Author Topic: Now listen here, feminism...  (Read 4007 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #345 on: November 26, 2014, 11:38:47 PM »
Quotas are discrimination.  ;)

We've moved past that now, mate. You need to harden the fuck up. :zoinks:
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #346 on: November 27, 2014, 12:20:53 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.

I was talking about academics, in this case, which is kind of different, around here at least.

OK, then again are you talking about about equal opportunities or equal outcomes. You know they are two very different things and not mutually inclusive (and that the answer is not "Yes")

Yes. :trollface:

Seriously, I thought I was being clear.

No, unfortunately not. Less academics in a field is NOT necessarily discrimination. It may be choice, simply that.
My little brother was a peer to the older sister of someone who went on to become an international star. If the other high schools in the area did not have that much success in generating actor, then it is not that they are doing anything wrong or that there was favoritism or discrimination.
Pretending to have a gripe about unequal outcome would be silly, in this instance.....as it would in Academics

Not necessarily discrimination, no, but if the numbers are consistently in favour of men in the higher positions, I'd say there's something fishy going on.

Not at all. There are for example more deaths and injuries in the Workplace for men vs women. In fact 95% are male (IE men are killed or injured doing their work at 1900% higher rate then females).
Is there "something fishy " here too OR is it the females CHOOSE of their own volition not to so the type of work that would make them likely to be a statistic?
If we apply this to academia, it certainly is very possible that it comes down to choice.
I love seeing hardcore Feminist ladies fire up about there not being enough female politicians,  I ask them why they personally are not running for office. They always give me choice base excuses.....which I sink their premise with
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Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline El

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #347 on: November 27, 2014, 09:22:16 AM »
Did I manage to invoke some odd footnote of Dunc's law?
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #348 on: November 27, 2014, 12:06:14 PM »
:gopher:

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #349 on: November 27, 2014, 08:27:31 PM »
Quotas are discrimination.  ;)

We've moved past that now, mate. You need to harden the fuck up. :zoinks:

You've moved past it. Apparently you're comfortable with discrimination, as long as it adheres to the political narratives of your choice. I tend to lean towards more universal principles.
 :CanofWorms: :mischief:
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #350 on: November 28, 2014, 02:06:38 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.

I was talking about academics, in this case, which is kind of different, around here at least.

OK, then again are you talking about about equal opportunities or equal outcomes. You know they are two very different things and not mutually inclusive (and that the answer is not "Yes")

Yes. :trollface:

Seriously, I thought I was being clear.

No, unfortunately not. Less academics in a field is NOT necessarily discrimination. It may be choice, simply that.
My little brother was a peer to the older sister of someone who went on to become an international star. If the other high schools in the area did not have that much success in generating actor, then it is not that they are doing anything wrong or that there was favoritism or discrimination.
Pretending to have a gripe about unequal outcome would be silly, in this instance.....as it would in Academics

Not necessarily discrimination, no, but if the numbers are consistently in favour of men in the higher positions, I'd say there's something fishy going on.

Not at all. There are for example more deaths and injuries in the Workplace for men vs women. In fact 95% are male (IE men are killed or injured doing their work at 1900% higher rate then females).
Is there "something fishy " here too OR is it the females CHOOSE of their own volition not to so the type of work that would make them likely to be a statistic?
If we apply this to academia, it certainly is very possible that it comes down to choice.
I love seeing hardcore Feminist ladies fire up about there not being enough female politicians,  I ask them why they personally are not running for office. They always give me choice base excuses.....which I sink their premise with

Because the causes to occupational deaths statistics are obviously comparable with the number of women in higher positions in academia? I have to say that this one I didn't see coming.

But there are other possible explanations. This one, for example.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #351 on: November 28, 2014, 02:07:47 AM »
Did I manage to invoke some odd footnote of Dunc's law?

Questioning autie advocacy immediately kills the thread?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #352 on: November 28, 2014, 02:08:45 AM »
Quotas are discrimination.  ;)

We've moved past that now, mate. You need to harden the fuck up. :zoinks:

You've moved past it. Apparently you're comfortable with discrimination, as long as it adheres to the political narratives of your choice. I tend to lean towards more universal principles.
 :CanofWorms: :mischief:

I'm comfortable with quotas? Really? Where did I say that?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #353 on: November 28, 2014, 02:09:28 AM »
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #354 on: November 28, 2014, 05:51:20 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.

I was talking about academics, in this case, which is kind of different, around here at least.

OK, then again are you talking about about equal opportunities or equal outcomes. You know they are two very different things and not mutually inclusive (and that the answer is not "Yes")

Yes. :trollface:

Seriously, I thought I was being clear.

No, unfortunately not. Less academics in a field is NOT necessarily discrimination. It may be choice, simply that.
My little brother was a peer to the older sister of someone who went on to become an international star. If the other high schools in the area did not have that much success in generating actor, then it is not that they are doing anything wrong or that there was favoritism or discrimination.
Pretending to have a gripe about unequal outcome would be silly, in this instance.....as it would in Academics

Not necessarily discrimination, no, but if the numbers are consistently in favour of men in the higher positions, I'd say there's something fishy going on.

Not at all. There are for example more deaths and injuries in the Workplace for men vs women. In fact 95% are male (IE men are killed or injured doing their work at 1900% higher rate then females).
Is there "something fishy " here too OR is it the females CHOOSE of their own volition not to so the type of work that would make them likely to be a statistic?
If we apply this to academia, it certainly is very possible that it comes down to choice.
I love seeing hardcore Feminist ladies fire up about there not being enough female politicians,  I ask them why they personally are not running for office. They always give me choice base excuses.....which I sink their premise with

Because the causes to occupational deaths statistics are obviously comparable with the number of women in higher positions in academia? I have to say that this one I didn't see coming.

But there are other possible explanations. This one, for example.

Yeah, it sounds like drawing a very low bow with this, but it isn't.
The reason of course is we are using it not to compare dangerous jobs and death with academia and the relative sedentary and safe intellectual pursuits we associate it with BUT rather the similarity on the issue that matters, why does one gender not factor as much in academia, why does one factor not factor as much in workplace death and injury.
This is the similarity. The answer for both is the same or similar versions of.

The problem to is that there is a desire to call difference in outcome as discrimination or sexism or what have you.
This is where I personally stand IF you give both genders teh same rights and same opportunities and options and protections against discrimination, then what you are left with is individual choice.
The only way you can stop people making career choices that you do not approve of, is to take away that freedom of choice. "YOU want to be a Psychologist? Too bad we need you to do Hard Science specialisation", "You want to be a hairdresser? No, we are down on numbers in your gender for high rise window washers"
IF you disagree with this, then you need to let go and let men and women chose whatever it is that they want.

I would have loved to have been a lawyer. I think I would have done well. I did not choose this path and regret it. I do not think I would have wanted someone insisting on it though. I prefer the ability as an adult to make the choices for myself.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline El

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #355 on: November 28, 2014, 08:59:47 AM »
Did I manage to invoke some odd footnote of Dunc's law?

Questioning autie advocacy immediately kills the thread?
Questioning my own past diagnosis.  (I think "NT" is an exaggeration, but I'm not far enough along the spectrum to call it anything.)

Also:  Fuck, I should have just let the peace reign.  I ruined it.  XD
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #356 on: November 28, 2014, 09:21:03 PM »
Quotas are discrimination.  ;)

We've moved past that now, mate. You need to harden the fuck up. :zoinks:

You've moved past it. Apparently you're comfortable with discrimination, as long as it adheres to the political narratives of your choice. I tend to lean towards more universal principles.
 :CanofWorms: :mischief:

I'm comfortable with quotas? Really? Where did I say that?

Then there is nothing to argue about, is there?  :green:
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #358 on: February 05, 2015, 07:04:14 PM »
bump.  This is pretty funny.