Educational

Author Topic: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.  (Read 948 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Calandale

  • Official sheep shagger of the aspie underclass
  • Elder
  • Postwhore Beyond The Pale
  • *****
  • Posts: 41236
  • Karma: -57
  • Gender: Male
  • peep
    • The Game Box: Live!
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2018, 07:41:34 PM »
Oh...anything under 80 proof doesn't count, right?


Or smaller than a liter.

Offline Lestat

  • Pharmaceutical dustbin of the autie elite
  • Elder
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8965
  • Karma: 451
  • Gender: Male
  • Homo stercore veteris, heterodiem
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2018, 09:50:19 PM »
I think there is a big difference between an actual alcoholic, who is physically dependent upon alcohol consumption, and a heavy drinker. Or those who go long  periods without drinking and then drink until they are staring at the ceiling.

IMO there aren't really any such thing as high-functioning alcoholics.
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

Requiescat in pacem, Wolfish, beloved of Pyraxis.

Offline Calandale

  • Official sheep shagger of the aspie underclass
  • Elder
  • Postwhore Beyond The Pale
  • *****
  • Posts: 41236
  • Karma: -57
  • Gender: Male
  • peep
    • The Game Box: Live!
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 10:09:32 PM »



IMO there aren't really any such thing as high-functioning alcoholics.

Oh, there are. One can be dependent without it necessarily causing problems.

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

  • Elder
  • Dedicated Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 4035
  • Karma: 421
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2018, 01:21:34 AM »



IMO there aren't really any such thing as high-functioning alcoholics.

Oh, there are. One can be dependent without it necessarily causing problems.

Alcoholism, or alcoholic, are notoriously difficult to define. I'm not going to try.

In terms of "high functioning alcoholics", how do you define "without... necessarily causing problems".

I think of a high functioning alcoholic as someone who might grab a few drinks to relax before a social event, drink a lot at that social event, and yet still be coherent and functional and fun to be around and able to stop at a point before they are unable to get themselves home. They may wake up in the morning feeling like crap and unable to remember much of what happened the night before, but they will get themselves to work and guzzle a few cups of coffee and use extra breath freshener and deodorant and get through to 5 pm, then head out for a few more drinks. And their liver might be rotting and they might find themselves becoming forgetful and needing to keep lists of things they need to do, but people who know them might not even realize that person has a serious drinking problem.

So a high functioning alcoholic may have major health problems because of their drinking, but they are able to "handle" their drinking and maintain a functional professional and social life over a significant period of time.


I have a friend who is very much a low-functioning alcoholic. Back around 1990 or 1991 he earned the nickname "Bernie" because he would drink until he passed out pretty much on a daily basis, and often by mid-morning, and then people would prop him up and do all sorts of funny things to him and take photos of him while he was passed out. He would pass out and wet himself in all sorts of situations. Pick up girls while he was barely able to walk, take them home and just pass out on the bed with them and piss on them (and they'd still call the next day). Get into fights. Fall down stairs. And yet after more than 30 years of doing this to himself.... his mind is still as sharp as a tack, his liver is functioning at 100% (he knows this because of all the tests they ran on him after he took a full strip - 10 tablets - of paracetamol due to a blinding headache after a particularly big night of drinking - and nearly died). That is what I would call a low-functioning alcoholic, and yet his health is seemingly sound and he turns 50 this year.


Myself? I had a stressful 6 month period where I would have classed myself as a high-functioning alcoholic. Removed from that situation I wasn't tempted to continue drinking. I still drink occasionally, maybe once every couple of months, and it can be heavy drinking. Last big night of drinking with a mate ended at 5 am after a 6 pack of cider, a 700 ml bottle of gin, and half a bottle of wine. That was just me - he had a six pack of beer, a 700 ml bottle of bourbon, and the other half bottle of wine. I had a bit of a hangover the next day.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 01:33:02 AM by Minister of silly walks »
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Lestat

  • Pharmaceutical dustbin of the autie elite
  • Elder
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8965
  • Karma: 451
  • Gender: Male
  • Homo stercore veteris, heterodiem
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2018, 06:00:16 AM »
Ugh hangovers are the pits ain't they. Evil little fuckers, hangovers are.

When I say alcoholic, I really meant those who have a physiological dependency upon alcohol-who will either drink (or take another, non-alcoholic GABAa agonist) or else they will go into delirium tremens.
There are a lot of problems with alcohol as a recreational drug, compared to most other recreational drugs. It is inherently toxic in all but very small amounts, and has toxic metabolites, puts a lot of strain on the body, as does all that nasty acetaldehyde that EtOH gets metabolized into. (when I say alcohol here, I mean C2H5OH; since there are other drinkable alcohols than ethyl alcohol, and some that are actually, IMO, a lot more likely to be a lot healthier when not abused. And cleaner in their effects too. Such as tertiary pentyl alcohol (2-methyl-butan-2-ol), I've tried tert.pentanol myself, and it can be dosed by just measuring out a couple of grams into a drink, or putting it into a gel-cap and swallowing it followed by chasing it with a glass of fruit juice and then done (its a lot more potent on a weight basis than EtOH), and being a tertiary alcohol, tert.pentanol, unlike primary or secondary alcohols, which get metabolized to aldehydes or ketones respectively, aldehydes in particular being
in  general very hard on the body, acetaldehyde being the metabolite of EtOH responsible for a large proportion of the nasty after-effects of alcohol, these tertiary alcohols can't be oxidized like that to form aldehydes or ketonic metabolites; and from the times I've tried 2-methyl-butan-2-ol it felt a HUGE amount cleaner than drinking ethanol ever has, no awful hangover.

Its dosed more like GHB is in terms of quantity, although the effects are quite different. Plus its also a lot more euphoric, and more dissociating than is ethyl alcohol, EtOH being the stuff people commonly drink, found in alcoholic beverages like beers, wines, cider, spirits etc. It felt so much healthier on the body physically it was quite astounding. I'd love to see it take off as an option, tertiary pentyl alcohol-based cocktails and the like would be great.

Also, for those poor unfortunate buggers who do ever have to experience such a nasty event, delirium tremens can do immense and  potentially permanent, excitotoxic harm, literally destroying neurons. And due to the very short duration of effect ethanol has, in those who do get themselves physiologically dependent in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms, they end up making it worse  and worse  and worse still due to the fact they have to drink round the clock, waking up multiple times  a night (and of course, such a badly disrupted sleep architecture is only going to contribute to stress too) in order to drink more alcohol so they can sleep a few more hours without withdrawing,  potentially going into seizures, the diet is usually impaired leading to thiamine deficiency which causes Wernicke's  encephalopathy, Wernicke-Korsakoff psychosis and Korsakoff's sydrome, where if not treated very rapidly (plus, IIRC alcohol also impairs absorption of thiamine directly, although I might be mistaken on that one, I seem to recall reading that it does though)

And with the directly neurotoxic at high levels effects, the poor vitamin B1 absorption and diet poor in B vitamins generally common amongst alcoholics just compounds things. Plus the very short duration makes it more or less impossible to taper using alcohol itself, and the physical withdrawal from alcohol or other GABAa-ergic CNS depressant drugs is both extremely unpleasant, can cause acute psychosis or psychotic breaks, chronic neurodegeneration, or brain damage that doesn't heal (excitotoxicity) and seizures. So that kind, the alcoholic physically dependent, they need to get help, and detox in-patient ideally, at worst outpatient. But better results, I should think would be had from an inpatient detox where it is supervised and can be combined with therapy. But the physically dependent alcoholic addict MUST get off it, and must be transferred onto a long-acting GABAergic depressant to prevent seizure and DTs, a phenobarb taper, or being put on diazepam plus an antiglutamatergic drug ideally too, and then the dosages slowly, slowly reduced.

Unlike say opioid withdrawal, which is a lot less likely to kill, alcohol or other depressant, GABAa agonist WDs can and frequently DO kill the subject.

Never really taken to alcohol myself. Its just got way too many side effects, nasty hangover effects, its more toxic than other such similar depressant drugs and it gives me nasty 'brain zaps' afterwards if I drink too much. Thats a large part of what makes me prefer most any other intoxicant, for my personal use, over drinking EtOH. I don't even like the smell of ethanol when I need it for certain ethanol-specific (over other alcohols) uses in the lab. It makes me retch a bit up inside.

Give me some t-pentanol any day, or if I'm to have ethanol, I'll take mine in the form of two molecules of ethanol condensed via dehydration to form one of the much preferable diethyl ether.

During prohibition, the polish, as well as americans took to drinking diethyl ether. It needs respectful, careful handling on a chemical/physical storage and maintenance level, and its highly flammable, but it doesn't give the vile hangovers ethanol does, and it has a long history also, of use via the inhaled vapor route, for some of the very first surgical anaesthesia, being less sedative (I.e GABAergic-like) and much more dissociative (ketamine or nitrous like) than alcohol. And mmm...I have to confess I've always loved the smell of ether. Even if I'm just using it in the lab, such as to mix a solution of grease, to be sprayed as an aerosol onto ground glass joint-ware, the sweet, sweet scent of the ether is just fantastic. One of my favourite of all smells in the lab is ether.
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

Requiescat in pacem, Wolfish, beloved of Pyraxis.

Offline Icequeen

  • News Box Slave
  • Insane Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 11988
  • Karma: 2026
  • Gender: Female
  • I peopled today.
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2018, 08:35:58 AM »
Tolerance is has a lot to do with body weight and frequency. It can be acquired over time.




IMO there aren't really any such thing as high-functioning alcoholics.

Oh, there are. One can be dependent without it necessarily causing problems.

We refer to them as "maintenance drinkers".

They hold down 9 to 5 jobs, don't miss work or show up late, pay their bills, visit their sick friends, help their neighbor...etc.

They drink every single day...all day, until they pass out in front of the tube at night. They know how many drinks/shots they need with coffee in the morning so that their hands won't shake.

They grab a sandwich, and a couple more drinks at lunch to get them up to quitting time.

Then they drink until the wife calls them for supper for the third time or until they get hungry and their food is done. They get the food and a case or a couple six packs to go. Rinse and repeat. They don't veer off that plan of action unless life hits them upside the head and something happens...then they might go on a 3 day bender, but they normally bounce back.

If something happens to them and they end up in the hospital for more than a couple of days you hope that they're honest with the doctors about the amount they consume or you try to tell someone else in the family that they need to be (if they don't already know).

Because detox is not pretty, and shit can start shutting down fairly fast if you can't maintain. Same as anyone else who is dependent on something. Except alcohol has less of a stigma behind it.


Offline Lestat

  • Pharmaceutical dustbin of the autie elite
  • Elder
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8965
  • Karma: 451
  • Gender: Male
  • Homo stercore veteris, heterodiem
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2018, 01:10:31 PM »
Alcohol is one of the ugliest of all recreational drugs to become physically dependent on. It does a huge amount of damage just maintaining, has a very short duration of action so is extremely difficult to taper on using alcohol itself, to the point of being very impractical, and dangerous, given the DTs can easily turn to seizures, and inherently, can cause alcoholic encephalopathy, and potential permanent brain damage 'wet brain'. Its a real ugly, dirty drug IMO alcohol. At least ethanol is.

I'd quite like some time to try 1-ethylnyl-cyclohexan-1-ol though, and once in a while I do find that I enjoy tertiary pentyl alcohol, but conventional ethyl alcohol as is found in all commercial alcoholic beverages, I just don't find it agrees with me at all.

Also, I might be wrong, but doesn't chronic (ethanol) consumption at high levels induce ethanol metabolism further? so further increasing clearance from the body as an adaptive measure to being...well...pickled alive :autism: ? that would make it more difficult still to detox without medical help (which in any physical downer dependence should always be sought given the danger GABAergic withdrawal poses)

Definitely far more benign social (and otherwise) euphoriants out there. And 95% of them a lot more pleasant and rewarding too.
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

Requiescat in pacem, Wolfish, beloved of Pyraxis.

Offline Calandale

  • Official sheep shagger of the aspie underclass
  • Elder
  • Postwhore Beyond The Pale
  • *****
  • Posts: 41236
  • Karma: -57
  • Gender: Male
  • peep
    • The Game Box: Live!
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2018, 02:49:07 PM »
Tolerance is has a lot to do with body weight and frequency. It can be acquired over time.




IMO there aren't really any such thing as high-functioning alcoholics.

Oh, there are. One can be dependent without it necessarily causing problems.

We refer to them as "maintenance drinkers".

They hold down 9 to 5 jobs, don't miss work or show up late, pay their bills, visit their sick friends, help their neighbor...etc.

They drink every single day...all day, until they pass out in front of the tube at night. They know how many drinks/shots they need with coffee in the morning so that their hands won't shake.



My father (somewhat) fits into the category. He drinks every night. The difference is there are NO side effects the next day.
He has self control issues, so cannot easily stop after just one drink. But, he can indeed 'stop at any time' by just not buying
booze. He's wandered from hard alcohol to beer to wine - and sometimes nothing at all for long stretches. Smoking was the
same way for him: smoked constantly (as I do know), couldn't cut back, but could stop completely.








Offline Yuri Bezmenov

  • Drunk-assed squadron leader
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 6663
  • Karma: 0
  • Communist propaganda is demoralizing the West.

Offline Lestat

  • Pharmaceutical dustbin of the autie elite
  • Elder
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8965
  • Karma: 451
  • Gender: Male
  • Homo stercore veteris, heterodiem
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2018, 03:38:01 PM »
Intriguingly, I've found, that it seems as though nicotine and tobacco are two entirely different beasts with respect to addictive properties.  TOBACCO is extremely addictive, yet nicotine itself, without the likes
of the small quantities of MAOI beta-carboline alkaloids doesn't have much addictive properties to me.

I do find smoking tobacco very addictive, but vaping pure nicotine, its neither highly addictive, or 'the same' as smoking tobacco. I'm going to have to do an experiment whereby I synthesize a small quantity of, and re-add in varying low concentrations, the MAO(a)I alkaloids of the harmala type found in tobacco, to see if it changes the effect to render it as addictive as tobacco products are, and to confirm my theory that these constituents are those responsible for it just not being the same, vaping vs smoking.

I wonder if a more natural (I.e featuring the traces of reversible MAOIs found in tobacco) modified e-liquid might be of more use to e-fag users who find the fail because it just 'isn't the same'
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

Requiescat in pacem, Wolfish, beloved of Pyraxis.

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

  • Elder
  • Dedicated Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 4035
  • Karma: 421
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2018, 10:43:32 PM »
Ugh. I started a new job once after more than a year out of work.

To combat moments of extreme sleepiness I bought the strongest otc "stay awake" pills I could get.

Caffeine has little effect on me in terms of helping me stay awake.

Anyway, the pills contained caffeine and nicotine. They worked. But I took too many and developed a kind of nicotine intolerance.

So for about 2 weeks after I stopped taking them my own body odour was nauseating to me because of the smell of nicotine coming out of my pores. Normally my body odour is only nauseating to other people.

And for a few months I was hypersensitive to the smell of nicotine (not the smell of burnt tobacco, the nicotine itself which smells s bit like stale urine). To the extent that I could walk within a couple of metres of someone on a footpath and, if they were a smoker, the smell of nicotine was overpowering and I'd have to hold my breath until the cloud of its smell had passed.

The hypersensitivity has diminished now, 5+ years later, but I'm still much more sensitive to the smell of nicotine than I ever was before that episode.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline renaeden

  • Complicated Case of the Aspie Elite
  • Caretaker Admin
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 25614
  • Karma: 2516
  • Gender: Female
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2018, 11:10:18 PM »
Caffeine doesn't keep me awake or have any other effect on me either. Nicotine sounds awful.
Mildly Cute in a Retarded Way
Tek'ma'tae

Offline Lestat

  • Pharmaceutical dustbin of the autie elite
  • Elder
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8965
  • Karma: 451
  • Gender: Male
  • Homo stercore veteris, heterodiem
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2018, 05:57:21 AM »
It can be alright depending on the dose. Its pretty toxic (around as toxic as KCN or white phosphorus, lethal dosage for an adult male of average build is between 30-60mg, average somewhere in the middle of that range IIRC), and too much, especially by mouth, although far below a lethal dose can make one feel really, really sick and shitty.

I remember it getting me once when I was in school and was attempting to use nicotine gum so it'd not be so obvious as being caught smoking a rollup or cigar etc. and too much too fast, once, had me feeling really shaky, heart rate feeling obvious and 'light', fluttery kind of sensation, that was downright unpleasant, and getting pale, sweating, dizzy and nauseous, the sort of thing that someone in a car about to crash might feel, right before they hit something, knowing its about to happen, mixed with the way it feels after having to puke your guts up, and feel really weakened and in a cold sweat.

Wasn't fun, not one bit. Although on the other hand I don't find I get any nasty side effects from vaping, although I've found that the nicotine mouth sprays, that deliver 1mg/spray can be too much and push  me towards feeling overloaded/overstimulated quite easily. Although as far as vaping goes I far prefer a higher strength homemade vape juice, using just nicotine, propylene glycol and flavoring, to commercial ones (plus it cuts out the glycerin, which can dehydrate  and eliminate to the highly toxic, probably carcinogenic/mutagenic and exceedingly acrid, lachrymatory (I.e like a tear-gas agent) and foul smelling unsaturated aldehyde prop-2-ene-al, or acrolein, which is definitely well known for being most unhealthy stuff indeed. Have worked with the pure stuff before, prepared by a chemical dehydration of glycerine, distilling it from sodium bisulfate, the distillate being acrolein and it was NOT an enjoyable experience or prospect I enjoy the thought of ever using it for anything ever again. Stinks like rancid fat and rubber tyres mixed together and set on fire, with quite a heavy hint of rot and decay and  has an awful choking, caustic effect if traces of the vapor are inhaled.)

So making my own allows me to cut out the glycerin, and to make it a higher nicotine content.
Beyond the pale. Way, way beyond the pale.

Requiescat in pacem, Wolfish, beloved of Pyraxis.

Online Genesis

  • The impostor who isn't from Old Country formerly known as Soviet Union
  • News Box Slave
  • Obsessive Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
  • Karma: 337
  • Gender: Male
  • The Blogger Was Here
    • Night Owl Redux
Re: I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2018, 07:34:26 PM »
Alcohol is something I tend to avoid.... only because of what I've seen it do to people at the ballpark...

Especially that one time in Greece when I was 16. Two Palestinians refugees so plastered thought I was a cop, when in actuality I pointed the camera at their direction with the lens still on.