Confederate Flag appreciation thread.

[Bastet]

No such thing as "Right to Free ideas"

Idiot. Why do you persist in your dumbness? Why!?

"what!? how can u say there are no free ideas :O"

I'm just saying there's nothing written like that, but you gave it a capital F as if you knew what you were talking about. You do that a lot, don't you. Makes you seem authoritative, when you aren't.

Cog dis cog dis cog dis


Inb4 he spells it out fully to sound smart


Cognitive dissonance

[RageBeoulve]

Suppose I have no choice but to weigh in here. The videos of the young men talking about the confederate flag earlier on in the thread were honest messages about it's true meaning.

Yes, perhaps some idiot national socialists have adopted that flag as their signature but this does not take from it's original meaning and how it legitimately branched out from it's cultural origins.

Zegh, I am not familiar with how the confederate flag manifests outside of America or how much non-natives know of it's meaning. This said, maybe I can show you something about what it really means and how much even people in my own country have forgotten.

http://www.mhpbooks.com/books/hillbilly-nationalists-urban-race-rebels-and-black-power/

Once upon a time the white lightning and black panthers stood shoulder to shoulder against oppressive fools, each wearing jackets with the confederate flag embossed on it's back. They meant to display a pride in American heritage and a disdain for it's destruction, the theft of it's resources.

The confederate flag has become something it is not even in the eyes of citizens of the united states, and this is intentionally caused by the morons these brave people once protested together.

I think you may want to look into this a bit more, Zegh. I know that you are stating that public opinion is a bit more powerful than people would like to believe, but think a bit harder. What if we all shirked from every single hard push, including that of radical terrorist groups or wealthy elites?


The decay and misery we see in society today would be far more advanced than it is, if people had simply become submissive in the face of adversity in the past.

[Gopher Gary]

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as the white man's flag. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals." -William Tappan Thompson

 

[RageBeoulve]

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as the white man's flag. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals." -William Tappan Thompson

 

Thanks for pointing out what extremist ideologues of the past have twisted an innocent cornerstone of American history, an OBJECT into. 


Do you know how you destroy ideas like racism and globalism? By waving them away as nonsense.

[Gopher Gary]

Hey, I think people should be able to have and use whatever flag they want and I think it's presence on public owned building should be left up to the voting public to decide, but that's a quote from the designer of one of the confederacy battle flags, and saying confederate flags have some original meaning that doesn't really involve white supremacy is like saying the civil war had nothing to do with slavery. A lot of history buffs would like to confine the history of the confederate flag to the context of the civil war, but it has more history than that, and even within that context it doesn't simply mean southern pride. Southern pride is what it means to some people now, and now is part of the history, and evidently that pride is deep enough that some people don't mind being construed as white supremacist by waving the confederate flag.   

[ZEGH8578]

I'm not even gonna backtrace this, but my initial point is that - emotions are important. Hear me out!

Riots come from bad emotions. In politics, "bad emotions" are called dissent
Dissent costs society, in the long run, more and more.

That is what a lot of this stuff is about, it's not about "feeling sorry for the feels and emotions and the tears and the cries", it's about containing dissent - which is a balancing act between allowing too much, and allowing too little.

Am I for it? Or against it?
For or against what, dissent? Flags? Idunno

Fine, my 5 cents on the flag... I am always in favor of the resurrection of original imagery, if that imagery is indeed innocent. I am amused by the thought of western punk bands trying to showcase the swastika, in order to give it new meaning, although I doubt the effectiveness.
I am completely fine w the swastika being used in various Asian decorations, including a well known Manga series, because intention is what's important.
Now, what's also important is that this manga does not cause costly dissent.
As for the confederate flag, well, there's allready been riots. A lot of people say and express "it's enough with that flag", while others disagree. Dissent has set root.

Now, in my opinion, the wisest thing would be to let go of the flag. But that does not mean that I am unaware of its history, or its meaning outside of racism.
I'm completely aware that the use of that flag, or derivates of - in actual American state flags, have not - this entire time - been motivated by racism. That would be ridiculous. They're motivated by a sense of pride in their history, regardless of the dark side of it.

But we keep coming back to the reality that a lot of people disagree.
That disagreement is a reality, which means the dissent is, and it has to be dealt with, because it can't be mocked, laughed or pointed-at away

[RageBeoulve]

I'm not even gonna backtrace this, but my initial point is that - emotions are important. Hear me out!

Riots come from bad emotions. In politics, "bad emotions" are called dissent
Dissent costs society, in the long run, more and more.

That is what a lot of this stuff is about, it's not about "feeling sorry for the feels and emotions and the tears and the cries", it's about containing dissent - which is a balancing act between allowing too much, and allowing too little.

Am I for it? Or against it?
For or against what, dissent? Flags? Idunno

And I strongly suggest that people have not historically given careful thought to what dissent they plug themselves into. That's all. These types of behaviors have not only ended countless lives, but they have essentially changed/destroyed history.

It is not a very good idea to change or destroy historical facts in order to preserve any idealism of the present. When this becomes necessary, the person with that idea is just plain wrong and must revise their methods.

[Gopher Gary]

I'm not even gonna backtrace this, but my initial point is that - emotions are important. Hear me out!

Riots come from bad emotions. In politics, "bad emotions" are called dissent
Dissent costs society, in the long run, more and more.

That is what a lot of this stuff is about, it's not about "feeling sorry for the feels and emotions and the tears and the cries", it's about containing dissent - which is a balancing act between allowing too much, and allowing too little.

Am I for it? Or against it?
For or against what, dissent? Flags? Idunno

Fine, my 5 cents on the flag... I am always in favor of the resurrection of original imagery, if that imagery is indeed innocent. I am amused by the thought of western punk bands trying to showcase the swastika, in order to give it new meaning, although I doubt the effectiveness.
I am completely fine w the swastika being used in various Asian decorations, including a well known Manga series, because intention is what's important.
Now, what's also important is that this manga does not cause costly dissent.
As for the confederate flag, well, there's allready been riots. A lot of people say and express "it's enough with that flag", while others disagree. Dissent has set root.

Now, in my opinion, the wisest thing would be to let go of the flag. But that does not mean that I am unaware of its history, or its meaning outside of racism.
I'm completely aware that the use of that flag, or derivates of - in actual American state flags, have not - this entire time - been motivated by racism. That would be ridiculous. They're motivated by a sense of pride in their history, regardless of the dark side of it.

But we keep coming back to the reality that a lot of people disagree.
That disagreement is a reality, which means the dissent is, and it has to be dealt with, because it can't be mocked, laughed or pointed-at away

Protests aren't riots, and no one is trying to ban the confederate flag in the US, that would be un-American. This issue is currently about the flag flying on public buildings, and yeah the public has the right to protest that. 

[RageBeoulve]

They certainly do have the right to try and erase something from public spaces, although that idea is a bit moronic when the thing that they are trying to erase obviously doesn't mean what they think it does. It becomes more irritating when they assemble a zombie horde of emotionally underdeveloped knuckleheads bent on destroying something based on a feeling rather than a fact.

It is most definitely the right of the public to deal in emotion rather than facts regarding the direction national or global culture takes, but is it wise? Will it yield any profit, or will it cause damage?

[Bastet]

I'm not even gonna backtrace this, but my initial point is that - emotions are important. Hear me out!

Riots come from bad emotions. In politics, "bad emotions" are called dissent
Dissent costs society, in the long run, more and more.

That is what a lot of this stuff is about, it's not about "feeling sorry for the feels and emotions and the tears and the cries", it's about containing dissent - which is a balancing act between allowing too much, and allowing too little.

Am I for it? Or against it?
For or against what, dissent? Flags? Idunno

And I strongly suggest that people have not historically given careful thought to what dissent they plug themselves into. That's all. These types of behaviors have not only ended countless lives, but they have essentially changed/destroyed history.

It is not a very good idea to change or destroy historical facts in order to preserve any idealism of the present. When this becomes necessary, the person with that idea is just plain wrong and must revise their methods.

This

[RageBeoulve]

Again, people have the right to do this. Liberty is paramount as far as I am concerned. All I can do is advise against this behavior, because I see it causing very harmful patterns that we have all seen occurring in the past. If we eventually all forget the holocaust over time, or the crusades, or the witch hunts, or etc...

Whats to stop them happening again? You never know what records from history might come in handy for preventing bad things from happening based on the lessons we learn from them. On the other side of the coin, great profit may also be gained from being mindful of these mistakes or catastrophes.

[Gopher Gary]

They certainly do have the right to try and erase something from public spaces, although that idea is a bit moronic when the thing that they are trying to erase obviously doesn't mean what they think it does. It becomes more irritating when they assemble a zombie horde of emotionally underdeveloped knuckleheads bent on destroying something based on a feeling rather than a fact.

It is most definitely the right of the public to deal in emotion rather than facts regarding the direction national or global culture takes, but is it wise? Will it yield any profit, or will it cause damage?

Evidentally what it means depends on the person, so yeah let the people speak. I personally don't see it's appropriate or even relevant to any public space other than a civil war memorial, a museum, or somewhere there's a whole line up of the history of American flags. 

[RageBeoulve]

They certainly do have the right to try and erase something from public spaces, although that idea is a bit moronic when the thing that they are trying to erase obviously doesn't mean what they think it does. It becomes more irritating when they assemble a zombie horde of emotionally underdeveloped knuckleheads bent on destroying something based on a feeling rather than a fact.

It is most definitely the right of the public to deal in emotion rather than facts regarding the direction national or global culture takes, but is it wise? Will it yield any profit, or will it cause damage?

Evidentally what it means depends on the person, so yeah let the people speak. I personally don't see it's appropriate or even relevant to any public space other than a civil war memorial. 

What it means is concrete, and set in historical fact. It does not depend on a person's belief. A person can believe in whatever truth or lies they choose, but those two things will always be the same regardless of their desire.

[RageBeoulve]

It is a shame to me that desire can build up to the point of distorting or even erasing truths, never to be completely understood again. See, this is an example of irrelevant desire. These are my feelings on the matter and they mean something to me and perhaps to my mother, but reality remains steadfast regardless of how I feel about anything.

Even if I was to mass an army of people strong enough to change the meaning of what I just spoke of completely enough that it would be derailed forever, the way of it would remain the same regardless of whether or not anyone understood it in the future. They would merely make mistakes and stumble over things they did not understand, because of my idiocy.

[Gopher Gary]

They certainly do have the right to try and erase something from public spaces, although that idea is a bit moronic when the thing that they are trying to erase obviously doesn't mean what they think it does. It becomes more irritating when they assemble a zombie horde of emotionally underdeveloped knuckleheads bent on destroying something based on a feeling rather than a fact.

It is most definitely the right of the public to deal in emotion rather than facts regarding the direction national or global culture takes, but is it wise? Will it yield any profit, or will it cause damage?

Evidentally what it means depends on the person, so yeah let the people speak. I personally don't see it's appropriate or even relevant to any public space other than a civil war memorial. 

What it means is concrete, and set in historical fact. It does not depend on a person's belief. A person can believe in whatever truth or lies they choose, but those two things will always be the same regardless of their desire.

Okay fine, we'll contain it to the context of the civil war. I'll just re-direct you back to the backwards quote from the flag designer. The historical fact is a meaning based in white supremacy, slavery, and civil war. Sure, it's a historical emblem and should be treated as such. I don't think atop state capitol buildings is how that's done.