Author Topic: No Spanking Laws  (Read 11664 times)

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Offline Nomaken

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2007, 09:54:01 PM »
So where is it still legal to physically punish your kids?  I need to start learning their language.
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
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Offline Callaway

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2007, 10:39:33 PM »
So where is it still legal to physically punish your kids?  I need to start learning their language.

It is legal to physically punish your own child in all 50 states of the United States with the possible exception of California, although it is illegal to physically abuse them.  For example, you are legally permitted to spank your own child on the bottom with your hand, but you are not permitted to leave marks or bruises while administering this spanking. 

Offline Nomaken

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2007, 10:42:14 PM »
I see... so it pays to feed your kids right so they don't bruise easily....


j/k  :laugh:
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
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We're all fucked, it helps to remember that.

Offline Callaway

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2007, 10:43:28 PM »
I bruise easily.  What should I eat so I don't?

Teejay

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2007, 10:44:07 PM »
In my state Victoria it is illegal to physically punish kids nowadays  :grrr:

Offline Callaway

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2007, 10:45:10 PM »
So, were you ever spanked when you were a kid, Teejay?

Offline Nomaken

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2007, 10:45:43 PM »
Whatever vitamin is in seaweed.  My mother bruised easily and her doctor always recommended seaweed, but she decided to hell with it if that is the only way.
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
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We're all fucked, it helps to remember that.

Offline McGiver

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2007, 10:48:49 PM »
nomaken, if you were my son i would have bent you over my knee several times.
Misunderstood.

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2007, 10:50:05 PM »
 :laugh:

Offline Nomaken

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2007, 10:53:00 PM »
I wish you would have.  My father is a complete pussy.  (His father was much MUCH more strict, and i am pretty sure he overreacted by using no discipline for his kid)
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
Reverence is fine, Sanctity is silly.
We're all fucked, it helps to remember that.

Offline McGiver

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2007, 10:58:09 PM »
I wish you would have.  My father is a complete pussy.  (His father was much MUCH more strict, and i am pretty sure he overreacted by using no discipline for his kid)
ok then, i will.  just don't tell mummy odeon.
Misunderstood.

Hypnotica_Gaze

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2007, 11:25:26 PM »
I noticed this thread a couple of times when browsing thru during my PM pick ups and given i have alot of experience in this area and with the laws in question (and related proposals and laws currently in action) i felt i had to comment given how crap the thread was on such an important topic.

Odeon, do you think that the rise in violence in public schools today is due to parents who spank.  is that teaching them violence?

God, I hope not. While I'm against spanking, I do believe that the vast majority of parents that disagree with me on this are convinced that they do the right thing. It would be horrible if spanking would result in more violence.

You'd have to ask a psychologist or some kind of professional.

Actually it is a proven fact that the use of physical or mental punishment (which is what the fear of a smacking or beating is) is ineffective and can indeed be extremely counter productive, children who have been physically punished no matter how minor the spanking is, are more prone and likely to engage in antisocial conduct and offending behaviour (infact that has been proven). Many psychologist and academics are in support of a ban on corporal punishment in the family, not just because of the benefits for the children but for society as a whole. Sweden thanks to its ban on the use of corporal punishment in 1979 has led to many positive outcomes. There were many objectives of the ban, and many reasons for integrating such a ban, however the ban itself in Sweden had actually helped in a large way when it came to earlier identification of children at risk of abuse and therefore a major reduction in child abuse rates also a reduction in youth crime and youth suicide which has been noted by forensic and criminal psychologists (which has been shown in Sweden since 1979). Sweden even though it has some flaws in some other areas, actually has provided one of the best models of child protection (especially when it comes to violence), and its understandable why other countries have tried to emulate that. Italy took the positive note of it and has emulated it and even Israel has recently gotten envolved in the realisation that corporal punishment is in breach of human rights, has flaws when it comes to child protection, not to mention development later on.

The proposal for anti smacking (corporal punishment in the family) laws not just in the US, but even here in the UK are there or being proposed for a reason, there are many loopholes in the legal systems, and easy defences for parents when it comes to using physical and mental abuse (even in transparent abuse of a child). Which if any of you took the time to take a close look at the Law and studies in their own country aswell as others, also child protection services, and investigated a bit further elsewhere you would soon realise why so many people in the child protection and humanitarian sectors want these types of sanctions and laws to go through to give children the same protection and freedom from violence and freedom from fear of violence or threats that adults are free from and gifted with. Smacking a child doesnt just prove problematic for their psychological and isocial development, or problematic for people who work in child protection or in the legal services, but physical punishment of a child is actually also a breach of laws already present, its just a case of it hasnt really been challenged till recently (besides Sweden who did it in 79).

I could sit here and go through case by case where parents have gotten away with abusing their child both physically AND even mentally where it has been deemed lawful or their right or theyve believed it was their right, but have gotten away with it due to available defences and loopholes (which are too hard to close up without the use of a ban on corporal punishment like in Sweden), and let me tell you, anyone who is aware of what i am going on about or with any genuine experience or understanding of the way things work when it comes to child abuse, violence to children, mental abuse to children, problems with psychological, emotional and social development due to corporal punishment and the way their parents interpret or dish it out, and not to mention the many problems when it comes to child protection and using the law in relation to it, would understand the need for such laws to go through and be in support of them. Things are hard enough trying to protect children.

The defence of reasonable chastisement has been to blame for many parents and guardians getting away with even what most human beings would call extreme physical and/or mental abuse, children have been left with their abusers and emotionally damaged thanks to the barbaric outdated moronic assumption that parents have the god given right to physically punish their child aslong as they claim reasonable chastisement, they believe that the force used was what was required to reach the disciplinary goal, or because they believe they act from a reasonable and proper belief that the method of punishment used was an appropriate disciplinary measure.

You would also think that people would have more common sense when it comes to hitting a baby, but thats not true, especially in the UK where more than three quarters of one year olds, and more than half of all babies have been smacked and punished.

Section 58 of the Children Act 2004 is quite good here in the sense of how its tried to close loopholes but even then its got its escape loops and the professionals know that even it isnt good enough to address some of the problems, its just the best of the bunch, and a starting point, which most in the child protection services etc, hope will be developed further. (me being one)

Odeon you get a plus 1 from me for your stance on this issue, and you and your children are very lucky being in Sweden when it comes to the views on corporal punishment in the family and it being a country which offers wider protection for children compared to most. The rates and studies show exactly how more evolved your country is when it comes to the protection of children in relation to chastisement, physical punishment etc and the benefits of the laws that were introduced in 1979, especially in relation to the fantastic low levels of child abuse, violence, youth crime and youth suicide since it was put into action and your country welcomed it.

Your kids will benefit immensely from your non smacking views, but im sure you already know that and i am one of many who is thankful that your country paved the way when it came to child protection in this area. +1

There HG has spoken and has now disappeared back to her abode.

Offline Nomaken

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2007, 11:43:35 PM »
How can it be a proven fact when there is at least some evidence that shows it is effective at least some of the time?
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
Reverence is fine, Sanctity is silly.
We're all fucked, it helps to remember that.

Hypnotica_Gaze

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2007, 12:57:10 AM »
Well Nomaken take a look back over what i wrote.

In relation to your question even though it seems you have missed the point, i shall humour you and answer. It depends on what one means by effective (youve got to think not just in the short term but also long term and in relation to the way it actually affects the child in question etc, there are so many factors and what one may think was effective at the time, doesnt mean was or is effective in the long term or that it did their childs development any favours, in fact what a parent may think is effective at the time, quite often can turn out to be the opposite later on, (which is what has been proven time after time) there are also different interpretations of what a parent thinks is appropriate discipline and how often and when that should be administered and such, there is a very very thin line and then if you factor in the abusal of discipline givers, the loopholes in relation to child protection and so on its an even bigger can of worms and the problems get worse)  Yes some parents may believe that it is effective in what they want to accomplish in the short term etc,  however that doesnt mean it is harmless, doesnt have negative effects or consequences etc. Sure there will be instances where some kids are more resilient to physical (sometimes even mental) punishment (as some can be resilient to it, even in extreme cases where it is abuse), but the evidence and such, shows that the cons and negatives are larger, more frequent and more evident than the pros. Like i said, its a very thin line, and their has to be sanctions there to limit or control what even a parent does to their child, and protection available for ALL children so there are no loopholes especially for those who abuse their position. (Physical force doesnt need to be used)

As for the teaching right from wrong excuse, think that one through properly, should we also get rid of laws protecting adults and disabled people (even those who cant understand) from physical punishment, violence, fear of physical harm or impending physical punishment etc, and give them a good smack when they do something wrong (or when it is believed by someone else that theyve done wrong) and smack them into line or try mould them through physical discipline then justify it (bearing in mind we will all have different views on what appropriate discipline, physical punishment is etc). How many people with AS would be given a good kicking on a daily basis i wonder (given the apparent social problems, flaws in some areas etc) and would you really know or understand fully why people were smacking you? No doubt after a while youd get you were doing something wrong otherwise you wouldnt get smacked, and youd fear another smacking, but would you really understand fully why you were being hit? how do you think you would feel or how do you think it would affect you at the time and what about in the long term? How about the psychological repercussions etc, what would you really learn and take from it? How would you interpret it yourself?.

If you dont want a child to be free from physical punishment, fear of physical punishment, and to be free from the opportunity to be abused, then why should you be?
As human beings, we all deserve the right to live free from physical abuse, the fear of it and such, we all deserve our basic rights and to be protected from violence (including possible abuse of discipline and possible violence), our age is irrelevant, so why should we adults be gifted more protection than a child (who needs it more) or why should you look for the excuse to hit your child or is it because its simply easier than the alternative, if thats so, you should look more at improving your parenting skills or take some parenting classes, not all parents need to hit their child.




Hypnotica_Gaze

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2007, 01:01:06 AM »
There hope that answered your question Nomaken.
I could get into longer more detailed posts, but i dont think there is any point doing that here. I think ive said enough and all that i really wanted or needed to say, (and tried to condense it as best as i could) so its basically just time for me to disappear again.

Enjoy.