INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Praetor on May 16, 2006, 04:41:03 PM
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Ive recently been getting quite heavily interested in the disability rights movement. Expanding my knowledge base and all that. Some AS types and people who buy the neurodiversity argument tend to associate themselves with the wider disability rights movement. I mean don't get me wrong I can see alot of contrast between myself and people like Professor Mike Oliver of Greenwich university and his fight, and I can draw parrelllels but is this really something aspergers needs to be a part off. I for one dont see myself as having a "hidden" disability as the professionals like to refer to it.
What are peoples personal feelings on this subject. Ive purposefully posted this here because it helps to have an international perspective on things. Also im seeing an icelandic professor on disability rights tomorrow talking about the nordic countries approach to disability and autism so this is a precursor to my mind preparing for the day.
Your thoughts and opinions welcome. Im deliberatly letting this discussion be as open as possible lets see were it goes
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Disability rights? there aren't many when your disability is (largely) invisible. People can stick the boot in with a clear conscience because your not 'really' disabled.
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Heh well you get some disability rights people who do recognise aspergers some who don't. Were abit of an enigma really.
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Heh well you get some disability rights people who do recognise aspergers some who don't. Were abit of an enigma really.
Getting labeled as having a disability is the first step to victimhood. Then the rest of your life, everything that happens to you is "because you are disabled".
Did you ever notice how having a disease is becoming a status symbol? Dyslexia, Aspergers, blah blah?
Doctors make this stuff up to make people happy so they give the doctors money. How much money have you given to a doctor for your "disability"? Which in the old days used to be considered a normal part of growing up.
Being socially inept was a staple of movies for decades. You ever see Pretty In Pink? The guy was a teenager learning how to socialize. Not a person with a disease that needed medicine and doctors.
Normality is being "disease-ified" for monetary reasons.
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People are less tolerant of any oddness, employers especially. It has been said that asperger's is more suited to the old fashioned world, less noise, less choice, same job all your life, same spouse all your life, less 'multiskilling' etc. so in my opinion, it's been forced out into the open as an impairment because of the demands and stresses of modern life, particularly working life.
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there's new legislation in the UK about addressing disabilites, and all institutions are jumping to try and sort out their shit pdq.
at the university i work at, there's a new group been set up, to address these issues, and one of the things i'm making sure is highlighted (along with some others) is the issue of "invisible" disabilities, including depression and AS, etc. so, when they're bagining on about access, and wheelchair ramps, i talk about sensory issues and physical environment, etc., and have already offered training and my own expertise for both the academic and the pastoral side of things.
i agree with happeh that the meidcal profession is rather trigger happy with diagnoses, certainly in the US, and even more so with prescription drugs (and it's creeping in over here), but there's a difference between diagnosing Breathing In and Out Syndrome, and actually highlighting something which is causing major grief in someone's life. i'm quite happy to be diagnosed/labelled if it means my life is made easier, having suffered 40 odd years of not being either.
i also think that AS seems more prevalent because social mores and interaction have become less limited - when i was a kid, if you met someone, you said "how do you do", and they replied saying the same. no worries about what to say - the rules were far clearer. i'm not saying that we should go back to the "in your place" state of serfdom, etc., but having those very formal, very clear social interactions made life a lot easier, as far as i can see. "here's a set of social rules: learn 'em, and get on with it". much easier than trying to work out what the fuck to say when.
urgh - have to go t work soon, so curtailed version of what i could say... :-\
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Aspergers is a status symbol? :o
For me, acceptance of the label and what it means has enabled me to empower myself. I have no interest in being a professional victim, ta all the same. There are real issues associated with it, and all the sensory stuff that many of us have complicates the picture. Have you ever heard of the social model of disability happeh? I am intelligent, skilled in several areas, and a grafter. But I cannot hold down a full time job to save my life, which IS due to issues arising from being on the autistic spectrum. This is a problem which I had no explanation for before I realised I was autistic, so the label has been of help to me. My self belief has improved and I'm willing to fight for myself and stick up for others like me.
Writing it off as not real or a normal part of growing up makes it clear that you have no idea at all of what Aspergers actually is. You just sound fucking ignorant.
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i agree with happeh .............
Holy Moly!
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You just sound fucking ignorant.
That's a new opinion. Or is it? I have this weird feeling of Deja Vu.
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You just sound fucking ignorant.
That's a new opinion. Or is it? I have this weird feeling of Deja Vu.
Thats the problem with making ill-informed, sweeping generalisations Happeh. Of course you're going to sound fucking ignorant, because unless you actually know what you are talking about you ARE ignorant. If you were as keen on listening to what people say and doing some research on stuff [oh noes, empirical evidence and personal accounts... that would never do] as you are on spouting bullshit conspiracies and untested 'theory' featuring causality without evidence, you may actually become less ignorant. And may even lose the 'fountain of knowledge' complex you seem to have. ::)
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And may even lose the 'fountain of knowledge' complex you seem to have.
The 'fountain of knowledge' led my murky ol' mind to instantly wonder if this is all the result of mental masturbation, leading to 'spurts' of conspiracy theory and a warm-fuzzyness over producing facts.
Does such cognative self-abuse produce the same kind of physical attributes, I wonder?
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You just sound fucking ignorant.
That's a new opinion. Or is it? I have this weird feeling of Deja Vu.
Thats the problem with making ill-informed, sweeping generalisations Happeh. Of course you're going to sound fucking ignorant,
Sounds like someone is unhappy?
because unless you actually know what you are talking about you ARE ignorant. If you were as keen on listening to what people say and doing some research on stuff [oh noes, empirical evidence and personal accounts... that would never do] as you are on spouting bullshit conspiracies and untested 'theory' featuring causality without evidence, you may actually become less ignorant. And may even lose the 'fountain of knowledge' complex you seem to have.? ::)
If you would stop cursing, and listen and think, all those things you do not understand would become clear.
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For anyone who cares, women work on what is basically "brainwashing".
They insist something is this or that until they get their way. If they don't get their way, they cry, the blackmail you, no sex or affection, they become emotional and crazy.
You can put a solid irrefutable fact in front of a woman, and they will still try all the brainwashing stuff. They are basically 5 year old children who have tantrums until they get what they want.
I have tried in good faith to speak to dunc. I have scored many points such as the x ray picture with labeling being a picture she would describe as scribbling, only because she is not trained as an x ray tech.
Instead of admitting that she is wrong, she gets angrier and more abusive. At some point, according to her experience, I am supposed to break down and give the child what she wants.
Sorry. I don't do that. I don't really like children that much because they behave like duncvis. They have tantrums and speak irrationally because they have not yet developed into an adult. I have no sympathy for children and I give them no special treatment.
You are out of luck dunc. You will not get your way with me thru tantrums, cursing or holding your breath. If you want to deal with me, I will force to think like a rational adult human being.
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you're not very good at determining gender, are you?
:D
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Too much wash cycle, not enough rinse?
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Being socially inept was a staple of movies for decades. You ever see Pretty In Pink? The guy was a teenager learning how to socialize. Not a person with a disease that needed medicine and doctors.
no, i haven't seen Pretty In Pink. but i'm pretty sure that this character, that you speak of, was capable of communicating with others beyond just saying "yeah," "sorry" and "hahaha" - which is the level that i'm ?at, most of the time.
all my life, i've had to work several times harder than others - only to get less results than those who don't try as hard as i do. and then, on top of that, i have to deal with ignorant cunts like you telling me that i should try even harder.
i remember you saying that you saw a "miracle" the other day, Happeh. well, i've not achieved anything special in my lifetime, so far. i've had one relationship (that lasted almost a year) and a few low-paid jobs. that may not sound like anything special to most people but, when i compare myself to how i used to be, i realise that i am ?a miracle. and the thing that makes it truly miraculous is that i achieved it despite the fact that i had people like you all around me, telling me that i was to blame for the difficulties i had.
all i have to do when i want to know how disastrous my life could've been is to look at my father - his parents punished him continuously throughout his childhood because they thought he was a badly behaved child (AS had not been officially identified when he was a kid). is it any wonder that he turned to (and became addicted to) heroin, in his twenties, to escape the emotional pain of having been relentlessly persecuted by the two people who should have accepted him the way he was? he's never been able to hold down a job. he married my mother, but his wife's family hate him because they all think he's a creepy arsehole (even though he's never done anything to hurt anyone). and now, in his early sixties, he's not sure how much of this miserable life he's got left because all the years of drug abuse has damaged his liver.
if people had known, in the forties, what they know about AS today, my dad's life could've been completely different. he's extremely intelligent; who knows what he would've achieved, with the right guidance? but - just to keep everyone else "Happeh" - let's just pretend AS doesn't exist, okay? ?::)
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Heh well you get some disability rights people who do recognise aspergers some who don't. Were abit of an enigma really.
Getting labeled as having a disability is the first step to victimhood. Then the rest of your life, everything that happens to you is "because you are disabled".
Did you ever notice how having a disease is becoming a status symbol? Dyslexia, Aspergers, blah blah?
Doctors make this stuff up to make people happy so they give the doctors money. How much money have you given to a doctor for your "disability"? Which in the old days used to be considered a normal part of growing up.
Being socially inept was a staple of movies for decades. You ever see Pretty In Pink? The guy was a teenager learning how to socialize. Not a person with a disease that needed medicine and doctors.
Normality is being "disease-ified" for monetary reasons.
Autism is not pathological -- it's a common misconception.
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I can hardly breathe for laughing... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Happeh, you have missed your vocation. Instead of wasting your time peddling your 'theory' and convincing yourself that you re the only person with any intelligence in the world, you should have become a stand-up comedian.
FYI,
1 - Last time I checked, I was a rather large, hairy, adult male. This suggests further that your powers of perception on teh intarweb are less than stellar. ::)
2 - That wasn't a tantrum, pal. You have a long way to go before you succeed in pissing me off. I have a naturally foul mouth, I'm a working class English bloke. Duh. I was merely pointing out that you don't have a clue what you are talking about - I think I've made my point. :P :laugh:
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This page is very interesting (http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/89/no-more-train-wrecks#c000432)...
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Doctors make this stuff up to make people happy so they give the doctors money. How much money have you given to a doctor for your "disability"? Which in the old days used to be considered a normal part of growing up.
?0 ;D
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Being socially inept was a staple of movies for decades. You ever see Pretty In Pink? The guy was a teenager learning how to socialize. Not a person with a disease that needed medicine and doctors.
no, i haven't seen Pretty In Pink. but i'm pretty sure that this character, that you speak of, was capable of communicating with others beyond just saying "yeah," "sorry" and "hahaha" - which is the level that i'm ?at, most of the time.
all my life, i've had to work several times harder than others - only to get less results than those who don't try as hard as i do. and then, on top of that, i have to deal with ignorant cunts like you telling me that i should try even harder.
Did I say that?
i remember you saying that you saw a "miracle" the other day, Happeh. well, i've not achieved anything special in my lifetime, so far. i've had one relationship (that lasted almost a year) and a few low-paid jobs. that may not sound like anything special to most people but, when i compare myself to how i used to be, i realise that i am ?a miracle. and the thing that makes it truly miraculous is that i achieved it despite the fact that i had people like you all around me, telling me that i was to blame for the difficulties i had.].
What makes no sense to me is that you act like you are alone. The majority of the people in the world are just like you. They do the best they can and people talk smack to them as a reward. Whether they have Asperger's or something else or nothing at all. That is how life is. You haven't been picked out special for any kind of trouble.
all i have to do when i want to know how disastrous my life could've been is to look at my father - his parents punished him continuously throughout his childhood because they thought he was a badly behaved child (AS had not been officially identified when he was a kid). is it any wonder that he turned to (and became addicted to) heroin, in his twenties, to escape the emotional pain of having been relentlessly persecuted by the two people who should have accepted him the way he was? he's never been able to hold down a job. he married my mother, but his wife's family hate him because they all think he's a creepy arsehole (even though he's never done anything to hurt anyone). and now, in his early sixties, he's not sure how much of this miserable life he's got left because all the years of drug abuse has damaged his liver.
if people had known, in the forties, what they know about AS today, my dad's life could've been completely different. he's extremely intelligent; who knows what he would've achieved, with the right guidance? but - just to keep everyone else "Happeh" - let's just pretend AS doesn't exist, okay? ?::)
I don't agree. I think it is easy to say that "bad behavior" is Asperger's. I think that is an excuse.
Have you ever been around black kids? Black kids are hell. Really. They will not listen, they yell and scream and fight. It is a nightmare. Ask any teacher. Read your newspaper to see what school is like these days.
Are you saying that all of those black kids have Asperger's? I don't believe that. It is part of their culture. Black kids are more independent. They do not have the urge to be a slave bred into them the way white people do. White people are docile. They do most anything you tell them to. That is why they are so good in the corporate world. They will sit at a desk pressing keys like a monkey for the entire day without a complaint.
I don't think that being spirited, independent, or having parents that do not know how to raise children is a reason to put an Asperger's label on someone.
In my opinion, lots of people have lost the ability or the knowledge of how to raise human beings properly. Human beings have energy. If you know this, you will treat people a certain way and raise kids a certain way. A way that is more knowledgeable about the relationship and interactions between people.
If you do not know or do not believe that people have energy, then things seem mysterious to you. People seem to behave in unpredicatable and capricious ways. It is not that people are unpredictable. It is that you do not know how to read the signs of what is going on with another person because you don't believe in energy. If their energy is getting angry and you keep pushing them...then they blow up and hit you.....you think the person went crazy and attacked you out of nowhere. But if you knew about energy, you would have felt them getting angry and you could have chosen another way to deal with the situation.
I think that by labeling something "Aspergers", it gives people a reason to quit. They can say "I have a disease, I am stuck". If you tell them the don't have a disease, ,hey just don't know about energy, their own energy, how to manage it and make it grow, and how to interact with other people's energy in a proper and healthy way, then instead of giving up, maybe they would go get a book or find a person to teach them about energy.
There is the defeatism of "I have Aspergers". Or the positive outlook of "I need to learn this energy stuff or whatever to make myself fit into society better and make myself a better person".
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I can hardly breathe for laughing...? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Happeh, you have missed your vocation. Instead of wasting your time peddling your 'theory' and convincing yourself that you re the only person with any intelligence in the world, you should have become a stand-up comedian.
I am not good in front of crowds. Although I do think up what I feel are funny jokes from time to time.
FYI,
1 - Last time I checked, I was a rather large, hairy, adult male. This suggests further that your powers of perception on teh intarweb are less than stellar.? ::)
2 - That wasn't a tantrum, pal. You have a long way to go before you succeed in pissing me off. I have a naturally foul mouth, I'm a working class English bloke. Duh. I was merely pointing out that you don't have a clue what you are talking about - I think I've made my point. :P :laugh:
I don't have a clue what I am talking about? Because I thought you were a woman?
Maybe you ought to consider that your speech mannerism portray yourself as womanish, before you tell other people they are reaching wrong conclusions. ;)
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Or on the other hand you could take your head out of your arse before using your keyboard. :P :laugh:
By the way, I'm secure enough not to be that bothered whether some dullard on the net thinks I might not be a bloke. I just find it hilarious when you make an ad hominem attack on me on that faulty premise.
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and then, on top of that, i have to deal with ignorant cunts like you telling me that i should try even harder.
Did I say that?
no, that was not your exact wording. but it was the general meaning of your post.
What makes no sense to me is that you act like you are alone.
no. i am quite aware that there are others "like me" and that there are people, out there, who are far, far worse off than me. but, that doesn't make my difficulties any less real.
The majority of the people in the world are just like you.
oh, really. so, the majority of people in the world find it as challenging to communicate with members of their own family as they do with complete strangers, do they? when growing-up, did the majority of people in the world prefer to collect pieces of fluff (fibres off clothing etc) rather than play with other children, as i did? if the majority of people in the world are just like me, then i won't get any strange looks off people when fail to resist the urge to rock myself and flap my hands in public, will i?
I don't agree. I think it is easy to say that "bad behavior" is Asperger's. I think that is an excuse.
AS is not simply "bad" behaviour. it is a set of specific cognitive differences that have been observed and verified by many qualified specialist doctors. although, i don't expect you ?to appreciate the significance of good, old-fashioned scientific research, Happeh. ?::)
I think that by labeling something "Aspergers", it gives people a reason to quit. They can say "I have a disease, I am stuck". If you tell them the don't have a disease, ,hey just don't know about energy, their own energy, how to manage it and make it grow, and how to interact with other people's energy in a proper and healthy way, then instead of giving up, maybe they would go get a book or find a person to teach them about energy.
i cannot speak for everyone but, personally, i have made my best progress since i found out that i have AS (age 22). having my problem areas identified for me has helped me to improve which faults it is within my power to change. having said that, i have also stopped blaming myself for the things that i cannot change, no matter how hard i try. as you can imagine, my psychological health has benefited greatly from this.
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Happeh confession time, your a scientologist arn't you it sounds like all that pseudo-anti-psychology/psychiatricry mental health does not exist crap. Funny that there actually is a very significant and powerful argument to be made against psychology and here you are nit picking at people for "how disabled are you, your not really your a normalized person with a label" Well disability is a social construct but its also linked with the human body and its the most utterly rare thing in the universe for anyone to go through life without any kind of disability being afflicted on them. Infact the ironcy is that I can't distinguish you from a radical disability rights nutcase who would be on the polar end of this pseudo argument your trying unsuccesfully to make because objective rationale thinking has yet to take hold here.
Am I disabled? No I can walk, talk, I have an IQ medically speaking in the top 2% of the UK population. Who disables me? Society does and thats because its a social construct but the physically and intellectually disabaled people of this world experiance it too. Ive never said to any organisation or body I am disabled, I do not believe I am and I have neglected claiming various government benefits to protest that.
Sexuality is a social construct, ethnic minorities are social construct, gender is a social construct. Its so oversimplifying of a person here to simply say oh your normal yadada. I have met omega lady face to face and I can tell you she does have communication difficulty and for you to simply say "try harder stop thinking your a cripple" is immensly patronising for someone, its like telling a rape victim to get over it quite frankly. Most people become pro-active in improving their life others want to become reactionary because they are so reduced as a person that it is all their life has become worth in order to carry on a false hope of living a life.
I dont follow your oversimplistic assumptive and naive argument at all and unless you are an experianced academic/activist or have been involved in disability rights, working with any kind of disabaled population or have studied disability rights I think you've no place really trying to tell people anything if its just you sitting down being your own sociologist on the internet go out and prove something before you come on here and tell people how to run their life.
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happeh, if i am a "normalised person with a label who should try harder", how come i've been trying my fucking damnedest for over 40 years, and yet STILL feel practically suicidal because i can't do things most other people take for granted?
you patronising cunt.
sorry about the lack of intelligent and pithy verbiage, but you picked exactly the wrong time to start banging on about AS being a "trendy label".
go fuck youself with one of your highlighting pens.
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I'm sorry -- and I know this is fucking childish (do I give a shit?) -- but...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Shuggy/GOFUCKYOURSELF.png
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I don't agree. I think it is easy to say that "bad behavior" is Asperger's. I think that is an excuse.
Have you ever been around black kids? Black kids are hell. Really. They will not listen, they yell and scream and fight. It is a nightmare. Ask any teacher. Read your newspaper to see what school is like these days.
Are you saying that all of those black kids have Asperger's? I don't believe that. It is part of their culture. Black kids are more independent. They do not have the urge to be a slave bred into them the way white people do. White people are docile. They do most anything you tell them to. That is why they are so good in the corporate world. They will sit at a desk pressing keys like a monkey for the entire day without a complaint.
I don't think that being spirited, independent, or having parents that do not know how to raise children is a reason to put an Asperger's label on someone.
In my opinion, lots of people have lost the ability or the knowledge of how to raise human beings properly. Human beings have energy. If you know this, you will treat people a certain way and raise kids a certain way. A way that is more knowledgeable about the relationship and interactions between people.
If you do not know or do not believe that people have energy, then things seem mysterious to you. People seem to behave in unpredicatable and capricious ways. It is not that people are unpredictable. It is that you do not know how to read the signs of what is going on with another person because you don't believe in energy. If their energy is getting angry and you keep pushing them...then they blow up and hit you.....you think the person went crazy and attacked you out of nowhere. But if you knew about energy, you would have felt them getting angry and you could have chosen another way to deal with the situation.
How many children have you raised, Happeh? Judging based on your nonsensical drivel on the subject of parenting, I would guess the number is zero.
How many black people do you know well, Happeh? I would guess from what you said about the behavior of 'black kids' in such a generalized way, the answer to that is also zero. It seems extremely racist and highly insulting to make such generalizations about people, based only on the color of their skin. Are you a racist, Happeh?
Finally, how many people with Asperger Syndrome or some other ASD do you know well, Happeh? Based on your comments about us, I would guess this number is also zero. It would be better for you to get to know as individuals some people who are different from you instead of making all these unfounded generalizations about them. Asperger Syndrome is not an excuse for bad behavior, but there are some definite differences that make some things more difficult for people with AS or another ASD than they are for people who are considered neurotypical, and those difficulties should be taken into account when dealing with people.
I think that by labeling something "Aspergers", it gives people a reason to quit. They can say "I have a disease, I am stuck". If you tell them the don't have a disease, ,hey just don't know about energy, their own energy, how to manage it and make it grow, and how to interact with other people's energy in a proper and healthy way, then instead of giving up, maybe they would go get a book or find a person to teach them about energy.
There is the defeatism of "I have Aspergers". Or the positive outlook of "I need to learn this energy stuff or whatever to make myself fit into society better and make myself a better person".
Do you really think you are the first person to suggest we should just try harder to fit into society? Do you think that idea has never occurred to us before? Do you think our problem is that we just give up and we don't even try? I guess I should not be surprised by this because you seem to make generalizations about people all the time without knowing facts.
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heppah,
do you admit yet that purposeful insanity kicked your enlarged arse over the masterbation issue.
and that people on this website are masterbating even more than before you showed up with your enlightened theory.
no you have hijacked a thread which goes to the very foundation of the people on this website (bettement issues for HFA).
are you so small a person that you cannot show support for people simly because they wank their noodle or fiddle their diddle? why don't you start your own thread about some theories of yours and allow the people to discuss the merits of them. because quite frankly i am a little broken hearted to see what you have reduced yourself to.
BTW-you are not even close to being banned yet. if in fact that is your personal little competition game. but keep up the good work nontheless, you are making some people who are unsure of themselves to begin to feel confidence, as opposed to your ignorance.
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back on topic pls
Im going away for the weekend.
When I return (now im off uni for 5 weeks) im gonna post up feedback from the Nordic talk on disability I attended for discussion, it was very interesting.
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bump!
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That Happeh sure had some unique views. I wonder if they had AS?