Socialism questions and hypothesis.

[Scrapheap]

  I will guarantee that the UK is more corrupt.  And better at hiding it.

You have no way of proving that. 

We here in the US look at Mexico as being corrupt. Yet America is by far more corrupt. 

Can't agree. The US is corrupt for sure, but Medicho is much MUCH worse because they've had single party rule for decades.

[McGiver]

Reason for yourself, scrap.

[McGiver]

Can't agree. The US is corrupt for sure, but Medicho is much MUCH worse because they've had single party rule for decades.

Keep believing that we are the pure city on the hill.  The "official story" is easier to accept.

[Scrapheap]

Can't agree. The US is corrupt for sure, but Medicho is much MUCH worse because they've had single party rule for decades.

Keep believing that we are the pure city on the hill.  The "official story" is easier to accept.

What part of The US is corrupt for sure did you miss??

[McGiver]

I cannot help you until you learn to admit that you have a problem.  Simply stating that others have a bigger problem is self enabling.

[Peter]

Hard to say. Russia was first an Empire and then a "communist" dictatorship. They have no tradition of control of the authorities so that they don't abuse their power. Italy and Greece are old culturally but young as modern states. Something similar there.

So the culture that existed within government bureaucracies was broken then.

I still think that that's the key to neutralize corruption.

There has to be a culture that discourages it.

This article gives a really good insight into how culture enables corruption.  I've copy-pasted some of the more relevant bits:

The tsunami of cheap credit that rolled across the planet between 2002 and 2007 has just now created a new opportunity for travel: financial-disaster tourism. The credit wasn’t just money, it was temptation. It offered entire societies the chance to reveal aspects of their characters they could not normally afford to indulge. Entire countries were told, “The lights are out, you can do whatever you want to do and no one will ever know.” What they wanted to do with money in the dark varied. Americans wanted to own homes far larger than they could afford, and to allow the strong to exploit the weak. Icelanders wanted to stop fishing and become investment bankers, and to allow their alpha males to reveal a theretofore suppressed megalomania. The Germans wanted to be even more German; the Irish wanted to stop being Irish. All these different societies were touched by the same event, but each responded to it in its own peculiar way. No response was as peculiar as the Greeks’, however: anyone who had spent even a few days talking to people in charge of the place could see that. But to see just how peculiar it was, you had to come to this monastery.

...

As it turned out, what the Greeks wanted to do, once the lights went out and they were alone in the dark with a pile of borrowed money, was turn their government into a piñata stuffed with fantastic sums and give as many citizens as possible a whack at it.

...


Where waste ends and theft begins almost doesn’t matter; the one masks and thus enables the other. It’s simply assumed, for instance, that anyone who is working for the government is meant to be bribed. People who go to public health clinics assume they will need to bribe doctors to actually take care of them. Government ministers who have spent their lives in public service emerge from office able to afford multi-million-dollar mansions and two or three country homes.

...


By the final day of discovery, after the last little hand had gone up in the back of the room, a projected deficit of roughly 7 billion euros was actually more than 30 billion. The natural question—How is this possible?—is easily answered: until that moment, no one had bothered to count it all up. “We had no Congressional Budget Office,” explains the finance minister. “There was no independent statistical service.” The party in power simply gins up whatever numbers it likes, for its own purposes.

...

As he finishes his story the finance minister stresses that this isn’t a simple matter of the government lying about its expenditures. “This wasn’t all due to misreporting,” he says. “In 2009, tax collection disintegrated, because it was an election year.”

“What?”

He smiles.

“The first thing a government does in an election year is to pull the tax collectors off the streets.”

“You’re kidding.”

Now he’s laughing at me. I’m clearly naïve.

...

Tax Collector No. 1—early 60s, business suit, tightly wound but not obviously nervous—arrived with a notebook filled with ideas for fixing the Greek tax-collection agency. He just took it for granted that I knew that the only Greeks who paid their taxes were the ones who could not avoid doing so—the salaried employees of corporations, who had their taxes withheld from their paychecks. The vast economy of self-employed workers—everyone from doctors to the guys who ran the kiosks that sold the International Herald Tribune—cheated (one big reason why Greece has the highest percentage of self-employed workers of any European country). “It’s become a cultural trait,” he said. “The Greek people never learned to pay their taxes. And they never did because no one is punished. No one has ever been punished. It’s a cavalier offense—like a gentleman not opening a door for a lady.”

The scale of Greek tax cheating was at least as incredible as its scope: an estimated two-thirds of Greek doctors reported incomes under 12,000 euros a year—which meant, because incomes below that amount weren’t taxable, that even plastic surgeons making millions a year paid no tax at all. The problem wasn’t the law—there was a law on the books that made it a jailable offense to cheat the government out of more than 150,000 euros—but its enforcement. “If the law was enforced,” the tax collector said, “every doctor in Greece would be in jail.” I laughed, and he gave me a stare. “I am completely serious.” One reason no one is ever prosecuted—apart from the fact that prosecution would seem arbitrary, as everyone is doing it—is that the Greek courts take up to 15 years to resolve tax cases. “The one who does not want to pay, and who gets caught, just goes to court,” he says. Somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of the activity in the Greek economy that might be subject to the income tax goes officially unrecorded, he says, compared with an average of about 18 percent in the rest of Europe.

...

Astonishingly, it’s widely believed that all 300 members of the Greek Parliament declare the real value of their houses to be the computer-generated objective value. Or, as both the tax collector and a local real-estate agent put it to me, “every single member of the Greek Parliament is lying to evade taxes.”

On he went, describing a system that was, in its way, a thing of beauty. It mimicked the tax-collecting systems of an advanced economy—and employed a huge number of tax collectors—while it was in fact rigged to enable an entire society to cheat on their taxes. As he rose to leave, he pointed out that the waitress at the swanky tourist hotel failed to provide us with a receipt for our coffees. “There’s a reason for that,” he said. “Even this hotel doesn’t pay the sales tax it owes.”

The Greek state was not just corrupt but also corrupting. Once you saw how it worked you could understand a phenomenon which otherwise made no sense at all: the difficulty Greek people have saying a kind word about one another. Individual Greeks are delightful: funny, warm, smart, and good company. I left two dozen interviews saying to myself, “What great people!” They do not share the sentiment about one another: the hardest thing to do in Greece is to get one Greek to compliment another behind his back. No success of any kind is regarded without suspicion. Everyone is pretty sure everyone is cheating on his taxes, or bribing politicians, or taking bribes, or lying about the value of his real estate. And this total absence of faith in one another is self-reinforcing. The epidemic of lying and cheating and stealing makes any sort of civic life impossible; the collapse of civic life only encourages more lying, cheating, and stealing. Lacking faith in one another, they fall back on themselves and their families.

The structure of the Greek economy is collectivist, but the country, in spirit, is the opposite of a collective. Its real structure is every man for himself. Into this system investors had poured hundreds of billions of dollars. And the credit boom had pushed the country over the edge, into total moral collapse.

[bodie]

My hypothesis is that since many European governments are former kingdoms that have democratized, that a different culture existed within bureaucracies. Because kings would lay the smack down on a minister that wasn't doing their job, a culture of accountability emerged that never made it to the US.

It may have worked like this,  but not always.   Very often the greedy gutsy pig would be at the top.  Corruption trickles down.  The people get fleeced.  Why do you think the French killed their royal family?

Not all European countries are equal.  Italy and Greece are rife with corruption, while in the UK, we recently crucified our politicians for fiddling mere tens of thousands of pounds out of their parliamentary expenses accounts, with 6 of them serving prison sentences for it.  In places like Italy and Greece, corruption is just a way of life that everyone accepts, but here in the UK, you'd better keep quiet about it or we'll come after you with pitchforks.  We also probably have less money sloshing around the system than the US, and possibly better accounting since it's not spread out over so many different jurisdictions, so people have less incentive to fiddle the system, more chance of getting caught and more chance of getting pitchforked when they get caught.

  Now this is interesting.  The terminology.  What do you call it when a person takes money he shouldn't have?  It's called 'stealing'  right?  but not when you are a politician,  no,  it is called 'an expense scandal'!!

Some of these politicians claimed hundreds of thousands of pounds!   One of them claimed to 'have their moat cleaned'  ffs     If a rioter takes a fifty quid pair of trainers out of a shop window he risks prison.   Someone who steals thousands from the treasury surely ought to face prison too?  Why were they pitchforked?

You see scrappy,  the UK is corrupt,  not sure if it is as corrupt as the states.  You see if you steal and you happen to be wearing a suit and have a decent job and salary then it is somehow not the same as being jobless and skint and opportunist stealing something out of a shop window?   Which one is worst?

Just to be clear, my own personal perspective is that politicians should neither be made examples of, nor should they get away with anything when they break the law.  My opinion of the two examples above are that they are both thieves.  The difference between them being one was very greedy.

[McGiver]

What is the definition of corruption, indeed.
Crony capitalism....giving over meant contracts or writing specific laws which help a donor get richer....is what I consider the most scandalous type of corruption.

Theories, like trickle down economics, is a scam.  It is meant to redistribute wealth, nothing more nothing less.  This is corruption.

[TheoK]

No wonder Greece is about to collapse 

[RageBeoulve]

Trickle down economics is satan.

[Al Swearegen]

My hypothesis is that since many European governments are former kingdoms that have democratized, that a different culture existed within bureaucracies. Because kings would lay the smack down on a minister that wasn't doing their job, a culture of accountability emerged that never made it to the US.

It may have worked like this,  but not always.   Very often the greedy gutsy pig would be at the top.  Corruption trickles down.  The people get fleeced.  Why do you think the French killed their royal family?

Yes Marie Antoinette was so far removed from reality, that when the maddened crowd were screaming for food she said they should eat broiche

[Peter]

A bit of history to explain how something like the Greek situation arises:

How did the Greek state become a bloated, corrupt monster, the Jabba the Hutt of the EU's Mediterranean fringe?

The roots of the problem reach back to Greece's Ottoman era, from the 15th century to the beginning of the 19th. As an occupied people, the Greeks naturally resisted paying taxes; indeed it became a patriotic duty. To some degree, that mentality still exists, as it does in other countries, such as Italy, that have spent centuries under unwanted foreign rulers.

After achieving statehood in 1821, Greece was too poor to build a big bureaucracy. Then the country suffered enormously under German occupation in the Second World War, and after the war, Greece was torn apart again by a civil war between communists and right-wing forces (the former lost). Then came a coup d'état and military rule.

In 1974 democracy was restored, and that's when the government hiring spree commenced. Under various populist leaders, government agencies opened their doors wide - too wide, with jobs being traded for votes. By 1980, there were about 500,000 civil servants.

That number has since doubled, with much of the hiring in the go-go years of the last decade, when euro-zone membership gave Greece cheap credit, a stable currency, low inflation and the illusion of wealth.

Stefanos Manos, the finance minister in the early 1990s, recalls that salaries in the public railway company vastly exceeded its revenues. The state would have saved money if it had closed the rail system and given everyone cab chits.

Konstantinos Katsigiannis, an Athens attorney who is president of the Canadian-Hellenic Chamber of Commerce, says the civil service became arrogant and corrosive as it expanded. Starting a company or building a project can be a nightmare because of the endless paperwork, permits and kickbacks. A Canadian diplomat tells the story of a friend who built a resort on an island: It took 10 years and required 6,000 bureaucratic signatures.

[RageBeoulve]

Can't agree. The US is corrupt for sure, but Medicho is much MUCH worse because they've had single party rule for decades.

Keep believing that we are the pure city on the hill.  The "official story" is easier to accept.

What part of The US is corrupt for sure did you miss??

None. All americans have it rammed up their asses and out their mouths from birth now. Have for a long time.

[ZEGH8578]

We take for granted that nation-states are permament, fixed entities that will always stick around. We almost imagine that with Greece gone, there would be a hole in the map. There wouldn't.
That's why I like to toy with maps, such as the America map I re-drew.

Countries come and go. In their voids are left the people, of which countries are made. People come and go too.
What is a government? From one decade, to the next, a given government may have changed every single employee, but still attempt to represent the same ruling party.
What are the rules?
How are they upheld?

What I'm trying to say is - those who rule, and relate to rulers, must be very concious what it takes to rule. That is why incompetent rulers typically end up with riots and civil war, because they forget that they have to actually, physically, have the country administered to.
The country exists for a single reason: The people in it.

Capitalism is the worst kind of government, because it's nothing but a business idea: to make the state earn your money for you (instead of doing what it's supposed to do, earn for the community)
Capitalism is also without scruples, so it will buy advertisement time, it will own entertainment industry, it will own news and information, and so it will simply advertise for itself and its benefits to the voters, who will give it an easy time, and poof, all of the west turns capitalist.
And if anybody objects, tv, movies, series, comedies, and ads will tell everyone otherwise, and keep them voting for more capitalism. In true form, capitalism does not care about the country, and it will end with economic breakdown, riots, the rich hide in their bunkers or flee to Argentina, and wars erupt.

*The only reason for voting for capitalism are the following:
1) Naive wishful thinking - "I hope to be super-duper rich some day! I have to vote for a system that will be kind to me. Untill then, I hope I can afford noodles. HI FIVE!"
2) Complete stupidity - "De man onna TV tol me 2 voat for him :0 He had a nice pant!"
3) Pure sadism - "I fully realize this will turn into economic breakdown, and ruin it for everyone. But I'm an asshole."

*Assuming you are not rich.

The opposite, be it Communism or hardcore Nationalism, none are good. Both communist and nationalist tend to be very flippant about mass killing. We need to learn... we really need to... STOP KILLING PEOPLE SO FLIPPANTLY. My god... all the time "we must blame the jews!" "eh... there's ONE or TWO jewish banker families, mein führer. Are you sure we should blame them all?"
"YES! ALL OF ZEM! KILL ZEM ALL!!!!"
always always always with the fucking killing. Communists too, I'm looking at you Pol Pot. Hell, even Vietnam had enough with Pol Pot, invaded, and were recieved as heroes. A very obscure chapter in the aftermath of the Vietnam War.

The best solution is: Scandinavia. Combine a modest share of capitalism, so to encourage entrepreneurism, with socialism - to preserve society in a humane manner.

As for the immigration problems in Scandinavia, WE SHOULD BLAME AND KILL ALL IMMIGRANTS - is what people are thinking. No.

We should accept immigrants, but we should DO SO RESPONSIBLY, which has not yet been done, for even five minutes. That means: Integration. They don't want to? Well tough luck, have fun on your trip back to fuckin Darfur. Hope you ate before you left, cus you aint gonna be eating ever again.
Seriousness.
They should know what kind of task they have taken on. Integrate, by fucking force if necesary, but do it, and do it right. Once they are integrated, they are just another Finn, Dane or Norwegian with black hair. Loki had black hair.

ANY problem foreseen "yes but you underestimate the power of islam - " integrate. "Yes but in some cultures - " integrate. Integrate integrate integrate. Fuck it - make Integration Camps.

[TheoK]