INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: El on April 10, 2007, 05:50:48 AM
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Let's hear your thoughts, pro and con. It came up tangentially on the gay marriage thread and deserves a thread of its own. I'm interested.
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For most situations, I have the atitude that I should just mind my own business and not try to interfere with sexual decisions mutually made by consenting adults.
For some polygamous marriages the problem is, how can one know that all parties concerned entered the arrangement of their own free wills? Some of the polygamous marriages that happen in the Fundamentalist Mormon offshoot of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints involve underage females who are given as a kind of "prize" to some older high ranking male members of the church who already have several wives and some of the young women are coerced into this arrangement. One example was a sixteen year old girl who was severely beaten by her father for not agreeing to marry his brother, her uncle, and she ran away. That's just so wrong on so many levels that it makes me sick.
I know in some African countries, the Moslem men take on more wives despite the objections of their first wives, because they can't even afford to support their children with the first wife, let alone support the children of the second and third wives, so then all the mothers of the children are left to try to support their children alone.
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For most situations, I have the atitude that I should just mind my own business and not try to interfere with sexual decisions mutually made by consenting adults.
For some polygamous marriages the problem is, how can one know that all parties concerned entered the arrangement of their own free wills? Some of the polygamous marriages that happen in the Fundamentalist Mormon offshoot of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints involve underage females who are given as a kind of "prize" to some older high ranking male members of the church who already have several wives and some of the young women are coerced into this arrangement. One example was a sixteen year old girl who was severely beaten by her father for not agreeing to marry his brother, her uncle, and she ran away. That's just so wrong on so many levels that it makes me sick.
I know in some African countries, the Moslem men take on more wives despite the objections of their first wives, because they can't even afford to support their children with the first wife, let alone support the children of the second and third wives, so then all the mothers of the children are left to try to support their children alone.
How can one know that people enter monogamous marriages of their own free will? I don't see any reason why polygamy would be more problematic in that respect than monogamy, and if there's a high instance of forced polygamous marriage, it's almost certainly because of other issues in the cultures that have polygamous marriage, rather than an effect of the polygamous marriage itself. In a culture where women are given away as prizes, the problem isn't that polygamy exists in that culture, but that women are viewed as tradeable assets. In such a culture, replacing polygamy with monogamy would just result in forced monogamous marriage rather than forced polygamous marriage.
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How can one know that people enter monogamous marriages of their own free will? I don't see any reason why polygamy would be more problematic in that respect than monogamy, and if there's a high instance of forced polygamous marriage, it's almost certainly because of other issues in the cultures that have polygamous marriage, rather than an effect of the polygamous marriage itself. In a culture where women are given away as prizes, the problem isn't that polygamy exists in that culture, but that women are viewed as tradeable assets. In such a culture, replacing polygamy with monogamy would just result in forced monogamous marriage rather than forced polygamous marriage.
That's a good point, Peter.
I do think that in some polygamous cultures, women or girls are regarded as prizes and a man with more wives is more highly regarded than a man with only one wife in those cultures. I think that higher regard for males with multiple wives may be an integral part of many polygamous cultures.
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The thing is if you can't support one wife and kid(s) properly, why multiply the problem! The Mormons base their views on Old Testament lifestyles, when the cultural norm was to have multiple wives. It was expected of Kings, Chiefs and prominent citizens to do so as a sign of higher status. Also for Kings and Rulers, many of their wives were used to solidify alliances with other kings. Most "peasants" or regular citizens could not afford to do this. With rare exceptions where multiple wives and children could help with the farm chores, but, that was only if you were a wealthy farmer.
Most Mormon polygamous sects that I have read about have the women doing most of the supporting by working jobs and the man acts like some sort of religious "elder".
An interesting book, I read had an entire chapter devoted to one town that was mostly a polygamous family. "Miles from Nowhere" by Dayton Duncan. VIKING PRESS It's a great read about the least populated counties in the US, places that still qualify as "frontier" status.
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Put a caviat in the marriage agreement about under what conditions who is allowed to marry who, and who is allowed to sleep with who, and the rest is private decisions made by consenting adults. Only problems i'd forsee is that it would make marriage litigation more complicated, and it would make a whole bunch of divorce lawyers obscenely rich.
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I fundamentally believe that the number three has mystical properties.
I mix this in with my own desires for more than one woman. One of my
major arguments for this is that it is often the case that one member of
a relationship is incapable of providing the support and comfort which
another might need, at a given moment. The chances of finding someone
capable of handling emotional needs increases with the size of the partnership.
HOWEVER, there is a definite limit to the number of people that I would be
comfortable with in such a relationship. I know (from experience) that three
works well - I would be willing to try four, if I were bi, but I don't really think
that the proper balance would necessarily be maintained with three females.
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What, all the gender blurring in your online persona, and it turns out you're totally straight? Don't you care that you're missing out on half a world of possibilities?
Another advantage to three - when two of them are fighting, number three's always there to play mediator.
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What, all the gender blurring in your online persona, and it turns out you're totally straight? Don't you care that you're missing out on half a world of possibilities?
Another advantage to three - when two of them are fighting, number three's always there to play mediator.
You gotta pity the mediator.
I could never live in a marriage where there was another man and a woman and I had to mediate. I'd wind up thinking of them as my parents.
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Hahahaha
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You gotta pity the mediator.
I could never live in a marriage where there was another man and a woman and I had to mediate. I'd wind up thinking of them as my parents.
I don't think it would bother me. But then I kind of like playing mediator. Probably because it was never forced onto me.
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What, all the gender blurring in your online persona, and it turns out you're totally straight? Don't you care that you're missing out on half a world of possibilities?
Yeah, I do. I also worry that I should like women who aren't fairly thin. Not much I can do
about my aesthetics. Tried with a male once (in a group thing), didn't do much for me.
I happen to be very feminine in a lot of ways. Though it's kind of hard to express just
what they are. Flamboyance in clothing choice, sensitivity, passive-aggressive, a lot of
things which are often seen as more feminine.
As to a mediator, I would hope for another relationship WITHOUT conflict. My wife and
I never fought after the first year or two.
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I can barely deal with one woman, dealing with several.............. :o................... :twitch: :kapow:
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I can barely deal with one woman, dealing with several.............. :o................... :twitch: :kapow:
Ah, but that's part of the charm. They can deal with one another too. Takes some of the burden
off. In some ways, it's sort of the answer to not having large social networks - to have more
closer friends. But, there are aspects of my life that I wouldn't share with people whom I'm
not intimate with.
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I'd rather live as a hermit in the Mountains of New Mexico or on the slopes of Mt. St. Helens than having to deal with more than one wife! Actually there's some interesting activity going around "Middle Sister" of the Three Sisters Volcano area. Yeah, that's the ticket!
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I'd rather live as a hermit in the Mountains of New Mexico or on the slopes of Mt. St. Helens than having to deal with more than one wife! Actually there's some interesting activity going around "Middle Sister" of the Three Sisters Volcano area. Yeah, that's the ticket!
About the only reason that I wouldn't want an isolated lifestyle is EXACTLY the hope for what you dread. I've given up on finding friends (there are no gamers anymore - they all grew up/switched to computer games), and although the adoration of crowds appeals to me, I just can't afford to keep that up either.
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I gave up on having friends IRL. When the ones I did have dumped me when it became convenient! ::)
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I just lost mine over time. Much of it was my own fault - but I could bear it
because I had my love. Now, I have nothing, and no idea how I could get
anything back. All the good that ever came to me happened as if by magic,
and the magic seems used up now.
:violin:
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"With plenty of coloured lanterns
my way through the world I went.
They faded, quite and unnoticed,
and the beautiful came to an end.
I stopped -- pretty embarrassed --
then all had lost its glare.
But now I've been on this path,
that comes out of Nowhere,
and winds into Nothingness;
many years here I've gone --
without any coloured lanterns.
It's hard -- but can be done."
Translation of a poem of the Swedish poet Nils Ferlin.
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But...what do lanterns have to do with anything?
I don't want lanterns, I want the sun now.
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I just lost mine over time. Much of it was my own fault - but I could bear it
because I had my love. Now, I have nothing, and no idea how I could get
anything back. All the good that ever came to me happened as if by magic,
and the magic seems used up now.
:violin:
Been there, felt that....it sucks big time! :violin:
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But...what do lanterns have to do with anything?
I don't want lanterns, I want the sun now.
Lanterns like the ones you have for a party. In this case symbols for the illusions of life.
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But...what do lanterns have to do with anything?
I don't want lanterns, I want the sun now.
Lanterns like the ones you have for a party. In this case symbols for the illusions of life.
As I said, I want the sun now. No illusions, just the pure good that I once chased. Problem
is, that's probably impossible without the strength to fully go insane - and I'm not sure that
I have that. I'm tired of failing to even try, and might just reach for some old worn out candles.
@ozy - but, I thought you were still married?
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But...what do lanterns have to do with anything?
I don't want lanterns, I want the sun now.
Lanterns like the ones you have for a party. In this case symbols for the illusions of life.
As I said, I want the sun now. No illusions, just the pure good that I once chased. Problem
is, that's probably impossible without the strength to fully go insane - and I'm not sure that
I have that. I'm tired of failing to even try, and might just reach for some old worn out candles.
@ozy - but, I thought you were still married?
I'm referring to the years of disappointment before I got married. Failure was my middle name! In more ways than I can describe. At least not here, the anti-emo task force would take me to task! :P
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I kinda understand, but the only point (after I had friends)
when I felt alone (in terms of relationships) I still had some.
I was young then, and had hopes as well. I mean, I sort
of do still - I know that I can still interest the purty things,
but I feel that I just wouldn't have the strength to devote
to falling in love anymore. Kind of makes the whole issue of
my expectations a joke, but I can't see having less than what
I got used to. Probably would always regret it.
On the other hand, I just don't think that I have anywhere
near the will to force myself to seek the divine knowledge
without being in far more horrible circumstances than I
am liable to face. There are times when I wish that they
would just lock me away from all the distractions, and see
what I could come up with.
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As to a mediator, I would hope for another relationship WITHOUT conflict. My wife and
I never fought after the first year or two.
about this time is when she got a boyfriend.
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As to a mediator, I would hope for another relationship WITHOUT conflict. My wife and
I never fought after the first year or two.
about this time is when she got a boyfriend.
A little infidelity always raises the guilt levels and makes someone more compliant.
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I've given up on finding friends (there are no gamers anymore - they all grew up/switched to computer games)
I don't know where people are looking for gamers, but you're the third person I've heard bitch this week that there are no decent, older, intelligent pen-and-paper gamers in the world anymore.
Or are you thinking strategy wargames? Cause I don't know too much about those circles.
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On the other hand, I just don't think that I have anywhere
near the will to force myself to seek the divine knowledge
without being in far more horrible circumstances than I
am liable to face.
Why? If you used to have it, what made you lose it?
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Or are you thinking strategy wargames? Cause I don't know too much about those circles.
Unfortunately. Never were many to begin with.
On the other hand, I just don't think that I have anywhere
near the will to force myself to seek the divine knowledge
without being in far more horrible circumstances than I
am liable to face.
Why? If you used to have it, what made you lose it?
Didn't ever have the will. Obviously, since one does not lose such knowledge.
But, I have less will for it now than I did before. Too easily swayed by the
net, and the demands of reality. Just put me in a cell somewhere, and I
shall learn if I can succeed or not.
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You gotta pity the mediator.
I could never live in a marriage where there was another man and a woman and I had to mediate. I'd wind up thinking of them as my parents.
I don't think it would bother me. But then I kind of like playing mediator. Probably because it was never forced onto me.
I was mostly joking about that last part. Being mediator would bug me though because it would make me feel like the odd one out in the relationship, and I do believe I'm not cut out for anything more complicated than the already complicated lifestyle of monogamy.
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I suppose that it would be a bit more complicated. But I don't know that arguments are
necessary. Just so everyone involved realized one another's boundaries.
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Maybe we should induct every member if I2 into a group marriage. One problem tho - we need to allow under 18s, so that me , Lit and Peter can get our teen fix >:D
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Maybe we should induct every member if I2 into a group marriage. One problem tho - we need to allow under 18s, so that me , Lit and Peter can get our teen fix >:D
Cool. I'll just watch. ::)
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Maybe we should induct every member if I2 into a group marriage. One problem tho - we need to allow under 18s, so that me , Lit and Peter can get our teen fix >:D
I call slopy seconds !!!
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Maybe we should induct every member if I2 into a group marriage. One problem tho - we need to allow under 18s, so that me , Lit and Peter can get our teen fix >:D
Cool. I'll just watch. ::)
\
i bet if you say you'll just watch, you will start rubbing your groin.
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Didn't ever have the will. Obviously, since one does not lose such knowledge.
But, I have less will for it now than I did before. Too easily swayed by the
net, and the demands of reality. Just put me in a cell somewhere, and I
shall learn if I can succeed or not.
One might not lose the knowledge one finds, but I think it's entirely feasible to lose the desire to keep looking. I've heard plenty of older adults talk about how they just don't have the energy or fire they had when they were younger - regardless of what the energy's for.
Hence asking the question. If you were one of them, you could tell me what went wrong, so that I could avoid it.
As for the cell - I don't think it counts, if it's forced on you, unless you're talking about the ambiguous self-inflicted forcing you so love.
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In all seriousness, it makes more sense for women to have mutliple husbands, than it does for men to have multiple wives. Do the math.
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One might not lose the knowledge one finds, but I think it's entirely feasible to lose the desire to keep looking. I've heard plenty of older adults talk about how they just don't have the energy or fire they had when they were younger - regardless of what the energy's for.
Hence asking the question. If you were one of them, you could tell me what went wrong, so that I could avoid it.
Love went wrong. When I had no hopes of finding love and contentment, I was dedicated to the fight against reality. When they
came, I made a bargain with my lady. The bargain failed, and though she hasn't scorned me since, my own commitment has been
far less than it should be. Even the pain of losing my wife (the second such loss that mattered? Or maybe the third?), though it
threw me into a frenzy of activity, sent me into usually searching for more realistic goals. If one succumbs to the pleasures of this
world, it becomes harder to search for the purity of a better one.
As for the cell - I don't think it counts, if it's forced on you, unless you're talking about the ambiguous self-inflicted forcing you so love.
No, it wouldn't be an act of will itself - but the separation from all that might distract me would eventually drive me into the realms
that I seek; or so I hope. But, despair wasn't enough, so perhaps I would just masturbate in my own filth, as I do anyway.
In all seriousness, it makes more sense for women to have mutliple husbands, than it does for men to have multiple wives. Do the math.
Depends on the type of math that you like. Personally, I find hole-oriented math too weak a concept.
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What realms exactly were you seeking?
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Depends on my moods really. Sometimes the winds, sometimes pure being, sometimes
Mathematics. It's all the same in a way though. All except for a couple of escapes from
long ago - a raft on the ocean, and a great rolling plain with my cheetah beside me.
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In all seriousness, it makes more sense for women to have mutliple husbands, than it does for men to have multiple wives. Do the math.
Honestly, I'm not sure I follow.
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In all seriousness, it makes more sense for women to have mutliple husbands, than it does for men to have multiple wives. Do the math.
Honestly, I'm not sure I follow.
she can pleasure more wmen at once.
and women can hold two convos.
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Procreation for a guy is over in a few minutes, but a woman's pregnant for nine months. Same reason as you keep more cows than bulls.
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Procreation for a guy is over in a few minutes, but a woman's pregnant for nine months. Same reason as you keep more cows than bulls.
Yeah, so I'm wondering if Ozy wants to cut back on the world population or what.
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Procreation for a guy is over in a few minutes, but a woman's pregnant for nine months. Same reason as you keep more cows than bulls.
Leave procreation out of this. I think he was referring simply to number of available holes.
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Didn't even occur to me. :laugh:
I think we need him to get his ass back in here and tell us himself what he meant.
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Isn't Ozy on holiday? ???
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Good point. Forgot.
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Isn't Ozy on holiday? ???
Yes.
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Procreation for a guy is over in a few minutes, but a woman's pregnant for nine months. Same reason as you keep more cows than bulls.
Leave procreation out of this. I think he was referring simply to number of available holes.
Did you hear the one about the prostituite who went to the proctologist ??
She said: "Doc could you make another asshole for me ??"
"Sure.... Why ??"
"Because buisiness is good and I want to open up a second location!"
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Did you hear the one about the prostituite who went to the proctologist ??
She said: "Doc could you make another asshole for me ??"
"Sure.... Why ??"
"Because buisiness is good and I want to open up a second location!"
Poor hookers. The butts of so many jokes.
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Did you hear the one about the prostituite who went to the proctologist ??
She said: "Doc could you make another asshole for me ??"
"Sure.... Why ??"
"Because buisiness is good and I want to open up a second location!"
I'm genetically engineering a hooker with 4 butts. ::)
Poor hookers. The butts of so many jokes.
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Procreation for a guy is over in a few minutes, but a woman's pregnant for nine months. Same reason as you keep more cows than bulls.
Yeah, so I'm wondering if Ozy wants to cut back on the world population or what.
Actually.....yes! But, in polyamory, more people would be responsible for the childs welfare than in polygamy!
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I don't know, I haven't even participated in monogamy yet. But off hand I am against it.