Iowa FTW

[TheoK]

Actually "legally blind" is a matter of legislation and quite clear. The details may differ between your country and mine, but not significantly, as I understand it.

Being "liable" will not help if the damage is already done.

Let's see...in Iowa a few blind people might get guns. They might mistakenly shoot innocent people when firing the guns in self-defence. In Sweden you are not allowed to carry a gun in self-defence at all, which means that an armed criminal or a criminal with a knife or just a physically stronger criminal or a number of criminals might rob, rape, beat and kill you without you being able to defend yourself.

So which gunlaw poses the greatest danger to a law-abiding citizen?

Statistically? Accidental shootings involving firearms in the home.

Counting accidents with guns is dishonest. It is like counting accidents with cars as cases where people are hit by cars on purpose.

And gunlaws are still not to protect you from other citizens, they are to protect the state from you.

Let's allow them to be fighter pilots, too. Plenty of visually impaired people out there should be allowed to realise their dreams, ffs.

 

[bodie]

I don't understand how your right to gun ownership is so encapsulating.  Just the mere mention of any form of gun 'control'  seems to spark a reaction like this.   

Is it really the be all and end all of life?   For people to exercise their right to bear arms.  Even if they can't see?

I may be mistaken, but I get the idea that this dominates the brains of some American's a bit too much.

Perhaps I don't 'get it' because I live in a different part of the world.   

I for my part never understood why not all people had the American view on guns, no matter their own gunlaws. How can you not think that owning a gun for self-defence is a right? It has puzzled me since I was 5 years old and my dad told me how hard it was to legally get a gun in Sweden vs. America.

I suppose I used to too.  I love gun's.  Used one in the army (although spent more time polishing and cleaning the mofo than firing it)

When I first moved into this house alone (before the urchin) i paid a lot of money for a Beretta pistol.  I was scared (Birmingham is twinned with scumsville) and had been burgled at my previous address.  I  came home to find them still upstairs ransacking my knickers drawer.  Hence the reason i got the pistol.

I rarely talk about it, and don't brag about it because it is gone.  One night while I was asleep on my sofa someone came through my patio door (ok ok it wasn't locked) and took the fucker from my hand.  While I slept.

Despite this, I still kept my views about owning a gun and that didn't change until I became a mom and this coincided with several 'massacre' incidents in the US involving children.  This made me believe that children have a right to grow up free from fear of being gunned down in their playground and that their right to do this supersedes anyone else's right to own a gun.  I know it is not that simple.  I can conveniently make it simple living in England. 

I ask you this with as much respect as possible... (seriously, no attempt at trolling)

Do you believe that another's rights end where your feelings begin?

Do you side with safety or freedom?

What if someone wanted to take away coffee because a child had a caffeine overdose? Would you have the same opinion?


What if someone wanted to take away cars because a child was hit by one? Would you have the same opinion?

I can't muster the minimal amount of energy required to answer your caffeine and car question.  I think my sarcasm would confuse you too much.

FWIW I really couldn't give two shits and a fuck if you have guns.  Stories of people shooting each other in America cause me little or no reaction.  Gangs, police, burglars - I am indifferent.  I wouldn't bother to comment if it was limited to these groups.

It isn't, though, is it? 

I can't speak for the world and his wife but I tend to take notice when kids are massacred.  Call me crazy,  but those tiny white coffins bother the hell out of me.

I don't have the solution.  Maybe some of the things suggested might not work.  Fucking try?  JUST TRY MAKING IT A LITTLE BIT HARDER FOR NUTTERS TO GET HOLD OF THESE WEAPONS!

Do nothing and the past will keep repeating.  Any potential nutjob  in the making already knows how to go out with a bang.  They know already  who to target to make 'world' news? 

Or just don't bother.  Keep your kids as sitting ducks.  Then whine again about your rights every time it happens.  If it hasn't already, it will soon become less shocking.  Hurt less.  You could even extend your 'rights for all' to kids themselves!  Opportunity knocks for someone to design a nice lightweight weapon to fit in a school satchel. 

My answer to you is about as respectful as your questions to me.   Still happy to talk to Rage or Lit who have not asked silly questions.

[Semicolon]

I don't understand how your right to gun ownership is so encapsulating.  Just the mere mention of any form of gun 'control'  seems to spark a reaction like this.   

Is it really the be all and end all of life?   For people to exercise their right to bear arms.  Even if they can't see?

I may be mistaken, but I get the idea that this dominates the brains of some American's a bit too much.

Perhaps I don't 'get it' because I live in a different part of the world.   

I for my part never understood why not all people had the American view on guns, no matter their own gunlaws. How can you not think that owning a gun for self-defence is a right? It has puzzled me since I was 5 years old and my dad told me how hard it was to legally get a gun in Sweden vs. America.

I suppose I used to too.  I love gun's.  Used one in the army (although spent more time polishing and cleaning the mofo than firing it)

When I first moved into this house alone (before the urchin) i paid a lot of money for a Beretta pistol.  I was scared (Birmingham is twinned with scumsville) and had been burgled at my previous address.  I  came home to find them still upstairs ransacking my knickers drawer.  Hence the reason i got the pistol.

I rarely talk about it, and don't brag about it because it is gone.  One night while I was asleep on my sofa someone came through my patio door (ok ok it wasn't locked) and took the fucker from my hand.  While I slept.

Despite this, I still kept my views about owning a gun and that didn't change until I became a mom and this coincided with several 'massacre' incidents in the US involving children.  This made me believe that children have a right to grow up free from fear of being gunned down in their playground and that their right to do this supersedes anyone else's right to own a gun.  I know it is not that simple.  I can conveniently make it simple living in England. 

I ask you this with as much respect as possible... (seriously, no attempt at trolling)

Do you believe that another's rights end where your feelings begin?

Do you side with safety or freedom?

What if someone wanted to take away coffee because a child had a caffeine overdose? Would you have the same opinion?


What if someone wanted to take away cars because a child was hit by one? Would you have the same opinion?

I can't muster the minimal amount of energy required to answer your caffeine and car question.  I think my sarcasm would confuse you too much.

FWIW I really couldn't give two shits and a fuck if you have guns.  Stories of people shooting each other in America cause me little or no reaction.  Gangs, police, burglars - I am indifferent.  I wouldn't bother to comment if it was limited to these groups.

It isn't, though, is it? 

I can't speak for the world and his wife but I tend to take notice when kids are massacred.  Call me crazy,  but those tiny white coffins bother the hell out of me.

I don't have the solution.  Maybe some of the things suggested might not work.  Fucking try?  JUST TRY MAKING IT A LITTLE BIT HARDER FOR NUTTERS TO GET HOLD OF THESE WEAPONS!

Do nothing and the past will keep repeating.  Any potential nutjob  in the making already knows how to go out with a bang.  They know already  who to target to make 'world' news? 

Or just don't bother.  Keep your kids as sitting ducks.  Then whine again about your rights every time it happens.  If it hasn't already, it will soon become less shocking.  Hurt less.  You could even extend your 'rights for all' to kids themselves!  Opportunity knocks for someone to design a nice lightweight weapon to fit in a school satchel. 

My answer to you is about as respectful as your questions to me.   Still happy to talk to Rage or Lit who have not asked silly questions.

A better solution is to treat the "nutters" before they shoot anyone. Rather than viewing them as evil, view them as sick. If you're looking to prevent school shootings, then take steps to prevent people from becoming school shooters. Stop bullying: 87% of school shooters were victims of bullying. Institute a system to allow for quick intervention if someone discusses a shooting. Fund more social workers in schools. These are all steps that could help. Ultimately, the problem isn't the guns; it's the people. Guns are just tools: they can be used for good or for evil, depending on the user.

If you think TA's trolling, even though he said otherwise, then believe so. However, I ask his question again: do you generally believe that it's better to be safe or to be free in areas where those values conflict? It seems like you have chosen safety over freedom. I would choose the opposite.

Source

[bodie]

If I was a lone thinker,  I would choose freedom over safety for myself.   I am a mother and would choose safety for my child.

I have already explained how my viewpoint has changed.  I don't even feel it was a choice.  More instinct.  I can't actually help it.

Now I have a kid to think about the whole damn sky could come crashing down and it would be cool as long as my kid was ok.

I am not even suggesting that everyone in America give up their arms.  I was suggesting that a percentage put up a brick wall around the issue.  Some not even willing to look at ideas to prevent these deaths.  My suggestion is you should try.

Your bullying idea is worth further investigation.

[TheoK]

Semicolon is right, but, like someone said on a Swedish board about this matter: the politicians don't do what's the most reasonable thing to do. They do what the majority thinks is right, which in this case is wrong, beacuse the majority in Europe is brainwashed by antigun propaganda.

There are shootings almost every week in Göteborg, the second largest city in Sweden. The shooters are in principle 100% immigrants with illegal guns. What do the dumbfuck politicians suggest should be done about it? More restrictions on legal guns! 

[RageBeoulve]

So I think the key issue here is CRIME CONTROL. Not gun control. Right?

[TheoK]

So I think the key issue here is CRIME CONTROL. Not gun control. Right?

 

[RageBeoulve]

Any other solution proposals? Pyraxis asked some valid questions, which lead to me saying that anyone who wants a gun should be trained to use it by military cadre.

Anything more to add?

[Semicolon]

So I think the key issue here is CRIME CONTROL. Not gun control. Right?

 

[RageBeoulve]

Any other solution proposals? Pyraxis asked some valid questions, which lead to me saying that anyone who wants a gun should be trained to use it by military cadre.

Anything more to add?

Just wanted to add a little bonus to this. Usually one would use deadly force against a fellow human being when they feel their lives or the lives of their loved ones are in danger, right? Would it not be a plus if everyone packing was actually good at using a gun? I mean think about it, psycho shows up with a rifle, intends to kill a bunch of people. PROBLEM: About seven folks in there are packing, and were expertly trained by military cadre on a range in a classic setting.

Does the psycho or criminal stand much of a chance? Does this person stand more of a chance if nobody was armed, or the people that are have no idea what they are doing?


Just a thought.

[bodie]

The psycho gets taken out before he does a load of damage - yes i like that!

But, what if no one capable is there? 


Training is a good idea though.  Perhaps a psycho could be spotted also, during the procedure.

[RageBeoulve]

The psycho gets taken out before he does a load of damage - yes i like that!

But, what if no one capable is there? 


Training is a good idea though.  Perhaps a psycho could be spotted also, during the procedure.

Yes, good point. Not just gun safety, but safety in general. Make individuals responsible for their own security instead of forcing everyone but government officials to be "dependent".

Envision a bank. A thief comes in with a gun. Like seven people are armed with pistols. The thief proceeds to rob the bank, and shoots the clerk in the head. Everyone stands around with a pistol in their hand, picking their asses with the other.

Someone is startled when the thief kills the cashier and flinches, accidentally pulling the trigger of their own pistol and shooting themselves in the foot. Everyone else reacts blindly shooting at everything that moves. The thief begins skillfully shooting everyone in the bank to save their own life. People die.

Indeed. There is a fundamental problem with big government, and placid citizens.

[Adam]

Read a history book, man.

I have a history diploma and have read literally hundreds of history books, but thanks for the suggestion

[RageBeoulve]

Read a history book, man.

I have a history diploma and have read literally hundreds of history books, but thanks for the suggestion

Could have fooled me. You're welcome. 

I don't want to push too hard here, but you could really say something like, "Ok dude, I was wrong. Thanks for teaching me about that." So I know that perhaps an understanding has been reached, and the debate was successful.

Alternatively, you could still have an opposing view. In which case you could say, "I disagree Rage, and let me tell you why...", then go on to explain why my viewpoint is incorrect.

Just a suggestion.

[Jesse]

In other news, the earth wants to inact legislation from the milky way to enable hoodlum rogue elements out in space otherwise known as asteroids, to please get a life. hitting innocent planetary bodies without the right documentation is, well. a scandal