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Author Topic: Laura Loomer strikes again...  (Read 1197 times)

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2018, 08:12:02 AM »
Clever Calandale. Perhaps you are right (Right). I will check because I am genuinely interested. Perhaps my "Liberal (read....not Progressive) principles have metamorphised rather than stayed static whilst the rest of the Left has marched further Left from me.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2018, 04:05:35 PM »
Al, correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't you consider Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party to be a bunch of leftists?
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline odeon

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2018, 05:02:31 PM »
Oh, Al's just confused because there's "socialism" in "national socialism" and he's a bit dense.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2018, 05:06:06 PM »
Oh, Al's just confused because there's "socialism" in "national socialism" and he's a bit dense.

If you consider Hitler and the Nazis to be left of centre, that leaves a lot of room for all sorts of ideas to be considered leftist.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline odeon

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2018, 05:21:35 PM »
Oh, Al's just confused because there's "socialism" in "national socialism" and he's a bit dense.

If you consider Hitler and the Nazis to be left of centre, that leaves a lot of room for all sorts of ideas to be considered leftist.

Yes. Like Al.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Calandale

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2018, 05:24:26 PM »
Oh, Al's just confused because there's "socialism" in "national socialism" and he's a bit dense.

If you consider Hitler and the Nazis to be left of centre, that leaves a lot of room for all sorts of ideas to be considered leftist.

And it's a common thought on the right - that fascism, because of the heavy handed government, is leftist.
They paint the distinction between left and right entirely in terms of government intervention. This is a very
clear and simple way to define the spectrum.

Yet, the strange thing is that, regardless of these 'ideals', policies of the right often don't align that way,
fitting more into the less clear, and more mainstream view that it is the policies which define the spectrum.

Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 07:18:43 PM »
Al, correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't you consider Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party to be a bunch of leftists?

Their ideology originated from the left, they were anti-capitalist socialists until they came to power and realized they needed to make deals with corporations in order to get anything done.

The only real difference from pre 1933 Nazis and Communists was that the Marxists were an international movement that didn't care about race (at least on the surface) while the Nazis were clear that their brand of socialism was exclusively for the "master race".

Other than that, they were two peas in a pod.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2018, 03:03:02 AM »
Al, correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't you consider Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party to be a bunch of leftists?

Their ideology originated from the left, they were anti-capitalist socialists until they came to power and realized they needed to make deals with corporations in order to get anything done.

The only real difference from pre 1933 Nazis and Communists was that the Marxists were an international movement that didn't care about race (at least on the surface) while the Nazis were clear that their brand of socialism was exclusively for the "master race".

Other than that, they were two peas in a pod.

Yes and more than that. From what Political camp do you believe they shared the belief of racial superiority and of seizing land and assets of minorities to allow the national citizens more? I mean people can play the "big switch" until the cows come home BUT this was prior to the supposed big switch. What pre-1950's American political party was expressing the kind of racial bigotry, supremacy, and immorality of the above? I will give you the hint : NOT Republicans.

Left or Right touted Gun Confiscations and Gun Control?

Left or Right believed in Big Government Socialism?

It is of course not to say that he was not evil nor clinically insane nor correct in what he did.

But WAS he Right or Left?
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Calandale

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2018, 09:44:12 AM »
The truth is that right vs. left don't aptly describe conservative. Conservativism properly is an attempt
to hew to the older standards and views. In the 19th century, there was no question that this centered
on authoritarian rule in most countries.

In the US, it was better aligned with classical liberal laissez-faire principles.

One problem though was (and this is the true curse of conservatism) things changed. So, in order to
remain relevant, conservative principles became aligned with robust foreign policy, often focused on
propping up right-wing regimes (conservative in their own countries), sometimes enhanced federal
law enforcement and prosecution (a la the McCarthy excesses) Too, the laissez-faire principles, which
favored the wealthy, generated an alignment between conservatives and big business, which, instead of
being quite so laissez-faire, started incorporating legal structures and mechanisms to tilt the playing
field further.

Liberalism also went through its shifts in meaning, but less rooted in traditional ideas. It was the negation
of conservatism. Early on, this ment removal of the aristocratic barriers, but as time went on, it included
removing wealth barriers, to give everyone a fairer shake. The first was a breaking down of state limitations,
whilst the latter was creating new ones.

One must live with how the labels evolve though. And that evolution includes seeing the facists as right wing
despots and the communists and left wing ones - based largely upon whether they support the existing structures
of wealth and power, or seek to create a new one. :P

Until recently, there was little sign of any strong tendencies toward a political move toward either flavor of
authoritarian rule in the US. MacArthur, Long, and some others embodied certain aspects, but never garnered
the support to lead a major party. Maybe Nixon came closest, seeming to believe he was above the law, but
he didn't tend to brag about it outright.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2018, 01:16:15 PM »
Yes. Conservatism tend to my mind to have much to do with a want of traditional values and principles. A lack of flexibility in reacting to new values, trends or societal mores. Liberalism has been more open-minded and accepting of these. The Conservatives are about reducing the influence of the government and giving people more power. The Liberals are about recognising the Government as a safety net and a regulating force in society.

I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 04:02:30 PM »
I think as a further point to the above, that neither principle is inherently good or bad. In the same way that I do not think people believing in God is inherently bad or not believing in God is inherently bad.

Moderation tends to be okay with political ideas. The problem is the extremists and when the hardliners get any kind of political or cultural capital.

As soon as you get one side actively seeking to undermine, censor, divest, dehumanizing the other, then the only answer is for the opposing camp to meet them on the same terms and let the best side win.

That is one of the reasons I thought the Russia collusion thing and special counsel was so bad. Apart from the whole accusation and smear in search for a crime, it actually green lights the other side to use similar tactics.

It is a never-ending race to the bottom. It has in my mind risen because of the Progressivism that has got it hooks into so much of the cultural and because both moderate Liberals and Moderate Conservatives were cowed by Progressives who regularly called anyone who questioned them a bigot and sought to deplatform them (in an Authoritarian move disguised as protecting and being moral) it is the same as the motive of the Religious Right of years ago. The counter to this is Trump.

I would be happy for the power to shift to the centre and into the hands of moderates from either side but there will be some pain before that happens. Progressives need to have power wrested from them and hopefully the pendulum will not go hard right after that.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 10:22:12 PM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Calandale

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2018, 05:30:56 PM »
'Moderate' too moves about though. And not always monolithically.

For example, some  issues (racial, sexual preference) have swung far to the
traditional Democrat side, while others (tax rate, unions) away. It's easier
to use the party labels, as those are less pejorative, and easier to directly
align to policies.

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2018, 08:10:20 PM »
I agree that the traditional labels of left and right, or conservative and progressive, are not nearly as clearly defined as they could be.

Conservatives tend to be pro-business and seek to encourage the success of business. And pro-law-and-order as well. And oppose socially progressive movements like feminism and marriage equality.

From my perspective I can see a lot of progressives in American politics but not a lot of leftists apart from Bernie Sanders.

In Australia there is a resurgence of workers' union activism, and that is a good thing IMO. We can't keep lurching to the right forever.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2018, 05:20:40 AM »
I agree that the traditional labels of left and right, or conservative and progressive, are not nearly as clearly defined as they could be.

Conservatives tend to be pro-business and seek to encourage the success of business. And pro-law-and-order as well. And oppose socially progressive movements like feminism and marriage equality.

From my perspective I can see a lot of progressives in American politics but not a lot of leftists apart from Bernie Sanders.

In Australia there is a resurgence of workers' union activism, and that is a good thing IMO. We can't keep lurching to the right forever.

Oh please, the Universities (and now schools) have been Progressive bastions for decades and the Media certainly has been.

There are definitely a lot of popular radio hosts that push Right Wingery

The Liberals here are politically probably close to where Bill Clinton was. Labour is further Left and the Greenies further Left still.


I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Calandale

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Re: Laura Loomer strikes again...
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2018, 06:34:07 AM »

The Liberals here are politically probably close to where Bill Clinton was.

Which is somewhat to the right of Nixon.