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Offline Queen Victoria

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #855 on: September 23, 2014, 11:16:48 PM »
The history of marriage would be an interesting book.  I'm betting in Roman, Greek and similar cultures marriage was more of a quasi religious/public ceremony.  The Catholics made it a sacrament.  During the Middle Ages it wasn't uncommon for a couple not to marry until it could be proven that a successful pregnancy could occur.  A childless marriage was a disaster.  But once the baby was born, the marriage took place. 

I rather like the idea of a civil union with a marriage at City Hall.  A religious marriage ceremony could follow at a place of worship.  The civil union would be the binding one for any future litigation, rights, etc.

PA and I have said that in the unlikely event the PR would fall in love and want to be married, we would arrange for a religious blessing only.  This would keep both parties eligible for government benefits while giving them a sense of a wedding and such.
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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #856 on: September 23, 2014, 11:46:19 PM »
The history of marriage would be an interesting book.  I'm betting in Roman, Greek and similar cultures marriage was more of a quasi religious/public ceremony.  The Catholics made it a sacrament.  During the Middle Ages it wasn't uncommon for a couple not to marry until it could be proven that a successful pregnancy could occur. A childless marriage was a disaster.  But once the baby was born, the marriage took place. 

I rather like the idea of a civil union with a marriage at City Hall.  A religious marriage ceremony could follow at a place of worship.  The civil union would be the binding one for any future litigation, rights, etc.

PA and I have said that in the unlikely event the PR would fall in love and want to be married, we would arrange for a religious blessing only.  This would keep both parties eligible for government benefits while giving them a sense of a wedding and such.

Some secluded groups still honour that rule. With weird happenings around it. There is one particular bible belt place, not to far from here, were they do. But, their version of religion makes sex before marriage a sin. So, quite a few couples have to make an official confession, about having sinned, before they can marry in church. And everyone is happy to know this is a fertile union. Very twisted.
My ex went to school with lots of kids from there. Some girls were so desperate to get pregnant that marriage could only take place after the child was born, and the father found by bloodwork.
Times are changing rapidly though, even in Staphorst.
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Offline bodie

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #857 on: September 24, 2014, 03:42:36 AM »
Gretna Green in Scotland is the only place, i know of where you can get married at 16 years old without consent of parents.  It has been performing shotgun weddings and forbidden weddings for 300+ years.  Gretna lies a little way over the Scottish border and it has been as popular with the English as it is with the Scottish.

You give them three weeks notice.  They print wedding details in their local paper inviting anyone who knows of any lawful impediment why the couple cannot marry to come forward.  It is not asked at the ceremony.  The newspaper is not widely available, it is just a very small village paper.  Therefore, unlikely to alert forbidding parents of the bride and grooms intentions.  The wedding ceremony is performed at the old Blacksmiths and couples with no witnesses are still welcome and it is common to ask passers by to act as a witness. 


Actually there are other places in Scotland to get wed at 16 lawfully,  but finding someone to do this is virtually impossible, except for Gretna Green.

Lurch's daughter is planning a trip to Scotland at the end of Februalry when she turns 16.   The recent events in her life have really cemented her firmly to her boyfriend.  She ran away from the centre to be with him.  They have been working in a bar and living in the flat above for about 8 weeks now.  Her POV is such that 'Andre' is the only worthy relationship she has in Spain.  Her mothers abandonment,  and then being sent to a juvenile centre has meant that this Andre has really been the only person to stand by her.  He has.  He has given up everything to be with her and go out of Andalusia.  In Spain they have a local police called the Guadia Civil and the national police called  Policia Nacional.  It is the Guadia in Andalusia that are looking for her!  She has not committed any crime but they look for her because she is a minor that has escaped from a childrens home.  She has no worries with the Guardia in the place where she is,  nor the Policia and they often come into the bar where she works.

If Lurch could have gone to Spain eight weeks ago to bring her back to England then he might have been able to prize her away from this 'Andre'.  The two things that prevented that  a) her mother holds her passport   b) the authorities removed parental responsibility from the mother due to abandonment and Lurch also just because he was absent.    As it stands,  some things cannot be undone.  She will not leave Spain without him.  Whatever the circumstances when she leaves Spain  Andre will be in hot persuit!

To further complicate matters,  the age of consent in Spain is unbelievably 13  years old.   It is ironic that they have done nothing wrong in Spanish law, but the minute they arrive here in England their union is unlawful until she is 16 years old, which is February.

I have had to secure a temporary place for Andre to stay at, nearby.  I have done this and explained to Andre the situation and that we will endeavour to accept him, and assist him to find work on one condition.  He must encourage her to attend the college I have spoken to.  She is a clever girl,  speaks both English and Spanish fluently.  She was doing well at school but has not attended for several months and there was no room for her in school at the centre in Spain.   

Her plans are, or were,  to come to England with Andre in tow and wait until her sixteenth birthday.  She could marry in England with Lurch's consent.  Failing that she could cross the Scottish border and marry in Gretna without.  Then, they plan to return to Spain as a married couple which would mean the juvenile centre would no longer require her presence.  They could return to his family and live and work without fear of the Guadia.

Lurch is aware of all this but is struggling to accept the biggest issue which is his daughter is no longer a little girl in pigtails.  I understand all of this.  His POV and her POV and am trying to secure a good outcome, acceptable to all.   Realising Andre is a big key in all of this I have secured his word on the following:   he comes to England but stays at a different address until she is 16,  he encourages her to attend a course at the college which is a special course they run for 16-18 year olds who have had a disrupted education for 6 months and I have said that if they feel the same at the end of the 6 months Lurch will give them permission to marry and they can return to Spain as and when they wish.

I have done this to give her the opportunity to be a 15/16 year old again.  I realise the events in her life cannot be undone but want to see how she feels given the opportunity to meet and study with kids her own age.  Futile, perhaps but worth a try.  I know that if i had married the person i was dating at 16 then it would have been a mistake, but i also know that if i had wanted that, then i would not be told otherwise.  I remember being a 15 year old and much older in my head than my folks wanted.

The possibility of outcomes to all of this is endless.   I realise also this a crossroads for me too.  I could really take a back seat, remain as i have been and just say  "well, she is YOUR daughter"    However, not really sure how all this means for me I know there is nothing in me that wants to do this.   I want this girl to be happy!  She has really had some injustices bestowed on her!  The Spanish authorities have treated her terribly.  I have identified several of her human rights they have violated.  Her mum not only abandoned her but chose her new boyfriend over her when he hit her, then tried to say she was a nutter,  that she needs locking up until 18.  Truth is they were unable to dx her with anything.   I have not detected any mental impairment but i have observed her anxiety (understandably) and she is in panic mode when any suggestion of seperating her from Andre is made.  She is insecure.  She has asked me about any young ladies living around here and she is worried in case they try to chat up Andre!  She has low self esteem, when i asked her what job she really wanted to do she replied  "cleaning or bar work"  not that anything is wrong with that i have done bar work myself but she could aim so much higher.  No, there is nothing in me that wants to walk away from this girl. 
blah blah blah

Offline Semicolon

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #858 on: September 24, 2014, 07:02:47 AM »
How will she get into the UK if she doesn't have a passport and she's wanted by the police? Or is that not the sort of thing that you'd post on a public forum? :GA:
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Offline bodie

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #859 on: September 24, 2014, 08:02:51 AM »
No, that is the reason this is taking so long,  the Spanish are just waiting on social workers assessment.  The social workers are inundated with cases deemed urgent and we have to wait.  They are keen to get rid of her now.  She was not at all co operative while she was there.  There is also an investigation into their actions (they should have made more effort to locate Lurch and also they could have contacted him if they had listened to Wednesday as she requested)   The investigation is by the Ombudsman who reports directly to Central Government, and we requested it.  His name is Jesus  (i found Jesus lol) and he is our surprise ally.   He has the power to restore PR to Lurch if he feels a government enquiry is necessary.  However his work is thorough and likely to take some time.  Whichever comes first,  the social worker's report or maybe Jesus.

Once Lurch has his PR restored he can then take his daughter from control of the Spanish Authorities.  It is possible that the Embassy may issue emergency documents for her to fly home.  Not sure if they will, but we know they can.   

Or, we can apply for a new passport for her, saying the old one is lost and it would eventually go through as long as he has his PR restored.

It is a big mess and the reason i said i was engaging in a war with Spain.

blah blah blah

Offline bodie

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #860 on: September 24, 2014, 08:12:00 AM »
Obviously there are ways to get people into the UK without passports,  it goes on all the time.    I might not always observe the law to the letter but anything to do with kids has to be legit and squeeky clean.

If she was really on the streets and alone then we would be thinking of desperate measures.
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #861 on: September 24, 2014, 11:51:25 AM »
Wishing all of you good luck.

I hope with you that Wednesday decides to postpone her marriage with a couple of years. And that you and Lurch can make her feel that she will be welcome, whatever matters. A marriage this young may work, but it may also end in drama.

That 13 yo marriage, for girls, with consenting parents is such a scary concept. Gave me the shivers when I read that a while ago.
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Offline bodie

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #862 on: September 24, 2014, 01:45:40 PM »
Thanks Hyke.   We will be making her welcome.  We are hoping she (or they) will want to stay in England, that would remove the need for them to be married.   I am hoping that she will make some friends here and possibly see that there is more to life.

It would be too cruel to try and separate them, now.   She has made it clear that he is 'not negotiable' so best to let it run it's course.  If it ends, it ends but best to end naturally.   His family have been good to her.  Up until when the Police came and removed her back to the centre which led them both to get out of dodge they had been feeding her and treating her as one of their own.  Andre's mum tried to see Wednesday's mom and see if she could make some peace and try to be friendly but she got the door slammed in her face then falsely accused of stealing from the home.

The Montague's and The Capulet's of Spain!!  although no tragedy at the end i hope.

Therefore I feel we should be as hospitable as we can to Andre. 

There are many possible conclusions.  We have to remember that although she is English, her folks are English,  she holds a British Passport but she has lived in Spain since she was 6 or 7.  She is very Spanish    I hope we can make her feel like this is her home now.  We will see.  The road is long....
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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #863 on: September 24, 2014, 06:52:23 PM »
Common law marriage does seem like a fundie plot.

I don't know about other countries, but I think in the US it's completely voluntary and more about having some of the legal benefit of marriage without any of the formality.  :dunno:
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Offline Semicolon

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #864 on: September 24, 2014, 06:56:33 PM »
Obviously there are ways to get people into the UK without passports,  it goes on all the time.    I might not always observe the law to the letter but anything to do with kids has to be legit and squeeky clean.

If she was really on the streets and alone then we would be thinking of desperate measures.

It seems like it would be difficult, as Great Britain is an island. :pirateship:

Common law marriage does seem like a fundie plot.

I don't know about other countries, but I think in the US it's completely voluntary and more about having some of the legal benefit of marriage without any of the formality.  :dunno:

:indeed:
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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #865 on: September 24, 2014, 07:07:27 PM »
Common law marriage does seem like a fundie plot.

I don't know about other countries, but I think in the US it's completely voluntary and more about having some of the legal benefit of marriage without any of the formality.  :dunno:

:indeed:

It's like the anti-fundie plot.  :lol1:
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Offline bodie

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #866 on: September 25, 2014, 12:43:34 AM »
We do have common-law-marriage in England!

It is an anti chav tool for government and stops people from claiming benefit individually if they are living together.  You get less money as a couple on the dole you see.

Wedding list  =  poundland
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Offline bodie

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #867 on: September 25, 2014, 12:48:14 AM »
Obviously there are ways to get people into the UK without passports,  it goes on all the time.    I might not always observe the law to the letter but anything to do with kids has to be legit and squeeky clean.

If she was really on the streets and alone then we would be thinking of desperate measures.

It seems like it would be difficult, as Great Britain is an island. :pirateship:

Common law marriage does seem like a fundie plot.

I don't know about other countries, but I think in the US it's completely voluntary and more about having some of the legal benefit of marriage without any of the formality.  :dunno:

:indeed:


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(that is not a euphemism )
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #868 on: September 25, 2014, 03:21:16 AM »
Bodie, did you have to show your passport every time you went to and from the continent?

I think the last time I had to prove my identity at a border was when I went to the GDR and back.

Maybe I did kinda flash it when going to the UK, but if I did, it was not looked at properly. Most borders in Europe can be crossed without a problem.


Most scrutinising of passport/ID card happens because of bureaucracy inside my country. Having and carrying an official ID is imperative here from age 14 on. It's a nuisance, but what can you do?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 03:26:04 AM by hykeaswell »
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Re: Ask bodie about her bitties.
« Reply #869 on: September 25, 2014, 05:00:35 AM »
We do have common-law-marriage in England!

It is an anti chav tool for government and stops people from claiming benefit individually if they are living together.  You get less money as a couple on the dole you see.

Wedding list  =  poundland

Apparently, it's only an idiom. Link
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