Author Topic: Evolution: the fight  (Read 2202 times)

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2007, 04:38:40 PM »
.........Don't make me recite the hymn.

You can recite it all you want, as I ream out your love tunnel sweetiepie.  :-*

Offline Calandale

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2007, 07:18:59 PM »
Wait, how?!  Science presumes a natural explanation, and that's about the beginning and end of its 'assumptions'; everything else is open to debate.  And even that does not fit the context you are describing.

Science presupposes that observations reflect
an underlying reality. It presupposes the principle
of cause and effect, and reproducibility of events.
All these things SEEM fairly likely, to our common
perception, but none are firmly established, nor has
any axiomatization taken place to give a clear founding
of just WHAT faith science is based upon.

(I'm lucky I found this, in such a massive post. I usually skip
such large walls of text. If I don't respond to something, that's
probably the raison).

Quote
If someone wants an answer to a fundamental question, science is not an appropriate tool, which means that its assumptions are of an entirely different kind from the false dichotomy you have constructed above.  The assumptions of science never presume to describe the fundamental nature of the universe, or even to describe anything.  Assumptions of that kind have no place in the scientific world.

Actually, they very much DO presume to describe
the nature. They presuppose that it is understandable
through means which are unprovable. THAT assumption
lays a terrible restriction on what is reasonable and not.

See, the problem is that those who have faith in science
simply dismiss all discussions OUTSIDE the realm of scientific
'knowledge', which absolutely prevents them from even seeing
what their faith is built upon.


Offline morthaur

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2007, 10:36:52 PM »
Science presupposes that observations reflect
an underlying reality.
Not always, and certainly not in some fields!  It is not a solid presupposition so much as a working assumption that necessarily guides work.  In this way it is a bit like Descartes' notion that some things are simply not able to be doubted if one is to solve any problems.

It presupposes the principle
of cause and effect, and reproducibility of events.
For the former, certainly not in modern physics, which has frequently worked to overturn causality entirely.  As for reproducibility, this also breaks down in quantum mechanics, yet you are correct that studies aim for it, as it is impossible to produce a working theory of something if it is a freak anomaly!  ;D

All these things SEEM fairly likely, to our common
perception, but none are firmly established, nor has
any axiomatization taken place to give a clear founding
of just WHAT faith science is based upon.
The philosophy of science is filled with arguments like this, though.  Frequently what will come out in my expressions are a particular side in that debate, so I freely admit to a certain bias.  I'm also a historian of science and not a scientist, so my perspectives and orientation to the field are certainly coloured by a long view, and by a more radical scepticism.

Quote
If someone wants an answer to a fundamental question, science is not an appropriate tool, which means that its assumptions are of an entirely different kind from the false dichotomy you have constructed above.  The assumptions of science never presume to describe the fundamental nature of the universe, or even to describe anything.  Assumptions of that kind have no place in the scientific world.
Actually, they very much DO presume to describe
the nature. They presuppose that it is understandable
through means which are unprovable. THAT assumption
lays a terrible restriction on what is reasonable and not.

See, the problem is that those who have faith in science
simply dismiss all discussions OUTSIDE the realm of scientific
'knowledge', which absolutely prevents them from even seeing
what their faith is built upon.
I can see your point, I think, but I do not agree with the analysis.  Science is not about proving, as answers are both contingent and tentative.  It is not a simple matter of scientists missing other solutions because their 'faith' blinds them to it.  It actually reflects an intentional limiting of the epistemological playing field, which comes from the desire to locate naturalistic answers which can be studied and (as you note) reproduced (even if only in an equation), etc.  It is a bias created not to blind a discipline, but to define it; to make it into a particular kind of discipline and a particular kind of tool.

And I don't think that scientists all 'dismiss' discussions outside their institutional limitations, but they do dismiss non-scientific approaches from being called science, just as they generally resist making scientific approaches into dogmatic answers to fundamental questions.  Science is a way of thinking only, a tool, and not a comprehensive belief system that restricts one from pursuing certain lines of reasoning (no matter what Richard Dawkins says!).  There are, you know, plenty of religious scientists, even, and many who argue that science and religion should not overlap at all (cf. Stephen Jay Gould).  But unfortunately, many other scientists do fall into the bad habit of describing their work as reflecting an objective reality which can be understood entirely.  This seems to be somewhat an aberration as far as the guiding ethos of both the discipline & world-view goes, at least in my reading of it all.

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2007, 10:46:13 PM »
morthaur, I think that we are
more or less in agreement. The
problem is with those who simply
turn to science as the ONLY means
of determining truth. It doesn't even
pretend to be doing so, yet your common
educated person tends to simply dismiss
any other path, without even looking at
the underlying shortcomings which are
present in the scientific view. I see this
as every bit as close-minded as those who
thump their bibles, and say, 'tis so for it's
in HERE - and don't look for the flaws inherent
in that book.

Indeed, most of our common experience tends
to lend a great deal of credence to the scientific
methodology, but what is particularly troublesome
to me is those who try and ask for scientific evidence
of things which can have NO such evidence, by their
very nature.

Offline morthaur

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2007, 11:25:37 PM »
Indeed, most of our common experience tends
to lend a great deal of credence to the scientific
methodology, but what is particularly troublesome
to me is those who try and ask for scientific evidence
of things which can have NO such evidence, by their
very nature.
We agree completely in this.  People who ask for proof of G-d's existence or non-existence are missing the point.  One can use scientific reason to make a case that a particular idea (e.g., G-d) is likely or unlikely, but science cannot prove anything at all in this area and others like it, and it is unreasonable of some to presume that it can.  If you need certainty in life, science is not the place to turn!

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2007, 11:43:24 PM »
My question is this We like to explain everything but the more that gets explained then there are more questions to explain in the end.

The more answers the more questions there are.

Even though somethings can not yet be explained do not mean it not true or false in the end.

We may be Living in the Information Age but We still don't have all the answers and will never will either.

Even the unexplainable may one day be explainable.

Maybe one day a Theory of Everthing may yet explain the unexplainable.
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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2007, 02:23:28 AM »
We may be Living in the Information Age but We still don't have all the answers and will never will either.

Even the unexplainable may one day be explainable.

The contradiction is beautiful.

Offline Leto729

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2007, 03:57:21 AM »
We may be Living in the Information Age but We still don't have all the answers and will never will either.

Even the unexplainable may one day be explainable.

The contradiction is beautiful.
How is this a contradiction?
Guardian of the Empire

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2007, 04:00:30 AM »
We may be Living in the Information Age but We still don't have all the answers and will never will either.

Even the unexplainable may one day be explainable.

The contradiction is beautiful.
How is this a contradiction?

 :laugh:

Offline Leto729

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 06:00:12 PM »
We may be Living in the Information Age but We still don't have all the answers and will never will either.

Even the unexplainable may one day be explainable.

The contradiction is beautiful.
How is this a contradiction?

 :laugh:
You never did answer My question.
Guardian of the Empire

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2007, 06:03:25 PM »
Ah, not used to using standard logic?

Fair enough. The bolded statements, particularly
the use of NEVER and MAY, when used in reference
to the same point, are what is commonly called a contradiction.

Hope that helps.

I think I see why you voted AGAINST the
option which contained all of the points that
you wanted, in the WC entrance requirements
now.

Offline Leto729

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2007, 11:46:57 PM »
Ah, not used to using standard logic?

Fair enough. The bolded statements, particularly
the use of NEVER and MAY, when used in reference
to the same point, are what is commonly called a contradiction.

Hope that helps.

I think I see why you voted AGAINST the
option which contained all of the points that
you wanted, in the WC entrance requirements
now.
So what do You see in My vote?
Guardian of the Empire

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2007, 12:05:37 AM »
God Pwns.

i'm in the God Pwns camp.

your silly arguments can't sway my conviction!
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2007, 12:10:09 AM »
Ah, not used to using standard logic?

Fair enough. The bolded statements, particularly
the use of NEVER and MAY, when used in reference
to the same point, are what is commonly called a contradiction.

Hope that helps.

I think I see why you voted AGAINST the
option which contained all of the points that
you wanted, in the WC entrance requirements
now.
So what do You see in My vote?

Another clear contradiction.

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Re: Evolution: the fight
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2007, 12:25:10 AM »
My uncle's a creationist. Last time I saw him I got sucked into a two hour discussion on it because I was too polite to be honest. Incidentally, he was also arrested for stockpiling weapons in the desert or something... I think his ultimate plan was to fly over Sudan and drop bibles to try to get the Muslims to convert. Made the papers and everything.
!!Super atomic enema!!