn't the real problem. What are you talking about? The majority of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. They accepted he won because they wanted to vote to leave and because the majority of us are tolerant.
The working class want to stop being accused of racism for not wanting their wages lowered for the corporate machine and their communities destroyed in a flash. Start listening to the working class and stop trying to force them to listen to you, which was my exact point on a radio station on Friday.
The working class here do not want mass immigration, despite what Gove wants. We need to basically shut the doors.
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Oh, I understand. The UK is a sovereign state with its own government; it's a nation with a high ranking seat in the United Nations, and will stand by the statement it's not in anyone's interest to wish failure on the UK as a nation.
:dunno:
I don't think anyone wishes "failure on the UK as a nation," as such.
Northern Ireland belonging to UK is a historical travesty. Ireland should be united, but obviously political problems have put paid to that in the past. If the opportunity comes along to undo that mistake peacefully, then it has to be seriously explored. Any reasonable person has to agree :dunno:
A large proportion of Scots, myself included, feel more European than British. After the outrageous decision by the English and Welsh to drag us out of the EU against our will, a lot of us think we would be better being independent and a member of the EU.
Now, it's fair enough that you oppose Scottish independence and Irish reunification. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that's yours.
I can't understand why seem to think that to want Scottish independence, or Irish reunification, is in some way unreasonable.
Why does Scotland, a country in it's own right, not deserve the right to right to self-determination?
Why is it better for Ireland to remain an island divided, if by some chance the people of N.Ireland actually want reunification?
Your questions are loaded with things I didn't say. Don't tell me what my opinions are. Personally not apposed to or in favor of any of it, and it would be silly for me to be either, but do believe it's not economically or politically wise. You said you hope the UK doesn't survive. Now you're being more clear about what that means. The UK was the UK long before it was part of the EU, would probably be fine without the EU, and these individual state issues of sovereignty already existed and have been brought up before They're nothing new, Scotland held a referendum to leave the UK only two years ago and caused North Ireland to get all flappy right along with them. With the understanding this vote doesn't actually mean anything, will have to agree with FourAceDeal, in that it's a lot of political muscle flexing. No one has made any decision to do or drag or force anything. Still can't help but view it as a powerful UK bargaining tool in negotiating with the EU. If that's all it is, then it's very smart. It was even smart to lie to the public in order to get a majority public poll. Governments don't stir up and scare the public like this for nothing, and am personally guessing there's probably some much bigger agenda at stake than what's on the surface and the general public doesn't even realize it. Sometimes see it when the government stirs things here, sometime not until later, and probably sometimes miss it completely; it's like slight of hand. Maybe will realize something in hindsight about the UK and add it to my personal global conspiracy theory. :laugh:
Your questions are loaded with things I didn't say. Don't tell me what my opinions are.
Ok. Looks like there was misunderstandings on both sides.
Scotland held a referendum to leave the UK only two years ago and caused North Ireland to get all flappy right along with them.
I don't remember N.Ireland ever getting flappy before :-\
With the understanding this vote doesn't actually mean anything, will have to agree with FourAceDeal, in that it's a lot of political muscle flexing. No one has made any decision to do or drag or force anything.
I would love to think that you're right, but I'm certain this is entirely wrong >:(
Legally, the result of this vote is non-binding, but there's no likelihood of the government failing to act upon the result. The supporters of the ruling government are mostly Eurosceptic, and to go back on their word would be electoral suicide. Also, the pro-Europe Prime Minister has resigned and is likely to be replaced by someone who campaigned to leave the EU.
Still can't help but view it as a powerful UK bargaining tool in negotiating with the EU. If that's all it is, then it's very smart. It was even smart to lie to the public in order to get a majority public poll. Governments don't stir up and scare the public like this for nothing, and am personally guessing there's probably some much bigger agenda at stake than what's on the surface and the general public doesn't even realize it.
Again, I'd truly love for this to be the case, but I'm certain you're very wrong. It's just about possible Europe could come back to Britain with a new offer, but I don't think it would be down to any planning by the government.
I need to explain the history of this to you. I'll try and keep it short.
The ruling Tory party has always had a deeply Eurosceptic side to it.
The Tory leader, concerned that his party was going to lose the election to the Labour party, and was going to lose seats to the single-issue anti-Europe party UKIP, devised a cunning plan.
He promised that if he won the election, he would hold a referendum on membership of the EU. This was cunning for 2 reasons. 1, He was offering what UKIP could never offer, an actual EU referendum, meaning that anyone who wanted out of the EU would have to vote Tory rather than UKIP. 2, It looked like he wasn't going to win the election, but if he did, it would be with a minority. That meant that the Tories would have needed to form a coalition government with the pro-Europe Liberal Democrats. The Liberals would never have allowed an EU referendum. Obviously Cameron would then have been able to blame the Liberals for his failure to hold a referendum, and everybody would have been fairly happy.
Unfortunately for everyone, the Tories won a surprise majority, and Cameron had no choice but to hold the referendum.
He didn't want this referendum, but his Eurosceptic party gave him no choice.
So no. This was not some well planned bargaining tool. This was a dirty trick to win the election gone hopelessly wrong, hence his resignation the day after the poll.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
I never said that at all. All I ask is that you accept the will of the people.
No. Fouracedeal did :-\
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Which is why I am annoyed with the way you're acting, as in I see you as a friend but am gutted by the way you are acting. I have complete contempt for your views on this issue but would have accepted and tolerated the result if it had been in your favor. Do you think I wanted that fraud Cameron to win the General Election? I dealt with it and didn't start crying and saying I wanted to leave the country.
I hate Cameron too, but he only won a couple of elections. He was never going to destroy the country. Lot's of people hate Cameron, but accepted the fact he won the election. Does that not give you some kind of hint at the depth of feeling against Brexit?
Gove and Boris can say what the fuck they want, it is the British people who are in charge and they are sick of seeing their country turn into some corporate wank sock, even if they don't understand the full details. If the full facts were shown to the public, regarding the Lisbon Treaty and how the Irish were ignored with that, then the percentage would have been closer to 90% to leave. It was a British Exit from a hideous corporate machine, hence why the corporate machine and their puppets are crying.
OK, that's maybe what you think you were voting for, but it's not really what you're going to get.
Do you really think you've ushered in some kind of new golden dawn in British politics where the people are in control? In terms of domestic politics, it's just going to be business as usual. A shit Labour party versus an absolutely vile Tory party, just in a poorer country, with probably a LOT more racism and unpleasantness.
Already we are seeing that their could be some kind of deal to mean we are basically in the EU but not in the name.
You mean a deal where we stay in the single market, and accept freedom of movement?
If we can achieve this, then great. It's probably the best case scenario from here.
It would really beg the question though. What the fuck has Brexit achieved? You've dragged the country to the brink of destruction. Made it poorer. Caused untold misery for a sustained period in the country. Ensured that the Tories are even further right wing. And all for nothing. You won't even get rid of the foreigners :laugh:
He didn't win the first one and he got elected the second time because he promised a referendum the second time. That option was forced upon him by the BNP firstly and then by UKIP. He and Osbourne have already destroyed the country. We've destroyed a smoke screen, and now people will learn that the European Union wasn't the real problem. What are you talking about? The majority of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union. They accepted he won because they wanted to vote to leave and because the majority of us are tolerant.
The working class want to stop being accused of racism for not wanting their wages lowered for the corporate machine and their communities destroyed in a flash. Start listening to the working class and stop trying to force them to listen to you, which was my exact point on a radio station on Friday.
The working class here do not want mass immigration, despite what Gove wants. We need to basically shut the doors.
The majority of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union.
No they didn't. Around 17 million did.
The working class want to stop being accused of racism for not wanting their wages lowered for the corporate machine and their communities destroyed in a flash. Start listening to the working class and stop trying to force them to listen to you, which was my exact point on a radio station on Friday.
I think you have a low opinion of the working classes. It wasn't the working classes who voted Brexit. It was the patriotic idiots that voted Brexit. Plenty of working class people voted remain. You don't speak for the working class :laugh:
The working class here do not want mass immigration, despite what Gove wants. We need to basically shut the doors.
I disagree with everything you say on Brexit, but this is just disgusting >:(
Vile and fucking racist :thumbdn:
And again, don't dare try and claim that you speak for the working class, especially when you're speaking such vile racist bullshit.
Most of my friends are working class, and you certainly don't speak for them :thumbdn:
You speak for yourself, and perhaps other racists. Not the working classes :thumbdn:
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You're right Butterflies, about Cameron etc. But going back, around 2009, the BNP won a load of council seats and the British people have had enough, then the corporate machine decided to give us something, which was Farage and UKIP, putting Farage on the BBC every week. This lead to Cameron offering the vote which he had actually offered in 2010.
Cameron and his masters thought they'd win the vote easily, even using Jo Cox's death as propaganda. But the British people have spoken. Sure, a lot of them don't realise why they've made the correct choice, but this is the first step.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
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I don't remember N.Ireland ever getting flappy before :-\
It was a couple years ago, around the same time, and seemingly in direct response to the Scottish referendum to leave the UK, there were news headlines about North Ireland polls to join the republic of Ireland. Though it may have never amounted to any more than public polls and interesting world news.
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I don't remember N.Ireland ever getting flappy before :-\
It was a couple years ago, around the same time, and seemingly in direct response to the Scottish referendum to leave the UK, there were news headlines about North Ireland polls to join the republic of Ireland. Though it may have never amounted to any more than public polls and interesting world news.
I'm genuinely surprised. I was probably living in Northern Ireland at the time. Historically, America's always had a strange obsession with Irish nationalism, so I'm guessing it was a grossly exaggerated, or downright false story.
The only genuine concern in N.Ireland at the time was that a vote for Scottish independence could damage N.Irelands place in the UK.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
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I don't remember N.Ireland ever getting flappy before :-\
It was a couple years ago, around the same time, and seemingly in direct response to the Scottish referendum to leave the UK, there were news headlines about North Ireland polls to join the republic of Ireland. Though it may have never amounted to any more than public polls and interesting world news.
I'm genuinely surprised. I was probably living in Northern Ireland at the time. Historically, America's always had a strange obsession with Irish nationalism, so I'm guessing it was a grossly exaggerated, or downright false story.
The only genuine concern in N.Ireland at the time was that a vote for Scottish independence could damage N.Irelands place in the UK.
In looking at old headlines, it appears there was a slight push for a referendum and boarder removal poll, but it never went beyond public polling. So probably not a huge exaggeration, just some news about nothing. US news might have been an interest trigger, but it may not have been US news. Things like this are more interesting from a different perspective, and none of what I've read about any of this has been US news. Who cares what the US has to say about it? :laugh:
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Hey, it's fair enough.
Not really. :laugh: The UK is a powerful global influence and important to the world's economy, and that wont change regardless of associations with the EU; it's not in anyone's best interest to wish them failure as a nation.
I don't think you really understand :dunno:
The UK is a union of nations. The largest, England, voted to leave the UK. Much smaller Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU.
This has inevitably lead to huge debate as to whether the UK can survive. There is a huge amount of discussion about Scotland holding a referendum on independence, and a smaller amount of discussion on Northern Ireland rejoining Ireland.
After being dragged out of the EU against our will, I think Scotland and N.Ireland should go their own way. This would obviously mean that the UK would cease to exist. Many Scots and N:Irish would rather be EU citizens, than UK citizens.
So, I hope that the UK fails to survive this.
Odeon's question made most sense, if it's assumed he was suggesting that the UK may break up into it's constituent parts. Obviously, I hope that Scotland, N.Ireland, Wales, and N.Ireland survive this, but obviously they'll survive it. The countries aren't going to cease to exist.
Sorry, I'm in a hurry. If that doesn't make sense, I'll try and explain it better.
It's what I meant, yes.
It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
Says the Irish passport holder living in Budapest. This isn't even your vote.
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I don't remember N.Ireland ever getting flappy before :-\
It was a couple years ago, around the same time, and seemingly in direct response to the Scottish referendum to leave the UK, there were news headlines about North Ireland polls to join the republic of Ireland. Though it may have never amounted to any more than public polls and interesting world news.
The only way someone could think that will happen is if they had no idea about Irish or British history.
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Vile and fucking racist :thumbdn:
And again, don't dare try and claim that you speak for the working class, especially when you're speaking such vile racist bullshit.
Most of my friends are working class, and you certainly don't speak for them :thumbdn:
You speak for yourself, and perhaps other racists. Not the working classes :thumbdn:
So in your version of the world 52% of Britains are racists? It's all that simple? No one had any valid arguements against the EU at all except racist one?
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It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate. London is a bubble. It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.
Incidentally... the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too.
But that aside, this is all piss and smoke. It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
Says the Irish passport holder living in Budapest. This isn't even your vote.
I had as much right to vote as you. This vote probably affected those living in the EU more than the people living in Britain. I wasn't able to vote though, because of a self-imposed voter registration fuck-up.
Your comment does kinda show the true nature of the Brexiteer. Only Little Englanders should be allowed to vote on something that effects everybody :thumbdn:
Let's stop blacks and Asians from voting too. After all, they're not true Brits :zombiefuck:
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Still can't help but view it as a powerful UK bargaining tool in negotiating with the EU. If that's all it is, then it's very smart. It was even smart to lie to the public in order to get a majority public poll. Governments don't stir up and scare the public like this for nothing, and am personally guessing there's probably some much bigger agenda at stake than what's on the surface and the general public doesn't even realize it. Sometimes see it when the government stirs things here, sometime not until later, and probably sometimes miss it completely; it's like slight of hand. Maybe will realize something in hindsight about the UK and add it to my personal global conspiracy theory. :laugh:
It was that, I think, till the results of the referendum came in.
But they got more than they bargained for.
The "we'll stay if..." negotiations have all happened before the referendum.
Since the referendum outcome, it is divorce time.
Europe wants the UK out ASAP now.
So, looks like Cameron seriously overplayed his hand, in this game.
Scotland may have a hard time coming in in the EU, because of Spain not wanting Basque and Catalonia going for independence too. But we'll see. Other participants in the EU are willing to give Scotland some slack compared to other wannabee members, because they already follow many EU regulations.
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No. Fouracedeal did :-\
Yes. He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.
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Vile and fucking racist :thumbdn:
And again, don't dare try and claim that you speak for the working class, especially when you're speaking such vile racist bullshit.
Most of my friends are working class, and you certainly don't speak for them :thumbdn:
You speak for yourself, and perhaps other racists. Not the working classes :thumbdn:
So in your version of the world 52% of Britains are racists? It's all that simple? No one had any valid arguements against the EU at all except racist one?
Dead to rights. There will be a few racists on both sides, no doubts. If 5% of the vote was for exiting and there was some evidence that they all were racists I could probably buy that 5% of the population. Hell maybe I am a little naive and it is 10% or 15%.
52%?....I really don't think so.
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Think the whole thing is shite. Yes, there are enough things in the EU that need some serious reform. It is stupid how all kinds of precise regulations destroy mini markets in different countries, with apples needing to be a certain size, before they can be called fit for consuming and such.
Yes, there is good in the EU too. It does give a stability and a freedom in trading and finding jobs in other countries that wasn't there before.
Discussing about the EU in referendums, bringing things back to simple choices, disregarding the complexity of the EU, both in where it is good and where it could do with serious improvements is bloody stupid.
I live in a country with a government too scared to take outcomes of referendums as binding, yet we had referendums. Both were on Europe. Both outcomes were not taken serious. They should never have had those referendums in the first place. But they should have looked at where the pains are, when it comes to the EU and address that.
Now in the UK, the non binding referendum will be binding. That courage they have. Bravo for that. But it was stupid to start this referendum from the beginning. The EU is complex. And many of the citizens voting will not have had enough information to weigh the pro's and cons of leaving or staying properly.
The campaigning got played on some points that did it well emotion wise. There was a racist component in some of the exit campaigners. Now all brexit voters get tainted with that. Not fair. But dualising without any notion for nuances has happened the tainting continues.
Maybe that will be one of the biggest challenges the next few months for the UK, or for the individual nations, how to find a sense of belonging together again. To regain some mutual respect.
It's a problem that comes on top of the mess that will happen because of the divorce from the EU.
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Think the whole thing is shite. Yes, there are enough things in the EU that need some serious reform. It is stupid how all kinds of precise regulations destroy mini markets in different countries, with apples needing to be a certain size, before they can be called fit for consuming and such.
Yes, there is good in the EU too. It does give a stability and a freedom in trading and finding jobs in other countries that wasn't there before.
Discussing about the EU in referendums, bringing things back to simple choices, disregarding the complexity of the EU, both in where it is good and where it could do with serious improvements is bloody stupid.
I live in a country with a government too scared to take outcomes of referendums as binding, yet we had referendums. Both were on Europe. Both outcomes were not taken serious. They should never have had those referendums in the first place. But they should have looked at where the pains are, when it comes to the EU and address that.
Now in the UK, the non binding referendum will be binding. That courage they have. Bravo for that. But it was stupid to start this referendum from the beginning. The EU is complex. And many of the citizens voting will not have had enough information to weigh the pro's and cons of leaving or staying properly.
The campaigning got played on some points that did it well emotion wise. There was a racist component in some of the exit campaigners. Now all brexit voters get tainted with that. Not fair. But dualising without any notion for nuances has happened the tainting continues.
Maybe that will be one of the biggest challenges the next few months for the UK, or for the individual nations, how to find a sense of belonging together again. To regain some mutual respect.
It's a problem that comes on top of the mess that will happen because of the divorce from the EU.
The remain campaign pushed that down everyones throats in an effort to win via the politics of innuendo, rather than address any of the sovereignty issues. Even after the event they are still doing that.
We should have had referendums earlier, before the signing of every major treaty with the EU. That would have forced renegotiation rather than leading to a point where there was no middle ground.
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No. Fouracedeal did :-\
Yes. He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.
Actually, I'm not sure I was on the losing side. I'm Scottish, and we voted to stay in. Now it looks like we'll be holding an independence referendum. England may be leaving the EU, but it's far from certain Scotland will.
Perhaps you should just get back to deciding who will be allowed to vote in your glorious New England :P
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The remain campaign pushed that down everyones throats in an effort to win via the politics of innuendo, rather than address any of the sovereignty issues. Even after the event they are still doing that.
We should have had referendums earlier, before the signing of every major treaty with the EU. That would have forced renegotiation rather than leading to a point where there was no middle ground.
And the other side was completely honest and not telling the others simplified and ridiculed it too much? Not buying it. Reducing complex issues to a simple yes or no, without spending lots of honest time on really educating the voting public is bound to go sour. Had the votes been the other way around, the exeteers would have been sour.
We've had our referendums. Non binding. That was fun, especially on the EU constitution. Not!
And the one on the Ukrainian treaty, big fun. Turned out most of the treaty was already binding, a small part was open to negotiation, but clarity on what was to vote for and what was already decided was nowhere to be found. Stupidity to organise a referendum on that. Even bigger stupidity to turn down a massive 61 % "No" that easy. I do not like my government at the moment.
A lot can be improved when it comes to Europe. Some things the EU should just stop with, IMO.
But referendums make things too simple and divide a nation I fear. I think the referendum in the UK was a big mistake.
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Europe wants the UK out ASAP now.
It makes sense they would; am reading the possible intent to be harsh about exit negotiations too; making an example of them in order to discourage others from leaving. Do think the UK would be fine without the EU; though the UK splitting might be a different matter.
No. Fouracedeal did :-\
Yes. He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.
Read it differently. A two party system always for a divided populace, and there will always be disagreement. Disagreement is one thing, but painting the entire country as scummy shit is another, so didn't see it as out of line to say. Then again, it's a bit of a motto here. It's good this conversation has people on both sides; it would be boring otherwise.
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Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?
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No. Fouracedeal did :-\
Yes. He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.
Actually, I'm not sure I was on the losing side. I'm Scottish, and we voted to stay in. Now it looks like we'll be holding an independence referendum. England may be leaving the EU, but it's far from certain Scotland will.
Perhaps you should just get back to deciding who will be allowed to vote in your glorious New England :P
I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote. A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.
There was no vote by Scotland to do anything. There was no vote by England to do anything. There was no vote for NI to do anything. One vote. Britain. Yes. No.
By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region. That is all that has happened. Some statistics. Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.
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I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote. A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.
There was no vote by Scotland to do anything. There was no vote by England to do anything. There was no vote for NI to do anything. One vote. Britain. Yes. No.
By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region. That is all that has happened. Some statistics. Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.
Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.
If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.
Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.
I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.
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Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?
Enjoying a spliff with Zegh? :laugh:
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It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate. London is a bubble. It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.
Incidentally... the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too.
But that aside, this is all piss and smoke. It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.
It's an indication of people being pissed off and knowing they will be paying for other people's mistakes.
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I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote. A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.
There was no vote by Scotland to do anything. There was no vote by England to do anything. There was no vote for NI to do anything. One vote. Britain. Yes. No.
By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region. That is all that has happened. Some statistics. Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.
Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.
If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.
Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.
I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.
They could actually block the new legislation.
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I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote. A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.
There was no vote by Scotland to do anything. There was no vote by England to do anything. There was no vote for NI to do anything. One vote. Britain. Yes. No.
By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region. That is all that has happened. Some statistics. Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.
Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.
If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.
Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.
I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.
They could actually block the new legislation.
You have no idea how much I'm hoping this turns out to be true :laugh:
The Brexiteers would be apoplectic with rage. HOW DARE SCOTLAND TELL THEM WHAT TO DO
Sadly, it's far from certain at the moment that Scotland can block it. It's just the opinion of a few people, and a few others are saying that Scotland really doesn't have the power to block it.
I'm very much keeping my eye on it, and all my fingers crossed :laugh:
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I'd think it was hilarious, actually.
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
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We have more than our share of separatists here in the states. Texass has been threatening independence ever since Obama was elected..... :yawn: As for trumpty-numpty, that orange con man scares me :zombiefuck:
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
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Honestly, if anybody's a fan of Ricky Gervais, or Alan Partridge, they should really set aside 15 minutes to watch his video :laugh:
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
He's the vicarious poster of the aspie elite.
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Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?
Enjoying a spliff with Zegh? :laugh:
:laugh:
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I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote. A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.
There was no vote by Scotland to do anything. There was no vote by England to do anything. There was no vote for NI to do anything. One vote. Britain. Yes. No.
By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region. That is all that has happened. Some statistics. Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.
Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.
If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.
Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.
I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.
I hear that.... To the Scots the English are the bogey man. If a Scot got a letter from the English telling him the sky was blue he'd look out the window to make sure.
When I'm not ranting I feel sorry for the Scots. What the fuck do they do? Putting their hatred of the English aside, do they stick with Britain outside the EU? The alternative is to become a small non-EU country and apply for membership. But then they will be forced into the Euro as an entry requirement.
Britain had one thing going for it and that was we had a lot of hard fought for changes to the usual EU membership rules that no one else had. Do the Scots want the full on 100% integrated Euro using membership? Because that's what weill be on offer. If so then goodbye and thanks for all the whisky. Sorry about the new border fence, but you know how it goes.
And Northern Ireland? Fuck. Historically there has always been "The Irish Question". It's not a simple thing like, "shall we stay with Britain or shall we not stay with Britain?". NI is a barrel of dynamite whos smoking fuse has gone out. Or at least you think its gone out. You can smell burning. Hmmmm... Seriously, tell me a scenario where the status quo changes in any way that doesn't end in civil war. There's still a shit load of assualt rifles hidden under floor boards in NI. Would The Republic of Ireland even want to be dealing with that? Do they even have the infrastructure to deal with a new kick off of "The Troubles"?
Then the rest of Europe. There is , of course, the domino effect. Article 50 has not been activated because time is on Britains side. How will the landscape change id, say Holland for ce a referendum? Or Finland? Or Italy? Or even the French?
Germany may be facing the prospect of bank rolling a bloated EU by themselves and have fewer and fewer bargaining chips. Perhaps this is the point where the EU changes course and goes back to the institution it was meant to be and the idea of a superstate is put to rest.
No one knows how things are going to pan out, but best that no one panics. We live in interesting times.
And its going to be a long haul, so best pace yourself.
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
FourAceDeal is certainly mentally ill and apologises for not taking medication today. Is being mentally ill a problem here? Did I come to the wrong meeting?
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Pea replied to Butterflies and since it's relevant, he asked me to post his reply. After this I will retire temporarily from the messenger role and have some more RED WINE!
"I used your name because you disclosed it to me and others a while back. You also disclosed some things about yourself to me like how hard you had it. Not sure if you remember. I only did so because we were briefly acquainted and you were polite, so I'm returning the favour somewhat. If you prefer to be called by your username, fine. My online friends and I use our first names to one another all of the time. Also, this video is unlisted, not public. If you want it taken down because I used your first name, I will.
Like I said, father's from Scotland, so I don't really dislike Scottish people. I just don't like the SNP lot much, especially when they're negative about my country - not all of them. However, like them, I want independence from the UK, but under capitalism whereas SNP wants socialism. I also speak to a Scottish guy online now and then who supports different economical values to you. He feels isolated due to the SNP because of what economical system they support. In fact, I would say he is one of the people who helped me support the idea of a Brexit.
Yes; one of the reasons why I support the idea of Brexit is to curtail the number of religious people coming into the UK. I've seen videos of Bangladeshis and such in London, for example, abusing homosexuals. Because of the EU courts, the UK government do very little to prevent these terrorists. Hopefully, with this gamble, we'd oust these idiots out of the country under our own laws. Like I said, no matter what people think of me right now, I believe in liberty and protecting the rights of others, as long as it's consensual and it doesn't harm others. Legalising drugs is one of my views, too.
Am I mentally ill? Possibly, due to the stroke I had a few years back. It affects the individual in various ways. However, just because I may receive negative attention on the internet, it does not apply to how colleagues and such interact with me in real life. Anyway, the whole Brexit reaction fascinates me online, so I'm indulging until my other work begins next month to keep me occupied. The whole dialogue between you and Breeg intrigued me, so I wanted to give my support to what he is saying about globalism.
There's bound to be problems with the entire decision, like if it was a Bremain one; but if you watch the likes of Sargon of Akkad on youtube, who explains his decision more eloquently than I do verbally, you'd probably appreciate a little of why people have voted Brexit. Incidentally, I agree with Breeg that's it's unfair to just laugh and mock those who have geniune concerns about the EU as a whole.
I was pretty polite to locals in my Grassroots Out campaign with leafleting. There were some non white residents I spoke to who had an interest in the OUT stance. I never imposed my views on those who had no interest in the election. Again, while there are idiots in OUT, I don't think I'm prejudice to those with skin colour. Religious ideals, I admittedly am.
I'll continue this further if you wish, but right now I'm rather tired and I might be getting some sleep soon."
"I also want to add that FourAceDeal makes some pretty reasonable points pertaining to this Brexit subject. Unlike me, he's not proudly cray cray.
He's right about one thing, however: the times will definitely be arduous, but they will pay off in the end. I believe I voted for what I think is just."
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Quite frankly, I want Peaguy back here, but, that is not my decision to make. Nor, would I want to be in that position, being an admin is a thankless and frustrating job! I've done it twice and will never do so again! :P
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this is in the interest of free speech.
I prefer to circumvent member bans in the interest of cheap tricks. :zoinks:
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FourAceDeal is certainly mentally ill and apologises for not taking medication today. Is being mentally ill a problem here? Did I come to the wrong meeting?
I'm cyber e-humping your leg right now. :zoinks:
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
That is your insult default isn't it. No judging, but it is isn't it?
If you disagree with a position or don't like the person, you call them mentally ill or crazy or the like.
I suggest that it usually is more likely that people have different thoughts and perspectives than you and that neither make you right nor more sane for having different thoughts.
By all means though, keep throwing that out there.
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I am not that interested in this whole thing. Brexit got the majority vote and so good for them.
I do think that the European Union is sacrificing of a bit of national autonomy and identity for collective power andstrength and sharing of resources. To be a small part of a whole. Like combining together to make one large nation with a collective identity.
Apart from the opportunity for corruption, I see a big issue with the fact that Germany is not Britain nor France nor Spain.
They are vastly different. They are not one humougenous mass. Their cultures, history and values are not all the same. Their identity and what separates them from each other is important.
Important enough to leave? Maybe.
I think that it is good the citizens of Britain got to vote. I see nothing wrong with them getting to make their own decisions as to what's important to them
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Then the rest of Europe. There is , of course, the domino effect. Article 50 has not been activated because time is on Britains side. How will the landscape change id, say Holland for ce a referendum? Or Finland? Or Italy? Or even the French?
What about the other ten provinces of the Netherlands? :MLA:
Holland does now and then think they are the Netherlands. Ask Groningen what that leads to.
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I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote. A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.
There was no vote by Scotland to do anything. There was no vote by England to do anything. There was no vote for NI to do anything. One vote. Britain. Yes. No.
By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region. That is all that has happened. Some statistics. Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.
Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.
If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.
Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.
I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.
I hear that.... To the Scots the English are the bogey man. If a Scot got a letter from the English telling him the sky was blue he'd look out the window to make sure.
When I'm not ranting I feel sorry for the Scots. What the fuck do they do? Putting their hatred of the English aside, do they stick with Britain outside the EU? The alternative is to become a small non-EU country and apply for membership. But then they will be forced into the Euro as an entry requirement.
Britain had one thing going for it and that was we had a lot of hard fought for changes to the usual EU membership rules that no one else had. Do the Scots want the full on 100% integrated Euro using membership? Because that's what weill be on offer. If so then goodbye and thanks for all the whisky. Sorry about the new border fence, but you know how it goes.
And Northern Ireland? Fuck. Historically there has always been "The Irish Question". It's not a simple thing like, "shall we stay with Britain or shall we not stay with Britain?". NI is a barrel of dynamite whos smoking fuse has gone out. Or at least you think its gone out. You can smell burning. Hmmmm... Seriously, tell me a scenario where the status quo changes in any way that doesn't end in civil war. There's still a shit load of assualt rifles hidden under floor boards in NI. Would The Republic of Ireland even want to be dealing with that? Do they even have the infrastructure to deal with a new kick off of "The Troubles"?
Then the rest of Europe. There is , of course, the domino effect. Article 50 has not been activated because time is on Britains side. How will the landscape change id, say Holland for ce a referendum? Or Finland? Or Italy? Or even the French?
Germany may be facing the prospect of bank rolling a bloated EU by themselves and have fewer and fewer bargaining chips. Perhaps this is the point where the EU changes course and goes back to the institution it was meant to be and the idea of a superstate is put to rest.
No one knows how things are going to pan out, but best that no one panics. We live in interesting times.
And its going to be a long haul, so best pace yourself.
When I'm not ranting I feel sorry for the Scots. Putting their hatred of the English aside
Some Scots hate the English, and sadly some English do hate the Scots. I certainly have no ill will, or prejudice towards the English at all. I'm perfectly open about what I think of the Brexiteers though. The comments I make about the English that may sound nasty to you are very much jokes. The comments I make about the Brexiteers are generally genuine.
Do the Scots want the full on 100% integrated Euro using membership?
I don't think the Scots have the same hatred of the EU that the English do. I think a lot of Scots would be happy enough to be a fully integrated EU member.
I certainly don't see the EU as the bogeyman.
And Northern Ireland? Fuck. Historically there has always been "The Irish Question". It's not a simple thing like, "shall we stay with Britain or shall we not stay with Britain?". NI is a barrel of dynamite whos smoking fuse has gone out. Or at least you think its gone out. You can smell burning. Hmmmm... Seriously, tell me a scenario where the status quo changes in any way that doesn't end in civil war. There's still a shit load of assualt rifles hidden under floor boards in NI. Would The Republic of Ireland even want to be dealing with that? Do they even have the infrastructure to deal with a new kick off of "The Troubles"?
I lived in N.Ireland for 6 years. Yes, I know about the problems. I think any course off action could end up restarting a civil war.
Of course, re-unifying with Ireland could cause chaos, but so too would not re-unifying with Ireland, if the majority of N.Ireland was calling for it.
At the moment, I don't think there will be an overwhelming call for re-unification, but that could change quickly. If Britains suffering over Brexit continues, and life starts to look better as part of a re-unified Ireland, then calls for re-unification will get louder.
Then the rest of Europe. There is , of course, the domino effect. Article 50 has not been activated because time is on Britains side. How will the landscape change id, say Holland for ce a referendum? Or Finland? Or Italy? Or even the French?
Honestly, I'd be devastated. I think that overall, the EU is/was a great thing. Deeply flawed, yes. In desperate need of reform, also yes. But integration and cooperation between countries that have such a history of war, and the ability for the citizens to move and work throughout the EU, are things that I really liked, and felt they were worth fighting to keep.
Germany may be facing the prospect of bank rolling a bloated EU by themselves and have fewer and fewer bargaining chips. Perhaps this is the point where the EU changes course and goes back to the institution it was meant to be and the idea of a superstate is put to rest.
Yup, I can see that happening. If not now, then in the foreseeable future.
No one knows how things are going to pan out, but best that no one panics. We live in interesting times.
Very interesting. I'm spending most of my time reading what's going on. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime.
I think I'll continue panicing for now though :angrydance: :angrydance:
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Pea, by proxy, certainly brought up one point. The SNP has a marxist backbone, which they don't really talk about.
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Pea replied to Butterflies and since it's relevant, he asked me to post his reply. After this I will retire temporarily from the messenger role and have some more RED WINE!
"I used your name because you disclosed it to me and others a while back. You also disclosed some things about yourself to me like how hard you had it. Not sure if you remember. I only did so because we were briefly acquainted and you were polite, so I'm returning the favour somewhat. If you prefer to be called by your username, fine. My online friends and I use our first names to one another all of the time. Also, this video is unlisted, not public. If you want it taken down because I used your first name, I will.
Like I said, father's from Scotland, so I don't really dislike Scottish people. I just don't like the SNP lot much, especially when they're negative about my country - not all of them. However, like them, I want independence from the UK, but under capitalism whereas SNP wants socialism. I also speak to a Scottish guy online now and then who supports different economical values to you. He feels isolated due to the SNP because of what economical system they support. In fact, I would say he is one of the people who helped me support the idea of a Brexit.
Yes; one of the reasons why I support the idea of Brexit is to curtail the number of religious people coming into the UK. I've seen videos of Bangladeshis and such in London, for example, abusing homosexuals. Because of the EU courts, the UK government do very little to prevent these terrorists. Hopefully, with this gamble, we'd oust these idiots out of the country under our own laws. Like I said, no matter what people think of me right now, I believe in liberty and protecting the rights of others, as long as it's consensual and it doesn't harm others. Legalising drugs is one of my views, too.
Am I mentally ill? Possibly, due to the stroke I had a few years back. It affects the individual in various ways. However, just because I may receive negative attention on the internet, it does not apply to how colleagues and such interact with me in real life. Anyway, the whole Brexit reaction fascinates me online, so I'm indulging until my other work begins next month to keep me occupied. The whole dialogue between you and Breeg intrigued me, so I wanted to give my support to what he is saying about globalism.
There's bound to be problems with the entire decision, like if it was a Bremain one; but if you watch the likes of Sargon of Akkad on youtube, who explains his decision more eloquently than I do verbally, you'd probably appreciate a little of why people have voted Brexit. Incidentally, I agree with Breeg that's it's unfair to just laugh and mock those who have geniune concerns about the EU as a whole.
I was pretty polite to locals in my Grassroots Out campaign with leafleting. There were some non white residents I spoke to who had an interest in the OUT stance. I never imposed my views on those who had no interest in the election. Again, while there are idiots in OUT, I don't think I'm prejudice to those with skin colour. Religious ideals, I admittedly am.
I'll continue this further if you wish, but right now I'm rather tired and I might be getting some sleep soon."
"I also want to add that FourAceDeal makes some pretty reasonable points pertaining to this Brexit subject. Unlike me, he's not proudly cray cray.
He's right about one thing, however: the times will definitely be arduous, but they will pay off in the end. I believe I voted for what I think is just."
Ho Pea. Don't worry about the video. No need to take it down. No big deal at all. FWIW, I'm open about giving my name, but prefer it not to be used in public because of privacy concerns. I'd hate a real life friend to find this account ,and realize it was me. I've written so much personal stuff, I would die of embarrassment if someone I knew IRL found it :laugh:
Yes; one of the reasons why I support the idea of Brexit is to curtail the number of religious people coming into the UK. I've seen videos of Bangladeshis and such in London, for example, abusing homosexuals.
I really don't think Brexit is going to rid Britain of Bangladeshis :-\
I agree with Breeg that's it's unfair to just laugh and mock those who have geniune concerns about the EU as a whole.
Nobody's laughing and mocking those who have genuine concerns about the EU. A lot of those concerns were valid. A lot of people feel utter despair at the fact that you guys have dragged us out of the EU over those concerns though.
Also, I really don't see much laughing going on among the Remainers. Like I say, despair seems to be the overwhelming emotion.
TBH, I just logged in here to vent at the result. Not to get involved in serious discussions about it. It looks like the Brexiteers have won, and I'm fucking gutted about it :(
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Pea, by proxy, certainly brought up one point. The SNP has a marxist backbone, which they don't really talk about.
I really don't think they do. They're a bit more Social-democratic than any of the mainstream Westminster parties, but nobody in the SNP (that I know of) supports society of common ownership.
The SNP are capitalists.
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If you could post this to Butterflies again, that'd be great. Cheers.
Ho Pea. Don't worry about the video. No need to take it down. No big deal at all. FWIW, I'm open about giving my name, but prefer it not to be used in public because of privacy concerns. I'd hate a real life friend to find this account ,and realize it was me. I've written so much personal stuff, I would die of embarrassment if someone I knew IRL found it
I deleted the video because I respect your concerns. I won’t do a video like that regarding you again.
Also, if you don’t want me to post at you again, I’m giving you that opportunity here and now to say that you don’t want my input. I’m not taking it personal or anything. It’s just that your posts stood out in this topic, and I decided to comment on them. I’m typing this out of courtesy.
I really don't think Brexit is going to rid Britain of Bangladeshis
I have no qualms with every Bangladeshi, and I understand that we can’t get rid of every bad one out. However, I don’t respect cultures who treat atheists and homosexuals as dogs like this poor lad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36128729
Again, I’m not against all immigration, but I am against having the intolerant in any parts of the UK while we deal with the local shit. I also want educated, sophisticated immigrants. Skin colour and nationality is irrelevant to me.
Nobody's laughing and mocking those who have genuine concerns about the EU. A lot of those concerns were valid. A lot of people feel utter despair at the fact that you guys have dragged us out of the EU over those concerns though.
Also, I really don't see much laughing going on among the Remainers. Like I say, despair seems to be the overwhelming emotion.
I’m glad that you’ve taking this tone. That’s good.
I understand that there would be harsh consequences after making this decision. But what could we do? Not vote because we’re afraid of alienating our social networks instead of looking at the bigger picture? I’ve had these concerns about the effects mass immigration and the monopoly capitalism has on pollution, public services, wages and housing for a long time now. I don’t care about the pragmatic reasons for being in the EU. Slowly, it was destroying this union socially and economically. Didn’t we have to deal with the recession and having to bail out other weaker economies?
It’s best to have a Europe where every nation is sovereign but with better trade agreements. That’s what we thought we were a part of in the first place.
I also ask that you take the time to watch this video from Sargon of Akkad. I normally don’t like his content, but what he said in the video resonates with how I feel about the EU. I want you to just listen to his concerns without having to completely jump to Brexit – I don’t expect you to. I’m aware of the idiots who vote, but I am not associated with ethnocentric socialists. I want less government, more freedom for individuals and businesses. I also want this country further out of debt without the globalists dragging us further down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vpo9qzsfL4
Bangladesh LGBT editor hacked to death - BBC News
A senior editor on Bangladesh's first LGBT magazine has been hacked to death along with a second person in the capital Dhaka, police say.
bbc.co.uk
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Hey Pea. You're always welcome to comment, even though I strongly disagree with you on this issue.
I doubt if there's much more to comment on, at least with me. I've done my sounding off, and it's time to move on. Like I say, I was only here to vent, not for serious discussion. I think it's time for me to stop posting in this thread :laugh:
I won't lie, I'm angry and upset. I think you guys have fucked up the country, and possibly the EU, but I truly hope I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than if Brexit turns out to be a great decision that brings huge benefits to Britain and Europe.
Lastly, I really don't think that Brexit is going to lead to fewer Bangladeshis in Britain :dunno:
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Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?
Hiding :hide:
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
Pappy wasn't available to carry his water this time?
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Wow! I find myself agreeing with 4acedeal and Benji on this one...
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Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?
Good weather + motorcycle = color me gone....
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
Pappy wasn't available to carry his water this time?
Peaguy asked me on FB to post this.
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Hey Pea. You're always welcome to comment, even though I strongly disagree with you on this issue.
I doubt if there's much more to comment on, at least with me. I've done my sounding off, and it's time to move on. Like I say, I was only here to vent, not for serious discussion. I think it's time for me to stop posting in this thread :laugh:
I won't lie, I'm angry and upset. I think you guys have fucked up the country, and possibly the EU, but I truly hope I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than if Brexit turns out to be a great decision that brings huge benefits to Britain and Europe.
Lastly, I really don't think that Brexit is going to lead to fewer Bangladeshis in Britain :dunno:
Bangladesh is a member of the commonwealth. If anything Britain would be looking to strengthen ties after Brexit.
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Hey Pea. You're always welcome to comment, even though I strongly disagree with you on this issue.
I doubt if there's much more to comment on, at least with me. I've done my sounding off, and it's time to move on. Like I say, I was only here to vent, not for serious discussion. I think it's time for me to stop posting in this thread :laugh:
I won't lie, I'm angry and upset. I think you guys have fucked up the country, and possibly the EU, but I truly hope I'm wrong. Nothing would make me happier than if Brexit turns out to be a great decision that brings huge benefits to Britain and Europe.
Lastly, I really don't think that Brexit is going to lead to fewer Bangladeshis in Britain :dunno:
Bangladesh is a member of the commonwealth. If anything Britain would be looking to strengthen ties after Brexit.
I agree. I don't think Pea understands though :dunno:
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Well, on the plus side, Iceland wants to do business with the UK. :P
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Iceland just defeated the UK in Soccer! LOVE IT! 8)
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FourAceDeal, I like your posts on this topic, mate. Here's my response.
I'm aware of the Commonwealth ties and that we have to do business with them. I don't like how the Chinese government treat their people, but they have money. Same with Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, it's a necessary evil.
With immigration, I'd rather we be more selective with who comes in:
Highly intelligent and skilled.
Moderate to atheist.
Done. Very simple.
Post that please.
Add this too:
I want to see what Breeg and Scrap has to say about all of this; I'm dying to debate with them.
Cheers Steve.
Chat Conversation End
Type a message...
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Add this too:
I want to see what Breeg and Scrap has to say about all of this; I'm dying to debate with them.
Cheers Steve.
Chat Conversation End
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
Pappy wasn't available to carry his water this time?
Nor, Sir Les apparently.
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Iceland just defeated the UK in Soccer! LOVE IT! 8)
No, No, No, No, NO, NO
They did not beat the UK. They beat England :green: :green: :green:
I've just polished off half a bottle of palinka in honour of my beautiful Icelandic brothers :headbang2:
In football, the British nations compete separately. There are separate Scottish, English, Northern Irish, Welsh, and Gibraltarian teams.
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I am not that interested in this whole thing. Brexit got the majority vote and so good for them.
I do think that the European Union is sacrificing of a bit of national autonomy and identity for collective power andstrength and sharing of resources. To be a small part of a whole. Like combining together to make one large nation with a collective identity.
Apart from the opportunity for corruption, I see a big issue with the fact that Germany is not Britain nor France nor Spain.
They are vastly different. They are not one humougenous mass. Their cultures, history and values are not all the same. Their identity and what separates them from each other is important.
Important enough to leave? Maybe.
I think that it is good the citizens of Britain got to vote. I see nothing wrong with them getting to make their own decisions as to what's important to them
Personally find it extremely interesting. The EU is becoming a United States of Europe, gaining voice within the UN speaking for the union toward common EU foreign policy in recent years, and probably isn't long off from being given an official voting seat. It's an emerging super power in its own right, and understandable some countries might not like the idea of that. When the EU gains a UN vote, it will vote for all members of the union. When it becomes a member of the security council, it will be an official superpower. The UK might be getting out while the getting is good to maintain their level of authority within the UN, or negotiating their own level of power within the EU, and this is all related to a bigger agenda which has nothing to do with democratic voting points of the general public or topics in the news.
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Iceland just defeated the UK in Soccer! LOVE IT! 8)
No, No, No, No, NO, NO
They did not beat the UK. They beat England :green: :green: :green:
I've just polished off half a bottle of palinka in honour of my beautiful Icelandic brothers :headbang2:
In football, the British nations compete separately. There are separate Scottish, English, Northern Irish, Welsh, and Gibraltarian teams.
I stand corrected!
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From Pea
Ho Pea. Don't worry about the video. No need to take it down. No big deal at all. FWIW, I'm open about giving my name, but prefer it not to be used in public because of privacy concerns. I'd hate a real life friend to find this account ,and realize it was me. I've written so much personal stuff, I would die of embarrassment if someone I knew IRL found it
I deleted the video because I respect your concerns. I won’t do a video like that regarding you again.
Also, if you don’t want me to post at you again, I’m giving you that opportunity here and now to say that you don’t want my input. I’m not taking it personal or anything. It’s just that your posts stood out in this topic, and I decided to comment on them. I’m typing this out of courtesy.
I really don't think Brexit is going to rid Britain of Bangladeshis
I have no qualms with every Bangladeshi, and I understand that we can’t get rid of every bad one out. However, I don’t respect cultures who treat atheists and homosexuals as dogs like this poor lad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36128729 …
Again, I’m not against all immigration, but I am against having the intolerant in any parts of the UK while we deal with the local shit. I also want educated, sophisticated immigrants. Skin colour and nationality is irrelevant to me.
Nobody's laughing and mocking those who have genuine concerns about the EU. A lot of those concerns were valid. A lot of people feel utter despair at the fact that you guys have dragged us out of the EU over those concerns though.
Also, I really don't see much laughing going on among the Remainers. Like I say, despair seems to be the overwhelming emotion.
I’m glad that you’ve taking this tone. That’s good.
I understand that there would be harsh consequences after making this decision. But what could we do? Not vote because we’re afraid of alienating our social networks instead of looking at the bigger picture? I’ve had these concerns about the effects mass immigration and the monopoly capitalism has on pollution, public services, wages and housing for a long time now. I don’t care about the pragmatic reasons for being in the EU. Slowly, it was destroying this union socially and economically. Didn’t we have to deal with the recession and having to bail out other weaker economies?
It’s best to have a Europe where every nation is sovereign but with better trade agreements. That’s what we thought we were a part of in the first place.
I also ask that you take the time to watch this video from Sargon of Akkad. I normally don’t like his content, but what he said in the video resonates with how I feel about the EU. I want you to just listen to his concerns without having to completely jump to Brexit – I don’t expect you to. I’m aware of the idiots who vote, but I am not associated with ethnocentric socialists. I want less government, more freedom for individuals and businesses. I also want this country further out of debt without the globalists dragging us further down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vpo9qzsfL4 …
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
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https://www.facebook.com/
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
The working class were far better off before we were forced into the "Common Market" and then tricked into staying with the first referendum. Most working class people could work hard and save for a property.
You don't know shit. It's obvious to anyone that there would be negative consequences to begin with and we are suffering like we've actually left Europe already because of it, but not paying that £20,000 a minute will help this country massively. If people were shown the real facts and educated on the past and how we've been taken in this far without being asked, we'd have voted "leave" in a landslide. You want to talk about lies? All the endless tripe and propaganda from your heroes Cameron and boy George. When's WWIII starting? Apparently voting out was what ISIS wanted? Osbourne was going to launch an emergency budget! Sure, the powers that be will punish the working class for making this decision. But why punish the people? How about starting to tax Google properly? How about stop spending money on sickening wars? Or perfecting nukes which is basically against International Law? We had a "recession" while we were in the EU. The powers that be can do what they like and get away with it. What lies are you talking about anyway? Please don't tell me it's about the NHS thing.
I'd imagine we will just sign a deal that pretty much means we're in the EU but not on paper, and if that happens it will wake people up further to the corruption we are dealing with. We don't make any decisions in the EU anyway, the unelected crooks and their friends do.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
Says the Irish passport holder living in Budapest. This isn't even your vote.
I had as much right to vote as you. This vote probably affected those living in the EU more than the people living in Britain. I wasn't able to vote though, because of a self-imposed voter registration fuck-up.
Your comment does kinda show the true nature of the Brexiteer. Only Little Englanders should be allowed to vote on something that effects everybody :thumbdn:
Let's stop blacks and Asians from voting too. After all, they're not true Brits :zombiefuck:
Why do you keep parroting phrases like "Little Englander"? There's nothing that's made England more little than dissolving our sovereignty and trying to change from a state/country to a province. You only want people who you agree with to be able to vote. You also want Scotland to be Independent from the UK?!
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No. Fouracedeal did :-\
Yes. He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.
Actually, I'm not sure I was on the losing side. I'm Scottish, and we voted to stay in. Now it looks like we'll be holding an independence referendum. England may be leaving the EU, but it's far from certain Scotland will.
Perhaps you should just get back to deciding who will be allowed to vote in your glorious New England :P
Scotland didn't vote for anything! The UK voted as a whole! What about the 38% of Scots that voted to leave, can't they just demand that Scotland keeps voting until the country learns that they must vote to leave?
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It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate. London is a bubble. It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.
Incidentally... the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too.
But that aside, this is all piss and smoke. It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.
It's an indication of people being pissed off and knowing they will be paying for other people's mistakes.
You don't understand that would have been plenty of people voting leave knowing full well that it would/could cost them a lot financially? You don't understand that new strategies have to be made and just maybe things could turn out for the better? Or do you just believe everything your TV says? Also, maybe not everything is about purely money.
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I'd think it was hilarious, actually.
You really are an immature shell.
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Honestly, if anybody's a fan of Ricky Gervais, or Alan Partridge, they should really set aside 15 minutes to watch his video :laugh:
I am! Gonna have to watch it now lol.
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
That is your insult default isn't it. No judging, but it is isn't it?
If you disagree with a position or don't like the person, you call them mentally ill or crazy or the like.
I suggest that it usually is more likely that people have different thoughts and perspectives than you and that neither make you right nor more sane for having different thoughts.
By all means though, keep throwing that out there.
A bit like how homosexuals were labelled mentally ill, so again, it's a bit rich. People's views etc should be taken on with logic and reason, not just brushed off as an illness or saying "dats racis".
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Am seeing reports in the news of France presenting a blueprint proposal today to unite EU members into a single military superstate. It's being described as an ultimatum. The only way for the EU can ever become a UN security council nuclear superpower is to have the UK and/or France in their membership. Am hoping the blueprint is released to the public soon to read what's so ultimatum like about it. Am wondering if France intends to make a big play for military control in the EU if the UK leaves, and if they don't get what they want then they might opt out too. Very interesting stuff, Europeans.
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https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
Yep.
Also, lot's of people who voted to stay in would have voted for different reasons, how it would affect their company etc. A lot of people voted because they forgot the last 45 years happened and thought if we were in we could have some influence in the EU.
And Butterflies- The EU will not reform, it is only getting worse! You're either in or out as they say. Cameron crowed about his deal, but he got nothing. Between 1945 and 1971 we didn't have any wars with our neighbors did we? We can still be on good terms with other countries without all dissolving our sovereignty and taking part in globalisation.
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Am seeing reports in the news of France presenting a blueprint proposal today to unite EU members into a single military superstate. It's being described as an ultimatum. The only way for the EU can ever become a UN security council nuclear superpower is to have the UK and/or France in their membership. Am hoping the blueprint is released to the public soon to read what's so ultimatum like about it. Am wondering if France intends to make a big play for military control in the EU if the UK leaves, and if they don't get what they want then they might opt out too. Very interesting stuff, Europeans.
Farage always said about a European army. Cool, they won't fight each other, just fight as one army against which ever Middle East country they fancy blowing up next.
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Am seeing reports in the news of France presenting a blueprint proposal today to unite EU members into a single military superstate. It's being described as an ultimatum. The only way for the EU can ever become a UN security council nuclear superpower is to have the UK and/or France in their membership. Am hoping the blueprint is released to the public soon to read what's so ultimatum like about it. Am wondering if France intends to make a big play for military control in the EU if the UK leaves, and if they don't get what they want then they might opt out too. Very interesting stuff, Europeans.
Farage always said about a European army. Cool, they won't fight each other, just fight as one army against which ever Middle East country they fancy blowing up next.
That's our job! >:(
They best not be encroaching on traditional American past-times.
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And we're your biatches. Hopefully if we're out of the EU we won't get involved in a war with Iran which could happen with either US candidate.
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Am seeing reports in the news of France presenting a blueprint proposal today to unite EU members into a single military superstate. It's being described as an ultimatum. The only way for the EU can ever become a UN security council nuclear superpower is to have the UK and/or France in their membership. Am hoping the blueprint is released to the public soon to read what's so ultimatum like about it. Am wondering if France intends to make a big play for military control in the EU if the UK leaves, and if they don't get what they want then they might opt out too. Very interesting stuff, Europeans.
Farage always said about a European army. Cool, they won't fight each other, just fight as one army against which ever Middle East country they fancy blowing up next.
It's no doubt a plan that's been in the works for some time. It makes complete sense the UK and France would want military control over the EU, and if they can't get it then they absolutely should leave the EU, else risk losing their seat of authority over the rest of the globe. The EU can morph into one nation all they want but without an existing nuclear state witin the membership it will never be anything more than a large UN member nation. This is a global power struggle, and it's looking like the UK is very smartly protecting their own butt at the moment.
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Why do you keep parroting phrases like "Little Englander"? There's nothing that's made England more little than dissolving our sovereignty and trying to change from a state/country to a province. You only want people who you agree with to be able to vote. You also want Scotland to be Independent from the UK?!
Hi Benjamin. I wanted to respond to you. Glad you re-appeared.
See, one of the reasons why I voted Brexit is to eventually bring an independent England from the United Kingdom. I think we'd do all right, Jack. I'm also getting tired of citizens being called "little Englander" and "racist" for showing any patriotism of England. We've done a lot of good things as well as bad. I don't give a shit about the colonial past; we're not a superpower or an empire, any more. Shouldn't people in and outside of the UK just be content with that?
I also think the next step would be to gravitate from the corporatism we have to free market capitalism under a limited government. Otherwise, we'll expect the same corrupt shit outside of the EU.
I'd like to hear what you feel about the idea of classical liberalism as a viable solution. I suspect that you're more of a socialist, although I could be wrong.
And I'm probably mentally ill after surviving death. I'm not too worried about detractors on this board because I'm dealing with people who have the same developmental disorder called autism here. However, I'm not looking to get into pissing matches, just some healthy discussion here from people with different angles to this matter.
(If you could post that when you can, Steve, then cheers. Don't copy and paste this sentence within the round brackes, please!)
I tried, but being the quasi neo luddite of the internet world...I can only do my best! :GA:
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https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
Because it seemed appropriate! Deal with it or whatever! ::)
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Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
Britania has survived a thousand challenges over as many years and more.
I think they will survive.
The matter of TeH UK is still in question, though.
I am no less worried than I was on Day One of the vote.
As much as I may dis' the Brits in an historical context, they are very important to this country in the modern era.
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https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
Because it seemed appropriate! Deal with it or whatever! ::)
It's only a link to facebook, and nothing more. Were you trying to link something specific from facebook? :dunno:
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This is going to be a fucking disaster
MY favorite "new" made up word salad I thought up is "disastrophe!"
I think it may apply.
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https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
Because it seemed appropriate! Deal with it or whatever! ::)
It's only a link to facebook, and nothing more. Were you trying to link something specific from facebook? :dunno:
If it doesn't come thru.....oh well! Not my problem!
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https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
Because it seemed appropriate! Deal with it or whatever! ::)
It's only a link to facebook, and nothing more. Were you trying to link something specific from facebook? :dunno:
If it doesn't come thru.....oh well! Not my problem!
It comes through just fine, for a link to facebook.com. :hahaha:
-
https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
Because it seemed appropriate! Deal with it or whatever! ::)
It's only a link to facebook, and nothing more. Were you trying to link something specific from facebook? :dunno:
If it doesn't come thru.....oh well! Not my problem!
It comes through just fine, for a link to facebook.com. :hahaha:
It works fine for me mcmanslag! :hahaha:
-
https://www.facebook.com/
Why did you post that?
Because it seemed appropriate! Deal with it or whatever! ::)
It's only a link to facebook, and nothing more. Were you trying to link something specific from facebook? :dunno:
If it doesn't come thru.....oh well! Not my problem!
It comes through just fine, for a link to facebook.com. :hahaha:
It works fine for me mcmanslag! :hahaha:
It's only a link for facebook.com. For anyone who isn't logged into facebook, it leads to the log-in page for facebook. If someone is already logged in, I'm guessing it takes them to their own personal facebook page. So, yeah, whatever you're trying to do only works for you. :dunno:
-
C'est la vie! It must help to keep creepazoids off my fb page!
:heisenberg:
-
Are you trying to link an image? :orly: Right click on the image and then select: properties, from the menu. In the properties window, copy the url. Then paste the url into the message window of your post. Highlight the url, and then click on the little icon that looks like the mona lisa at the top of the reply box -->(http://www.intensitysquared.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/img.gif) This will insert img codes before and after the url. If you quote this message, you can see the img codes I used to link picture of the url for the mona lisa image icon. Then post, and the image will be displayed in the post. :thumbup:
-
Do not know this rockhound guy, but I would bet that he, along with most every one else, knows how to do that AND make the image "clicky" as well if desired. Nice tutorial, though for those who are just getting started.
:thumbup:
Seems as if I missed a lot of posts taking the week end off for my own enjoyment(s) and toil.
-
Do not know this rockhound guy, but I would bet that he, along with most every one else, knows how to do that AND make the image "clicky" as well if desired. Nice tutorial, though for those who are just getting started.
:thumbup:
Seems as if I missed a lot of posts taking the week end off for my own enjoyment(s) and toil.
Rock hound used to be called Ozymandias, DD.
I am hyke, btw. Silly mood made me chance my name is something meaning "an/the other way around". Hence my upside down avatar too.
-
I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
That is your insult default isn't it. No judging, but it is isn't it?
If you disagree with a position or don't like the person, you call them mentally ill or crazy or the like.
I suggest that it usually is more likely that people have different thoughts and perspectives than you and that neither make you right nor more sane for having different thoughts.
By all means though, keep throwing that out there.
You didn't actually watch the video, did you :facepalm2:
I didn't suggest Pea was mentally ill because he disagrees with me.
No disrespect to Pea, I quite like him. But, I suggested he was mentally ill, because his whole video was an epic display of misjudgements. I felt embarrassed for him.
He's graciously "not criticized me for being a lesbian" :o
He's "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :facepalm2:
And he decided to do this, whilst using my real name.
It was toe-curlingly cringeworth from start to finish, and I'm amazed that a sane person would ever make the conscious decision to post it for others to see.
I can understand why you may not have wasted 15 minutes of your life watching that abortion of a video, but I am surprised that you were incapable of deducing from my reply to the video that I wasn't questioning Peas sanity for holding a different opinion to me. I was questioning his sanity because of his serious misjudgements in his comments towards me.
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
-
One more word from Pea! 8)
Oh, last comment for a while:
"Well, I aborted the video anyway because of such and such reason.
I'm batshit bonkers. There's nothing sane about me apart from my choice of haircut, I guess.
Anyway, I'm going to sit back and watch Breeg fight for justice on a message board. It's very entertaining and inspiring. I like fellow cray crays."
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
Hmm....I call bulletin.
Yes you asked whether Pea was mental ill and directly after whether FAD was Pea.
If Pea is mentally ill and FAD is Pea...
Yep it's you default. Both guy thought different to you so therefore both are alike and mentally ill.
No huge leaps, it's in your own words
You think racism, isolationism and intolerance is why Brexiters voted to leave....but your opinion is NOT that Brexiters are racist?
Now who is intellectually dishonest?
Out of interest how many Brexiters were there?
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
Hmm....I call bulletin.
Yes you asked whether Pea was mental ill and directly after whether FAD was Pea.
If Pea is mentally ill and FAD is Pea...
Yep it's you default. Both guy thought different to you so therefore both are alike and mentally ill.
No huge leaps, it's in your own words
You think racism, isolationism and intolerance is why Brexiters voted to leave....but your opinion is NOT that Brexiters are racist?
Now who is intellectually dishonest?
Out of interest how many Brexiters were there?
Wow Les. That's just another level of bullshit :laugh:
Pea and FAD expressed some similar views. I thought Pea might have had a sockpuppet. It seems I was wrong.
My belief that Pea might be mad was based entirely on his video, and not on anything that was said on the board.
If FAD wasn't responsible for the video, (which obviously he wasn't,) then I would have no reason whatsoever to suggest he was insane.
So no. I clearly didn't accuse FAD of being insane. I didn't imply he was insane. I never made any insinuations, no matter how vague, that FAD was insane.
My comment "Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(" does imply that I believe that I believe a lot of the brexiteers voted that way because of racism, intolerance, or a desire for isolationism.
I stand by that.
I do believe that a large proportion of brexiteers voted for brexit because they're racist. I believe another large proportion voted for brexit because they're intolerant of immigration, even though they may not actually be racists. I believe that another proportion voted brexit because they want splendid isolation.
I also believe that a huge amount of brexiteers wanted to kick David Cameroon, or to register a protest vote at the state of politics.
Anyway, yes I believe a lot of brexiteers are racist. In fact, I firmly believe that a disproportionately high number of brexiteers are racists. But no, I never said that all brexiteers are racists, and I clearly don't believe all brexiteers are racist.
I do believe however, that virtually all racists are brexiteers.
So Les, you're wrong. You're trying to argue with me, claiming that what I said, doesn't really mean what it said, but instead, means what you want it to mean :laugh:
I've patiently explained everything I've said, fairly well.
I think it's time we moved on. I don't want to have to endure another obsessive feud, over an utterly irrelevant non-issue.
I thank we can declare this OVER :thumbup:
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
Hmm....I call bulletin.
Yes you asked whether Pea was mental ill and directly after whether FAD was Pea.
If Pea is mentally ill and FAD is Pea...
Yep it's you default. Both guy thought different to you so therefore both are alike and mentally ill.
No huge leaps, it's in your own words
You think racism, isolationism and intolerance is why Brexiters voted to leave....but your opinion is NOT that Brexiters are racist?
Now who is intellectually dishonest?
Out of interest how many Brexiters were there?
Wow Les. That's just another level of bullshit :laugh:
Pea and FAD expressed some similar views. I thought Pea might have had a sockpuppet. It seems I was wrong.
My belief that Pea might be mad was based entirely on his video, and not on anything that was said on the board.
If FAD wasn't responsible for the video, (which obviously he wasn't,) then I would have no reason whatsoever to suggest he was insane.
So no. I clearly didn't accuse FAD of being insane. I didn't imply he was insane. I never made any insinuations, no matter how vague, that FAD was insane.
My comment "Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(" does imply that I believe that I believe a lot of the brexiteers voted that way because of racism, intolerance, or a desire for isolationism.
I stand by that.
I do believe that a large proportion of brexiteers voted for brexit because they're racist. I believe another large proportion voted for brexit because they're intolerant of immigration, even though they may not actually be racists. I believe that another proportion voted brexit because they want splendid isolation.
I also believe that a huge amount of brexiteers wanted to kick David Cameroon, or to register a protest vote at the state of politics.
Anyway, yes I believe a lot of brexiteers are racist. In fact, I firmly believe that a disproportionately high number of brexiteers are racists. But no, I never said that all brexiteers are racists, and I clearly don't believe all brexiteers are racist.
I do believe however, that virtually all racists are brexiteers.
So Les, you're wrong. You're trying to argue with me, claiming that what I said, doesn't really mean what it said, but instead, means what you want it to mean :laugh:
I've patiently explained everything I've said, fairly well.
I think it's time we moved on. I don't want to have to endure another obsessive feud, over an utterly irrelevant non-issue.
I thank we can declare this OVER :thumbup:
Call whomever you like mad or crazy or mentally ill. Not upset, just calling it like I see it.
I understand now perfectly. You thought that Pea was behind the FAD persona/account but only Pea was mad and not the FAD account that you thought was Pea commanding it incognito? Well that makes perfect sense to me. How could I have every misread that.
"Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance and isolationism", I can equally see how apparent this was actually giving weight to punishing David Cameron, among other things and the "racism, intolerance and isolationism" is in no way applying that coupling that with "this was a vote for", is much more open a phrase than first reading. In fact the more I look the less likely "racism, intolerance and isolationism" seems to infer a racist mindset.
How did I get it all so very wrong? Must be the time of night. Yes we can probably declare this over.
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
Hmm....I call bulletin.
Yes you asked whether Pea was mental ill and directly after whether FAD was Pea.
If Pea is mentally ill and FAD is Pea...
Yep it's you default. Both guy thought different to you so therefore both are alike and mentally ill.
No huge leaps, it's in your own words
You think racism, isolationism and intolerance is why Brexiters voted to leave....but your opinion is NOT that Brexiters are racist?
Now who is intellectually dishonest?
Out of interest how many Brexiters were there?
Wow Les. That's just another level of bullshit :laugh:
Pea and FAD expressed some similar views. I thought Pea might have had a sockpuppet. It seems I was wrong.
My belief that Pea might be mad was based entirely on his video, and not on anything that was said on the board.
If FAD wasn't responsible for the video, (which obviously he wasn't,) then I would have no reason whatsoever to suggest he was insane.
So no. I clearly didn't accuse FAD of being insane. I didn't imply he was insane. I never made any insinuations, no matter how vague, that FAD was insane.
My comment "Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(" does imply that I believe that I believe a lot of the brexiteers voted that way because of racism, intolerance, or a desire for isolationism.
I stand by that.
I do believe that a large proportion of brexiteers voted for brexit because they're racist. I believe another large proportion voted for brexit because they're intolerant of immigration, even though they may not actually be racists. I believe that another proportion voted brexit because they want splendid isolation.
I also believe that a huge amount of brexiteers wanted to kick David Cameroon, or to register a protest vote at the state of politics.
Anyway, yes I believe a lot of brexiteers are racist. In fact, I firmly believe that a disproportionately high number of brexiteers are racists. But no, I never said that all brexiteers are racists, and I clearly don't believe all brexiteers are racist.
I do believe however, that virtually all racists are brexiteers.
So Les, you're wrong. You're trying to argue with me, claiming that what I said, doesn't really mean what it said, but instead, means what you want it to mean :laugh:
I've patiently explained everything I've said, fairly well.
I think it's time we moved on. I don't want to have to endure another obsessive feud, over an utterly irrelevant non-issue.
I thank we can declare this OVER :thumbup:
Call whomever you like mad or crazy or mentally ill. Not upset, just calling it like I see it.
I understand now perfectly. You thought that Pea was behind the FAD persona/account but only Pea was mad and not the FAD account that you thought was Pea commanding it incognito? Well that makes perfect sense to me. How could I have every misread that.
"Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance and isolationism", I can equally see how apparent this was actually giving weight to punishing David Cameron, among other things and the "racism, intolerance and isolationism" is in no way applying that coupling that with "this was a vote for", is much more open a phrase than first reading. In fact the more I look the less likely "racism, intolerance and isolationism" seems to infer a racist mindset.
How did I get it all so very wrong? Must be the time of night. Yes we can probably declare this over.
Don't worry about it Les.
Anyway, something tells me you weren''t really getting it anywhere near as wrong as you were letting on :2thumbsup:
-
(https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*X5Y6CwgDeIyF2KWpPuIg3w.jpeg)
-
(https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*X5Y6CwgDeIyF2KWpPuIg3w.jpeg)
:lol1: :plus:
There is much truth in that :laugh:
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
I am crazy. I have paperwork for it. If you did say it then I probably just thought that you were being quite intuitive.
Besides. I may not agree with you but I had a rant at you and you took it "like a man" and gave it back. I kinda like you now. You've got balls. You can call me whatever the feck you want.
-
No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
I am crazy. I have paperwork for it. If you did say it then I probably just thought that you were being quite intuitive.
Besides. I may not agree with you but I had a rant at you and you took it "like a man" and gave it back. I kinda like you now. You've got balls. You can call me whatever the feck you want.
I am glad there's no hard feelings. I strongly think that brexit was a terrible decision, but I'm sure we both hope to fuck that I'm wrong. If it turns out that I am, I'll be happy to come on here and we can all laugh at my stupidity :laugh: Nobody will be happier than me.
-
Am seeing reports in the news of France presenting a blueprint proposal today to unite EU members into a single military superstate. It's being described as an ultimatum. The only way for the EU can ever become a UN security council nuclear superpower is to have the UK and/or France in their membership. Am hoping the blueprint is released to the public soon to read what's so ultimatum like about it. Am wondering if France intends to make a big play for military control in the EU if the UK leaves, and if they don't get what they want then they might opt out too. Very interesting stuff, Europeans.
Farage always said about a European army. Cool, they won't fight each other, just fight as one army against which ever Middle East country they fancy blowing up next.
It's no doubt a plan that's been in the works for some time. It makes complete sense the UK and France would want military control over the EU, and if they can't get it then they absolutely should leave the EU, else risk losing their seat of authority over the rest of the globe. The EU can morph into one nation all they want but without an existing nuclear state witin the membership it will never be anything more than a large UN member nation. This is a global power struggle, and it's looking like the UK is very smartly protecting their own butt at the moment.
You raise a very interesting point. It makes me wonder again if we're so global now, why we keep blowing up other parts of the globe.
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Why do you keep parroting phrases like "Little Englander"? There's nothing that's made England more little than dissolving our sovereignty and trying to change from a state/country to a province. You only want people who you agree with to be able to vote. You also want Scotland to be Independent from the UK?!
Hi Benjamin. I wanted to respond to you. Glad you re-appeared.
See, one of the reasons why I voted Brexit is to eventually bring an independent England from the United Kingdom. I think we'd do all right, Jack. I'm also getting tired of citizens being called "little Englander" and "racist" for showing any patriotism of England. We've done a lot of good things as well as bad. I don't give a shit about the colonial past; we're not a superpower or an empire, any more. Shouldn't people in and outside of the UK just be content with that?
I also think the next step would be to gravitate from the corporatism we have to free market capitalism under a limited government. Otherwise, we'll expect the same corrupt shit outside of the EU.
I'd like to hear what you feel about the idea of classical liberalism as a viable solution. I suspect that you're more of a socialist, although I could be wrong.
And I'm probably mentally ill after surviving death. I'm not too worried about detractors on this board because I'm dealing with people who have the same developmental disorder called autism here. However, I'm not looking to get into pissing matches, just some healthy discussion here from people with different angles to this matter.
I tried, but being the quasi neo luddite of the internet world...I can only do my best! :GA:
I'm a nationalist, or have been made into one because of finding out about the efforts to destroy countries in the name of globalisation.
I'm hoping that leaving the EU will remove that excuse and then yes we can get onto the other route causes of why this country is so fucked.
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No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
:dunno:
You were implying that Pea and Ace were the same person, which would obviously mean you thought 'they' were mentally ill. Unless they are the same person and 'they' have schizophrenia and one of them is actually pretty sane :autism:
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One more word from Pea! 8)
Oh, last comment for a while:
"Well, I aborted the video anyway because of such and such reason.
I'm batshit bonkers. There's nothing sane about me apart from my choice of haircut, I guess.
Anyway, I'm going to sit back and watch Breeg fight for justice on a message board. It's very entertaining and inspiring. I like fellow cray crays."
I wanted to see the video! So maybe Pea could reload it and someone could PM it to me? Don't take any notice of people calling you mentally ill for your political views Pea!
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
"This country has had enough of experts."
God you are stupid.
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(https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*X5Y6CwgDeIyF2KWpPuIg3w.jpeg)
:lol1: :plus:
There is much truth in that :laugh:
It's funny, but not accurate. 38% of Scots voted to leave.
If anyone has changed their mind after a few days when we had been in the EU for 45 years, then they are complete imbeciles and I would actually be drawn to agreeing with Odeon that we are too stupid to vote. We are feeling the negative consequences from voting to leave, but still paying the EU £20,000 a minute. Let's wait until we actually decide on a deal, get our money back and then give it 5 years to see how we get on.
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Before EU was Britain independent? Is it a question they could not be so afterwards?
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One more word from Pea! 8)
Oh, last comment for a while:
"Well, I aborted the video anyway because of such and such reason.
I'm batshit bonkers. There's nothing sane about me apart from my choice of haircut, I guess.
Anyway, I'm going to sit back and watch Breeg fight for justice on a message board. It's very entertaining and inspiring. I like fellow cray crays."
I wanted to see the video! So maybe Pea could reload it and someone could PM it to me? Don't take any notice of people calling you mentally ill for your political views Pea!
Don't be so fucking stupid Benji :facepalm2:
I didn't think Pea was mentally ill because of his political views. I think he probably is mentally ill because of the video he posted.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
You are the one who will end up with a recession, and as one of the "working class", you will suffer far worse than the rest.
And London? Yeah, London will suffer, too, and mostly because of cunts like you in forgotten-about shitholes somewhere northwest. Remember this in a year or two, when nothing you hoped would change will have changed but a lot of the other stuff you and your fellow idiots never thought of will have.
Idiot.
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One more word from Pea! 8)
Oh, last comment for a while:
"Well, I aborted the video anyway because of such and such reason.
I'm batshit bonkers. There's nothing sane about me apart from my choice of haircut, I guess.
Anyway, I'm going to sit back and watch Breeg fight for justice on a message board. It's very entertaining and inspiring. I like fellow cray crays."
I wanted to see the video! So maybe Pea could reload it and someone could PM it to me? Don't take any notice of people calling you mentally ill for your political views Pea!
And Pea, if you're reading this. Feel free to let anybody see the video. There's no need for it to be removed.
I suppose what I'm saying is, let Benji see the vide if it makes him happy :thumbup:
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
"This country has had enough of experts."
God you are stupid.
I'm talking about people like you, you fucking moron, and rich students. Why did you quote me on something I didn't even write? Are you that naive and thick that you don't realise 'experts' can be corrupt and funnily enough, wrong? What actual 'experts' are you talking about? You are actually too insecure and retarded to make your own decisions aren't you?
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Before EU was Britain independent? Is it a question they could not be so afterwards?
No, we must be punished.
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One more word from Pea! 8)
Oh, last comment for a while:
"Well, I aborted the video anyway because of such and such reason.
I'm batshit bonkers. There's nothing sane about me apart from my choice of haircut, I guess.
Anyway, I'm going to sit back and watch Breeg fight for justice on a message board. It's very entertaining and inspiring. I like fellow cray crays."
I wanted to see the video! So maybe Pea could reload it and someone could PM it to me? Don't take any notice of people calling you mentally ill for your political views Pea!
Don't be so fucking stupid Benji :facepalm2:
I didn't think Pea was mentally ill because of his political views. I think he probably is mentally ill because of the video he posted.
Okay, well I haven't seen it, so I won't know until I do.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
The working class were far better off before we were forced into the "Common Market" and then tricked into staying with the first referendum. Most working class people could work hard and save for a property.
You don't know shit. It's obvious to anyone that there would be negative consequences to begin with and we are suffering like we've actually left Europe already because of it, but not paying that £20,000 a minute will help this country massively. If people were shown the real facts and educated on the past and how we've been taken in this far without being asked, we'd have voted "leave" in a landslide. You want to talk about lies? All the endless tripe and propaganda from your heroes Cameron and boy George. When's WWIII starting? Apparently voting out was what ISIS wanted? Osbourne was going to launch an emergency budget! Sure, the powers that be will punish the working class for making this decision. But why punish the people? How about starting to tax Google properly? How about stop spending money on sickening wars? Or perfecting nukes which is basically against International Law? We had a "recession" while we were in the EU. The powers that be can do what they like and get away with it. What lies are you talking about anyway? Please don't tell me it's about the NHS thing.
I'd imagine we will just sign a deal that pretty much means we're in the EU but not on paper, and if that happens it will wake people up further to the corruption we are dealing with. We don't make any decisions in the EU anyway, the unelected crooks and their friends do.
Fucking hell you are naive. In the words of EU politicians, you are back to 0. The only way you will access to the Single Market, which, in spite of what you morons think, is the key to your country's economy, is by going back on pretty much everything Boris, Nigel & Co promised you, but without voting rights. It will cost you more than the EU ever did.
Idiot.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
Says the Irish passport holder living in Budapest. This isn't even your vote.
I had as much right to vote as you. This vote probably affected those living in the EU more than the people living in Britain. I wasn't able to vote though, because of a self-imposed voter registration fuck-up.
Your comment does kinda show the true nature of the Brexiteer. Only Little Englanders should be allowed to vote on something that effects everybody :thumbdn:
Let's stop blacks and Asians from voting too. After all, they're not true Brits :zombiefuck:
Why do you keep parroting phrases like "Little Englander"? There's nothing that's made England more little than dissolving our sovereignty and trying to change from a state/country to a province. You only want people who you agree with to be able to vote. You also want Scotland to be Independent from the UK?!
Scotland wants independence from the UK, because they don't want a part of the stupidity.
Idiot.
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It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate. London is a bubble. It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.
Incidentally... the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too.
But that aside, this is all piss and smoke. It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.
It's an indication of people being pissed off and knowing they will be paying for other people's mistakes.
You don't understand that would have been plenty of people voting leave knowing full well that it would/could cost them a lot financially? You don't understand that new strategies have to be made and just maybe things could turn out for the better? Or do you just believe everything your TV says? Also, maybe not everything is about purely money.
:rofl:
It will be, when you don't have it.
But in the mean time, what are those new strategies? Tell me. We all need a laugh.
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I'd think it was hilarious, actually.
You really are an immature shell.
Maybe so but I'm right, and while I may grow up, you'll remain an idiot.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
You are the one who will end up with a recession, and as one of the "working class", you will suffer far worse than the rest.
And London? Yeah, London will suffer, too, and mostly because of cunts like you in forgotten-about shitholes somewhere northwest. Remember this in a year or two, when nothing you hoped would change will have changed but a lot of the other stuff you and your fellow idiots never thought of will have.
Idiot.
Aww, parroting what you heard in the media today? As I said, the establishment and co can do what they like, they can punish the country when the bankers etc/'experts' fuck the world up or they can punish the country when they make a decision that doesn't help the corporate machine. Some of us care about more than just money though. We would rather die on our feet that live on our knees. Cunts like you wouldn't understand principles though.
The people of London will suffer sure, but your heroes will quickly find a way to fuck the people over and make more money.
I've already mentioned numerous ways of getting our country back on track financially. The 'experts' don't seem to keen on mentioning the billions and billions we've wasted on wars and perfecting nukes though.
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
That is your insult default isn't it. No judging, but it is isn't it?
If you disagree with a position or don't like the person, you call them mentally ill or crazy or the like.
I suggest that it usually is more likely that people have different thoughts and perspectives than you and that neither make you right nor more sane for having different thoughts.
By all means though, keep throwing that out there.
A bit like how homosexuals were labelled mentally ill, so again, it's a bit rich. People's views etc should be taken on with logic and reason, not just brushed off as an illness or saying "dats racis".
You're not making much sense. Care to elaborate?
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Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
Britania has survived a thousand challenges over as many years and more.
I think they will survive.
The matter of TeH UK is still in question, though.
I am no less worried than I was on Day One of the vote.
As much as I may dis' the Brits in an historical context, they are very important to this country in the modern era.
I fear the union might not survive, tbh.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
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No I didn't.
Now back to what I said. It is your go-to insult isn't it? You called me crazy, Pea mentally ill and FourAceDeal mentally ill. It is your default insult.
It seems quite blatantly obvious that when you disagree with someone's opinion, you call them mentally ill. I do get the rationale behind it too.
In the same way you described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever), it is a great way or instantly and uncritically delegitimising any point that someone else may have that differs from yours.
Its far more likely that there is racists and not in the majority of either Brexiters and Bremains, but in both ranks. It is also far more likely that mental illness is NOT the reason that people have differing opinions but because your opinions are not the bastion of intellect and reason, but simply run of the mill opinions. Much like most people.
Feel free to keep calling everyone that disagrees with you mentally ill, it is obviously something you are accustomed to doing. By all means call half a population racist if it makes you feel better. I was simply pointing out something I noticed. I do not much care that you do so, just pointing out a pattern.
I called FourAceDeal crazy? I honestly don't remember. Could you show me where, please?
I suggested Pea might be mentally ill, and with good reason. Again, nothing to do with disagreeing with me, and everything to do with the content of his magnificently misjudged video.
I think you"re crazy. Not for disagreeing with me, but because of your behaviour in general. The way you constantly start long term feuds over extremely minor issues, and then refuse to let things drop. They tend to last 3 months :laugh: It's possible that you're not crazy, and are just suffering from a major personality disorder. However, I consider mental illness to be a more charitable explanation than personality disorder.
I have never called all Brexiteers racist.
So Les. Quite a few accusation, but there not very true. Are they :laugh:
:laugh: Aren't they? :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
Back to you
Here's the full quote. Not the edited one you posted :facepalm2:
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
Clearly, this was a post about Pea.
I never came close to accusing FAD of being mentally ill. I had no reason to do so.
So, it seems that you lied when you accused me of saying FAD is mentally ill :thumbdn:
Even by your standards Les, that is pitiful. It reeks of intellectual dishonesty :thumbdn:
Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
I fully stand by that comment, and believe it to be true now, just as much as I did when I posted it.
However, that's very different to saying I "described all the Brexiters as being racists (yes the whole 17 million or whatever.")
At no point have I described all 17 million brexiteers as racists. Clearly not every brexiteer is a racist.
So Les, it looks like at best, you were completely wrong, and are desperately trying to quote posts that vaguely back your false claims :thumbdn:
At worst, you were just downright lying :thumbdn:
It's hard to believe that you are genuinely stupid enough to really believe that my posts accused FAD of being mentally ill, or that I accused every brexiteer of being a racist. If I am unable to believe that your mistakes are down to stupidity, then I am left with no option but to conclude that they are down to dishonesty.
Not cool Les. Not cool at all :thumbdn:
Hmm....I call bulletin.
Yes you asked whether Pea was mental ill and directly after whether FAD was Pea.
If Pea is mentally ill and FAD is Pea...
Yep it's you default. Both guy thought different to you so therefore both are alike and mentally ill.
No huge leaps, it's in your own words
You think racism, isolationism and intolerance is why Brexiters voted to leave....but your opinion is NOT that Brexiters are racist?
Now who is intellectually dishonest?
Out of interest how many Brexiters were there?
She proved you wrong. Admit it.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
"This country has had enough of experts."
God you are stupid.
I'm talking about people like you, you fucking moron, and rich students. Why did you quote me on something I didn't even write? Are you that naive and thick that you don't realise 'experts' can be corrupt and funnily enough, wrong? What actual 'experts' are you talking about? You are actually too insecure and retarded to make your own decisions aren't you?
It's a quote that fit, because you're not letting facts get in your way.
God you will suffer.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
The working class were far better off before we were forced into the "Common Market" and then tricked into staying with the first referendum. Most working class people could work hard and save for a property.
You don't know shit. It's obvious to anyone that there would be negative consequences to begin with and we are suffering like we've actually left Europe already because of it, but not paying that £20,000 a minute will help this country massively. If people were shown the real facts and educated on the past and how we've been taken in this far without being asked, we'd have voted "leave" in a landslide. You want to talk about lies? All the endless tripe and propaganda from your heroes Cameron and boy George. When's WWIII starting? Apparently voting out was what ISIS wanted? Osbourne was going to launch an emergency budget! Sure, the powers that be will punish the working class for making this decision. But why punish the people? How about starting to tax Google properly? How about stop spending money on sickening wars? Or perfecting nukes which is basically against International Law? We had a "recession" while we were in the EU. The powers that be can do what they like and get away with it. What lies are you talking about anyway? Please don't tell me it's about the NHS thing.
I'd imagine we will just sign a deal that pretty much means we're in the EU but not on paper, and if that happens it will wake people up further to the corruption we are dealing with. We don't make any decisions in the EU anyway, the unelected crooks and their friends do.
Fucking hell you are naive. In the words of EU politicians, you are back to 0. The only way you will access to the Single Market, which, in spite of what you morons think, is the key to your country's economy, is by going back on pretty much everything Boris, Nigel & Co promised you, but without voting rights. It will cost you more than the EU ever did.
Idiot.
Aww, you listen to EU politicians. Our country is financially ruined, the EU relies on us, hence why they are so angry. Or you think they're so angry cause they care so much about the UK's working people? :hahaha: All we have is a false economy based on mass immigration. We have been monumentally fucked for years, but the media lets Osbourne and other 'experts' off because they suck the right dick. You're so thick, naive and tragic that I feel genuinely sorry for you.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
Says the Irish passport holder living in Budapest. This isn't even your vote.
I had as much right to vote as you. This vote probably affected those living in the EU more than the people living in Britain. I wasn't able to vote though, because of a self-imposed voter registration fuck-up.
Your comment does kinda show the true nature of the Brexiteer. Only Little Englanders should be allowed to vote on something that effects everybody :thumbdn:
Let's stop blacks and Asians from voting too. After all, they're not true Brits :zombiefuck:
Why do you keep parroting phrases like "Little Englander"? There's nothing that's made England more little than dissolving our sovereignty and trying to change from a state/country to a province. You only want people who you agree with to be able to vote. You also want Scotland to be Independent from the UK?!
Scotland wants independence from the UK, because they don't want a part of the stupidity.
Idiot.
Scotland tried to win 'independence' in 2014, and then there was talk of another referendum after last years election when the SNP wiped out Labour. Sturgeon has been waiting for an opportunity to get another referendum.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
You are the one who will end up with a recession, and as one of the "working class", you will suffer far worse than the rest.
And London? Yeah, London will suffer, too, and mostly because of cunts like you in forgotten-about shitholes somewhere northwest. Remember this in a year or two, when nothing you hoped would change will have changed but a lot of the other stuff you and your fellow idiots never thought of will have.
Idiot.
Aww, parroting what you heard in the media today? As I said, the establishment and co can do what they like, they can punish the country when the bankers etc/'experts' fuck the world up or they can punish the country when they make a decision that doesn't help the corporate machine. Some of us care about more than just money though. We would rather die on our feet that live on our knees. Cunts like you wouldn't understand principles though.
The people of London will suffer sure, but your heroes will quickly find a way to fuck the people over and make more money.
I've already mentioned numerous ways of getting our country back on track financially. The 'experts' don't seem to keen on mentioning the billions and billions we've wasted on wars and perfecting nukes though.
Links, please.
And this vote was never about wars and nukes. It was to some considerable extent about what to do with all that money you are spending on membership fees. Now, would you mind telling the class what your guys promised that money would go to? And would you then tell us what they told you after the vote?
Would you also like to tell the class about the Single Market and its importance to your country? And then, perhaps, parroting what the EU leaders told your country about the conditions for access to that market?
Perhaps you could then be so kind as to explain the implications of this.
Basically, the UK is now going to have to negotiate a deal that can never be as good as the one as Cameron had. And there are a lot of politicians in the EU that will laugh at you because they are angry. This affects them, too, sure, but they are comparatively better off than you are.
-
It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate. London is a bubble. It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.
Incidentally... the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too.
But that aside, this is all piss and smoke. It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.
It's an indication of people being pissed off and knowing they will be paying for other people's mistakes.
You don't understand that would have been plenty of people voting leave knowing full well that it would/could cost them a lot financially? You don't understand that new strategies have to be made and just maybe things could turn out for the better? Or do you just believe everything your TV says? Also, maybe not everything is about purely money.
:rofl:
It will be, when you don't have it.
But in the mean time, what are those new strategies? Tell me. We all need a laugh.
I got through a "recession" on very low wages, sure i'll cope.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
"This country has had enough of experts."
God you are stupid.
I'm talking about people like you, you fucking moron, and rich students. Why did you quote me on something I didn't even write? Are you that naive and thick that you don't realise 'experts' can be corrupt and funnily enough, wrong? What actual 'experts' are you talking about? You are actually too insecure and retarded to make your own decisions aren't you?
It's a quote that fit, because you're not letting facts get in your way.
God you will suffer.
Please enlighten me with these facts?
-
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
-
You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
The working class were far better off before we were forced into the "Common Market" and then tricked into staying with the first referendum. Most working class people could work hard and save for a property.
You don't know shit. It's obvious to anyone that there would be negative consequences to begin with and we are suffering like we've actually left Europe already because of it, but not paying that £20,000 a minute will help this country massively. If people were shown the real facts and educated on the past and how we've been taken in this far without being asked, we'd have voted "leave" in a landslide. You want to talk about lies? All the endless tripe and propaganda from your heroes Cameron and boy George. When's WWIII starting? Apparently voting out was what ISIS wanted? Osbourne was going to launch an emergency budget! Sure, the powers that be will punish the working class for making this decision. But why punish the people? How about starting to tax Google properly? How about stop spending money on sickening wars? Or perfecting nukes which is basically against International Law? We had a "recession" while we were in the EU. The powers that be can do what they like and get away with it. What lies are you talking about anyway? Please don't tell me it's about the NHS thing.
I'd imagine we will just sign a deal that pretty much means we're in the EU but not on paper, and if that happens it will wake people up further to the corruption we are dealing with. We don't make any decisions in the EU anyway, the unelected crooks and their friends do.
Fucking hell you are naive. In the words of EU politicians, you are back to 0. The only way you will access to the Single Market, which, in spite of what you morons think, is the key to your country's economy, is by going back on pretty much everything Boris, Nigel & Co promised you, but without voting rights. It will cost you more than the EU ever did.
Idiot.
Aww, you listen to EU politicians. Our country is financially ruined, the EU relies on us, hence why they are so angry. Or you think they're so angry cause they care so much about the UK's working people? :hahaha: All we have is a false economy based on mass immigration. We have been monumentally fucked for years, but the media lets Osbourne and other 'experts' off because they suck the right dick. You're so thick, naive and tragic that I feel genuinely sorry for you.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://qz.com/715845/british-stocks-lost-125-billion-after-brexit-or-15-years-worth-of-eu-contributions/ :hahaha:
Idiot.
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/25/brexit-live-emergency-meetings-eu-uk-leave-vote?page=with:block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48#block-576e5920e4b0f43038109c48
The Labour frontbencher, Seema Malhotra, is speaking just ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech in central London today.
The unshared prosperity, she adds, has been an important driver for how people felt about membership of the EU. But there are other concerns too around community cohesion.
She reads out a message from a teacher in her constituency who spoke of an incident that occurred after the referendum result. The teacher was escorting a group of young children when they were racially abused by members of the public.
They shouted: “Why are there only 10 white faces in this class? Why are you not educating the English?
Children aged six were crying and saying that they were going to have to leave the country, according to the teacher. Malhotra says that people are in need of reassurance.
What a scummy, piece of shit, country we've become :soapbox:
Personally, I like my country and the people it contains. You are free to leave at anytime.
I hear that attitude a lot from people like you. Personally, I find it a bit vile :thumbdn: Why should somebody be expected to leave their country, just because they don't like the direction it's going in? Surely it would be best if they stayed and tried to change things.
Anyway, I've already left :P I live in Budapest, and after the result of the referendum, I've never been more relieved.
I hold an Irish passport too, and from now on, I am referring to myself as Irish :green: I would be embarrassed to be associated with the Little Englanders who voted to leave.
You really should read what you write. :facepalm2:
What can I say. I've always hated the attitude, "If you don't like the direction of the country, you"re free to leave." Especially coming from somebody who appears to have just voted to make it significantly harder to leave the country :-\
Says the Irish passport holder living in Budapest. This isn't even your vote.
I had as much right to vote as you. This vote probably affected those living in the EU more than the people living in Britain. I wasn't able to vote though, because of a self-imposed voter registration fuck-up.
Your comment does kinda show the true nature of the Brexiteer. Only Little Englanders should be allowed to vote on something that effects everybody :thumbdn:
Let's stop blacks and Asians from voting too. After all, they're not true Brits :zombiefuck:
Why do you keep parroting phrases like "Little Englander"? There's nothing that's made England more little than dissolving our sovereignty and trying to change from a state/country to a province. You only want people who you agree with to be able to vote. You also want Scotland to be Independent from the UK?!
Scotland wants independence from the UK, because they don't want a part of the stupidity.
Idiot.
Scotland tried to win 'independence' in 2014, and then there was talk of another referendum after last years election when the SNP wiped out Labour. Sturgeon has been waiting for an opportunity to get another referendum.
Yes, and this time she will. And she will be right, and you will suffer more.
-
It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.
That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate. London is a bubble. It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.
Incidentally... the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too.
But that aside, this is all piss and smoke. It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.
It's an indication of people being pissed off and knowing they will be paying for other people's mistakes.
You don't understand that would have been plenty of people voting leave knowing full well that it would/could cost them a lot financially? You don't understand that new strategies have to be made and just maybe things could turn out for the better? Or do you just believe everything your TV says? Also, maybe not everything is about purely money.
:rofl:
It will be, when you don't have it.
But in the mean time, what are those new strategies? Tell me. We all need a laugh.
I got through a "recession" on very low wages, sure i'll cope.
Good. You'll have plenty of practice.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
"This country has had enough of experts."
God you are stupid.
I'm talking about people like you, you fucking moron, and rich students. Why did you quote me on something I didn't even write? Are you that naive and thick that you don't realise 'experts' can be corrupt and funnily enough, wrong? What actual 'experts' are you talking about? You are actually too insecure and retarded to make your own decisions aren't you?
It's a quote that fit, because you're not letting facts get in your way.
God you will suffer.
Please enlighten me with these facts?
Sure.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/news/economy/brexit-broken-promises/
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/europe/britain-referendum-brexit-european-union.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a3a92744-3a52-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7.html#axzz4D0laYLye
Let me know if you need more.
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Oh, and this is sort of fun. In that horrible traffic accident victim kind of way. Lots of twisted metal.
-
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
You are the one who will end up with a recession, and as one of the "working class", you will suffer far worse than the rest.
And London? Yeah, London will suffer, too, and mostly because of cunts like you in forgotten-about shitholes somewhere northwest. Remember this in a year or two, when nothing you hoped would change will have changed but a lot of the other stuff you and your fellow idiots never thought of will have.
Idiot.
Aww, parroting what you heard in the media today? As I said, the establishment and co can do what they like, they can punish the country when the bankers etc/'experts' fuck the world up or they can punish the country when they make a decision that doesn't help the corporate machine. Some of us care about more than just money though. We would rather die on our feet that live on our knees. Cunts like you wouldn't understand principles though.
The people of London will suffer sure, but your heroes will quickly find a way to fuck the people over and make more money.
I've already mentioned numerous ways of getting our country back on track financially. The 'experts' don't seem to keen on mentioning the billions and billions we've wasted on wars and perfecting nukes though.
Links, please.
And this vote was never about wars and nukes. It was to some considerable extent about what to do with all that money you are spending on membership fees. Now, would you mind telling the class what your guys promised that money would go to? And would you then tell us what they told you after the vote?
Would you also like to tell the class about the Single Market and its importance to your country? And then, perhaps, parroting what the EU leaders told your country about the conditions for access to that market?
Perhaps you could then be so kind as to explain the implications of this.
Basically, the UK is now going to have to negotiate a deal that can never be as good as the one as Cameron had. And there are a lot of politicians in the EU that will laugh at you because they are angry. This affects them, too, sure, but they are comparatively better off than you are.
Links on what?
Of course it wasn't, none of the crooks on either side wanted to talk about the worst problems. Getting rid of the EU scapegoat was always what I hoped for. People will now be wondering why we still have mass immigration when we're 'out' of the EU. Maybe people will question Israel's trading deal with the EU and wonder why they don't need to be flooded with hundreds of thousands of migrants, who knows. They aren't "my guys", I couldn't give a flying fuck about Boris, Farage or Gove. Though it was twisted what was said. It was said that we could spend the £350 million on things like the NHS, it wasn't claimed that we would spend £350 million on the NHS. Pretty much all politicians lie and play games, I know that. I don't ignore them like you just because that particular one is championing something I am in favor of. Your hero Osbourne said he'd carry out an emergency budget if we left, which has been proven to be a lie.
Hmm, the single market doesn't seem to have helped us in the slightest and it is all peanuts when compared to wars. I'm not sure why this tiny full up island would have to be blackmailed into continuing with the open border policy just to be part of the single market. We have a lot of weight, we should demand to purely trade with EU and forget about mass immigration, as the British people have had enough.
Cameron didn't get any deal, he just came back with virtually nothing and crowed about how wonderfully he'd done, luckily people saw through it.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
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Though it was twisted what was said. It was said that we could spend the £350 million on things like the NHS, it wasn't claimed that we would spend £350 million on the NHS.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/05/14/97905329_BRISTOL_ENGLAND_-_MAY_14__Conservative_MP_Boris_Johnson_speaks_as_he_visits_Bristol_on_May-large_trans++KjggCdpvXjoraOzAlyzu1MOSRhbr0ZABex7Vh5dC_YU.jpg)
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
The working class were far better off before we were forced into the "Common Market" and then tricked into staying with the first referendum. Most working class people could work hard and save for a property.
You don't know shit. It's obvious to anyone that there would be negative consequences to begin with and we are suffering like we've actually left Europe already because of it, but not paying that £20,000 a minute will help this country massively. If people were shown the real facts and educated on the past and how we've been taken in this far without being asked, we'd have voted "leave" in a landslide. You want to talk about lies? All the endless tripe and propaganda from your heroes Cameron and boy George. When's WWIII starting? Apparently voting out was what ISIS wanted? Osbourne was going to launch an emergency budget! Sure, the powers that be will punish the working class for making this decision. But why punish the people? How about starting to tax Google properly? How about stop spending money on sickening wars? Or perfecting nukes which is basically against International Law? We had a "recession" while we were in the EU. The powers that be can do what they like and get away with it. What lies are you talking about anyway? Please don't tell me it's about the NHS thing.
I'd imagine we will just sign a deal that pretty much means we're in the EU but not on paper, and if that happens it will wake people up further to the corruption we are dealing with. We don't make any decisions in the EU anyway, the unelected crooks and their friends do.
Fucking hell you are naive. In the words of EU politicians, you are back to 0. The only way you will access to the Single Market, which, in spite of what you morons think, is the key to your country's economy, is by going back on pretty much everything Boris, Nigel & Co promised you, but without voting rights. It will cost you more than the EU ever did.
Idiot.
Aww, you listen to EU politicians. Our country is financially ruined, the EU relies on us, hence why they are so angry. Or you think they're so angry cause they care so much about the UK's working people? :hahaha: All we have is a false economy based on mass immigration. We have been monumentally fucked for years, but the media lets Osbourne and other 'experts' off because they suck the right dick. You're so thick, naive and tragic that I feel genuinely sorry for you.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://qz.com/715845/british-stocks-lost-125-billion-after-brexit-or-15-years-worth-of-eu-contributions/ :hahaha:
Idiot.
Duh, that's after a day. A lot of that is the fault of the arrogant cunts that didn't think the British people would dare vote against the establishment. Stuff like this was always going to happen. I know you're desperate to be proved right in a hurry to help your fragile ego, but we cannot make any judgments until we've made a deal and seen the benefits of that £20,000 a minute back.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
I watched through the clip. Did you? The headlines say "could trigger WWIII" but Cameron didn't.
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You're in for a surprise, Benji. Brexit will hurt the "working class" far more than the any other "class" but unfortunately you and your likes have yet to realise it. I'm betting you will, though, since a recession is very much character-building in that respect.
I'm also betting that even now, a mere two days after the fact, enough people who voted Leave have woken up to spot the first couple of the many broken promises and outright lies, and a very different result would be the outcome if another referendum was held.
And finally, while Merkel and a few others think there is no reason to be particularly nasty, they are a minority. I suspect any deal the UK is likely to get will either severely limit access to the European market or force the UK to agree with every major regulation in place, meaning that in reality, Brexis will have achieved very little beyond the UK losing its right to vote.
The working class were far better off before we were forced into the "Common Market" and then tricked into staying with the first referendum. Most working class people could work hard and save for a property.
You don't know shit. It's obvious to anyone that there would be negative consequences to begin with and we are suffering like we've actually left Europe already because of it, but not paying that £20,000 a minute will help this country massively. If people were shown the real facts and educated on the past and how we've been taken in this far without being asked, we'd have voted "leave" in a landslide. You want to talk about lies? All the endless tripe and propaganda from your heroes Cameron and boy George. When's WWIII starting? Apparently voting out was what ISIS wanted? Osbourne was going to launch an emergency budget! Sure, the powers that be will punish the working class for making this decision. But why punish the people? How about starting to tax Google properly? How about stop spending money on sickening wars? Or perfecting nukes which is basically against International Law? We had a "recession" while we were in the EU. The powers that be can do what they like and get away with it. What lies are you talking about anyway? Please don't tell me it's about the NHS thing.
I'd imagine we will just sign a deal that pretty much means we're in the EU but not on paper, and if that happens it will wake people up further to the corruption we are dealing with. We don't make any decisions in the EU anyway, the unelected crooks and their friends do.
Fucking hell you are naive. In the words of EU politicians, you are back to 0. The only way you will access to the Single Market, which, in spite of what you morons think, is the key to your country's economy, is by going back on pretty much everything Boris, Nigel & Co promised you, but without voting rights. It will cost you more than the EU ever did.
Idiot.
Aww, you listen to EU politicians. Our country is financially ruined, the EU relies on us, hence why they are so angry. Or you think they're so angry cause they care so much about the UK's working people? :hahaha: All we have is a false economy based on mass immigration. We have been monumentally fucked for years, but the media lets Osbourne and other 'experts' off because they suck the right dick. You're so thick, naive and tragic that I feel genuinely sorry for you.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3551419/Osborne-overshoots-borrowing-target-74bn-budget-deficit-financial-year.html
http://qz.com/715845/british-stocks-lost-125-billion-after-brexit-or-15-years-worth-of-eu-contributions/ :hahaha:
Idiot.
Duh, that's after a day. A lot of that is the fault of the arrogant cunts that didn't think the British people would dare vote against the establishment. Stuff like this was always going to happen. I know you're desperate to be proved right in a hurry to help your fragile ego, but we cannot make any judgments until we've made a deal and seen the benefits of that £20,000 a minute back.
Duh.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/27/property-and-financial-shares-slide-as-referendum-fallout-hits-stock-markets
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You really don't understand what the working class actually are. You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for. The working class have had enough of their wages being smashed. I live here and have worked with as well as for the working class of the past and present. You live in a dream world Butterflies. The result speaks for itself. Live with it.
You can't move away from the country and tell us what we should vote for.
Why? Technically I had as much right to vote as you :-\
You really don't understand what the working class actually are.
Yes I do. I smell them every time I use public transport :P
Seriously, it's you who doesn't understand what the working class are. You think that being working class means racist, ignorant, and uneducated. This is not what working class is. That is an insult to the working class.
Okay, "can't" was the wrong word, it's just a bit rich.
No I do not, that's what you're putting them down as but saying they aren't the working class because they're "racist" etc. A lot of the working class are like that, well most of the country are ignorant and just have selected education. It's the people who think they are so well educated and are so smug because they think they know so much better, but in reality they are just as naive and oblivious and are doing the work of the corporate machine for them.
"This country has had enough of experts."
God you are stupid.
I'm talking about people like you, you fucking moron, and rich students. Why did you quote me on something I didn't even write? Are you that naive and thick that you don't realise 'experts' can be corrupt and funnily enough, wrong? What actual 'experts' are you talking about? You are actually too insecure and retarded to make your own decisions aren't you?
It's a quote that fit, because you're not letting facts get in your way.
God you will suffer.
Please enlighten me with these facts?
Sure.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/news/economy/brexit-broken-promises/
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/europe/britain-referendum-brexit-european-union.html
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a3a92744-3a52-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7.html#axzz4D0laYLye
Let me know if you need more.
Just the same old tripe. I've already answered these points.
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Though it was twisted what was said. It was said that we could spend the £350 million on things like the NHS, it wasn't claimed that we would spend £350 million on the NHS.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/05/14/97905329_BRISTOL_ENGLAND_-_MAY_14__Conservative_MP_Boris_Johnson_speaks_as_he_visits_Bristol_on_May-large_trans++KjggCdpvXjoraOzAlyzu1MOSRhbr0ZABex7Vh5dC_YU.jpg)
Fine. Well then let Boris and co answer to that, as they should.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
I watched through the clip. Did you? The headlines say "could trigger WWIII" but Cameron didn't.
I got that wrong, he didn't actually say those words, but I'm sure you'll be honest and admit that's the exact point he's trying to make. Sick of him to do such a thing.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
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You raise a very interesting point. It makes me wonder again if we're so global now, why we keep blowing up other parts of the globe.
Not really so global, but getting there, and probably about breaking some eggs or some such metaphor. Europe needs the middle east's resources and people. There are definite UN initiatives in place for population control, economic sustainability, and interestingly enough, empowering women. Right now, the world needs European countries to be successful more so than countries in the middle east.
http://qz.com/715845/british-stocks-lost-125-billion-after-brexit-or-15-years-worth-of-eu-contributions/ :hahaha:
The FTSE 100 has completely recovered to pre brexit levels as of today, and the FTSE 250 has recovered by 5%. Not a bad bounce back for one week. Thinking no one really expects the bottom to fall out of anything.
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Oh, and this is sort of fun. In that horrible traffic accident victim kind of way. Lots of twisted metal.
In a weird way, I agree!
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The latest from the Pea!
Benji's asking me for video responses. Could you post them for me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd2GyJGq-CA&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DweJN7Uk9FY
"For England, Benji!"
Intensitysquared: Response to BenjaminBreeg
Video's gone and I don't have a copy. So I'm uploading this one instead. I mention SNP constituencies and the Plymouth Colony disaster in this video. Apologi...
youtube.com
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This is interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0WeURiShfU
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Wondering if the UK will survive this. :-\
Britania has survived a thousand challenges over as many years and more.
I think they will survive.
The matter of TeH UK is still in question, though.
I am no less worried than I was on Day One of the vote.
As much as I may dis' the Brits in an historical context, they are very important to this country in the modern era.
I fear the union might not survive, tbh.
Kind of what I was getting at in my middle sentence.
I can not really manage contrition, but, while I have piled on a bit to the Brits over most of my life. I do not want to see the union dissolve.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
I watched through the clip. Did you? The headlines say "could trigger WWIII" but Cameron didn't.
I got that wrong, he didn't actually say those words, but I'm sure you'll be honest and admit that's the exact point he's trying to make. Sick of him to do such a thing.
Just as you got it wrong with NHS and the £350 million. Get used to being wrong a lot.
And no, he did not imply WW3. If you're honest, you'll admit it. He was rather referring to one of the main reasons to why the EU came to be in the first place, which is still a valid reason.
And today it got even more obvious that the Leave campaigners lack any kind of plan. Boris doesn't even believe in the shit he advocated, and he pretty much admitted it by stepping down. I guess it came as a huge shock to him and his former pal Gove that Cameron had not intention to invoke Article 50 or help negotiate anything. Now, none of them is keen on invoking Article 50 because they know it equals political suicide. Somebody is going to be blamed when it all goes to shit.
Did you know that it's most likely illegal for them to do it anyway? Only legislation can repeal legislation, so the Parliament--and the Queen--will both have to approve the new legislation giving the PM the power to invoke Article 50.
At which point the House of Lords could easily block the legislation for another year.
In the meanwhile, nothing gets negotiated because the EU has clearly said that no negotiations will take place before the UK state their intentions. Even then, the negotiations are likely to be about the exit, not about a new deal. This was pointed out by the EU Trade Commissioner today.
Of course, while all this is happening (that is, very little is happening beyond the pound dropping and your economy going to shit), you are still a member of the EU but one shunned by the other members.
But eventually, if by some miracle the new legislation is passed and a future PM is brave enough for a political suicide, Article 50 is invoked and a minimum of two years is spent negotiating the terms of that exit, eventually there could be negotiations for a new deal. Now, those will take years and years--Canada, anyone?--and if the UK wants the Single Market, a minimum, non-negotiable, condition of that is free movement, but also a number of other conditions that nobody mentioned before the referendum. All of which the UK (or what's left of it) will accept because by then, the business is far more important than Nigel and his cronies, and the backwater Wales farmers who voted for them, because the recession has arrived, jobs are scarce and a lot of institutions, cities and forgotten-about villages, not to mention the NHS, all remember fondly the EU structural contributions that, once upon a time, helped them prosper.
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
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You raise a very interesting point. It makes me wonder again if we're so global now, why we keep blowing up other parts of the globe.
Not really so global, but getting there, and probably about breaking some eggs or some such metaphor. Europe needs the middle east's resources and people. There are definite UN initiatives in place for population control, economic sustainability, and interestingly enough, empowering women. Right now, the world needs European countries to be successful more so than countries in the middle east.
http://qz.com/715845/british-stocks-lost-125-billion-after-brexit-or-15-years-worth-of-eu-contributions/ :hahaha:
The FTSE 100 has completely recovered to pre brexit levels as of today, and the FTSE 250 has recovered by 5%. Not a bad bounce back for one week. Thinking no one really expects the bottom to fall out of anything.
A lot of the FTSE 100 is global trading, outside the UK, which apparently helps explain why it was able to rebound so strongly.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
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A lot of the FTSE 100 is global trading, outside the UK, which apparently helps explain why it was able to rebound so strongly.
That's correct. The FTSE 250 rose again today 1.68%, which is a 45% recovery from the lowest point 3 days ago.
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How long was UK independent? 1000 years? Anybody imagine they will self-destruct now they are out? Long term they'll be fine
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Boris surprised me.
"leaving left" was what I found on my doormat.
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How long was UK independent? 1000 years? Anybody imagine they will self-destruct now they are out? Long term they'll be fine
If you look at our history we have been a truly great nation for almost all of it - I know we shouldn't be proud of it but we had the largest empire of all time. We've always boxed well above our weight. The only time we've been shit has been the last 43 years in th EU.
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How long was UK independent? 1000 years? Anybody imagine they will self-destruct now they are out? Long term they'll be fine
If you look at our history we have been a truly great nation for almost all of it - I know we shouldn't be proud of it but we had the largest empire of all time. We've always boxed well above our weight. The only time we've been shit has been the last 43 years in th EU.
True.
Its just a problem that you sent you best to the colonies. ;)
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He called all limey vets idiots who served their country with their limbs blown off for voting out.
Not cool, man. Noooot cooooool.
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FWIW I voted to stay in, partly because I figured anything being run by Boris Johnson was likely to become a car crash and the credibility of their Brexit promises was unravelling fast (as it turned out... shocking, I know), and partly because our sovereignty is illusory anyway - the elite would still be in charge regardless, the same powers pull the strings. At least staying in would have prevented the Tories dismantling employment and disability rights.
I'm pretty sure as a country we'll muddle through regardless though. The thing that really does bother me is that by using immigration as the main argument the Brexit campaign was uncomfortably close to playing the race card - and subsequently racist attacks and incidents of targeted hate speech have gone through the roof - the racists feel bold enough to openly challenge minorities as well as EU migrants. The issue is not so much that 52% of voters are racists - most folk who voted out didn't do so because they hate them forrins - its that the racist cunts now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and now they're gonna 'take their country back, so you can all fuck off back where you came from' :hitler:
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You raise a very interesting point. It makes me wonder again if we're so global now, why we keep blowing up other parts of the globe.
Not really so global, but getting there, and probably about breaking some eggs or some such metaphor. Europe needs the middle east's resources and people. There are definite UN initiatives in place for population control, economic sustainability, and interestingly enough, empowering women. Right now, the world needs European countries to be successful more so than countries in the middle east.
http://qz.com/715845/british-stocks-lost-125-billion-after-brexit-or-15-years-worth-of-eu-contributions/ :hahaha:
The FTSE 100 has completely recovered to pre brexit levels as of today, and the FTSE 250 has recovered by 5%. Not a bad bounce back for one week. Thinking no one really expects the bottom to fall out of anything.
Amazing, considering how much frenzy the media and the corrupted politicians are causing. There will be more shit hitting the fan next week. Mass murderer's like Alastair Campbell have been trying to get their words in while they can blaming Corbyn for the referendum result, the usual crap. They are trying their best to make some smoke to hide away from their crimes and are frantically trying to remove Corbyn before the Chilcot Report is released next week. Hopefully this year people like Campbell and Blair can be locked away and also we can have a General Election. Big change could be on its way.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
I watched through the clip. Did you? The headlines say "could trigger WWIII" but Cameron didn't.
I got that wrong, he didn't actually say those words, but I'm sure you'll be honest and admit that's the exact point he's trying to make. Sick of him to do such a thing.
Just as you got it wrong with NHS and the £350 million. Get used to being wrong a lot.
And no, he did not imply WW3. If you're honest, you'll admit it. He was rather referring to one of the main reasons to why the EU came to be in the first place, which is still a valid reason.
And today it got even more obvious that the Leave campaigners lack any kind of plan. Boris doesn't even believe in the shit he advocated, and he pretty much admitted it by stepping down. I guess it came as a huge shock to him and his former pal Gove that Cameron had not intention to invoke Article 50 or help negotiate anything. Now, none of them is keen on invoking Article 50 because they know it equals political suicide. Somebody is going to be blamed when it all goes to shit.
Did you know that it's most likely illegal for them to do it anyway? Only legislation can repeal legislation, so the Parliament--and the Queen--will both have to approve the new legislation giving the PM the power to invoke Article 50.
At which point the House of Lords could easily block the legislation for another year.
In the meanwhile, nothing gets negotiated because the EU has clearly said that no negotiations will take place before the UK state their intentions. Even then, the negotiations are likely to be about the exit, not about a new deal. This was pointed out by the EU Trade Commissioner today.
Of course, while all this is happening (that is, very little is happening beyond the pound dropping and your economy going to shit), you are still a member of the EU but one shunned by the other members.
But eventually, if by some miracle the new legislation is passed and a future PM is brave enough for a political suicide, Article 50 is invoked and a minimum of two years is spent negotiating the terms of that exit, eventually there could be negotiations for a new deal. Now, those will take years and years--Canada, anyone?--and if the UK wants the Single Market, a minimum, non-negotiable, condition of that is free movement, but also a number of other conditions that nobody mentioned before the referendum. All of which the UK (or what's left of it) will accept because by then, the business is far more important than Nigel and his cronies, and the backwater Wales farmers who voted for them, because the recession has arrived, jobs are scarce and a lot of institutions, cities and forgotten-about villages, not to mention the NHS, all remember fondly the EU structural contributions that, once upon a time, helped them prosper.
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
I thought you were talking about Farage anyway. Like I said, I didn't pay too much attention to Boris and Gove or any of the debates, I've seen it all before and focused more on radio shows where "experts" from both sides were coming on and just saying the complete opposite from each other. The intention was to confuse people.
"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?
"I would never be so rash to make that assumption."
Sound like he was talking in any kind of past tense there ^ does it? Once again you prove you cannot deal with or admit when you are wrong. Grow up.
Boris would not employ Gove's friends like George Osborne, so Gove turned on Boris as he probably felt he'd betrayed his chums enough. We need to have an immediate General Election. The trouble is, your heroes were so arrogant and thought the public was too stupid and easily fooled to vote to leave the EU, so they made no plans in case of a leave vote. The Leave campaigners were not selected by the public, and to be honest it should have been Daniel Hannan or Nigel Farage at the helm, people who were actually prepared to leave and prepared for leaving and actually believe what they say. It should actually be up to David Cameron to enforce the democratic wishes of the people, but instead, your hero cowardly resigned immediately. I actually agree with the EU on this, we need to leave first then strike a deal. We should strike a deal like Israel has, trade with the EU and just have an immigration system that brings back Brits from abroad and removes non Brits perhaps? We definitely need a General Election soon, choose a government with them knowing they have to take us out and strike a deal and let the public choose.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if we just stayed in the EU, but then they know that could lead to riots or civil war. Peter Hitchens who is against the EU, is also against referendums, for the reasons you stated.
Like I said, we can have a deal like Israel, and people should be asking that question why they get away with it. You pray you are right, but I have faith in the country to fight for justice. It's time we take on the big corporations and make them pay real tax. We can also renationalise our Post Office and Rail Service if we get away from the EU and those sick trade treaties that we done against what is best for the people of the country.
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The latest from the Pea!
Benji's asking me for video responses. Could you post them for me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd2GyJGq-CA&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DweJN7Uk9FY
"For England, Benji!"
Intensitysquared: Response to BenjaminBreeg
Video's gone and I don't have a copy. So I'm uploading this one instead. I mention SNP constituencies and the Plymouth Colony disaster in this video. Apologi...
youtube.com
Thanks, I will take a look :viking:
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
I knew the facts I needed to know long before you moved here. I did not vote for Boris or Gove you moron, I voted to leave the European Union. No one knew Cameron was going to resign. You have very good hindsight though :wanker:
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
He just makes up the rules up as he goes along. The crap he's coming out with shouldn't even need to be corrected, he ought to know better, he literally just parrots what he sees on TV.
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A lot of the FTSE 100 is global trading, outside the UK, which apparently helps explain why it was able to rebound so strongly.
That's correct. The FTSE 250 rose again today 1.68%, which is a 45% recovery from the lowest point 3 days ago.
It was only influenced by "Brexit" when it was at its lowest in Odeon's world :lol1: If you ever need someone to do work off a high building, Odeon is your man, cause that cunt sure is a cherry picker.
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How long was UK independent? 1000 years? Anybody imagine they will self-destruct now they are out? Long term they'll be fine
If you look at our history we have been a truly great nation for almost all of it - I know we shouldn't be proud of it but we had the largest empire of all time. We've always boxed well above our weight. The only time we've been shit has been the last 43 years in th EU.
Yeah, people thought they were voting to join the "Common Market", but Heath was playing a trick. We should never have joined.
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FWIW I voted to stay in, partly because I figured anything being run by Boris Johnson was likely to become a car crash and the credibility of their Brexit promises was unravelling fast (as it turned out... shocking, I know), and partly because our sovereignty is illusory anyway - the elite would still be in charge regardless, the same powers pull the strings. At least staying in would have prevented the Tories dismantling employment and disability rights.
I'm pretty sure as a country we'll muddle through regardless though. The thing that really does bother me is that by using immigration as the main argument the Brexit campaign was uncomfortably close to playing the race card - and subsequently racist attacks and incidents of targeted hate speech have gone through the roof - the racists feel bold enough to openly challenge minorities as well as EU migrants. The issue is not so much that 52% of voters are racists - most folk who voted out didn't do so because they hate them forrins - its that the racist cunts now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and now they're gonna 'take their country back, so you can all fuck off back where you came from' :hitler:
Agreed! :plus:
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From Pea!
"Why isn't anyone attacking the no-voters yet? I'm surprised they didn't get any blame from either factions. Astonishingly, some have the gall to criticise the result when they didn't even bother to participate."
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^Good point.
My friend somehow got into an argument with someone who no-voted. Said every vote counts, etc. She even started crying. I was like, let's get out of here.
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Pea- Cheers for the upload. You make some good points. I like how you're calling Butterflies "Butters" like from South Park :lol1: Yeah I don't get much time but could meet up one day, I don't live in London though, but not far. The remainiacs don't realise they are supporting the same people who make the policies they allegedly despise.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
Still in pissy mood, I see.
Not planning on actually considering your replies because you filter everything I write based on your callouts and the fact that I'm not replying to you in those anymore.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
Still in pissy mood, I see.
Not planning on actually considering your replies because you filter everything I write based on your callouts and the fact that I'm not replying to you in those anymore.
Nice Projection Odeon.
You can keep saying that I am in a pissy mood from here to eternity, but let's be realistic. At some point you will need to let go of that and realise that basing everything around these kind of narrative filters is not making a point. Yes at some point this month, next month, next year you will likely have to drop the "You are still in a pissy mood" chestnut, and accept, no I am not in a pissy mood and likely was not when you originally called it, nor every other time you called it. I do not need to be in a pissy mood to call you on when you are wrong. Not now, not next week, not next year and nor in the past.
You do not wish to reply or back your positions, you sure as hell do not need to tell me. Do or do not, its always been your choice. The fact that I can draw an easy parallel with what you were doing here and what you did in my callout is telling, but not on my behalf.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
I watched through the clip. Did you? The headlines say "could trigger WWIII" but Cameron didn't.
I got that wrong, he didn't actually say those words, but I'm sure you'll be honest and admit that's the exact point he's trying to make. Sick of him to do such a thing.
Just as you got it wrong with NHS and the £350 million. Get used to being wrong a lot.
And no, he did not imply WW3. If you're honest, you'll admit it. He was rather referring to one of the main reasons to why the EU came to be in the first place, which is still a valid reason.
And today it got even more obvious that the Leave campaigners lack any kind of plan. Boris doesn't even believe in the shit he advocated, and he pretty much admitted it by stepping down. I guess it came as a huge shock to him and his former pal Gove that Cameron had not intention to invoke Article 50 or help negotiate anything. Now, none of them is keen on invoking Article 50 because they know it equals political suicide. Somebody is going to be blamed when it all goes to shit.
Did you know that it's most likely illegal for them to do it anyway? Only legislation can repeal legislation, so the Parliament--and the Queen--will both have to approve the new legislation giving the PM the power to invoke Article 50.
At which point the House of Lords could easily block the legislation for another year.
In the meanwhile, nothing gets negotiated because the EU has clearly said that no negotiations will take place before the UK state their intentions. Even then, the negotiations are likely to be about the exit, not about a new deal. This was pointed out by the EU Trade Commissioner today.
Of course, while all this is happening (that is, very little is happening beyond the pound dropping and your economy going to shit), you are still a member of the EU but one shunned by the other members.
But eventually, if by some miracle the new legislation is passed and a future PM is brave enough for a political suicide, Article 50 is invoked and a minimum of two years is spent negotiating the terms of that exit, eventually there could be negotiations for a new deal. Now, those will take years and years--Canada, anyone?--and if the UK wants the Single Market, a minimum, non-negotiable, condition of that is free movement, but also a number of other conditions that nobody mentioned before the referendum. All of which the UK (or what's left of it) will accept because by then, the business is far more important than Nigel and his cronies, and the backwater Wales farmers who voted for them, because the recession has arrived, jobs are scarce and a lot of institutions, cities and forgotten-about villages, not to mention the NHS, all remember fondly the EU structural contributions that, once upon a time, helped them prosper.
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
I thought you were talking about Farage anyway. Like I said, I didn't pay too much attention to Boris and Gove or any of the debates, I've seen it all before and focused more on radio shows where "experts" from both sides were coming on and just saying the complete opposite from each other. The intention was to confuse people.
"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?
"I would never be so rash to make that assumption."
Sound like he was talking in any kind of past tense there ^ does it? Once again you prove you cannot deal with or admit when you are wrong. Grow up.
Boris would not employ Gove's friends like George Osborne, so Gove turned on Boris as he probably felt he'd betrayed his chums enough. We need to have an immediate General Election. The trouble is, your heroes were so arrogant and thought the public was too stupid and easily fooled to vote to leave the EU, so they made no plans in case of a leave vote. The Leave campaigners were not selected by the public, and to be honest it should have been Daniel Hannan or Nigel Farage at the helm, people who were actually prepared to leave and prepared for leaving and actually believe what they say. It should actually be up to David Cameron to enforce the democratic wishes of the people, but instead, your hero cowardly resigned immediately. I actually agree with the EU on this, we need to leave first then strike a deal. We should strike a deal like Israel has, trade with the EU and just have an immigration system that brings back Brits from abroad and removes non Brits perhaps? We definitely need a General Election soon, choose a government with them knowing they have to take us out and strike a deal and let the public choose.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if we just stayed in the EU, but then they know that could lead to riots or civil war. Peter Hitchens who is against the EU, is also against referendums, for the reasons you stated.
Like I said, we can have a deal like Israel, and people should be asking that question why they get away with it. You pray you are right, but I have faith in the country to fight for justice. It's time we take on the big corporations and make them pay real tax. We can also renationalise our Post Office and Rail Service if we get away from the EU and those sick trade treaties that we done against what is best for the people of the country.
I agree with you on a General Election, actually. A lot of what's happening now is not what the voters did vote on last year, so an election makes sense.
As for the rest of your post, not much of it makes sense. It's very clear to me that you only see what you want to see, and most of it has nothing to do with any recent events, the referendum included. Discussing the recent events with you, then, is a futile exercise.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
I knew the facts I needed to know long before you moved here. I did not vote for Boris or Gove you moron, I voted to leave the European Union. No one knew Cameron was going to resign. You have very good hindsight though :wanker:
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
Still in pissy mood, I see.
Not planning on actually considering your replies because you filter everything I write based on your callouts and the fact that I'm not replying to you in those anymore.
Nice Projection Odeon.
You can keep saying that I am in a pissy mood from here to eternity, but let's be realistic. At some point you will need to let go of that and realise that basing everything around these kind of narrative filters is not making a point. Yes at some point this month, next month, next year you will likely have to drop the "You are still in a pissy mood" chestnut, and accept, no I am not in a pissy mood and likely was not when you originally called it, nor every other time you called it. I do not need to be in a pissy mood to call you on when you are wrong. Not now, not next week, not next year and nor in the past.
You do not wish to reply or back your positions, you sure as hell do not need to tell me. Do or do not, its always been your choice. The fact that I can draw an easy parallel with what you were doing here and what you did in my callout is telling, but not on my behalf.
Keep telling yourself that, Al. You may even believe it. There is a marked difference in how you reacted to my posts before your callouts and after, though, and so the reason should be obvious. Of course, you may not be in a pissy mood but whatever it is, it's about the callouts.
And "pissy mood" is a good, short description.
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As for Brexit and its effects on the UK:
This is, quite obviously, just the beginning and everything is in turmoil. Me, I really hope that I am going to be wrong because I like the country and, these days, very much depend on it. As many other expats, I can't help but notice the short-term effects because they are very real and affect me directly.
I think the warnings about the long-term effects are correct and that they haven't been taken seriously by many of the voters (and non-voters, actually). I think the legal experts who point out that Brexit actually must be a Parliamentary decision are correct, and I'm surprised this was not explored further long before the referendum. Cameron certainly should have.
And I think that this is something that should never have been voted on because it's actually something that is beyond most people (present company included). It is a bit like hiring people on the street as surgeons, it's not a good idea, because not everything is something that can be properly understood by the general population.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
Still in pissy mood, I see.
Not planning on actually considering your replies because you filter everything I write based on your callouts and the fact that I'm not replying to you in those anymore.
Nice Projection Odeon.
You can keep saying that I am in a pissy mood from here to eternity, but let's be realistic. At some point you will need to let go of that and realise that basing everything around these kind of narrative filters is not making a point. Yes at some point this month, next month, next year you will likely have to drop the "You are still in a pissy mood" chestnut, and accept, no I am not in a pissy mood and likely was not when you originally called it, nor every other time you called it. I do not need to be in a pissy mood to call you on when you are wrong. Not now, not next week, not next year and nor in the past.
You do not wish to reply or back your positions, you sure as hell do not need to tell me. Do or do not, its always been your choice. The fact that I can draw an easy parallel with what you were doing here and what you did in my callout is telling, but not on my behalf.
Keep telling yourself that, Al. You may even believe it. There is a marked difference in how you reacted to my posts before your callouts and after, though, and so the reason should be obvious. Of course, you may not be in a pissy mood but whatever it is, it's about the callouts.
And "pissy mood" is a good, short description.
Except it isn't.
Now it may be simply me or it may be that prior to those callouts I have seen little reason to strongly object to anything you said BECAUSE EVEN when I disagreed with you, I had not seen much of what you said that was irrational, stupid, dishonest or weak as piss.
I contend it is the latter. So as "obvious" as you say it is to you, as with much of what you have said lately, I find the statement dubious. I think that you ability to make an informed choice or reach a sensible conclusion in recent times has taken a nosedive. Following your rationale has been you into the tarmac.
You know my overtures of "You are better than this" and such? There was a reason behind that and for me looking for an agenda. The reason is that in the last few months you have been talking shit. I thought it a passing phase, or a bad mood, or something "I" was missing. It is obviously the new status quo. I have adjusted to it and now do not expect much more than rubbish from you.
Call it pissy as much as you like but as I say, next week, next month or next year it will be apparent as to the status quo.
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FWIW I voted to stay in, partly because I figured anything being run by Boris Johnson was likely to become a car crash and the credibility of their Brexit promises was unravelling fast (as it turned out... shocking, I know), and partly because our sovereignty is illusory anyway - the elite would still be in charge regardless, the same powers pull the strings. At least staying in would have prevented the Tories dismantling employment and disability rights.
I'm pretty sure as a country we'll muddle through regardless though. The thing that really does bother me is that by using immigration as the main argument the Brexit campaign was uncomfortably close to playing the race card - and subsequently racist attacks and incidents of targeted hate speech have gone through the roof - the racists feel bold enough to openly challenge minorities as well as EU migrants. The issue is not so much that 52% of voters are racists - most folk who voted out didn't do so because they hate them forrins - its that the racist cunts now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and now they're gonna 'take their country back, so you can all fuck off back where you came from' :hitler:
Unfortunately that is the case. And we might have to play Fascist-Whack-a-mole for a while. But let's find the good in any situation, because if there is one thing every generation of Britain should have to learn it's how to recognise and fight Fascists. It's rule one in th elist of "How to be a Britain". (Rule two being - never trust the French.)
Having been old enough to have spent many an afternoon throwing stones at the National Front in the 1980s I'm prepared to do it again if I have to. (Although I need to be home by 10pm on a week night.)
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FWIW I voted to stay in, partly because I figured anything being run by Boris Johnson was likely to become a car crash and the credibility of their Brexit promises was unravelling fast (as it turned out... shocking, I know), and partly because our sovereignty is illusory anyway - the elite would still be in charge regardless, the same powers pull the strings. At least staying in would have prevented the Tories dismantling employment and disability rights.
I'm pretty sure as a country we'll muddle through regardless though. The thing that really does bother me is that by using immigration as the main argument the Brexit campaign was uncomfortably close to playing the race card - and subsequently racist attacks and incidents of targeted hate speech have gone through the roof - the racists feel bold enough to openly challenge minorities as well as EU migrants. The issue is not so much that 52% of voters are racists - most folk who voted out didn't do so because they hate them forrins - its that the racist cunts now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and now they're gonna 'take their country back, so you can all fuck off back where you came from' :hitler:
Unfortunately that is the case. And we might have to play Fascist-Whack-a-mole for a while. But let's find the good in any situation, because if there is one thing every generation of Britain should have to learn it's how to recognise and fight Fascists. It's rule one in th elist of "How to be a Britain". (Rule two being - never trust the French.)
Having been old enough to have spent many an afternoon throwing stones at the National Front in the 1980s I'm prepared to do it again if I have to. (Although I need to be home by 10pm on a week night.)
This is one of the most positive exchanges in this thread. :thumbup: :viking:
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)
If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.
I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.
Still in pissy mood, I see.
Not planning on actually considering your replies because you filter everything I write based on your callouts and the fact that I'm not replying to you in those anymore.
Nice Projection Odeon.
You can keep saying that I am in a pissy mood from here to eternity, but let's be realistic. At some point you will need to let go of that and realise that basing everything around these kind of narrative filters is not making a point. Yes at some point this month, next month, next year you will likely have to drop the "You are still in a pissy mood" chestnut, and accept, no I am not in a pissy mood and likely was not when you originally called it, nor every other time you called it. I do not need to be in a pissy mood to call you on when you are wrong. Not now, not next week, not next year and nor in the past.
You do not wish to reply or back your positions, you sure as hell do not need to tell me. Do or do not, its always been your choice. The fact that I can draw an easy parallel with what you were doing here and what you did in my callout is telling, but not on my behalf.
Keep telling yourself that, Al. You may even believe it. There is a marked difference in how you reacted to my posts before your callouts and after, though, and so the reason should be obvious. Of course, you may not be in a pissy mood but whatever it is, it's about the callouts.
And "pissy mood" is a good, short description.
Except it isn't.
Now it may be simply me or it may be that prior to those callouts I have seen little reason to strongly object to anything you said BECAUSE EVEN when I disagreed with you, I had not seen much of what you said that was irrational, stupid, dishonest or weak as piss.
I contend it is the latter. So as "obvious" as you say it is to you, as with much of what you have said lately, I find the statement dubious. I think that you ability to make an informed choice or reach a sensible conclusion in recent times has taken a nosedive. Following your rationale has been you into the tarmac.
You know my overtures of "You are better than this" and such? There was a reason behind that and for me looking for an agenda. The reason is that in the last few months you have been talking shit. I thought it a passing phase, or a bad mood, or something "I" was missing. It is obviously the new status quo. I have adjusted to it and now do not expect much more than rubbish from you.
Call it pissy as much as you like but as I say, next week, next month or next year it will be apparent as to the status quo.
It's you.
You've changed, and I believe I'm not the only one to point it out.
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I think not.
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I think not.
/shrugs
It's obvious to anyone who cares to look, but just as obvious that you would disagree.
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I think not.
/shrugs
It's obvious to anyone who cares to look, but just as obvious that you would disagree.
Nope. But regardless, there is a new status quo. A different dynamic. Of that I will agree. We can argue the cause but I doubt it will make the slightest difference to things. Personally I prefer how things were, but that is neither here nor there. I responded to bullshit that you slung at me for a reaction. I was always going to react, and you knew this and played for a reaction. This is the result. I think the process changed you and you think the same of me.
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Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.
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Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.
Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.
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Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.
Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.
We can stop any time you like.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
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Another one from Pea: I sometimes wonder if this is going to happen during the nomination conventions into the national elections........we may move to Canada yet! :GA:
Post this in Brexit topic if you want:
Brexit voter being ganged up in London. How brave of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqHwXWa3tH4
Attempt to Take Her Placard, Woman Argues with Pro-Leave Lady, Jane
London today. UK Referendum Voxpops (#26)
youtube.com
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
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Hello from Pea!
Post this for me:
"This has nothing to do with the site owner, but I think Sweden needs to be independent. I feel bad for the women there who have to deal with these horrible migrants from poorer countries. England and Scotland is a given because of their familial ties with the the vikings. The Swedes need to get their pride back and stop being the EU's dogs.
If anyone wants to message me for a chat outside of intensity, here's my fb account. I'm using a fake one for work related reasons. Not going to add you lot, but up for a natter if you like.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100011475585507/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU
Chat Conversation End
Type a message...
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It's all about free speech...american style! Don't like it......BAN MY ASS and FUCK YOU! 8)
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
That's an excellent argument. Though personally found the public vote to be an impressive political move. It's true, decisions like that are generally made by legislators, but this is particularly huge and any action would have reflected poorly on legislation if they couldn't show they had the approval of the public.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
Summarised if I may:
I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.
Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong
Therefore his opinion is dangerous and uninformed and ill-thought out and he must not be able to represent any of his views by way of voting.
Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us. Welcome to Big Brother
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While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?
It makes sense for specialized experts to make decisions within their field when it's a question of specific knowledge, like what treatment will cure a certain disease. But whether a country should stay part of the EU has far-reaching consequences over a broad range of disciplines. Questions of economics, foreign relations, global trade, immigration, domestic policy, etc. Each one is a field specialized enough to have its own formal program of study. Political leaders can't possibly be an expert on everything. They may have advisors, but their time is carefully regimented and information is filtered by staff who have jobs on the line and pressure to tell them what they want to hear.
Nobody may be forcing the populace to do their own research, but look at the debates that have been flourishing between people of all intelligence and education levels. People want to be informed and they want to have a hand in their own destiny. It's passing the buck to blame them for the sensationalized crap in the media. Somewhere somebody is making an executive decision about what to air.
On the second point, political leaders are no less subject to bias than an average citizen. They're taking into account what will further their careers, what will get them more votes, how they are being funded by special interest groups. The vote is a simple yes/no, but that means the largest political parties take black and white sides. Taking the vote away from the population takes away an individual's power to have a nuanced position, for example to have voted one party into office based on a campaign issue unrelated to the Brexit question, and then later to disagree with the stance that party has taken on Brexit.
Besides, the point has been brought up that the popular vote is not legally binding. Nothing happens until the government submits the official withdrawal notice to the EU. Why would you give up even an unofficial vote?
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Summarised if I may:
I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.
Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong
Therefore his opinion is dangerous and uninformed and ill-thought out and he must not be able to represent any of his views by way of voting.
Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us. Welcome to Big Brother
I think you need to work on removing the bias from your summaries. :laugh:
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Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.
Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.
We can stop any time you like.
You called me intellectually dishonest, made no reasonable argument on it and continued to double down on something untrue and now accuse me of being a bigot and a liar.
But it is up to and on me.
Nope you don't pull me into the sewer with you and then say "Up to you whether you want to acknowledge you are dirty or not". That too is unreasonable.
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While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?
It makes sense for specialized experts to make decisions within their field when it's a question of specific knowledge, like what treatment will cure a certain disease. But whether a country should stay part of the EU has far-reaching consequences over a broad range of disciplines. Questions of economics, foreign relations, global trade, immigration, domestic policy, etc. Each one is a field specialized enough to have its own formal program of study. Political leaders can't possibly be an expert on everything. They may have advisors, but their time is carefully regimented and information is filtered by staff who have jobs on the line and pressure to tell them what they want to hear.
Nobody may be forcing the populace to do their own research, but look at the debates that have been flourishing between people of all intelligence and education levels. People want to be informed and they want to have a hand in their own destiny. It's passing the buck to blame them for the sensationalized crap in the media. Somewhere somebody is making an executive decision about what to air.
On the second point, political leaders are no less subject to bias than an average citizen. They're taking into account what will further their careers, what will get them more votes, how they are being funded by special interest groups. The vote is a simple yes/no, but that means the largest political parties take black and white sides. Taking the vote away from the population takes away an individual's power to have a nuanced position, for example to have voted one party into office based on a campaign issue unrelated to the Brexit question, and then later to disagree with the stance that party has taken on Brexit.
Besides, the point has been brought up that the popular vote is not legally binding. Nothing happens until the government submits the official withdrawal notice to the EU. Why would you give up even an unofficial vote?
Well said Pyraxis. It was a shit idea, Odeon. Not saying your next idea will be shit. It may well be inspired, recent track record notwithstanding.
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While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?
Not much, actually, and this is the main problem with democracy. Generally, the politicians we have--just as those in the UK--are less than well-informed and ill suited to decide on most things.
Here, while you vote for a person (there are names on the ballots, and we choose people on three levels, from the local to the national), generally speaking you vote for a party whose ideas are as good a match as possible for what you believe in, and then hope for the best.
Their saving grace, frequently, is that they can actually appoint experts to study the issues at hand before doing anything and so, unlike a referendum such as Brexit where the decision is made over night by people who never have to be accountable, the hope is that slightly wiser and less rash decisions can be arrived at. It all happens over a longer period of time and the decision-makers remain accountable for their actions. Do a few sufficiently bad decisions and you on't have an office after the next election.
A referendum that messes up a country much like Brexit has--the short-term effects are in plain view and the longer term ones are becoming clearer as we speak--has no such advantages and so the very same people who made the last bad decision can be asked to make a new one.
No accountability.
It makes sense for specialized experts to make decisions within their field when it's a question of specific knowledge, like what treatment will cure a certain disease. But whether a country should stay part of the EU has far-reaching consequences over a broad range of disciplines. Questions of economics, foreign relations, global trade, immigration, domestic policy, etc. Each one is a field specialized enough to have its own formal program of study. Political leaders can't possibly be an expert on everything. They may have advisors, but their time is carefully regimented and information is filtered by staff who have jobs on the line and pressure to tell them what they want to hear.
Nobody may be forcing the populace to do their own research, but look at the debates that have been flourishing between people of all intelligence and education levels. People want to be informed and they want to have a hand in their own destiny. It's passing the buck to blame them for the sensationalized crap in the media. Somewhere somebody is making an executive decision about what to air.
"People want to be informed"?
I have to disagree. Some, sure, absolutely, but all too many, no. It's an issue that is an emotional one because it has been made to be about independence and the EU having superstate ambitions, and rather than taking a few steps back, people talk about the EU having some ridiculous regulations in place over the size of bananas (which *is* silly and pointless and stupid, but of little consequence if you look at the larger scheme of things) and let that be the deciding factor.
It's the same with immigration and so many other issues. People let their emotions do the work.
On the second point, political leaders are no less subject to bias than an average citizen. They're taking into account what will further their careers, what will get them more votes, how they are being funded by special interest groups. The vote is a simple yes/no, but that means the largest political parties take black and white sides. Taking the vote away from the population takes away an individual's power to have a nuanced position, for example to have voted one party into office based on a campaign issue unrelated to the Brexit question, and then later to disagree with the stance that party has taken on Brexit.
Agreed about the politicians--they are as biased as you and me. Which, again, strongly speaks for not having referendums that are allowed to be decisive. The decision is reduced to a yes/no matter over night, without any nuances left, and the politicians, already as biased as we are, are forced into being black and white rather than at least being allowed to use panels of experts, debating the issue in the all-important legislative bodies, and so on.
Now, the default is not to have a *legislative*, governing, debate on what is perhaps the most important decision in decades in the UK, and so what is left is to pick a leader whose is supposedly only to implement that rash decision while minimising damage.
Besides, the point has been brought up that the popular vote is not legally binding. Nothing happens until the government submits the official withdrawal notice to the EU. Why would you give up even an unofficial vote?
It's not legally binding but it could equal political suicide for those MPs who do not accept it, bringing out the worst in a democracy, namely the immediate fear for losing your job.
There is the fact that in the UK, legislation can only be repealed by other legislation, so it could well be that the PM cannot legally invoke Article 50 without a Parliamentary decision on that 1972 Act that governs the current state of things.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
Summarised if I may:
I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.
Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong
Therefore his opinion is dangerous and uninformed and ill-thought out and he must not be able to represent any of his views by way of voting.
Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us. Welcome to Big Brother
Seriously, Al? Why lie?
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Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.
Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.
We can stop any time you like.
You called me intellectually dishonest, made no reasonable argument on it and continued to double down on something untrue and now accuse me of being a bigot and a liar.
But it is up to and on me.
Nope you don't pull me into the sewer with you and then say "Up to you whether you want to acknowledge you are dirty or not". That too is unreasonable.
And so you've started lying and misrepresenting my posts. Well done, "mate". If you want an all-out flame war, you're off to a good start.
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While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?
It makes sense for specialized experts to make decisions within their field when it's a question of specific knowledge, like what treatment will cure a certain disease. But whether a country should stay part of the EU has far-reaching consequences over a broad range of disciplines. Questions of economics, foreign relations, global trade, immigration, domestic policy, etc. Each one is a field specialized enough to have its own formal program of study. Political leaders can't possibly be an expert on everything. They may have advisors, but their time is carefully regimented and information is filtered by staff who have jobs on the line and pressure to tell them what they want to hear.
Nobody may be forcing the populace to do their own research, but look at the debates that have been flourishing between people of all intelligence and education levels. People want to be informed and they want to have a hand in their own destiny. It's passing the buck to blame them for the sensationalized crap in the media. Somewhere somebody is making an executive decision about what to air.
On the second point, political leaders are no less subject to bias than an average citizen. They're taking into account what will further their careers, what will get them more votes, how they are being funded by special interest groups. The vote is a simple yes/no, but that means the largest political parties take black and white sides. Taking the vote away from the population takes away an individual's power to have a nuanced position, for example to have voted one party into office based on a campaign issue unrelated to the Brexit question, and then later to disagree with the stance that party has taken on Brexit.
Besides, the point has been brought up that the popular vote is not legally binding. Nothing happens until the government submits the official withdrawal notice to the EU. Why would you give up even an unofficial vote?
Well said Pyraxis. It was a shit idea, Odeon. Not saying your next idea will be shit. It may well be inspired, recent track record notwithstanding.
Your contributions so far are stellar, of course, but still, why not produce an actual argument instead of extending your pissy mood all over the board?
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While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?
It makes sense for specialized experts to make decisions within their field when it's a question of specific knowledge, like what treatment will cure a certain disease. But whether a country should stay part of the EU has far-reaching consequences over a broad range of disciplines. Questions of economics, foreign relations, global trade, immigration, domestic policy, etc. Each one is a field specialized enough to have its own formal program of study. Political leaders can't possibly be an expert on everything. They may have advisors, but their time is carefully regimented and information is filtered by staff who have jobs on the line and pressure to tell them what they want to hear.
Nobody may be forcing the populace to do their own research, but look at the debates that have been flourishing between people of all intelligence and education levels. People want to be informed and they want to have a hand in their own destiny. It's passing the buck to blame them for the sensationalized crap in the media. Somewhere somebody is making an executive decision about what to air.
On the second point, political leaders are no less subject to bias than an average citizen. They're taking into account what will further their careers, what will get them more votes, how they are being funded by special interest groups. The vote is a simple yes/no, but that means the largest political parties take black and white sides. Taking the vote away from the population takes away an individual's power to have a nuanced position, for example to have voted one party into office based on a campaign issue unrelated to the Brexit question, and then later to disagree with the stance that party has taken on Brexit.
Besides, the point has been brought up that the popular vote is not legally binding. Nothing happens until the government submits the official withdrawal notice to the EU. Why would you give up even an unofficial vote?
Well said Pyraxis. It was a shit idea, Odeon. Not saying your next idea will be shit. It may well be inspired, recent track record notwithstanding.
Your contributions so far are stellar, of course, but still, why not produce an actual argument instead of extending your pissy mood all over the board?
Well the counter is to the idea that the citizens have no idea about such thing as what may be in their own best interests is that perhaps collectively they do.
Perhaps the counter to the idea that issues are polarised and black or white is the idea that there may be numerous reasons for someone agreeing to an idea or not.
Perhaps the idea that politicians and their advisors are moral arbiters and altruistic creatures with a vested interest for the citizens of the country they represent, is a thought that perhaps for various reasons politicians may not always make the best decisions or have the citizens's interests at heart.
Maybe instead of saying that everything for a nation pulling out of the EU is doom and gloom from this day on, is a counter that until relatively recent times they needed no EU and going independent is not historically unknown. They were independent for many years.
Maybe people have not been tricked or swayed as you make out but have simply not chosen what you wanted them to choose.
Maybe they are not all scared into it or all racially motivated, or too stupid to get it, maybe they simply made a choice for reasons that were just as good as your want for them to stay in.
As for Benji being too stupid, yeah I get it, he's stupid, I am pissy and you are the intellectual and moral superior.....but maybe not.
Maybe democracy is simply being able to accept that as part of a society we need to accept that to function in a Democratic society we have to accept majority opinions count. Even when we do not agree with them.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
Summarised if I may:
I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.
Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong
Therefore his opinion is dangerous and uninformed and ill-thought out and he must not be able to represent any of his views by way of voting.
Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us. Welcome to Big Brother
Seriously, Al? Why lie?
Summarised if I may:
I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.
So there is a lie here? So tell us all that you actually like Benji and have the same opinions. No? Not a lie? I CAN back this up. No, we good?
Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong
You believe he is right, right, right? No? I can show where you think he is an idiot for his opinions, So good here too? Okay.
Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
No lie here either.
Welcome to Big Brother
Was this the big one? "The lie?"
I said welcome to Big Brother as an allusion to the Orwellian future nightmare of the totalitarian governing Big Brother government of 1984. So this is analogous in my mind to treading down that rather bleak path...except for the fact of course that making off-hand sarcastic analogies is not lying.
Seriously, Al? Why lie?
Here is a much more interesting question. As i did not lie, and you by suggesting I did were not telling the truth, does that make YOU a liar or a hypocrite? I will accept either.
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Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.
Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.
We can stop any time you like.
You called me intellectually dishonest, made no reasonable argument on it and continued to double down on something untrue and now accuse me of being a bigot and a liar.
But it is up to and on me.
Nope you don't pull me into the sewer with you and then say "Up to you whether you want to acknowledge you are dirty or not". That too is unreasonable.
And so you've started lying and misrepresenting my posts. Well done, "mate". If you want an all-out flame war, you're off to a good start.
I have yet to see the posts that I have been lying and misrepresenting you though at least a couple of posts that you lied about me in, are contained in my signature. Is this a "I know what you are but what am I?" tactic? if so I think I have little to fear from this threat of a flame war.
I fear a flame war nor more than I fear a callout. If you want to do this, fire away, I don't give a shit.
As for whether this is an accurate description of things:
You called me intellectually dishonest, made no reasonable argument on it and continued to double down on something untrue and now accuse me of being a bigot and a liar.
But it is up to and on me.
Nope you don't pull me into the sewer with you and then say "Up to you whether you want to acknowledge you are dirty or not". That too is unreasonable.
It appears that way to me and I am more than happy to argue the point.
You did not call me intellectually dishonest? You did not double down? You did not call me a bigot? You did not call me a liar? You did not say "We can stop it any time YOU like"? I can point to all of this.
Again, and I have mentioned it before, you fished for a reaction from me and now you have it. Enjoy it. Personally I would have thought it a silly thing to do.
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And more from Pea! 8) Enjoy the debate! 8)
"This is what happens when you let the politicans dictate the country, folks.
http://www.infowars.com/leftist-politician-its-worse-when-swedish-men-rape-women-than-when-immigrants-do/
I feel really bad for Sweden being the EU cucks. Glad Benji, FourAceDeal and I voted for #Brexit.
Post that when you can, please.
Leftist Politician: It's "Worse" When Swedish Men Rape Women Than When Immigrants Do » Alex...
Because migrants come from a different culture.
infowars.com
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But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?
Not much, actually, and this is the main problem with democracy. Generally, the politicians we have--just as those in the UK--are less than well-informed and ill suited to decide on most things.
Here, while you vote for a person (there are names on the ballots, and we choose people on three levels, from the local to the national), generally speaking you vote for a party whose ideas are as good a match as possible for what you believe in, and then hope for the best.
Their saving grace, frequently, is that they can actually appoint experts to study the issues at hand before doing anything and so, unlike a referendum such as Brexit where the decision is made over night by people who never have to be accountable, the hope is that slightly wiser and less rash decisions can be arrived at. It all happens over a longer period of time and the decision-makers remain accountable for their actions. Do a few sufficiently bad decisions and you on't have an office after the next election.
A referendum that messes up a country much like Brexit has--the short-term effects are in plain view and the longer term ones are becoming clearer as we speak--has no such advantages and so the very same people who made the last bad decision can be asked to make a new one.
No accountability.
What would you see as suitable accountability? It seems to me that everyone's having to live with the consequences of the vote, and they'll continue to do so. UK citizens working in Europe and Europeans working in the UK are going to have their lives overturned. Anyone with investments in the pound or in UK business are getting repercussions.
"People want to be informed"?
I have to disagree. Some, sure, absolutely, but all too many, no. It's an issue that is an emotional one because it has been made to be about independence and the EU having superstate ambitions, and rather than taking a few steps back, people talk about the EU having some ridiculous regulations in place over the size of bananas (which *is* silly and pointless and stupid, but of little consequence if you look at the larger scheme of things) and let that be the deciding factor.
It's the same with immigration and so many other issues. People let their emotions do the work.
I think you're right that panels of experts are needed, and more time to realistically consider the repercussions. The campaign was handled abysmally. Rushed, swamped with sensationalism, appealing to the worst of human nature. Which seems to be par for the course for elections all over the world. I don't think the answer to that is to take the vote away from people though. I think the answer is education and enforced wait times.
The system seems to be self-correcting to a degree, though. Since Cameron stepped down, everyone has to wait while the party in charge comes up with somebody else to chaperone the exit. Or to stonewall until the next national election. And it seems like they're going to take their sweet time, like you said about Parliament maybe needing to debate the 1972 Act, even with the EU pressuring them to make the official call.
Agreed about the politicians--they are as biased as you and me. Which, again, strongly speaks for not having referendums that are allowed to be decisive. The decision is reduced to a yes/no matter over night, without any nuances left, and the politicians, already as biased as we are, are forced into being black and white rather than at least being allowed to use panels of experts, debating the issue in the all-important legislative bodies, and so on.
While I don't like questions being reduced to black and white, and especially don't like the enforced two-party system in the USA, I'm not sure how staying vs leaving the EU could be voted on in a way other than black and white - whether it was elected representatives making the vote, or citizens. Even if it was made more complex, ie one party advocating leaving now, one party advocating negotiations with the hard threat of leaving if certain demands weren't met, and one party advocating staying, it would be hard for the middle party to actually enact their line in the sand and make good on their promise. Maybe it would have been better to have the economic/policy/etc studies and governmental debate before taking the vote to the people.
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Well the counter is to the idea that the citizens have no idea about such thing as what may be in their own best interests is that perhaps collectively they do.
Perhaps the counter to the idea that issues are polarised and black or white is the idea that there may be numerous reasons for someone agreeing to an idea or not.
Perhaps the idea that politicians and their advisors are moral arbiters and altruistic creatures with a vested interest for the citizens of the country they represent, is a thought that perhaps for various reasons politicians may not always make the best decisions or have the citizens's interests at heart.
Maybe instead of saying that everything for a nation pulling out of the EU is doom and gloom from this day on, is a counter that until relatively recent times they needed no EU and going independent is not historically unknown. They were independent for many years.
Maybe people have not been tricked or swayed as you make out but have simply not chosen what you wanted them to choose.
Maybe they are not all scared into it or all racially motivated, or too stupid to get it, maybe they simply made a choice for reasons that were just as good as your want for them to stay in.
As for Benji being too stupid, yeah I get it, he's stupid, I am pissy and you are the intellectual and moral superior.....but maybe not.
Maybe democracy is simply being able to accept that as part of a society we need to accept that to function in a Democratic society we have to accept majority opinions count. Even when we do not agree with them.
You and Benji both, talking about acceptance. This is a part of your argument that I don't understand. As in the vote is done, people should stop thinking and analyzing? It's really up to each individual when they've come up with a satisfactory understanding of what happened, you can't stop the process just because you're sick of hearing about it. It seems natural that the side which lost the vote is looking at how things could be done differently next time, and what were the flaws in the process. After all, if leaving the EU was the wisest decision, it shouldn't matter if there's more debate. With time, the minority position will be proven wrong, and the people debating have no influence on that rushing tide.
Edit: It's like the people who underestimate Trump. First they thought he wouldn't win the primary. Now they're thinking he won't win the election. There's going to be a hell of a lot of gnashing of teeth if he does. That's pretty much a fact of human nature.
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My thoughts on this is they pushed for a vote and will of the people and got it.
Now of course more could have been done to influence an amount of voters to different position by the vote was asked for and now the result is in. Time to get on with things.
Secondly, pretending now that people collectively are too stupid, too uneducated and misled, sit badly with me. The effort to continually infantise adults. Censor the internet for them, take away difficult choices and treat them all like mindless sheep. Sorry, I don't agree. The people who generally do are either government /corporate representatives who would benefit from treating constituents/customers are sheep or individuals on a intellectual or moral highhorse trying to highlight that they are special and better than most people
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My thoughts on this is they pushed for a vote and will of the people and got it.
Now of course more could have been done to influence an amount of voters to different position by the vote was asked for and now the result is in. Time to get on with things.
But you haven't actually offered a reason to get on with things. If you want to, no one's stopping you. But why try to make others do the same?
Actually, I should ask for clarification on that. Are you saying the government should get on with things and submit the official exit request? Or that average people should get on with things and quit discussing it?
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My thoughts on this is they pushed for a vote and will of the people and got it.
Now of course more could have been done to influence an amount of voters to different position by the vote was asked for and now the result is in. Time to get on with things.
But you haven't actually offered a reason to get on with things. If you want to, no one's stopping you. But why try to make others do the same?
Actually, I should ask for clarification on that. Are you saying the government should get on with things and submit the official exit request? Or that average people should get on with things and quit discussing it?
Government should get on with things and appreciate that the people they represent have spoken.
They and others trying to denounce the majority as wrong, deluded, stupid, immoral or whatever ought to realise that no, simply a different option to what they personally wished for was voted.
They can gnashing their teeth and postulate what could have been all they like. After they are done they need to get on with things.
As to getting on with things, it is not like there was never a time that they weren't a part of the EU. It's not that the world stops.
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It is and it isn't.
The plan was to win. They have. Now they may or may not bumble around a bit, before finding their feet, but then they will eventually. They will be a nation of their own with independent decision making as they were before EU, and like many countries are. EU was never the only option or only reality.
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Do not know this rockhound guy, but I would bet that he, along with most every one else, knows how to do that AND make the image "clicky" as well if desired. Nice tutorial, though for those who are just getting started.
:thumbup:
Seems as if I missed a lot of posts taking the week end off for my own enjoyment(s) and toil.
Rock hound used to be called Ozymandias, DD.
I am hyke, btw. Silly mood made me chance my name is something meaning "an/the other way around". Hence my upside down avatar too.
Oh, then, I do know this guy. I was wrong
I do not think that he and I are "friends." As far as my part goes, I think he is mostly OK, but I know that he does not regard me as human. We have been at odds for ages. Not sure that we can resolve things. Not to worry. Neither he nor I give a half shit about the other. We will both be fine.
I will think of him as abject "noise" upon his return and I will try not to ruffle his VERY delicate feathers any more than I already have done in the past.
In fact, I plan to ignore him altogether, now that you have revealed his true identity. We just do not communicate well.
I will bet he still has short hair. Just a guess.
Anyway, thank you for giving me a headsup!
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Do not know this rockhound guy, but I would bet that he, along with most every one else, knows how to do that AND make the image "clicky" as well if desired. Nice tutorial, though for those who are just getting started.
:thumbup:
Seems as if I missed a lot of posts taking the week end off for my own enjoyment(s) and toil.
I am hyke, btw. Silly mood made me chance my name is something meaning "an/the other way around". Hence my upside down avatar too.
Hi. Hyke!
Thank you for the info.
I think I like it. Just do what you do and we will be fine.
I can do upside down chocolate moo things!
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Do not know this rockhound guy, but I would bet that he, along with most every one else, knows how to do that AND make the image "clicky" as well if desired. Nice tutorial, though for those who are just getting started.
:thumbup:
Seems as if I missed a lot of posts taking the week end off for my own enjoyment(s) and toil.
I am hyke, btw. Silly mood made me chance my name is something meaning "an/the other way around". Hence my upside down avatar too.
Hi. Hyke!
Thank you for the info.
I think I like it. Just do what you do and we will be fine.
I can do upside down chocolate moo things!
I think I will have to put that in my sig. :laugh:
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It is and it isn't.
The plan was to win. They have. Now they may or may not bumble around a bit, before finding their feet, but then they will eventually. They will be a nation of their own with independent decision making as they were before EU, and like many countries are. EU was never the only option or only reality.
Of course not, but it was by far the best, and not because the EU is so great but because the alternative sucks.
Found this (https://www.buzzfeed.com/lukebailey/the-crisis-explained-maybe?utm_term=.kbaOm8b0l#.glNA1Zv9W). Hugely entertaining and reasonably true.
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I wonder what effect the news about the current developments in the UK will have on the coming Austrian elections.
* stays tuned *
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At the very least, the current situation should provide a very real warning to not take this sort of thing lightly.
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It is and it isn't.
The plan was to win. They have. Now they may or may not bumble around a bit, before finding their feet, but then they will eventually. They will be a nation of their own with independent decision making as they were before EU, and like many countries are. EU was never the only option or only reality.
Of course not, but it was by far the best, and not because the EU is so great but because the alternative sucks.
Found this (https://www.buzzfeed.com/lukebailey/the-crisis-explained-maybe?utm_term=.kbaOm8b0l#.glNA1Zv9W). Hugely entertaining and reasonably true.
Buzzfeed? :laugh: Okay.
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It was funny.
I didn't realize neither side actually had an exit plan.
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It was funny.
I didn't realize neither side actually had an exit plan.
I think others will leave and they will start doing deals among themselves....then perhaps decide to join a international union...
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It was funny.
I didn't realize neither side actually had an exit plan.
Scary, isn't it?
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It was funny.
I didn't realize neither side actually had an exit plan.
Scary, isn't it?
Yes. Other possible exeteers and their opponents will be just as prepared, if they leave soon.
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:LMAO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_6sU7O43w
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From Pea....my last message for awhile!
"Scraaaaaaap!
Semper Fi, you cunt.
Now this is a badass who actually killed people during his time as a soldier.
Did the UK do the right thing? What do you think about Scotland and the UK oligarchy trying to block our vote?"
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From Pea....my last message for awhile!
"Scraaaaaaap!
Semper Fi, you cunt.
Now this is a badass who actually killed people during his time as a soldier.
Did the UK do the right thing? What do you think about Scotland and the UK oligarchy trying to block our vote?"
I don't know who is more pathetic. The loser who managed to get himself banned from the most permissive internet forum around, or the guy who carries his water so he can keep interacting. One is clearly very sad about being booted, and the other seems to be lacking friends despite the fact that he is allowed in the group.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWPJE4xaJM
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
Yeah, my colleagues in London spent most of the time cursing when I talked to them this morning. It's a disaster.
I don't think most of the people who voted know how bad this is.
That's because London is in a bubble and has no idea what happens in the real world. The backbone of the country has spoken! Democracy has one, the corporate machine has taken a smashing but will punish the working class for making the wrong choice.
Actually I think it's rather the other way around. The real world is not just some shithole in Wales these days, like it or not. Isolationism doesn't work.
See look at you, you arrogant cunt. Your retarded heroes like Damon Albarn and his flock are isolationists, and they do not tolerate and accept democratic results that go against them. You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's the right one. London is a mess, it is being socially cleansed and the victims of that have bitten back.
As I mentioned above, it seems pretty easy to see millions voted a specific way, to say they all are bigots and/or stupid seems ironically either bigoted and/or stupid.
There were pros and cons. People chose what they were prepared to accept and voted accordingly. That more people placed importance on leaving than Odeon and Butterflies did is neither here nor there. It was their choice to make and they made it.
This whole Wales shithole comment sounds a little bit pissy.
The sad truth is that this is an issue that should never had been voted on because it's beyond the morons in the shitholes in Wales. Fear-mongering won, not facts, best witnessed by the Leave campaign's leaders nowhere close to offering a single practical way to solve the mess they were instrumental in creating. Seriously. When did they provide a single workable plan? They've already backed on most of the promises the made, and for good reason. Invoking Article 50 will be the undoing of the union, and the union's economy.
So yes, of course it's a pissy comment, but it's a comparatively mild reaction. There are far worse.
God, you really are a complete imbecile and Joseph Stalin's wet dream. 'Please save us the ones that have destroyed the country, we're too stupid to make decisions for ourselves' :'( Try reading some George Orwell novels.
Oh yeah, because your hero Cameron and co didn't try to use fear, claiming there would be WWIII if we left or we would be voting in ISIS's interests, and the way the media used Jo Cox's death.
Idiot. Cameron was never my hero but he, unlike Boris et al, does have a point. WWIII is news to me, though. Care to elaborate?
But here's the thing: I know I'm right and will be here in a year or two when you will recall the good old days when you had money. And I will remind you.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
You don't know anything. Like I've said before, you are more interested in being right than the truth. You are so insecure it's embarrassing.
I watched through the clip. Did you? The headlines say "could trigger WWIII" but Cameron didn't.
I got that wrong, he didn't actually say those words, but I'm sure you'll be honest and admit that's the exact point he's trying to make. Sick of him to do such a thing.
Just as you got it wrong with NHS and the £350 million. Get used to being wrong a lot.
And no, he did not imply WW3. If you're honest, you'll admit it. He was rather referring to one of the main reasons to why the EU came to be in the first place, which is still a valid reason.
And today it got even more obvious that the Leave campaigners lack any kind of plan. Boris doesn't even believe in the shit he advocated, and he pretty much admitted it by stepping down. I guess it came as a huge shock to him and his former pal Gove that Cameron had not intention to invoke Article 50 or help negotiate anything. Now, none of them is keen on invoking Article 50 because they know it equals political suicide. Somebody is going to be blamed when it all goes to shit.
Did you know that it's most likely illegal for them to do it anyway? Only legislation can repeal legislation, so the Parliament--and the Queen--will both have to approve the new legislation giving the PM the power to invoke Article 50.
At which point the House of Lords could easily block the legislation for another year.
In the meanwhile, nothing gets negotiated because the EU has clearly said that no negotiations will take place before the UK state their intentions. Even then, the negotiations are likely to be about the exit, not about a new deal. This was pointed out by the EU Trade Commissioner today.
Of course, while all this is happening (that is, very little is happening beyond the pound dropping and your economy going to shit), you are still a member of the EU but one shunned by the other members.
But eventually, if by some miracle the new legislation is passed and a future PM is brave enough for a political suicide, Article 50 is invoked and a minimum of two years is spent negotiating the terms of that exit, eventually there could be negotiations for a new deal. Now, those will take years and years--Canada, anyone?--and if the UK wants the Single Market, a minimum, non-negotiable, condition of that is free movement, but also a number of other conditions that nobody mentioned before the referendum. All of which the UK (or what's left of it) will accept because by then, the business is far more important than Nigel and his cronies, and the backwater Wales farmers who voted for them, because the recession has arrived, jobs are scarce and a lot of institutions, cities and forgotten-about villages, not to mention the NHS, all remember fondly the EU structural contributions that, once upon a time, helped them prosper.
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
I thought you were talking about Farage anyway. Like I said, I didn't pay too much attention to Boris and Gove or any of the debates, I've seen it all before and focused more on radio shows where "experts" from both sides were coming on and just saying the complete opposite from each other. The intention was to confuse people.
"Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?
"I would never be so rash to make that assumption."
Sound like he was talking in any kind of past tense there ^ does it? Once again you prove you cannot deal with or admit when you are wrong. Grow up.
Boris would not employ Gove's friends like George Osborne, so Gove turned on Boris as he probably felt he'd betrayed his chums enough. We need to have an immediate General Election. The trouble is, your heroes were so arrogant and thought the public was too stupid and easily fooled to vote to leave the EU, so they made no plans in case of a leave vote. The Leave campaigners were not selected by the public, and to be honest it should have been Daniel Hannan or Nigel Farage at the helm, people who were actually prepared to leave and prepared for leaving and actually believe what they say. It should actually be up to David Cameron to enforce the democratic wishes of the people, but instead, your hero cowardly resigned immediately. I actually agree with the EU on this, we need to leave first then strike a deal. We should strike a deal like Israel has, trade with the EU and just have an immigration system that brings back Brits from abroad and removes non Brits perhaps? We definitely need a General Election soon, choose a government with them knowing they have to take us out and strike a deal and let the public choose.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if we just stayed in the EU, but then they know that could lead to riots or civil war. Peter Hitchens who is against the EU, is also against referendums, for the reasons you stated.
Like I said, we can have a deal like Israel, and people should be asking that question why they get away with it. You pray you are right, but I have faith in the country to fight for justice. It's time we take on the big corporations and make them pay real tax. We can also renationalise our Post Office and Rail Service if we get away from the EU and those sick trade treaties that we done against what is best for the people of the country.
I agree with you on a General Election, actually. A lot of what's happening now is not what the voters did vote on last year, so an election makes sense.
As for the rest of your post, not much of it makes sense. It's very clear to me that you only see what you want to see, and most of it has nothing to do with any recent events, the referendum included. Discussing the recent events with you, then, is a futile exercise.
The Tories need to get a leader first.
You mean it was news to you and the media haven't mentioned it? I would have been called a "conspiracy theorist" when I said the desperation to get rid of Corbyn was because of the Chilcot Report and now that has been proven correct, among other reasons. If the corporate media doesn't tell you, then you don't know about it or you don't accept it. No wonder you crow what the corporate machine wants.
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You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?
Do you not read what I write? I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing. I have already told you why I voted out. Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt. I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.
So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.
I knew the facts I needed to know long before you moved here. I did not vote for Boris or Gove you moron, I voted to leave the European Union. No one knew Cameron was going to resign. You have very good hindsight though :wanker:
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Still wrong, even though you try to squirm out. I based my decision on people like Enoch Powell, Tony Benn and Michael Foot, as well as the older generation that were tricked into the EU in the first place. I wonder if you'd be saying we shouldn't be allowed to vote if we'd voted to stay in....
You're that backward, arrogant and brainwashed that you cannot even respect other people's views and reasons for wanting to leave the EU. You're that much of a little bitch that you pray that those with the most power should rule us and tell us what's best for us because we're all too stupid to understand or make a choice. Why don't you just fuck off back to Sweden?
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As for Brexit and its effects on the UK:
This is, quite obviously, just the beginning and everything is in turmoil. Me, I really hope that I am going to be wrong because I like the country and, these days, very much depend on it. As many other expats, I can't help but notice the short-term effects because they are very real and affect me directly.
I think the warnings about the long-term effects are correct and that they haven't been taken seriously by many of the voters (and non-voters, actually). I think the legal experts who point out that Brexit actually must be a Parliamentary decision are correct, and I'm surprised this was not explored further long before the referendum. Cameron certainly should have.
And I think that this is something that should never have been voted on because it's actually something that is beyond most people (present company included). It is a bit like hiring people on the street as surgeons, it's not a good idea, because not everything is something that can be properly understood by the general population.
You want to live in a dictatorship, then please do this country a favor and fuck off. We vote in elections and choose the government. We made a decision and it is down to the government to implement that decision. But your heroes were too arrogant and moronic to have a plan for something they thought wasn't possible. So in fact, it is actually your beloved 'experts' that have proved to be utterly incompetent, a bit like they were when it comes to decision making regarding things like you know, wars. And in the case of Iraq, your beloved 'experts' were proved to be utterly incompetent, where as the British people and the "conspiracy theorists" have been proved right :viking:
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
Summarised if I may:
I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.
Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong
Therefore his opinion is dangerous and uninformed and ill-thought out and he must not be able to represent any of his views by way of voting.
Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us. Welcome to Big Brother
He ought to read some Orwell, definitely.
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.
It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.
We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.
A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.
It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators) will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
Deciding to flood the country with people from subcultures. But as Mrs Spectre said, "Europe must learn to become multicultural" otherwise "it will not survive".
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
Deciding to flood the country with people from subcultures. But as Mrs Spectre said, "Europe must learn to become multicultural" otherwise "it will not survive".
I think that Britain IS multicultural.
How many in Britain is 100% genetically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Britons . I am thinking it is approximately 0%, give or take. Even among the "white" British, many have Saxon blood, Frankish blood, Scandinavian blood, Celtic blood, Pictish blood, Roman blood.
The type of person to make that kind of a statement is pandering to a moot point.
Britain and no doubt Europe IS multicultural. Has been for a long long time. In order for her statement to make sense, you need to assume that there is a question as to whether or not Europe isn't in the first place. Next you need to consider the method as to make it multicultural and in which way not being so would be a good or a bad thing.
If for example Japan said "You know what, fuck Australians. We don't like them and they are not welcome here." I think that is absolutely their right and I would not fight them on my right to visit a place that does not want me. However IF they said we have had some big issues with Australians being arseholes here, we need to place a hold on Aussies visiting here until we explore the reasons why they specifically have been arseholes and how we could manage them better and stop them being arseholes, I would think that fair enough.
Now I use this example specifically for two reasons. If I had of said a country in the middle east, Odeon would go full on conspiracy nut BUT also because teh Japanese HAVE in some places banned the sale of Bundaberg Rum. Why? Because Aussies would go over there get on the Rum get drunk, aggro and turn into arseholes. Bundy Rum has that reputation in Australia and I am glad it is not foisted overseas.
It is practical and reasonable for a country to do what they think is best for them.
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Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
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As for Brexit and its effects on the UK:
This is, quite obviously, just the beginning and everything is in turmoil. Me, I really hope that I am going to be wrong because I like the country and, these days, very much depend on it. As many other expats, I can't help but notice the short-term effects because they are very real and affect me directly.
I think the warnings about the long-term effects are correct and that they haven't been taken seriously by many of the voters (and non-voters, actually). I think the legal experts who point out that Brexit actually must be a Parliamentary decision are correct, and I'm surprised this was not explored further long before the referendum. Cameron certainly should have.
And I think that this is something that should never have been voted on because it's actually something that is beyond most people (present company included). It is a bit like hiring people on the street as surgeons, it's not a good idea, because not everything is something that can be properly understood by the general population.
You want to live in a dictatorship, then please do this country a favor and fuck off. We vote in elections and choose the government. We made a decision and it is down to the government to implement that decision. But your heroes were too arrogant and moronic to have a plan for something they thought wasn't possible. So in fact, it is actually your beloved 'experts' that have proved to be utterly incompetent, a bit like they were when it comes to decision making regarding things like you know, wars. And in the case of Iraq, your beloved 'experts' were proved to be utterly incompetent, where as the British people and the "conspiracy theorists" have been proved right :viking:
WTF are you on about? Do try to focus, please.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.
It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.
We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.
A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.
It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators) will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).
I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.
The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.
But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
I think that you are right in what you said about monotone culture to an extent. I think a better word is assimilation. It ought not be a lofty ideal, it ought to be a requirement.
I am certain that there are many people in Britain, America and Australia who want ALL Muslims to stay away and all people from other cultures. Most don't though. I believe that most are happy for the variety and diversity BUT they want the immigrants to make their host nation their new home. Home in not just the residency sense but the abstract sense. The pride and patriotism.
I am a mongrel. I am part Irish, part English, part German and part Aboriginal. But I am 100% Australian. Do I feel the longing to embrace my Aboriginal culture? My German? My Irish? My English?
No I am Australian. I grew up with a diversity of cultures. I knocked around with Yugoslavians, Italians and Asians as a boy and in my early teens. I was Very close as a late teen and early 20's with Indian and Greeks. My First real love was an Egyptian girl. As I was working I became close to a lot of people from different Muslim persuasion too. All of these people were 100% Aussie too BUT they celebrated different occasions to me, they had different and exotic food and some of their beliefs were slightly different.
But each of these people assimilated and loved Australia. Some were first generation and some second and some third. This is where the problem lays with Radicalised Muslim extremism. It is not like people that I mentioned above. The radical Muslim extremist sees immigration as a religious passage of hijrah. It is not to make a home but as part of a greater effort to dominate and colonise. Letting these people in is not to soften their hateful resolve or to give them a new point of view. These radicals are toxic. Their resolve is absolutist and nihilistic. They not only do not understand the need and expectation to assimilate, they are completely uninterested in such a prospect.
As long as governments pander to the concept that stating these things is bad, wicked, fear-mongering and bigoted, then these nations will be hurt continually and the citizens of the countries will bear the brunt of the extremist inclinations.
-
Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.
It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.
We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.
A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.
It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators) will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).
I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.
The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.
But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.
I love how you dismiss everything and wave it off.
"Swimming pools? No it was just one swimming pool that had these things happen and I know it made international news for kids being sexually assaulted there regularly to the point where after "groping guards" had failed to make a difference, they were forced to make gender segregated times to spare young girls from being groped and raped by foreign men, but it was only one pool."
"Music concerts...meh."
"Rape capital of the world...doesn't mean much the stats are lying, the media skewed, they are all picking on poor inclusive and accepting Sweden."
"You so don't know what you are talking about. We may have a bad rap around the world but we have no problems at all."
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
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"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
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Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
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Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
I think that you are right in what you said about monotone culture to an extent. I think a better word is assimilation. It ought not be a lofty ideal, it ought to be a requirement.
I am certain that there are many people in Britain, America and Australia who want ALL Muslims to stay away and all people from other cultures. Most don't though. I believe that most are happy for the variety and diversity BUT they want the immigrants to make their host nation their new home. Home in not just the residency sense but the abstract sense. The pride and patriotism.
I am a mongrel. I am part Irish, part English, part German and part Aboriginal. But I am 100% Australian. Do I feel the longing to embrace my Aboriginal culture? My German? My Irish? My English?
No I am Australian. I grew up with a diversity of cultures. I knocked around with Yugoslavians, Italians and Asians as a boy and in my early teens. I was Very close as a late teen and early 20's with Indian and Greeks. My First real love was an Egyptian girl. As I was working I became close to a lot of people from different Muslim persuasion too. All of these people were 100% Aussie too BUT they celebrated different occasions to me, they had different and exotic food and some of their beliefs were slightly different.
But each of these people assimilated and loved Australia. Some were first generation and some second and some third. This is where the problem lays with Radicalised Muslim extremism. It is not like people that I mentioned above. The radical Muslim extremist sees immigration as a religious passage of hijrah. It is not to make a home but as part of a greater effort to dominate and colonise. Letting these people in is not to soften their hateful resolve or to give them a new point of view. These radicals are toxic. Their resolve is absolutist and nihilistic. They not only do not understand the need and expectation to assimilate, they are completely uninterested in such a prospect.
As long as governments pander to the concept that stating these things is bad, wicked, fear-mongering and bigoted, then these nations will be hurt continually and the citizens of the countries will bear the brunt of the extremist inclinations.
It's not meant to work, these policies have been carried out with evil intent. Sure, people could come in small numbers and gradually become like Brits, and that happens more in towns and villages. But when masses have been poured into the cities, it is fatal and the British people actually start trying to be like the immigrant population. It's embarrassing to hear some of them talk in their fake gangsta Jamaican wannabe patois.
Australia is a different animal.
Muslims have been poured into the West while we blow up their countries, not out naivety or good intentions. Can't really blame it on the Muslims, they are just pawns as are we.
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.
It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.
We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.
A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.
It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators) will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).
I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.
The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.
But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.
I love how you dismiss everything and wave it off.
"Swimming pools? No it was just one swimming pool that had these things happen and I know it made international news for kids being sexually assaulted there regularly to the point where after "groping guards" had failed to make a difference, they were forced to make gender segregated times to spare young girls from being groped and raped by foreign men, but it was only one pool."
"Music concerts...meh."
"Rape capital of the world...doesn't mean much the stats are lying, the media skewed, they are all picking on poor inclusive and accepting Sweden."
"You so don't know what you are talking about. We may have a bad rap around the world but we have no problems at all."
:clap:
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Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit.
Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".
I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally. That may in itself be a good thing.
Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?
I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.
It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.
We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.
A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.
It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators) will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).
I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.
The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.
But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.
I love how you dismiss everything and wave it off.
"Swimming pools? No it was just one swimming pool that had these things happen and I know it made international news for kids being sexually assaulted there regularly to the point where after "groping guards" had failed to make a difference, they were forced to make gender segregated times to spare young girls from being groped and raped by foreign men, but it was only one pool."
"Music concerts...meh."
"Rape capital of the world...doesn't mean much the stats are lying, the media skewed, they are all picking on poor inclusive and accepting Sweden."
"You so don't know what you are talking about. We may have a bad rap around the world but we have no problems at all."
I take it that you haven't studied the numbers, then? I guess it just fits your new MO that everything having to do with me is, or should be, under attack. Sort of sad, really.
Is this what happened when you started to obsess with everything Zegh? You simply went overboard and couldn't stop?
Pathetic.
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I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?
Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.
-
"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
:rofl:
What race is this?
-
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?
Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.
Possibly. Not that I heard of.
Well I wouldn't worry too much, Blairite May will most likely strike us a deal that pretty much keeps where we are now.
-
"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?
Not difficult is it? Just have some impartial body that can prosecute anyone found to be giving out misinformation and propaganda. The lies from both sides balanced things out slightly anyway, even though the government, news stations and half of the media were on the 'remain' side.
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
:rofl:
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
-
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
Interestingly enough, there are differences.
In WWI and WWII, Scottish (and possibly Welsh?) soldiers experiences far more foot problems related to their boots than did the English. It turns out there is an average difference in the shape of their feet. English have more of a square shaped foot due to more interbreeding with continental Europeans. Scottish have a more triangular shaped foot and boots that were made for Englishmen didn't fit very well.
(I wish I could remember the source I got this from)
-
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?
Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.
Possibly. Not that I heard of.
Well I wouldn't worry too much, Blairite May will most likely strike us a deal that pretty much keeps where we are now.
Nope. You'll quite possibly leave the EU and forfeit your right to vote in anything having to do with them, but the all-important access to the single market will equal all of the things you thought you'd get rid of by voting "leave", so most of you lot will discover in time you are actually somewhat worse off. You won't save any money because your economy will shrink. Quite the opposite, in fact, because you'll still have to fund a number of things now funded by EU money.
And all of this was pointed out by economists long before the referendum, and in far greater detail, but, as Gove said, you've had your share of experts.
It's going to be interesting to see if she actually does invoke Article 50. It will be political suicide for her, so I can see why she might think twice first.
-
"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?
Not difficult is it? Just have some impartial body that can prosecute anyone found to be giving out misinformation and propaganda. The lies from both sides balanced things out slightly anyway, even though the government, news stations and half of the media were on the 'remain' side.
What impartial body would that be? And how would they spot the liars? Or, for that matter, the people who told you the truth? How would they recognise the actual experts on finance and global economics, a majority of whom explained what would happen and why long before the referendum? Or would the people who warned you of the consequences be prosecuted in Benji-land?
You are funny, though.
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
:rofl:
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
I believe he meant the English-speaking peoples, so the Commonwealth and pretty much any colony you lot had at some point in the past. Basically, anywhere where English was ever the official language. At least, that's what the books referred to, IIRC.
In other words, Churchill most certainly included what you refer to as the "non British people" in his "race", actually about 800 million of them after WWII, because they were all allowed to live and work in the UK without a visa following the aptly-named British Nationality Act in the late 1940s.
There have been a number of attempts to limit this since then, of course.
Interestingly, the freedom of movement in the EU means that about 430 million or so people could theoretically be stopped at the borders once Brexit is complete but that would't affect the commonwealth. It also wouldn't affect the status of refugees under Article 14 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
-
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
Interestingly enough, there are differences.
In WWI and WWII, Scottish (and possibly Welsh?) soldiers experiences far more foot problems related to their boots than did the English. It turns out there is an average difference in the shape of their feet. English have more of a square shaped foot due to more interbreeding with continental Europeans. Scottish have a more triangular shaped foot and boots that were made for Englishmen didn't fit very well.
(I wish I could remember the source I got this from)
+
Interesting. I'd love to know more.
-
Long live misinformation and propaganda.
-
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
Interestingly enough, there are differences.
In WWI and WWII, Scottish (and possibly Welsh?) soldiers experiences far more foot problems related to their boots than did the English. It turns out there is an average difference in the shape of their feet. English have more of a square shaped foot due to more interbreeding with continental Europeans. Scottish have a more triangular shaped foot and boots that were made for Englishmen didn't fit very well.
(I wish I could remember the source I got this from)
+
Interesting. I'd love to know more.
Long time ago I read an article about genetics and secluded gene-pools. The northern provinces of the Netherlands are one of those secluded gene-ponds. And congenital dysplasia of the hip will be found there significantly more than in other areas of the Netherlands.
Can imagine something similar will be the case with the feet of the Welsh and Scots.
Among the Fins there was something genetically different from surrounding folks too.
Some of those things are relatively new, like blindness combined with deafness happening more in Louisiana. Some of those things are probably part of a group of people for many centuries.
-
Long live misinformation and propaganda.
Oh, you shouldn't worry. :P
-
I have to mention this..... But the deluge of Anti-Tory and Remain memes and messages on Facebook and Twitter dropped by about 99% the day Pokemon GO came out.
Coincidence? I think not.
-
I have to mention this..... But the deluge of Anti-Tory and Remain memes and messages on Facebook and Twitter dropped by about 99% the day Pokemon GO came out.
Coincidence? I think not.
:rofl:
-
What is Pokemon GO?
-
It is a game people play on their phones where they actually go outside and find Pokemon to capture. It shows up on the phone where they are.
I went out with Kayleigh and we found a few Pokemon around the foreshore. We found more people who were playing the game too.
Apparently there is a stink kicked up over where Pokemon can be found - like the Holocaust Museum for example and memorials as well. People think it's in bad taste for Pokemon to be located at those places.
-
So it's a bit like that GPS-based thing a few years back?
-
So it's a bit like that GPS-based thing a few years back?
But this one allows people to capture innocent animals and force them into gladiator battles for their own amusement. What can be wrong about that?
-
I prefer to capture men and force them to cock fight. :zoinks:
-
So it's a bit like that GPS-based thing a few years back?
Yeah it's augmented reality along with a simple game mechanic. You hold up your phone and look through it to see Pokemon appearing as if in the real world. You collect them and there are things called gyms where you have to send your pokemon to fight and capture the gym for one of three teams. The gyms are located based on GPS coordinates.
-
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
Interestingly enough, there are differences.
In WWI and WWII, Scottish (and possibly Welsh?) soldiers experiences far more foot problems related to their boots than did the English. It turns out there is an average difference in the shape of their feet. English have more of a square shaped foot due to more interbreeding with continental Europeans. Scottish have a more triangular shaped foot and boots that were made for Englishmen didn't fit very well.
(I wish I could remember the source I got this from)
Mine are webbed :autism:
-
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?
Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.
Possibly. Not that I heard of.
Well I wouldn't worry too much, Blairite May will most likely strike us a deal that pretty much keeps where we are now.
Nope. You'll quite possibly leave the EU and forfeit your right to vote in anything having to do with them, but the all-important access to the single market will equal all of the things you thought you'd get rid of by voting "leave", so most of you lot will discover in time you are actually somewhat worse off. You won't save any money because your economy will shrink. Quite the opposite, in fact, because you'll still have to fund a number of things now funded by EU money.
And all of this was pointed out by economists long before the referendum, and in far greater detail, but, as Gove said, you've had your share of experts.
It's going to be interesting to see if she actually does invoke Article 50. It will be political suicide for her, so I can see why she might think twice first.
Well let's hope so, as that's what we voted for! Na, things will just change. It'll be difficult for a couple of years but things will pick up. I don't care what your butthurt heroes are saying, they've been wrong on many occasions. Well duh, the £20,000 a minute we stop paying to the EU can be used for funding, and if it isn't, there will be protests.
It'll be political suicide if she doesn't.
-
"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?
Not difficult is it? Just have some impartial body that can prosecute anyone found to be giving out misinformation and propaganda. The lies from both sides balanced things out slightly anyway, even though the government, news stations and half of the media were on the 'remain' side.
What impartial body would that be? And how would they spot the liars? Or, for that matter, the people who told you the truth? How would they recognise the actual experts on finance and global economics, a majority of whom explained what would happen and why long before the referendum? Or would the people who warned you of the consequences be prosecuted in Benji-land?
You are funny, though.
Who knows. But it sounds like you're not familiar with books. They would write a pamphlet, the footnotes would be listed with sources for people to check. It would get people thinking and researching more independently and there could be no complaints. But I understand why you prefer the propaganda fest. Most of what we were getting were predictions, scare stories, threats and lies. They are not facts!
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
:rofl:
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
I believe he meant the English-speaking peoples, so the Commonwealth and pretty much any colony you lot had at some point in the past. Basically, anywhere where English was ever the official language. At least, that's what the books referred to, IIRC.
In other words, Churchill most certainly included what you refer to as the "non British people" in his "race", actually about 800 million of them after WWII, because they were all allowed to live and work in the UK without a visa following the aptly-named British Nationality Act in the late 1940s.
There have been a number of attempts to limit this since then, of course.
Interestingly, the freedom of movement in the EU means that about 430 million or so people could theoretically be stopped at the borders once Brexit is complete but that would't affect the commonwealth. It also wouldn't affect the status of refugees under Article 14 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Oh fuck off, an ignorant cunt like you would not have known a thing about the book, you've just used your favorite site wikipedia to catch up and pretend you aren't the clueless cunt that you are. I missed the "-" because it's a book that I have actually read a lot of, a long time ago. I'm referring to the first volume where he writes about how the British people were formed.
Late 40's? Well he wasn't in power then if you were suggesting that he introduced it?! Maybe you weren't aware that Churchill lost the election in 1945? If you know anything about Churchill, you would know he did not see non whites as British. He saw non whites as inferior.
-
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?
Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.
Possibly. Not that I heard of.
Well I wouldn't worry too much, Blairite May will most likely strike us a deal that pretty much keeps where we are now.
Nope. You'll quite possibly leave the EU and forfeit your right to vote in anything having to do with them, but the all-important access to the single market will equal all of the things you thought you'd get rid of by voting "leave", so most of you lot will discover in time you are actually somewhat worse off. You won't save any money because your economy will shrink. Quite the opposite, in fact, because you'll still have to fund a number of things now funded by EU money.
And all of this was pointed out by economists long before the referendum, and in far greater detail, but, as Gove said, you've had your share of experts.
It's going to be interesting to see if she actually does invoke Article 50. It will be political suicide for her, so I can see why she might think twice first.
Well let's hope so, as that's what we voted for! Na, things will just change. It'll be difficult for a couple of years but things will pick up. I don't care what your butthurt heroes are saying, they've been wrong on many occasions. Well duh, the £20,000 a minute we stop paying to the EU can be used for funding, and if it isn't, there will be protests.
It'll be political suicide if she doesn't.
Actually, the shrinking of your economy will negate more than what you save on leaving the EU. I believe most economists agree on this.
And yeah, she's fucked either way.
-
"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?
Not difficult is it? Just have some impartial body that can prosecute anyone found to be giving out misinformation and propaganda. The lies from both sides balanced things out slightly anyway, even though the government, news stations and half of the media were on the 'remain' side.
What impartial body would that be? And how would they spot the liars? Or, for that matter, the people who told you the truth? How would they recognise the actual experts on finance and global economics, a majority of whom explained what would happen and why long before the referendum? Or would the people who warned you of the consequences be prosecuted in Benji-land?
You are funny, though.
Who knows. But it sounds like you're not familiar with books. They would write a pamphlet, the footnotes would be listed with sources for people to check. It would get people thinking and researching more independently and there could be no complaints. But I understand why you prefer the propaganda fest. Most of what we were getting were predictions, scare stories, threats and lies. They are not facts!
I've heard of them, these "books". I'd love to see how you persuade the British public to read this particular book, assuming for a moment that it could be written and accepted by both sides. Because you do want a democracy, right?
A bunch of economists predicted what will happen, a vast majority of them stating that "leave" will mostly mean bad things. I'd consider some a few of them to be reasonably independent, as they are employed by universities in non-EU countries, but I'd probably trust those with personal stakes in the referendum more--they'd be the ones watching with horror what happens to their jobs because their country allowed the referendum in the first place.
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
:rofl:
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
I believe he meant the English-speaking peoples, so the Commonwealth and pretty much any colony you lot had at some point in the past. Basically, anywhere where English was ever the official language. At least, that's what the books referred to, IIRC.
In other words, Churchill most certainly included what you refer to as the "non British people" in his "race", actually about 800 million of them after WWII, because they were all allowed to live and work in the UK without a visa following the aptly-named British Nationality Act in the late 1940s.
There have been a number of attempts to limit this since then, of course.
Interestingly, the freedom of movement in the EU means that about 430 million or so people could theoretically be stopped at the borders once Brexit is complete but that would't affect the commonwealth. It also wouldn't affect the status of refugees under Article 14 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Oh fuck off, an ignorant cunt like you would not have known a thing about the book, you've just used your favorite site wikipedia to catch up and pretend you aren't the clueless cunt that you are. I missed the "-" because it's a book that I have actually read a lot of, a long time ago. I'm referring to the first volume where he writes about how the British people were formed.
Late 40's? Well he wasn't in power then if you were suggesting that he introduced it?! Maybe you weren't aware that Churchill lost the election in 1945? If you know anything about Churchill, you would know he did not see non whites as British. He saw non whites as inferior.
Books, not one book. At least that's how I was introduced to them a long time ago by my grandmother. The books I read had been translated to Finnish, though.
The 1948 (looked it up) Act was about codifying the rights of the Commonwealth citizens when the empire, of which Churchill was an advocate, was falling apart. Before the Act, they were simply British Subjects, just as everyone else, and Churchill certainly respected their rights as British Subjects. Pretty sure they were included in the history of the English-speaking peoples.
Of course, I'm well aware of his racist tendencies (I'd give him the benefit of a doubt, though) but I'm also fairly certain that he respected the rights of British Subjects, regardless of colour.
-
I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...
Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.
Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.
While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.
Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.
A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.
The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.
Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.
So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.
:facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2: :facepalm2:
I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory
"Hundreds of protesters..."
Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.
If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100 :lol1: A bit like this I guess
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html
Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?
Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.
Possibly. Not that I heard of.
Well I wouldn't worry too much, Blairite May will most likely strike us a deal that pretty much keeps where we are now.
Nope. You'll quite possibly leave the EU and forfeit your right to vote in anything having to do with them, but the all-important access to the single market will equal all of the things you thought you'd get rid of by voting "leave", so most of you lot will discover in time you are actually somewhat worse off. You won't save any money because your economy will shrink. Quite the opposite, in fact, because you'll still have to fund a number of things now funded by EU money.
And all of this was pointed out by economists long before the referendum, and in far greater detail, but, as Gove said, you've had your share of experts.
It's going to be interesting to see if she actually does invoke Article 50. It will be political suicide for her, so I can see why she might think twice first.
Well let's hope so, as that's what we voted for! Na, things will just change. It'll be difficult for a couple of years but things will pick up. I don't care what your butthurt heroes are saying, they've been wrong on many occasions. Well duh, the £20,000 a minute we stop paying to the EU can be used for funding, and if it isn't, there will be protests.
It'll be political suicide if she doesn't.
Actually, the shrinking of your economy will negate more than what you save on leaving the EU. I believe most economists agree on this.
And yeah, she's fucked either way.
Most 'economists' said that Osborne did a wonderful job, even though he was horrific. It's about what people you keep happy. You can do an awful job, but if you say the right things, suck the right dick and keep the right people rich while starving others, you will get praised.
-
"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.
And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.
It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year. The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise. They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year. It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.
Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.
But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.
Something needed to be done. People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism. The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week. This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year. The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it. The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so. Now it's time for the politicians to act.
It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you. There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils. At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.
This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?
Not difficult is it? Just have some impartial body that can prosecute anyone found to be giving out misinformation and propaganda. The lies from both sides balanced things out slightly anyway, even though the government, news stations and half of the media were on the 'remain' side.
What impartial body would that be? And how would they spot the liars? Or, for that matter, the people who told you the truth? How would they recognise the actual experts on finance and global economics, a majority of whom explained what would happen and why long before the referendum? Or would the people who warned you of the consequences be prosecuted in Benji-land?
You are funny, though.
Who knows. But it sounds like you're not familiar with books. They would write a pamphlet, the footnotes would be listed with sources for people to check. It would get people thinking and researching more independently and there could be no complaints. But I understand why you prefer the propaganda fest. Most of what we were getting were predictions, scare stories, threats and lies. They are not facts!
I've heard of them, these "books". I'd love to see how you persuade the British public to read this particular book, assuming for a moment that it could be written and accepted by both sides. Because you do want a democracy, right?
A bunch of economists predicted what will happen, a vast majority of them stating that "leave" will mostly mean bad things. I'd consider some a few of them to be reasonably independent, as they are employed by universities in non-EU countries, but I'd probably trust those with personal stakes in the referendum more--they'd be the ones watching with horror what happens to their jobs because their country allowed the referendum in the first place.
It's not up to anyone to persuade people. They would just be sent through doors rather than the shit we got. Nothing is perfect and we'd still get people denying facts, but it would've been far more sensible than what did happen.
We have no idea what's going to happen yet and will not until we leave, have formed a deal and let that pan out for a few years.
-
Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways. We had formed a monotone culture pretty much. White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades. That's insane. These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.
It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.
Nor is the fear for it, though.
It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then. Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close. We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago. But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane. When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street. A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister. Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each. Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged. Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you. Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.
:rofl:
What race is this?
Well in "English Speaking People's" by Winston Churchill, he speaks of the British race. No one really knows what race is though. I'd imagine though he's speaking of the English people made up of a few different types and had basically assimilated over the last 1000 years.
I believe he meant the English-speaking peoples, so the Commonwealth and pretty much any colony you lot had at some point in the past. Basically, anywhere where English was ever the official language. At least, that's what the books referred to, IIRC.
In other words, Churchill most certainly included what you refer to as the "non British people" in his "race", actually about 800 million of them after WWII, because they were all allowed to live and work in the UK without a visa following the aptly-named British Nationality Act in the late 1940s.
There have been a number of attempts to limit this since then, of course.
Interestingly, the freedom of movement in the EU means that about 430 million or so people could theoretically be stopped at the borders once Brexit is complete but that would't affect the commonwealth. It also wouldn't affect the status of refugees under Article 14 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Oh fuck off, an ignorant cunt like you would not have known a thing about the book, you've just used your favorite site wikipedia to catch up and pretend you aren't the clueless cunt that you are. I missed the "-" because it's a book that I have actually read a lot of, a long time ago. I'm referring to the first volume where he writes about how the British people were formed.
Late 40's? Well he wasn't in power then if you were suggesting that he introduced it?! Maybe you weren't aware that Churchill lost the election in 1945? If you know anything about Churchill, you would know he did not see non whites as British. He saw non whites as inferior.
Books, not one book. At least that's how I was introduced to them a long time ago by my grandmother. The books I read had been translated to Finnish, though.
The 1948 (looked it up) Act was about codifying the rights of the Commonwealth citizens when the empire, of which Churchill was an advocate, was falling apart. Before the Act, they were simply British Subjects, just as everyone else, and Churchill certainly respected their rights as British Subjects. Pretty sure they were included in the history of the English-speaking peoples.
Of course, I'm well aware of his racist tendencies (I'd give him the benefit of a doubt, though) but I'm also fairly certain that he respected the rights of British Subjects, regardless of colour.
Different volumes of the same title. OK, i'll give you the benefit of doubt.
Who knows, perhaps it was a desperate act by Churchill to try and save the Empire he'd destroyed. He would have seen them as separate to the British race/heritage.
He was all about money. He was a bigot and a war mongering alcoholic.
-
Stop with the interminable quotes! :GA:
-
Stop with the interminable quotes! :GA:
What?
-
Different volumes of the same title. OK, i'll give you the benefit of doubt.
Who knows, perhaps it was a desperate act by Churchill to try and save the Empire he'd destroyed. He would have seen them as separate to the British race/heritage.
He was all about money. He was a bigot and a war mongering alcoholic.
Yeah. The way he started that war against a perfectly peaceful Hitler was a fucking disgrace, the fat tory twat.
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Stop with the interminable quotes! :GA:
What?
Not you. :hahaha:
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Different volumes of the same title. OK, i'll give you the benefit of doubt.
Who knows, perhaps it was a desperate act by Churchill to try and save the Empire he'd destroyed. He would have seen them as separate to the British race/heritage.
He was all about money. He was a bigot and a war mongering alcoholic.
Tbh, Churchill didn't destroy the empire. The empire pretty much dissolved. Its time was past.
I've read a couple of the many Churchill biographies and it seems to me that his bigotry was typical of his times, but also that he did include all the "English-speaking peoples", regardless of colour as British Subjects.
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Stop with the interminable quotes! :GA:
Just did. :laugh:
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Different volumes of the same title. OK, i'll give you the benefit of doubt.
Who knows, perhaps it was a desperate act by Churchill to try and save the Empire he'd destroyed. He would have seen them as separate to the British race/heritage.
He was all about money. He was a bigot and a war mongering alcoholic.
Tbh, Churchill didn't destroy the empire. The empire pretty much dissolved. Its time was past.
I've read a couple of the many Churchill biographies and it seems to me that his bigotry was typical of his times, but also that he did include all the "English-speaking peoples", regardless of colour as British Subjects.
He helped finish it. The war put us in massive debt.
But people don't excuse Hitler's bigotry as "typical of the times". He may of considered them as "English-speaking peoples" but not as the same race and he would have seen them as inferior.
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Different volumes of the same title. OK, i'll give you the benefit of doubt.
Who knows, perhaps it was a desperate act by Churchill to try and save the Empire he'd destroyed. He would have seen them as separate to the British race/heritage.
He was all about money. He was a bigot and a war mongering alcoholic.
Tbh, Churchill didn't destroy the empire. The empire pretty much dissolved. Its time was past.
I've read a couple of the many Churchill biographies and it seems to me that his bigotry was typical of his times, but also that he did include all the "English-speaking peoples", regardless of colour as British Subjects.
He helped finish it. The war put us in massive debt.
But people don't excuse Hitler's bigotry as "typical of the times". He may of considered them as "English-speaking peoples" but not as the same race and he would have seen them as inferior.
Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
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For a moment there I thought that Churchill had just been compared to Hitler but I suppose I must have dreamt it.
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The odds of anyone at all being compared to Hitler are fairly high on this site.
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True dat.
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Different volumes of the same title. OK, i'll give you the benefit of doubt.
Who knows, perhaps it was a desperate act by Churchill to try and save the Empire he'd destroyed. He would have seen them as separate to the British race/heritage.
He was all about money. He was a bigot and a war mongering alcoholic.
Tbh, Churchill didn't destroy the empire. The empire pretty much dissolved. Its time was past.
I've read a couple of the many Churchill biographies and it seems to me that his bigotry was typical of his times, but also that he did include all the "English-speaking peoples", regardless of colour as British Subjects.
He helped finish it. The war put us in massive debt.
But people don't excuse Hitler's bigotry as "typical of the times". He may of considered them as "English-speaking peoples" but not as the same race and he would have seen them as inferior.
Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
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For a moment there I thought that Churchill had just been compared to Hitler but I suppose I must have dreamt it.
Wouldn't want to be overly harsh, on Hitler.
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For a moment there I thought that Churchill had just been compared to Hitler but I suppose I must have dreamt it.
You must have. This is a family-oriented site.
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
A kind of quantative easing, as it were.
My Great-grandfather and my Grandfather were at Tonypandy in 1911 when Churchill ordered the use of cavalry against striking miners. My Granddad wouldn't allow Churchills name to be spoken in his house. So I'm weoll aware that he even thought of the white Welsh as vermin. But he was a man whose attitudes were forged by the time in which he lived.
I have no illusions that he was a nice man at all. But someth the time, cometh the man, and during WWII we needed a heartless bastard at the helm. And that, thank God, is what we got.
The War Debt? He had no choice. The Americans demanded payment for every ship, jeep, gun and bullet. We got sent an invoice for every tin of corned beef they shipped us. After 1945 they cancelled every war debt owed to them by every other country, except the British. They made us pay with interest. And that debt was only recently finished. Account closed.
But to compare this man to Hitler? Nah. A million miles apart.
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I didn't know they cancelled the war debt for every other country.
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I didn't know there was a war debt to begin with. Maybe I'm ignorant in this area.
The USA demanded Britain pay them back for every bit of war aid, and Britain actually did it? And actually completed the payment many years later?
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I didn't know there was a war debt to begin with. Maybe I'm ignorant in this area.
The USA demanded Britain pay them back for every bit of war aid, and Britain actually did it? And actually completed the payment many years later?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
I'm glad you put "6 million" in quotations. I said he helped Zionism and worked with ZioJooz, and ZioJoo leaders wanted the suffering to happen even to their own people as to find a good excuse to create the state of "Israel".
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
A kind of quantative easing, as it were.
My Great-grandfather and my Grandfather were at Tonypandy in 1911 when Churchill ordered the use of cavalry against striking miners. My Granddad wouldn't allow Churchills name to be spoken in his house. So I'm weoll aware that he even thought of the white Welsh as vermin. But he was a man whose attitudes were forged by the time in which he lived.
I have no illusions that he was a nice man at all. But someth the time, cometh the man, and during WWII we needed a heartless bastard at the helm. And that, thank God, is what we got.
The War Debt? He had no choice. The Americans demanded payment for every ship, jeep, gun and bullet. We got sent an invoice for every tin of corned beef they shipped us. After 1945 they cancelled every war debt owed to them by every other country, except the British. They made us pay with interest. And that debt was only recently finished. Account closed.
But to compare this man to Hitler? Nah. A million miles apart.
We didn't go to war with Germany cause Hitler was a nasty man, we went to war with Germany because they pulled away from the global market and started printing their own money.
Churchill, explaining why Jooz had more right to Palestine than the Palestinians.
"I do not agree that the dog in a
manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain
there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for
instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America
or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been
done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade
race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken
their place,"
Remind you of anyone else? :hitler:
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We didn't go to war with Germany cause Hitler was a nasty man, we went to war with Germany because they pulled away from the global market and started printing their own money.
I was drinking tea when I read this sentence and now have a wet keyboard.
I think you've got history a little bit mixed up.
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
I'm glad you put "6 million" in quotations. I said he helped Zionism and worked with ZioJooz, and ZioJoo leaders wanted the suffering to happen even to their own people as to find a good excuse to create the state of "Israel".
I don't even know where to begin on this one, so I'll just say it's spelled "Jews", regardless of what they teach you under that bridge.
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We didn't go to war with Germany cause Hitler was a nasty man, we went to war with Germany because they pulled away from the global market and started printing their own money.
I was drinking tea when I read this sentence and now have a wet keyboard.
I think you've got history a little bit mixed up.
Awww, you think we went to war because we just like beating the badie. History is written by the winners of wars. I guess you believe the US has attacked so many countries because they hate Communism and love democracy? :grouphug:
Churchill himself is alleged to have said "Germany’s unforgivable crime before the second world war was her attempt to extricate her economic power from the world’s trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit."
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
I'm glad you put "6 million" in quotations. I said he helped Zionism and worked with ZioJooz, and ZioJoo leaders wanted the suffering to happen even to their own people as to find a good excuse to create the state of "Israel".
I don't even know where to begin on this one, so I'll just say it's spelled "Jews", regardless of what they teach you under that bridge.
Last time I tried that it turned into a picture. Nazi Germany worked with Zionisstss to get German Jooz into Palestine, that's a fact. And you obviously aren't aware that they would have stopped at nothing to get Palestine.
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(http://www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/I-am-not-saying.jpg)
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We didn't go to war with Germany cause Hitler was a nasty man, we went to war with Germany because they pulled away from the global market and started printing their own money.
I was drinking tea when I read this sentence and now have a wet keyboard.
I think you've got history a little bit mixed up.
Awww, you think we went to war because we just like beating the badie. History is written by the winners of wars. I guess you believe the US has attacked so many countries because they hate Communism and love democracy? :grouphug:
Churchill himself is alleged to have said "Germany’s unforgivable crime before the second world war was her attempt to extricate her economic power from the world’s trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit."
I believe that the wqar started because mad Austrian gained power and invaded Poland. The first clue to this is found in the book that he wrote over a decade before about hwo he was going to gain power and invade Poland. It was kind of a big giveaway. As was the decade of german rearming and planning for war.
I think if Mr Churchill woukld have started it he would have given his own side a bit of a head start. But that's just me injecting a bit of logic into your fantasy world. Sorry.
And by the way.....
.....Churchill NEVER said that. That quote appeared relatively recently as an unattributed quote in the forward of a book and the quote was later linked to Churchill. But if you can find it in anything Churchill wrote himself then I'd be glad to apologies.
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Hitler's bigotry was in many ways typical of his times--he certainly didn't invent anti-Semitism. It would be a dangerous mistake to assume that his particular brand of bigotry was unique or rare.
Why be obsessed with Jooz? He helped Zionizts and Zionizm greatly. He didn't help Polish people, Gypsies or the disabled in the slightest.
If you by "helping" mean "killing 6 million people", then I suppose you are on to something.
I'm glad you put "6 million" in quotations. I said he helped Zionism and worked with ZioJooz, and ZioJoo leaders wanted the suffering to happen even to their own people as to find a good excuse to create the state of "Israel".
Ooh good god!!! Just when Benji was making sense, he goes back to :tinfoil: again.
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(http://www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/I-am-not-saying.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
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We didn't go to war with Germany cause Hitler was a nasty man, we went to war with Germany because they pulled away from the global market and started printing their own money.
I was drinking tea when I read this sentence and now have a wet keyboard.
I think you've got history a little bit mixed up.
Awww, you think we went to war because we just like beating the badie. History is written by the winners of wars. I guess you believe the US has attacked so many countries because they hate Communism and love democracy? :grouphug:
Churchill himself is alleged to have said "Germany’s unforgivable crime before the second world war was her attempt to extricate her economic power from the world’s trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit."
I believe that the wqar started because mad Austrian gained power and invaded Poland. The first clue to this is found in the book that he wrote over a decade before about hwo he was going to gain power and invade Poland. It was kind of a big giveaway. As was the decade of german rearming and planning for war.
I think if Mr Churchill woukld have started it he would have given his own side a bit of a head start. But that's just me injecting a bit of logic into your fantasy world. Sorry.
And by the way.....
.....Churchill NEVER said that. That quote appeared relatively recently as an unattributed quote in the forward of a book and the quote was later linked to Churchill. But if you can find it in anything Churchill wrote himself then I'd be glad to apologies.
If that was the case we'd have attacked Stalin too, unless it matters which side you attack Poland from?
I know that, hence why I said "alleged". He may have said it, of course there's no concrete proof, but he'd only have been telling the truth. Germany started printing their own money under Hitler to the dismay of globalist banks and that's why we went to war with him.
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If that was the case we'd have attacked Stalin too, unless it matters which side you attack Poland from?
Oh yes. Because Britain were really in the position to attack everyone in 1939. We did a deal. Like we had to.
I know that, hence why I said "alleged". He may have said it, of course there's no concrete proof, but he'd only have been telling the truth.
There's no concrete proof he said it. But there is concrete proof he didn't. Like how it doesn't appear in any of his writings. And there are no fucking WITNESSES to his saying it. Ever. But apart from that. Yeah he might have said it. (not)
You;re talking about one of the most quoted men in history. If he had said anything like it then you'd know.
So show your sources or accept that it's bullshit.
Germany started printing their own money under Hitler to the dismay of globalist banks and that's why we went to war with him.
Germany "printed their own money"?
Of course they printed their own money. It was their fucking money. Like, they used to get Prontoprint to do it? Or Vista?
Everyone had their own currency and printed their own currency via their own national banks.
What the fuck are you talking about?
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If that was the case we'd have attacked Stalin too, unless it matters which side you attack Poland from?
Oh yes. Because Britain were really in the position to attack everyone in 1939. We did a deal. Like we had to.
I know that, hence why I said "alleged". He may have said it, of course there's no concrete proof, but he'd only have been telling the truth.
There's no concrete proof he said it. But there is concrete proof he didn't. Like how it doesn't appear in any of his writings. And there are no fucking WITNESSES to his saying it. Ever. But apart from that. Yeah he might have said it. (not)
You;re talking about one of the most quoted men in history. If he had said anything like it then you'd know.
So show your sources or accept that it's bullshit.
Germany started printing their own money under Hitler to the dismay of globalist banks and that's why we went to war with him.
Germany "printed their own money"?
Of course they printed their own money. It was their fucking money. Like, they used to get Prontoprint to do it? Or Vista?
Everyone had their own currency and printed their own currency via their own national banks.
What the fuck are you talking about?
We fought with the Soviets who attacked Poland, so it wasn't anything to do with attacking Poland. And we fought with Roosevelt who said that his greatest ambition was "to see the destruction of the British Empire". By 1946, Churchill was back on the war trail for his rich friends, by trying to convince the US to go to war with Russia.
He's alleged to have said it to Lord Robert Boothby. It could well be bullshit.
Hitler printed his own money. He stopped globalist banks printing money to sell to the state and left that to themselves, which wiped out the national debt in a few years and fucked the globalist banks.
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If that was the case we'd have attacked Stalin too, unless it matters which side you attack Poland from?
Oh yes. Because Britain were really in the position to attack everyone in 1939. We did a deal. Like we had to.
I know that, hence why I said "alleged". He may have said it, of course there's no concrete proof, but he'd only have been telling the truth.
There's no concrete proof he said it. But there is concrete proof he didn't. Like how it doesn't appear in any of his writings. And there are no fucking WITNESSES to his saying it. Ever. But apart from that. Yeah he might have said it. (not)
You;re talking about one of the most quoted men in history. If he had said anything like it then you'd know.
So show your sources or accept that it's bullshit.
Germany started printing their own money under Hitler to the dismay of globalist banks and that's why we went to war with him.
Germany "printed their own money"?
Of course they printed their own money. It was their fucking money. Like, they used to get Prontoprint to do it? Or Vista?
Everyone had their own currency and printed their own currency via their own national banks.
What the fuck are you talking about?
We fought with the Soviets who attacked Poland, so it wasn't anything to do with attacking Poland. And we fought with Roosevelt who said that his greatest ambition was "to see the destruction of the British Empire". By 1946, Churchill was back on the war trail for his rich friends, by trying to convince the US to go to war with Russia.
He's alleged to have said it to Lord Robert Boothby. It could well be bullshit.
Hitler printed his own money. He stopped globalist banks printing money to sell to the state and left that to themselves, which wiped out the national debt in a few years and fucked the globalist banks.
So Hitler was the victim?
Do you have a swastika on your bedroom wall? Just asking.
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:popcorn:
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I didn't have an omelet.
I had hash browns mixed with cheese, scrambled eggs, ham, onions and jalapeno peppers. Hash browns all the way.
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Nor did I.
I had a pizza. Started in the bread machine and about an hour later I was kneading the dough and salting it a bit. (It seemed a bit bready and I wanted it to be more crispy) I added my own home made "spaghetti sauce" and many more store bought ingredients, like pepperoni, mozarella, mushrooms along with various spices and some garden things like rosemary, three mild peppers, green onions, left over meatballs etc.
It was fabulous.
Mainly I am concerned as to why everyone seems to be talking more about seventy year old history (not that that is unimportant, mind you, just that unfolding before us on a daily basis is truly disturbing, the world over, not just in my own back yard.) than the enormously terrifying current history that surrounds us every day.
I know, I stepped away for a few days. Maybe I just need to read more here. I know you folks are very intelligent, even though only a bare few see eye to eye more often than a stone molts.
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Oh, there is plenty of current misery to talk about. :(
Brexit is difficult to avoid for me, as it's consequences cost me money.
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Oh, there is plenty of current misery to talk about. :(
Brexit is difficult to avoid for me, as it's consequences cost me money.
All but a few of my retirement assets are tied to American mining, a few random things like a 401K thing related to my photography work in the past. A few other things that I have learned about and some rare coin auction investments. As an American with purely "local" investments, I am mostly isolated. (my rare coin investments have gone nuts, skyrocketing. Not sure I know why.)
I feel quite safe from Brexit.
However, I can feel a sense of what this has brought to ALL European investors, just from watching news to see where my investments are heading.
I feel for you and how this will affect you in the future.
I just hope that the EU survives (for all of us), but I have reason for doubt.
Godspeed, friend!
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Oh, there is plenty of current misery to talk about. :(
Brexit is difficult to avoid for me, as it's consequences cost me money.
All but a few of my retirement assets are tied to American mining, a few random things like a 401K thing related to my photography work in the past. A few other things that I have learned about and some rare coin auction investments. As an American with purely "local" investments, I am mostly isolated. (my rare coin investments have gone nuts, skyrocketing. Not sure I know why.)
I feel quite safe from Brexit.
However, I can feel a sense of what this has brought to ALL European investors, just from watching news to see where my investments are heading.
I feel for you and how this will affect you in the future.
I just hope that the EU survives (for all of us), but I have reason for doubt.
Godspeed, friend!
You too. :)
I don't know if the EU will survive or not. I too have reason to doubt, and it occurs to me that while the Brits will almost certainly lose out in economic terms, they are essentially loners. I am, too, which is probably why I always feel at home when in London. Maybe the kind of union EU represents is not for them as a people. I think it's important to remember that most of their earlier unions were strictly on their terms.
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You too. :)
I don't know if the EU will survive or not. I too have reason to doubt, and it occurs to me that while the Brits will almost certainly lose out in economic terms, they are essentially loners. I am, too, which is probably why I always feel at home when in London. Maybe the kind of union EU represents is not for them as a people. I think it's important to remember that most of their earlier unions were strictly on their terms.
Most of the poeple I know who did vote to leave actually want to stay in the common market, but by that they mean the common market, and not the federal state it has become. They wanted change but didn't think it would ever happen unless soemthing sizable happened to the EU. Leaving was an act of desperation to force change.
And also.... London is not Britain. Britain has different attitudes and feelings to London. The 90% of Britain that is outside London pretty much hates the 10% in London. They really are two different things.
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London is not Britain, no, just part of it, and sweeping statements tend to do little good, especially when they are so obviously not true.
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
Yeah, aren't you from Liverpool or something??
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I like London. Going there now. :)
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I'm from Manchester
And yeah I always like going down to London :)
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
You've grown up in another big multicultural city though? You don't know any different, right?
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If that was the case we'd have attacked Stalin too, unless it matters which side you attack Poland from?
Oh yes. Because Britain were really in the position to attack everyone in 1939. We did a deal. Like we had to.
I know that, hence why I said "alleged". He may have said it, of course there's no concrete proof, but he'd only have been telling the truth.
There's no concrete proof he said it. But there is concrete proof he didn't. Like how it doesn't appear in any of his writings. And there are no fucking WITNESSES to his saying it. Ever. But apart from that. Yeah he might have said it. (not)
You;re talking about one of the most quoted men in history. If he had said anything like it then you'd know.
So show your sources or accept that it's bullshit.
Germany started printing their own money under Hitler to the dismay of globalist banks and that's why we went to war with him.
Germany "printed their own money"?
Of course they printed their own money. It was their fucking money. Like, they used to get Prontoprint to do it? Or Vista?
Everyone had their own currency and printed their own currency via their own national banks.
What the fuck are you talking about?
We fought with the Soviets who attacked Poland, so it wasn't anything to do with attacking Poland. And we fought with Roosevelt who said that his greatest ambition was "to see the destruction of the British Empire". By 1946, Churchill was back on the war trail for his rich friends, by trying to convince the US to go to war with Russia.
He's alleged to have said it to Lord Robert Boothby. It could well be bullshit.
Hitler printed his own money. He stopped globalist banks printing money to sell to the state and left that to themselves, which wiped out the national debt in a few years and fucked the globalist banks.
So Hitler was the victim?
Do you have a swastika on your bedroom wall? Just asking.
I said that did I? Of course he wasn't a victim, he was a mass murderer. But he's made out to be more of a monster than he was and for different reasons than what we're told about. Just look at what the West did to Iran when they nationalised their oil in the 50's.
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
You've grown up in another big multicultural city though? You don't know any different, right?
i was responding to a post about people outside of london hating london. nothing about people in rural areas or towns hating london
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I'm from Manchester
And yeah I always like going down to London :)
How did you end up with a scouse accent??
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
You've grown up in another big multicultural city though? You don't know any different, right?
i was responding to a post about people outside of london hating london. nothing about people in rural areas or towns hating london
I know, and I'm suggesting why you don't dislike London.
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I'm from Manchester
And yeah I always like going down to London :)
How did you end up with a scouse accent??
Secret Liverpool fan :orly:
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
You've grown up in another big multicultural city though? You don't know any different, right?
i was responding to a post about people outside of london hating london. nothing about people in rural areas or towns hating london
I know, and I'm suggesting why you don't dislike London.
Because it's the only reason why? Seriously, you need to get some help.
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I'm from Manchester
And yeah I always like going down to London :)
How did you end up with a scouse accent??
Secret Liverpool fan :orly:
:2thumbsup:
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
You've grown up in another big multicultural city though? You don't know any different, right?
i was responding to a post about people outside of london hating london. nothing about people in rural areas or towns hating london
I know, and I'm suggesting why you don't dislike London.
Because it's the only reason why? Seriously, you need to get some help.
Please give some other reasons why people who hadn't grown up in a multicultural hell hole would dislike London.
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I wouldn't say I hate London, or Londoners. And Ive never lived in London, although I do go down there quite a lot
You've grown up in another big multicultural city though? You don't know any different, right?
i was responding to a post about people outside of london hating london. nothing about people in rural areas or towns hating london
I know, and I'm suggesting why you don't dislike London.
Because it's the only reason why? Seriously, you need to get some help.
Please give some other reasons why people who hadn't grown up in a multicultural hell hole would dislike London.
???
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Please give some other reasons why people who hadn't grown up in a multicultural hell hole would dislike London.
I dislike London because it's hip and trendy to dislike London. :zoinks:
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"Please give some other reasons why people who hadn't grown up in a multicultural hell hole would dislike London."
This sentence is a classic example of why I don't argue (much). I can't wrap my head around the negative thrown in. It just confuses me and makes my head hurt trying to make sense of it.
But, please, don't try to explain this to help me out. I like me the way I am -- pure and simple.
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/shrugs
There isn't much sense in it. It's not the negation, it's that the question is implied as only having two options.
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Just throwing in a little message from Peaguy.
Btw, could you pass on this message on i2's brexit topic.
"Leeeeeave the Breeg alone. So fucking what if he made a double negation. The mascot of Iron Maiden can do no wrong. Up the Irons! Got some tunes for my gym training.
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So nothing? If people are used to living in a nice area, they will be more likely to dislike a multicultural hell hole, where as a person growing up in that kind of hell hole feels forced to fit in and tries desperately to speak like a gangsta. The other point being that so many British people moved away from London to get away from the foreign mess it's become, though some of that was down to state ethnic cleansing.
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Just throwing in a little message from Peaguy.
Btw, could you pass on this message on i2's brexit topic.
"Leeeeeave the Breeg alone. So fucking what if he made a double negation. The mascot of Iron Maiden can do no wrong. Up the Irons! Got some tunes for my gym training.
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And :orly:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-brexit-surprisingly-strong-uk-data-dispel-recession-fears-2016-08-18
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Just throwing in a little message from Peaguy.
Btw, could you pass on this message on i2's brexit topic.
"Leeeeeave the Breeg alone. So fucking what if he made a double negation. The mascot of Iron Maiden can do no wrong. Up the Irons! Got some tunes for my gym training.
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So nothing? If people are used to living in a nice area, they will be more likely to dislike a multicultural hell hole, where as a person growing up in that kind of hell hole feels forced to fit in and tries desperately to speak like a gangsta. The other point being that so many British people moved away from London to get away from the foreign mess it's become, though some of that was down to state ethnic cleansing.
There are so many bigoted assumptions here that I don't know where to begin.
So I won't.
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Completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that it's true.
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/shrugs
It takes more than you saying so.
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So nothing? If people are used to living in a nice area, they will be more likely to dislike a multicultural hell hole, where as a person growing up in that kind of hell hole feels forced to fit in and tries desperately to speak like a gangsta. The other point being that so many British people moved away from London to get away from the foreign mess it's become, though some of that was down to state ethnic cleansing.
There are so many bigoted assumptions here that I don't know where to begin.
So I won't.
Probably best not to. I have not read what BenjaminBreeg said BUT if you are assessing whether it is bigoted or not, your opinion is about the last one someone ought to reference to make a judgment on such things.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
My Irish, Scottish, and English sides wanted to vote. My German side just sighed and looked down while shaking its head slowly back and forth.
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
My Irish, Scottish, and English sides wanted to vote. My German side just sighed and looked down while shaking its head slowly back and forth.
I'm still sick. I keep checking the newspapers every day in the hope that Brexit may be derailed. No, it just seems more and more certain by the day :bigcry:
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Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
My Irish, Scottish, and English sides wanted to vote. My German side just sighed and looked down while shaking its head slowly back and forth.
I'm still sick. I keep checking the newspapers every day in the hope that Brexit may be derailed. No, it just seems more and more certain by the day :bigcry:
It's a bad omen for our upcoming election. It was amazing watching interviews of common Brits saying they didn't understand what they voted for afterwards and how they wanted to go back and vote again differently. The best was David Tennant reading Scottish Tweets ripping Trump after he said Scotland spoke up for their country, when Scots overwhelmingly voted to stay. If you haven't seen it, you should look it up. It was on Full Frontal w/Samantha Bee and is probably on youtube.
-
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
My Irish, Scottish, and English sides wanted to vote. My German side just sighed and looked down while shaking its head slowly back and forth.
I'm still sick. I keep checking the newspapers every day in the hope that Brexit may be derailed. No, it just seems more and more certain by the day :bigcry:
It's a bad omen for our upcoming election. It was amazing watching interviews of common Brits saying they didn't understand what they voted for afterwards and how they wanted to go back and vote again differently. The best was David Tennant reading Scottish Tweets ripping Trump after he said Scotland spoke up for their country, when Scots overwhelmingly voted to stay. If you haven't seen it, you should look it up. It was on Full Frontal w/Samantha Bee and is probably on youtube.
It got quite a bit of publicity in the Scottish press. I'm still unsure whether Trump was being clueless, or was actually trolling us >:(
-
Fucking awful :thumbdn:
Genuinely feel devastated :'(
Stayed up all night watching the results come through with a growing sense of horror.
Got about an hours sleep, and now I just want to cry >:(
:hug:
Could you vote from where you are?
I put off registering until the last minute, and when I finally got around to register, I couldn't. Turned out that because I hadn't been registered to vote in N.Ireland, I couldn't easily register to vote from here >:( It was way too late to do anything about it. Doesn't matter now though (emo) Leave won by quite a decent margin.
All my friends living here voted though. Obviously they voted remain. Would have been pretty dumb of them to have voted leave :laugh: Also, I think I'd have fallen out with any who voted leave :viking:
One of my friends and his fiance are talking about maybe moving back home because of the vote. They have a young daughter too. I get to play at being an auntie, and they're an awesome family. I'd be completely sick if they left :bigcry:
Hopefully they're just overreacting, and they won't have to leave.
I'm just in the foulest of moods at the moment :angrydance: I still can't quite believe the country voted to do this. Feel such utter contempt for England and Wales right now >:( Can't help feeling this was a vote for racism, intolerance, and isolationism :hitler: Really hope I'm wrong though :(
My Irish, Scottish, and English sides wanted to vote. My German side just sighed and looked down while shaking its head slowly back and forth.
I'm still sick. I keep checking the newspapers every day in the hope that Brexit may be derailed. No, it just seems more and more certain by the day :bigcry:
It's a bad omen for our upcoming election. It was amazing watching interviews of common Brits saying they didn't understand what they voted for afterwards and how they wanted to go back and vote again differently. The best was David Tennant reading Scottish Tweets ripping Trump after he said Scotland spoke up for their country, when Scots overwhelmingly voted to stay. If you haven't seen it, you should look it up. It was on Full Frontal w/Samantha Bee and is probably on youtube.
It got quite a bit of publicity in the Scottish press. I'm still unsure whether Trump was being clueless, or was actually trolling us >:(
Either way it was funny. I am betting cluelessness. Everyone in the audience had a confused "WTF?" face on
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FFS, would you guys fix your quotes!! :MLA:
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I am still wondering when they will realise that they need to repeal old legislation and enact new before they can invoke Article 50 without the PM overstepping her boundaries.
Or maybe they already know but shut up about it.
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I am still wondering when they will realise that they need to repeal old legislation and enact new before they can invoke Article 50 without the PM overstepping her boundaries.
Or maybe they already know but shut up about it.
Apparently she been advised that she can trigger article 50, without a parliamentary vote.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-31/u-k-cabinet-sees-no-need-for-parliament-vote-on-brexit-trigger
U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May’s cabinet concluded there’s no need to hold a parliamentary vote before beginning the formal process for pulling Britain out of the European Union, with ministers saying they want to “push ahead” with Brexit.
It hardly seems to matter though. If it is put to MPs to vote, the Tories have a majority. I know that the majority of Tory MPs were pro-EU during the referendum, but it would be career suicide for a Tory MP to vote against "the will of the people." >:(
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"CELEBRATE GOOD TIMES, COME ON!
Still talking about evil Brexit, then? I did leafleting for the Brexit vote. It's great to know my hard efforts paid off. It's worth getting the greedy fucktards their pay cuts.
And the UK is going to burn? Win, win. So will your one world government bollocks heralded by the EU.
No one tells me what I should believe in. I'll take any fascist Bremainer on - the ones who sit on their arses not campaigning but judge people like me who do do do. Get te fuck out."
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
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I am still wondering when they will realise that they need to repeal old legislation and enact new before they can invoke Article 50 without the PM overstepping her boundaries.
Or maybe they already know but shut up about it.
Apparently she been advised that she can trigger article 50, without a parliamentary vote.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-31/u-k-cabinet-sees-no-need-for-parliament-vote-on-brexit-trigger
U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May’s cabinet concluded there’s no need to hold a parliamentary vote before beginning the formal process for pulling Britain out of the European Union, with ministers saying they want to “push ahead” with Brexit.
It hardly seems to matter though. If it is put to MPs to vote, the Tories have a majority. I know that the majority of Tory MPs were pro-EU during the referendum, but it would be career suicide for a Tory MP to vote against "the will of the people." >:(
It's not that simple, according to constitutional lawyers. They need to repeal the 1972 European whatever it was called Act with new legislation. The Queen will have to sign it, and the House of Lords may block the legislation for up to a year, I think..
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
No, he prefers being messenger
I like seeing Peas opinion on things as do others. We are aware he is not a member
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
No, he prefers being messenger
I like seeing Peas opinion on things as do others. We are aware he is not a member
Not talking to you.
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As for talking to Pea, find him on Facebook.
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As for talking to Pea, find him on Facebook.
We can see what he says on here too.
Or are you no saying the in addition to him being banned, which we all understand, you are making it forbidden (and perhaps a bannable) offence to post his thought from elsewhere on here?
If so what is the next stage of your moderation creep?
How about bannable to mention his name?
How about deleting all evidence he was here?
How about anything on here you don't like?
How about you talk plainly here? What are you saying to Ozy and is it a wish, request, order and what does he face if he doesn't wish to comply?
BTW Pea doesn't have a Facebook, you horse's arse.
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Fucking hell, Al, I am asking him to stop. I wasn't asking you. What is so hard to understand about it?
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Fucking hell, Al, I am asking him to stop. I wasn't asking you. What is so hard to understand about it?
We have all discussed this. He doesn't want to stop and many of us don't mind seeing Pea on here. What part of this don't you understand.
It matters because if you are saying ultimately you don't like it but it's up to Ozy, Ozy will likely continue. If you say Ozy is forbidden and has no choice, I guess he will stop.
Is this now against the rules and are you going to allow moderation creep here? It's a simple question
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Since when are you answering Ozy's questions? I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself even if he is taking messages.
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Since when are you answering Ozy's questions? I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself even if he is taking messages.
It's a free forum.....or is it?
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Since when are you answering Ozy's questions? I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself even if he is taking messages.
It's a free forum.....or is it?
Trigger is right. You are simply a troll.
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Since when are you answering Ozy's questions? I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself even if he is taking messages.
It's a free forum.....or is it?
Trigger is right. You are simply a troll.
Not simply, though yes I have been trolling you.. Five months is a long time and in addition to make points I mix it up with a bit of trolling to humour myself. Variety is the spice of life
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
You lost that ability to ask that question when I started doing it! Instead of talking to me, you talked around and over and under me. You and several other members, who did the same! Why do you confront me now? I will not post anything that attacks you directly! And I will not post anything that I see as a misinterpretation of others. Deal with it or...............
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Since when are you answering Ozy's questions? I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself even if he is taking messages.
It's a free forum.....or is it?
Trigger is right. You are simply a troll.
Not simply, though yes I have been trolling you.. Five months is a long time and in addition to make points I mix it up with a bit of trolling to humour myself. Variety is the spice of life
And not a very good troll at that.
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There we go Odeon. :plus: Ozy
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From Pea "So... Ari acknowledges me now? How amusing.
If he wants me to stop Ozy from posting on my behalf, I expect him to do one gesture for me:
I want him to apologise for wasting British taxpayers' money for bring in the police over something he doesn't like yet he has no issue having my personal shit on his little playpen called IntensitySquared.
If he apologises for being a dick in the past, I'll accept it and leave this place alone.
He won't be big enough to do it though. Instead, he'll just trying to censor me as usual.
Glad to know I still upset him."
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
You lost that ability to ask that question when I started doing it! Instead of talking to me, you talked around and over and under me. You and several other members, who did the same! Why do you confront me now? I will not post anything that attacks you directly! And I will not post anything that I see as a misinterpretation of others. Deal with it or...............
I have asked you before but not in a thread Pea can see. The discussion that took place is not about you, it is about the situation. But how come I lost that ability when you started doing it? Doesn't that mean that you were never interested in a discussion?
And "deal with it or..." what?
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
You lost that ability to ask that question when I started doing it! Instead of talking to me, you talked around and over and under me. You and several other members, who did the same! Why do you confront me now? I will not post anything that attacks you directly! And I will not post anything that I see as a misinterpretation of others. Deal with it or...............
I have asked you before but not in a thread Pea can see. The discussion that took place is not about you, it is about the situation. But how come I lost that ability when you started doing it? Doesn't that mean that you were never interested in a discussion?
And "deal with it or..." what?
Jesus, you are dumb. You question MY reasoning? :hahaha:
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From Pea
"Don't talk to my mate Steve like he's horrid dog shit, please. He's been nothing but cordial with you over the years. He deserves more from you than a fucking harsh order to stop.
'I know you're Pea's friend, but could you kindly not post on his behalf? He's no longer a member here for reasons most of the membership are aware of. No hard feelings'
He deserves that kind of response, not some drainbow shit."
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I value my friendship with Pea, and I value certain others opinions. You can be a reasonable person, Ari, at times. But, you seem to have devolved into a paranoid individual. And I am not taking Al's side in your continuing battle with him, that is between you and him. And do you remember when I semi-jokingly mentioned BANNING calandale when I had those powers long ago....you mentioned that I was free to do so......when he nearly blew up the forum with his spamming and trolling... Where were you when callaway slandered me as "suppressing free speech"......??? I won't mention anything else that I helped you with....should I say what? Believe me, push me and I will....Lucifer wanted me to stay friends with you as she felt you needed friends! Her quote exactly.
I see this as harmless, Pea knows that I will not post anything without vetting it!
I give up with this place, you made mcmanslag a semi-perm admin...that says a lot to me! I will not ask for my member ship to be deleted..that is your call.
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I value my friendship with Pea, and I value certain others opinions. You can be a reasonable person, Ari, at times. But, you seem to have devolved into a paranoid individual. And I am not taking Al's side in your continuing battle with him, that is between you and him. And do you remember when I semi-jokingly mentioned BANNING calandale when I had those powers long ago....you mentioned that I was free to do so......when he nearly blew up the forum with his spamming and trolling... Where were you when callaway slandered me as "suppressing free speech"......??? I won't mention anything else that I helped you with....should I say what? Believe me, push me and I will....Lucifer wanted me to stay friends with you as she felt you needed friends! Her quote exactly.
I see this as harmless, Pea knows that I will not post anything without vetting it!
I give up with this place, you made mcmanslag a semi-perm admin...that says a lot to me! I will not ask for my member ship to be deleted..that is your call.
For what it is worth Ozy, I think you are a man of integrity and I would prefer to see you around. I enjoyed seeing you back.
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That's Pea talking, isn't it?
Would you mind NOT acting as Pea's messenger boy, Ozy? Pea isn't a member here.
You lost that ability to ask that question when I started doing it! Instead of talking to me, you talked around and over and under me. You and several other members, who did the same! Why do you confront me now? I will not post anything that attacks you directly! And I will not post anything that I see as a misinterpretation of others. Deal with it or...............
I have asked you before but not in a thread Pea can see. The discussion that took place is not about you, it is about the situation. But how come I lost that ability when you started doing it? Doesn't that mean that you were never interested in a discussion?
And "deal with it or..." what?
Everything I read was you never addressing me DIRECTLY! deal with it or BAN me! How's that for simplicity of speech.
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From the Pea!
"Absolutely fine. I asked him for an apology for the shit he pulled. If he does it, I will leave the place alone. Simple."
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From Pea "So... Ari acknowledges me now? How amusing.
If he wants me to stop Ozy from posting on my behalf, I expect him to do one gesture for me:
I want him to apologise for wasting British taxpayers' money for bring in the police over something he doesn't like yet he has no issue having my personal shit on his little playpen called IntensitySquared.
If he apologises for being a dick in the past, I'll accept it and leave this place alone.
He won't be big enough to do it though. Instead, he'll just trying to censor me as usual.
Glad to know I still upset him."
Which means that all of Pea's promises about behaving or respecting my decision meant nothing. He has not changed, after all.
Just so we are all clear about what Pea is talking about here, people: Pea posted my picture, name and address on Youtube, as well as suggesting I was a paedophile. As a result, I contacted the British police to make him stop. Only after the police visited his parents did he actually stop. He also promised the police he would not bother me again.
This, apparently, is no longer true, so here is what will happen now: Al and Ozy, you will now both stop posting on Pea's behalf. Pea is not allowed to join this board again, either directly or indirectly, and I will not pay for the privilege to be stalked. Also, I will, of course, not apologise for stopping him four years ago.
And Steve, since we are speaking honestly here: I thought I was asking you politely. Pea seems to think I am not. Nevertheless, I know you are his friend and I respect that. I am not, however, and surely you are aware of this fact; I tend to avoid people who stalk me, and I had hoped you would respect that. Your choice, though.
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Never knew all that; thanks for explaining.
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From Pea "So... Ari acknowledges me now? How amusing.
If he wants me to stop Ozy from posting on my behalf, I expect him to do one gesture for me:
I want him to apologise for wasting British taxpayers' money for bring in the police over something he doesn't like yet he has no issue having my personal shit on his little playpen called IntensitySquared.
If he apologises for being a dick in the past, I'll accept it and leave this place alone.
He won't be big enough to do it though. Instead, he'll just trying to censor me as usual.
Glad to know I still upset him."
Which means that all of Pea's promises about behaving or respecting my decision meant nothing. He has not changed, after all.
Just so we are all clear about what Pea is talking about here, people: Pea posted my picture, name and address on Youtube, as well as suggesting I was a paedophile. As a result, I contacted the British police to make him stop. Only after the police visited his parents did he actually stop. He also promised the police he would not bother me again.
This, apparently, is no longer true, so here is what will happen now: Al and Ozy, you will now both stop posting on Pea's behalf. Pea is not allowed to join this board again, either directly or indirectly, and I will not pay for the privilege to be stalked. Also, I will, of course, not apologise for stopping him four years ago.
And Steve, since we are speaking honestly here: I thought I was asking you politely. Pea seems to think I am not. Nevertheless, I know you are his friend and I respect that. I am not, however, and surely you are aware of this fact; I tend to avoid people who stalk me, and I had hoped you would respect that. Your choice, though.
Moderation creep. Next are we banned from referencing Pea? You going to "remove references of Pea?" From there how wide would you like to cast the net? Just curious? I did call this moderation move.
BTW I like this "I will not pay for the privilege" line you trot out. It sounds a lot nicer than, "Its my forum I can do what i want on here and you will submit to mah authoritah!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I see that. It was disappointing to first see that side to him and I have seen it over the last 5 months. I am not bothered by it any more. Sorry you were exposed to it Ozy. You deserve better than that. People on here, mostly to a person do not deserve that.
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Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I see that. It was disappointing to first see that side to him and I have seen it over the last 5 months. I am not bothered by it any more. Sorry you were exposed to it Ozy. You deserve better than that. People on here, mostly to a person do not deserve that.
The point is moot, he has blocked Pea from reading anything here. His forum, his rules! C'est la vie!
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From Pea "So... Ari acknowledges me now? How amusing.
If he wants me to stop Ozy from posting on my behalf, I expect him to do one gesture for me:
I want him to apologise for wasting British taxpayers' money for bring in the police over something he doesn't like yet he has no issue having my personal shit on his little playpen called IntensitySquared.
If he apologises for being a dick in the past, I'll accept it and leave this place alone.
He won't be big enough to do it though. Instead, he'll just trying to censor me as usual.
Glad to know I still upset him."
Which means that all of Pea's promises about behaving or respecting my decision meant nothing. He has not changed, after all.
Just so we are all clear about what Pea is talking about here, people: Pea posted my picture, name and address on Youtube, as well as suggesting I was a paedophile. As a result, I contacted the British police to make him stop. Only after the police visited his parents did he actually stop. He also promised the police he would not bother me again.
This, apparently, is no longer true, so here is what will happen now: Al and Ozy, you will now both stop posting on Pea's behalf. Pea is not allowed to join this board again, either directly or indirectly, and I will not pay for the privilege to be stalked. Also, I will, of course, not apologise for stopping him four years ago.
And Steve, since we are speaking honestly here: I thought I was asking you politely. Pea seems to think I am not. Nevertheless, I know you are his friend and I respect that. I am not, however, and surely you are aware of this fact; I tend to avoid people who stalk me, and I had hoped you would respect that. Your choice, though.
Moderation creep. Next are we banned from referencing Pea? You going to "remove references of Pea?" From there how wide would you like to cast the net? Just curious? I did call this moderation move.
You have a single choice here, Al, and that is to stop posting Pea's messages.
Is this in some way not clear to you? Do you think I somehow enjoyed having Pea post my picture and address on Youtube while proclaiming I was a paedophile? Did you think I would shrug it off and think "hell, as long as there is free speech at I2"? As long as you think it's OK? Or something else? Free speech is a responsibility, too, and I am done with you or anybody else doing this for shits and giggles.
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I see that. It was disappointing to first see that side to him and I have seen it over the last 5 months. I am not bothered by it any more. Sorry you were exposed to it Ozy. You deserve better than that. People on here, mostly to a person do not deserve that.
The point is moot, he has blocked Pea from reading anything here. His forum, his rules! C'est la vie!
I enjoyed seeing Pea on here but I was fine him posting or being a member or not. Never bothered me much either way.
I do not like the way he has treated you and that is the difference. I also am not enamoured with his moderation creep and his steadfast refusal to take ANY responsibility for anything stupid and/or shitty that he does. But as you say C'est la vie
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From Pea "So... Ari acknowledges me now? How amusing.
If he wants me to stop Ozy from posting on my behalf, I expect him to do one gesture for me:
I want him to apologise for wasting British taxpayers' money for bring in the police over something he doesn't like yet he has no issue having my personal shit on his little playpen called IntensitySquared.
If he apologises for being a dick in the past, I'll accept it and leave this place alone.
He won't be big enough to do it though. Instead, he'll just trying to censor me as usual.
Glad to know I still upset him."
Which means that all of Pea's promises about behaving or respecting my decision meant nothing. He has not changed, after all.
Just so we are all clear about what Pea is talking about here, people: Pea posted my picture, name and address on Youtube, as well as suggesting I was a paedophile. As a result, I contacted the British police to make him stop. Only after the police visited his parents did he actually stop. He also promised the police he would not bother me again.
This, apparently, is no longer true, so here is what will happen now: Al and Ozy, you will now both stop posting on Pea's behalf. Pea is not allowed to join this board again, either directly or indirectly, and I will not pay for the privilege to be stalked. Also, I will, of course, not apologise for stopping him four years ago.
And Steve, since we are speaking honestly here: I thought I was asking you politely. Pea seems to think I am not. Nevertheless, I know you are his friend and I respect that. I am not, however, and surely you are aware of this fact; I tend to avoid people who stalk me, and I had hoped you would respect that. Your choice, though.
Moderation creep. Next are we banned from referencing Pea? You going to "remove references of Pea?" From there how wide would you like to cast the net? Just curious? I did call this moderation move.
You have a single choice here, Al, and that is to stop posting Pea's messages.
Is this in some way not clear to you? Do you think I somehow enjoyed having Pea post my picture and address on Youtube while proclaiming I was a paedophile? Did you think I would shrug it off and think "hell, as long as there is free speech at I2"? As long as you think it's OK? Or something else? Free speech is a responsibility, too, and I am done with you or anybody else doing this for shits and giggles.
Bark all you want Odeon. I do not much care what you enjoy or don't. Haven't for a while. You have said your bit. I will take it under advisement that is is another new law to censor the forum.
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Given what I have seen and read dating back about a week ago as I tried to better understand this controversy, while also taking into account multiple personal messages from other members, I would not consider it unreasonable to ban him. I know you would prefer not going down such a path given the patience with enduring some of the clearly blatant despicable personal attacks that have been posted, one person should not be allowed to ruin the entire experience for the majority of the membership.
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In other words, the whole site is set to members only viewing now?
Odeon, are you going to leave it that way?
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Given what I have seen and read dating back about a week ago as I tried to better understand this controversy, while also taking into account multiple personal messages from other members, I would not consider it unreasonable to ban him. I know you would prefer not going down such a path given the patience with enduring some of the clearly blatant despicable personal attacks that have been posted, one person should not be allowed to ruin the entire experience for the majority of the membership.
Trigger go fuck yourself. Fuck off with your moral virtue signalling bullshit
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In other words, the whole site is set to members only viewing now?
Odeon, are you going to leave it that way?
Circling the wagons. I2 used to be more than this.
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
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In other words, the whole site is set to members only viewing now?
Odeon, are you going to leave it that way?
See your PMs.
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he has blocked Pea from reading anything here.
(http://www.writingwinters.com/wp-content/uploads/Grumpy_cat_good.jpg)
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
You have been talking over and around Ozy and he has said this and you respect him? I don't think so.
I have not monitored anything. I do not know the video concerned but naturally heard of the ban. I think the video sounds appalling and the reason he made it even worse. I think your moderation creep is stupid and your inability to deal with things and to not accept your part in the problems you cause or contribute to irresponsible.
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Well, maybe you should have talked to me, then. You never contacted me, never asked me about anything, you just cut me off.
I was not keeping anything "fresh", btw. I was mostly not thinking about any of it, until it all came back from a reasonably clear blue sky, here. So don't tell me how to feel or react and I won't tell you.
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::)
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Meaning what?
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Well, maybe you should have talked to me, then. You never contacted me, never asked me about anything, you just cut me off.
I was not keeping anything "fresh", btw. I was mostly not thinking about any of it, until it all came back from a reasonably clear blue sky, here. So don't tell me how to feel or react and I won't tell you.
There we have it.
You were doing the right thing. You caused no problems with anyone ever and had no hand in any problems or ill feeling and then .................. POW................ Everyone was so mean to you. :facepalm2:
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Don't throw this back on me, you know wtf I am talking about. You just choose to blame others. You've done your part and I have done mine....and this is now the end of any discussion between you and me.
Have a good life!
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Don't throw this back on me, you know wtf I am talking about. You just choose to blame others. You've done your part and I have done mine....and this is now the end of any discussion between you and me.
Have a good life!
You too.
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
Looks like you don't know your arse from your elbow.
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
I am friends with pea. And imho, the end has come, odeon has made his decree and let the fall out be his to deal with. As for the rest, everybody else has their big boys pants on and that is how it will be. As for me, not my monkeys, not my circus. My life is my own and I move on!
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
I am friends with pea. And imho, the end has come, odeon has made his decree and let the fall out be his to deal with. As for the rest, everybody else has their big boys pants on and that is how it will be. As for me, not my monkeys, not my circus. My life is my own and I move on!
Shame Ozy. I enjoyed seeing you around.
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Four years is indeed a long time and people can change but has he? So far he has during this current drama
Used the elders only sock to post
Made multiple attempts to register
Gotten you and others to post his messages
Made Vids about it
Stalked about the parts of the forum he can see
That doesn't look like much of a change.
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Sorry, Parts, but, I have been in contact with him as long as you! Anyway, I have accepted what has gone down and I will leave this subject for the historians to judge. Nobody has used me! End of discussion.
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
I am friends with pea. And imho, the end has come, odeon has made his decree and let the fall out be his to deal with. As for the rest, everybody else has their big boys pants on and that is how it will be. As for me, not my monkeys, not my circus. My life is my own and I move on!
If you do move on, then best wishes wherever you end up :plus:
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Stick around, rock hound.
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
I am friends with pea. And imho, the end has come, odeon has made his decree and let the fall out be his to deal with. As for the rest, everybody else has their big boys pants on and that is how it will be. As for me, not my monkeys, not my circus. My life is my own and I move on!
If you do move on, then best wishes wherever you end up :plus:
I'm not leaving here, unless ari wants me to or bans me. But, this site has lost it life. :trollskull:
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
I am friends with pea. And imho, the end has come, odeon has made his decree and let the fall out be his to deal with. As for the rest, everybody else has their big boys pants on and that is how it will be. As for me, not my monkeys, not my circus. My life is my own and I move on!
If you do move on, then best wishes wherever you end up :plus:
I'm not leaving here, unless ari wants me to or bans me. But, this site has lost it life. :trollskull:
Oh, I'm sorry :-[
I thought you meant you were leaving.
Glad to hear you're sticking around :2thumbsup:
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Looks like a lot of serious issues between Odeon, Rock Hound, and Pea. I have time for all of them, and hope there is some way they can resolve things.
Very sad to see Les doing everything he can to stir up trouble on the site. Seems like a nasty wannabe little demagogue. Trump would be proud :thumbdn:
I am friends with pea. And imho, the end has come, odeon has made his decree and let the fall out be his to deal with. As for the rest, everybody else has their big boys pants on and that is how it will be. As for me, not my monkeys, not my circus. My life is my own and I move on!
Shame Ozy. I enjoyed seeing you around.
Thanks, I'm not leaving in the true sense of the word.....just stepping back, the last few weeks as I told Pea have been fun, but, now I am spent, and out gunned by the powers that be. I'm too old for this fucking shit. If people want to judge me..they are free to do so.....just as long as they keep the fucking verdict to themselves! 8)
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Four years is indeed a long time and people can change but has he? So far he has during this current drama
Used the elders only sock to post
Made multiple attempts to register
Gotten you and others to post his messages
Made Vids about it
Stalked about the parts of the forum he can see
That doesn't look like much of a change.
I'm sorry that I lost your respect. I truly regret that. But, I did tell you that Pea was not that bad a person irl when we talked in the middle of Portsmouth NH. And the stuff I posted, imo, was not that bad.
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Four years is indeed a long time and people can change but has he? So far he has during this current drama
Used the elders only sock to post
Made multiple attempts to register
Gotten you and others to post his messages
Made Vids about it
Stalked about the parts of the forum he can see
That doesn't look like much of a change.
I'm sorry that I lost your respect. I truly regret that. But, I did tell you that Pea was not that bad a person irl when we talked in the middle of Portsmouth NH. And the stuff I posted, imo, was not that bad.
You have not lost it I just don't agree with you on this. The stuff you posted was not that bad it's more about him asking you to do it, to me that is an indicator that he hasn't changed all that much
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No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Four years is indeed a long time and people can change but has he? So far he has during this current drama
Used the elders only sock to post
Made multiple attempts to register
Gotten you and others to post his messages
Made Vids about it
Stalked about the parts of the forum he can see
That doesn't look like much of a change.
I am interested and curious, that whilst I acknowledge all of the above, and taking into account he has not seemed to change in your opinion, what would he have done to indicate a change worthy of posting? I mean to say if you say "Well he was banned so should not have done any of those things", fine BUT that has got nothing to do with whether he has changed at all has it?
What you are actually saying is he was banned from ever coming here and we would under no circumstances eve had him back in any form regardless of whether he has changed and his posting in any form is proof of his never having changed.
It reminds me of "If she floats she is a witch and if she sinks and drowns she is innocent".
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
I do not know why you are seeking out my opinion on the matter. Certainly you dismiss everything I say and can't imagine why you'd humour me.
I think that many years ago Pea was upset with you and your treatment of a friend of his.
His reaction was something I understand but do not agree with. (though from what I understand, he did not call you a paedophile but rather some other guy Chris Gillon did...apparently. Not a big point of contention in the scheme of things, but I understand it).
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
This is kind of my point with things. Yes Pea behaved badly and sure I have never said police turning up was not warranted. But don't for a moment say you were a victim or that this situation came out of nowhere.
There was a good reason Pea was angry What was that reason?
Who was that friend of Pea's that was upset, that prompted this situation with you and he?
What did YOU do to make that friend of his upset?
Who are the ACTUAL victims I refer to?
Take some fucking responsibility Odeon. Have a bit of decency and accountability for your poor choices and how that affects things and people around you..
-
That creepy message
That was pretty creepy. He's glad to know he still upset you, seems clear enough though.
-
No, it has always been your choice! Like the time I sent melatonin to you for your son to circumvent your countries laws. Lucifer would be disappointed in you. I tried, but, now it seems the ban hammer from your paranoia has made you split hairs and it will not make me lose any sleep over it! If you truly respect me, just let it go and trust that I will not allow Pea to do anything bad. You opened this Pandora's box.......you have the power to close it.
And as I said, you, and several others talked around me! For several weeks.......if you said "stop posting Pea's stuff" in the beginning.....I would have done so. But, you dithered and now that push has come to shove, you are now all holy and righteous, just like callaway and mcmanslag. Your choice, as it always has been!
I respect you, but I don't respect Pea. I was reluctant to bring it up because I do respect you, but also, it took me a while to sort my thoughts on this. Believe it or not, I am not spending my time thinking primarily about either I2, you, Al or Pea. I come here to unwind, as do most people, not to have a very unpleasant memory from years ago thrown in my face, and at first, I didn't want to even think about it.
Yet all some can think of is fucking moderation and censorship and whatnot. It's all very nice when it's not about you lot, when it's still an abstract thing.
Well, apparently, you have blocked Pea from viewing the site in any way shape or form. Congratulations........enjoy your supremacy!
WWDD.......what would Dunc do?
Ask him. I have no idea.
But it's interesting to note how you two must have monitored the drama. Is this fun for you? Is this the kind of laugh he had four years ago on Youtube?
Four years ago on the internuts is an Epoch in normal time. All I'm going by is Lucifer's words to me when all this came down. I never monitored the drama...this was between "adults", times change, people change, I gave many people who threw me to wolves the benefit of the doubt, forgave them, and it has been a release and relief for me, especially when they accepted or when they didn't. You seem to be holding onto the "poison" and keeping your wounds fresh for your own reasons. Four years ago Pea was a different person...hell, he and I were still at each others throats....but, the bridge was still there and it's strong. I and my wife were able to help him when he had his stroke.....Pea reached out to me and I didn't kick him to the curb. There were other things that happened, but, we are friends. It's not fun for me, BUT, I will never throw a friend under the bus for convenience. It is not fun, but, doing the right thing and letting go of past shit is the right thing.
Four years is indeed a long time and people can change but has he? So far he has during this current drama
Used the elders only sock to post
Made multiple attempts to register
Gotten you and others to post his messages
Made Vids about it
Stalked about the parts of the forum he can see
That doesn't look like much of a change.
I'm sorry that I lost your respect. I truly regret that. But, I did tell you that Pea was not that bad a person irl when we talked in the middle of Portsmouth NH. And the stuff I posted, imo, was not that bad.
You have not lost it I just don't agree with you on this. The stuff you posted was not that bad it's more about him asking you to do it, to me that is an indicator that he hasn't changed all that much
We agree to disagree, you voiced at our irl meeting that "I was the most reasonable person on the forum", has that really changed? I feel that it has. He has changed, and would be a voice that could happen here, for a change of pace. Maybe I take seriously free speech more seriously than odeon does!
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Still need to work out why both these guys wanted us to stay in the EU. But this is a must see to understand who controls the EU and how it's controlled and how politicians of countries cannot do anything to change economic policies and it's pretty much irrelevant who's elected in any country in the EU.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WG-uEND74E
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As for talking to Pea, find him on Facebook.
I'm locked out of Facebook. :emosad:
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Still need to work out why both these guys wanted us to stay in the EU. But this is a must see to understand who controls the EU and how it's controlled and how politicians of countries cannot do anything to change economic policies and it's pretty much irrelevant who's elected in any country in the EU.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WG-uEND74E
Do they have a cliff-notes version of that??
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As for talking to Pea, find him on Facebook.
I'm locked out of Facebook. :emosad:
He's discarded FB for the time being. I've been communicating with him on Google chat. I believe he can be found on skype as well. The last time I saw him on FB, was after I gave Pyraxis his FB user name that he was using. I can't quite recall when exactly that was.
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As for talking to Pea, find him on Facebook.
I'm locked out of Facebook. :emosad:
He's discarded FB for the time being. I've been communicating with him on Google chat. I believe he can be found on skype as well. The last time I saw him on FB, was after I gave Pyraxis his FB user name that he was using. I can't quite recall when exactly that was.
FB is cracking down on people not using their full legal names. That's why I got locked out of my account.
AFAIK I'm the only person on earth with my name and have a very unique last name.
Being on FB is a danger for me because anyone can just do a google search and have my doxx in an instant.
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As for talking to Pea, find him on Facebook.
I'm locked out of Facebook. :emosad:
He's discarded FB for the time being. I've been communicating with him on Google chat. I believe he can be found on skype as well. The last time I saw him on FB, was after I gave Pyraxis his FB user name that he was using. I can't quite recall when exactly that was.
FB is cracking down on people not using their full legal names. That's why I got locked out of my account.
AFAIK I'm the only person on earth with my name and have a very unique last name.
Being on FB is a danger for me because anyone can just do a google search and have my doxx in an instant.
Pea wasn't the only person to use a different name on FB, we have a mutual friend who's been warned about not using his real name as well. I haven't seen him for awhile. Maybe suckerberg and his no fun minions did the same to him as they did to you.
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
I do not know why you are seeking out my opinion on the matter. Certainly you dismiss everything I say and can't imagine why you'd humour me.
I think that many years ago Pea was upset with you and your treatment of a friend of his.
His reaction was something I understand but do not agree with. (though from what I understand, he did not call you a paedophile but rather some other guy Chris Gillon did...apparently. Not a big point of contention in the scheme of things, but I understand it).
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
This is kind of my point with things. Yes Pea behaved badly and sure I have never said police turning up was not warranted. But don't for a moment say you were a victim or that this situation came out of nowhere.
There was a good reason Pea was angry What was that reason?
Who was that friend of Pea's that was upset, that prompted this situation with you and he?
What did YOU do to make that friend of his upset?
Who are the ACTUAL victims I refer to?
Take some fucking responsibility Odeon. Have a bit of decency and accountability for your poor choices and how that affects things and people around you..
I have, and you are wrong. The video was posted in 2012 and quite some time after Pea sought me out to reconcile our differences. At that point, I thought what was past was past because that was what *he* said. Then came the videos.
So don't you try to tell me who is guilty of what here. I know what happened, Pea knows what happened, and he readily admitted it when confronted by the police. You, on the other hand, do not. You don't have the faintest idea. You, as the simple troll you are, just want to fuel the flames.
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Pea was wise not to use his real name on FB. There is always somebody out there willing to use your real name. ::)
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
I do not know why you are seeking out my opinion on the matter. Certainly you dismiss everything I say and can't imagine why you'd humour me.
I think that many years ago Pea was upset with you and your treatment of a friend of his.
His reaction was something I understand but do not agree with. (though from what I understand, he did not call you a paedophile but rather some other guy Chris Gillon did...apparently. Not a big point of contention in the scheme of things, but I understand it).
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
This is kind of my point with things. Yes Pea behaved badly and sure I have never said police turning up was not warranted. But don't for a moment say you were a victim or that this situation came out of nowhere.
There was a good reason Pea was angry What was that reason?
Who was that friend of Pea's that was upset, that prompted this situation with you and he?
What did YOU do to make that friend of his upset?
Who are the ACTUAL victims I refer to?
Take some fucking responsibility Odeon. Have a bit of decency and accountability for your poor choices and how that affects things and people around you..
I have, and you are wrong. The video was posted in 2012 and quite some time after Pea sought me out to reconcile our differences. At that point, I thought what was past was past because that was what *he* said. Then came the videos.
So don't you try to tell me who is guilty of what here. I know what happened, Pea knows what happened, and he readily admitted it when confronted by the police. You, on the other hand, do not. You don't have the faintest idea. You, as the simple troll you are, just want to fuel the flames.
Bullshit Odeon.
You saying you are the victim is evidence of this. As I say there WERE at least two victims and neither of them are You. Neither are Pea either.
I am not going to name names but I am going to say that when shit happens you never acknowledge your part in things. It becomes "you were behaving fine" and were the "good guy" in the situation or the innocent bystander and then boom! bad stuff happened.
Life is not that easy. You believe things were reconciled? In your mind maybe. You believe you "dealt" with things appropriately in all situations? You believe past was past and should be moved on?
Your wants do not dictate other people's wants. Their experience of something is not your experience. Injuries that YOU caused to the victims in this situation were not something that you felt and thus YOUR ability to say "Its all better" is not something that extenuates outside of yourself.
Theory of mind stuff and YES I battle with it too. You HAVE to take accountability when you do and say stuff there is a consequence and it can permeate the knock on effect may even be a shitty video sent by an angry member or the ruination of a friendship or a heartbreak or a long lasting feud. As long as you are always ready to deny your accountability and consequence (direct or not ) in the effects of your actions, bad shit will happen. I mean lying, misrepresentation and showing hypocrisy will not help either, but taking no responsibility is a problem.
Reconciling and resolving things is never a perfect washing of hands but it may leave a scar rather than a perpetually festering wound.
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
I do not know why you are seeking out my opinion on the matter. Certainly you dismiss everything I say and can't imagine why you'd humour me.
I think that many years ago Pea was upset with you and your treatment of a friend of his.
His reaction was something I understand but do not agree with. (though from what I understand, he did not call you a paedophile but rather some other guy Chris Gillon did...apparently. Not a big point of contention in the scheme of things, but I understand it).
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
This is kind of my point with things. Yes Pea behaved badly and sure I have never said police turning up was not warranted. But don't for a moment say you were a victim or that this situation came out of nowhere.
There was a good reason Pea was angry What was that reason?
Who was that friend of Pea's that was upset, that prompted this situation with you and he?
What did YOU do to make that friend of his upset?
Who are the ACTUAL victims I refer to?
Take some fucking responsibility Odeon. Have a bit of decency and accountability for your poor choices and how that affects things and people around you..
I have, and you are wrong. The video was posted in 2012 and quite some time after Pea sought me out to reconcile our differences. At that point, I thought what was past was past because that was what *he* said. Then came the videos.
So don't you try to tell me who is guilty of what here. I know what happened, Pea knows what happened, and he readily admitted it when confronted by the police. You, on the other hand, do not. You don't have the faintest idea. You, as the simple troll you are, just want to fuel the flames.
Bullshit Odeon.
You saying you are the victim is evidence of this. As I say there WERE at least two victims and neither of them are You. Neither are Pea either.
I am not going to name names but I am going to say that when shit happens you never acknowledge your part in things. It becomes "you were behaving fine" and were the "good guy" in the situation or the innocent bystander and then boom! bad stuff happened.
Life is not that easy. You believe things were reconciled? In your mind maybe. You believe you "dealt" with things appropriately in all situations? You believe past was past and should be moved on?
Your wants do not dictate other people's wants. Their experience of something is not your experience. Injuries that YOU caused to the victims in this situation were not something that you felt and thus YOUR ability to say "Its all better" is not something that extenuates outside of yourself.
Theory of mind stuff and YES I battle with it too. You HAVE to take accountability when you do and say stuff there is a consequence and it can permeate the knock on effect may even be a shitty video sent by an angry member or the ruination of a friendship or a heartbreak or a long lasting feud. As long as you are always ready to deny your accountability and consequence (direct or not ) in the effects of your actions, bad shit will happen. I mean lying, misrepresentation and showing hypocrisy will not help either, but taking no responsibility is a problem.
Reconciling and resolving things is never a perfect washing of hands but it may leave a scar rather than a perpetually festering wound.
So in your world, Pea posting the videos after stating that things were OK between him and me is just as it should be? It explains a lot about both him and you. It also explains why he will never be a member here again.
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The comfort level has been restored...get over it! Jesus FUCKING Christ. just get over it already! ::)
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
I do not know why you are seeking out my opinion on the matter. Certainly you dismiss everything I say and can't imagine why you'd humour me.
I think that many years ago Pea was upset with you and your treatment of a friend of his.
His reaction was something I understand but do not agree with. (though from what I understand, he did not call you a paedophile but rather some other guy Chris Gillon did...apparently. Not a big point of contention in the scheme of things, but I understand it).
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
This is kind of my point with things. Yes Pea behaved badly and sure I have never said police turning up was not warranted. But don't for a moment say you were a victim or that this situation came out of nowhere.
There was a good reason Pea was angry What was that reason?
Who was that friend of Pea's that was upset, that prompted this situation with you and he?
What did YOU do to make that friend of his upset?
Who are the ACTUAL victims I refer to?
Take some fucking responsibility Odeon. Have a bit of decency and accountability for your poor choices and how that affects things and people around you..
I have, and you are wrong. The video was posted in 2012 and quite some time after Pea sought me out to reconcile our differences. At that point, I thought what was past was past because that was what *he* said. Then came the videos.
So don't you try to tell me who is guilty of what here. I know what happened, Pea knows what happened, and he readily admitted it when confronted by the police. You, on the other hand, do not. You don't have the faintest idea. You, as the simple troll you are, just want to fuel the flames.
Bullshit Odeon.
You saying you are the victim is evidence of this. As I say there WERE at least two victims and neither of them are You. Neither are Pea either.
I am not going to name names but I am going to say that when shit happens you never acknowledge your part in things. It becomes "you were behaving fine" and were the "good guy" in the situation or the innocent bystander and then boom! bad stuff happened.
Life is not that easy. You believe things were reconciled? In your mind maybe. You believe you "dealt" with things appropriately in all situations? You believe past was past and should be moved on?
Your wants do not dictate other people's wants. Their experience of something is not your experience. Injuries that YOU caused to the victims in this situation were not something that you felt and thus YOUR ability to say "Its all better" is not something that extenuates outside of yourself.
Theory of mind stuff and YES I battle with it too. You HAVE to take accountability when you do and say stuff there is a consequence and it can permeate the knock on effect may even be a shitty video sent by an angry member or the ruination of a friendship or a heartbreak or a long lasting feud. As long as you are always ready to deny your accountability and consequence (direct or not ) in the effects of your actions, bad shit will happen. I mean lying, misrepresentation and showing hypocrisy will not help either, but taking no responsibility is a problem.
Reconciling and resolving things is never a perfect washing of hands but it may leave a scar rather than a perpetually festering wound.
So in your world, Pea posting the videos after stating that things were OK between him and me is just as it should be? It explains a lot about both him and you. It also explains why he will never be a member here again.
Only an idiot would HONESTLY say that was what I was saying. Is that what you are Odeon? It is pretty clear what I was saying.
If you move on it does not mean others do. If you have caused an issue but are prepared to wash your hands of it, it does not follow that everyone is involved should too. You do not set the appropriate response here.
Again I NEVER and I will repeat this because your comprehension is off NEVER defended Pea for sending the video. I think it was bad form. I understand why he did and understand what was in his heart. I do not see him as a black-hearted villain in the piece but it was ill-advised and making a bad situation worse. But the key here is it was a bad situation. The originator of the situation was YOU.
When crap like the video or the fallout on the forum happens, you are not unrelated to the outcomes or consequence on the basis that you mentally absolve yourself from any responsibility or accountability to it. Do you get that? At all?
In fact the fact that these happen is indicative that YOU have NOT resolved things and that your irresponsibility is key to these things happening. Now you can after the fact claim to be a victim and you can censor me or send police on Pea and deal with the next inconvenience the same way but what you ought to do is address these things. Things do not happen out of a vacuum. Learn to deal with problems of your own making and join the human race.
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That creepy message you forwarded from him was proof enough, Al. Should I say sorry to *him* after he posted that shit on Youtube and I had the police pay him a visit to make him stop?
The police certainly didn't think I was overreacting. They never suggested I should apologise, either.
Is it your opinion in general that the victim should apologise if somebody you know from the internet said that the perpetrator really has changed?
I do not know why you are seeking out my opinion on the matter. Certainly you dismiss everything I say and can't imagine why you'd humour me.
I think that many years ago Pea was upset with you and your treatment of a friend of his.
His reaction was something I understand but do not agree with. (though from what I understand, he did not call you a paedophile but rather some other guy Chris Gillon did...apparently. Not a big point of contention in the scheme of things, but I understand it).
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
This is kind of my point with things. Yes Pea behaved badly and sure I have never said police turning up was not warranted. But don't for a moment say you were a victim or that this situation came out of nowhere.
There was a good reason Pea was angry What was that reason?
Who was that friend of Pea's that was upset, that prompted this situation with you and he?
What did YOU do to make that friend of his upset?
Who are the ACTUAL victims I refer to?
Take some fucking responsibility Odeon. Have a bit of decency and accountability for your poor choices and how that affects things and people around you..
I have, and you are wrong. The video was posted in 2012 and quite some time after Pea sought me out to reconcile our differences. At that point, I thought what was past was past because that was what *he* said. Then came the videos.
So don't you try to tell me who is guilty of what here. I know what happened, Pea knows what happened, and he readily admitted it when confronted by the police. You, on the other hand, do not. You don't have the faintest idea. You, as the simple troll you are, just want to fuel the flames.
Bullshit Odeon.
You saying you are the victim is evidence of this. As I say there WERE at least two victims and neither of them are You. Neither are Pea either.
I am not going to name names but I am going to say that when shit happens you never acknowledge your part in things. It becomes "you were behaving fine" and were the "good guy" in the situation or the innocent bystander and then boom! bad stuff happened.
Life is not that easy. You believe things were reconciled? In your mind maybe. You believe you "dealt" with things appropriately in all situations? You believe past was past and should be moved on?
Your wants do not dictate other people's wants. Their experience of something is not your experience. Injuries that YOU caused to the victims in this situation were not something that you felt and thus YOUR ability to say "Its all better" is not something that extenuates outside of yourself.
Theory of mind stuff and YES I battle with it too. You HAVE to take accountability when you do and say stuff there is a consequence and it can permeate the knock on effect may even be a shitty video sent by an angry member or the ruination of a friendship or a heartbreak or a long lasting feud. As long as you are always ready to deny your accountability and consequence (direct or not ) in the effects of your actions, bad shit will happen. I mean lying, misrepresentation and showing hypocrisy will not help either, but taking no responsibility is a problem.
Reconciling and resolving things is never a perfect washing of hands but it may leave a scar rather than a perpetually festering wound.
So in your world, Pea posting the videos after stating that things were OK between him and me is just as it should be? It explains a lot about both him and you. It also explains why he will never be a member here again.
Only an idiot would HONESTLY say that was what I was saying. Is that what you are Odeon? It is pretty clear what I was saying.
If you move on it does not mean others do. If you have caused an issue but are prepared to wash your hands of it, it does not follow that everyone is involved should too. You do not set the appropriate response here.
Again I NEVER and I will repeat this because your comprehension is off NEVER defended Pea for sending the video. I think it was bad form. I understand why he did and understand what was in his heart. I do not see him as a black-hearted villain in the piece but it was ill-advised and making a bad situation worse. But the key here is it was a bad situation. The originator of the situation was YOU.
When crap like the video or the fallout on the forum happens, you are not unrelated to the outcomes or consequence on the basis that you mentally absolve yourself from any responsibility or accountability to it. Do you get that? At all?
In fact the fact that these happen is indicative that YOU have NOT resolved things and that your irresponsibility is key to these things happening. Now you can after the fact claim to be a victim and you can censor me or send police on Pea and deal with the next inconvenience the same way but what you ought to do is address these things. Things do not happen out of a vacuum. Learn to deal with problems of your own making and join the human race.
::)
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Only an idiot would HONESTLY say that was what I was saying. Is that what you are Odeon? It is pretty clear what I was saying.
If you move on it does not mean others do. If you have caused an issue but are prepared to wash your hands of it, it does not follow that everyone is involved should too. You do not set the appropriate response here.
Again I NEVER and I will repeat this because your comprehension is off NEVER defended Pea for sending the video. I think it was bad form. I understand why he did and understand what was in his heart. I do not see him as a black-hearted villain in the piece but it was ill-advised and making a bad situation worse. But the key here is it was a bad situation. The originator of the situation was YOU.
When crap like the video or the fallout on the forum happens, you are not unrelated to the outcomes or consequence on the basis that you mentally absolve yourself from any responsibility or accountability to it. Do you get that? At all?
In fact the fact that these happen is indicative that YOU have NOT resolved things and that your irresponsibility is key to these things happening. Now you can after the fact claim to be a victim and you can censor me or send police on Pea and deal with the next inconvenience the same way but what you ought to do is address these things. Things do not happen out of a vacuum. Learn to deal with problems of your own making and join the human race.
You don't know what I have or have not done to resolve things. You have no idea. You were not involved then and you are not involved now. You don't know any of the facts. You are simply acting from butthurt and because you are pissed off at me, and so anything that will cast a shadow over me is what you will do.
But it ends now.
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Only an idiot would HONESTLY say that was what I was saying. Is that what you are Odeon? It is pretty clear what I was saying.
If you move on it does not mean others do. If you have caused an issue but are prepared to wash your hands of it, it does not follow that everyone is involved should too. You do not set the appropriate response here.
Again I NEVER and I will repeat this because your comprehension is off NEVER defended Pea for sending the video. I think it was bad form. I understand why he did and understand what was in his heart. I do not see him as a black-hearted villain in the piece but it was ill-advised and making a bad situation worse. But the key here is it was a bad situation. The originator of the situation was YOU.
When crap like the video or the fallout on the forum happens, you are not unrelated to the outcomes or consequence on the basis that you mentally absolve yourself from any responsibility or accountability to it. Do you get that? At all?
In fact the fact that these happen is indicative that YOU have NOT resolved things and that your irresponsibility is key to these things happening. Now you can after the fact claim to be a victim and you can censor me or send police on Pea and deal with the next inconvenience the same way but what you ought to do is address these things. Things do not happen out of a vacuum. Learn to deal with problems of your own making and join the human race.
You don't know what I have or have not done to resolve things. You have no idea. You were not involved then and you are not involved now. You don't know any of the facts. You are simply acting from butthurt and because you are pissed off at me, and so anything that will cast a shadow over me is what you will do.
But it ends now.
More control and censorship.
I am not butthurt but I am on your case and have been a while.
Here is one small thing to consider. You said you had resolved things with Pea and then suddenly this video, right. Here is the small; takeaway. You did not resolve it with him, you resolved it with you. YOU felt things were resolved. He didn't. There is a difference. Like I said before, theory of mind.
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:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:
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Still need to work out why both these guys wanted us to stay in the EU. But this is a must see to understand who controls the EU and how it's controlled and how politicians of countries cannot do anything to change economic policies and it's pretty much irrelevant who's elected in any country in the EU.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WG-uEND74E
Do they have a cliff-notes version of that??
I don't know.
It's great to just listen to that Greek guy though. A politician with principles. I listened to it in 2 sections while doing work. Easier like that.
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You said you had resolved things with Pea and then suddenly this video, right. Here is the small; takeaway. You did not resolve it with him, you resolved it with you. YOU felt things were resolved. He didn't. There is a difference. Like I said before, theory of mind.
What do you make of Pea saying it was resolved, then? To me it looks like Pea didn't know his own mind. Or he had an opinion and changed it later, like what happened here.
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You said you had resolved things with Pea and then suddenly this video, right. Here is the small; takeaway. You did not resolve it with him, you resolved it with you. YOU felt things were resolved. He didn't. There is a difference. Like I said before, theory of mind.
What do you make of Pea saying it was resolved, then? To me it looks like Pea didn't know his own mind. Or he had an opinion and changed it later, like what happened here.
When did he say it was resolved? Odeon took that understanding but Pea did not think it was. As I wasn't there, I cannot really vouch either way. I feel that his video points to the fact it was NOT resolved and that there was still some bad blood. Would you agree?
As for "like what happened here"? What has happened here? Someone gave him access to the sockpuppet account and his posts were alright. Then it was discovered it was Pea and he was blocked from the account due to a password change. He has posted text or videos for the community which seemed fine. His last post which had Odeon going off the Richter seemed to be a bit of a wind-up. Did it wind Odeon up? Yes it did.
So I do not understand the question and if there was any connections you are making between what caused Pea to get mad, the video, the use of the sockpuppet or the video and texts that Rockhound and occasionally I posted, I don't see it.
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He contacted me and said as much. Let bygones be bygones or something to that effect. We had a friendly exchange of messages over some time. At the time he also said that he had no interest in returning to I2.
Now, obviously you will again interpret it in your own way, without any facts whatsoever, but quite some time after the last exchange, he posted those three videos on Youtube.
Let this rest now.
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hey guys! (yes i'm back-ish again)
Dammit, i note this has turned into the "rake over the Peaguy affair" thread . I was really curious about Brexit opinions.
However,many thanks to Benjaminbreeg for posting the Chomsky vid. I shall check that out. I'm pretty damned sure Chomsky's opiinion about itt will worth listening to, unlike most.
For the record, I voted Exit myself . There are some very rational ( mostly left wing) reasons for leaving the EU, but they got totally buried under all the emotive crap from both sides. Luckily I'm old enough, and near enough the bottom of the social heap, to have seen exactly what the EU has done for Britain.
Sample argument: we badly need to turn the tide re. the unending privatisation of our industry. EU won't let us. Neither will the Tories, come to that. But now we're out of the EU, there might be some point in electing a socialist government, at last. We might even find left wing acting as if they'tre left wing, . That would an eye-opener for all those under-fifty kids. They've been brought up to believe that socialists are just tories who wear red ties.
-walkie
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He contacted me and said as much. Let bygones be bygones or something to that effect. We had a friendly exchange of messages over some time. At the time he also said that he had no interest in returning to I2.
Now, obviously you will again interpret it in your own way, without any facts whatsoever, but quite some time after the last exchange, he posted those three videos on Youtube.
Let this rest now.
I know that regardless of what he said, he chose to post an angry video with someone else in the video calling you a paedo. Now it does not need spindoctoring to know IF he was posting angry videos at you THEN he is not resolved as you took him to be. I do not much care how he communicated his resolution, the fact he posted the video was proof that things were not now OK with him. You were resolved and he was not.
It is fallout from your actions. A knock on effect. Bad outcomes. Both of you were in the wrong. Bad deeds from the both of you leading to bad ends. Neither of you were innocent victims in this.
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Sidenote on the Peaguy thing: IIRC, he had this thing about making offensive rants against members of I2, then posting the video on YouTube. He did one about me, once. He seemed to think we should all post offensive videos back to prove we're not a bunch of wussess.
Now , you can choose between a whole range of more-or-less equally valid opinions about that behaviour. My opinion is around the "not surprised he got banned" mark, but analysing what members did or didn't do to provoke Peaguy? meh.
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He contacted me and said as much. Let bygones be bygones or something to that effect. We had a friendly exchange of messages over some time. At the time he also said that he had no interest in returning to I2.
Now, obviously you will again interpret it in your own way, without any facts whatsoever, but quite some time after the last exchange, he posted those three videos on Youtube.
Let this rest now.
I know that regardless of what he said, he chose to post an angry video with someone else in the video calling you a paedo. Now it does not need spindoctoring to know IF he was posting angry videos at you THEN he is not resolved as you took him to be. I do not much care how he communicated his resolution, the fact he posted the video was proof that things were not now OK with him. You were resolved and he was not.
It is fallout from your actions. A knock on effect. Bad outcomes. Both of you were in the wrong. Bad deeds from the both of you leading to bad ends. Neither of you were innocent victims in this.
I know someone who wasn't and isn't, involved in this, though: you.
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Sidenote on the Peaguy thing: IIRC, he had this thing about making offensive rants against members of I2, then posting the video on YouTube. He did one about me, once. He seemed to think we should all post offensive videos back to prove we're not a bunch of wussess.
Now , you can choose between a whole range of more-or-less equally valid opinions about that behaviour. My opinion is around the "not surprised he got banned" mark, but analysing what members did or didn't do to provoke Peaguy? meh.
Don't let the current drama be a put-off.
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Sidenote on the Peaguy thing: IIRC, he had this thing about making offensive rants against members of I2, then posting the video on YouTube. He did one about me, once. He seemed to think we should all post offensive videos back to prove we're not a bunch of wussess.
Now , you can choose between a whole range of more-or-less equally valid opinions about that behaviour. My opinion is around the "not surprised he got banned" mark, but analysing what members did or didn't do to provoke Peaguy? meh.
Don't let the current drama be a put-off.
hey, Jack :) *waves* anyone who ever came here more than once was clearly not put-off by the current drama :D
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(http://www.writingwinters.com/wp-content/uploads/Grumpy_cat_good.jpg)
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Well, it turns out that Hitchens would've been pro-Brexit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMFGbw89sWI
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I was asked by Pea to post this: The views are not mine, however, this is in the interest of free speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SifV5fSng&feature=youtu.be
This video seems to be all about me :dunno: He's even calling me by my real name on a Youtube video :-\
It's sweet that he's "not criticized me for being lesbian," and "not really criticized me for being Scottish" :laugh:
Is he mentally ill?
Is it possible that Pea is FourAceDeal? Sorry to FAD if that''s not the case.
That is your insult default isn't it. No judging, but it is isn't it?
If you disagree with a position or don't like the person, you call them mentally ill or crazy or the like.
I suggest that it usually is more likely that people have different thoughts and perspectives than you and that neither make you right nor more sane for having different thoughts.
By all means though, keep throwing that out there.
Don't forget racist. She projects when butthurt.
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Why you keep bumping crap about people who aren't even here? :dunno:
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Found out I had not looked at this thread for six month.
:hyke:
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Why you keep bumping crap about people who aren't even here? :dunno:
Because they might return.
Butterflies!!!
Butterflies!!!
Butterflies!!!
:zoinks:
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Why you keep bumping crap about people who aren't even here? :dunno:
Why do you call everything crap?
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How the crap should I know? :zoinks:
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How the crap should I know? :zoinks:
Here ya go. :poop:
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:roses:
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Found out I had not looked at this thread for six month.
:hyke:
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
I keep thinking about rather large elephants, since I read this thread.
Can't keep my stupid head from wondering if the elephants in case would mind being referred to as "rather large".
:asthing: :asthing: :asthing:
So, not commenting on the content at all. Just got that rather large elephant in my head.
Getting elephants as a present more than once from one of my kids doesn't help. Life is getting packed with elephants.
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Found out I had not looked at this thread for six month.
:hyke:
As for who the victim in this is, there is a rather large elephant in the room if we are to talk about victims. Two of them intimately involved with you. Neither are you.
I keep thinking about rather large elephants, since I read this thread.
Can't keep my stupid head from wondering if the elephants in case would mind being referred to as "rather large".
:asthing: :asthing: :asthing:
So, not commenting on the content at all. Just got that rather large elephant in my head.
Getting elephants as a present more than once from one of my kids doesn't help. Life is getting packed with elephants.
The rather small ones have the advantage of the elephant of surprise. :zoinks:
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:brick:
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:brick: :sheep:
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And Theresa May lost. ;D
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Not really, she voted for us to remain. She's a fraud. The only people losing are the taxpayers as that fraud didn't trigger article 50 in her first day of office.
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Oh, don't worry about the taxpayers. They always lose.
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Not if we actually leave the EU and single market like we voted for.
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Ah, you mean like when they promised that the millions going to the EU would be redirected to the NHS? :rofl:
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Ah, you mean like when they promised that the millions going to the EU would be redirected to the NHS? :rofl:
The Prime Minister said voting leave was what ISIS wanted and the remain side said there'd be a recession. But you only focus on one side. Not sure why you just made some irrelevant point and didn't address mine.
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Actually you didn't vote to leave the single market. An easy mistake to make, I know.
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Yes we did, they're just playing an Animal Farm trick of thinking people are too stupid to remember. Amazing how you just parrot exactly what comes from corrupt politicians and corporate media.
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Yes we did, they're just playing an Animal Farm trick of thinking people are too stupid to remember. Amazing how you just parrot exactly what comes from corrupt politicians and corporate media.
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/secondary/448598.jpg)
I guess it's just one of your alternative facts. :zoinks:
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Yes we did, they're just playing an Animal Farm trick of thinking people are too stupid to remember. Amazing how you just parrot exactly what comes from corrupt politicians and corporate media.
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/secondary/448598.jpg)
I guess it's just one of your alternative facts. :zoinks:
There was discussion at the beginning of the referendum campaign about a complex vote which would have involved asking whether we'd stay in the single market etc but Cameron made it clear that it was an in or out vote. The single market is entwined with being in the EU. Cameron also made it clear that if we voted to leave we would be leaving the single market. George Osborne also made this clear. During the months of arguing the remain side were warning us that we shouldn't vote to leave because of the damage leaving the single market would do to our economy etc.
I hope I've simplified that enough for you to understand :eyelash:
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Which were their way of warning for the possible consequences. The referendum, as most referendums, was not legally binding and did not include anything beyond remaining or leaving the EU. You should note that the single market has non-EU members, too.
Amusingly enough, Theresa May et al thought they would get to define what it actually meant without a vote in the Parliament.
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No, it was their was of using propaganda to try and make people vote a certain way. It didn't work and the propaganda has become even more hysterical. As I said, it was made clear that we were voting to leave the EU and single market. Now you're making irrelevant points and changing the subject.
You should be proud of your hero. She's intentionally dithered around to delay the process and made sure there's a vote. Cameron should have triggered article 50 immediately after the referendum, instead he ran away crying. Parliament passed the question over to the people after a unanimous vote and the result has given them a mandate to trigger article 50, vote or no vote. I'm actually glad there's going to be a vote cause if the MP or Lords vote against it people will just wake up even more to what we're up against.
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She's not my hero, she's a spineless cunt. I guess you have issues with reading comprehension.
You also don't have any clue about your country's legislation and the way it works, do you?
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She's definitely your hero. Yeah, everyone who disagrees with you has a reading comprehension, is bigoted or mentally ill, never you is it. There was no need at all to go to court, Cameron should have triggered article 50 immediately, or to be proper he could have called on parliament to confirm the decision and then triggered it. The truth is, they only prepared for one outcome because they never saw this coming and were/are desperate to stop it. After all the dithering and slithering around by your hero/s we are just in the same place as we could have been last June, just with a load more time and money wasted.
Also, there probably should be an investigation into the Supreme Court judges as 5/6 of them were pro EU and 2 of them made statements before saying that EU law should override UK law.
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You definitely have issues with reading comprehension. :yawn:
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OK, so you don't know what you're talking about. You can admit when you're wrong you know. But then again I see your dilemma :zoinks:
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OK, so you don't know what you're talking about. You can admit when you're wrong you know. But then again I see your dilemma :zoinks:
As I said in that other thread, you're not very bright. You also have a poor understanding of how legislation in your country works. It must be hard for you, wanting so much but given so little.
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OK, so you don't know what you're talking about. You can admit when you're wrong you know. But then again I see your dilemma :zoinks:
[/quote
As I said in that other thread, you're not very bright. You also have a poor understanding of how legislation in your country works. It must be hard for you, wanting so much but given so little.
Got your quoting a bit mixed up? Bit flustered are we? Your heroes are going down bitch :hahaha:
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Not sure if that irony was intentional.
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It probably wasn't.
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:orly:
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It was funny, regardless.
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Well, the initial Brexit deal has failed in Parliament. :dunno:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/what-next-for-brexit-three-main-scenarios/ar-BBSilgl?ocid=spartanntp
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Fried in clarified butter, ooh yeah.
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Properly burnt.
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(https://pics.me.me/thumb_bbc-politicsbbcpolitics-15h-exit-theresa-may-ponders-fourth-news-politics-47112028.png)
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Properly burnt.
Hey, a reported 20% in the opinion polls sounds alright by me. I'd vote for them if I was a Swede.
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It'll happen eventually.
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Properly burnt.
Hey, a reported 20% in the opinion polls sounds alright by me. I'd vote for them if I was a Swede.
I'm not surprised.
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I'm not surprised.
What?
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I'm not surprised.
What?
Those 20%. I was assuming you'd vote for the Swedish Democrats if you were a Swede.
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I would vote SD. I voted UKIP and was a member for seven years. In here so can't vote for the Brexit Party.
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Which was my point. SD and UKIP are two sides of the same basic problem.
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My point is we need to be ourselves. Same for the Swedes. You don't want loads of unintegrated asylum seekers in Sweden. Respect the local culture or piss off. Sleep with your own if you won't let us sleep with yours.
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You haven't had a local culture since before 1066. Grow up.
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You haven't had a local culture since before 1066. Grow up.
We've had immigration largely by consent before 2004 apart from Muslims and some of the Caribbeans. Many of the Poles have gone home.
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::sigh::
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::sigh::
Many of the EU Poles don't see Britain as home. They came, worked for some years and went. The earlier ones will stay.
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Odeon doesn't get what you are saying. To him all culture is interchangeable and not and should not be specific to a people.
I get what you are saying though. It is one thing i think is critically important. If you move to a host country you NEED to submit to their social mores and culture.
Be respectful and do not try to force your cultural ideas there. Your cultural leanings are trumped by theirs.
You certainly do not start demanding things are changed to suit you.
If i moved to Thailand i would have to accept insulting the Royal Family is a jailable offence. If i did not believe that, tough. I would not post crap secretly, or have quiet dosrespectful conversations about it with other expats or ask that this law be changed to protect me and other Aussies.
If i moved there, i would also try to learn their language and what things integrate me there and what would make me objectionable. I would seem to offend no one and be the least trouble.
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Al, I've only spent a few days in Chiang Mai. It is a nice part of the world. I lived in Bangers for a couple of years with my family, and my daughter was born there. I love Bangkok. Chiang Mai is nicer in a lot of ways, quieter and not as hot.
It's pretty easy to get along in Thailand, the people are generally very tolerant unless you really go out of your way to be a dickhead. Unfortunately a lot of expats and tourists do exactly that. I found expats in Thailand generally to be less obnoxious than expats in Jakarta, but it really is a low bar.
More than once I have seen tourists who have been walking around all day take off their shoes and put their feet up. This is one of the most offensive things you can do in Thailand. Never show the bottom of your feet, and especially do not point them towards anyone. Raising your voice is also generally offensive in Asia, as is showing any outward sign of anger. Money must be respected because it has the king's image on it. Don't drop money and step on it to stop it rolling or blowing away, and don't deliberately damage or burn money. Never touch the top of someone's head. Riding a motorbike or getting a motorbike taxi in Thailand is extremely dangerous, I wouldn't do it. Defensive driving isn't really a thing.
Some expats spend a lot of money to have what they consider an adequate lifestyle in Thailand. Others find that they adapt to the way of life and spend less than they expected to. I remember going shopping in Bangkok with my Australian friend who still lives there, he was going to buy some Australian beef for a stir fry. It was something like 4 times the price of the less tender local beef. I convinced him to buy the local beef and then I taught him how to cook it so that it wasn't as tough as an old shoe. In my opinion the best food in Thailand is also the cheapest.
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Odeon doesn't get what you are saying. To him all culture is interchangeable and not and should not be specific to a people.
They never talk of Pakistan or Somalia not having a separate culture. They only have something against prosperous liberal Western democracies. It's an anti-Western ideology that those who mean us harm must find hilarious.
I get what you are saying though. It is one thing i think is critically important. If you move to a host country you NEED to submit to their social mores and culture.
Learning the local language does not automatically make you an honoured citizen. A lot of this is about integrating with the host culture. So, no crime, no getting the local women pregnant, no backtalk against the host culture.
When I go on holiday to Portugal I wouldn't sleep with the locals. I want to be respected and not a nuisance. I could probably get laid, but it's abuse to the Portuguese.
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Slow cook it.
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:popcorn:
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When I go on holiday to Portugal I wouldn't sleep with the locals. I want to be respected and not a nuisance. I could probably get laid, but it's abuse to the Portuguese.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
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When I go on holiday to Portugal I wouldn't sleep with the locals. I want to be respected and not a nuisance. I could probably get laid, but it's abuse to the Portuguese.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
In Thailand you'd be sleeping with people that know.
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If I lived in Thailand I'd be celibate. Too many of the girls have a chang noi.
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If I lived in Thailand I'd be celibate. Too many of the girls have a chang noi.
What?
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Boris is waiting for the EU to blink. They won't.
the UK is sooo fucked.
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Macron told Boris that altering the deal wasn't going to happen. Did anyone, including Boris, think otherwise?
The world's gone mad and now we'll have to put our trust in a few tiny little lights in the darkness. Such as the NZ Prime Minister and maybe Angela Merkel. Macron, while no fool, won't quite cut it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE
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Waiting for the court to decide.
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Brexit has passed, Britain has taken back its sovereignty from Merkel's 4th Reich. :hahaha:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46393399
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It's all going to hell, which they will realise before long. It's quite sad, actually. I've been talking to friends over there and they all see their world shrinking. It's not much of a problem if you're a closet nazi and hell-bent on driving out the bloody foreigners, because you're already living off of other people, but Britain ceased to be an empire long ago and if that's all you've got, then it's going to be a hell of an awakening.
Living in a bubble will always be a struggle when the bubble bursts.
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It's not much of a problem if you're a closet nazi and hell-bent on driving out the bloody foreigners,
(https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/189/715/161.jpg)
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It's OK, scrap. You can't be expected to have any actual knowledge in the subject.
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If that's all you've got, then it's obvious I know more about the issues surrounding Brexit than you do.
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It is obvious, in hindsight, that the single European currency was an epically stupid idea. With disastrous outcomes for countries like Greece and Spain.
The UK did well to keep its own currency.
I would still say that the EU was a good idea BUT it did seem to overreach its original purpose, in some ways, over the past couple of decades. Right wing policies such as free movement of labour were dressed up as progressive, left wing policies, and have served to fan the flames of right wing populism.
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It is obvious, in hindsight, that the single European currency was an epically stupid idea. With disastrous outcomes for countries like Greece and Spain.
The UK did well to keep its own currency.
I would still say that the EU was a good idea BUT it did seem to overreach its original purpose, in some ways, over the past couple of decades. Right wing policies such as free movement of labour were dressed up as progressive, left wing policies, and have served to fan the flames of right wing populism.
OK, what have you done to the real MOSW?? Did you hack his account??
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If that's all you've got, then it's obvious I know more about the issues surrounding Brexit than you do.
And maybe I know more than you! I have been following this deeply and it seems that nationalistic politics in the UK won out. But, the union in Europe seems to be strengthening due the the growing nationalistic/conservative movement in the UK led by trumpolini light. Scotland and Wales and Ireland may yet have something to say. We shall see.
I tend to defer to the people who ACTUALLY live in the EU, rather than someone who loves trumpolini. And yes, I saw your comment about Greta.........and that was what I expected from you, deplorable. So go drive your truck with the anti-obama exhaust pipe and pollute to your hearts content. I will be watching you with a more jaundiced eye here and elsewhere.
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It is obvious, in hindsight, that the single European currency was an epically stupid idea. With disastrous outcomes for countries like Greece and Spain.
The UK did well to keep its own currency.
I would still say that the EU was a good idea BUT it did seem to overreach its original purpose, in some ways, over the past couple of decades. Right wing policies such as free movement of labour were dressed up as progressive, left wing policies, and have served to fan the flames of right wing populism.
Right wing nationalism does seem to be rising all over. I weep for humanity! :-[
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Indeed. Brexit and Trump are two sides of the same thing.
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MY gut feeling is that this is going to bite the UK in the ass at some point. The UK/boris johnson are tied to trumpolini as he drags us down with record setting deficits. The EU has apparently become more unified in reaction to this.
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It's most people's gut feeling. The EU is not going to give them the same advantages as it would to a member state. Why would they?
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The EU is surely starting to regret those open borders? Especially the countries with land borders with Italy.
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The EU is surely starting to regret those open borders? Especially the countries with land borders with Italy.
I very much doubt it would make much of a difference in the long run. The advantages of open borders outweigh the problems, IMHO.
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The EU is surely starting to regret those open borders? Especially the countries with land borders with Italy.
I very much doubt it would make much of a difference in the long run. The advantages of open borders outweigh the problems, IMHO.
In the long run, no. The virus will eventually spread and there may or may not be a vaccine some time in 2021. In the meantime the spread of the virus could be accelerated by people attempting to flee major outbreaks.
What are the advantages of open borders? Particularly for a working class Brit, for example?
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The EU is surely starting to regret those open borders? Especially the countries with land borders with Italy.
I very much doubt it would make much of a difference in the long run. The advantages of open borders outweigh the problems, IMHO.
In the long run, no. The virus will eventually spread and there may or may not be a vaccine some time in 2021. In the meantime the spread of the virus could be accelerated by people attempting to flee major outbreaks.
What are the advantages of open borders? Particularly for a working class Brit, for example?
Sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who isn't impressed by the coronavirus. Husband started flapping about it. Told him influenza kills over fifty thousand people in the US every year, and asked if we can be concerned with his immediate health risks. :laugh:
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The mortality rate from a typical flu is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu in 1918/19 estimates are as high as 20% (it was probably less). For the Coronavirus the mortality rate is between about 1% and 4%.
Assuming that you come in at around 2%, and about the same number of people catch it as would catch the flu in a typical flu season, you are still talking about a million deaths. Mostly older people and people with compromised health already. But that's still a lot of dead people.
I think the level of concern shown by the WHO is appropriate and the actions taken in China were heavy-handed but necessary.
The impact on the world economy will potentially be a lot greater than the deaths.
My main concern is that the supermarkets are completely out of toilet paper already.
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Meh. I care because WolFish was immunocompromised and people in situations like his have reason to fear. I'm not afraid for myself.
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What's the Coronavirus got to do with toilet paper? There are no cases of the virus in Western Australia yet all the toilet paper here is rapidly disappearing.
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^I've done some reading and now I know why.
We have stacks of toilet paper at home anyway.
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Here it's bleach, disinfecting wipes, masks, are all flying off the shelves at walmart. Even Carla has remarked that masks, and anti-biotic hand disinfectants are almost non-existent.
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What are the advantages of open borders? Particularly for a working class Brit, for example?
Eligible for work all over Europe, for one. Choose to settle anywhere in the EU. Holidays anywhere. Etc.
For a small island with 70 million people I'd say it's a no-brainer, but I guess they disagreed. Oh well. They've got blue passports now, at least.
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The mortality rate from a typical flu is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu in 1918/19 estimates are as high as 20% (it was probably less). For the Coronavirus the mortality rate is between about 1% and 4%.
Less than 1%, actually, according to scientists. The thinking is that most cases are very mild and don't get reported.
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The mortality rate from a typical flu is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu in 1918/19 estimates are as high as 20% (it was probably less). For the Coronavirus the mortality rate is between about 1% and 4%.
Less than 1%, actually, according to scientists. The thinking is that most cases are very mild and don't get reported.
That is also the claim that Trump made, that the real mortality rate was less than 1%, and he copped a lot of criticism for it. Even though it is probably a fairly good guesstimate.
There is a range of views, some people are panicking obviously. A lot of people seem convinced that it is nothing to be concerned about and that the precautions being suggested by the WHO, quarantines, etc. are entirely unnecessary. I tend to think that the truth is somewhere in between.
China did extremely well to shut down the cities at the epicenter of the outbreak, blocking tunnels with rubble to prevent people getting out and spreading the virus. Effectively shutting down almost the entire economy in those cities. What concerns me is not the mortality rate (obviously much lower than SARS, Ebola and so on) but how contagious this one appears to be. How quickly it can spread to a large portion of the population. And the economic consequences of people not going out and spending money, of schools and buildings being "shut down", of international travel being seriously curtailed. And hospitals (which are often inadequate to cope with normal patient loads even in wealthy countries) and medical personnel being overwhelmed by the sheer volume of cases.
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http://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/02/04/trump-calls-for-us-to-leave-eu-too/
The insanity is spreading. Now Trump is planning to leave the EU.
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The mortality rate from a typical flu is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu in 1918/19 estimates are as high as 20% (it was probably less). For the Coronavirus the mortality rate is between about 1% and 4%.
Less than 1%, actually, according to scientists. The thinking is that most cases are very mild and don't get reported.
That is also the claim that Trump made, that the real mortality rate was less than 1%, and he copped a lot of criticism for it. Even though it is probably a fairly good guesstimate.
There is a range of views, some people are panicking obviously. A lot of people seem convinced that it is nothing to be concerned about and that the precautions being suggested by the WHO, quarantines, etc. are entirely unnecessary. I tend to think that the truth is somewhere in between.
China did extremely well to shut down the cities at the epicenter of the outbreak, blocking tunnels with rubble to prevent people getting out and spreading the virus. Effectively shutting down almost the entire economy in those cities. What concerns me is not the mortality rate (obviously much lower than SARS, Ebola and so on) but how contagious this one appears to be. How quickly it can spread to a large portion of the population. And the economic consequences of people not going out and spending money, of schools and buildings being "shut down", of international travel being seriously curtailed. And hospitals (which are often inadequate to cope with normal patient loads even in wealthy countries) and medical personnel being overwhelmed by the sheer volume of cases.
Agreed. The contagiousness is what worries me, too.
The less than 1% mortality rate was what an epidemiologist suggested in the news the other day.
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http://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/02/04/trump-calls-for-us-to-leave-eu-too/
The insanity is spreading. Now Trump is planning to leave the EU.
Nothing surprises me when it comes to Trump. The context made me suspicious, though. :laugh:
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The less than 1% mortality is based on the health workers who were obviously monitored for the virus. Despite the hazmat suits and masks and precautions about 1700 health workers caught the virus and mortality was under 1%. So for healthy adults of working age, that's probably a good guide. Similar in South Korea where the virus has spread scarily fast from maybe one person, and authorities have been very open about the stats.
Where that gets a bit wobbly is that mortality among older people and already unwell people is likely to be much higher than 1%, dragging the average up. Also if medical supplies run out, hospital beds and equipment are overwhelmed, or in countries like Iran as we've already seen, it may also be much higher than 1%.
Overall it's likely to be like a very bad flu season, the biggest and scariest impact will be to the economy.
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The mortality rate from a typical flu is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu in 1918/19 estimates are as high as 20% (it was probably less). For the Coronavirus the mortality rate is between about 1% and 4%.
Assuming that you come in at around 2%, and about the same number of people catch it as would catch the flu in a typical flu season, you are still talking about a million deaths. Mostly older people and people with compromised health already. But that's still a lot of dead people.
I think the level of concern shown by the WHO is appropriate and the actions taken in China were heavy-handed but necessary.
The impact on the world economy will potentially be a lot greater than the deaths.
My main concern is that the supermarkets are completely out of toilet paper already.
Fortunately, the gopher has enough toilet paper to save us all.
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Meh. I care because WolFish was immunocompromised and people in situations like his have reason to fear. I'm not afraid for myself.
Husband is also immunodeficient. Though there are some things he's not willing to do or forfeit for the sake of fear, so the precautions he already takes are what he should be doing, or is willing to do.
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The mortality rate from a typical flu is around 0.1%. For the Spanish Flu in 1918/19 estimates are as high as 20% (it was probably less). For the Coronavirus the mortality rate is between about 1% and 4%.
Less than 1%, actually, according to scientists. The thinking is that most cases are very mild and don't get reported.
With "regular" flu the mild cases don't get reported either.
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Would worry if it would hit my mum or my youngest.
But no other behaviour than in flu season here. Washing of hands and sneezing and coughing in my elbow. Was my habit already.
That toilet paper crisis in Australia amazes and amuses me. Did notice a "one per customer only" sign at stack of TP on offer for the first time in my life. Apparently they thing the rush is a world wide thing.
Local supermarket had stocked up on rub on hand sanitizer. I don't see them selling much. Wouldn't help. It's a virus, not bacteria.
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The less than 1% mortality is based on the health workers who were obviously monitored for the virus. Despite the hazmat suits and masks and precautions about 1700 health workers caught the virus and mortality was under 1%. So for healthy adults of working age, that's probably a good guide. Similar in South Korea where the virus has spread scarily fast from maybe one person, and authorities have been very open about the stats.
Where that gets a bit wobbly is that mortality among older people and already unwell people is likely to be much higher than 1%, dragging the average up. Also if medical supplies run out, hospital beds and equipment are overwhelmed, or in countries like Iran as we've already seen, it may also be much higher than 1%.
Overall it's likely to be like a very bad flu season, the biggest and scariest impact will be to the economy.
Mortality rates in the so-called risk groups will be a lot higher, of course. It's interesting to note that in the media, different experts will say very different things. Just read an opinion piece by an expert who swears by the three point something rate and calls on the government to take drastic measures to contain this thing, and then stumbled on another expert stating that most cases are probably very mild and thus remain unnoticed.
The scariest impact will certainly be to the economy.
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Local supermarket had stocked up on rub on hand sanitizer. I don't see them selling much. Wouldn't help. It's a virus, not bacteria.
It's not useless but carefully washing your hands is a lot better.
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What are the advantages of open borders? Particularly for a working class Brit, for example?
Eligible for work all over Europe, for one. Choose to settle anywhere in the EU. Holidays anywhere. Etc.
For a small island with 70 million people I'd say it's a no-brainer, but I guess they disagreed. Oh well. They've got blue passports now, at least.
From what I could tell, those arrangements in the EU tended to push down wages and conditions and opportunities for British workers in Britain, and didn't create a lot of overseas opportunities. If you were a shelf packer in Tesco, for example, the prospect of getting a shelf-packing job in Poland or Paris probably wasn't as big of a plus as it would be for some professionals.
I'm not British and I haven't spent much time there over the past 20 years, so my opinion is probably well out-of-date. And I don't know if I would be pro-brexit or anti-brexit today if I had stayed there. But I know how the ready availability of cheap and exploitable foreign workers negatively impact on opportunities and wages and conditions in Australia (despite all the neoliberal bullshit we hear to the contrary), and if it is anything like that in the UK then I'd be strongly pro-Brexit.
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The low-wage EU citizens in the UK handled jobs the Brits wouldn't. Now that there is a shortage of them, Prince Charles has been encouraging furloughed Brits to do their share.
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The low-wage EU citizens in the UK handled jobs the Brits wouldn't. Now that there is a shortage of them, Prince Charles has been encouraging furloughed Brits to do their share.
I always figured that was bollocks, the idea that the working class is too lazy or too proud to do certain jobs. Such claims by employers and right wing politicians need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Look at the agenda they are trying to push, and why.
People make the same sort of claims here in Australia. The reality is that Australians don't get hired for those jobs because they expect to be paid a proper wage and have reasonable conditions. Whereas foreign workers can be underpaid, pushed to do unpaid overtime, and they don't have the option to complain. Of course employers won't say "I don't want to hire Aussies because I'd have to pay them properly, I want to hire immigrants so I can exploit them and underpay them". So employers claim that Aussies don't want to do the jobs, and it's a claim that is difficult to prove or disprove.
Even in IT the same thing happens, we have huge numbers of IT workers unemployed in Australia or driving taxis or working as Uber drivers. The last company I worked for, they would put a new job ad up and within 24 hours they'd have 200 applications. But employers still claim that there is a skill shortage and they need to hire foreigners or bring in workers on temporary visas from the development centre in Bangalore (or some other foreign city). The skill shortage claims are pure bullshit. Most similar claims by employers in every industry are also bullshit.
The reason you never see an Aussie working in a Thai or Chinese restaurant in Sydney, or cleaning offices at night time, is because there are plenty of illegal immigrants and "students" who will do the job for $10 an hour or less (minimum wage is about $24 an hour for a casual worker). Of course you can pay an Aussie $10 an hour, but 6 months later he or she can take you to court and you'll have to provide a pile of backpay at the minimum wage and you will be up for costs and fines as well.
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The low-wage EU citizens in the UK handled jobs the Brits wouldn't. Now that there is a shortage of them, Prince Charles has been encouraging furloughed Brits to do their share.
I always figured that was bollocks, the idea that the working class is too lazy or too proud to do certain jobs. Such claims by employers and right wing politicians need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Look at the agenda they are trying to push, and why.
People make the same sort of claims here in Australia. The reality is that Australians don't get hired for those jobs because they expect to be paid a proper wage and have reasonable conditions. Whereas foreign workers can be underpaid, pushed to do unpaid overtime, and they don't have the option to complain. Of course employers won't say "I don't want to hire Aussies because I'd have to pay them properly, I want to hire immigrants so I can exploit them and underpay them". So employers claim that Aussies don't want to do the jobs, and it's a claim that is difficult to prove or disprove.
Even in IT the same thing happens, we have huge numbers of IT workers unemployed in Australia or driving taxis or working as Uber drivers. The last company I worked for, they would put a new job ad up and within 24 hours they'd have 200 applications. But employers still claim that there is a skill shortage and they need to hire foreigners or bring in workers on temporary visas from the development centre in Bangalore (or some other foreign city). The skill shortage claims are pure bullshit. Most similar claims by employers in every industry are also bullshit.
The reason you never see an Aussie working in a Thai or Chinese restaurant in Sydney, or cleaning offices at night time, is because there are plenty of illegal immigrants and "students" who will do the job for $10 an hour or less (minimum wage is about $24 an hour for a casual worker). Of course you can pay an Aussie $10 an hour, but 6 months later he or she can take you to court and you'll have to provide a pile of backpay at the minimum wage and you will be up for costs and fines as well.
Actually there's plenty of evidence to the contrary in this case.
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I hit Post a bit too soon. Here's The Guardian describing farm worker shortages: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/11/tonnes-of-crops-left-to-rot-as-farms-struggle-to-recruit-eu-workers
Mind, this is before the virus. I expect the situation to be worse now.
And it's not that I support the low-wage model in any way. It's just something that's fairly well known and discussed the last several years.
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I admit I'm coming to it as an outsider, but that Guardian article has one anecdote from one farmer who offered "higher bonuses for good pickers and accommodations with free wifi" and was still unable to recruit enough workers. There's nothing about farmers systemically offering living wages and minimal overtime, or the conditions MOSW is saying local workers expect.
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The low-wage EU citizens in the UK handled jobs the Brits wouldn't. Now that there is a shortage of them, Prince Charles has been encouraging furloughed Brits to do their share.
I always figured that was bollocks, the idea that the working class is too lazy or too proud to do certain jobs. Such claims by employers and right wing politicians need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Look at the agenda they are trying to push, and why.
People make the same sort of claims here in Australia. The reality is that Australians don't get hired for those jobs because they expect to be paid a proper wage and have reasonable conditions. Whereas foreign workers can be underpaid, pushed to do unpaid overtime, and they don't have the option to complain. Of course employers won't say "I don't want to hire Aussies because I'd have to pay them properly, I want to hire immigrants so I can exploit them and underpay them". So employers claim that Aussies don't want to do the jobs, and it's a claim that is difficult to prove or disprove.
Even in IT the same thing happens, we have huge numbers of IT workers unemployed in Australia or driving taxis or working as Uber drivers. The last company I worked for, they would put a new job ad up and within 24 hours they'd have 200 applications. But employers still claim that there is a skill shortage and they need to hire foreigners or bring in workers on temporary visas from the development centre in Bangalore (or some other foreign city). The skill shortage claims are pure bullshit. Most similar claims by employers in every industry are also bullshit.
The reason you never see an Aussie working in a Thai or Chinese restaurant in Sydney, or cleaning offices at night time, is because there are plenty of illegal immigrants and "students" who will do the job for $10 an hour or less (minimum wage is about $24 an hour for a casual worker). Of course you can pay an Aussie $10 an hour, but 6 months later he or she can take you to court and you'll have to provide a pile of backpay at the minimum wage and you will be up for costs and fines as well.
Well said, Mo! You're quite right.
I have actually worked at some of those jobs that Brits are " too lazy to do"' (eg potato picking and warehouse work) so has my son, plus an increasing number of other people that I know (as more and more people are made redundant from their proper jobs) . Have to say that casual work and zero-hour contracts are the killer here. If it's hard to live on minmum wage, it's downright impossible to live on randomly varying hours (most often much less than " full time") at that exact same low hourly rate but that's what many, many people are forced to try to do.
Our minimumum wage seems to considerably lower than the Aussie minimum wage (currently 8.70 GBP per hour) but then it might be that the cost of living is higher in Oz? Or it might be that we;ve slid even further downhill than you guys. Certtainly, its pretty rare for Brits to take former employers to court, we;ve been too thoroughly beaten down; and ruthless exploitation has become the norm.
The idea that the immigrants are- or should be- grateful for the chance to share our "privelged lifestyle"" is ludicrous. I've found that immigrant workmates last no longer, in any given workplace than the rest of us, because they equally find that they can't earn enough to pay their rent. And also they tend to become a lot more angry at being worked like slaves and treated like dirt than the native Brits do. So rage-quitting by recent immigrants is common. That's because that's not what they're used to and not what they expect from Britain. People tend to forget that a lot of these immigrants are middle-class folk who once had comfortable lifesyles and expected at least the same in Britain. Also, even quite a number the poor ones that i've worked beside have told me that they could be poor with a lot more dignity back home (eg in the Middle East or Africa)
Once -upon-a-time, Brits could always quit and live on unemployment benefits if they found wages and working conitions unacceptable. But that no longer works as a get -out. You'll be made to jump through so many hoops to prove that you're willing to work ( up to including participating in workfare schemes) that "looking for work"becomes a full-time job; a very depressing and unrewarding full-time job that only pays a mere fraction of minimum wage (unless you have a number of dependants) and which gets withdrawn at the drop of a hat, often for no good reason, or no reason at all . Frankly, I know a number of currently unemployed people, but I don't know anyone who'd claim unemployment benefits (or "jobseeker's Allowance "as the call it now) , not if they've tried that once before (in the past decade or so) . Instead, they build up debt , if they can, or lean on family for support, or work for a pittance in the Black economy and if all else fails, slide onto the street. All of this would have a dramatic effect on the unemployment stats (that is, masking the true scale of the problem) as well as fuelling an ever-downward spiral in pay and working conditions.
Almost nobody, irrespective of country of origin, lasts long in some jobs such as Deliveroo (who get round minimim wage requirements by making it "piece work"essentially) or Agency care work (because the agencies only pay for time spent working, not time spent travelling, and the latter often takes up the majority of the worker's time) or...well, virtually all of the unskilled labouring jobs, But they can go on and on exploiting people, because there are always more workers who are willing to give it a whirl, an endless supply of them indeed.
As for farm work, that's seasonal, isn't it? so it couldn't possibly serve as a family's main source of income. What's more, the farmers have ways of getting out of paying minimum wage (the old "piece work" trick. Plus they usually pay cash . ) Back in the eighties, they were picking truckloads of (mostly) redundant factory workers , who were desperate to supplement their meagre dole, from pick-up points in nearby cities, to help with the harvest. Then the DWP started sending investigators into the fields to catch and prosecute these "benefits frauds". The government showd no interst in prosecuting the farmers , of course. I don't know how the farmers have managed since then, because in my experience , its no use declaring the pittance you get, not if you're on benefits, because you only get to keep a fiver per week of your earnings, and you get your dole money stopped for several weeks whilst they re-calculate it, which is, of course disastrous for anyone who's living hand-to -mouth ( I actually tried doing it the honest way, dumb autie that i am) . What's more, if you're working really hard in the fields, that fiver is easily swallowed up by the extra food you'll consume, so net gain for the worker is zero.
So, yeah, since that Government crackdown, no half-way sensible unemployed British person will take on farm work. We all became too lazy all of a sudden :LOL: . And the Government have cracked down ever-harder on benefits claimaints, since then . i don't know how the farmers are coping since, but i've read reports to the effect that Southern farmers (or some of them at least) are pulling in young migrants who have family homes to go back to , putting them up in purpose built dormitories and actually paying them decent wages. That reminds me of when British students would swarm over to France, during the summer holidays to work in the vineyards (I don't know if that still happens?) . And yeah, that would work. Of course that would work. And I don't recall anybody saying that was necessary because the French were too lazy to work their own vineyards.
Ofc , I've no personal experience (of every corner of Industry, but it's not difficult to guess that similar stories apply to just about everyrthing.
I've had nothing to say about EU migrants, above, because , in my own experience, EU migrants -especially Poles. tend to have some kind of big advantage over native brits, immigrants from outside the EU, everybody else. I'm not at all sure I understand how that works, maybe a number of social and economic factors come into play, but it's definitely not because Poles work harder. They're hiuman beings , same as everybody else, with the same range of human character traits. Some of them are lazy as fuck, but they get away with it. I've seen the lazy ones get offerered promotions and other plum jobs, in preference to other, more suitable, canditates just the same as the hardworking Poles. Also., they tend to get offered those rare and precious permanent, full-time jobs that almost nobody else can get. It's just as if they're an elite class, like the British Raj in India. As a consequence, many of our black and asian immigrants really hate the Poles, more than their white British counterparts do . It doesn't help that most of those immigrants are multi-lingual, proud of speaking perfect English , and expect to gain an advantage by that. To then be passed over, in favour of a Pole who can't speak English at all (as has happened in some cases ) is especially galling for them.
I should add, iI certainly don't hate the Poles. I hate the system that creates such inequalities, that blames the poor for the mess they're in, and that continues to pull more and more people into this sinking boat. A small country of 70 million? It was a small country of 60 million just five minutes ago and already badly overpopulated. Even the Tories have startied to think that we have more workers here than they can use . But it's not merely a case of not enough work to go round ; we don't (and can't) grow enough near food to go round , and are highly dependant on imprts . In the event of war , or some other crisis, disrupting food supplies, then we shan't be getting leaner and actually healthier'on our meagre rations like we did during World War II (when the UK poulation was less than 50 million, and we had more farmland) we'll be starving 'to death in droves. I feel it's pretty mad to live here already , given that likelihood hanging over us. '(But then, I also feel that it's mad to live on the slopes of an active volcano, or on top the San Andreas fault line, and note that doesnt deter people)
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PS, I wrote all that before Odeon's latest post. And well, well, well, turns it's all about that old "Brits are too lazy to do farmwork" chestnut. Fancy that! :LOL: and the problem very much centres round those dormitory-building Southern farmers...who , basically, need to build dormitorities nowadays. because near;y all the working -class folk who used to do the farmwork down south have been pushed up north by rising housing costs. The peasants are gone, and the villages are exceedingly sleepy, with many of the cottages serving as second homes for wealthy Londoners.
Well if they can't get enough furloughed workers with this offer
People can take on farm work while still receiving 80% of their salaries through the government’s furlough scheme.
they could surely get loads of "jobseekers"coming forwards on a similar terms : That is they could keep their benefits, including (most importantly) housing benefit, not the usual "We'll strip you of all but a fiver" deal.
it wou;dn't even be very costly to keep paying the benefit. We're talking £58.90 per week JSA for under-25's , and not an awful lot more for the older folk. Much less than your average fuloughed worker gets. Its not even that they'd miss it very much, if the government snatched it away. But once peope have qualified for benefits , they're scared to let it go for what is bound to be temporary work. It's too gruelling having to wait for weeks on end to get the benefits back on tap. And loss of housing benefit could too easily mean homelessness ofc.
It's a shame that they don't get a fair chance to challenge the assumption that the jobless are out of work because they don't want to work.
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Thanks Walkie, great responses, all so true.
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I know Odeon is decent and progressive, not some neoliberal stooge. But there is a lot of misinformation out there.
It's not the fault of the farmers either. The buyers, the big wholesalers and retailers, of their produce screw the price down to a point where it is impossible to hire and train local workers on a decent wage.
The status quo is shit. You can't expect Brits to vote for the status quo. Brexit was voted for because it was a vote against the status quo.
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Here's The Guardian describing farm worker shortages: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/11/tonnes-of-crops-left-to-rot-as-farms-struggle-to-recruit-eu-workers
We get similar articles in the Australia mainstream media. Invariably written from the perspective of the producers and hirers, because they are the ones who hire the lobby groups to push their agenda. Who can hire someone to effectively write the articles and stories for the media.
I was a bit disappointed that there are no comments. On similar articles in Australia you get the REAL story from reading the comments. From unemployed people who heard about the farm work available and got on a bus or hitched a ride to where the work supposedly was. The claims that there is good work available that Aussies don't want almost invariably turn out to be bullshit, and these are people living precarious lives who can barely afford to eat and have a roof over their heads. Getting on a bus and travelling 1,000 km or whatever to some work that may or may not be there for a couple of weeks is not a fucking great option.
Why would a working class Brit vote for a status quo that continues to fuck them over and dishonestly portray them as lazy and useless?
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https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/apr/20/just-not-true-were-too-lazy-for-farm-work-say-frustrated-uk-applicants
A more recent article, slightly more balanced.
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Here's The Guardian describing farm worker shortages: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/11/tonnes-of-crops-left-to-rot-as-farms-struggle-to-recruit-eu-workers
We get similar articles in the Australia mainstream media. Invariably written from the perspective of the producers and hirers, because they are the ones who hire the lobby groups to push their agenda. Who can hire someone to effectively write the articles and stories for the media.
I was a bit disappointed that there are no comments. On similar articles in Australia you get the REAL story from reading the comments. From unemployed people who heard about the farm work available and got on a bus or hitched a ride to where the work supposedly was. The claims that there is good work available that Aussies don't want almost invariably turn out to be bullshit, and these are people living precarious lives who can barely afford to eat and have a roof over their heads. Getting on a bus and travelling 1,000 km or whatever to some work that may or may not be there for a couple of weeks is not a fucking great option.
Why would a working class Brit vote for a status quo that continues to fuck them over and dishonestly portray them as lazy and useless?
FFS , Mo, you're gonna make me look like secretary of MOSW Fanclub, cos I keep wanting to plus almost all your recent posts. Well, I'm gonna wait and and see if it'll let me give you another one for this, nonetheless.
It's just so nice when somebody gets it. :)
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Hospitality is a field where claims are often made that Australians won't take the jobs because they are too lazy yada yada yada. No actual evidence is presented other than employers making claims and lobbying for special privileges to hire 19-year-old German backpacker girls with big tits. Because, you know, Australians don't want to work, they'd rather sit at home and live in dire poverty and be stigmatised.
It's pure bullshit.
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I don't think it's only the UK, either. I believe our minimum wage is higher than the UK's but a lot of the farm jobs around here are frowned upon and left to low-wage EU seasonal migrants.
Most years there's a black market, too, and the government is not doing enough.
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Odeon, what do you mean by "farm jobs around here are frowned upon"? Do you know anyone who has tried to make a living out of doing casual low-skilled farm work? How did it go for them? Or are you basing that off spurious claims by the farming industry and articles in the media that only tell one side of the story?
Sweden doesn't have a standard minimum wage, it is more industry specific. I don't know a lot of specifics, but I understand that workers' rights are generally pretty good in the Nordic countries.
When I was in the UK 20 odd years ago the cost of living was ridiculously high compared to Australia and the minimum wage was lower. I remember going into an off-licence in Southend (Essex) to buy some beer one night, there was a young English lady and a 30-ish year old English chap (of Indian descent) working there. They heard my accent and they started asking me stuff, they were really friendly. The bloke told me that he had some friends living in Australia and they told him that at the end of the week they always had some money leftover after they paid for food and rent and other essentials.... I said "yeah, everything is so expensive here in England, I can't figure out how people here can survive on 300 or 400 quid a week". And they kind of stopped being friendly very abruptly, it seemed really weird. Then as I was walking home I realized that 300 or 400 quid a week was probably twice as much as they were making.
These days I hear that the cost of living, especially here in Sydney, is a lot higher than most of the UK.
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Odeon, what do you mean by "farm jobs around here are frowned upon"? Do you know anyone who has tried to make a living out of doing casual low-skilled farm work? How did it go for them? Or are you basing that off spurious claims by the farming industry and articles in the media that only tell one side of the story?
In the past I've known people who tried to make a living out of the seasonal jobs and pretty much failed, yes, but also, there's a lot of talk in the media when that season arrives, every year. As far as I can determine, it's not one-sided. There's been articles and letters to the editor, plus I used to work for the Swedish Federation of Farmers as a consultant and picked up info while there.
So I'd say not spurious claims but a fair description of the state of affairs.
Sweden doesn't have a standard minimum wage, it is more industry specific. I don't know a lot of specifics, but I understand that workers' rights are generally pretty good in the Nordic countries.
You're right - the unions have negotiated minimum wages for their members. My bad. It's one of the reasons why the low-wage EU migrants handle many of those jobs, because they tend not to be members of any unions.
I know that unions have tried to stop the practice, but the workers rights in this sector are a grey area.
When I was in the UK 20 odd years ago the cost of living was ridiculously high compared to Australia and the minimum wage was lower. I remember going into an off-licence in Southend (Essex) to buy some beer one night, there was a young English lady and a 30-ish year old English chap (of Indian descent) working there. They heard my accent and they started asking me stuff, they were really friendly. The bloke told me that he had some friends living in Australia and they told him that at the end of the week they always had some money leftover after they paid for food and rent and other essentials.... I said "yeah, everything is so expensive here in England, I can't figure out how people here can survive on 300 or 400 quid a week". And they kind of stopped being friendly very abruptly, it seemed really weird. Then as I was walking home I realized that 300 or 400 quid a week was probably twice as much as they were making.
These days I hear that the cost of living, especially here in Sydney, is a lot higher than most of the UK.
The cost of living varies a lot around here. In the north, it's a lot cheaper to live and that's where many of those low-wage seasonal jobs happen.
Which leads me to a related matter: quite a few of those jobs are difficult to access for the unemployed here - the jobs are way up in the north but the people live in the south. Sweden is a big country.
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The cost of living varies a lot around here. In the north, it's a lot cheaper to live and that's where many of those low-wage seasonal jobs happen.
Which leads me to a related matter: quite a few of those jobs are difficult to access for the unemployed here - the jobs are way up in the north but the people live in the south. Sweden is a big country.
That's kinda backwards. Here it's much cheaper to live in the North than the south, same as you. But for that same reason, the North is horribly overpopulated, and work is scarce; wheras the South is much less densely populated (London aside) . There's always low-paid work to be had in L ondon and Kent but the poor Northerners can neither afford to live down South, nor commute. Wages for the service industry , farm work etc. don't even come close to meeting the cost of living down there.
Our Government have made matters worse with the tenants "right to buy" social housing. This has resulted in most of the social housing (especially down South, ofc) ending up in the hands of private landlords and unaffordable to low-paid workers. They also made matters worse by introducing a benefits cap and various other punitive "welfare reforms" which have forced yet more poor tenants out of London . When justifying such reforms, the Government consistently forget to explain that the vast majority of welfare recipents are either retired or else working on a very low wage, often in London's service industries. So Southerners think they're only punishing the "lazy" jobless when they vote on favour of such measures, whereas they're actually pushing out their own servants, then grumbling that Brits "don't want to work" when they see the effect of it.
Seems weird that the poorer Swedes live at the expesnive end of the country. Obviously, things must be very different in Sweden,
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PS, it occurs to me that this would also enhance the Southerners prejudice agains native Brits, when combined with the fact that immigrants tend to get priority for the little bit of Social housing that's left, and could therefore cling to their foothold in London more easily. The low-paid workers in London would therefore be predominately immigrant , I guess. And the remaining poor whites would be predominately disabled people (who also get priority for social housing) or pensioners (shielded from almost all the cuts) and therefore seldom seen to be working. Add on the fact that most folk seem to think that anybody who's seen to put one foot in front of another isn't really disabled (but rather one of theose benefits frauds that they read about in the Daily Mail) and you're gonna get a thoroughly distorted picture.
Haven't l;ooked up the stats, but i do recall being amazed by the etnic mix of the Grenfell Tower survivors. It very much looked as if poor white folk are a tiny minority, on that showing. And that poverty really might be the result of racial discrimation. Can't really blame Londoners for thinking as much. But if you come up North, where most of the underpriveged are living, you get a much more accurate picture. You can see plenty of white Brits )along with everybody else, ofc) working their bollocks off for Deliveroo etc in an increasingly vain attempt to make ends meet.
Most Northerners have zero repect for the Southerner's badly-informed, deeply prejudiced opinions. But figuring out exactly how they come to be so badly informed is tricky. I'm still far from sure that I've got the whole picture.
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Odeon, what do you mean by "farm jobs around here are frowned upon"? Do you know anyone who has tried to make a living out of doing casual low-skilled farm work? How did it go for them? Or are you basing that off spurious claims by the farming industry and articles in the media that only tell one side of the story?
In the past I've known people who tried to make a living out of the seasonal jobs and pretty much failed, yes, but also, there's a lot of talk in the media when that season arrives, every year. As far as I can determine, it's not one-sided. There's been articles and letters to the editor, plus I used to work for the Swedish Federation of Farmers as a consultant and picked up info while there.
So I'd say not spurious claims but a fair description of the state of affairs.
Predictable that they'd fail. I've known one or two people who made it work for them by doing bar work in the evening and farm work in the daytime. Exhausting in the Summer, but at least they had something to tide them over the Winter. But you need your pub, home and farm to be very close together for that to work.
I wish the media wouldn't keep presenting these issues as if farm labour was something people do for a basic living, and not a handy way for poor families to supplement their income, in the event that they happen to live near a farm; which latter had been, traditionally, the case. A lot of harvesting work used to be done by working class "housewives", way back before it became imperative for all able-bodied women to have "real" jobs. (That shift has left all manner of holes in our social stucture which have yet to be adequately filled) . I'm just about old enough to remember that being the norm.
Oooh! A quick Google just revealed that practically all the EU countries are dependant on migrant workers ftom other EU countries for farm work. So, hey :) if we all cease this annual , seasonal population re-shuffle and just employ our own migrants, it looks like most of us shoud be OK :LOL: And we'll reduce our carbon footprint, too :)
But anyway, "Frowned upon"was not a good way of putting it. It makes you Swedes sound sniffy, when what you really mean is ""We found out that it doesn't work in practice". Much the same as Brits and Aussies.
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The reason that doing farm work is such a lousy option for people who need money in Australia and the UK is that it is now entirely structured around a steady supply of cheap migrant labour. If that cheap migrant labour were less available then governments would need to make changes to welfare and farmers would need to broaden their scope on hiring in order to make it practical for an unemployed person to head to the farms for a few weeks' worth of work and a few quid in their pocket.
Like it used to be. 30+ years ago my brother saved a pretty decent stash of money for travel by chasing farm work like fruit picking, and it was a pretty common lifestyle choice for some Aussies during the picking season. These days that is no longer an option, and it is pretty common for people who are naive enough to believe stories in the media about labour shortages on farms to end up fronting up at charities in remote towns, with no money and empty bellies.
We even have a farm work requirement for backpackers who want to stay longer than a standard tourist visa. Often they are literally not paid a cent, an agency either keeps all their money or the farmer (who is likely not making any money either) won't sign their "farm work requirement" documentation unless they agree to work for free. It's just an avenue for exploitation. Girls are regularly taken advantage of, one was even murdered by another farm worker a while back. And backpackers from Northern Europe have been known to drop dead, literally, when forced to work in blazing sun and 40+ degree heat.
My wife has friends who literally work as cleaners for free. Volunteer work. They will do that for months and months so that they have enough experience to maybe get an actual job as a cleaner on minimum wage. That is how desperate Australian people are for work. And yet employers' groups make out that they need to hire foreign students and undocumented immigrants because "Australians don't want the jobs".
If you catch a taxi in Sydney there is about a 50% chance that the driver is an IT professional from the subcontinent. And yet the government and employer groups pretend that there is a skill shortage in IT. My company has been shedding jobs left right and centre and does not provide training to staff in Oz and then claims that there are no staff qualified for the roles here and they need to bring people in from an offshore development centre on temporary visas. Employer groups even claim that they need to bring in more immigrants to work in IT because there has been a huge drop in the number of IT students at universities. And the reason for that drop? Employment prospects are shite.
And then people wonder why the working class, the underclass, and large segments of the middle class vote against open borders? I am all for immigration, but not like this. Not as a tool of exploitation and as a tool for undermining the rights and living standards of current residents.
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Haven't l;ooked up the stats, but i do recall being amazed by the etnic mix of the Grenfell Tower survivors. It very much looked as if poor white folk are a tiny minority, on that showing. And that poverty really might be the result of racial discrimation. Can't really blame Londoners for thinking as much.
Immigrants are likely prepared to put up with worse working conditions and living conditions and lower pay than Brits.
Immigrants in Australia, for example, commonly live in situations where there are 3 or 4 times as many tenants in an apartment or house as would traditionally be the case with Australians. An Australian might once have rented an apartment with a friend or two, while an immigrant might pay $150 a week for a bunk in a small bedroom with 3 other people, or $100 a week for a mat on the floor in a hallway. The young Aussie might be splitting the $700 a week rent on a small apartment with one other person, so working for a third of the minimum wage doesn't even cover the rent. Hence "Aussies don't want those jobs".
My brother had a Thai girlfriend who was a trained chef. She would go to interviews with all her qualifications and visas and passport. Some employers would insist on seeing her visas etc. and then tell her they didn't have any work for her. The reason they insisted on seeing her visa was that if she were an undocumented immigrant they could say "maybe we can help each other" and offer her a fraction of the minimum wage.
I had a friend who lived in one of the wealthiest suburbs in Australia, in a tiny apartment with views of the Opera House. His Thai wife was getting bored, she applied for jobs at each of the 4 Thai restaurants within a few hundred metres of their apartment. They all offered her work at the same rate, $50 cash for a 10 hour shift. Management keeps the tips. Work 7 days a week and you've got $350, pay $100 a week for a mattress on the floor somewhere, spend $50 on food, $50 on transport and $50 on incidentals, and send $100 a week back to your family in a village in Thailand. Or something like that.
And those employers will claim that Australians are too lazy to take the jobs, that they don't want those jobs. Who actually believes that crap?
I don't blame anyone who votes against the status quo. End of story.
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Immigrants are likely prepared to put up with worse working conditions and living conditions and lower pay than Brits.
Well, yes, but then again , plenty of Brits are desperate enough to put up with illegally low wages, illegally bad working working conditions (eg a white british neighbour of mine worked at a bakery where hygeine was so bad that the workers routinely avoided eating and drinking before work, for fear they'd have to use the disgusting toilet facilities. Nobody complained because they didn't want to lose their jobs ) and shocking living conditions (the housing crsis leaving no realistic choice in the matter).
So any operation that "needs" to recruit from abroad on that basis has got to be deeply shady. As indeed, untold numbers are. eg
https://www.agriland.co.uk/farming-news/farm-workers-among-victims-freed-in-uks-biggest-modern-slavery-investigation/
after following more links, I found out that that the chances of being caught out if you run this kind of operation are minute. And the sentences wouldn't be much of a deterrent, would they? not when you consider the enormous profits to be made.
I've also ben pootling round the internet, looking more deeply into this "pick for Britain "drive . checking out that recruitment hub and recent news articles. It's becoming increasingly clear that a lot of our farmers have been caught with their pants down, and are having to come up with ever-thinner excuses for turning down the rush of British applicants. One farmer said that, even if he took on some Brits, he still had to bring back the same Romanians who'd worked for him last year, because that previous experience had transformed them into ""highly skilled workers" who would be needed to teach the Brits what to do. :LOL: Another farmer clearly stated (in his recruitment ad) that he couldn't allow cars to be parked on his land, so the British workers would just have to live on site, and they would just have to get there by bus. He then kindly provided a link to the local bus service. How's that for bending over backwards to enable these kind folk to help? :LOL: And loads of them said that they didn't need help right now, not until the end of May, or June. But they didn;t offer the " early" applicants any work, just bluntly stated that fact.
Nonetheless , they're still trotting out the "Brits are too lazy "drivel.
And those employers will claim that Australians are too lazy to take the jobs, that they don't want those jobs. Who actually believes that crap?
Too many folk, sadly :(
I don't blame anyone who votes against the status quo. End of story.
Me neither.
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We have a system where you can travel anywhere within a couple of hours of Sydney on a Sunday for $2.80, for the whole day.
This is the weekly outing for a lot of underpaid migrant workers. You see them on the train, with their plastic containers of rice and plastic bottles of tap water. Or sometimes home-made bread and water. They get on the train, go somewhere interesting, walk around, get back on the train, go home. Their total spending for the day is $2.80 as the food they eat is just exactly what they would have eaten if they had stayed home anyway.
It's great that we provide a facility for underpaid people to have a nice day out but.... they aren't exactly contributing to the local economy in the places they visit. This isn't how you build a thriving economy.
Edit to add: And this isn't how you treat people.
In an earlier post I referenced how my friend's wife was offered $50 a day to work in a restaurant. Cash in hand. My friend was really angry that they would try to pull that and he rang every relevant department and insisted that something be done.
Guess what happened? Nothing. Nobody cares.
We have franchises like 7-11 and pizza chains, where the business model cannot possibly work, cannot possibly break even, if employees are paid minimum wage. Franchisees have in the past been openly advised on the need to underpay people and how to go about it.
And yeah, those employers will tell you all about how lazy Australians are and how they don't want to work.
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Depopulation of the north has been a big issue for decades. The vast majority of the country now live way south of the geographical "middle".
There are opportunities in the south. :P
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In an earlier post I referenced how my friend's wife was offered $50 a day to work in a restaurant. Cash in hand. My friend was really angry that they would try to pull that and he rang every relevant department and insisted that something be done.
Guess what happened? Nothing. Nobody cares.
Sadly, i am not in the least surprised. I guess the powers-that-be in both our countries are quite happy to accept that the modern economy is propped up by slave labour, the main goal being that the rich shpuld continue to get even richer.
IIRC, your friend's wife was only looking for a job out of boredom, so why doesn't she volunteer somewhere? I know i know, a lot of charities now are run just like private business, and thus virtually amount to scam,; but exceptions can be found, and State schools are often crying out for volunteers to help the teaching staff, and most parents are too busy working, or looking for numerative work. or hey! how about she founds a charity (or joins one if such already exists) to try to help those exploited Thai workers?
In Britain , the DWP now "encourages"" people to do voluntary work to help them gain work experience, so you'd think that volunteer posts were over-subscribed to the hilt. But in practice that means that voluntary organisations can't get the committed workers they really need, just a successive batches of random jobless who've who''ve been coerced by the state into signing up for a few short weeks.
When you and I were young, those with a strong social conscience ( in Britain at least) could effectively choose to put their time and energy into all kinds worthy projrects (in the Arts, education and social care) and survive on state Benefits rather than try to squeeze a wage out of it. Lots of people did it, and the DWP didn't mind because there wasn't enough paid work to go around anyway, and so they were under no pressure to get everybody back into work or anything like that. But most of those projects foundered long ago, as their workers got forced back into the general labour maket , and the myth was born that there's plenty of renumerative work to go round for those who really want it.
People who want to do voluntary work are now required to drastically limit their hours, so as to maintain a full-time readiness for full-time work; they have to declare that they'll drop the voluntary work in a flash, should renumerative work become available; and if the charity pays them expenses such as bus-fares, then they're supposed to declare them , so their value can be deducted from their benefits. Oh! and the value of the benefits has gone down and down too, ofc. In short, it's been made impossible. And, one way or another, everybody's life is a little bit poorer for that.
People like your mate's wife (i mean who are under no pressure to try and earn a living) are now a rare and valuable resource. It would be a bit of waste, IMO, if she just used her talents to help line some restaurant owner's pockets
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Leaving the EU, despite its faults, was a monumentally stupid fucking idea. 2016 made me realise how stupid half of the population are.
If you wanted to leave, fine, but at least have a campaign based on the consequences!
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Leaving the EU, despite its faults, was a monumentally stupid fucking idea. 2016 made me realise how stupid half of the population are.
If you wanted to leave, fine, but at least have a campaign based on the consequences!
If I were in the UK I would have voted to stay.
But I can understand how huge swathes of the working class are pissed off with the status quo and wanted change.
At least leaving the EU is not as bad as having Tony Abbott as your new trade envoy. The UK is more than welcome to him.
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Johnson's supposedly given the EU a 15 October deadline.
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The EU isn't going to budge, I honestly don't know why Boris thinks they will. The arrogance of the tories amazes me.
It will likely be no deal. Well, time to prepare my anus! :tard:
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The EU's got little reason to budge. Johnson is a crappy politician.
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What annoyed me the most was how the UK handled N. Ireland border situation - the UK completely forgot it signed a unilateral agreement with Rep. Ireland (Good Friday Agreement) to ensure both countries support N. Ireland and to ensure open borders.
The problem is that both countries need to be in the EU to allow this to happen, otherwise you need border checks. Closing the border, which in itself is quite complicated and actually goes split through towns and various houses/businesses, would just cause a lot of hassle, tension and worse, potential sectarian violence like as seen in the Troubles.
This could have been easily sorted if the UK took the trade deal and worked with Rep. Ireland, but they didn't. They made the process as difficult as possible, every step of the way. Instead they were arrogant and assumed Ireland wasn't a serious country, despite it having a lot of clout in said... trade agreement. They even had the gall to tell Rep. Ireland to also leave the EU and worse, rejoin the UK! Fucking hell.
As someone who is from Ireland, shit like this just baffles me on the sheer level of ignorance displayed in this situation. We spent ages making peace with the UK after decades of tension, particularly with violence in N. Ireland during the Troubles, only to have it thrown back at our faces with little care and sheer entitlement.
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So what is doing to happen in the end?
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So what is doing to happen in the end?
:eyebrows:
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In the end, Kevv, the UK is fucked.
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So what is doing to happen in the end?
The UK has broken free from an undemocratic oligarchic cartel.
Anyone who tells you otherwise has drank the kool-aide. :M
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Or people who understand the EU more than you do, Scrap.
It's a web of neoliberal red tape, but the UK had a shitload of clout to help introduce reform. Instead of UK MEPs doing anything (who mainly consisted of UKIP members at the time), they dodged meetings, spat the dummy and went on a huff. Now they're happy to receive the EU pension.
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I can't even, I wouldn't buy a fucking fridge from these snake oil peddling twats never mind accept their campaign at face value. Unfortunately 51.9% of those bothered enough to cast a vote disagreed with me. If Scotland manage to get out of this poisoned country I'd consider moving there. The weather suits me, great walking, the drink's epic and I love Irn-Bru and unusual fried foods. :headhurts:
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Agreed, Scotland is the place to go. Good patter 8)
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We're all analysing the situation differently.
I've been wanting to say: i feel your pain re, the way our Govermment rode roughshod over Ireland, Schleed. But then they're a bunch of freaking Tories aren't they? and it;s a cryning shame that the English get fooled into re-electing them, and that the Blairites are back in full control of Labour. So it looks like we're stuck with a rightwing government for the foresable, never mind which way people vote. (emo)
The Socialist Party's position on the EU was (and remains) that its just a" web of neoliberal red tape" like you said, and that the only way foreward towards a Socialist Europe is to dismantle the EU, and unite under some other banner. So, we all voted for Brexit. And it's thought that the only reason why Corbyn didn;t openly come out in favour of Brexit was because he had to compromise with the Blairites on that one, to get them to ratify his (old fashioned leftie) manifesto. But, truth is, he actually needed to get out from under EU thumb to be able fully implement that manifesto, if push ever came to shove.
A Tory-led Brexit is something very different than evisaged ofc :( But at least, if we ever manage to get a genuinely left-wing Gpvernment, they'll be in a better position to turn things around. That's a bloody big "if ", I know. but hey! we;ve got a steady stream of disillusioned Corbynistas coming over to the Socialist Party, and TUSC is going back to standing its own candidates next election ( we were campaiging for Corbyn, last time, rather than split the left wing vote by standing agsinst him). So there is an alternative brewing. Not a strong alternaruve, admittedly, but getting stronger all the time.
As for Scotland,. Well, heck, the SNP put the nail in Corbyn's coffin by taking the opposite approach to TUSC. I mean, they basically ensured that the Tories got in. Can't really blame then , but still. The prospect of Scotland leaving the UK is truly scary for the Left (outside Scotland) because the left has always depended on Scottish votes. Getting rid of the Tories wothout the support of the Scots is gonna be nigh-on impossible. I hope to god that Scotland doesn't abandon us.
It would be a whole lot better , politically, if only the South of England declared Independance instead. :laugh: Well, i can dream *sigh*
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People on the left voting for brexit are just as stupid, IMO. There is nothing in the EU that won't allow a country be socialist in nature, or that somehow EU laws are incompatible with a socialist system. Even Sinn Fein in N. Ireland realised this, and they're very eurosceptical!
The UK had tremendous clout to make reforms, but never attempted to. The UK had the means to do a clean and orderly brexit, with a deal to allow the best of both worlds, and still made a complete balls of it. I have no faith in this country anymore.
Scotland is likely to leave, and frankly I'm all for it. The UK in it's current state cannot exist anymore.
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People on the left voting for brexit are just as stupid, IMO. There is nothing in the EU that won't allow a country be socialist in nature, or that somehow EU laws are incompatible with a socialist system. Even Sinn Fein in N. Ireland realised this, and they're very eurosceptical!
The UK had tremendous clout to make reforms, but never attempted to. The UK had the means to do a clean and orderly brexit, with a deal to allow the best of both worlds, and still made a complete balls of it. I have no faith in this country anymore.
Scotland is likely to leave, and frankly I'm all for it. The UK in it's current state cannot exist anymore.
When you say UK this and UK that, you actually mean the Tory Bastards who are clinging to power in the UK by fair means and (mostly) foul at present, and UKIP. Try not to tar the whole country with the same brush,. Most UK citizens were born here and have nowhere else to go after all. And we evidently can't all pile into Scotland. The worst you can say about most of us is that, prior to the Brexit referderum and Corbyn's ascendency, we were too disillusioned with the options to trouble to vote . And i guess it's going back to that now. But cutting loose from the UK altogether is not a more noble nor heplful; approach to the problem, just understandably self-centred.
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When you say UK this and UK that, you actually mean the Tory Bastards who are clinging to power in the UK by fair means and (mostly) foul at present, and UKIP. Try not to tar the whole country with the same brush,. Most UK citizens were born here and have nowhere else to go after all. And we evidently can't all pile into Scotland. The worst you can say about most of us is that, prior to the Brexit referderum and Corbyn's ascendency, we were too disillusioned with the options to trouble to vote . And i guess it's going back to that now.
It's more than just the tories. I'll hold anyone who voted for it responsible when shit hits the fan, and shit indeed will hit it. Don't try to "other" yourself when you are part of the problem here. Part of the reason why I'm going to be made redundant is directly due to it. Part of the reason why my partner is getting fucked over in regards to disability benefits and essential medication, particularly for her chronic pain (she has EDS), is directly due to it. Some of my friends, who have been attacked due to their race, is directly due to it. Sorry, not buying it.
But cutting loose from the UK altogether is not a more noble nor heplful; approach to the problem, just understandably self-centred.
It's self centred to run part of a country to the ground, to the point they want independence? Independence is the best chance they have at this point to get out of this brexit hellscape.
It's funny though, same shite was said when Ireland wanted to leave - we had to literally fight you eejits to a stalemate just to barely get that (and even then, took a lot of jumping hoops just to get 3/4s of it fully independent). Be grateful that Scotland wants to do it again by a referendum. :lol1:
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People on the left voting for brexit are just as stupid, IMO.
Putting it down to stupidity, though, is papering over a LOT of issues that have led us to where we are.
Huge numbers of people are misinformed and terrified of leftists in general. The conservatives and the right know exactly what they are doing and they are extremely well funded and they know how to get into people's heads.
And the reality is that the working class and, increasingly, much of the middle class has been progressively getting screwed over for decades. They know that they are getting screwed over, they just don't know the mechanics of it. Many are buying the portrayal of leftists as "globalists" and blame the left for offshoring of manufacturing and service jobs, and immigration programs designed to undercut the rights and conditions of the working class and some professions. Immigration is not inherently a problem, immigration as a tool of neoliberalism IS inherently bad.
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It amazes me that there are still people who think Brexit is a good idea.
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People on the left voting for brexit are just as stupid, IMO.
Putting it down to stupidity, though, is papering over a LOT of issues that have led us to where we are.
Huge numbers of people are misinformed and terrified of leftists in general. The conservatives and the right know exactly what they are doing and they are extremely well funded and they know how to get into people's heads.
And the reality is that the working class and, increasingly, much of the middle class has been progressively getting screwed over for decades. They know that they are getting screwed over, they just don't know the mechanics of it. Many are buying the portrayal of leftists as "globalists" and blame the left for offshoring of manufacturing and service jobs, and immigration programs designed to undercut the rights and conditions of the working class and some professions. Immigration is not inherently a problem, immigration as a tool of neoliberalism IS inherently bad.
It was stupid in terms of the referendum (they could have gave multiple options rather than a simple yes/no, as there is on single agreed upon kind of brexit), and I do think the people who voted for it, regardless of their justification, are also stupid for thinking it was a good idea.
Regardless if you did it for some misguided aim to have a socialist utopia or not, it will fuck the country up. Hard. We're already seeing the effects of this (even before covid), and brexit hasn't even fully happened yet. I spent 4 years battling with mental health issues... purely because of it. It's fucking crazy.
This is why, as a leftist, I get annoyed at some other leftists - no concept of pragmatism at all. All they care about is ideological purity rather than the wellbeing of people.
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Huge numbers of people are misinformed and terrified of leftists in general. The conservatives and the right know exactly what they are doing and they are extremely well funded and they know how to get into people's heads.
:LMAO:
No, the problem is that people are waking up to just how insane the Left have become, especially in the US. BLM is an openly Marxist organization who has as one of its stated goals, to dismantle the nuclear family. Yes, the #1 problem with black Americans is fatherlessness and those lesbian Marxists want to make it worse, turning black people into a permanent criminal class.
Let's not even mention the 69,472 new genders along with their made up pronouns and giving hormones to confused kids who really don't understand their sexuality. And decriminalizing pedophilia in California? Nope, nothing to see here. This is the new utopian normal. Speaking of decriminalization, California made theft of less than $900 NOT a crime and politicians are excusing all the looting, calling it reparations and It's ok if the looters need the stuff.
Really, you're at the point of denial that's no longer defensible.
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Scrap, do you honestly believe the shite you're writing?
Like this for example:
BLM is an openly Marxist organization who has as one of its stated goals, to dismantle the nuclear family.
This line in itself is so fucking stupid and out of touch with reality, I don't even know where to begin... and you claim that I believe in complete nonsense?
BLM's aims are to tackle systemic racism, not to "dismantle the nuclear family", holy fuck - people are still free to have nuclear families :lol1:
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Scrap, do you honestly believe the shite you're writing?
Like this for example:
BLM is an openly Marxist organization who has as one of its stated goals, to dismantle the nuclear family.
This line in itself is so fucking stupid and out of touch with reality, I don't even know where to begin... and you claim that I believe in complete nonsense?
BLM's aims are to tackle systemic racism, not to "dismantle the nuclear family", holy fuck :lol1:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise)."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=dd1a8dcbf40cb3a70e58059470ea48b262b02daf-1594934458-0-AZyLtVV8o_qoTWTikwuwK2Nixm7E3MkSpqkLWQLg_1IkHa12G6vmhKWbUyEZ1Oq0kizUVd_1BM0OaYr1xaQPVOUdNwi26OnnynOFtc2nPvCSnxH05wa6srs-ANtyPMdpf5x_F4eX
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Agree with BLM there. Disrupt =/= dismantle.
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Scrap, do you honestly believe the shite you're writing?
Like this for example:
BLM is an openly Marxist organization who has as one of its stated goals, to dismantle the nuclear family.
This line in itself is so fucking stupid and out of touch with reality, I don't even know where to begin... and you claim that I believe in complete nonsense?
BLM's aims are to tackle systemic racism, not to "dismantle the nuclear family", holy fuck :lol1:
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise)."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=dd1a8dcbf40cb3a70e58059470ea48b262b02daf-1594934458-0-AZyLtVV8o_qoTWTikwuwK2Nixm7E3MkSpqkLWQLg_1IkHa12G6vmhKWbUyEZ1Oq0kizUVd_1BM0OaYr1xaQPVOUdNwi26OnnynOFtc2nPvCSnxH05wa6srs-ANtyPMdpf5x_F4eX
How is disrupting expected family structures in society stopping people from having nuclear families? No one is going to stop you. This is a far cry from "dismantling", purely to make room for more options.
In fact this process has been going on for over half a century at this point - do you remember when single parents were demonised?
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It sounds like they're trying to expand the family, not dismantle it. Nuclear family PLUS the support of extended family and close friends/cohort. Ya know, like most of society used to be before we started relocating all over the country or the world, following jobs.
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What part of "Disrupt" did you guys miss??
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What part of "Disrupt" did you guys miss??
I read the whole paragraph that contained the word "disrupt" rather than looking at a single word and drawing implications from that.
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People on the left voting for brexit are just as stupid, IMO.
Putting it down to stupidity, though, is papering over a LOT of issues that have led us to where we are.
Huge numbers of people are misinformed and terrified of leftists in general. The conservatives and the right know exactly what they are doing and they are extremely well funded and they know how to get into people's heads.
And the reality is that the working class and, increasingly, much of the middle class has been progressively getting screwed over for decades. They know that they are getting screwed over, they just don't know the mechanics of it. Many are buying the portrayal of leftists as "globalists" and blame the left for offshoring of manufacturing and service jobs, and immigration programs designed to undercut the rights and conditions of the working class and some professions. Immigration is not inherently a problem, immigration as a tool of neoliberalism IS inherently bad.
It was stupid in terms of the referendum (they could have gave multiple options rather than a simple yes/no, as there is on single agreed upon kind of brexit), and I do think the people who voted for it, regardless of their justification, are also stupid for thinking it was a good idea.
Regardless if you did it for some misguided aim to have a socialist utopia or not, it will fuck the country up. Hard. We're already seeing the effects of this (even before covid), and brexit hasn't even fully happened yet. I spent 4 years battling with mental health issues... purely because of it. It's fucking crazy.
This is why, as a leftist, I get annoyed at some other leftists - no concept of pragmatism at all. All they care about is ideological purity rather than the wellbeing of people.
But did the majority of people who voted for brexit do so because they weighed up the expert opinions and made an informed decision? Or did they vote for brexit because they were pissed off with the status quo, and had every right to be pissed off with the status quo?
This may come as a shock, but most people are neither smart nor well-informed. But they know when they are being screwed.
The mainstream left is no longer appealing to most people who should be leftists.
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What part of "Disrupt" did you guys miss??
I read the whole paragraph that contained the word "disrupt" rather than looking at a single word and drawing implications from that.
ditto
But did the majority of people who voted for brexit do so because they weighed up the expert opinions and made an informed decision? Or did they vote for brexit because they were pissed off with the status quo, and had every right to be pissed off with the status quo?
This may come as a shock, but most people are neither smart nor well-informed. But they know when they are being screwed.
The mainstream left is no longer appealing to most people who should be leftists.
Every time I set out to respond to this thread, some other thing distracts me.
Well, NVM, Gotta thank you. profusely Mo, for making many of the points I wanted to make :plus: :plus: :plus:
BTW, you forgot to say thats álmost entirely because the "mainstream left " are not actually Left. And neither is the EU. People are not that daft, but the word ""left" has become so corrupted that folk fail to find a word for what's lacking.
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What part of "Disrupt" did you guys miss??
What, are you annoyed that we didn't come to the same conclusion? I've read your link, and I'm not reggie, so my reading comprehension skills are pretty good.
The whole point of it all is to allow people to do whatever they want in terms of families without being shamed by current societal norms (which at the moment, puts nuclear families on a weird pedestal). Nuclear? Go for it. Single parenting? Sure! Extended families? Away you go!
As someone who deems themselves a libertarian, shouldn't you be fine with this?